Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on December 01, 2014, 08:51:24 pm
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Been a bit of a political flap going on this last weekend.
Last week, there was a poll conducted in a Doncaster North, by Lord Ashcroft (the multi-billionaire tax-dodger who spends millions conducting polls on marginals to help the Tories target their election resources).
Anyway, Ashcroft's massive finding was that Miliband was in trouble. UKIP had surged. Labour's vote was down on 2010. UKIP were only 12% behind Labour, with a big Tory vote to squeeze. Looked like this was a chance for a big scalp for Farage. Queue loads of "Miliband in Trouble" headlines and much froth in the Twittersphere.
Turns out it was all b*llocks. The man who can pay people a fortune to do clever sums so he doesn't have to pay any tax, clearly doesn't pay his polling staff very much. Because they had factored the numbers all wrong. When they've re-done them today, it turns out Miliband's vote is up by nearly 8% on 2010, and he's 30% ahead of UKIP.
Miliband will win Doncaster North by a street. But I'll guarantee you that there will be loads of people who have read the papers this weekend, who think that he is in deep, deep trouble.
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The wrong figures will have sowed a seed in the waverers mind, they'll think UKIP will win the seat and may vote for them
P.S. Our UKIP champion Mick has been missing for nearly a month now, has Farage ordered the repatriation of descendants of Irish immigrants :)
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He'll be back with another identity soon enough.
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I think it's a measure of the situation that the best labour news recently has been this, little talk of breakthrough or policy but simply just staying in the game in one of the safest seats they have according to this poll.
All the majour parties have problems at the moment, nobody is really doing well.
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Labour seem a shambles to me at the minute. I think their problems stem simply from the lack of belief in their leader by the party.
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Gaz
I'm genuinely interested in what you think the problem with Miliband is.
Seems to me that he's made the political weather throughout this Parliament.
He led the political attack on the tabloids in Hackgate
He's raised the issue of energy price rises outstripping gas costs
He's raised the issue about underfunding of the NHS
He's raised the issue of the fact that the proceeds of growth are going disproportionately to the wealthy.
On every one of those issues, he's led the agenda and had the Tories trailing behind, coming up with policies to answer the agenda. And yet, apparently, he's a crap political leader. I'm genuinely interested in why people think that.
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Gaz
I'm genuinely interested in what you think the problem with Miliband is.
Seems to me that he's made the political weather throughout this Parliament.
He led the political attack on the tabloids in Hackgate
He's raised the issue of energy price rises outstripping gas costs
He's raised the issue about underfunding of the NHS
He's raised the issue of the fact that the proceeds of growth are going disproportionately to the wealthy.
On every one of those issues, he's led the agenda and had the Tories trailing behind, coming up with policies to answer the agenda. And yet, apparently, he's a crap political leader. I'm genuinely interested in why people think that.
Because in the shallow times in which we live, image and style are more important than substance. It's only a matter of time before politics is completely reduced to the X Factor.
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Regarding the media reporting of Ashcroft's wrong poll, it's no surprise that the Mail weighed in.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2855461/ANDREW-PIERCE-Clegg-Red-Ed-ex-MPs.html
That post, to be fair, was written before Ashcroft admitted hm that his staff can't add up. But the Mail article was updated this morning and there is not a word about the actual numbers.
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Ed Miliband is not proving very popular, he isn't winning peoples trust.
It isn't so much his policies.
I think he doesn't come across well enough on TV. He looks very youthful, I know all political leaders these days are much younger but Ed looks like the head boy. I don't think he looks like he has the experience required to sort the economy out. He's lacking character and charisma.
I just don't think people see him as Prime Minister material.
That said despite all that he still might make it into office.
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Because in the shallow times in which we live, image and style are more important than substance. It's only a matter of time before politics is completely reduced to the X Factor.
Nail on head I'm afraid to say.
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In lots of ways a general election is just a popularity contest now.
We live in an image driven world.
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I find it so sad that far too many people seem to think the way Ed eats a bacon butty is more important than working hard for the country.
I find it amazing that all the tories seem to be able to do to discredit him is take the piss out of the way he eats.
How many of you have seen the #cameronmustgo trend on twitter? We are on target for a million tweets by Saturday, This isn't a few 'lefties' having a lark, many of the tweets are heart rending, many extremely thought provoking.
Somehow I cannot ever see Ed Milliband sit and giggle with his coked up mate whilst listening to the true stories of hardship being read out by the opposition the way Cameron, Osbourne and IDS do every time Labour read out their constituents suffering.
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I find it so sad that far too many people seem to think the way Ed eats a bacon butty is more important than working hard for the country.
I find it amazing that all the tories seem to be able to do to discredit him is take the piss out of the way he eats.
How many of you have seen the #cameronmustgo trend on twitter? We are on target for a million tweets by Saturday, This isn't a few 'lefties' having a lark, many of the tweets are heart rending, many extremely thought provoking.
Somehow I cannot ever see Ed Milliband sit and giggle with his coked up mate whilst listening to the true stories of hardship being read out by the opposition the way Cameron, Osbourne and IDS do every time Labour read out their constituents suffering.
Don't forget the ridiculously desperate hatchet job the Tory press (the Mail, I think?) did on his Dad as a means of trying to smear him by association. Disgusting, but indicative of the depths they'll stoop to.
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I've said before that Churchill would be crucified by today's media. Racist, sexist, alcoholic, manic depressive and a face like a smacked arse.
Thank God we didn't have Trevor Kavanagh and Paul Dacre in 1940.
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He wouldn't be if he did what the newspaper owners wanted him to do. That's how it works.
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It's fascinating that the complaints seem to be entirely about image.
There's some clever folk on here, and not one has so much as mentioned policy. It's a truly depressing thought.
Personally, I'd thought that people would have woken up to electing people based on how slick they are on TV, following the last election. Clegg was the darling who looked smooth and suave. Trouble was, he was also prepared to Dutch every principle to get into Govt.
Looks like I was too optimistic in people's ability to look beyond the facade.
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Glyn
I'm not sure how crucial the newspapers are these days but Tony Blair made sure he got Murdoch on his side.
BST
I think it is about image, I bet if you went out on the street and asked people to name a Labour policy they might be struggling. Perhaps some would mention the energy price freeze.
There is something about Ed that people don't like, a lot of opinion polls are saying that. MPs are saying people tell them they'd vote Labour but they don't like the leader.
Churchill liked the wireless, he knew it was his medium. I don't think he thought much of TV did he?
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Heard an interesting tale about Farage and his prospects in North Doncaster the other week.
Apparently, during the recent conference in September, Farage went on a bit of a tour of the area, in a factory or two, cafes ect. As part of the tour he has arranged for a over 45s snooker team to be in a local WMC in North Doncaster for a surprise lunchtime session and had a few quid put behind the bar to buy them a pint before he arrived.
So, Farage turns up (through the back entrance...which is bizarre considering he wants to park his tanks on the lawn...seems more guerrilla-esque to me?) and waltzes in bold as brass expecting to be welcomed with open arms, only for the old lads to put down their pints, pay for them and walk out leaving the berk stood in an empty boozer with his entourage. Seems they don't suffer fools gladly. Or Thatcherites.
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/03/leaving-labour-green-party-social-change
Views of a recent defector.
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Another middle class w**ker indulging his conscience instead of making the hard decisions. Reminds me of the comfortable middle class prof I know, lifelong Labour supporter who in 2010 voted LD "to teach Labour a lesson about Iraq". Good call. What he actually helped to do by "teaching Labour a lesson" was to bring in the Bedroom Tax and a tax cut for millionaires.
Now, split the vote on the Left by voting Green and you get another 5 years of Cameron and Osborne, quite possibly in coalition with Farage. But if it makes you feel good about yourself Mr Stein...
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Clegg was the darling who looked smooth and suave. Trouble was, he was also prepared to Dutch every principle to get into Govt.
From Private Eye.....
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The article about FIFA in the current issue is worth reading too.
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The latest piece of b*llocks from Farage is an absolute classic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-30370570
Damn those immigrants and all those cars they bring with them!
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Phew! Must've been a big influx of immigrants last week if the journey time went up from 3.5 hours to 6.25 hours with absolutely no warning.
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And surely Farage must be happy that they're all bypassing England and heading straight for Wales!!
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Here's what he said. "That is nothing to do with professionalism, what it does have to do with is a population that is going through the roof chiefly because of open-door immigration and the fact that the M4 is not as navigable as it used to be."
Thank goodness there are politicians around who are prepared to say it as it is. It's obvious that the roads are going to be busier if we allow millions of immigrants in. We don't ban them from driving you know. We are a densely populated island and our roads are too full in many parts of the UK. The main reason they are too full is because we have a lot of people using them. Allowing millions of immigrants into the country is obviously going to make matters worse.
The laughable thing about you lefties having a go at Nige is that you are are incapable of working out that the less people driving the less busy the roads will be, therefore journey times will be shorter. The more people driving, the longer journey times will be. Duh. Why are journey times increasing? Because more people are driving. Where have the vast bulk of these extra drivers come from? Foreign countries. Duh.
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@HAtraffic_yorks: M4 eastbound between J13 and J12 | Accident http://t.co/lQYxrUdu63
f**king immigrants ;)
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Would I be right, 1967, if I were to think that your view of those English people who choose to live overseas in other EU countries would all be scroungers, layabouts and good for nothings?
I'm asking as I'm contemplating doing that very thing. I'd hate to be conssidered a member of a group such as that you know.
Cheers
BobG
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Here's what he said. "That is nothing to do with professionalism, what it does have to do with is a population that is going through the roof chiefly because of open-door immigration and the fact that the M4 is not as navigable as it used to be."
Thank goodness there are politicians around who are prepared to say it as it is. It's obvious that the roads are going to be busier if we allow millions of immigrants in. We don't ban them from driving you know. We are a densely populated island and our roads are too full in many parts of the UK. The main reason they are too full is because we have a lot of people using them. Allowing millions of immigrants into the country is obviously going to make matters worse.
The laughable thing about you lefties having a go at Nige is that you are are incapable of working out that the less people driving the less busy the roads will be, therefore journey times will be shorter. The more people driving, the longer journey times will be. Duh. Why are journey times increasing? Because more people are driving. Where have the vast bulk of these extra drivers come from? Foreign countries. Duh.
And they all happened to be going to Wales at the same time as him and made him more than three hours late?? Duh.
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Would I be right, 1967, if I were to think that your view of those English people who choose to live overseas in other EU countries would all be scroungers, layabouts and good for nothings?
I'm asking as I'm contemplating doing that very thing. I'd hate to be conssidered a member of a group such as that you know.
Cheers
BobG
You'd be completely, utterly wrong. I can't for the life of me understand why you think I believe immigrants from other EU countries are scroungers, layabouts and good for nothings. I don't, and I have posted nothing that gives this impression. If you or anyone else can find where I've given this impression then I'd be grateful if you could copy and paste it. However I wouldn't bother looking as you'll be completely wasting your time.
So once again I will try and clarify my views. I believe the following:
Immigration is on balance, good for the country.
We need immigration to try and help solve the ticking time bomb that is an ageing population.
Nearly all immigrants come here to work not claim benefits.
Nearly all immigrants are thoroughly decent hard working people.
We should control the numbers coming in.
An open door policy is lunacy and puts increased strain on our infrastructure and public services.
I have no problem with you emigrating as long as the country you are going to is happy for you to come.
Other countries will not ban the British from coming if we pull out of the EU.
Other countries will not repatriate existing British people if we pull out of the EU.
Poor British people do not emigrate to other EU countries for a better life.
Millions of poor EU people come to Britain for a better life not because we need them but because we just let them in even if they are not the type of workers the economy needs.
Now I hope that clarifies where I'm coming from and I would appreciate it if you could do a little research into my views before labelling me in the disgraceful way that you have. If you are going to have a go at me then at least do me the favour of backing up what you say.
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Here's what he said. "That is nothing to do with professionalism, what it does have to do with is a population that is going through the roof chiefly because of open-door immigration and the fact that the M4 is not as navigable as it used to be."
Thank goodness there are politicians around who are prepared to say it as it is. It's obvious that the roads are going to be busier if we allow millions of immigrants in. We don't ban them from driving you know. We are a densely populated island and our roads are too full in many parts of the UK. The main reason they are too full is because we have a lot of people using them. Allowing millions of immigrants into the country is obviously going to make matters worse.
The laughable thing about you lefties having a go at Nige is that you are are incapable of working out that the less people driving the less busy the roads will be, therefore journey times will be shorter. The more people driving, the longer journey times will be. Duh. Why are journey times increasing? Because more people are driving. Where have the vast bulk of these extra drivers come from? Foreign countries. Duh.
And they all happened to be going to Wales at the same time as him and made him more than three hours late?? Duh.
Where did he say that? He didn't.
It is obvious that our roads are more congested than they otherwise would be if we hadn't had so much immigration in recent years. That's the point he was making. Why is it so hard for you politically correct lefties to understand this? It's quite a simple concept to understand if you have an ounce of intelligence.
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Someone with an ounce of intelligence would have known that the M4 was going to be like that and made allowances instead of pathetic excuses. And another person with an ounce of intelligence wouldn't swallow such a pathetic excuse.
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I'll have another go. Do you think Nige would have got there earlier if we hadn't allowed in millions of immigrants over recent years? Do you think our roads would be less congested if we hadn't allowed in millions of immigrants over recent years?
A simple yes or no will do.
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I'll have another go. Do you think Nige would have got there earlier if we hadn't allowed in millions of immigrants over recent years? Do you think our roads would be less congested if we hadn't allowed in millions of immigrants over recent years?
A simple yes or no will do.
No. Because 'Nige' is talking b*llocks.
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Sorry you got the answer wrong. The correct answer is yes. How anyone could get that one wrong is beyond me. The only possible reason I can come up with is that you just want to try and bash Nige whether what you are bashing him with makes any sense at all.
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Sorry you got the answer wrong. The correct answer is yes. How anyone could get that one wrong is beyond me. The only possible reason I can come up with is that you just want to try and bash Nige whether what you are bashing him with makes any sense at all.
No. I just used the information in Nige's direct quote. As you're so happy of telling everybody else, do a bit of research. It's all there for you, just do the maths and you'll see why Nige is talking b*llocks.
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That's stumped him. :D
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Hahaha. You do make me laugh. I've explained where Nige was coming from but once again you haven't understood me. You are so obsessed with bashing Nige that any sense of logic or reason goes straight out of the window.
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Use the figures Nige himself stated in his quote. All it takes is a bit of maths and you can see it's Nige that's chucking logic and reason out of the window, not me. It's all there on a plate for you. Unless, of course, Nige is lying..?
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Use the figures Nige himself stated in his quote. All it takes is a bit of maths and you can see it's Nige that's chucking logic and reason out of the window, not me. It's all there on a plate for you. Unless, of course, Nige is lying..?
Nige didn't use any immigration figures in his quote.
Look its very simple. It takes longer to get from A to B in our country because there are more road users than there used to be and this is caused in part by uncontrolled immigration.
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Mick, all these immigrants, why are they driving on the M4 on a Friday evening? Where are they going?
As someone who lives a lot closer to the M4 than you do I can tell you - they are rich commuters who work and live in London and the Thames Valley during the week and then go to their second home in the Brecon Beacons, Gower Peninsula, Somerset, Wiltshire & Gloucestershire for the weekend. The only way immigration has any effect is that whatever job these people do having more people to do it for has made them very rich hence them being able to afford more than one home when there is a percentage of our society who dont even have one.
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Use the figures Nige himself stated in his quote. All it takes is a bit of maths and you can see it's Nige that's chucking logic and reason out of the window, not me. It's all there on a plate for you. Unless, of course, Nige is lying..?
Nige didn't use any immigration figures in his quote.
Look its very simple. It takes longer to get from A to B in our country because there are more road users than there used to be and this is caused in part by uncontrolled immigration.
You don't need any immigration figures to know how much crap Nige is spouting. For someone who reminds us on every possible occasion of your supposed superior intelligence, I can't believe how incredibly dense you truly are.
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Mick, all these immigrants, why are they driving on the M4 on a Friday evening? Where are they going?
As someone who lives a lot closer to the M4 than you do I can tell you - they are rich commuters who work and live in London and the Thames Valley during the week and then go to their second home in the Brecon Beacons, Gower Peninsula, Somerset, Wiltshire & Gloucestershire for the weekend. The only way immigration has any effect is that whatever job these people do having more people to do it for has made them very rich hence them being able to afford more than one home when there is a percentage of our society who dont even have one.
Look. I don't agree with everything Nige says believe it or not. However he has decided he is onto a winner by playing the immigration card as much as possible. That is the context that his comments need to be seen in. No-one seriously believes he was late just because the motorway was full of immigrants. However it is undeniable that our roads are more congested due to uncontrolled immigration over recent years. That is point to take from this incident.
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Mick, all these immigrants, why are they driving on the M4 on a Friday evening? Where are they going?
As someone who lives a lot closer to the M4 than you do I can tell you - they are rich commuters who work and live in London and the Thames Valley during the week and then go to their second home in the Brecon Beacons, Gower Peninsula, Somerset, Wiltshire & Gloucestershire for the weekend. The only way immigration has any effect is that whatever job these people do having more people to do it for has made them very rich hence them being able to afford more than one home when there is a percentage of our society who dont even have one.
Look. I don't agree with everything Nige says believe it or not. However he has decided he is onto a winner by playing the immigration card as much as possible. That is the context that his comments need to be seen in. No-one seriously believes he was late just because the motorway was full of immigrants. However it is undeniable that our roads are more congested due to uncontrolled immigration over recent years. That is point to take from this incident.
So you do agree Nige is talking b*llocks about why he was late!
Good to get that cleared up. I can't understand why it took you so long.
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I've explained where Nige was coming from
Swindon direction? After leaving about 2 hours later than he should have done?
Me, when I have an important meeting to travel to, I check things like the AA website to see what the traffic is like.
But I appreciate that UKIP harks back to the good old days. When we didn't have things like the internet.
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Am I reading this right - Ed wants to make sensible cuts but won't tell anyone what they are? How can you go forwards with a policy of, elect us and we'll make the right decisions? That's simply bizarre!
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Am I reading this right - Ed wants to make sensible cuts but won't tell anyone what they are? How can you go forwards with a policy of, elect us and we'll make the right decisions? That's simply bizarre!
You are. Its a joke. The only commitments they've made will save a very small percentage of whats needed.
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Am I reading this right - Ed wants to make sensible cuts but won't tell anyone what they are? How can you go forwards with a policy of, elect us and we'll make the right decisions? That's simply bizarre!
No, it's much easier to get elected by spouting grandiose statements such as promising to protect frontline services, then once elected turn round and piss in the eyes of the voters.
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Today was supposed to be the day red Ed made up for forgetting to talk about the deficit (and immigration and welfare) at the party conference. He was going to tell us how Labour were going to reduce the deficit during the next parliament. He was going to restore our belief in Labour's economic competence. He must think we're all stupid. Here are the only commitments he has committed to (which we already knew about):
Stopping the winter fuel allowance for "the wealthiest pensioners"
Capping child benefit rises at 1%
Scrapping police commissioners
Wow. That's going to save less than a billion. The winter fuel allowance policy will actually only affect 5% of pensioners and will cost more to implement than it will save. But lets not let that get in the way of a good soundbite.
He's also going to increase wages and protect public services.
The man is a total utter joke and Labour's policies if you can call them that are ridiculous in the extreme. The cuts that he says he is prepared to make will make the last 5 years look like a walk in the park. However, anyone with an ounce of intelligence will not believe him.
There is no way Labour will cut the deficit and eliminate it during the next parliament. If the best he can do is come up with less than a billion in cuts in his big speech then he is taking us all for mugs. He must really believe that the 35% of people he wants to vote for him are unbelievably stupid.
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I'm sorry, were you expecting each and every one of next year's election policy initiatives announced today for some reason?
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We were lead to believe that this was the day red Ed was going to clarify how the deficit was to be removed during the next parliament. He didn't do it. Not that I expected him to do for a second.
How he's got the nerve to pretend that he did so today is breathtaking. The public deserve so much better from its political leaders.
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Glad you're including all the rest in there.
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Am I reading this right - Ed wants to make sensible cuts but won't tell anyone what they are? How can you go forwards with a policy of, elect us and we'll make the right decisions? That's simply bizarre!
No, it's much easier to get elected by spouting grandiose statements such as promising to protect frontline services, then once elected turn round and piss in the eyes of the voters.
Come on Glyn, Labour have spent the last 5 years opposing every cut, yet they'll end up going even further, they're setting that up by not making promises. I think it's the right thing for them to do, it has to be done, but I don't think their voters, union leaders, activists or the general public will see it that way. They got themselves in to a position of anti cuts, evil tories etc. If they do similar they're massively risking following the Lib Dem strategy a bit too closely.
The bit about selling off unwanted government assets amused me though, I thought Labour was hugely against selling things off, talk about change in tact...
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I'd rather the Tories won the election but wouldn't be too upset if Labour actually formed the government. BFYP is right. Their voters are going to feel very let down. It might be worth letting them rule for a couple of years until the public realised what they were all about and then they wouldn't get in for a generation. Short term pain for long term gain. I can live with that.
Its just a shame the public can't see whats staring them in the face.
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BFYP
You don't get what Opposition is about do you. It's about not making yourself a target. It's about sniping and wounding the Govt, not about inspiring people.
It's shit but that's how it is.
Cameron didn't set out a detailed programme from 2005-10. He started off saying he agreed with Brown's spending plans and would continue them. When the banking crisis came, he gave a speech saying he would support drastic measures needed to save us from a calamity. He then vanished for 6 months and let the Govt take the worst if the flak. When the existential crisis to the world economy was over, he popped up again saying that Brown should have spent less and that he opposed every action that had been taken on the spot. to avert the disaster. He then said that increasing VAT was not something they were considering, before increasing it within weeks of taking power.
That's what Opposition is about. It truly is shit, but don't blame the politicians for it. Or if you do, be consistent and blame them all.