Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: IC1967 on January 08, 2015, 11:04:07 pm
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After the terrorist attack in France I think it's time to say enough is enough. It's time for Muslims to come into the real world.
I appreciate that most Muslims condemn what has happened but they need to go one step further. They need to say they believe in free speech and will not get upset at the prophet having the piss taken out of him. Unfortunately 80% of Muslims think it should be a criminal offence if the piss is taken out of their religion.
This is completely wrong. If you want to live in a country like ours you have to take the rough with the smooth. All religions should be open to scrutiny. It is my opinion that all religions are totally ridiculous and I should be allowed to say that. Islam is not a special case.
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wow I agree with mick.! only that religion defies logic though.
its a personal thing but to me all religion is irrational! boils my piss that the pretend left pegger's get the best schooling! we've had faith schools for generations in the UK yet go mad at muslim based in a school environment? I cant remember us protesting outside Mc'aulies when the IRA were at its peak!? (is it caus their pinkies like us!?) Its not allowed, to be openly raciest now, so instead society attacks their religions??
We should all be able to laugh at ourselves and be laughed at, I would add though its perfectly acceptable to be angered by idiocy and insensitivity.
A minefield for sure, the world needs religion like a hole in the head. The worship of tangible things like the sun, water, seasons ect makes more sense to me than Gods and kings/Queens
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You must be a leftie if you don't agree with most of what I post. Its a long painful process seeing the errors of your ways but I detect there is hope for you as you are bang on about religion.
Certain things need to happen. Our lily livered politicians need to ban faith schools. All schools should be secular and teach all religions and point out their inconsistencies and silliness instead of brainwashing children who then turn into brainwashed adults. You should have a mix of ethnicities in schools so we can all get to know each others cultures. The over riding culture though that should be taught is the British culture. Freedom of speech should be paramount as without it we question nothing and society would not move forward.
Muslims need to get together and organise a big march in London and show they don't secretly feel that those who 'blaspheme' get what they deserve. Radical mosques should be sorted out by the Muslims. Why don't they do it?
All in all there's a lot more Muslims could be doing to sort out the problem. If they don't, then Islamaphobia is going to get a lot worse.
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A minefield for sure, the world needs religion like a hole in the head. The worship of tangible things like the sun, water, seasons ect makes more sense to me than Gods and kings/Queens
:that:
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I think that all known extremists should be rounded up and interred without charge, people such as that Asghar Bukhari who was on Sky news yesterday, desperate times require desperate measures, moderate muslims should be encouraged to gain back control of their faith
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I think that all known extremists should be rounded up and interred without charge, people such as that Asghar Bukhari who was on Sky news yesterday, desperate times require desperate measures, moderate muslims should be encouraged to gain back control of their faith
Totally agree. These nutters in France were known to the police. No way should they have been allowed out on the streets with their records. We should have zero tolerance for any Muslim extremism. Better to be safe than sorry.
I'll make a bet now. There will be an atrocity in the UK and the perpetrators will already have a track record that most people would think should mean that should have been locked up. While ever they display extremist tendencies then they should never be allowed out. We are far too soft.
Moderate Muslims know who these nutters are. They should be much more proactive in giving them up. We should be far more proactive in locking them up and throwing away the key. If it was up to me they would all be executed as a deterrent and to make me feel better.
One thing that should happen is that the Muslims should march through London displaying banners of the cartoons of the prophet from the French magazine. By doing this they would display that they believe in free speech which currently the vast majority of them don't. It won't happen though.
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
No. Lock em up if they are extremists. The killings in France wouldn't have happened if the powers that be had been a lot tougher on the suspects.
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We should have zero tolerance for any Muslim extremism. Better to be safe than sorry.
Your argument would have more weight if you used "extremism" instead of "muslim extremism".
Wanting to prevent acts of terrorism is all well and good, and your views on free speech may be well intentioned, but you come across to me as a racist " If it was up to me they would all be executed as a deterrent and to make me feel better."
Islam is not a race, it's a religion, the extremist Askhar Bakhari tried to play the very same race card on sky news yesterday
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OK whatever the -ist or-ism word is for religion then. The point is the same.
My apologies if "racist" was incorrect, perhaps "bigot" is better?
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Voice of sanity from Mark Steel
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-how-exactly-would-we-like-muslims-to-condemn-these-attacks-9966176.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-how-exactly-would-we-like-muslims-to-condemn-these-attacks-9966176.html)
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets
Filo
Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets
Filo
Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?
To be honest, not really, but how do we protect our citizens from ever increasingly violent extremism?
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets
Filo
Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?
To be honest, not really, but how do we protect our citizens from ever increasingly violent extremism?
Not by Internnment. That makes us look even more like the evil regime and radicalises even more people against us. Internment in Northern Ireland was the best recruitment campaign the IRA ever had.
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
In a word Glynn, Yes!, we introduced internment in Northern Ireland, why not now? More attacks will occur and innocent people slaughtered while we have these people roaming our streets
Filo
Have you ever looked into what the effect of internment in Northern Ireland was?
To be honest, not really, but how do we protect our citizens from ever increasingly violent extremism?
Not by Internnment. That makes us look even more like the evil regime and radicalises even more people against us. Internment in Northern Ireland was the best recruitment campaign the IRA ever had.
So what do we do then?
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
That reminds me if an old case close to home. Remember the lass who was stabbed by a woman with mental health issues in the Frenchgate Centre round about 1990?
The doctor who signed her out if hospital (Neil Wildgoose?) was pilloried and hounded out of his job. My mum worked on ward 10 at the time and I remember clear as day she said that the doctor knew the woman was dangerous and posed a threat to the public but he wasn't allowed to keep her under lock and key because of what she might do.
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And as we speak breaking news is there has been another shooting and hostage taken in Paris, more than likely linked to other events, known extremists allowed to roam freely amongst the population!
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We protect our citizens by proportionate response. By keeping things in perspective. The shootings in Paris are horrific and shocking. But you don't to that by radicalising the next generation. You keep on chipping away at the problem over a very long time. You bring the moderates on side and you isolate the nutcases, taking them out when necessary.
You accept the fact that there is a problem that has taken centuries to develop and you won't solve it in a few weeks. We will have this problem for decades, there's no question of that. The question is, whether we respond by degenerating into all-out inter-community war, or whether we steel ourselves to deal with the occasional atrocity.
There's some sense of perspective needed here. There have been fewer people killed in Western Europe in the last decade by all the Islamist attacks put together than were killed in one day by Anders Brevik. That's the context. That is not to belittle the massacre that was committed in Paris, or the killing of Lee Rigby. But you don't respond to those things by deliberately inciting the next generation to even worse atrocities.
Internment in Ireland was a disaster. It radicalised the next generation and extended the war by years. That's what happens when entire communities are targeted. It sets up martyrs and myths and those feed the next generation. It's no coincidence that the Paris murderers are of Algerian descent. Go and have a look at what France did in Algeria in the 50s and 60s. Which, again, is not in any way to condone the Paris attacks. But it shows you how effective interring, killing and torturing people does.
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Back on the topic though, it surprises and worries me that moderate Muslims haven't staged marches against extremism carried out in the name of their religion.
I've read the "why should we apologise for other people's actions" argument plenty of times but perhaps being castigated by their own community would make some of these people think twice about who they're hurting and why. You can also look at the Stop the War marches in London for an example of people rising up against killing in their name. There's a precedent set by people of a Western culture so the Muslim community have no reason not to follow suit.
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Mike.
Perspective again.
Was there an expectation that right wing Christians should have marched to show their disgust at what Brevik did in their name?
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And as we speak breaking news is there has been another shooting and hostage taken in Paris, more than likely linked to other events, known extremists allowed to roam freely amongst the population!
a jewish supermarket under siege now, just said on news it is linked to the other hostage situation from the Charlie murders as they have said they won't come out/release hostages until the other terroists are no longer under siege
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So you want to lock up people because of what they might do instead of what they have done? That's an old concept, George Orwell described the Thought Police back in the forties. :police:
That reminds me if an old case close to home. Remember the lass who was stabbed by a woman with mental health issues in the Frenchgate Centre round about 1990?
The doctor who signed her out if hospital (Neil Wildgoose?) was pilloried and hounded out of his job. My mum worked on ward 10 at the time and I remember clear as day she said that the doctor knew the woman was dangerous and posed a threat to the public but he wasn't allowed to keep her under lock and key because of what she might do.
That was the Mental Health system, not the Criminal system. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that the people talked about in this thread should be sectioned for some reason?
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And as we speak breaking news is there has been another shooting and hostage taken in Paris, more than likely linked to other events, known extremists allowed to roam freely amongst the population!
a jewish supermarket under siege now, just said on news it is linked to the other hostage situation from the Charlie murders as they have said they won't come out/release hostages until the other terroists are no longer under siege
It is being reported that the suspects are the same ones wanted for the killing of the policewoman yesterday
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The only hope for society are the Ten Commandments, anyone remember them?
Good luck!
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The only hope for society are the Ten Commandments, anyone remember them?
Good luck!
The problem with these ancient religious texts is it seems they can be interpreted anyway you like.
For every 'thou shalt not kill' you can find an 'eye for an eye'.
The Koran has a thou shalt not kill line but it's qualified. You shall not take life, which god has made sacred, except by the way of justice and law. There's a fair amount of wriggle room in that one!
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The only hope for society are the Ten Commandments, anyone remember them?
Good luck!
The problem with these ancient religious texts is it seems they can be interpreted anyway you like.
For every 'thou shalt not kill' you can find an 'eye for an eye'.
The Koran has a thou shalt not kill line but it's qualified. You shall not kill, which god has made sacred, except by the way of justice and law. There's a fair amount of wriggle room in that one!
And the Ten Commandments says 'Thou shalt have no other God than me'...which combined with that makes for a dangerous mixture.
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RD
That's why religious texts have been so powerful over the centuries. You can find whatever you want in them to justify your own prejudices as being the Word of God.
Good innit?
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River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to. I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai. Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!
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River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to. I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai. Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!
Fair enough.
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River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to. I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai. Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!
Well, this atheist ain't too happy with several of them!
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River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to. I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai. Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!
Well, this atheist ain't too happy with several of them!
I'm not sure about coveting thy neighbours Ox to be honest but generally they're a reasonable set of guidelines.
In elevating that part of the bible above all else in the book or in faith generally, he is putting his own interpretation on it, which is my point.
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f**k The CofE
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River Don,
'An eye for an eye' is not one of the Ten Commandments I refer to. I speak of those given to Moses on Mnt. Sinai. Neither do I refer to what is written in the Koran.
I hold that these commandments are the best rules for a just society whether you Marxist, Atheist, Muslim, Christian or Jew.
Good luck!
Well, this atheist ain't too happy with several of them!
I'm not sure about coveting thy neighbours Ox to be honest but generally they're a reasonable set of guidelines.
In elevating that part of the bible above all else in the book or in faith generally, he is putting his own interpretation on it, which is my point.
I meant he ones about there is no other God than me and you shall worship me etc.
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Glyn, it's thou shalt worship no other God than me.
As an aethist I would have thought that would be an easy one for you to keep.
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I'm not having any 4000 year old shaman going up a mountain and coming down telling me not to swear or get a lazy lob on when I see the MILF over the road.
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Glyn, it's thou shalt worship no other God than me.
As an aethist I would have thought that would be an easy one for you to keep.
What about the 'I am the Lord thy God' one and the 'Remember the Sabbath day, keep it holy' one..? ;)
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I was telling Alex just yesterday, in the car, that we, collectively, missed the best chance to do something about the causes of all this 13 ish years ago. President Useless Bush. That's the man.
After September 11th, America had the sympathy of the world. Even Russia. Even China. If, then, the US had gone out of its way to enforce a solution to the causes of a number of the major grievances in the world, it would have taken a very, very brave national leader indeed to oppose, or even obstruct, it. So what did the 'leader of the free world' do? He picked a poor, defenceless country far away, demonised it, attacked it, bombed it , and radicalised both it and its near neighbour. And he got Al Quaida offshoots all over the world as a result. And then he bequeathed IS to the world too. Some US Presidents really have led the world towards being a better place. Some have been brave in doing it too. FDR is obvious. But LBJ, despite Vietnam, did some remarkably prescient and brave things too. So did JFK - even though, personally, I positively dislike the bloke. Eisenhower was wise where it mattered even if he was a boring pedant generally. But to me, Bush Jnr succesfully represented everything that is bad about the US of A. Short sghted. Vengeful. Uncaring of people or consequences. And worst of all, completely uninterested in the processes the world had in place to ensure stability and a degree of control. He set the unilateral tone that Russia is using so much more succesfully today.
The degree of Bush's culpability is staggering. Mind blowingly so.
As Billy said, we've got this for generations to come now. The very worst thing we could do would be to extend that even further. The Jesuits used to say 'Give me the child and I will give you the man'. Well. conceptually, it's the children we need to be targetting now.
As a result of the job I do now, I am happily, or perhaps very unhappily, in a position to know a fair bit about this stuff. I'm not shitting any of you. This is serious. And the choices we make over the next 2 years are going to have repercussions for the rest of the life of every single person that uses this forum. So a bit of calm, of thoughtfulness and use of grey matter is vital. But revenge is a powerful motive. Snag is, the emotions it is based upon don't make for either thought or wisdom. Bush proved that in Spades. And we've just had another perfect example of how not to use our brains splashed right in front of our eyes too. Sadly, I can't see any reason why this is going to be any different.
Therefore BobG's long range political forecast is one of a western armed camp, desparately, and not very succesfully, seeking to prevent outsiders creeping in. Of ever increasing pressure on the west as water, oil, metals and food run out. Of frightening armed western adventures to secure those rare supplies. An 'eastern bloc' that delights in pulling the tail of the western dragon but that curmudgeonly plays along when the going gets tough, and, much of the rest of the world intent on the eradication of the west, its allies and its values. And guess where that will lead? To a proscribed, restricted life where command and control and a specious definition of 'security' are everything and freedom is nothing. You can see that already beginning to happen right here. Right now. Do you want to live the rest of your life like that? If you don't, NOW is the time to stand up. To be counted. Not tomorrow. Now.
BobG
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Sept 11 wasn't so pivotal. When those airliners hit the twin towers there were thousands in the Middle East who came out of their houses to celebrate. The rhetoric of extreme Islam has been with us for a long time and Al Qaeda was already deeply embedded. It is a movement with many heads, without clear leaders, that's why it's so deadly.
That's not to say attacking Iraq and Afghanistan was a good idea.
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There Were some Asian kids in Bradford doing that never mind the Middle East.
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The reason we have this for generations to come is that we've had it for generations past. We've known about Islamic fundamentalism since before the days Gordon fought the mad Mahdi in Khartoum.
What's changed is cheap communication and travel.
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RD
Of course they did. That is the response of the weak and the downtrodden when someone on their side lashes out back. You and I would do it if we had been born in the hell hole slums of Gaza.
The West and Israel have been responsible for the deaths and the hopeless lives of hundreds, thousand times more Muslims than the number of Westerners that have been killed by Islamists. From Iraq in the days of the Mandate, through Palestine and Algeria. That's the context that made hearts leap with joy when those airliners hit the towers. And the context that makes Islamists lash out when their prophet is mocked.
I don't agree with any of those actions. But I greatly fear that we are in an era where we in the West are oblivious to the crimes committed in our name that have brought us to the current situation. And so, there's a danger of us seeing them as evil vermin and us as innocent victims.
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In recent decades the west has been far more effective in killing Muslims but Islam and Christendom have been at each other's throats since Islam emerged in the Middle East and swept all before it until it was brought to a halt in France.
In the end I think our best hope is for all sides to put these superstitions away and take a more enlightened view but it seems we are in an era where in most of the world religious belief is on the rise.
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It's fundamentally about power, education and economics. Religion, for the most part, fills the void for the poor, the powerless and the ignorant. It provides a context and a comfort for the earthly suffering. As people and countries increase their living standards and feel secure, religious zeal falls. That's always been the way.
We will have Islamic fundamentalism for the whole of this century and beyond. Because there is such a fertile ground for that religious message in the soil of the poor, the powerless and the poorly educated. We have to deal with that. And we have to keep a sense of proportion when atrocities like this weeks' happen.
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Is it the poverty that keeps nations Islamic or Islam that keeps nations poor?
Saudi is a pretty wealthy country but Islam maintains it's tight grip, with a few fabulously wealthy royals and a great mass of poor.
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Of course we should learn from history but it should not be an excuse for the current behaviour of radicalised muslims. There's only so much we can do to prevent terrorist attacks but we should crack on and start doing it. All this liberal leftie crap makes it easy for Muslims to do pretty much as they please in this country.
Like I say there is only so much we can do so lets start at home and set an example for the rest of the world to follow. Leaving things as they are and pussy footing around the issue is not going to sort things out.
Our media needs to stop being scared of ridiculing Islam for fear of upsetting Muslims. The politicians especially Labour ones need to be less scared of causing offence. As things stand, the terrorists have won because pretty much all our mainstream media refuses to print cartoons or anything that might get a reaction from Muslims. Charlie Hebdo stood out as it was pretty much the only media that ridiculed Islam. If all the media did this then it would soon become 'normal' and some of the brainwashing that Muslims suffer from would be undone.
Fear of upsetting Muslims is dressed up as tolerance by the politically correct brigade. It has to stop.
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Hear hear Billy. Don, you're dead right that Saudi Arabia, for example, has the cash to do something about poverty and education - but it still lacks both the ethos, culture, values (whatever you want to call it) and the will. And that is because they 'joined' the western world, got the cash, less than 50 years ago. It took Europe, and its offshoots, over a thousand years to develop the values and culture we have at today. It's foolish to expect the Arabs to be anywhere within a thousand miles of that in less than half a century. (You can apply the exact same argument to Russia by the way too. Just think about where these countries have come from, what their values have been for centuries and how those fit with what we are pleased to call 'civilisation'. (And just for fun, think about what reasons you could offer why our way is better than anyone elses - without using western platitudes too! One example: why, WHY, should life be sacrosanct? It isn't in the animal kingdom. It isn't in early civilisations. It isn't in quite a lot of the none western world. It isn't, even, in the west any more. Drones kill hundreds and hundreds of entirely innocent old men, women and children every year in an undeclared war that has not been approved by a single parliament anywhere). Just think what impact that has on uneducated, poverty stricken blokes in the Middle East, Pakistan)
Our actions surely have to be designed to encourage the growth of education, the relief of mass poverty, the provision of hope and aspiration. It will take a very long time indeed to achieve. That's one of the reasons why it's so important what we decide now, and it's one of the reasons why Bush was such an unmitigated disaster for the whole world. The one thing we really should not be doing, yet again, is an eye for an eye.
A mate of mine once suggested to me, when I was struggling badly, that if something isn't working, doing more of the same won't solve the problem. Well, do you believe that how the west has, and continues, to treat Arabs, Islam, the poor and the disadvantaged is working? And if your answer is 'No', what, exactly do you propose should be done about that?
Bob
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I think the Arabs and Islamic nations probably have to help themselves, I don't think it's all the fault of the West that they are in a mess. It isn't taking the Chinese very long to turn their society from an agrarian backwater into an industrial powerhouse. It took the Japanese about 50years and defeat in war to achieve their economic objective of 'catch up and overtake'. South Korea joined the western world and transformed itself in the 30 years between the 60s and 90s.
Islamic societies need to be more open and democratic but their religion is holding them back from developing it because their religious texts hold within them a system of law that isn't appropriate for the age we live in.
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The reason we have this for generations to come is that we've had it for generations past. We've known about Islamic fundamentalism since before the days Gordon fought the mad Mahdi in Khartoum.
What's changed is cheap communication and travel.
Hallelujah. Let's blame Ryanair
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RD
5 of the top 10 and 8 of the top 20 richest countries in the world (judged by GDP per capita PPP - IMF figures for 2013) are Islamic countries. And 6 of the poorest 7 countries on that list have overwhelming majorities of Christian citizens.
Clearly Islam doesn't make countries poor. Any more than Christianity makes countries rich. It's natural resources, stability, internal and geo-politics that makes countries rich or poor. And it's the willingness of the powerful within a country to appropriate power and wealth to themselves and beggar their fellow countrymen that makes some people bestially poor in relatively rich countries. That's nothing to do with religion. Go have a look at the Rio favelas.
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I've never been a fan of what I generally believe to be loony conspiracy theories but where Islamic terrorism is involved I can't help thinking that a good chunk of it could be curtailed quite easily if it was in the interests of governments to do so.
Saudi has already been cited as a wealthy Islamic state and it's known to be a major sponsor of extremism yet our two countries are on friendly terms.
There seems to be a great deal of diversionary politics going on around the world (perhaps not notably in Russia). When people are worried about their civil liberties and even their lives then they are less likely to focus on the nefarious dealings of those in power or bring about major social change.
Could a threat of terror attacks be a good way of burying the transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy?
The rise of UKIP from the right has no doubt been partially influenced by fear of brown people. It's got the working classes out in support of the people who would take bread from their mouths to adorn the banqueting tables of the super-rich.
Those with power and money in the Middle East are using gear of god to manipulate the poor and disenfranchised. Those with power and money here are using fear of terrorism. A few proles wiped out around the world regardless of creed are the collateral damage in the machine that keeps the worldwide old boys' network intact.
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By the way, I fully expect a swift deconstruction of that back-of-a-fag-packet theory but I can't help feeling there's some truth in it somewhere.
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In their faith is it okay to gamble their money ?
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I don't know but I was thinking about that with the huge amounts spent on horse racing etc.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/saudi-blogger-first-lashes-raif-badawi
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I don't know but I was thinking about that with the huge amounts spent on horse racing etc.
There did not appear to be "gambling" when I went to Nad Al Sheba (pardon spelling). At least I could break even for once
There was a HUGE crowd though any they could pay a small amount - about 50p - and using a Slip like a Placepot pick the Winners of each Race. Whoever managed it got a fairly decent Car
The crowd was very polite and rose to their feet and applauded the winning Horse during the final furlong. The whole thing was held under floodlight and the facilities were way better than Donny and should have been with the expenditure. Then they built a new place across the road and blew up the "old" place
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I've never been a fan of what I generally believe to be loony conspiracy theories but where Islamic terrorism is involved I can't help thinking that a good chunk of it could be curtailed quite easily if it was in the interests of governments to do so.
Saudi has already been cited as a wealthy Islamic state and it's known to be a major sponsor of extremism yet our two countries are on friendly terms.
There seems to be a great deal of diversionary politics going on around the world (perhaps not notably in Russia). When people are worried about their civil liberties and even their lives then they are less likely to focus on the nefarious dealings of those in power or bring about major social change.
Could a threat of terror attacks be a good way of burying the transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy?
The rise of UKIP from the right has no doubt been partially influenced by fear of brown people. It's got the working classes out in support of the people who would take bread from their mouths to adorn the banqueting tables of the super-rich.
Those with power and money in the Middle East are using gear of god to manipulate the poor and disenfranchised. Those with power and money here are using fear of terrorism. A few proles wiped out around the world regardless of creed are the collateral damage in the machine that keeps the worldwide old boys' network intact.
It's a terrible thing to think but I am with you Mike. There is something really odd about all this, three murderous men all supposedly part of the same cell yet tonight we are told that they belong to two separate factions? Isis and Al Qaeda.
I have read that there is the thought that this is the Zionists punishment to France for recognising Palestine.
I know I will get laughed down but imho it never pays to trust anything in this world, certainly not our governments.
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I've never been a fan of what I generally believe to be loony conspiracy theories but where Islamic terrorism is involved I can't help thinking that a good chunk of it could be curtailed quite easily if it was in the interests of governments to do so.
Saudi has already been cited as a wealthy Islamic state and it's known to be a major sponsor of extremism yet our two countries are on friendly terms.
There seems to be a great deal of diversionary politics going on around the world (perhaps not notably in Russia). When people are worried about their civil liberties and even their lives then they are less likely to focus on the nefarious dealings of those in power or bring about major social change.
Could a threat of terror attacks be a good way of burying the transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy?
The rise of UKIP from the right has no doubt been partially influenced by fear of brown people. It's got the working classes out in support of the people who would take bread from their mouths to adorn the banqueting tables of the super-rich.
Those with power and money in the Middle East are using gear of god to manipulate the poor and disenfranchised. Those with power and money here are using fear of terrorism. A few proles wiped out around the world regardless of creed are the collateral damage in the machine that keeps the worldwide old boys' network intact.
I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.
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I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.
Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.
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I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.
Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.
I think the silent majority would totally disagree with you.
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I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.
Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.
:) :) :) :)
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I'm sorry to disagree but I think your post was extremely silly and doesn't bear the slightest scrutiny.
Now you know how the rest of us feel when we read your stuff.
I think the silent majority would totally disagree with you.
A perfect illustration. Many thanks. :thumbsup:
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Do you know how and why the Lusitania came to be torpedoed Mick?
It's very instructive indeed given MikeF's thoughts and your patronising view of them.
Just think Churchill, politics and strategic imperative. Then apply that to today's weltanschaung. Mike may not have it right. But it's worth serious thought given the example I suggest you research. If you can't do that, I can supply as many details as you like. And just to make things easier for you, you could try reading ISBN 0 14 00.3793.4 Colin Simpson. Longman 1972. Reprinted Penguin. 1974 .It's a fair summary for beginners.
BobG
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Do you know how and why the Lusitania came to be torpedoed Mick?
It's very instructive indeed given MikeF's thoughts and your patronising view of them.
Just think Churchill, politics and strategic imperative. Then apply that to today's weltanschaung. Mike may not have it right. But it's worth serious thought given the example I suggest you research. If you can't do that, I can supply as many details as you like. And just to make things easier for you, you could try reading ISBN 0 14 00.3793.4 Colin Simpson. Longman 1972. Reprinted Penguin. 1974 .It's a fair summary for beginners.
BobG
I've done Mike the courtesy of reading his post again before deciding I was right all along. I will say one thing for him though. He does have a very vivid imagination.
However I do issue an abject apology to Mike if I came across as patronising. Regular readers of this forum will know that I never usually come across this way. I'm afraid I have a very pugnacious debating style that can be a bit disconcerting to others that prefer to debate in a beat about the bush fashion.
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Mick's ego. The gift that keeps on giving. :silly:
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I see Evan Davies displayed the front cover of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo paper, featuring another cartoon of the prophet.
That took a bit of courage, I wonder if anyone else in the British media will follow suit?
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In all the welter of emotion that has been poured out since the attack last week, I initially missed this
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/11/7527697/ahmed-malek-merabet-eulogy-charlie-hebdo
Scroll down to the transcript of the murdered policeman's brother's comments.
Anyone who berates Islam and Muslims as a collective should read this every day and ponder on it.
Islam and Muslims are as diverse and varied as any other group of people. There are the rich and the poor, the powerful and the weak, the thoughtful and the ignorant, the humane and the bestial.
Collective branding of a group with certain perceived features is both ignorant and dangerous. Malek Merabet's beautiful eulogy, in the face of pain that I hope I never have to imagine, is a reminder to us all that there are thoughtful, decent, caring, forgiving, humane people from every background. Those are the ones that we should reach out to.
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I see Evan Davies displayed the front cover of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo paper, featuring another cartoon of the prophet.
That took a bit of courage, I wonder if anyone else in the British media will follow suit?
Newsnight did it a few nights ago as well when Kirsty Wark was presenting. So did Panorama last night. I think the BBC have been really stung by criticism that they have pandered to Muslims by not reporting anything that might offend them. Panorama was interesting in that it appears the main threat that Muslims pose in the UK is that there is a section amongst them that is rapidly growing that denounce violence but promote the view that Islam should be the religion of the whole world. The leaders of this growing faction are advising that Muslims use the freedom of speech that exists in the UK to promote their cause as much as possible.
Unfortunately it is not a big leap to believing that violence is the way to help the spread of Islam to become the religion of the world. There you have it. There is a large and growing cohort of Muslims that want Islam to become the religion of the UK and the world. Islamification is going on under our noses and we are letting it happen.
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In all the welter of emotion that has been poured out since the attack last week, I initially missed this
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/11/7527697/ahmed-malek-merabet-eulogy-charlie-hebdo
Scroll down to the transcript of the murdered policeman's brother's comments.
Anyone who berates Islam and Muslims as a collective should read this every day and ponder on it.
Islam and Muslims are as diverse and varied as any other group of people. There are the rich and the poor, the powerful and the weak, the thoughtful and the ignorant, the humane and the bestial.
Collective branding of a group with certain perceived features is both ignorant and dangerous. Malek Merabet's beautiful eulogy, in the face of pain that I hope I never have to imagine, is a reminder to us all that there are thoughtful, decent, caring, forgiving, humane people from every background. Those are the ones that we should reach out to.
I have no doubt there are plenty of decent, caring, forgiving, humane Muslims in this country.
That said the British Muslim community is split on the issue of sharia law. 40% want to see it introduced into parts of the UK while 40% are against. The other 20% can't make their minds up. That's not a tiny minority and it should concern us.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html
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RD
You (like the Telegraph) pick one figure from a very poorly worded question and make a conclusion based on that.
Here's the original poll.
http://www.icmunlimited.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf
The Telegraph could have headlined on the fact that 91% of Muslims feel loyalty to the UK. Or that a majority thought that Abu Hamza had been treated fairly at his trial.
On the Sharia issue, there are many shades to this. The question is very, very badly worded in simply asking if Sharia Law should be introduced. Many Muslims do want ASPECTS of Sharia law to be introduced for various domestic and contractual issues between Muslims. That is a far cry from assuming (not saying YOU do, but the unspoken worry is there) that they want public floggings and hands chopped off.
As I've been saying in this thread, there are clear and obvious concerns with issues between the Muslim and other communities in this country. But there's also a need for us to keep a sense of perspective.
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RD
You (like the Telegraph) pick one figure from a very poorly worded question and make a conclusion based on that.
Here's the original poll.
http://www.icmunlimited.com/pdfs/2006_february_sunday_telegraph_muslims_poll.pdf
The Telegraph could have headlined on the fact that 91% of Muslims feel loyalty to the UK. Or that a majority thought that Abu Hamza had been treated fairly at his trial.
On the Sharia issue, there are many shades to this. The question is very, very badly worded in simply asking if Sharia Law should be introduced. Many Muslims do want ASPECTS of Sharia law to be introduced for various domestic and contractual issues between Muslims. That is a far cry from assuming (not saying YOU do, but the unspoken worry is there) that they want public floggings and hands chopped off.
As I've been saying in this thread, there are clear and obvious concerns with issues between the Muslim and other communities in this country. But there's also a need for us to keep a sense of perspective.
Keeping a politically correct sense of perspective will mean the situation will get worse. When 80% of Muslims (in the UK) think it should be a criminal offence if their religion is criticised it shows there is a long way to go.
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Yes well. When I said that we should keep a sense of perspective, the last person I was thinking of including in the "we" was you Mick. You couldn't sense if your arse was on fire.
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Yes well. When I said that we should keep a sense of perspective, the last person I was thinking of including in the "we" was you Mick. You couldn't sense if your arse was on fire.
Look, it's thanks to liberal lefties like you that we have a growing problem with Muslims. The media daren't criticise Islam, they can set up faith schools so their children can carry on being brainwashed, radical preachers can speak freely in their mosques with impunity etc. Get a grip man. All this wishy washy political correctness is adding to the problem not sorting it out.
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BST
I don't disagree with what you're saying, I think we generally agree to be honest. I can understand your concern that Islam should not be demonised, that Muslims are a diverse lot. I get that.
I don't think it's wise for us not to be guarded. To turn a blind to difficult issues, like the domination of certain British schools by a Muslim majority and to allow them to enforce strict Islamic rules. I don't agree with faith schools at all, just my personal opinion.
To be honest I find the idea of introducing any kind of sharia law into the UK unacceptable, just as I find the idea of Jewish courts, which have been allowed in some parts of the UK unacceptable. For me we should all live under and abide by UK law and that's it.
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There is no doubt in my mind that Islam is a growing threat to our way of life. Here is plenty of evidence to prove the point.
When there are statements like this in the Koran is it any wonder?
"Strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is their destination."
Quran 9:73
Here is plenty of evidence to prove the point.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm
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I see Evan Davies displayed the front cover of tomorrow's Charlie Hebdo paper, featuring another cartoon of the prophet.
That took a bit of courage, I wonder if anyone else in the British media will follow suit?
Roundup of some of the world's media,some have chosen self censorship
http://www.buzzfeed.com/austinhunt/heres-who-is-and-isnt-publishing-the-new-charlie-hebdo-cover#.xqkDx8pjw (http://www.buzzfeed.com/austinhunt/heres-who-is-and-isnt-publishing-the-new-charlie-hebdo-cover#.xqkDx8pjw)
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I attended a faith school which set me up with the basics in life to know right from wrong.My parents of irish descent had to fight ignorance and bigotry to become an estabished part of the community Denaby Main.Later on the commonwealth immigrants arrived who worked the busses and hospitals.They too assimilated but found it more difficult to hide largely because of there colour and the need to stick together for support from continued discrimination.Wind the clock on and we now have muslims who have become the new whipping boys for moral majority.Reflecting upon my dangerious faith school education I remember some fundamental principles that may apply to current situation.
1 two wrongs dont make a right
2 let he who is without sin cast the first stone
3 love your neighbour
4 turn the other cheek
5 feed the poor
6 there are many mansions in my fathers house
7 find your own god and dont let pope or priest stand in your way
And so on etc
I can see how such ideals may be a threat to society and need to be curtailed
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I attended a faith school which set me up with the basics in life to know right from wrong.My parents of irish descent had to fight ignorance and bigotry to become an estabished part of the community Denaby Main.Later on the commonwealth immigrants arrived who worked the busses and hospitals.They too assimilated but found it more difficult to hide largely because of there colour and the need to stick together for support from continued discrimination.Wind the clock on and we now have muslims who have become the new whipping boys for moral majority.Reflecting upon my dangerious faith school education I remember some fundamental principles that may apply to current situation.
1 two wrongs dont make a right
2 let he who is without sin cast the first stone
3 love your neighbour
4 turn the other cheek
5 feed the poor
6 there are many mansions in my fathers house
7 find your own god and dont let pope or priest stand in your way
And so on etc
I can see how such ideals may be a threat to society and need to be curtailed
Faith schools, are nothing more than centres for the indoctrination of children.
I think you'll find that you would have integrated much more quickly into British society if you'd gone to a non faith school. By going to a Catholic school you were segregated from Protestants which made up the bulk of the British population. No wonder it took many years for your family to be integrated.
You were also taught a lot of absurd things such as your religion was the only correct one. No doubt you looked down on other religions due to this brainwashing. Sex before marriage was wrong, contraception was wrong and sex between a man and woman was only for the procreation of children. There are many other absurdities I could list.
Did you know that Muslims are taught that the world is only 6000 years old? They are also taught that creationism is right and evolution is wrong. There are also many more absurd things they are taught. This would not be the case if they were taught in non faith schools. They would also integrate a lot more quickly.
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RD
I hope you didn't take my post as a personal attack. Wasn't the intention.
We have a different slant on the tactics, but I think both of us want to see the extremists isolated and hounded, and the moderates supported and encouraged to continue to become key parts of our society.
My take is that it's a long, long process. On the issue of that opinion poll, there were many aspects that were extremely promising on the issue of assimilation and integration, especially given the context that it was taken at the very height of the Iraq War/Guantanamo.
Which is not to say that there aren't huge problems too. But my worry is that when intelligent people focus only on the negatives, it feeds the attitudes of those who want stupid, dangerous responses to the situation, like our resident idiot here.
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I am not going to get into an argument about the pros and cons of non faith schools.You either believe there is a spiritual element to our existance or you dont.Education requires an open mind which I would argue that you dont have in abundance judging by some of your bigoted comments on this foruum.In another post you boast you are amongst the top 1 per cent of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around you.We now live in a world were the norm is food banks, zero hour contracts and the rationing of life saving contracts.I suggest that it you who have been brainwashed by a secular education system that advocates materialist aspirations above your humanity.
I am aware of the shortcommings of our education system but you must be aware that all schools regardless of status are under the national cirriculum which is universal.It is interesting to note however that many non catholic parents (a third) elect to send there children for systematic brainwashing which are feeder schools for mcaulies etc.I wonder why ?
I have many issues with established religion as an institution that perpetuates the status quo to the detriment of the community .I could reel of reams of stuff about the history of the church and dodgy dealings and I do so as I try to keep an open mind.I am what I suppose is a practicing catholic as I have still not got it right.I was educated to degree level and chose to work inthe care sector as I abhor the calvinist work ethic that gave rise to capitalism.I have read Marx, Engels and trotsky and although I dont swallow the whole pill believe that they had a good grasp on what makes society tick.As a socialist I would welcome the return of clause 4 part 4 of the labour party constitution as the class system is as prevailent as ever in our society.
Now back to religion.You need to research some of your steriotypical ideas regarding catholics.Contraceptives are now endorsed as evidenced by not many families having 10 kids.Science and theology are now bridging gaps as knowledge improves.We are not tought that jonah lived in a whale and stuuff like that.The parables of the old testament were aimed at dudes sat around camp fires with limited intellect, not unlike youself.If that sounds unchristian please forgive me as I have been brainwashed from an early age.
Some
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I am not going to get into an argument about the pros and cons of non faith schools.You either believe there is a spiritual element to our existance or you dont.Education requires an open mind which I would argue that you dont have in abundance judging by some of your bigoted comments on this foruum.In another post you boast you are amongst the top 1 per cent of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around you.We now live in a world were the norm is food banks, zero hour contracts and the rationing of life saving contracts.I suggest that it you who have been brainwashed by a secular education system that advocates materialist aspirations above your humanity.
I am aware of the shortcommings of our education system but you must be aware that all schools regardless of status are under the national cirriculum which is universal.It is interesting to note however that many non catholic parents (a third) elect to send there children for systematic brainwashing which are feeder schools for mcaulies etc.I wonder why ?
I have many issues with established religion as an institution that perpetuates the status quo to the detriment of the community .I could reel of reams of stuff about the history of the church and dodgy dealings and I do so as I try to keep an open mind.I am what I suppose is a practicing catholic as I have still not got it right.I was educated to degree level and chose to work inthe care sector as I abhor the calvinist work ethic that gave rise to capitalism.I have read Marx, Engels and trotsky and although I dont swallow the whole pill believe that they had a good grasp on what makes society tick.As a socialist I would welcome the return of clause 4 part 4 of the labour party constitution as the class system is as prevailent as ever in our society.
Now back to religion.You need to research some of your steriotypical ideas regarding catholics.Contraceptives are now endorsed as evidenced by not many families having 10 kids.Science and theology are now bridging gaps as knowledge improves.We are not tought that jonah lived in a whale and stuuff like that.The parables of the old testament were aimed at dudes sat around camp fires with limited intellect, not unlike youself.If that sounds unchristian please forgive me as I have been brainwashed from an early age.
You are a classic example of someone who has been brainwashed at a faith school and you have been unable to shake off this baggage. The way you were taught has also had the knock on effect of turning you into a hardcore leftie. The Catholic religion espouses a predominantly socialist way of life so no surprise there.
The absurd examples I gave of your religion were in the past tense. What I said used to be true but the Church has realised that its previous prognostications were extremely silly so they have 'modernised' and softened their stance. However there are still plenty of absurd beliefs that don't bear the slightest scrutiny in this day and age. However believers for some reason I cannot understand, seem perfectly capable of suspending the rational part of their brain and believe a lot of complete nonsense. To me that means they have been brainwashed. The more intelligent amongst us manage eventually to shake off this brainwashing but unfortunately there are many that can't or don't want to.
Ask yourself a question. Why are you a Catholic? The answer, because your parents were. Why do you believe what you believe? Answer, because you went to a Catholic school. You didn't have any choice in what religion you chose. You are a Catholic by chance. You believe your God is the only one. You don't believe there is no such thing as a God. You I'm afraid have been brainwashed and it doesn't half show.
You say education requires an open mind. I totally agree. You don't get your mind opened at a faith school. You get brainwashed.
You say I'm a bigot. Totally untrue. However I'm not surprised you use that comment as I'm used to lefties calling anyone that questions religion a bigot or anyone that questions immigration is called a racist. Easy politically correct labels to throw around when you've lost the debate.
You say I boasted about being in the top 1% of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around me. I think you'll find it was BobG that was boasting about being wealthier than me. That thread was merely an effort to educate you lefties into realising most of you are in the top 1%. If you truly wanted to be christian and socialist you need to realise that fact and start getting off your high horse constantly slagging off the rich. You don't realise you are slagging off yourselves. Remember, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I'd start helping the poor a bit more if I were you if you want to go to heaven otherwise hell awaits.
No way is just the national curriculum taught in all schools. You are way off the mark there. Non Catholics only send their children to Catholic schools only if they perceive they will get a better education. They put up with the religion side of things as they see that getting a good education is very important.
To finish I list some absurd beliefs of the Catholic religion.
There is a God.
All humans are born with original sin, which only Baptism removes.
A man can only marry a woman.
Sex should only be between married people only for the procreation of children or as a sign of love between the couple. It must never be used purely for pleasure.
The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God. This is despite its many contradictions and editing over the centuries.
Adam and Eve were our first parents.
Condoms should not be used to prevent the spread of AIDS.
I could go on for hours. How anyone with half a brain can believe such cobblers is beyond me. The only reason they do is brainwashing. It must stop. All faith schools should be banned immediately.
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You went to St Peters, Mick, was n't that a faith School?
You are of Catholic Irish descent Mick!
There are also C of E faith schools
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I have to say Catholic schools are nowhere near as bad as they used to be. But they are still bad. Trust me. I'm an expert on this subject.
To be fair to C of E schools, they are more like the secular non faith school that I favour. My children went to C of E schools and were taught about all religions and did not have the belief in God rammed down their throats. They both left school as atheists which is how it should be.
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The Socialist Republic of Ireland eh?
All them hardcore lefties in the Vatican eh?
Another thread gurgles down the plug hole of Mick's stentorian idiocy.
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For those who want Muslim leaders to speak out against terrorism (ps: they do. A lot. But I couldn't resist this one)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/muslim-mayor-of-rotterdam-ahmed-aboutaleb-tells-extremists-who-dont-like-freedom-to-f-off-9975459.html
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For those who want Muslim leaders to speak out against terrorism (ps: they do. A lot. But I couldn't resist this one)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/muslim-mayor-of-rotterdam-ahmed-aboutaleb-tells-extremists-who-dont-like-freedom-to-f-off-9975459.html
Lol! Did the prophet approve the use of such colourful language? :)
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I am not going to get into an argument about the pros and cons of non faith schools.You either believe there is a spiritual element to our existance or you dont.Education requires an open mind which I would argue that you dont have in abundance judging by some of your bigoted comments on this foruum.In another post you boast you are amongst the top 1 per cent of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around you.We now live in a world were the norm is food banks, zero hour contracts and the rationing of life saving contracts.I suggest that it you who have been brainwashed by a secular education system that advocates materialist aspirations above your humanity.
I am aware of the shortcommings of our education system but you must be aware that all schools regardless of status are under the national cirriculum which is universal.It is interesting to note however that many non catholic parents (a third) elect to send there children for systematic brainwashing which are feeder schools for mcaulies etc.I wonder why ?
I have many issues with established religion as an institution that perpetuates the status quo to the detriment of the community .I could reel of reams of stuff about the history of the church and dodgy dealings and I do so as I try to keep an open mind.I am what I suppose is a practicing catholic as I have still not got it right.I was educated to degree level and chose to work inthe care sector as I abhor the calvinist work ethic that gave rise to capitalism.I have read Marx, Engels and trotsky and although I dont swallow the whole pill believe that they had a good grasp on what makes society tick.As a socialist I would welcome the return of clause 4 part 4 of the labour party constitution as the class system is as prevailent as ever in our society.
Now back to religion.You need to research some of your steriotypical ideas regarding catholics.Contraceptives are now endorsed as evidenced by not many families having 10 kids.Science and theology are now bridging gaps as knowledge improves.We are not tought that jonah lived in a whale and stuuff like that.The parables of the old testament were aimed at dudes sat around camp fires with limited intellect, not unlike youself.If that sounds unchristian please forgive me as I have been brainwashed from an early age.
You are a classic example of someone who has been brainwashed at a faith school and you have been unable to shake off this baggage. The way you were taught has also had the knock on effect of turning you into a hardcore leftie. The Catholic religion espouses a predominantly socialist way of life so no surprise there.
The absurd examples I gave of your religion were in the past tense. What I said used to be true but the Church has realised that its previous prognostications were extremely silly so they have 'modernised' and softened their stance. However there are still plenty of absurd beliefs that don't bear the slightest scrutiny in this day and age. However believers for some reason I cannot understand, seem perfectly capable of suspending the rational part of their brain and believe a lot of complete nonsense. To me that means they have been brainwashed. The more intelligent amongst us manage eventually to shake off this brainwashing but unfortunately there are many that can't or don't want to.
Ask yourself a question. Why are you a Catholic? The answer, because your parents were. Why do you believe what you believe? Answer, because you went to a Catholic school. You didn't have any choice in what religion you chose. You are a Catholic by chance. You believe your God is the only one. You don't believe there is no such thing as a God. You I'm afraid have been brainwashed and it doesn't half show.
You say education requires an open mind. I totally agree. You don't get your mind opened at a faith school. You get brainwashed.
You say I'm a bigot. Totally untrue. However I'm not surprised you use that comment as I'm used to lefties calling anyone that questions religion a bigot or anyone that questions immigration is called a racist. Easy politically correct labels to throw around when you've lost the debate.
You say I boasted about being in the top 1% of the wealthy oblivious to the suffering around me. I think you'll find it was BobG that was boasting about being wealthier than me. That thread was merely an effort to educate you lefties into realising most of you are in the top 1%. If you truly wanted to be christian and socialist you need to realise that fact and start getting off your high horse constantly slagging off the rich. You don't realise you are slagging off yourselves. Remember, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I'd start helping the poor a bit more if I were you if you want to go to heaven otherwise hell awaits.
No way is just the national curriculum taught in all schools. You are way off the mark there. Non Catholics only send their children to Catholic schools only if they perceive they will get a better education. They put up with the religion side of things as they see that getting a good education is very important.
To finish I list some absurd beliefs of the Catholic religion.
There is a God.
All humans are born with original sin, which only Baptism removes.
A man can only marry a woman.
Sex should only be between married people only for the procreation of children or as a sign of love between the couple. It must never be used purely for pleasure.
The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God. This is despite its many contradictions and editing over the centuries.
Adam and Eve were our first parents.
Condoms should not be used to prevent the spread of AIDS.
I could go on for hours. How anyone with half a brain can believe such cobblers is beyond me. The only reason they do is brainwashing. It must stop. All faith schools should be banned immediately.
I was not aware i had lost a debate .Was there a show of hands from a cross section of the community like on question time ?If so, who was chairing .
You make a lot of assumptions about my background but i notice on comments from another poster that we share a similar history which would suggest that you too have been brainwashed comrade .If you are an expert as you say you must be a left footer like me .Pot calling kettle black springs to mind.
Okay reality check.
We are all victims of brain washing whether it comes from the media ,family or institutions like schools .Sociologists refer to the process as socialisation,psychology names it something else but it mainly means the same thing.We are all products of our environments shaped by on a macro level socio-political factors and on a micro level personal experiences .Throw into this equation the nature /nurture controversy and other variables like gender,age and race and which footy club you support may determine how f-cked up we really are.So as neither of us are exempt from this process i will give you that one for free .
You are also right that many parents access faith schools for a better education but fail to acknowledge the epidemic of bullying as a motivator for why parents choose faith schools . This alone should raise alarms why the state schools are failing to compete.Surely it couldn't be the extra cirricula values you refer to underpinning the national cirriculum which all schools are legally obliged to implement .So you got that one wrong old cock.I could go on about the comprehensive system being undermined by succesive governments or the work of Illich in his critique of de schooling society etc but whats the point you have already closed your mind to that one as you say you are an expert.
To me faith is a personal thing that must be experienced/felt rather than learned.I describe myself as an agnostic as i do not fully understand the concept of an absolute truth .This is a question that philosophers have battled with for eons even pre christianity.However, i am inspired by the teachings of JC and choose not to give up these values even if it means trying to be nice to dick heads like you (sorry god -see you in confession next week and by the way sorry as well for laughing at that film life of brian).I have seen things that can not be explained by science and so continue to keep an open mind.I am reconciled to stop asking questions about the other side and instead concentrate on the here and now which is why i fell out with religion as it teaches you to accept your lot in this life and turn a blind eye to all the crap going on.To me it is academic as to the existence of an after life as it would not make difference to what i am doing today .But if the gospels are a conspiracy as you suggest from all the editing etc i would like to meet the bloke who wrote the original as he was some scholar and would get my vote tomorrow
The road to damascus or the eureka moment occurred for me when attending a church service in Oxford.The local priest was talking about the evils of communism creeping into the schools.The following week i attended a service in Denaby where the Irish priest was preaching the evils of Thatcherism .Same theme education but differing perspectives reflecting the needs of the parish.I quickly discovered that my idea of christianity was not the norm but to find out this i had to travel 100 miles away from home to discover the truth.I was resident in a adult catholic college for two years.It was the time of the miners strike and i became ostracised amongst the southern faithful especially after i became an activist .So it is absurd to state that the church is predominantly socialist Much research validates the role of the church as an institution propping up amoral right wing regimes which is probably why it has survived for so long
I agree there is a lot of outdated nonsence peddled by the church such as sex before marriage stuff (by the way my missis is not a catholic and believes in no sex after marriage) but as you are so down on lefties consider this .The soviet union repressed people practicing various faiths for fifty years with barbarism at its worst yet they survived .Your suggestion to close faith schools which are part of our heritage would strengthen not weaken our resolve.
Finally you assume i have a bob or two and can afford to splash the cash .How do you know i don't ?I will shortly be taking part in strike action as i have not had a pay rise in over 5 years so i may not be able to continue my charitable contributions .Maybe you would like take over my contributions comrade as the charity concerned is a non faith childrens one
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RD
I hope you didn't take my post as a personal attack. Wasn't the intention.
We have a different slant on the tactics, but I think both of us want to see the extremists isolated and hounded, and the moderates supported and encouraged to continue to become key parts of our society.
My take is that it's a long, long process. On the issue of that opinion poll, there were many aspects that were extremely promising on the issue of assimilation and integration, especially given the context that it was taken at the very height of the Iraq War/Guantanamo.
Which is not to say that there aren't huge problems too. But my worry is that when intelligent people focus only on the negatives, it feeds the attitudes of those who want stupid, dangerous responses to the situation, like our resident idiot here.
Don't worry BST, I didn't take it that way. It wasn't meant to read that way.
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Take it from me that you lost the debate. I have weighed up your case and have decided I was right all along.
My background doesn't matter. If I do have a similar background to you does that not make my case stronger? I have shaken off the brainwashing shackles and you have to some extent. It's not a big leap from agnostic to aetheist. You need to think a bit more about the absurdities of all religions and you will soon come to the conclusion that they are all extremely silly. Aethism is the only rational conclusion to come to. Why is it that aetheists are predominantly very intelligent and believers are for the most part a bit thick or lacking in education?
I think you'll find the Bible is a collection of fairy stories by many people not just one person. It is an extremely silly book. How anyone can take it seriously is beyond me.
Allowing faith schools to continue means children are still being brainwashed, particularly in the Muslim community. Christian schools are no way near as bad as they used to be and I would go as far as to say the C of E isn't far off the model I espouse.
Allowing faith schools allows children to be separated and stops different cultures from mixing. That is a crime and overrides all other considerations such as bullying which can easily be sorted out. The big picture is far more important. Get more faiths mixing and you will find that before long their will be a lot more aetheists about and the country would be a much better place.
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It's great to have freedom of speech but to use that freedom with respect for others will make for a more much more pleasant and peaceful world.
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Allowing faith schools allows children to be separated and stops different cultures from mixing.
This is the pertinent point. I know faith schools have an obligation to take a proportion of kids from other backgrounds but still, I don't think you can get away from this.
I do think we should be like the French and keep religion out of school and left to the church/temple/mosque/synagogue.
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It's great to have freedom of speech but to use that freedom with respect for others will make for a more much more pleasant and peaceful world.
I think we need to be offensive occasionally. We need satire to hold politicians and those with power in society up to ridicule. And those pious, finger wagging blokes with long beards shouldn't be exempt from that.
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/12/saudi-arabia-snowmen-winter-fatwa?CMP=fb_gu
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/12/saudi-arabia-snowmen-winter-fatwa?CMP=fb_gu
This bloke would take a lumping hammer to Michelangelo's statue of David.
The strict outlawing of images of Mohammed or it seems any human form is a relatively new thing. The British museum have quietly put away all their artwork featuring images of the prophet for fear of them upsetting Islamic sensibilities. Despite most of it being created by Islamic artists.
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Is a snow penis permittable under Islam?
(http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/images/localpeople/ugc-images/275789/binaries/SnowPenis.jpg)
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Is a snow penis permittable under Islam?
(http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/images/localpeople/ugc-images/275789/binaries/SnowPenis.jpg)
As long as its not for profit
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That looks like a Jewish penis not a Gentile.😳
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Wonder if this fella was thinking of Father Ted? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/pope-francis-limits-to-freedom-of-expression (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/15/pope-francis-limits-to-freedom-of-expression)
So the cartoonists deserved it did they?
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I just read that report from Pope Francis and I think he makes a valid point. The Pope already takes plenty of abuse himself. The point he makes about personal insult of a person's mother might be deserving of a smack in the mouth is valid. He is in no way justifying the murderers of the Hedbo journalists though, merely pointing out that many people can be deeply offended by disrespectful words and drawings of people and things they hold dear. Take care.
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I think that all known extremists should be rounded up and interred without charge, people such as that Asghar Bukhari who was on Sky news yesterday, desperate times require desperate measures, moderate muslims should be encouraged to gain back control of their faith
Totally agree. These nutters in France were known to the police. No way should they have been allowed out on the streets with their records. We should have zero tolerance for any Muslim extremism. Better to be safe than sorry.
I'll make a bet now. There will be an atrocity in the UK and the perpetrators will already have a track record that most people would think should mean that should have been locked up. While ever they display extremist tendencies then they should never be allowed out. We are far too soft.
Moderate Muslims know who these nutters are. They should be much more proactive in giving them up. We should be far more proactive in locking them up and throwing away the key. If it was up to me they would all be executed as a deterrent and to make me feel better.
One thing that should happen is that the Muslims should march through London displaying banners of the cartoons of the prophet from the French magazine. By doing this they would display that they believe in free speech which currently the vast majority of them don't. It won't happen though.
Well, you'd be rounded up then IC1969 you're proper extreme in your views . Nutter.
P.S. does anyone really say "leftie"?
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I think that all known extremists should be rounded up and interred without charge, people such as that Asghar Bukhari who was on Sky news yesterday, desperate times require desperate measures, moderate muslims should be encouraged to gain back control of their faith
Totally agree. These nutters in France were known to the police. No way should they have been allowed out on the streets with their records. We should have zero tolerance for any Muslim extremism. Better to be safe than sorry.
I'll make a bet now. There will be an atrocity in the UK and the perpetrators will already have a track record that most people would think should mean that should have been locked up. While ever they display extremist tendencies then they should never be allowed out. We are far too soft.
Moderate Muslims know who these nutters are. They should be much more proactive in giving them up. We should be far more proactive in locking them up and throwing away the key. If it was up to me they would all be executed as a deterrent and to make me feel better.
One thing that should happen is that the Muslims should march through London displaying banners of the cartoons of the prophet from the French magazine. By doing this they would display that they believe in free speech which currently the vast majority of them don't. It won't happen though.
Well, you'd be rounded up then IC1969 you're proper extreme in your views . Nutter.
I think you'll find I espouse the views of the silent majority. I defy you to show anything I've said that is extreme. Everything I say is common sense.
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I just read that report from Pope Francis and I think he makes a valid point. The Pope already takes plenty of abuse himself. The point he makes about personal insult of a person's mother might be deserving of a smack in the mouth is valid. He is in no way justifying the murderers of the Hedbo journalists though, merely pointing out that many people can be deeply offended by disrespectful words and drawings of people and things they hold dear. Take care.
The Pope is a decent bloke. Far better than any Pope I can remember. However anything that is ridiculous should be held up to ridicule. Religion is ridiculous.
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Ha, ha IC 1967, I would have thought that this pope would have been far too much of a socialist for your taste!
Good luck!
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Is a snow penis permittable under Islam?
(http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/images/localpeople/ugc-images/275789/binaries/SnowPenis.jpg)
As long as its not for profit
When did mad mick take a selfie ? :-)
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Another example of a religious nutter,give the video a view http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/pastor-i-punched-a-kid-as-hard-as-i-could-for-not-taking-the-lord-serious/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/pastor-i-punched-a-kid-as-hard-as-i-could-for-not-taking-the-lord-serious/)