Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on June 25, 2015, 06:47:02 pm
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You remember all that piss and wind about the Northern Powerhouse before the Election? How the Tories were determined to invest in infrastructure for the North?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586
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quite easy scrap HS2 and save the money required , use some of the HS2 money to upgrade the line from London to Doncaster and onwards to Leeds.
Put the links across to the West of the country from Leeds
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Defo scrap HS2.
It is a massive waste of money and not at all needed.
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Just need to beef up that infrastructure to make sure Hebden Bridge is the UK's second city.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26472423
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You remember all that piss and wind about the Northern Powerhouse before the Election? How the Tories were determined to invest in infrastructure for the North?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586
At least we got a Train named Northern Powerhouse out of the melee / debris errr and that's that !
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I knew they'd go back on their word. Northern power house was a sweetener to shut us up as compensation for not having a single representative of Yorkshire in the cabinet.
That , after finding money to shut the last of our pits and shut down one of the largest power plants in the country. Oh , coincidently both within the constituency of a prospective Leader of the Opposition!
Tory b*****ds hate us northern scum.
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That's ok Nice One. I, for one, hate them southern Tories bas**rds.
BobG
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That's the thing I hate most about this country, the "us and them" mentally. It works in both directions as well. I'm not just on about in a political sense either.
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You remember all that piss and wind about the Northern Powerhouse before the Election? How the Tories were determined to invest in infrastructure for the North?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586
As usual a totally unbalanced picture is painted by silly Billy. Have any of you actually read the article he posted? No I didn't think so.
Anyone reading the drivel posted on this issue by you lefties would be forgiven for thinking the investment in infrastructure is not going to happen and that the Tories have totally gone back on their word. Complete cobblers.
Its a good job the voice of reason is here to tell the true story. You do know that the Northern Powerhouse is not just about rail infrastructure don't you? I suspect not. You just believe any old cobblers silly Billy comes up with.
The Tories promised to spend £38bn on rail infrastructure during this parliament. This is still the plan. No piss and wind here.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
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You remember all that piss and wind about the Northern Powerhouse before the Election? How the Tories were determined to invest in infrastructure for the North?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586
As usual a totally unbalanced picture is painted by silly Billy. Have any of you actually read the article he posted? No I didn't think so.
Anyone reading the drivel posted on this issue by you lefties would be forgiven for thinking the investment in infrastructure is not going to happen and that the Tories have totally gone back on their word. Complete cobblers.
Its a good job the voice of reason is here to tell the true story. You do know that the Northern Powerhouse is not just about rail infrastructure don't you? I suspect not. You just believe any old cobblers silly Billy comes up with.
The Tories promised to spend £38bn on rail infrastructure during this parliament. This is still the plan. No piss and wind here.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
How's he "painted an unbalanced picture"? he's just referenced an article someone wrote. Get a job.
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Gaz
I didn't intend this to be about "us and them".
I was pointing out the mendacity of a bunch of politicians who said "Northern Powerhouse" more frequently than they drew breath 3 months ago, and whose first major post Election decision is to cancel or "pause" a set of major and desperately needed rail improvements in the North, whilst giving the green light to yet another investment in the South.
No more. No less.
Now that it's done its job, I expect this phrase will go the same way as "Big Society" and "March of the Makers", and we'll continue with an arrangement where London and the South East gets £2500 per person per year invested in transport improvements whilst the North East gets £5.
Don't talk to me about "us and them"...
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You remember all that piss and wind about the Northern Powerhouse before the Election? How the Tories were determined to invest in infrastructure for the North?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586
As usual a totally unbalanced picture is painted by silly Billy. Have any of you actually read the article he posted? No I didn't think so.
Anyone reading the drivel posted on this issue by you lefties would be forgiven for thinking the investment in infrastructure is not going to happen and that the Tories have totally gone back on their word. Complete cobblers.
Its a good job the voice of reason is here to tell the true story. You do know that the Northern Powerhouse is not just about rail infrastructure don't you? I suspect not. You just believe any old cobblers silly Billy comes up with.
The Tories promised to spend £38bn on rail infrastructure during this parliament. This is still the plan. No piss and wind here.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
How's he "painted an unbalanced picture"? he's just referenced an article someone wrote. Get a job.
I can't get my breath. How's he painted an unbalanced picture? Can't you read man? Don't you know what the Northern Powerhouse is all about? Obviously not.
Reading silly Billy's posts he gives the distinct impression that the Tories have abandoned the Northern Powerhouse project. They most definitely have not. His statements are totally ludicrous and downright misleading.
The Tories promised to spend £38bn during this parliament on rail infrastructure. The article silly Billy uses says this is still the case.
So some projects will be delayed. Its not the end of the world. Unfortunately Network Rail aren't up to the job. If anyone is to blame about the delays it is them not the Tories. Just because Network Rail need a bit longer to get it sorted does not mean the Northern Powerhouse scheme has been abandoned.
The levels of intelligence on this forum beggar belief. Cop yourselves on and realise that silly Billy is from the hard left and will do anything to discredit the Tories whether what he says is true or not. Think for yourselves for a change instead of blindly following the idiotic lead he gives.
Its a good job the voice of reason is here to sort him out.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
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So we get lied to again about investment pre voting despite them knowing different, and the scots were told they would be a mere 7.3billion better off pre voting than they will be http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33268851( and Im sure some on here pointed that particular gamble out a while ago).
And they wonder why people dont trust politicans
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You remember all that piss and wind about the Northern Powerhouse before the Election? How the Tories were determined to invest in infrastructure for the North?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586
As usual a totally unbalanced picture is painted by silly Billy. Have any of you actually read the article he posted? No I didn't think so.
Anyone reading the drivel posted on this issue by you lefties would be forgiven for thinking the investment in infrastructure is not going to happen and that the Tories have totally gone back on their word. Complete cobblers.
Its a good job the voice of reason is here to tell the true story. You do know that the Northern Powerhouse is not just about rail infrastructure don't you? I suspect not. You just believe any old cobblers silly Billy comes up with.
The Tories promised to spend £38bn on rail infrastructure during this parliament. This is still the plan. No piss and wind here.
Time to move on. Nothing more to see here.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
How's he "painted an unbalanced picture"? he's just referenced an article someone wrote. Get a job.
I can't get my breath. How's he painted an unbalanced picture? Can't you read man? Don't you know what the Northern Powerhouse is all about? Obviously not.
Reading silly Billy's posts he gives the distinct impression that the Tories have abandoned the Northern Powerhouse project. They most definitely have not. His statements are totally ludicrous and downright misleading.
The Tories promised to spend £38bn during this parliament on rail infrastructure. The article silly Billy uses says this is still the case.
So some projects will be delayed. Its not the end of the world. Unfortunately Network Rail aren't up to the job. If anyone is to blame about the delays it is them not the Tories. Just because Network Rail need a bit longer to get it sorted does not mean the Northern Powerhouse scheme has been abandoned.
The levels of intelligence on this forum beggar belief. Cop yourselves on and realise that silly Billy is from the hard left and will do anything to discredit the Tories whether what he says is true or not. Think for yourselves for a change instead of blindly following the idiotic lead he gives.
Its a good job the voice of reason is here to sort him out.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
And if BST is hard left, where's the problem with that?
We need balance to counter the far right that you're pretending to be.
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Nice one.
He already provides the balance for the site. Everyone else engages in discussion laced with with facts and logic. He balances this by making his mind up beforehand, ignoring facts and compensating by pouring forth a constant stream of verbal diarrohea on the monkeys and typewriters theory that sooner or later he'll get something right.
On this current topic, the Tories made a big splash about how they were going to invest in Northern transport infrastructure. Taking the East Mids mainline electrification as an example, this was a no-brainer. In the big scheme of things, it was very inexpensive (£500m over 5 years - equivalent to about 0.004% of GDP) but it would produce huge long-term benefits. Better trains. More efficient trains, meaning less energy use and pollution. Lighter trains meaning less maintenance work required for the track. Better connections for cities that have traditionally had poor rail services to London (Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham) and have suffered economically as a result. And the biggest issue of all - the UK Govt can currently borrow at absolutely rock-bottom interest rates. So we could get all those benefits by effectively paying next to nothing in interest. And the construction workers put to work on this job instead of collecting dole money would help to boost local economies. Every serious economist in the world knows that this sort of investment is a no-brainer. For every pound Govt invests in projects of this sort, the economy immediately benefits through the multiplier effect. I earn, therefore I spend, therefore you earn, therefore you spend, therefore someone else earns and the entire economy is boosted as a result. (Admittedly, there are some d**kheads who still refuse to believe this, but then there are some who still refuse to believe in evolution - you always get some idiots who ignore evidence and insist that their prejudices are right.)
So. Extremely cheap to do. Massive benefits environmentally, economically and societally. Which is exactly how it was trumpeted when it was first announced. And now, of course, it's going to be "paused". Which, given that there is no indication of when it will be "unpaused" effectively means cancelled for the foreseeable future. But the Govt will still say that it is investing in the transport network by putting in the £38bn they promised. It's just that this will be going somewhere else. Somewhere where people who predominantly vote Tory will benefit. Whilst the Labour voting cities of Sheffield, Nottingham and Derby wait the best part of another decade for a desperately needed upgrade.
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Here's silly Billy's first sentence on this thread Northern Powerhouse -
'You remember all that piss and wind about the Northern Powerhouse before the Election?' He is clearly talking about the Northern Powerhouse, not just the rail infrastructure part.
It is clear to anyone that he thinks the whole of the Northern Powerhouse is all piss and wind. He then tries to use one part of it to pretend that the whole project is piss and wind.
Totally misleading.
Here's what Kamal Ahmed, business editor of the BBC says in the same article -
'To be clear, much of the investment will still happen. It will just be slower and more expensive.
And significant Whitehall sources have also told me that spending £38bn over five years is still the plan.
Which means that, according to those officials, the Conservative Party is not about to break its manifesto pledge to spend that amount.'
There you have it. Silly Billy is the piss and wind merchant.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
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Patience it looks like it will happen but more slowly. I've no problems with that, the key is they get it right, but they have to do it. More important than rail upgrades are road upgrades, namely the A1 to Ferrybridge and Woodhead pass. The actual rail line that needs most improving is Sheffield to Manchester - it's horrid and slow at least Leeds to Manchester isn't that bad - though in terms of time there's little benefit over driving...
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Patience?
By 2020 (probably also by 2025 given this unspecified "pause") ,Sheffield will be the only 600,000+ population city in Western Europe not to have an electrified rail system. How much patience do you suggest?
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Patience?
By 2020 (probably also by 2025 given this unspecified "pause") ,Sheffield will be the only 600,000+ population city in Western Europe not to have an electrified rail system. How much patience do you suggest?
Stop changing the subject. The Northern Powerhouse is powering ahead. Stop trying to mislead people.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
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My mrs says I'm a northern powerhouse in the bedroom.
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She's probably only been tampered with by southern shandy drinking mockney bas**rds though.
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The electrification and increased rolling stock on the Manchester to Leeds line is critical and fundamental to this Northern Powerhouse b*llocks, so to say everything is hunky dory suggests to me you are thicker than I ever thought you were. The overcrowding on this line has cost out region £120 million in lost trade and 20,000 jobs (KPMG figures). So, who is deliberately misleading who?
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The electrification and increased rolling stock on the Manchester to Leeds line is critical and fundamental to this Northern Powerhouse b*llocks, so to say everything is hunky dory suggests to me you are thicker than I ever thought you were. The overcrowding on this line has cost out region £120 million in lost trade and 20,000 jobs (KPMG figures). So, who is deliberately misleading who?
They are spending £38bn just like they promised. It's Network Rail that is at fault because they are so piss poor at their job. If they were a private company with no union interference there would be a lot of change from £38bn and the works would be done on time.
But don't let that stop you from bashing the Tories. Question. What did Labour ever do in all their years in power to create a Northern Powerhouse? Let's not forget they were in power when there was plenty of money around.
Go figure.
IC1967 (no secrets here)
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Patience?
By 2020 (probably also by 2025 given this unspecified "pause") ,Sheffield will be the only 600,000+ population city in Western Europe not to have an electrified rail system. How much patience do you suggest?
[/quote
Patience it looks like it will happen but more slowly. I've no problems with that, the key is they get it right, but they have to do it. More important than rail upgrades are road upgrades, namely the A1 to Ferrybridge and Woodhead pass. The actual rail line that needs most improving is Sheffield to Manchester - it's horrid and slow at least Leeds to Manchester isn't that bad - though in terms of time there's little benefit over driving...
The actual line that needs improving most would be the Midland Main line from St Pancras to Sheffield closely followed by the Liverpool to Hull upgrade which would have improved East to West journey times and probably allowed more freight traffic to use the increase in capacity to take lorries off the M62.
Road upgrades? don't make me laugh!!! Having been based at Salford Quays for over 18 months and having travelled back from working in Liverpool all last week which took 2 hours 10 minutes to travel exactly 96 miles via the East lancs Road and the M62 on an "upgraded system" you have to be joking!!!
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Everybody who voted for them, enjoy the destruction they are going to meet out on ordinary working people and the disabled, the scare tactics worked to get them back in, and from what i read, they will use the same tactics on the EU in or out referendum.
People voted for them because they were scared of us becoming another Greece, the Greece they peddle in the papers, someone who lives over there said it's nothing like they are making out.
Since the beginning of time the North/South Divide has existed, the only time you will see them is when they want your vote, why do people get so easily swayed?.
They were always going to go back on doing anything for the north, Thatcher started the job, Cameron is finishing it, i'm not saying Labour had all the answers they didn't, none of the parties work.
The best from each party should be brought from each group, and serve the people like they are supposed to, not serve themselves.
The people have let themselves be trodden over for too long, they reluctantly except a pay rise, while people struggle to eat.
And the answer is stop tax credit's to help people who are struggling live a basic life, turn everybody against the unemployed as scroungers, shirkers and low life.
Making sure that plenty of programmes are on to show that the unemployed are laughing at people paying they're benefits through working.
Benefits street shows the most extreme cases, they are brainwashing the country, it doesn't show the disabled old lady who is cold through winter.
It doesn't show the disabled man who should be doing normal things in his life, but depression has destroyed, it doesn't show the working family who work hard all week and have no food in the cupboard.
One day the majority will start thinking for themselves instead of one party brainwashing them, while Cameron and the like eat the best of food, the finest of wine's, think about the physically and mentally struggling that your tax helps to survive.
And then think about how you are eating and how the people who are supposed to work for you are eating better than you, and unlike you have no worries they are set up for life, and so will the next generation of they're family.
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Some people are always going to have more money than others Sammy. We are lucky to live in a country that if you really want to get on and have the ability to, you can. This is not true in a lot of country's.
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'm not convinced your argument is completely accurate Gaz.
In theory, and soemtimes in practice, yes. People can do as you describe. But does everyone have the same chance of success? Hardly. A three tier education system that indubitably favours the wealthy hardly suggests it's a level playing field. The old boy network, which is more pronounced in this country than anywhere I understand, tilts the table further towards the haves rather than the have nots. The cost of professional advice, accounting, marketing, sales, legal, company absolutely definitely makes that tilt even more pronounced. Without a whole shedload of cash, it's nigh on impossible to access even the most basic services you need.
So, to me, those that do achieve the dream you describe, have done it despite the system. Not because of it.
I'm also not convinced by the suggestion that 'in a lot of countries' you can't do what you describe. I'm sure there are countries like that - but even in the USA, always held up as the paragon of self made men, what proportion of them are negro? In America, it's a fantastic system if you are a WASP. If you're not, then generally it's God help you.
Tbh I'm struggling to think of a major economy where there isn't an ability of at least UK proportions to make good. China is full of self made billionaires these days. Thailand and Vietnam have at least millionaires. Cuba, not a major economy of course, is one where the chance doesn't exist - but it'll be a fun place to observe in 3 years time. Brazil? Just like here: a brilliant place if you're of the right background.
Can you give me some examples of countries that don't have at least some ability for people to make good? I'm struggling yet you said there are lots of them.
Cheers
BobG
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Network Rail (formerly Railtrack), a shining beacon of an example of how privatisation of public services under a tory government is the way forward...
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And don't forget, BJW, that Network Rail is the REPLACEMENT body after Railtrack cocked up big time!
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action. Churchill said that. Looks like the privatisation mob are starting to sail a bit too close to the wind for comfort.
BobG
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The sooner British Rail is returned the better for the industry,the customer and the tax payers!
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Savvy
Some chance. East Coast Mainline was working perfectly well in public ownership, but that's not supposed to happen, so it had to be privatised. Grand eh?
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Bill, East Coast were a "TOC" who, if my memory serves me right relinquished their operating agreement on account of their in ability to balance the books! The engineering sector needs a total rethink as the amount of money wasted under,the current regime is a national disgrace! Work is being completed but if the costs for the projects were published there would be uproar! Next time you go past a travel lodge or Premier Inn on a weekend check how many railway related vehicles are in the car park! Soeone is picking up the tab and guess who it us
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So it was just a pause then....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34402592
Less of the doom and gloom I think chaps!
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BFYP
Fair point.
Shame they couldn't have announced the 3-4 year delay 6 weeks BEFORE the election instead if 6 weeks after...
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Would any political party done so?
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Corbyn claims he's going to not play those games. We'll see.
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I saw some space filler little article somewhere today that claimed there's been a survey asking people what current 'things' they expect won't be around in 10 years time. Obvious things like cheque books of course, but the Labour Party figured quite highly too. Hmmm. No matter how much sense this guy talks, and he does talk some, he has a fair chance of ending up as the ghost at the funeral.
BobG
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Bob
It's because he then has a car crash like today. At odds on defence policy with his Shadow Defence Secretary.
This isn't New Politics. It's slow motion suicide. He will make 20% of people adore Labour and make the other 80% abhor them. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that Labour will vanish as a serious political party.
The irony is that Labour is finally talking economic sense. But that means nothing when Corbyn goes into student politician mode like he did today.
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So it was just a pause then....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34402592
Less of the doom and gloom I think chaps!
Yes its fantastic...NOT
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/major-rail-electrification-projects-delayed-6546596#ICID=sharebar_twitter (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/major-rail-electrification-projects-delayed-6546596#ICID=sharebar_twitter)
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Billy, I find it quite intriguing your stance on Corbyn. And I am really disappointed you don't seem prepared to give him a chance. Out of interest which New Labour cardboard cut out did you vote for?
That insufferable t**t Toby Foster did a phone in on Radio Sheffield yesterday morning asking if Corbyn could ever be PM. Admittedly, I didn't catch the full phone in, but the few callers I did catch all came out with the same shite...Corbyn cannot win enough Tory seats to win an election. The rationale behind their argument was fairly sound IF Labour are simply chasing Tory voters in 2020. But the reality is if Corbyn can connect with the 34% of the registered electorate (not even counting the hundreds of thousands if not millions how are unregistered...including the 2 million to be cynically wiped off the electoral register by the Tories in the coming months) who did not vote, it is not difficult to imagine a big Labour surge. I knocked hundreds of doors in the six months prior to the election and these 34% simply were not targeted. I'd go as far to say Labour's doorstep strategy was a f**king joke. Basically preaching to the converted and not engaging if they had turned to another party. And I reckon a large percentage of them don't vote because the simple reality is there WAS no difference between Tory cuts and Labour cuts and there was no real difference in what was being served up in the manifestos, after all shite is shite, whether its watered down shite or 100% pure shite.
Now, there is a debate to be had to hopefully engage this lost 34%, the people forgotten, disengaged and disenfranchised. They now have an opportunity to debate and decide what kind of a society they actually want, instead of having the kind of society the New Labour hierarchy want imposed on them.
I think this change is massive and a game changer. Or it can be if people put their differences to one side, take off the gloves and fight. Either that or walk away and join the Lib Dems. I know which camp I'm in.
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Jon
I'm a cynical old t**t. I know what happens when optimism runs ahead of sense. And that is what is happening now.
Corbyn's entire career has been based on him being the principled rebel. Not toeing the party line. Putting his conscience and beliefs above the collective consensus. Now he has to accept that every single MP in his party will justifiably take the same line. And the result will be a farce. You notice how there have been no senior Tories rushing to the screens to have a go at Labour over the Trident debacle? Do you stop and think why? It's because Labour are doing the job of making themselves look stupid and the Tories don't need to ram home the point. They will be podding themselves laughing at this and rubbing their hands at the thought of a few more years of it.
You will NOT get into power by running the Labour Party as some sort of student collective where everyone can publicly say whatever they want on any subject. You CANNOT get into power if shadow cabinet ministers are going to openly contradict each other in public. You can try and spin that as democracy in action and new politics. You can try to spin it as everyone being allowed to air their views and therefore a great thing. But it is not. It is car-crash politics where you make yourselves look shambolic and disorganised.
You can take over a student union that way. You might even take over the odd Council. But you will NOT be elected to run the 7th most powerful country in the world.
I don't have a problem with many of Corbyn's policies. Especially on the economics. What I have a problem with is Corbyn the man. He is absolutely, categorically NOT what you want as a political leader. He will and does appeal to like minded people, those who have an optimistic belief on how the world ought to work. That is why he is do popular among the Labour membership. But the Labour membership is less than 1% of the electorate. And he will NOT get his message across to enough of the other 99%, because he will not be given a chance to. The story will not be about Corbyn's policies. It will be about how many of the Shadow Cabinet openly disagree with him about his policies and how the Labour Party looks an unelectable wreck as a result.
I'll give him 2 years, tops, IF the Tories really want to go for his throat. He'll get savaged in the May polls in 16 and 17 and he'll be gone by Conference 2017. Unless the Tories and the press play cat and mouse with him, go easy on him and save their powder for 2020.
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I wandered by a screen in the work canteen today. The usual tickertape type scrolling Sky news at the bottom with a headline in bold type just above. "Labour split on defence" the headline said.
Now, think about exactly what that means: it means the press are already sticking the boot in - undermining his credibility, his appeal, his perceived competance. It means the spin of democracy in action simply ain't gonna work.
Although I do like some of his policies, and even his behaviours, this man will kill the Labour Party for generations - unless they come to their senses and knife him quick. He is entirely, completely, utterly unelectable. And I'll bet a fair wedge that them that say he has a chance are either Tory, or, were born after 1970. No one who saw what happened to Neil Kinnock, and even more, Michael Foot will be in any doubt at all about what will happen if Corbyn sticks around. I forgot who said it, but history really is repeating itself. And the silly fools haven't read their history books.
BobG
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The press are following who is currently in power, you are getting minor celebrities piping up supporting the tories, because they are afraid that if labour do get in, they will have to pay a fairer amount on the house they live in, what they earn, all the little perks will dry up.
You could see them during the election, they were posting in the papers everything, they were frantic because they thought at the time Miliband was going to be prime minister.
Now all they are, are smug, because the gravy train is still pouring, all their little perks are safe, it's alright the poor and disabled can pay more, we don't care, we are going to the yacht at the weekend, the country is corrupt and getting worse.
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I'm still waiting with intrigue to find out which New Labour cardboard cut out Billy (and Bob) voted for, and which one would get elected, selling watered down Tory shit? You'll be telling me next Labour elected the wrong brother in 2010.
History is repeating is self is it Bob? Thing is, there is a generation who have been left on a Thatcherite scrap heap, continued by New Labour for decades. That is the difference between the Kinnock and Foot years to here and now. These people have no effective voice or political representation whatsoever. None of the other three would have changed that fact.
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Jon
I was appalled at the quality of the candidates for Labour leader. All of them. They are all political
Pygmies compared to the people who were at the top of the Labour Party 30 years ago. But just because there were three on the Right if the party that you didn't approve of, that does not deal with the manifest failings of Corbyn as a serious political leader.
As I say, I don't disagree with many of Corbyn's policies, economics especially. But in politics, it's no good being totally correct if you are also totally unelectable. That's self-indulgence. I prefer to compromise and be electable. That is why, for all their mistakes and policies that I did not agree with, I preferred New Labour in power to any Labour out of power.
You want to paint it as a black and white choice. True Labour Values or Judas-like Betrayers. You want to paint a picture that the Right of the Labour Party are closet Tories. That is silly. As I've said before, if you can't see the difference between the party that brought in tax credits for the poorest workers and the party that is chopping them back, between the party that paid for a massive school-building project and the party that cancelled it, between the party that took away the worst of the last recession through counter-cyclical Govt spending and the one that called that being a Deficit Denier, then we can't have anything like a sensible discussion.
Because politics is not about black and white. It's about getting the best you can in reality.
You think Corbyn will deliver that? I truly hope you're right and I will campaign for Labour and put everything I have into getting Labour to win in 2020.
But he won't win. He'll make you feel good about yourself, and despise traitors like me (who voted for Cooper with gritted teeth as the best of a shite lot by the way). But he will do nothing for the people who he purports to be in the business of looking after. Because his whole approach to politics (NOT his policies, his style and his history) make him utterly unelectable.
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Thank you Billy. Saved me.
I tend to deal in realities. Corbyn's unelectability is a reality. This current government is a reality. I would prefer even a far right Labour party in government than this current bunch. Such a government might not be my own personal politics, but that's irelevant. At least it would a party that remembers people outside the top 5% are actually human beings. I'll compromise a very great deal to get that while you, Jon, sit back to watch yet another decade of Tory misrule crawl by.
BobG