Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on June 12, 2015, 09:44:38 am
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-33091675
"If this happened now, absolutely the IPCC would be investigating it," she said."But what we can't do is wind back time to go back 30 years and redo what perhaps should have been done then."
Great eh?
You can be involved in a concerted attempt to lie and pervert the course of justice in order to get innocent men convicted of riot and sent to prison for up to 20 years, but if you can hold out for long enough, it will be brushed under the carpet.
Justice, British style.
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Agreed. Such a pathetic cop out. And what's more, she delivered that with a straight face.
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It's a scandal!
Does the same logic apply if you murder someone and the same passage of time occurs?
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Or the buggers who did kiddy fiddling 30 years ago and who are now being hauled before the beaks?
BobG
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What about the miners that did attack the police? Are the police chasing them, no. Best leave alone I think. Not that many on here would agree.
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Exactly. They are lifting that carpet plenty high to sweep it all under. I wonder who is implicated here. My guess is the order to proceed with extreme prejudice came from Thatcher herself. We wouldn't want the Iron Lady's memory tarnishing now, would we?
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What about the miners that did attack the police? Are the police chasing them, no. Best leave alone I think. Not that many on here would agree.
You've fallen for the BBC's edited version of events, the Police charged and weilded battons on a peaceful picket, the Miners acted in self defence and preservation
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What about the miners that did attack the police? Are the police chasing them, no. Best leave alone I think. Not that many on here would agree.
You've fallen for the BBC's edited version of events, the Police charged and weilded battons on a peaceful picket, the Miners acted in self defence and preservation
And those from many yards back throwing bricks were acting in self defence? Don't think so, both side have a lot to answer for, if the police are pursued, then so should the miners who acted illegally that day.
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Missing the point lads.
There WERE miners who were arrested and prosecuted for riot. The prosecutions collapsed because the police evidence was concocted and fabricated. That is prima facie evidence of a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. No one has ever been held to account for that. There has never been an investigation. The decision today means that there won't be an investigation. So whoever was behind the conspiracy has got away with it.
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There is already a comprehensive thread on this issue so why are you starting a new one?
Hang on. I know. It's because I gave the other side of the story and conclusively proved IT WAS THE MINERS THAT STARTED IT!!!
Gloster is right. There was right and wrong on both sides and its best now if we let the miners and police off with any any wrongdoing that occurred 30 years ago.
The country is massively in debt. The last thing we need to do is borrow some more money to pay for a public inquiry into something that most of us couldn't care less about.
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=245451.0
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And Gloster, just a few other things:
I personally saw a peaceful picket at Rosso Main. The cops had linked arms and were holding the miners behind their 'line'. Pleasant enough; banter between the cops and the miners, quite a decent atmosphere. And then a car rolled up. Out stepped a cop with about 4 tons of gold braid, issues a few orders, and the cops in the line started swinging their big heavy boots into the shins of the miners behind them. Result? Pandemonium. I saw that myself. Yet it was the miners who got the blame of course.
Or the events at Armthorpe. Another picket. Another demo. Another riot. Only this time the miners all legged it and the cops went flying around after them. Well, there was a headmaster who lived pretty well opposite the main gate at Markham Main. He was standing in his front garden watching. The cops charged. He retreated indoors. The cops then proceeded to bust his front door in, screech into his house demanding to know where an alleged runaway miner was and threatened him with arrest if he told a single soul what he'd seen just 5 minutes before. He, stout fellow, refused to give the promise they demanded. So they whacked him.
Or, my old man, he was a JP in Donny. He came home one evening after a session on the bench saying that he'd had a young lad up in front of him that afternoon. The sort of lad, he said, you wouldn't mind your daughter marrying. The charge? That one tyre on his car was under inflated by 2 psi. The hidden agenda? He was a miner. Case dismissed.
Or the time the father of a mate of mine was driving down past ICI Fibres on his way to work. He was minding his own business, enjoying a sunny morning actually. A copper stepped out into the road in front of him with his hand up to stop. So he stopped. Copper opens the door, reaches in, switches off the engine and takes the ignition key. 'What the hell...?!" "You're nicked. Come with me". My mates dad then spent all morning and most of the afternoon in the cells at Donny nick while the plod failed to work out that the aeroplane in the sky had defective binoculars. They were reading number plates, nicking miners. My mates dad worked on the railways.... No apology. No nothing.
The coppers were as bent as a nine bob note during that strike - and I'm bloody sure, in my own mind, that it was politically inspired. And that's why this review could never be allowed to happen.
BobG
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Bob
I've mentioned before on here a bloke I used to play cricket with. Rough as a bear's arse but absolutely straight, honest and hardworking.
He was arrested for riot in the first week of the Strike. Had the charge hanging over him for 18 months. Lost his job (wasn't allowed back to work after the strike because of this arrest). Marriage broke up under the stress. He ended up doing Auf Wiedersehn type jobbing work in London and drinking heavily. Died at 40 years old.
And the riot charge? Oh aye. It was dropped and no prosecution was ever brought.
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My Father in Law lived 50 yards from the end of Hatfield pit lane, he still does. He was a Foreman at Rockware Glass, every morning at 5am going to work on Days he was given the 3rd degree by the Cops, every morning at just after 6am coming off nights he was stopped from getting home, they forced him to leave his car and walk home through the backs, they never did tell him what crime he was committing in his attempt to get home from work!
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Actually, there's another angle to all this isn't there? I, at least, simply do not trust police. Individually, they can be really great people. Supportive, caring, responsive. Collectively? Well, let's just remember Jean Charles de Menezes. How many people is it this last 25 years that have been shot and killed erroneously by the police? It's a staggeringly big number. How many people have been prosecuted as a result? Err. None.
I don't trust the police. Yet, I'm a middle aged, middle class bloke. I ought to be part of the bedrock of those that support law 'n' order in this country. But I don't. An enquiry like this one the politicians have refused simply reinforces the negative impressions of the police as a group that have littered my life. from Hillsborough (remember the wonderfully convenient disappearance, on the very day of the disaster, of the official film of the events of that awful day? Wonder how that might have happened? Or who might have been responsible?) to Orgreave, Menezes to the guy with the chair leg on Tottenham Court Road or the guy in bed in Brighton, or the guy in the car at a roundabout in Coventry, all shot dead for no reason at all, that git who pushed that fellow over, and killed him during the G8 (or whatever summit it was), Rosso Main to 'sus', and a million more besides, the police are not worthy of our support. They have not earned it. They get it only through fear and desperation. Not through service or honesty or public spiritedness.
This enquiry would have gone a reasonable way to dispel some of that distrust. But no. Can't have the establishment shown up for lying b*****ds can we?
BobG
Update: Police have shot and killed 44 people in this country since 1985. 35 people since 1995. Another 5 were killed in a riot in Armagh in 1969. Some of these people were undoubtedly armed and dangerous. But some, equally undoubtedly, were not. And in no case has anyone ever been convicted despite some atrocious circumstances. Just one example: an unarmed guy, in bed, naked, with his girlfriend. Shot dead. No one has ever been required to answer for that in a court of law.
There is a very long term conspiracy around the police in this country. Think about it,. How often are they ever found to have been in the wrong on matters of serious importance? Hillsborough is one where they have been found to be in the wrong - yet it took 25 years and the efforts of thousands and thousands of people to get this country to notice. No one has ever paid a price for shooting, killing, unarmed people. Yes. People. They've shot and killed women too. No one ever notices that since about 1995 the rate of killings has been, and continues, to escalate at a huge rate. We continue, decade after decade, to allow the police to get away with murder more and more frequently. And I mean that phrase in every single way you read it.
I've got a cracking photograph of a sign put up by the staff at Notting Hill Gate tube station on 26th July 2005. It was on one of those white boards they use. It said:
Date: 26th July
Time: All day
Notice to all passengers
Please do NOT run on the platforms or concourses. Especially if you are carrying a rucksack, wearing a big coat or look a bit foreign. This notice is for your own safety. Thank you.
Just think about that. What sort of circumstances is it that would prompt a set of railway employees to put up a notice like that? It's shameful.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-33091675
"If this happened now, absolutely the IPCC would be investigating it," she said."But what we can't do is wind back time to go back 30 years and redo what perhaps should have been done then."
Great eh?
You can be involved in a concerted attempt to lie and pervert the course of justice in order to get innocent men convicted of riot and sent to prison for up to 20 years, but if you can hold out for long enough, it will be brushed under the carpet.
Justice, British style.
Would be put down as mere "high spirits" nowadays, police haven't the minerals to act like that nowadays!!!
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Look. You leftie nutters need to get behind our boys and girls in blue. They do an amazing job for which we should all be grateful.
Trying to undermine their morale by slagging them off all the time is reprehensible behaviour.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Or the buggers who did kiddy fiddling 30 years ago and who are now being hauled before the beaks?
BobG
Yep, peadophiles are being arrested and convicted of events that happened up to 50 years ago, and rightly so. Nazi war criminals can be tried and convicted of crimes that happened in other Country's over 70 years ago. What makes the 30 year passage of time a barrier to the Orgreave events?
Possibly the fact that it was a Tory Government at the time and they were directing operations and violence against the Miners?
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You lefties would have more credibility if you also wanted the miners that started the whole thing off investigated and prosecuted as well. Of course you don't. You are just bothered about painting the police as the villains of the piece and the miners as the saints.
Let's recall what actually happened. The miners bombarded the Police with bricks and stones. This is what started the whole confrontation off. A few officers may have used excessive force, but they were under extreme provocation.
Given this was what happened I think it's fair that no further action is taken against the guilty miners and the guilty Police.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (the one and only)
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Filo
Especially when conspiracy to pervert the course of justice is one of the most serious offences in the book. If you turn a blind eye to police conspiring to pervert the course of justice, you're on the slipperiest of slopes.
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You lefties would have more credibility if you also wanted the miners that started the whole thing off investigated and prosecuted as well. Of course you don't. You are just bothered about painting the police as the villains of the piece and the miners as the saints.
Let's recall what actually happened. The miners bombarded the Police with bricks and stones. This is what started the whole confrontation off. A few officers may have used excessive force, but they were under extreme provocation.
Given this was what happened I think it's fair that no further action is taken against the guilty miners and the guilty Police.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (the one and only)
You know nothing fella, I presume you watched all the reverse films and stuff and make your assumptions from that .......Love from somebody who knows from an angle that may surprise you :) and no I'm not clarifying any further however I wasn't in the police ...........
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You lefties would have more credibility if you also wanted the miners that started the whole thing off investigated and prosecuted as well. Of course you don't. You are just bothered about painting the police as the villains of the piece and the miners as the saints.
Let's recall what actually happened. The miners bombarded the Police with bricks and stones. This is what started the whole confrontation off. A few officers may have used excessive force, but they were under extreme provocation.
Given this was what happened I think it's fair that no further action is taken against the guilty miners and the guilty Police.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (the one and only)
You know nothing fella, I presume you watched all the reverse films and stuff and make your assumptions from that .......Love from somebody who knows from an angle that may surprise you :) and no I'm not clarifying any further however I wasn't in the police ...........
I know enough to know there was wrongdoing on both sides. You lefties make my piss boil in that you only criticise the Police. Let's have a bit of balance. You do know that half a million pounds of taxpayers money was paid to the miners as compensation. That's not a bad result for them as far as I'm concerned. The injured Police got nothing.
Go figure.
IC1967 (the one and only)
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You lefties would have more credibility if you also wanted the miners that started the whole thing off investigated and prosecuted as well. Of course you don't. You are just bothered about painting the police as the villains of the piece and the miners as the saints.
Let's recall what actually happened. The miners bombarded the Police with bricks and stones. This is what started the whole confrontation off. A few officers may have used excessive force, but they were under extreme provocation.
Given this was what happened I think it's fair that no further action is taken against the guilty miners and the guilty Police.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (the one and only)
You know nothing fella, I presume you watched all the reverse films and stuff and make your assumptions from that .......Love from somebody who knows from an angle that may surprise you :) and no I'm not clarifying any further however I wasn't in the police ...........
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=252813.msg548215#msg548215
DR. That means EVERYBODY!
He is incapable of forming and following a logical argument. In this case, the issue is that miners WERE arrested and prosecuted and that the prosecutions failed because of what (on the face of it) appears to be strong evidence of criminal activity by the police. The issue is not about who chucked rocks and who stoved in heads. It is about whether a concerted criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice should be prosecuted or swept under the carpet.
Our resident idiot cannot cope with logic like that, so he skews the discussion to something else. THAT is why it is important that we simply ignore him and wait for him to vanish in a cloud of boiled piss.
Just keep schtum and ignore him.
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Careful Billy, BobG will be pouncing soon on your incorrect use of capital letters for "resident idiot"! ;)
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You lefties would have more credibility if you also wanted the miners that started the whole thing off investigated and prosecuted as well. Of course you don't. You are just bothered about painting the police as the villains of the piece and the miners as the saints.
Let's recall what actually happened. The miners bombarded the Police with bricks and stones. This is what started the whole confrontation off. A few officers may have used excessive force, but they were under extreme provocation.
Given this was what happened I think it's fair that no further action is taken against the guilty miners and the guilty Police.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (the one and only)
You know nothing fella, I presume you watched all the reverse films and stuff and make your assumptions from that .......Love from somebody who knows from an angle that may surprise you :) and no I'm not clarifying any further however I wasn't in the police ...........
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=252813.msg548215#msg548215
DR. That means EVERYBODY!
He is incapable of forming and following a logical argument. In this case, the issue is that miners WERE arrested and prosecuted and that the prosecutions failed because of what (on the face of it) appears to be strong evidence of criminal activity by the police. The issue is not about who chucked rocks and who stoved in heads. It is about whether a concerted criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice should be prosecuted or swept under the carpet.
Our resident idiot cannot cope with logic like that, so he skews the discussion to something else. THAT is why it is important that we simply ignore him and wait for him to vanish in a cloud of boiled piss.
Just keep schtum and ignore him.
Who the feck do you think you are telling people what to do and then having a go at them if they partake in a debate. You are a total loser. You only want your voice and opinion to prevail. If DR has some evidence that the 10,000 miners didn't start it the we are all ears.
You twist the debate and take it totally out of context. What started the confrontation is crucial to the debate. Many of the 10,000 miners weren't there to picket peacefully as you well know. Some of them started chucking bricks, bottles etc at the heavily outnumbered Poilce. Did you expect them to just take it? If you'd just seen your mate with a stoved in head from a brick thrown by a miner do you not think you'd be a bit annoyed?
The Police did what they did to stop further colleagues being attacked. It got out of hand. There was wrongdoing on both sides. The miners got half a million (a lot of money in those days). The Police got nothing. No miner was convicted for any wrongdoing.
Get over it and accept that there has been a rough justice and we don't need to dig up the past. If you insist on it then may I suggest the guilty miners are brought forward. The decent miners know who they are. Until that happens may I suggest you back off the Police and move on.
You are a typical leftie that only sees things one way. If people don't wholeheartedly support your view you can't handle it. It's time you grew up.
The voice of reason will not be silenced.
IC1967 (the one and only)
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Hey Nick :)
There is most definitely a certain method in that particular madness! And no. I won't be aiming any such barbs at others - just the buffoon who thinks he has sufficient knowledge and intelligence to enter into discussion with grown men. When he learns how to use capital letters his high horse will begin to look slightly less bizarre. But he is our Resident Idiot after all. Do you reckon he'll ever learn?
Cheers
Bob
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Well, let's just remember Jean Charles de Menezes.
I was at a meeting in York that day. I've never felt so in fear of my life that day as I did travelling home. Not from "foreign looking" chaps with backpacks, but from armed Police all over York Railway Station and clearly on edge, looking everyone in the eyes. I just felt one wrong glance could be all it took to take a bullet.
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Would IC1967 care to confirm whether or not he has a relative in the police force by any chance?
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Would IC1967 care to confirm whether or not he has a relative in the police force by any chance?
He is the police,along with being a multimillionaire and local UKIP leading representative although i'm not so sure seeing as he obviously gets his political education from watching Jade Goody
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Would IC1967 care to confirm whether or not he has a relative in the police force by any chance?
He is the police,along with being a multimillionaire and local UKIP leading representative although i'm not so sure seeing as he obviously gets his political education from watching Jade Goody
Look. If you're not careful you'll have daft Bob after you. You need to make sure you have a space between each word. Your drivel should also be two sentences not one. You should also make sure you end each sentence with a full stop. However, your biggest crime and the one that will have daft Bob spitting feathers is your failure to use capital letters properly. i'm should be I'm.
One other thing. Jade died years ago from cancer. She was a typical Labour voter. So we had nothing in common.
IC1967 (the one and only)
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I take it that's a yes then. A member of Humberside Constabulary who posts on here from time to time I believe?
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Are we close to finding out who Mad Mick actually is then Wilts?
Get in.
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My understanding, Gaz, is that there is quite a significant handful of folk on here who do know the real identity of our Resident Idiot. I don't. But then, I would be ashamed to know someone as foolish as that plonker.
And if he is a copper, he has amply confirmed all my thoughts, developed through experience gathered over decades, about the mental capacity of our wonderful police.
Cheers
BobG
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At risk of upsetting everybody...The right descision was made...There is no point in dragging something up that achieves little..It was so long ago and things have moved on so much that it would be a waste of money and no lessons would be learnt..Of course there was grave crimes committed by the police
I must also say that some of you need to have a bit of realism about you...I have lots of friends and work mates who took part in these pickets over yourkshire and the stories they tell of what they were instructed to do by the NUM reps travelling around picket lines in there mini buses was just as bad if not worse ...So lets not try and portray everyone was just peacefully demonstrating because they weren't....
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At last. Another voice of reason.
Its so typical of the lefties that they see the issue as black or white. They only see the wrongdoing of the police and completely ignore the wrongdoing of the miners.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
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Wing Co
1) Wrongdoing on both sides. That is a non sequitur. I've pointed out before (and people who don't want to listen to it ignore this - I can't understand why) that dozens of miners WERE arrested and WERE prosecuted.
2) The issue is not about who hit whom, or who went OTT on the day. The issue is about what appears to have been a concerted attempted, possibly directed from very high up, to frame men by fabricating evidence in an attempt to get them sent down for a long time. Potentially for life.
3) There is no question that evidence was fabricated. That is beyond dispute.
4) If there was specific evidence against specific miners of criminal activity, they should have been prosecuted and convicted. But no genuine evidence was ever brought to court.
5) Instead, prosecutions were brought on the basis of fabricated evidence. Which raises the most serious questions. Who decided to fabricate the evidence? Who decided that those who had fabricated evidence on such a serious charge should not be disciplined or prosecuted.
Those are the issues. The IPCC has said that the SOLE reason they are not taking this further is because it happened a long time ago and that if it was more recent, they would undoubtedly be taking further action.
So the conclusion is that senior police (and politicians?) can engage in a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice in the most serious way possible, and can get away scot free if they can hold out for long enough.
You think that's fine? I think it undermines the whole concept of democratic society. It's ironic that this decision has been made in the same year that we are celebrating the 700th anniversary of Magna Carta, which was intended precisely to prevent this sort of arbitrary abuse of power against common people. We claim that as a pillar of our society and we scoff at banana republics where the authorities are let off the leash and allowed to trample over the basic principles of justice. But when it happens in our own country, if the perpetrators are sufficiently influential, we turn a blind eye.
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Have you noticed how, for the very first time ever, the toothless Oversight Committee of one of the Intelligence Services has come to the conclusion, just this month, that actions had been taken illegally? Now, a few things flow from that startling conclusion:
1) What prompted such a poodle of a committee to do such a thing? I've got a few suggestions, but they're only my ideas. I'm sure you can all work out your own for what is an absolutely staggering event.
2) Where was the hullaballoo in the press about behaviour, directed against individual citizens of this country, that was agreed by a committee of the House of Commons, to be illegal? Well, there wasn't one was there? Again, why?
3) What does 2) and its reasons say about the value placed upon the rule of law? The rights of individuals? The moral status of those with the power to have made the decisisons to act illegally?
4) Where does Magna Carta fit in these days when these actions can be allowed to take place, eventually be grudgingly acknowledged and ultimately be hardly reported anywhere?
I keep saying it. But I'm going to say it again. There are an awful lot of people, and behaviours, in this country that are criminal, corrupt, vicious, conspiratorial and exploitative. But still we sail on blithely.
BobG
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The miners started it!!!
IC1967 (no aliases here)
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The miners started it!!!
IC1967 (no aliases here)
Funny, I don't remember them framing coppers at all.
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The miners started it!!!
IC1967 (no aliases here)
Funny, I don't remember them framing coppers at all.
You also don't remember that the police were heavily outnumbered and had bricks and bottles etc thrown at them.
I repeat - THE MINERS STARTED IT!!!
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Which as you have been told several time has got nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the thread, which is the corruption and deception of the police AFTER the event.
Your brother one of the bent coppers involved then?
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THE MINERS STARTED IT!!!
IC1967 (no aliases here)
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:zzz:
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Funny how our Resident Idiot has removed all his contact details isn't it? Not getting a tad paranoid are we Mick? Tut tut.
Bob
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Wilts you are bang out of order to suggest that I may be a bent cop involved in Orgreave. You know well that I worked for the Humberside Police I remember how we were first acquainted. If I recall I gave your son a lift from Cottingham to Doncaster and arranged a seat on a coach that I ran to the cup final at Cardiff.
I believe I treated both you and your son with the utmost respect throughout and I am disappointed that you have chosen to take such a cheap shot.
For the record I am no longer a Police Officer, I've recently retired.
I joined the Police 18 months after Orgreave so no I wasn't there neither do I know anyone who was there.
To surprise you yet further I am a member of the Labour Party.
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Funny how our Resident Idiot has removed all his contact details isn't it? Not getting a tad paranoid are we Mick? Tut tut.
Bob
Why would you want to seek out his contact details?
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Marydene
a) I dont have any children.
b) Although I know several members of the police, to my knowledge we have never met
c) I drove from Wiltshire to Cardiff
As a recently retired member of the constabulary with connections to people who were serving at the time of the miner's strike, perhaps you would care to comment on the subject of this thread? As your brother doesn't appear to wish to.
Respect to you for appearing and confirming my suspicions btw.
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I wouldn't BB. Why would anybody? What is interesting is the removal of the details that were previously present, and the possible reasons the fool had for doing so.
Cheers
BobG
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I wouldn't BB. Why would anybody? What is interesting is the removal of the details that were previously present, and the possible reasons the fool had for doing so.
Cheers
BobG
With respect, you must have seeked them out to establish that they were missing.
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Look daft Bob. I feel it is my duty to inform you that you are fast becoming the laughing stock of the forum. I'm surprised your mates haven't PM'd you to let you know. With mates like that who needs enemies.
You claim to have me on ignore. Take my advice. Ignore me. You can't handle anyone having a different opinion to you. It's pathetic. I do genuinely feel sorry for you. You must lead such a sad life if you can get so worked up about my posts (that you ignore).
Get over it for the good of your health.
IC1967 (no removal of contact details here)
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Wilts, you are a total disgrace. To imply someone that you don't even know may be a bent copper is behaviour of the most reprehensible kind.
How you've got the nerve to reply to Marydene without offering an abject apology says a lot about you.
My piss is really boiling and you have done yourself no favours on this forum. You have lost all respect from any right minded person and in future you will always be tainted by your totally unfounded, slanderous allegation.
IC1967 (my piss has turned to steam)
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No BB. Observant people notice things. And ask questions about the interesting things they observe.
In this case the absence of the information, its removal, sticks out like a sore thumb. Or hadn't you noticed it?
Bob
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No BB. Observant people notice things. And ask questions about the interesting things they observe.
In this case the absence of the information, its removal, sticks out like a sore thumb. Or hadn't you noticed?
Bob
No I haven't noticed! Where do you find the information?
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:):) Just look at the place where your name shows - to the left of each post. I wish I could draw an arrow!
Anyway, almost everyone has a picture there along with their name and a number of little icons which take you to their website, their email, their IM etc etc. Good ole Mick has taken all his away. Everything. I find that curious in the extreme. Is he paranoid? Is he afraid someone is going to get in contact with him? Is he afraid his nasty little secret will spill out? Or is he just afraid to face his fellow men?
One could, of course, consider all sorts of theories about why he's chosen just now to take this bizarre step. Remember, he's been conspicuous by his absence at least twice this last few weeks. The forum actually functioned sensibly for a change! Is his conscience troubling him at long last? Is he becoming afraid of the potential consequences of his manifold idiocy? Is he hiding from everyone, everywhere - not just on here? Whatever, he is a very inadequate man and this plainly reinforces the impression he continues to give.
Cheers!
BobG
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I've not got a personal vendetta here but how do you know if you've blocked him?
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IC1967
If you wish to take a straight question as reprehensible behaviour - that says little about my behaviour, but does continue to add weight to the theory of some people on the forum that you have something to hide.
You also appear to have overlooked Maydene's totally incorrect assertions about me - and how that reflects on the accuracy and integrity of members of the police force - which is the subject of the thread.
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Wilts, if you can't see that what you did was probably the worst piece of abuse/slander there has ever been on this forum then there is no hope for you. I should know. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of it myself from the usual suspects.
I shall proceed with dealing with you with zero respect in future.
You are the vilest human being it has been my displeasure to come across in my life (even worse than daft Bob) and you will in future be treated as such.
IC1967 (nothing to hide here)
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Aww didums...
Why did you withold from the forum that a member of your family was a member of the police force for many years?
In his time in Humberside Constabulary did Marydene Rover ever come across any instances of police corruption or wrong doing?
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I have neither confirmed or denied that Marydene is a member of my family. Marydene has neither confirmed or denied this as well. Because he occasionally supports some of my posts some of you have decided he must be related to me.
Even if he was, whether he was a police officer or not has no bearing on what I post. I post the truth. You lefties post lies to try and indulge in either Tory or police bashing.
You should be totally ashamed of yourselves..
IC1967 (one of the few honest ones on this forum)
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Aww didums...
Why did you withold from the forum that a member of your family was a member of the police force for many years?
In his time in Humberside Constabulary did Marydene Rover ever come across any instances of police corruption or wrong doing?
I don't know about that but he always seems to make an appearance when Mick decides he needs it.
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Wilts you are bang out of order to suggest that I may be a bent cop involved in Orgreave. You know well that I worked for the Humberside Police I remember how we were first acquainted. If I recall I gave your son a lift from Cottingham to Doncaster and arranged a seat on a coach that I ran to the cup final at Cardiff.
I believe I treated both you and your son with the utmost respect throughout and I am disappointed that you have chosen to take such a cheap shot.
For the record I am no longer a Police Officer, I've recently retired.
I joined the Police 18 months after Orgreave so no I wasn't there neither do I know anyone who was there.
To surprise you yet further I am a member of the Labour Party.
I smell bacon
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Wilts I will answer your questions, I did encounter corruption in the Police and over the years I have seen people demoted, sacked, required to resign and 3 or 4 sent to prison. A bent Police Officer is soon found in the Police environment.
I apologise if you do not have a Son because I was pretty sure that's how we first made contact. It may have been a nephew or other family member that went to Cardiff with me, I'm really not sure. You will know if you had a relative or friend at Hull University at the time of the Cardiff Cup Final who I assisted to get to the game. if I've got it wrong I apologise, I would ask you then how you know I worked for the Humberside Police if it wasn't anything to do with the Cardiff Cup Final.
You have asked if I knew anybody who was on duty at Orgreave , I have already answered this question but will do so again, I do not know any Police Officer that was on duty at Orgreave that day. I have never discussed that matter with any of my former colleagues either. Quite why you have taken the view that either I am or may have been a bent cop I do not know. Please feel free to enlighten me.
You have said that we have never met, I agree we haven't and I didn't suggest that we had.
Your comments are absurd and deeply offensive.
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Now it's crackling
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Marydene
Thank you very much for your honesty and insight into corruption in the police force, not all information that some posters put on here can be relied on to be honest I am afraid to say. Perhaps if you had informed your brother that you had personal knowledge that coruption and deception in the police did and does go on, then he may have taken a different view in his posts and we would not be having this conversation.
If my asking questions of why your brother refused to admit that the police as an institution, and as individuals, can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave offends you, then you must be quite sensitive. However thank you for clarifying your own personal non-involvement.
I can assure you no family member of mine had any contact with you relating to Cardiff. We may have come into contact when I lived in Hull, who knows. I met lots of people, I am sure you did too.
How did I know you worked for Humberside Police? Maybe I didn't and just guessed right? Maybe it was detective work?
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Wilts I Take grave offence that you consider that I am or may be a corrupt cop. Please feel free to let me know why you have reached this conclusion.
I'm still not sure how we know each other you clearly have links to Hull. I've been based in Hull For the last 30 years and spent 25 years in Donny before that.
If it's not Cardiff how do you know me and why do you consider me corrupt.
By the way I am no at all sensitive I have lived my entire Police career being subjected to far more abuse than you could imagine.
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Marydene
Thank you very much for your honesty and insight into corruption in the police force, not all information that some posters put on here can be relied on to be honest I am afraid to say. Perhaps if you had informed your brother that you had personal knowledge that coruption and deception in the police did and does go on, then he may have taken a different view in his posts and we would not be having this conversation.
If my asking questions of why your brother refused to admit that the police as an institution, and as individuals, can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave offends you, then you must be quite sensitive. However thank you for clarifying your own personal non-involvement.
I can assure you no family member of mine had any contact with you relating to Cardiff. We may have come into contact when I lived in Hull, who knows. I met lots of people, I am sure you did too.
How did I know you worked for Humberside Police? Maybe I didn't and just guessed right? Maybe it was detective work?
There you go again making claims about who I'm related to. What does it matter who I'm related to?
I have never refused to admit that the police as an institution and as individuals can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave. What an absurd statement. Check what I've said. The police were in the wrong so were the miners as I've said more than once.
The point I'm making is that you lefties just want the police holding to account and for all the guilty miners to get off scot free. That's my point if you had enough intelligence to work it out.
I'll say it again so you might get it this time. The police were guilty of wrongdoing and so were the miners. I'm quite happy for the incident to be consigned to the history books. Call it rough justice where the police and miners have both got away with it. Seems fair to me.
What is totally unfair is you lefties trying to paint the whole police force as corrupt and using any opportunity you can to slag them off.
IC1967 (a realist)
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Marydene
Thank you very much for your honesty and insight into corruption in the police force, not all information that some posters put on here can be relied on to be honest I am afraid to say. Perhaps if you had informed your brother that you had personal knowledge that coruption and deception in the police did and does go on, then he may have taken a different view in his posts and we would not be having this conversation.
If my asking questions of why your brother refused to admit that the police as an institution, and as individuals, can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave offends you, then you must be quite sensitive. However thank you for clarifying your own personal non-involvement.
I can assure you no family member of mine had any contact with you relating to Cardiff. We may have come into contact when I lived in Hull, who knows. I met lots of people, I am sure you did too.
How did I know you worked for Humberside Police? Maybe I didn't and just guessed right? Maybe it was detective work?
There you go again making claims about who I'm related to. What does it matter who I'm related to?
I have never refused to admit that the police as an institution and as individuals can be and have been guilty of corruption over Orgreave. What an absurd statement. Check what I've said. The police were in the wrong so were the miners as I've said more than once.
The point I'm making is that you lefties just want the police holding to account and for all the guilty miners to get off scot free. That's my point if you had enough intelligence to work it out.
I'll say it again so you might get it this time. The police were guilty of wrongdoing and so were the miners. I'm quite happy for the incident to be consigned to the history books. Call it rough justice where the police and miners have both got away with it. Seems fair to me.
What is totally unfair is you lefties trying to paint the whole police force as corrupt and using any opportunity you can to slag them off.
IC1967 (a realist)
Now it sizzling,
get the tupperware, guitar and betting slips out of harms way.
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You're a funny guy IR but I want to know why Wilts considers me be corrupt
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By the way IR you have a crackling sense of humour
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IB is pig ignorant if you ask me.
IC1967 (no corruption here)
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It's secreto
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To answer the OP Billy I think it was, I agree with you if there is evidence that the Police conducted a corrupt attempt to pervert the course of justice over Orgreave they should be prosecuted. Those that are in a position of authority such as tha Police bear a higher requirement to do he right thing than do others. In my honest opinion.
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I have already explained that Marydene. I wished to make the forum aware of why Mick may be biased on his comments regarding the police on this thread and asked him if you were involved in Orgreave. Which has been shown to have involved a great deal of police corruption. You gave a clear answer to that and a lot more besides. If you wish to read any more into it then that, fine, but you are I am afraid reading too much into the question.
If I reveal how I know who you and IC1967 are, then I will need to give away who both you are he are, which I dont believe is a wise thing. Too many nutters out there.
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Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.
Cheers
BobG
PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...
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Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.
Cheers
BobG
PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...
Look daft Bob. I think the way you have been behaving is totally ridiculous. You make an even bigger fool of yourself every time you post.
For the record I have not taken down any contact details. My account is exactly the same as its always been. Get the mods to confirm this if you don't believe me. Once you've done this I expect an immediate abject apology.
Right, I think its time to find out what the forum thinks. I will abide by the decision. Will you? I'm going to put a poll up to sort this out once and for all. You obviously are deluded enough into thinking you are popular around here. Well lets put it to the test.
IC1967 (feeling sorry for sad Bob)
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My foster brother was a pc during and at the miners strike, he'd brag that Arthur Scargill had paid for his kitchen refit from all the overtime he did during the strike. He bought into Thatcherism that the miners were "the enemy", he was happy for the paybacks he was getting. I never agreed with him on anything, certainly not over the miners strike. I saw the Police as Thatcher's Private Army during the Miners Strike.
Their behaviour at Orgreave was both despicable and unlawful, when will the Police who attached and injured miners be brought to justice?
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I knew a sergeant in the Met. He felt sorry for the miners but said some fellow officers were almost crooks.
He got injured when a miner threw a housebrick at his back and had to have time off. He still had sympathy for them though.
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Their behaviour at Orgreave was both despicable and unlawful, when will the Police who attached and injured miners be brought to justice?
The last thing the authorities want (even if they sympathise with the victims) is for a straight line to be able to be drawn from doctored statements in 1985 to doctored statements in 1989...because that will immedately call into question any convictions between those dates (and probably beyond). Any lawyers worth their salt will be all over those cases trying to get cases overturned - and who knows who might have to be let out as a result. And that is the reason I believe the current Home Secretary tried to kill off the Orgreave issue once and for all last year.
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Their behaviour at Orgreave was both despicable and unlawful, when will the Police who attached and injured miners be brought to justice?
The last thing the authorities want (even if they sympathise with the victims) is for a straight line to be able to be drawn from doctored statements in 1985 to doctored statements in 1989...because that will immedately call into question any convictions between those dates (and probably beyond). Any lawyers worth their salt will be all over those cases trying to get cases overturned - and who knows who might have to be let out as a result. And that is the reason I believe the current Home Secretary tried to kill off the Orgreave issue once and for all last year.
Well Glyn. The current Home Secretary who is deffinately no lover of the Police, tried to stop a further action, this time Orgreave, which I have stated on another thread. The IPCC have made their decision on whether or not there should be an enquiry until after the decision of the jury in the Inquest made their decision, it is now that time, it is the IPCC who are delaying.
I just hope that they run Orgreave when 10,000 miners faced 5,000. First question...."Why were there 10,000 there in the first place that caused the confrontation.
Question two. What was hoped it would gain. Maybe a member of the NUM at the time may answer. Before we have any crap about me...I worked at Armthorpe Police Station.during the strike and played rugby right through it with Markham RUFC (Pit Team and mainly miners) They did their thing and I did mine. I went to jobs in the middle of the night and as soon as I got out of the car the bricks came flying. I was there when a group of brave boys dragged a single female out of a Police car and nocked shit out of her. So let me just get that bit in first, before we have talk of corruption. You kick a dog too many times and he will bite you. Well the Police bit back
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Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.
Cheers
BobG
PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...
Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.
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Well the Police bit back
If by biting back the police fabricated evidence then as you sow so shall ye reap.
I'm not getting into who did what at Orgreave, I don't know and I don't care.
What I do care about is that if it can be shown that fabricating or doctoring evidence wasn't just a one-off in 1989 but had already been done in 1985, it starts looking like a standard practice and every conviction based upon SYP evidence in between those dates can be argued to be unsafe. The possible consequences of that are horrendous and have an outcome way beyond just the events of Orgreave and Hillsborough; and affect society as a whole not just policemen, miners and/or football supporters.
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Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.
Cheers
BobG
PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...
Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.
It's not you he's talking about, it's another forum user.
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Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.
Cheers
BobG
PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...
Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.
It's not you he's talking about, it's another forum user.
Thanks for clearing that up. On your previous post. You will not find me disagreeing. If it was corrupt practice then the corrupt should suffer the consequences. Police biting back, I refer to acting against those at Orgreave who were throwing the hail of bricks, Several died in the Miners strike, two, it was proven beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT were cause by the actions of miners, one at Ollerton and one in Wales with bricks being thrown at passing cars below of miners who had returned to work, the first at Ollerton was on picket duty and IF I REMEMBER correctly was hit from the back by a brick, no doubt someone on this forum may know better, but at Ollerton the Police from various forces were facing the pickets
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Marydean. I think perhaps you might benefit from reading Wilts post again. He doesn't say, anywhere, that you are corrupt. Even if he thought you were, he's smart enough, and wise enough, to avoid such a crass stupidity. I have no idea what he thinks on that subject btw. take a deep breath, read his post again. It's simple, lucid, intelligent and asks a few questions. That's it.
Cheers
BobG
PS WIlts: I think Mick's real identity is circulating pretty widely now. Maybe that's why he ran scared and took down all the details about how folk could contact him...
Which Mick are we talking about, Everybody can see my profile, everybody is welcome to my door if they wish and if directed at me. I do not run scared.. If you are not referring to me please clarify and I will apologise.
It's not you he's talking about, it's another forum user.
That's correct. This post has been resurrected from 2015 and the Mick we are refering to was a somewhat contrary and argumentative poster around at the time. In this thread he was discussing the conduct of the police and police corruption, without revealing that his brother had been a serving police officer and played a (minor) role in a corruption investigation and trial.
His brother was somewhat more honest and forthright, like yourself Bally. Maybe its an ex-police thing. I dont always agree with what you say, but I do believe you are being honest and truthful in expressing your opinions and making an interesting debate.
Carry on now...
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Thank you.
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On your previous post. You will not find me disagreeing. If it was corrupt practice then the corrupt should suffer the consequences.
My point was that it won't be just the corrupt that would suffer...even if evidence gathering was carried out according to the proper practice at the time, any convictions dependent upon SYP evidence could be argued to be unsafe because of evidence being fabricated by the SYP on an apparently routine basis - and God knows who may get released from prison as result. And who migh suffer from that? - it's the public at large, who may be endangered, because you know as well as I do that innocence would not need to be shown but merely that a conviction was unsafe.
How would you feel if you'd collared a murderer or rapist that was let out under such circumstances?
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I collared a rapist on 31.12 1974 just 2 months after being on the beat. He raped someone I grew up with at knife point. I found him and bearing in mind we were told that he had a knife, where it was and he went for it. He got some Ballism which was mentioned at the trial, plus his wife left him taking his child, all put forward by defence, so although he went to prison for rape..(Because of the circumstances) he only served 2 years. I still see that lady around Hatfield.
That is just one. I know what you are saying and I agree totally with you. I am also aware of the grounds that are going to be put forward ref Orgreave, but again "Why were there 10,000 striking miners there and what was the objective. It was weeks of confrontation and it was the day of the show down, just like 14th February 1980 was at The Vulcan Road Sheffield in Steel Strike. We can go on for ever but it is not going to help. Now yesterday in Germany the tactics used by the Police were accepted so as is....God only knows what uproar there would be in dear old Blighty.. In the case of Hillsborough. People died because of a bag of wind. The miners strike and Orgreave was caused by two individuals. Scargill and Thatcher. Everybody else was a pawn in their argument. AND WHAT HAS BEEN GAINED ?
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As I said, I don't know what happened at Orgreave and don't care - it's completely irrelevant to the point I'm making. Unless you think that 10,000 miners being there (if indeed there were) is grounds enough for the fabricating of evidence by the organisation which is supposed to be the model of probity and integrity and which is supposed to uphold the Law and not flout it (which is the only thing I do care about because of the possible consquences I've alrady mentioned)?
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10,000 is the figure banded about since the day. Like you I do not care. But as many believe it was just SYP there, nope there were many forces sending Police, and I will tell you what that nobody has mentioned recently, the fact that there were soldiers there in Police Uniforms. Lets go the whole hog. Are you aware of the grounds where corruption is alleged
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10,000 is the figure banded about since the day. Like you I do not care. But as many believe it was just SYP there, nope there were many forces sending Police, and I will tell you what that nobody has mentioned recently, the fact that there were soldiers there in Police Uniforms. Lets go the whole hog. Are you aware of the grounds where corruption is alleged
No, I don't know if any evidence was fabricated, all I know is that it has been alleged - which to me makes it merit investigation. However, I'm worried about the big picture if it is proven to have taken place. I'm also worried about what will happen if the allegations are just brushed aside or buried because like Hillsborough it will just fester on and on without resolution.
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Well then. Like other retired SYP I welcome the IPCC to carry out enquiry.
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I AM aware of evidence being fabricated. It's in record from the collapsed proceedings against the miners who were on trial for riot. It's the reason the trials collapsed.
There were police statements where officers claimed to have witnessed certain actions by striking miners at certain times in the picket line at Orgreave. But the police log books showed categorically that, at the times in question, those officers were waiting in Sheffield city centre to be bussed out to Orgreave.
That is as smoking a gun as you could wish to find.
Then there are the more circumstantial bits of evidence. Other police statements, describing how, allegedly, the trouble was started by the miners. 31 statements using IDENTICAL sentences to described what happened. Coppers going on record stating that they were told what to write by senior officers whom they had never seen before.
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When in Rome. Do as the Romans do...Let us just wait.
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Surely you do not mean you believe SYP Logbooks especially after this week. But let the ones who represent the Government make the decisions eh, no good you and I going head to head for ever
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As an aside to this I was a manager working in North Yorkshire during the strike, when members of the NUM started to return to work a number of pickets were arrested after following one of the buses taking the workers home. Having had their car searched a number of tools etc were found in the vehicle, it was common for tools etc to be "borrowed" for home use. I received a call from Pontefract police one evening asking if I could call in to identify some items as being British Coal property. None of the items were marked as B.C. property and could easily have been purchased by the accused, in all probability they were B.C. property but the main item they wanted me to identify was a pick axe handle. After stating that it could be B.C. property I was repeatedly asked to confirm that it WAS B.C. property which I refused to do insisting that it COULD be but not certainly the officer became very annoyed with me for not doing as he wanted. I suggest that this was an attempt to fabricate evidence by the Police against the accused men in order to prosecute them for theft
As an aside the men who were arrested and charged with other offences never knew of this as I actually new them, 1 of them was a member of my workforce.
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it would not have got past the CPS never mind into a Court Room. Well done for standing up for your principles. By the way . We were not all like that.
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My Dad was a JP in Donny. He came home telling a story one evening, after a day on the Bench. Some lad, in his early 20's, had been brought up before the bench. Quite a pleasant lad my Dad said. The sort "You wouldn't mind your daughter marrying" he said. The charge? That one tyre, on this lads car, was underinflated. By 2 lbs. The Bench thought it rather odd that anybody should be brought before Court over something as daft as that. So they probed a bit. You can guess what the lads job was can't you? You don't need me telling you..... He got an absolute discharge.
Or the father of a mate of mine who worked on the railways. Driving down Carr House Road one sunny morning on his way to work, copper leaps out in front of him demanding he stop. So my mates' Dad pulled up, wound down the window and asked the obvious question. Copper leans in through the window, switches off the engine and pockets the key ring. "You're nicked" quoth he. My mates' Dad got carted off to the cop shop in town and was kept hanging about all damn day. When they did let him out, no apology, no explanation, no nothing. So he went to a solicitor and employed him to find out what was going on. Took a while, but in the end it turned out that coppers in a helicopter up high weren't as good at reading number plates as they thought they were. They were out nicking miners. On spec. No reason at all. Just that they were miners.
Or the retired headmaster who lived right opposite the pit gates in Armthorpe. He had turned to writing in his old age. On the day of the riot he watched it all from his front garden. Even had a couple of miners dash through his house as they avoided South Yorkshire's finest. He saw the coppers doing things that totally appalled him. But he made a mistake. He talked about what he'd seen and he talked about the article he was writing as a result. He was, shall we say, visited.
They've been shameful for 30 years that bunch. My best friend joined South Yorkshire police in 1975 or 1976 as he couldn't think of anything better to do at the time. He left after a couple of years. He was adamant that 80% of S Yorks coppers would be in prison if they weren't in the police. And he was equally adamant that, above all else. they wanted opportunities to beat up people. Friday and Saturday nights round town, miners gatherings - manna from heaven. Blame it all on the drunks or the miners. Get away scot free after regularly committing gbh. In a nutshell that's what happened at Orgreave. Anyone else outside the gates at Rosso pit that day they had their riot? I happened to be there that day. It was quite a pleasant gethering. The miners were chanting and protesting. The coppers were having a bit of fun. It was all good natured. Everybody was getting on fine. Nobody was getting hurt.
Then a prat with lots of gold braid turned up in his chauffeur driven black limo. Looked at what was before him, marched over to some bod, presumably in charge on the ground, and gave him orders. The order must have been passed down the line of coppers beacuse the next thing was that every policeman started kicking the heels of their boots backwards into the shins of the miners behind their line. I watched them do it. And then all hell broke out.... All the miners fault of course don't you know. I was apoplectic watching the tv reports that night.
BobG
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I was at the top of Hatfield pit lane near the pit club when the coppers batton charged a peacefull sit down picket, there was no provocation at all from the miners, but many of them got their heads cracked open, one of them spent weeks in a coma and suffered brain damage, he never worked again!
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I was at the top of Hatfield pit lane near the pit club when the coppers batton charged a peacefull sit down picket, there was no provocation at all from the miners, but many of them got their heads cracked open, one of them spent weeks in a coma and suffered brain damage, he never worked again!
Yes Filo, I know who you mean, little bloke on opposite side to school. Hated The Police ever since BUT the fishing competition I ran at Thorne every Thursday in summer holidays fromm 1999 until about 2004 he entered his son, knowing full well it was a Police organised competition He came to every single presentation night where thanks to The Delves (Pete and Derek) and all local businesses and local Anglers all the kids walked away with trophies and prizes around £100 each.
Yes I was aware of what had happened, he told me all about it but they were GMP he told me and NOT SYP, He had no problem in sitting and talking to me, as you know he was from Stainy and I am from Dunscroft, something I have never hidden and been very proud of
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BOB G.
You always strike me as an educated man who has posted many interesting threads and yes you have been told many things and seen many just as I have.
The Police doing the chasing at Armthorpe were from the GMP not South Yorkshire, I was on duty in Armthorpe Nick that day and we were told not to get involved.
The Rossington saga, yes the bobbies on the picket line that day were in part SYP but many from Visiting Forces who saw the strike to be a chance to kick shit out of Northerners. ON that day and at every issue the strikers knew it was not the local lads.
But back to Armthorpe, did the old boy tell you of the policeman from Armthorpe that used to park his Police car now and then (especially after the pickets beat up the BBC team and stole their camera) and this sole Policeman would chat to miners with his hands in his pockets and noriot gear on. I wonder. The same Policeman who actually did a deal with the miners that the camera would be found and handed in as found property which it was about 30mins after he departed.
Wee you ever told that when miners were stealing coal from the stack as reported by Security in the middle of the night just to keep their families warm that the local Police cars would approach with blues and twos as people call them blaring, just to ensure we caught nobody.
Or the night a lad was carrying a bag of coal on his bike in Beech Rd in the middle of the night, he saw a Police car dumped the bag and took off, the next morning the bag of coal was on his doorstep.
Or when the strike organisers were under threat of attack at home, the local NUM asked us to make periodic checks during the night on their homes to make sure their homes, them and their families were safe, we did that too. Two of those strike organisers played for Armthorpe FC and I do believe at one time one turned out for Donny.
Do not tar us all the same. Some retired Bobbies even save lives. You know that too
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I was at the top of Hatfield pit lane near the pit club when the coppers batton charged a peacefull sit down picket, there was no provocation at all from the miners, but many of them got their heads cracked open, one of them spent weeks in a coma and suffered brain damage, he never worked again!
Filo
I made a few appearances on the picket lines, that would have been a fitter with the initials AS.
I think it was that day when it all appeared good natured when the police lines split and "Snatch squads" darted through the opening and indiscriminately grabbed people there and dragged them back behind the lines for either arrest or a bit of a kicking.
If my memory is correct, AS had just got home from fishing, had heard the commotion and had come out into one of the alleys and was immediately set upon by the Police.
Another guy, an electrician (HH) was also collared that day and had cuffs put on his hands instead of wrists and suffered very serious injuries that as far as I'm aware left him with a permanent hand injury. despite asking for the cuffs to be put on correctly because of the pain, he was ignored and manhandled whilst incorrectly cuffed.
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I was at the top of Hatfield pit lane near the pit club when the coppers batton charged a peacefull sit down picket, there was no provocation at all from the miners, but many of them got their heads cracked open, one of them spent weeks in a coma and suffered brain damage, he never worked again!
Filo
I made a few appearances on the picket lines, that would have been a fitter with the initials AS.
I think it was that day when it all appeared good natured when the police lines split and "Snatch squads" darted through the opening and indiscriminately grabbed people there and dragged them back behind the lines for either arrest or a bit of a kicking.
If my memory is correct, AS had just got home from fishing, had heard the commotion and had come out into one of the alleys and was immediately set upon by the Police.
Another guy, an electrician (HH) was also collared that day and had cuffs put on his hands instead of wrists and suffered very serious injuries that as far as I'm aware left him with a permanent hand injury. despite asking for the cuffs to be put on correctly because of the pain, he was ignored and manhandled whilst incorrectly cuffed.
Nearly correct, AS had been out looking for wasps nests to use as fishing bait, wasp grub was all the rage in those days for catching huge nets of Chub on the Trent.
The snatch squads were depoyed to batton anyone that got in the way, and they did, the union man DD organised the sit down picket, the Police reaction was way over the top, theres plenty of pics online of that day
(http://i3.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article378420.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Image_1_for_Miners_strike_gallery_539782701.jpg)
Heres the sit down picket just before the pic above when the coppers were let loose
(http://www.aworldtowin.net/images/images570/PJMinersStrikeHatfield1August1984.jpg)
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Stockton...Yes HH a big Broadway lad who was in the documentary and would not piss on a copper if he was on fire deserved all he got the great big thug, know him well, although never had cause to argue with him at any time..You do know his uncle was a Copper, he was proud of that fact. You Remember AB on first shift back at Hatfield Main and had a heart attack and died at the bottom. My cousin he was. I was told I must not go to his funeral by other cousins. You remember the man in 1966 fell from top to bottom on a late shift on a Friday, becaise someone made a mistake with the cage. He was smashed to pieces when he hit the bottom. My uncle...We all have stories to tell.
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It really doesn't matter, Bally, how good, or how bad, individual policemen and women are. I've met some really capable, competant and pleasant ones over the years. But they pale into insignificance in the light of the catalogue of corruption, of violence and of cavalier disregard for both the rule of law and those that actually pay their wages that this thread illustrates.
You can see how powerfully those misdeeds have impacted upon the police. And upon society generally. The miners strike is 30 odd years ago now - yet SYP are still blackened by it. Hillsborough was 27 years ago yet the whole country still can't forgive anyone connected with SYP for that. Orgreave? Another shameful episode so bad that no one is prepared to forgive SYP for it. Individual well meaning acts, individual honest police, don't stand a chance against the infamy that SYP have perpetrated over 30 odd years now. The whole lot of them is tarred and they'll never get rid of it. The only answer left is to do the same as happened to the B Specials. It would be a fitting end to another police organisation that continues to be totally out of control.
Remind me how many million quid SYP have just spent defending the indefensible in Court - after previously publicly apologising for the very things they've now just wasted yet more huge amounts of cash trying to defend. That's a force, a body, that is completely out of control right at the very top.
BobG
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No Further Comment
The Office is closed for redecoration.
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I see the Chief Constable of North Yorkshire has been put in interim charge of SYP- assuming he has no skeletons in his closet!
First step towards amalgamation of the Yorkshire forces perhaps?
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It couldn't be any worse. It might be a whole heap better. Some sort of fundamental change is needed pdq so bring it on :) Looking at the tea leaves suggests that the Home Secretary is having a deep think at the moment.
BobG
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One thing i remember was when the coppers on horseback chased us up emerson avenue we ran down the backs and one of the horses tried to turn up the backs and it fell over giving the pickets chance to get there own back on the copper trying to get back on his horse.
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Well. That is frank admission if ever I heard one. suppose it is alright for the readers on here
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
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Well. That is frank admission if ever I heard one. suppose it is alright for the readers on here
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Nobody's saying it's alright, but it's not the subject at hand. Everybody who's guilty of something should be brought to account for it.
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Couple of points the Colour picture taken in Stainforth doesn't show any South Yorkshire Police officers,the guys in white shirts are Met the guys in blue shirts have Combs on their helmets,South Yorks police did not have combs.
There will never be a public enquirer whilst the Tories rule as it was a Tory Government which pulled the strings back then,Hillsborough had nowt to do with Tories,Orgreave and miners strike does.
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Well. That is frank admission if ever I heard one. suppose it is alright for the readers on here
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Nobody's saying it's alright, but it's not the subject at hand. Everybody who's guilty of something should be brought to account for it.
Not going to happen though
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Well. That is frank admission if ever I heard one. suppose it is alright for the readers on here
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Nobody's saying it's alright, but it's not the subject at hand. Everybody who's guilty of something should be brought to account for it.
Not going to happen though
Due to evidence put before a court being fabricated and destroying any police credibility regarding the event, perhaps?
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Take away the Police presence, what reason would there be for 10,000 (if newspapers can be believed) be doing at a coking plant where people were trying to make a living and lorries were being by drivers trying to make a living, so what actually were they doing. Do you know that every motorway footbridge and road bridge had to be continuously manned until the lorries got into their destination. Can you explain the need, you seem to know an awful lot.
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How many times do you have to be told..so what? This thread is about the perverting of the course of justice by someone in the SYP but no, you keep trying to evade the issue by trying to say 'the miners were guilty as well'. They may have been. I DON'T KNOW and I DON'T CARE, its irrelevant to the subject at hand.
The only way the actions or guilt of the miners would have any relevance to this thread would be if you were to argue that the fabrication of evidence was in some way BECAUSE of the actions of the miners or JUSTIFIABLE due to the actions of the miners.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-33091675
"If this happened now, absolutely the IPCC would be investigating it," she said."But what we can't do is wind back time to go back 30 years and redo what perhaps should have been done then."
Great eh?
You can be involved in a concerted attempt to lie and pervert the course of justice in order to get innocent men convicted of riot and sent to prison for up to 20 years, but if you can hold out for long enough, it will be brushed under the carpet.
Justice, British style.
There has to be statute of limitations that kicks in at some point ffs! And let's have it right some of the pockets were not exactly squeaky clean now were they? Old school policing back then and it's a pity it's not around nowadays! Just had to avoid the eleventh commandment!!!
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Well I have waited for someone to come on and say something that is sensible.
Thank you. Some just do not like the Police. In 1999 I got both a Force Award and a National Award in London from Prince Charles. Guess what it was for Glyn???
For being an old fashioned Bobby, for going where others would not, for giving plenty of knuckle out and regularly taking on 4 or 5 at once. It appears that in that era people respected proper Policing. I have never been afraid of going for a pint wherever I worked.. It was called respect. I will wait for your response then close the office for Summer so hurry up, the shutter is nearly down, But only if it is worth posting mind
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Not sure where fabricating evidence to try and get miners locked up comes into "proper policing".
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Not sure where fabricating evidence to try and get miners locked up comes into "proper policing".
I was not at Orgreave. I used to Police. Thorne. Moorends. Stainy. Armthorpe. Bawtry and Rosso on my own. Task Force. and something I will not divulge on here due to OSA. But time I closed the Office, just like Hillsborough Office for redecorating.
Que Serra Serra.
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Well I have waited for someone to come on and say something that is sensible.
Thank you. Some just do not like the Police. In 1999 I got both a Force Award and a National Award in London from Prince Charles. Guess what it was for Glyn???
For being an old fashioned Bobby, for going where others would not, for giving plenty of knuckle out and regularly taking on 4 or 5 at once. It appears that in that era people respected proper Policing. I have never been afraid of going for a pint wherever I worked.. It was called respect. I will wait for your response then close the office for Summer so hurry up, the shutter is nearly down, But only if it is worth posting mind
If it was for something that was nothing to do with what happened at Orgreave, it's not relevant. Is it?
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Just out of interest how many posting on here were directly involved with the strike or were actually at Orgreave?
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Well that brought proceedings to full stop!
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Why is it important Raven?
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It's not BST, I was just interested.
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I find this topic hard to come to a conclusion on I must admit...On one hand,even as a person who has never been in any trouble I have zero respect for the Police..They only go for easy targets who can pay fines while real criminals don't seem to get touched unless they fall into their laps...The evidence points to victimisation and foul play at Orgreave...
That said, in balance I once worked with a couple of guys who had never been a miner who claimed they and thier mates were paid to go and cause trouble on picket lines including Orgreave..He claimed a mini bus used to pick them up everyday from all over Doncaster and take them to were it was anticipated publicity might be gained the most...
30 years is a long time and I don't tend to believe there outcomes as they are politically motivated..Take Hillsbrough..2 enquiry's two different results based on what serves them best at the time,when I believe the truth meets in the middle...Emotive subjects though I appreciate...
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Wing Co
Sorry mate but you are entirely missing the point. The question at hand is nothing about who was responsible for what on the picket line. It is who was responsible for the deliberate and concerted attempt to pervert the course of justice, including fabrication of evidence that was used in an attempt to get men sent to prison, potentially for life. It's about who took the decision to instruct officers to write deliberate untruths in their statements. Who decided to have nameless senior officers dictate statements to officers.
That is a far, far bigger issue than who hit whom in a field 30 years ago. It goes to the core of our democratic institutions.
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Yes I understand your point and agree with what your saying...I just think these enquiries offer lip service with no accountability..It will be interesting to see if prosecutions and how many come out of the Hillsboro enquiry...I suspect not many...
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Don't worry if you want to see a good old fashioned blood letting you will get it when the Chilcot report is released.
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Oh yes. But only because it's popular, easy and politically convenient to have a right old go at Tony Blair. And the Labour Party will be damned by implication too.
BobG
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Looks like a head of steam building on Orgreave;
Downing Street ‘used police and courts to smear Orgreave miners’ | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/10/orgreave-miners-strike-planned-police-attack-evidence-inquiry)
This needs to be addressed, ASAP.
The Human Rights Act was very helpful in the Hillsborough case. It will also help an investigation into Orgreave, but it is under threat from the Government at the minute.
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Not in this Governments lifetime it won't.
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Looks like October for a start;
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/15/orgreave-miners-strike-inquiry-will-go-ahead
Donny Free Press has the same story.
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Well I just hope The Govt foots the entire bill or this one nd not the Rate payer of South Yorkshire.
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Amber Rudd has ruled out a Public enqiry on cost grounds there may be a small one around additional Govt papers being released, Don't hold your breathe!
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You lefties would have more credibility if you also wanted the miners that started the whole thing off investigated and prosecuted as well. Of course you don't. You are just bothered about painting the police as the villains of the piece and the miners as the saints.
Let's recall what actually happened. The miners bombarded the Police with bricks and stones. This is what started the whole confrontation off. A few officers may have used excessive force, but they were under extreme provocation.
Given this was what happened I think it's fair that no further action is taken against the guilty miners and the guilty Police.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (the one and only)
You know nothing fella, I presume you watched all the reverse films and stuff and make your assumptions from that .......Love from somebody who knows from an angle that may surprise you :) and no I'm not clarifying any further however I wasn't in the police ...........
I know enough to know there was wrongdoing on both sides. You lefties make my piss boil in that you only criticise the Police. Let's have a bit of balance. You do know that half a million pounds of taxpayers money was paid to the miners as compensation. That's not a bad result for them as far as I'm concerned. The injured Police got nothing.
Go figure.
IC1967 (the one and only)
I suppose you have got a point .We should not only criticise the police but the soldiers dressed in police uniform .Like the guy from conisbrough who was supposed to be serving in northern Ireland but came face to face with his striking miner dad hiding under a hedge. Many of them no number and under the regulation hight at the time.Of course this will never be made public as they will be used again in future strikes when the state is threatened .
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You lefties would have more credibility if you also wanted the miners that started the whole thing off investigated and prosecuted as well. Of course you don't. You are just bothered about painting the police as the villains of the piece and the miners as the saints.
Let's recall what actually happened. The miners bombarded the Police with bricks and stones. This is what started the whole confrontation off. A few officers may have used excessive force, but they were under extreme provocation.
Given this was what happened I think it's fair that no further action is taken against the guilty miners and the guilty Police.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (the one and only)
You know nothing fella, I presume you watched all the reverse films and stuff and make your assumptions from that .......Love from somebody who knows from an angle that may surprise you :) and no I'm not clarifying any further however I wasn't in the police ...........
I know enough to know there was wrongdoing on both sides. You lefties make my piss boil in that you only criticise the Police. Let's have a bit of balance. You do know that half a million pounds of taxpayers money was paid to the miners as compensation. That's not a bad result for them as far as I'm concerned. The injured Police got nothing.
Go figure.
IC1967 (the one and only)
I suppose you have got a point .We should not only criticise the police but the soldiers dressed in police uniform .Like the guy from conisbrough who was supposed to be serving in northern Ireland but came face to face with his striking miner dad hiding under a hedge. Many of them no number and under the regulation hight at the time.Of course this will never be made public as they will be used again in future strikes when the state is threatened .
The Earth is flat too! Where are all of these Sqaddies who were used in the miners strike,Not one has ever come forwards,maybe they were all gassed by Adolf Hitler in Brasil!!!
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37562740
Not sure how 'trustworthy' the reporting is, but still an unteresting read
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Nothing of interest there, I met a guy from Dorset last week who told me he had been at Orgreave,5,000 mostly retired coppers to find and interview! Mission impossible and not in the public interest due to cost.
God knows how many ex miners were there, but it will be interesting to see all of the beardy lefty t**ts come out of the woodwork.
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Nothing of interest there, I met a guy from Dorset last week who told me he had been at Orgreave,5,000 mostly retired coppers to find and interview! Mission impossible and not in the public interest due to cost.
God knows how many ex miners were there, but it will be interesting to see all of the beardy lefty t**ts come out of the woodwork.
Sporty,
Apologies if I've misinterpreted your post but are you saying ex miners are "beardy lefty t**ts"?
As an ex miner I resent the jibe and would whole heartedly welcome a full investigation irrespective of the cost. Why should wrongdoing, perverting the course of justice, political interference, media lies, etc be covered up because of cost (other than its embarrassing for the police and government.
It's things like Hillsborough and orgreave that need to be be investigated fully to prevent the institutionalised cover ups going forward.
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Stockton, my dad was a miner, his name is on the Pit wheel at Brodsworth memorial.
I refer to the beardy lefty twits who were the from Sheffield Police watch and the 300 odd from the 'Camden town action group' and all of the other numerous left wing no Gooders that were about at the time.
I have every simpathy for the Miners who were poorly led by that that self serving t**t Scargill who is still screwing what remains of the NUM for every Penny he can get.
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Stockton, my dad was a miner, his name is on the Pit wheel at Brodsworth memorial.
I refer to the beardy lefty twits who were the from Sheffield Police watch and the 300 odd from the 'Camden town action group' and all of the other numerous left wing no Gooders that were about at the time.
I have every simpathy for the Miners who were poorly led by that that self serving t**t Scargill who is still screwing what remains of the NUM for every Penny he can get.
All very interesting but none of which has any relevance whatsoever to the actions of the police at Orgreave and in subsequent descriptions of those actions. Specifically - to what orders were they acting and who gave those orders? The bloke who doesn't want the inquiry by any chance?
Our police should be there to protect us and uphold the law of the country. If they were not doing that, if indeed they were attempting to 'frame' members of the public and then lie about it afterwards, then we, the public have a right to know - whatever the cost.
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You know what makes me laugh out loud sometimes? The memory of that quaint notion that this is a 'free country'. It's utter rubbish isn't it? This year alone there's been an absolute shed load of examples of institutions acting to support institutional members at the expense of everyone else. Yet here we have an example of a public and publicly funded body ordering its employees to commit criminal offences and then acting, over decades, to pervert the course of justice - both of which seriously undermine the democratic principle - yet Sproty says it costs too much money to bother investigating. Nice one brother. Principle is sold to the lowest bidder.
BobG
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Stockton, my dad was a miner, his name is on the Pit wheel at Brodsworth memorial.
I refer to the beardy lefty twits who were the from Sheffield Police watch and the 300 odd from the 'Camden town action group' and all of the other numerous left wing no Gooders that were about at the time.
I have every simpathy for the Miners who were poorly led by that that self serving t**t Scargill who is still screwing what remains of the NUM for every Penny he can get.
All very interesting but none of which has any relevance whatsoever to the actions of the police at Orgreave and in subsequent descriptions of those actions. Specifically - to what orders were they acting and who gave those orders? The bloke who doesn't want the inquiry by any chance?
Our police should be there to protect us and uphold the law of the country. If they were not doing that, if indeed they were attempting to 'frame' members of the public and then lie about it afterwards, then we, the public have a right to know - whatever the cost.
Good god Wilts how old do you think the Police commanders at Orgreave where?
It is 32 years ago! Correct me if I'm wrong but I do believe Margaret Thatcher is dead and Peter Wright the Former Chief Constable is also pushing up Daisies.
A public enquiry will run on for a minimum of 5 years by which time 50% of all who were a Orgreave will be gone.
This will cost millions and will go nowhere.
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It's not just about those involved in Orgreave; it's about those in power right now that may think they can get away with similar despicable conspiracies.
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
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Was anybody on here actually at orgreave and did they see what happened for themselves?. What i see is bits of pictures of miners getting dragged all over or hit over the head on programmes like calendar.
It was before my time in that i was too young to understand what was going on. I have read about the awful times the miners had having little to eat, not being able to pay the bills. My local area had the soup kitchens, the presents donated for at least some sort of christmas for the kids.
I remember the local school producing dinners throughout the school holidays. At the time i didn't understand why it was happening, i was really young!.
Has it been proven that our armed forces were involved dressed up as police?. Do many of you still hold a grudge against those who went back to work early, or do you understand now the years have passed?.
My aunty has told us over the years just how tough it was just to keep them all fed, her bills had to be deferred. Do you feel any animosity towards scargill who seems to have profitted with a flat in london, or do you think he deserved it after the service he gave?.
Did it effect your families negatively in that since then nothing has been quite the same?. I'm just interested because at the time my dad had finished as a miner with his health, so we didn't feel what many of you will have done.
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃
I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃
I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!
Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉
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Sproty - I have met Wilts. He's an intelligent and interesting guy. You don't have to always agree with him to be able to see that. He and I often disagree - but it never means I can't talk to him. If you take the attitude expressed in your last post, you are cutting yourself off from a cracking source of ideas, and, intepretations. Can't you see that those two things, especially when they are different to those one holds oneself, are the most important things in the whole history of human development? My old Dad used to tell me when I was a lad "Thesis, antithesis, synthesis". In those 3 little words you have the whole history of human development as well as the concept that different points of view are the single most important element in human development.
So take Wilts on board. One can disagree yet still learn an enormous amount.
Cheers :)
Bob
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Sproty - I have met Wilts. He's an intelligent and interesting guy. You don't have to always agree with him to be able to see that. He and I often disagree - but it never means I can't talk to him. If you take the attitude expressed in your last post, you are cutting yourself off from a cracking source of ideas, and, intepretations. Can't you see that those two things, especially when they are different to those one holds oneself, are the most important things in the whole history of human development? My old Dad used to tell me when I was a lad "Thesis, antithesis, synthesis". In those 3 little words you have the whole history of human development as well as the concept that different points of view are the single most important element in human development.
So take Wilts on board. One can disagree yet still learn an enormous amount.
I agree wholeheartedly Bob,but I am not the one who seems to think that all of my 'rants' are personal attacks , they aren't, I have an opinion and. I respect other people's opinions I am not one for falling out with people, even if I don't know them from Adam!
Regards Sproty.
Cheers :)
Bob
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃
I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!
Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉
Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃
I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!
Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉
Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?
Well that ain't me babe...
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If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃
I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!
Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉
Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?
Well that ain't me babe...
If only they had listened to you before they did the Hillsborough inquiry - think of all the money they would have saved.
And the Iraq War - years ago, who cares.
It will cost as much as a new propeller for these new subs or a chimney at Hinckley Point if you want to put a price on democracy and accountability. If you are happy in an unaccountable police state, North Korea is that way.
I don't know how you can compare the worlds greatest democracy to a Parriah state like North Korea.
I'm not. I am comparing the ideology of what a state can and cannot do in your posts to that of North Korea and finding it remarkably similar.
Wilts stalker! You are mad Mick and I claim my £5 😃
I would say good luck in collecting it - but you will probably just accuse me of stalking by replying to posts aimed at me!
Sorry, I do not know who you are ,we have never met and I would like our relationship to stay that way!😉
Is this meant to be a bit of a tribute to the new recipient of the Nobel Prize for Literature?
Well that ain't me babe...
Just because you hate my posts doesn't mean I owe you anything 😎
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Sorry for butting in chaps, but, Sprotyrover you come across as a complete and utter smug tosser, im allright Jack, sniffin a pair of Thatchers worn knickers bought off Ebay, while tossing off to videos of police violence. We have never met and i would like our relationship to stay that way.
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Err Darren, would it change your opinon any if I mentioned that my post to Raven and then Sproty's post to me were both Bob Dylan quotes 'en homage' to Ravens' mention of him?
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The answer to that, is blowin in the wind.
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Oh well, you had better stop dreaming of the quiet life because its the one we'll never know...
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Thats neat, thats neat, thats neat, thats neat, i really love your tiger feet.
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I've never seen you looking so lovely as you did tonight, I've never seen you shine so bright
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It ain't me babe, no, no, no it ain't me babe, it ain't me your looking for babe. :laugh: How many roads must a rovers fan go down, before you can call him a fan?.
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Sorry for butting in chaps, but, Sprotyrover you come across as a complete and utter smug tosser, im allright Jack, sniffin a pair of Thatchers worn knickers bought off Ebay, while tossing off to videos of police violence. We have never met and i would like our relationship to stay that way.
"Thatchers Knickers'? ....please not that! 😂
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9kRd9899jGg/UJNsL6T8mEI/AAAAAAAAAB0/fJX3gxifdVA/s320/Internet+Warrior.jpg
This is my favourite selfie!
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Looking good there Spotty! :kiss:
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Looking good there Spotty! :kiss:
I usually have my 'hair in Rollers' but I was having a bad day😜
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Disgraceful decision by the Government, this is a cover up of epic proportions to protect Thatchers henchmen!
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Why did the Labour Party that was in power for, what was it, 17 years, not order an enquiry?
They are just as much to blame for no enquiry as they could have easily ordered one. They need to explain why they didn't.
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The right decision for me...
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Set a precedent for making mass wrongful arrests, police brutality and police collusion above the law. Not a great result for the union members or British people in general. "Incapacitating demonstrators" (stated in the police’s tactical manual at the time) for no reason other than they were demonstrating is ok is it?
How the hell can no policeman or commanding office be held accountable, even though compensation had been paid out by SYP? Orgreave should be the definition of conspiracy.
"Despite the forceful accounts and arguments provided by the campaigners and former miners who were present that day, about the effect that these events have had on them, ultimately there were no deaths or wrongful convictions,"
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/31/government-rules-out-orgreave-inquiry
So because there were no deaths, everything was above board was it? More like they want to preserve whatever legacy they believe Thatcher has left.
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A friend commenting on this on facebook has made a good observation:
"The Tories are making use of a Paradox here. The very people who should be banging the drum of justice, the masses of traditional industrial England and Wales have somehow leaped to the complete opposite side of the fence thanks to the shameless scaremongering of the right wing press.
Calling for justice for crimes committed by the state against those of a leftward leaning becomes a bit of a headf**k when these are the same 'lefties' that are to blame for immigrants taking their jobs, veterans homes, benefits etc. See the paradox?"
The tories have convinced the masses of the working class that it's the fault of labour and their traditional supporters that the country is in such a mess, and in doing so they can brush orgreave under the carpet because, after all, it's the same labour supporters who caused "a riot" in 1984.
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It's all very well taking the anti thatcher police brutality stance Bobjimwilly and I dare say that on this site that's a 95% held view and without doubt there is a lot of truth to that as we have seen and read...However it's noticeable that the Union apart from a few condemning words on there website is very quiet on this and it's the families who are pushing for this....Why is that?? because they are not really wanting a enquiry either because there actions are not far off as bad as the polices...I used to work with a guy that was not even a miner,paid to be bussed into Orgreave under instructions to cause trouble ..loads of them were....
The home secretary is right,nobody died,nobody was wrongfully convicted because of police fabricated evidence,and as a tax payer I cant see the justification for millions of pounds of public money to be spent on a enquiry for something that will tell us not a lot more than we already know like others ie Chillcott...and even Hillsbrough which has had 2 enquiries with 2 different end results depending on what suited best at the time....
Whilst I appreciate that this will be overwhelmingly disagreed with the right decision has been made for me...
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It's all very well taking the anti thatcher police brutality stance Bobjimwilly and I dare say that on this site that's a 95% held view and without doubt there is a lot of truth to that as we have seen and read...However it's noticeable that the Union apart from a few condemning words on there website is very quiet on this and it's the families who are pushing for this....Why is that?? because they are not really wanting a enquiry either because there actions are not far off as bad as the polices...I used to work with a guy that was not even a miner,paid to be bussed into Orgreave under instructions to cause trouble ..loads of them were....
The home secretary is right,nobody died,nobody was wrongfully convicted because of police fabricated evidence,and as a tax payer I cant see the justification for millions of pounds of public money to be spent on a enquiry for something that will tell us not a lot more than we already know like others ie Chillcott...and even Hillsbrough which has had 2 enquiries with 2 different end results depending on what suited best at the time....
Whilst I appreciate that this will be overwhelmingly disagreed with the right decision has been made for me...
It's OK for SYP to fabricate evidence then?
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I'm not saying it is Filo,but on the same time it's not okay for people to be paid to cause trouble to make sure it's on the first item of that evenings news either...There is a distinctive blinkered view about what actually happened on here...In my eyes it just doesn't justify the cost to the publics pocket when no convictions will ever forthcoming either way...
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The big difference between this and Hillsbrough is that the government knew that with Hillsborough all the blame belongs to the SYP. With this, it would lead all the way back to the Cabinet, and we can't have that brought out into the open can we? It'd lead to all sorts of awkward questions about other times that governments have ridden roughshod over the Rule Of Law! Unthinkable..!
Any proper investigation was never going to happen because of this.
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My only observation is given it was 32 years ago does it really matter that much? THIS IS difficult one as for those involved it clearly is important, how long do you leave things, indeed is it relevant in 2016?
I'm open either way but it's a point I have heard made...
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it's a emotive subject but only to a few unlike Hillsbrough..The country has no real appetite to demand it..Even here in Yorkshire it's not been demanded that hugely...Of course you've got politicians like Andy Burnham sticking his oar in every chance he gets but that's more to do with his profile in his attempt to become Mayor of Manchester...He proved during his Labour leadership attempt and then complete u turn on what he said during it,that he has more faces than big ben.....It's one of those were whatever happens people are going to disagree...
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Maybe if it were proven that unofficial or illegal practices were put into action by the government of the time steps could be taken to make sure that it was never repeated.
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My only observation is given it was 32 years ago does it really matter that much? THIS IS difficult one as for those involved it clearly is important, how long do you leave things, indeed is it relevant in 2016?
I'm open either way but it's a point I have heard made...
That point is invalid, should we now drop historical sexual abuse?, should we stop persuing nazi war criminals?
Just because it was a long time ago does n't mean we should dismiss it, just like Norman Tebbit wants us do do. I wonder why? Is it because he was a cabinet minister at that time?
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Like Glosterred said above, you'd have thought that all the years Labour have been in power since would have led them to force the issue of an enquiry to gain some smartie points over the Tories.
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I agree with Bentley and Gloster ,also Michael Mansfield sniffing for a big pay out at our expense.
Plus the laws of evidence were different in 1984, they used The Judges Rules not Police and Criminal evidence Act.
I also read that Thatcher had no intention of the going the way of Jim Callaghan.
Who in their right mind would want Arfur Scabbigills calling the tune?
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Like Glosterred said above, you'd have thought that all the years Labour have been in power since would have led them to force the issue of an enquiry to gain some smartie points over the Tories.
Why didn't Tony Blair, the man who invited Margaret Thatcher into Dowing Street when he was elected PM, who called her a great political leader and whom Thatcher in return called the greatest legacy I created in British politics, carry out an enquiry into the unscruplulousness of her government?
Because you are confusing New Labour with a proper Labour government.
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Like Glosterred said above, you'd have thought that all the years Labour have been in power since would have led them to force the issue of an enquiry to gain some smartie points over the Tories.
Why didn't Tony Blair, the man who invited Margaret Thatcher into Dowing Street when he was elected PM, who called her a great political leader and whom Thatcher in return called the greatest legacy I created in British politics, carry out an enquiry into the unscruplulousness of her government?
Because you are confusing New Labour with a proper Labour government.
Still the Labour Party and they still have that question to answer.
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My only observation is given it was 32 years ago does it really matter that much? THIS IS difficult one as for those involved it clearly is important, how long do you leave things, indeed is it relevant in 2016?
I'm open either way but it's a point I have heard made...
That point is invalid, should we now drop historical sexual abuse?, should we stop persuing nazi war criminals?
Just because it was a long time ago does n't mean we should dismiss it, just like Norman Tebbit wants us do do. I wonder why? Is it because he was a cabinet minister at that time?
Seriously Glynn that isn't even close to been on the same page as this a ridiculous comparison..
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?
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Says it all to me about the current state of the Labour Party. They are fixated about an event that happened 32 years ago. What about the future, guys?
No wonder Labour is increasingly seen as irrelevant.
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Says it all to me about the current state of the Labour Party. They are fixated about an event that happened 32 years ago. What about the future, guys?
No wonder Labour is increasingly seen as irrelevant.
On the Labour Party's official Twitter page (not somewhere I go very often I must admit), the only post today is about the Living Wage.
Yesterday there were two further tweets about the Living Wage, one about Brexit and one about Orgreave.
What part of 'fixated' am I missing here?
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Says it all to me about the current state of the Labour Party. They are fixated about an event that happened 32 years ago. What about the future, guys?
No wonder Labour is increasingly seen as irrelevant.
Damn them poppy sellers, too. Talk about fixating on an event from years ago!
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Says it all to me about the current state of the Labour Party. They are fixated about an event that happened 32 years ago. What about the future, guys?
No wonder Labour is increasingly seen as irrelevant.
Damn them poppy sellers, too. Talk about fixating on an event from years ago!
Glynn some things cant be forgotten...respecting people who gave there lives for our country,the holocaust and child abuse are in that category....For you to try and put Orgreave in the same bracket is just too stupid a comment to argue with...
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But according to TRB, everything has a shelf life. Argue with him, not me. Or perhaps you can tell me after how long injustice and possible political manipulation of the supposedly politically-neutral state security force should be forgotten and ignored - especially after new evidence emerges?
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I'm not arguing with him I understood what he was trying to say and the context it was meant..Or you for that matter although I think your comments are beyond ridiculous, At the end of the day,you cant argue with stupid,they drag you down to there level then beat you on experience...!!!....But your entitled to your opinion...
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I wasn't saying that Orgreave should be forgotten about. I was actually thinking about how Labour's reaction to Rudd's decision would be interpreted by the vast majority of people in this country for whom it is ancient history.
To say they don't agree with the decision not to hold an inquiry is one thing. To commit a future Labour government to holding one is another. Even though the best part of a decade might have passed by the time that such an event comes to pass.
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Also those who believe that Rudd has dismissed the calls for a Public Inquiry on political grounds surely then have to accept that some of those calling for the Inquiry are acting on political grounds?
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Why would I deny it when the whole thing is stenched in politics, from the moment the police are supposed to have received instructions from above onwards?
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What is at issue here is the integrity of the judicial system, and the freedom of the system to operate without political interference, or being undermined by interested parties.
The suggestion, borne out by evidence from serving police officers at the time, is that SYP were involved in an organised conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. This includes actions at the time of the Orgreave picket, and subsequent deceptions in order to preserve the version of events which suited the police.
The fact that is was a long time ago is totally irrelevant. If new evidence has come to light, which would cause a reasonable person to review the situation, then it is essential that it be investigated by an independent body.
If you think the "bygones" argument holds water, how long does it have to be before judicial interest should lapse?
Amber "gambler" Rudd has made a serious error of judgement, and if she thinks this will put it to bed she is sadly deluded. It will build into a pot boiler for the Tories until they face up to it.
Much better to deal with it now relatively early in the life of the government than to let it fester on, turning septic.
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What is at issue here is the integrity of the judicial system, and the freedom of the system to operate without political interference, or being undermined by interested parties.
The suggestion, borne out by evidence from serving police officers at the time, is that SYP were involved in an organised conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. This includes actions at the time of the Orgreave picket, and subsequent deceptions in order to preserve the version of events which suited the police.
The fact that is was a long time ago is totally irrelevant. If new evidence has come to light, which would cause a reasonable person to review the situation, then it is essential that it be investigated by an independent body.
If you think the "bygones" argument holds water, how long does it have to be before judicial interest should lapse?
Amber "gambler" Rudd has made a serious error of judgement, and if she thinks this will put it to bed she is sadly deluded. It will build into a pot boiler for the Tories until they face up to it.
Much better to deal with it now relatively early in the life of the government than to let it fester on, turning septic.
Allbe, please point me to the evidence of Police officers serving at the time,all I so far seen is one guy who misheard what was said to him about the use of 'Sufficient force as is Neccesary' and the some guy stating that the way they were told to prepare their evidence was not in keeping with his own view of then practise. I think SYP will have been given legal advice about this if not correct advice,I am sure that dealing with instances of concerted mass disorder will always be a problem as they are very rare events.
Orgreave was a battle between two 'medieval armies' in one small (for the numbers involved ) location,most riots happen in urban areas and involved isolated skirmishes,i.e. The Poll tax riots, Bradford,Broadwater farm.
I have no doubt that the SYP were told by the then Govt to do all it could to prevent the Miners closing down the plant.
That's what Governments are supposed to do, protect the population from idiots whose agenda is to bring the country down.
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Sproty are you seriously asking for evidence of SYP corruption and cover ups of their actions in the 1980's!!! Where have you been for the past year - in a cave?
The least you could have done was look at the SYP and see what their view of Orgreave is - unlike the Home Secretary (and you) they SUPPORT the call for an inquiry and understand why this is so important.
Issued on behalf of Chief Constable Dave Jones, Interim Chief Constable for South Yorkshire Police:
“The Hillsborough Inquests have brought into sharp focus the need to understand and confront the past and give people the opportunity to explore the circumstances of such significant events.
“I would therefore welcome an appropriate independent assessment of Orgreave accepting that the way in which this is delivered is a matter for the Home Secretary.”
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/news-syp/statement-orgreave-interim-chief-constable
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Wilts South Yorkshire Police Chhief Constable is a bloke with the surname Watson, not Jones!
Dave Jones is Chief of North Yorks,not South Yorks. I think the female Chief of West Yorkshire Police would also welcome an enquiry! Maybe they see it as a way of earning some extra revenue,investigating another Force!
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That's taken from the page on the link I have posted.
I believe Jones was the Acting Chief Constable before Watson - so that dates the page to pre July.
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That's taken from the page on the link I have posted.
I believe Jones was the Acting Chief Constable before Watson - so that dates the page to pre July.
Right,to honest I think any one of them would welcome a Public enquiry, it would last years, it doesn't concern them I doubt any of them were even in the Police back then,the world has moved on since 1984,the Law has completely changed so there would be no lessons learned.I think a few people have seen pound signs including Mr Jones!
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Wilts, just checked, Jones joined Police in 1986 Stephen Watson in 1988.thats how relevant it is to them!
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Are you suggesting, Sproty, that Mr Jones is corrupt? That's a serious thing to allege. What evidence have you?
Cheers
BobG
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Police Forces make a lot of money by seconding officers to investigations,having said that there will have been a large number of NYP officers at Orgreave. And at the time he penned his article he was 'overseeing ' SYP so he isn't going to get any job in retirement such as heading an investigation
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Personally I'm 50/50 on this one. If the Government had announced a public inquiry I'd have thought it a reasonable decision. Having said that I also thought Amber Rudd's justification for not holding one was reasonable.
I doubt much useful would be learned from such an inquiry. Most of the protagonists have made their minds up, and unless it concluded that there was some "smoking gun" that proved collusion by the Thatcher Government they would dismiss it as a cover up.
Comparisons with "Hillsborough" are simply wrong. The key inquiry was actually an Inquest into the deaths of 96 people. It was rightly concluded by the Hillsborough Panel (and supported by the Conservative Government) that the original Inquest was not fit for purpose. A fresh Inquest was held and produced a verdict that satisfied many people. Including the families of the victims.
Wearing my cynical head, it would have been easy for Amber Rudd to earn a positive reaction. She could have ordered an Inquiry but appointed an uninquisitve, pro-Establishment judge to lead it (what's Lord Hutton up to these days?). The police would have got some criticism, as would the NUM leadership and the pickets. But crucially some other Home Secretary would have had to deal with the outcome. Still, it would have allowed Michael Mansfield et al to live in the style to which they are accustomed.
If you think I'm some sort of apologist for Amber Rudd, I do have a bone to pick with her. Her refusal to fund legal representation to the families of the victims of the Birmingham Pub Bombings really IS a scandal. People actually died there, and someone probably knows things that will not be revealed without proper cross examination.
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If this article is true, then Amber Rudd needs to consider her position;
Amber Rudd did not review police files before Orgreave inquiry refusal | Politics | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/amber-rudd-did-not-review-police-files-before-orgreave-inquiry-refusal)
It seems to me that both Rudd (and May before her), have failed to properly consider the weight of available evidence, and as such have not satisfied the first requirement of holding public office.
There is little point in having responsibilities within a cabinet structure if the individuals concerned are unwilling/incapable/too lazy to follow due process.
Rudd has brought the system into disrepute, and left SYP and those wrongfully accused without closure.
She should go.
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Latest installment from this popular sitcom;
Orgreave files reveal anxiety that evidence flaws could warrant inquiry | Politics | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/21/orgreave-files-reveal-anxiety-trial-collapse-could-warrant-inquiry-miners-strike)
I wonder what's in that file returned to the Home Office (see last paragraph).
More skeletons in the closet still to emerge.
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Something not quite as damaging as will be in the 30 'secret' files kept back from the public by the Home Office I should imagine.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/20/home-office-holds-30-secret-miners-strike-files