Post by: Filo on July 13, 2015, 07:19:20 pm
http://news.sky.com/story/1518285/britain-may-face-1bn-bill-for-greek-rescue
I hope our Government put a stop to this, the Greek crisis is mainly a German and French problem
Post by: Donnywolf on July 13, 2015, 07:46:56 pm
Post by: wilts rover on July 13, 2015, 08:20:14 pm
Best not tell him that Greece already owes us £10.8 billion already or we might get the armoa of boiled piss going again too...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33407742
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on July 13, 2015, 08:24:23 pm
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 14, 2015, 07:09:06 pm
Id be happy to say goodbye to the 10.8b tax we contributed if it the alternative contributes to subjecting generations of Greeks to poverty.
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 14, 2015, 07:43:59 pm
Post of the year.
I used to read about the utter f**k ups that were made at Versailles, and about the Gold Standard in response to the Wall St Crash, and think, "Hiw could politicians and electorates have been so utterly stupid, vindictive and blind to the consequences of what they were doing? Why could they not see that deliberately crashing other countries' economies, and insisting against all evidence that utterly mad economic policies was undermining international and domestic stability?
It was so bleeding obvious. Surely we'd never do it again?
And here we are. Doing it all over again.
What Germany and the German-inspired ECB has done to Greece this last couple of weeks is utterly abhorrent. They were the ones who said to Greece in 2010 that if they followed the Austerity path, they'd have 12 months of hardship, then bounce back. Greece did exactly as it was told. It stayed in the Euro and didn't default. If it HAD done, Europe would have gone through another Great Depression. Greece took bailouts to pay off German and French banks who had loaned them mad, mad sums of money. So the banks' debt was transferred into debt owed to EZ taxpayers instead.
That saved the banks and the banking system. But by following Austerity to the letter, Greece's economy collapsed by 25%. And NOW Germany says that because Syriza tried saying "no more!" Greece cannot be trusted!
And what does Germany now insist on? Even harsher Austerity piled on top of an economy that has already been crippled by Austerity. And to put the bullets in the gun aimed at Greece's head, the ECB deliberately and knowingly crashed the Greek banking system. The main purpose of a Central Bank is to provide liquidity in a banking crisis. The ECB deliberately pulled that liquidity precisely to bully Greece into accepting the German terms. Terms that are on a par with those that are normally dictated by victors in a war.
It is an absolute f**king disgrace and we should be up in arms about it. If we end up paying £1bn to support Greece, it is the least we should do, not least because the previous mendacious Greek Govts only got away with their insane borrowing that precipitated this crisis because a London based merchant bank helped them to fiddle the books.
Post by: BobG on July 14, 2015, 09:22:32 pm
Merkel has become a danger to us all. One of the scarcely considered possible consequences of what she has insisted upon is the complete poisoning of relations between Greece and the EU. That may not matter too much right now. But it will. It will. And when it does, just who does she think is waiting in the wings, ready to offer a hand of 'friendship' to Greece? We've already seen the overtures. Stout effort by the Greeks to resist. But for how much longer? Economically, politically, the risk has just grown exponentially. Merkel is now risking more than economies.
BobG
Post by: Filo on July 14, 2015, 09:33:45 pm
Post by: Savvy on July 14, 2015, 09:47:12 pm
BRMC
Post of the year.
I used to read about the utter f*** ups that were made at Versailles, and about the Gold Standard in response to the Wall St Crash, and think, "Hiw could politicians and electorates have been so utterly stupid, vindictive and blind to the consequences of what they were doing? Why could they not see that deliberately crashing other countries' economies, and insisting against all evidence that utterly mad economic policies was undermining international and domestic stability?
It was so bleeding obvious. Surely we'd never do it again?
And here we are. Doing it all over again.
What Germany and the German-inspired ECB has done to Greece this last couple of weeks is utterly abhorrent. They were the ones who said to Greece in 2010 that if they followed the Austerity path, they'd have 12 months of hardship, then bounce back. Greece did exactly as it was told. It stayed in the Euro and didn't default. If it HAD done, Europe would have gone through another Great Depression. Greece took bailouts to pay off German and French banks who had loaned them mad, mad sums of money. So the banks' debt was transferred into debt owed to EZ taxpayers instead.
That saved the banks and the banking system. But by following Austerity to the letter, Greece's economy collapsed by 25%. And NOW Germany says that because Syriza tried saying "no more!" Greece cannot be trusted!
And what does Germany now insist on? Even harsher Austerity piled on top of an economy that has already been crippled by Austerity. And to put the bullets in the gun aimed at Greece's head, the ECB deliberately and knowingly crashed the Greek banking system. The main purpose of a Central Bank is to provide liquidity in a banking crisis. The ECB deliberately pulled that liquidity precisely to bully Greece into accepting the German terms. Terms that are on a par with those that are normally dictated by victors in a war.
It is an absolute f***ing disgrace and we should be up in arms about it. If we end up paying £1bn to support Greece, it is the least we should do, not least because the previous mendacious Greek Govts only got away with their insane borrowing that precipitated this crisis because a London based merchant bank helped them to fiddle the books.
"Greece did exactly what it was told to" forgive me if I'm wrong, but hasn't one of the major stumbling blocks to an agreement been the fact that the Greeks DON'T do what they say they are going to? Thought credibility was a major issue here?
Post by: BobG on July 14, 2015, 10:37:00 pm
Poor old Germany. It'll just never live down its history will it? What I've just written is a conspiracy theory gone mad - yet there's always just that little tremor of fear isn't there?
BobG
PS. Later thought: I wonder how this pushing around is faring in the halls of the Kremlin - where it might have done some good. It's obvious to a blind man though, we, the west, Germany included, have gone a very long way towards abandoning the Ukraine. I call that pretty damn shameful too. Especially of this wonderful England. We were one of the 3 powers who guaranteed their borders when the Ukraine agreed to give up its nuclear weapons. Poor sods. Fancy relying on Perfidious Albion....
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 14, 2015, 11:46:04 pm
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 14, 2015, 11:47:22 pm
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 14, 2015, 11:53:56 pm
BRMC
Post of the year.
I used to read about the utter f*** ups that were made at Versailles, and about the Gold Standard in response to the Wall St Crash, and think, "Hiw could politicians and electorates have been so utterly stupid, vindictive and blind to the consequences of what they were doing? Why could they not see that deliberately crashing other countries' economies, and insisting against all evidence that utterly mad economic policies was undermining international and domestic stability?
It was so bleeding obvious. Surely we'd never do it again?
And here we are. Doing it all over again.
What Germany and the German-inspired ECB has done to Greece this last couple of weeks is utterly abhorrent. They were the ones who said to Greece in 2010 that if they followed the Austerity path, they'd have 12 months of hardship, then bounce back. Greece did exactly as it was told. It stayed in the Euro and didn't default. If it HAD done, Europe would have gone through another Great Depression. Greece took bailouts to pay off German and French banks who had loaned them mad, mad sums of money. So the banks' debt was transferred into debt owed to EZ taxpayers instead.
That saved the banks and the banking system. But by following Austerity to the letter, Greece's economy collapsed by 25%. And NOW Germany says that because Syriza tried saying "no more!" Greece cannot be trusted!
And what does Germany now insist on? Even harsher Austerity piled on top of an economy that has already been crippled by Austerity. And to put the bullets in the gun aimed at Greece's head, the ECB deliberately and knowingly crashed the Greek banking system. The main purpose of a Central Bank is to provide liquidity in a banking crisis. The ECB deliberately pulled that liquidity precisely to bully Greece into accepting the German terms. Terms that are on a par with those that are normally dictated by victors in a war.
It is an absolute f***ing disgrace and we should be up in arms about it. If we end up paying £1bn to support Greece, it is the least we should do, not least because the previous mendacious Greek Govts only got away with their insane borrowing that precipitated this crisis because a London based merchant bank helped them to fiddle the books.
"Greece did exactly what it was told to" forgive me if I'm wrong, but hasn't one of the major stumbling blocks to an agreement been the fact that the Greeks DON'T do what they say they are going to? Thought credibility was a major issue here?
The big issue was the failings of austerity. The bail out, went to the banks that support their economy, not into investment or budgeting of public services. While cuts further depleted the foundations of recovery. The Greeks did do as they were told. The austerity forecast for recovery, just like Osbourne's in the UK, was just way off. They realised that they could continue with austerity for 1million years, but year of year they will go backwards.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 15, 2015, 12:02:44 am
Filo - that's not quite as idiotic as it would once have sounded. I mentioned somewhere on here, not very long ago, that, just maybe, Germany is starting to revert to type. Hegemony doesn't have to be always achieved through warfare. In the 20 years since reunification, Germany has comsolidated its position as the major power in central Europe. It has rebuilt the ex DDR. Now, under Merkel, it looks supiciously like Germany has started asserting itself against a weaker state not too far from its borders. Surely we couldn't call it bullying could we?
Poor old Germany. It'll just never live down its history will it? What I've just written is a conspiracy theory gone mad - yet there's always just that little tremor of fear isn't there?
BobG
Exactly Bob. Too post.
In humans their are flaws. Some of those humans with flaws happen to have responsibility over many peoples welfare.
Post by: The Red Baron on July 15, 2015, 10:06:26 am
I think Tsipras has made some bad moves, but equally he has been hung out to dry by Merkel and co. Maybe they would be glad to be rid of a self-confessed leftist, but they may end up with worse.
When I looked at the details of the deal I thought "I'll give it six months" before the next crisis. I think I was overly optimistic.
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 15, 2015, 10:40:21 am
Greece has made quite astonishing budget cutbacks. Just as they were told to do by the Troika in 2010. They were assured that the effect of this would be a hard but short recession followed by growth. Because the people who were "assuring" them of this got the economics horrifically wrong, they have actually had what looks like at interminable Great Recession.
The "trust" issue is now being flagged up because Syriza came onto the scene saying "we are not prepared to continue with this economic madness". And the response of the ECB, egged on by Germany, has been to go nuclear by effectively crashing the Greek banking system and forcing Syriza to surrender.
The scale of the catastrophe that has been visited on Greece, and of the sheer incompetence of the Troika's original plans is barely credible, as these graphs show. Look how their projections were hopelessly optimistic about the effect that Austerity would have on the Greek economy.
(http://blogs.independent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Greece-IMF.png)
And a more recent one.
(http://multiplier-effect.org/files/2013/08/Fig4-Real-GDP_Greek-SA-2013.png)
So at every step of the way, the Troika has said "More Austerity and you'll be OK". And look what has happened.
And this isn't some academic exercise. This is the futures of an entire population being consumed by flames.
For the Troika now to talk about "trust" is a sick joke. Greece's previous, pre-2010 Govts were feckless and reckless. But my God have the Greek people been made to pay for it.
And NOW Merkel has been saying that the solution is more of the same. Because she doesn't care about the economics. She's playing to her domestic electorate who have been misled about the scale of the crime that they have committed against Greece. She can't say "we were wrong". The IMF has done though, and now we really are at the crunch point.
Someone got it bang on this week. They said that the tragedy imposed on Greece, relative to their original crime is the equivalent of the Victorians hanging kids for stealing. And it's done for exactly the same reasons. To satisfy the bloodlust of the onlookers and to terrify anyone else who may step out of line.
Post by: The Red Baron on July 15, 2015, 11:38:06 am
The Victorians were also responsible for legislation which reduced the number of offences carrying a capital sentence- basically to treason and murder.
You can accuse the Victorians of many things, but hanging juveniles for minor crimes was not one of them.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 15, 2015, 12:40:12 pm
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 15, 2015, 01:51:59 pm
Oops! Apologies to the Victorians
Post by: The Red Baron on July 15, 2015, 02:42:32 pm
TRB
Oops! Apologies to the Victorians
BST
I realised you were quoting someone else, but there is a big misconception about "the Victorians." By today's standards, of course, they appear brutal and hard. But many of the social reforms whose benefits we enjoy today started in the Victorian era and then were carried on in the 20th century.
Post by: wheatleylad on July 15, 2015, 06:02:30 pm
Post by: The Red Baron on July 15, 2015, 06:29:20 pm
http://www.waspsnest.com/2011/11/19/july-1990-nicholas-ridley-on-the-eu-and-the-germans
Post by: Savvy on July 15, 2015, 07:26:41 pm
What the actual f....!!!!
Post by: Dagenham Rover on July 15, 2015, 08:50:20 pm
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 15, 2015, 11:30:53 pm
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/exclusive-yanis-varoufakis-opens-about-his-five-month-battle-save-greece
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 16, 2015, 12:08:44 am
Iv been looking forward to hearing what this fella has had to say about it all and it's a great read, so thought you may want to have a gander too.
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/exclusive-yanis-varoufakis-opens-about-his-five-month-battle-save-greece
Read that the other day. Varoufakis is something of a preening egotist, but he's right on the central issue.
The economics is mad and everyone involved knows it's mad. But it's being foisted on Greece anyway because of German politics.
And THAT, in a nutshell, is the core of this monstrous crime that we are seeing played out in front of us.
Post by: BobG on July 16, 2015, 12:43:51 am
When I listened to that Conservative Industry wallah rattling on today about how making sure that 4 out of every 10 who are eligible to vote must vote for a strike for it to be legal, oddly, it reminded me of Greece. Just like Greece, no one understands it. But that 40% threshold is going to cripple almost everyone in this country sooner or later.
Example: a decent turnout in a general election is 70% these days. Turnouts in union ballots are usually less. But lets assume it's 70%. That means that already 3 out 10 votes, effectively, oppose the strike motion. To then achieve a 40% threshold, the remaining 70% of voters must split 60/40 in favour. So, the ballot where a 40% threshold 'is reasonable' actually means that 60% of those voting have to vote yes. If the turnout is 60% (which is a more likely number) then 70& of those voting have to vote in favour.
See what they're doing? Trading on unfamiliarity wih numbers. Trading on pious crap from earnest sounding buffoons like that wally from Industry. We have seen the development of an institutional underclass. This sort of legislation will widen that underclass hugely. We have entered The Ages of the Haves and The Have Nots. The Haves, of course, possess every single ace in the pack. Money, experience, education, nepotism, contacts. It all gets passed from father to son and no bloody hairy arsed outsider is ever going to break in.
I do happen to know something about this. My son, for reasons which I wont go into, goes to a rather expensive private school. It's an astounding place. Really, really astonishing. The facilities, the resources, the experiences, the teaching, the whole damn works are mindbogglingly good. How many of you can afford to pay upwards of 30 grand every year to send one child to school? But that's not the worst of it: When you meet the other children, the parents, it smacks you right between the eyes - well, it does me anyway - just how unbelievably rich, how unbelievably privileged, how unbelievably blinkered, these people are. I feel very out of place in their company. Yet I'm no mug. Nor am I one of the unwashed poor. What chance has the vast majority of the population of this country got in a world where kids like this are going to inherit the earth from their families and the families of the friends they made at school?
It's effing obscene.
The Labour Party has a lot to answer for.
BobG
PS Is Greece another German war crime....? Conceptually, I suspect yes.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 16, 2015, 09:29:49 am
Its a greedy, self serving system that eventually eats itself as it offers little room for development.
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 16, 2015, 10:04:25 am
I've noted before that we've had 3 economic periods over the past 100 years.
1918-1939: Massive austerity to pay down the debts of WWI. Obscene imbalances in wealth. Huge unemployment and tiny social mobility. Social fracture across Europe. Collapse of democracies, leading to You Know Who and What.
1945-1976. We had even bigger debts and even bigger devastation to repair. And we did it in a totally different way. Keynesian demand management. Financial repression of the wealthy through high taxes and restrictions on mobility of money. Huge Govt involvement in funding and planning the economy. Strong trades unions to protect the workers. A commitment to full employment and opportunity for the poorer. Effectively a Social Contract. We were all in it together. And we had an economic miracle across Europe. Unprecedented period of stable growth. Unprecedented reduction in debt as a proportion of GDP. Unprecedented increase in productivity and innovation. Low unemployment. Rising living standards across the board. Massive reduction in inequality. Not perfect. Inflation came with it and got out of control in the 1970s, leading to...
1980-?? A reversion to neo-liberalism in economics. Destruction of unions. Acceptance of mass unemployment as an inflation-fighting mechanism. Freeing up of the "wealth creators". The result has been low inflation for sure. But growth that was lower than in the post-War period. Plus hugely unstable economic cycles with two major recessions (1980-83 and 08-??) that were worse than anything in the previous 40 years, and a third (90-92) that was not as severe but still pretty nasty). We've seen wealth imbalances return to the levels of the 1920s. We've seen median earnings stagnate whilst those at the top have exploded. We've seen the banking sector go berserk on its unrestricted freedom and gorge itself on crazy lending, then leave tax-payers to foot the bill and clean up the mess.
It won't stay like this forever. The current model is as broken as the previous 2 were in the late 30s and early 70s.
What scares me is what event it will take to shock us out if this model and into another. There is no sign of a gentle, measured change. There never is. The political establishment has too much invested in the status quo.
Last time, the revolution came through two astonishing, driven and committed politicians who dominated their era. Thatcher and Reagan. The time before, it was the consequence of another, even more astonishing, committed and driven politician that led to the collapse of the system and the re-birth with a new world economic system (although it wasn't the New Order that he had envisaged.)
I'm beginning to think that the catalyst this time will be the break up of the EuroZone, consequent global economic meltdown (because that WILL happen) and the emergence of our equivalent of the 1950s. More Govt control. Less freedom for the rich to do as they wish. Higher taxes and a simple, stable system. It'd be a very different world from today's but it worked after the last time Europe destroyed itself. I just hope that the only destruction Europe sees this time is as a result of economics and not as a result if guns and bombs.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 16, 2015, 10:32:11 am
Exactly. The slow eroding away of society has been a long, doctrined process which I wont imagine those with a vested interest, will give up easily. It doesn't help that the media has such an influence, but more and more people are waking up to the agenda behind the rags.
I think the Greek's may have already started the fall of the EU, as the treatment of them has been nothing short of criminal. The details that are coming out of the so called 'negotiations' each day, prove that there is not negotiation. If your economy does not work as a n EU member, it is now apparent that there is no get out or restructuring. Only a condemnation of your country, asset stripping and clearly, exercising democracy is pointless in its resistance.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 16, 2015, 11:39:55 am
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85671
Post by: Filo on July 16, 2015, 01:16:04 pm
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 16, 2015, 05:46:45 pm
http://escoriallaan.blogspot.be/2015/07/in-2011-at-height-of-sovereign-debt.html?m=1
And the author is scarcely a bleeding-heart pinko. He is one if the most respected academics of free-market economics.
In 50 years time, historians will be brutal in their assessment of what Europeans are doing to other Europeans here. And we in UK stand in the sidelines mithering about whether we temporarily lend 0.03% of our GDP to the pot.
Post by: Filo on July 16, 2015, 05:51:19 pm
Excellent and very readable summary of how the ECB is disgracefully and deliberately crashing the Greek banking system to pressure them into "behaving". Totally against all principles of what a central bank is supposed to do. And it's being done for political reasons.
http://escoriallaan.blogspot.be/2015/07/in-2011-at-height-of-sovereign-debt.html?m=1
And the author is scarcely a bleeding-heart pinko. He is one if the most respected academics of free-market economics.
In 50 years time, historians will be brutal in their assessment of what Europeans are doing to other Europeans here. And we in UK stand in the sidelines mithering about whether we temporarily lend 0.03% of our GDP to the pot.
They have a Central Bank to service the Euro, much like we have the Bank of England to service the Pound, I wonder if the EU would be so obliging towards us if we were in the same position as Greece?
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 16, 2015, 07:24:19 pm
Apart from the £800m of EU funds that went into re-building South Yorkshire from 2000-08.
Post by: Filo on July 16, 2015, 07:46:08 pm
Aye. And what has the EU ever done for us?
Apart from the £800m of EU funds that went into re-building South Yorkshire from 2000-08.
Theres a difference, they were EU grants, that were probably available to every other member Country of the EU, the UK make a significant contribution to the EU. In this case we are talking about a currency that we are not part of, but we are still expected to contribute towards it's continuing life support. Remember Black Wednesday? It cost the UK around £30b of reserves to prop up the £, interest rates soured briefly to 14%, where were our great friends in Europe then with the billions to help us out?
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 16, 2015, 08:47:05 pm
No. They were Objective One funding. They were money that the EU SPECIFICALLY allocated to South Yorkshire, because by the late 90s, we were one of the poorest regions in Europe. Poorer than parts of Portugal and Southern Italy.
A driving purpose of the EU has been to take from the richer areas and give a helping hand to the poorer ones. We have benefitted greatly from that. The consequences are all around you in the roads, bus stations, airport, offices all across South Yorkshire. The place (and our future as a result) are unrecognisable from what they wer like after 20 years of being left to rot. And it was EU money that made that possible.
Worth remembering when we bitch about pitching in now.
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 16, 2015, 09:22:19 pm
Regarding Black Wednesday, that money was lost because of a mistaken political policy. We could afford to lose that money. It didn't bankrupt us.
In fact, crashing out of the ERM was the single best thing that happened to our economy in decades. It led directly to a dramatic increase in growth that went on for a decade and a half. It would have been preferable if Lamont hadn't pissed away billions gambling that he could beat the market and keep us pegged to the DeutschMark, but that's a side issue. We could afford to lose that money without us being crippled.
Greece is different. Greece IS crippled. It has no money left. If it doesn't get emergency funds, it's economy will collapse. They will not be able to afford to buy medicines or oil.
There's a world of difference between the two cases.
(By the way, in 1976, when the Treasury thought [1] that we actually HAD run out of money and that we were in the edge of economic collapse, we were loaned money by the IMF. Here's the list of countries that lent money to the IMF to give to us:
Iran
Kuwait
Nigeria
Oman
Saudi Arabia
Venezuela
West Germany
Belgium
Sweden
Norway
Austria
Holland
Switzerland
Trinidad and Tobago
So yeah, when it looked like WE were in a situation like Greece, half the then EU pitched in to help.)
[1] As it happens, we didn't need the loan. The Treasury civil servants got their numbers wrong. But one of the pre-requisites of is getting the loan was that Callaghan's Labour Govt had to introduce swingeing austerity and the start of neo-liberal economics. Dennis Healy, the Chancellor then, swears that this was a coup d'état by senior civil servants who deliberately cooked the books to make a problem look like an existential crisis when it wasn't. Whatever the truth, that loan destroyed Labour's credibility and paved the way for Maggie.
Post by: BobG on July 16, 2015, 11:32:22 pm
Filo: there are several other, vastly different angles people should consider before reacching a conclusion about this question of whether or not to contribute a few coppers to the Greek bailout. My personal touchstone is that something like 90% of every major war the world has seen in the last 400 years has started somewhere in Europe. I mentioned before that only the Korean war and the Vietnam war started outside - and even then one of them had a European nation actively involved in sponsoring, and starting it. You could argue the US Civil war counts too but that wasn't a war 'between' nations. It was a very important war for all sorts of reasons, but it was an internal thing so I'm not counting it as a war in the context of this discussion.
Think about wars in Europe Filo. The 16.5 million military and the further 7 million civilians who died in WW1 plus the 16 million who died from influenza in 1919 all died because Europeans couldn't agree between themselves. The 60 million military and civilians who died in WW2 died because Europeans couldn't agree between themselves. The uncounted millions who died, starved or froze to death in the Napoleonic wars died because Europeans couldn't agree among themselves. The Franco-Prussian war. The War of Austrian Succession. The Crimean war. The Anglo Dutch wars. The War of the Spanish Succesion. The Seven Years war. The Carlist wars. The Austro-Prussian war. How many more millions Filo?
I can't understand why any right thinking person would not put preventing any repetition of that miles and miles and miles higher than a squabble about a petty three one hundredths of one percent of our income in one sngle year.
Pay the bloody money and pipe down. We really do need Europe to stay together. Look at the Kremliin. Do you want a fractcured Europe facing that madman once he becomes bored by the Ukraine? That man is positively dangerous. I can't tell you how I know, but he really is both scary and dangerous. We've discussed the re-emergence of an assertive and strong Germany beginning to once more dominate central Europe. Do you want to let Europe fragment so that the restraint imposed by the people and institutions of Europe withers away?
I tell you, keeping Europe together, collectively restraining each other, collectively talking to each other, is more important than ANYTHING else. Lose that and you can use your imagination about what will then happen.
And by the way,, all those numbers I've quoted are just for the dead. On top of all those dead people you can add, for example, 250,000 Englishmen who had to have a limb amputated during WW1. How many Frenchmen? How many Germans? How many Indians? How many Russians? How many Americans? How many? How many?? How many....???
Forget history at your peril Filo.
BobG
Later: lol! I've just re-read Billy's absolutely fascinating stat below. It's reminded me that the beginning of the end of the Roman empire in the west came from a crossing of the Rhine too. When the Goths, the Alans, the Franks and the Vandals got pushed west by the growing might of the nomadic tribes from the steppes they ended up crossing the Rhine. They ended up sacking Rome itself. That Rhine. It's allus been a reight bugger.
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 16, 2015, 11:44:52 pm
Between 400AD and 1945, an army crossed the Rhine aggressively on average once every 37 years.
Think about it. Think about it deeply before you start complaining about the EU.
EDIT: Between 111BC and 1945.
By the way, these are true figures. We're in a post-Mick zone here. Source available if anyone cares.
Post by: BobG on July 17, 2015, 12:32:16 am
Hands up again anyone who thought what they witnessed was pointless, boring or unemotional.
Hands up again anyone who thinks reminding ourselves about the impact of war is pointless.
And if anyone has not been to the Menin Gate at 8pm, any night, why don't you stop by on the way to wherever you're going. It's not hard to find. Its in Ypres. Belgium. Belgium isn't very big. It's got lots of floodlit motorways.
BobG
Post by: Tihsllub on July 17, 2015, 04:48:53 pm
Its time people realised that the shackling of nations together in an unsustainable currency is far more likely to lower the standard of living for everyone in Europe and sow the seeds of discontent leading to war.
Sticking with the EU to avoid war is the road to ruin and war.
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 17, 2015, 06:11:27 pm
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 17, 2015, 06:39:00 pm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lIpev8JXJHQ
Post by: wheatleylad on July 17, 2015, 06:45:40 pm
As for the subject of democracy, that is not the fault of Germany either. The Greek leader had a clear mandate to leave the Euro and chose to ignore it.
A bit of common sense please and less armchair politics. Live in the real world.
Post by: wilts rover on July 17, 2015, 07:00:24 pm
Post by: RedJ on July 17, 2015, 07:17:28 pm
Post by: i_ateallthepies on July 17, 2015, 10:01:31 pm
Post by: River Don on July 18, 2015, 12:12:05 am
As it is Greece will be back in the same desperate situation before very much longer, won't it?
Post by: BobG on July 18, 2015, 12:23:04 am
BobG
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 18, 2015, 12:27:43 am
Possibly. There's no question that (in their own interests) they should have done that in 2010 instead of taking the first bailout.
But if they hadn't taken the first bailout, they'd have brought down the entire Eurozone. It really was THAT serious. Greece defaulting would have led directly to Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland defaulting with catastrophe visited upon the European(and global) banks and economies.
It really doesn't bear thinking about.
But Greece didn't do that. They took one for the world. They took the bailout which gave the EZ a chance to sort out the banks' toxic debts.
That has reinforced Europe's foundations. But it has utterly f***ed Greece's economy, through the Austerity imposed on a Greece as a condition of the bailout. Why the f*** the Greek Govt didn't play a stronger hand in 2010 is anyone's guess. They should have said "yes we will take a bailout. To save Europe. But we are not applying your Austerity medicine. Try to impose that and we will default and bring your whole edifice down."
The tragedy is that, once Greece elected politicians who were prepared to have that strength, the EZ had put up firewalls and protected its banking system.
So, over the last month, when Greece upped the ante and hinted at leaving the Euro, what happened? The ECB called their bluff and crashed Greece's banks. Then Wolfgang Schaueble turned round and said, "Yeah? You want to push us into giving you a better deal? Well you can f*** off and leave the Euro. With no banking system and no means of paying for Aspirins for the next 6 months. Be my f***ing guest."
And Greece shite it and signed up to the humiliating deal on offer instead.
Greece has been played at every stage. They were mollycoddled into not defaulting when they had the power to. Then faced with Armageddon when they actually did threaten to.
Politics eh? f***ing tough stuff. And Wolfgang Schaueble is this generation's evil master of the art. He's won this battle. But f*** me, has he lost the long term war. By exposing the brutal, undemocratic issues at the core of the Euro, he has planted land mines under it. It's just a question of when they go off and bring the lot down.
Post by: River Don on July 18, 2015, 01:06:40 am
This Greek deal is not sustainable. They have done their best but everyone knows what they have signed up,for will not work. Either the EU gives way and is forced to behave like a single nation or Greece finds itself right back where it is now.
Post by: RedJ on July 18, 2015, 01:08:18 am
As you say BST land mines.
This Greek deal is not sustainable. They have done their best but everyone knows what they have signed up,for will not work. Either the EU gives way and is forced to behave like a single nation or Greece finds itself right back where it is now.
And I wonder which country would see itself as stepping up to the plate to take the lead role...
Post by: River Don on July 18, 2015, 01:09:51 am
Edit: not that I am very much against ze Germans these days. Volkswagen, Kraftwerk, Adidas what's not to like?
Post by: Filo on July 18, 2015, 07:38:02 am
I'm with Filo and Wheatleylad on this one. They've got a damn cheek wanting us to throw away a lot of money on a lost cause.
Its time people realised that the shackling of nations together in an unsustainable currency is far more likely to lower the standard of living for everyone in Europe and sow the seeds of discontent leading to war.
Sticking with the EU to avoid war is the road to ruin and war.
You mis quote me, I'm not against Greece getting a helping hand, I just think it's members within the Euro that should be helping, not members of the EU that are outside of the Euro
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on July 18, 2015, 08:25:09 am
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/ben-bernanke/posts/2015/07/17-greece-and-europe
Bernanke is of course the ex head of the Federal Reserve Bank in the USA who led them brilliantly through the recovery from the Crash. Because he spent decades studying the 1930s. Back in 2009, we had right wing idiots like Niall Ferguson and Peter Schiff screaming that a Bernanke was going to crash the dollar and turn the States into a hyper-inflationary nightmare like Zimbabwe. He was right, they were wrong, every step.
Now, this blog goes to the core of the Euro problem. He points out that Germany has an astonishingly strong export drive (yep RD, VW-Audi, Addidas, Siemens, BMW, etc, etc). But that has only been possible through help from the Euro. Because they have weaker economies tied into the Euro, the value of the Euro compared to the dollar, yen, pound, yuan etc is lower than the value of the DM would be. So their exports are cheaper. So they can sell more.
Germany has built its entire economy on exporting. They are brilliant at it. They don't consume as much at home and they see this as morally proper. They are denying their desires to build a strong future. And they scorn anyone who doesn't do the same.
Trouble is, it's a zero sum game. If I export more than I import, you must import more than you export. To be a morally admirable exporter, you NEED the feckless importer. Not everyone can be a Germany. It is logically impossible.
So it's not a morality game.
Now look at the economics. If Germany had its own currency, this would naturally peter out. Selling lots of exports drives up the value of your currency. Making your exports less attractive. Meaning you sell fewer exports. But this isn't happening to Germany. Because the Euro is being kept low by the catastrophe of the periphery countries' economies.
Look at it that way and the morality turns on it's head. Germany NEEDS other countries in the EZ to be basket cases if it's export mania is to continue. NOW who is the morally repugnant one?
The really sad thing is that the answer is bloody easy. As Bernanke points out, what the EZ desperately needs is for Germans to start spending and consuming. For EZ inflation to lift a bit. For the basket case countries to have a dynamic market to expiry THEIR products to, not only wine and sunny beaches but petrochemicals [1] and high level engineering products [2].
It's up to Germany. Does it continue it's infantile obsession with economics as morality, where it convinces itself that being thrifty and self-denying is good, or does it grow up and start taking on its responsibilities?
[1] One of the more depressingly bigoted comments that you see thrown about in this debate is that Greece has nothing to export but kebabs and olives. In fact Greece's largest export sector is oil and petrochemicals. It imports oil from the Middle East, processes and stores it and exports it to the rest of Europe. BIG export market. If Europe were growing.
[2] Like Italy for example, which had a vibrant and dynamic engineering sector, but which has been crushed by Germany having the same currency and therefore a huge advantage in the export markets.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 19, 2015, 08:07:38 am
RD
That has reinforced Europe's foundations. But it has utterly f***ed Greece's economy, through the Austerity imposed on a Greece as a condition of the bailout. Why the f*** the Greek Govt didn't play a stronger hand in 2010 is anyone's guess. They should have said "yes we will take a bailout. To save Europe. But we are not applying your Austerity medicine. Try to impose that and we will default and bring your whole edifice down."
BST. The Greek finance minister at the time was an unelected, pro European with ties to the right wing economics game. He was the one that passed the terms.
I can't be arsed to correct MadMicks new alias as he knows he's just adding a bit of bait with his uninformed and ignorant, tabloid headline, opinion.
Once Podemas win the next election in Spain, I think we'l see the fall of the EU. A louder voice to communicate all of its flaws.
Post by: BobG on July 19, 2015, 10:22:55 am
Oh. Mick. Don't bother replying to this. You're incapable of offering anything worth reading. Did you happen to learn how to use capital letters while you were on your sabbatical?
BobG
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 20, 2015, 10:38:33 am
Post by: wheatleylad on July 24, 2015, 03:02:22 pm
Oh dear Wheatleylad, only been on here a couple of weeks and you are already falling into the old 'madmickism' of doing exactly the same as that you are critising other people for.
I don't why you seem to be convinced that I am the other person. I am not. Is it so hard to believe that there may be more than one person who disagrees with some people on here? I have not personally attacked or abused anybody on here. I challenge their opinions , not attack the person. perhaps you could try and do the same?
Post by: wilts rover on July 24, 2015, 06:31:24 pm
Oh dear Wheatleylad, only been on here a couple of weeks and you are already falling into the old 'madmickism' of doing exactly the same as that you are critising other people for.
I don't why you seem to be convinced that I am the other person. I am not. Is it so hard to believe that there may be more than one person who disagrees with some people on here? I have not personally attacked or abused anybody on here. I challenge their opinions , not attack the person. perhaps you could try and do the same?
Yes you have:
I cannot believe the politically motivated comments being made here. No amount of socialist ranting can change the facts......
A bit of common sense please and less armchair politics. Live in the real world.
Those sentences are not challenging anyone's opinion, they are attacking people for posting - in a similar way to a well known previous poster.
I was not attacking you, I was giving you advice, however unlikely you are to take it. I don't disagree with your opinions...I don't agree with them either...but as a 'new' poster I suggest, again, you leave out the derogatory comments when posting them.
Post by: RedJ on July 24, 2015, 07:44:47 pm
Post by: donnyproletarian on July 24, 2015, 11:22:20 pm
How does this work out.Germany and England go to war mainly over cash.Millions die after being fed propoganda about the kieser bill killing babies.The 1st world war ends never to be repeated .We have homes fit for heroes promised by Lloyd George and the potential for revolution is thwarted as thousands of armed wage slaves return to the pits and squaler.
Meanwhile Germany are made to pay through the versailes treaty so history doesnt epeat itself.Enter Adolf who offers the Germans a way out blaming the nasty commies for their plight.He is democratically elected in publishing a book in which he turns against the jews for all to see.He invades one democracy after another.The Uk dont get involved until Poland is threatened as good old England has investments there.Enter Churchill who has flexed his muscles threatening Welsh miners with tanks.
We win the war but this times the spoils are divided up between the victors.The marshall plan is born.This is the scheme were millions of pounds of tax payers money is spent rebuilding their economy.Meanwhile the UK enjoys relative prosperity with the birth of the NHS and the welfare state.Concensus politics ensues backed by keynes economics.Labour dont try and nationalise the chip shops and the tories agree its a bad idea not to privatise everything.We have peace yupee.
However, nobody notices or appears bothered that wars are being fought by proxy in other peoples back yards
By the new superpowers USA and USSR.
Fast forward 50 odd years and we have the likes of Thatcher imposing the new economic monetarist bible on our population being told by the Yanks through the IMF that the welfare state has to go.By this time of course we have had the winter of discontent were a democratically elected labour government have been blackmailed into renading on its manifesto.
Multinational corporations and unacountable faceless bankers look to short term gains oblivious to the suffering around them as the decline in manufacturing means workers are no longer needed to maximise profits.When the brown stuff inevitably hits the fan , who do we blame.The Greek people for not living within their means.For Gods sake people how does that work.
Post by: IC1967 on July 25, 2015, 12:43:36 am
History a yorkshiremans perspective
How does this work out.Germany and England go to war mainly over cash.Millions die after being fed propoganda about the kieser bill killing babies.The 1st world war ends never to be repeated .We have homes fit for heroes promised by Lloyd George and the potential for revolution is thwarted as thousands of armed wage slaves return to the pits and squaler.
Meanwhile Germany are made to pay through the versailes treaty so history doesnt epeat itself.Enter Adolf who offers the Germans a way out blaming the nasty commies for their plight.He is democratically elected in publishing a book in which he turns against the jews for all to see.He invades one democracy after another.The Uk dont get involved until Poland is threatened as good old England has investments there.Enter Churchill who has flexed his muscles threatening Welsh miners with tanks.
We win the war but this times the spoils are divided up between the victors.The marshall plan is born.This is the scheme were millions of pounds of tax payers money is spent rebuilding their economy.Meanwhile the UK enjoys relative prosperity with the birth of the NHS and the welfare state.Concensus politics ensues backed by keynes economics.Labour dont try and nationalise the chip shops and the tories agree its a bad idea not to privatise everything.We have peace yupee.
However, nobody notices or appears bothered that wars are being fought by proxy in other peoples back yards
By the new superpowers USA and USSR.
Fast forward 50 odd years and we have the likes of Thatcher imposing the new economic monetarist bible on our population being told by the Yanks through the IMF that the welfare state has to go.By this time of course we have had the winter of discontent were a democratically elected labour government have been blackmailed into renading on its manifesto.
Multinational corporations and unacountable faceless bankers look to short term gains oblivious to the suffering around them as the decline in manufacturing means workers are no longer needed to maximise profits.When the brown stuff inevitably hits the fan , who do we blame.The Greek people for not living within their means.For Gods sake people how does that work.
I've read some drivel but this takes the biscuit. It's a good job I've decided to check in to see what has happened to the forum following my sabbatical.
First things first. I'm very disappointed in the lack of paragraphs and the spelling mistakes. It has really made my piss boil. I'd be here all day if I corrected all the errors so I'll just do a few. 'versaiiles treaty' should be Versailles Treaty. Is it just me around here that knows how to use capital letters? (BobG take note). Can we please have a space between the end of sentences and the beginning of the next ones? Is that too much to ask? I don't think so.
Squaler should be spelt squalor. Propoganda should be spelt propaganda. I could go on.
Take a leaf out of my book. Use grammer correctly and you will be taken far more seriously (note how many paragraphs I've used already).
I'm afraid any intelligent person reading your drivel will instantly dismiss your point of view because it is so badly worded and contains so many grammatical errors.
Go back and read some of my well constructed posts to learn how it should be done. I walked into a den of leftie vipers. When I left, this was a right wing forum. My work was done. Or so I thought. It seems you lefties need the voice of reason to keep an eye on you, so I have returned.
IC1967
Post by: BobG on July 25, 2015, 12:45:35 am
BobG
Post by: IC1967 on July 25, 2015, 01:01:49 am
Bejasus! He's a bloody recidivist as well...
BobG
Look. We may have had our differences, but I'd appreciate it if you could stop using words that only me, you, BST, wheatleylad, and Marydene Rover understands (apologies to the one or two of you that I have missed out).
Take a leaf out of my book. Talk in language that people understand. Stop trying to show off.
IC1967
Post by: wilts rover on July 25, 2015, 09:51:28 am
First things first. I'm very disappointed in the lack of paragraphs and the spelling mistakes. It has really made my piss boil. I'd be here all day if I corrected all the errors so I'll just do a few. 'versaiiles treaty' should be Versailles Treaty.
No it shouldn't, it should be the Treaty of Versailles.
If you are going to come on here and pick out faults with wot other people have ritten - then at least make sure you know what you are talking about.
I only have one issue with donnyproletarian post, the Marshall Plan didn't just rebuild the German economy after WWII, it rebuilt ours. We recieved more than twice as much money from it as they did.
Post by: wheatleylad on July 25, 2015, 11:20:14 am
Oh dear Wheatleylad, only been on here a couple of weeks and you are already falling into the old 'madmickism' of doing exactly the same as that you are critising other people for.
I don't why you seem to be convinced that I am the other person. I am not. Is it so hard to believe that there may be more than one person who disagrees with some people on here? I have not personally attacked or abused anybody on here. I challenge their opinions , not attack the person. perhaps you could try and do the same?
Yes you have:I cannot believe the politically motivated comments being made here. No amount of socialist ranting can change the facts......
A bit of common sense please and less armchair politics. Live in the real world.
Those sentences are not challenging anyone's opinion, they are attacking people for posting - in a similar way to a well known previous poster.
I was not attacking you, I was giving you advice, however unlikely you are to take it. I don't disagree with your opinions...I don't agree with them either...but as a 'new' poster I suggest, again, you leave out the derogatory comments when posting them.
I am not attacking the person personally. I am challenging their opinions. Please read what I say with objectivity. I have not swore at anybody, I have challenged their assertions. What is wrong with that? Are you frightened of a little debate?
Post by: IC1967 on July 25, 2015, 06:21:00 pm
First things first. I'm very disappointed in the lack of paragraphs and the spelling mistakes. It has really made my piss boil. I'd be here all day if I corrected all the errors so I'll just do a few. 'versaiiles treaty' should be Versailles Treaty.
No it shouldn't, it should be the Treaty of Versailles.
If you are going to come on here and pick out faults with wot other people have ritten - then at least make sure you know what you are talking about.
I only have one issue with donnyproletarian post, the Marshall Plan didn't just rebuild the German economy after WWII, it rebuilt ours. We recieved more than twice as much money from it as they did.
You only have one issue!!! That says a lot.
Take some advice. I before E except after C.
IC1967
Post by: donnyproletarian on July 25, 2015, 07:25:22 pm
NEXT PARAGRAPH
I seldom get to laugh which is why I like to visit this forum and read your verbal masturbation on the many issues you are expert in
NEXT PARAGRAPHxa
Remember that history is written by the victors.I could go on about the hidden cirriculum and the brainwashing process that goes on in our education system but I cant be harsed , sorry meant arsed.
In my defence I could go on about my struggle with manual dexterity , thick fingers in negotiating this new tablet.I could also mitigate my grammer errors by by polnting out that I was on my fifth pint.However ,on reflection the only thing I would add to the debate is that we should remember that Greece is the birthplace of democracy and that Pluto, sorry Plato , would be turning in his grave if he could see the younger generations being penalised for a system they have had no control over.
What the Greek youth need to do is to push there elected leaders into carrying out the mandate they are there for.Personally I would nationalise the commanding hights of the economy and place them under workers control.Then we need to follow suit so the nasty greedy bankers have no place to hide.
Welcome back my false consious deluded right wing buddy.Carry on with your school teacher bully boy tactics , they do more for the cause of socialism than I ever could.
PS Are you sure your not one of those agent provocitares dudes
Post by: IC1967 on July 25, 2015, 10:37:53 pm
Ic whatever, I will take it as a compliment that you can only slag off my grammer and not the content of my viewpoint.
NEXT PARAGRAPH
I seldom get to laugh which is why I like to visit this forum and read your verbal masturbation on the many issues you are expert in
NEXT PARAGRAPHxa
Remember that history is written by the victors.I could go on about the hidden cirriculum and the brainwashing process that goes on in our education system but I cant be harsed , sorry meant arsed.
In my defence I could go on about my struggle with manual dexterity , thick fingers in negotiating this new tablet.I could also mitigate my grammer errors by by polnting out that I was on my fifth pint.However ,on reflection the only thing I would add to the debate is that we should remember that Greece is the birthplace of democracy and that Pluto, sorry Plato , would be turning in his grave if he could see the younger generations being penalised for a system they have had no control over.
What the Greek youth need to do is to push there elected leaders into carrying out the mandate they are there for.Personally I would nationalise the commanding hights of the economy and place them under workers control.Then we need to follow suit so the nasty greedy bankers have no place to hide.
Welcome back my false consious deluded right wing buddy.Carry on with your school teacher bully boy tactics , they do more for the cause of socialism than I ever could.
PS Are you sure your not one of those agent provocitares dudes
I'm glad you are laughing with me. I do try to be entertaining as I dish out my pearls of wisdom.
One thing I will say for you. I do admire your passion. Keep up the good work. We may not see eye to eye but I do respect your opinion. I always give it great consideration before deciding I was right all along.
IC1967
Post by: wheatleylad on July 27, 2015, 05:15:23 pm
It's f***ing obvious who it is. The only way it could be more obvious is if he had a f***off hippo with a neon sign on its side reading "I'm Mick" as his avatar.
You really are obsessed with this "Mick" who you refer to. For the last time....I am not that person. Why do you insist on stating that I am? As I have said, is it too much for you to accept that there might be other people who challenge your opinions? I really find it funny that you obsess about him.
he disagrees with you and you plainly cannot handle it. All I can surmise is that you are an inexperienced adolescent, who lives on social media and not the real world.
Get over yourself.
Post by: BobG on July 27, 2015, 05:42:16 pm
Get help man. Before it's too late. You're really starting to sink now.
BobG
Post by: Orlandokarla on July 27, 2015, 06:34:50 pm
It's f***ing obvious who it is. The only way it could be more obvious is if he had a f***off hippo with a neon sign on its side reading "I'm Mick" as his avatar.
You really are obsessed with this "Mick" who you refer to. For the last time....I am not that person. Why do you insist on stating that I am? As I have said, is it too much for you to accept that there might be other people who challenge your opinions? I really find it funny that you obsess about him.
he disagrees with you and you plainly cannot handle it. All I can surmise is that you are an inexperienced adolescent, who lives on social media and not the real world.
Get over yourself.
"Wheatleylad," click on your name. Go to see posts by this user. Read them.
That's why everybody insists that you're Mick.
Post by: Orlandokarla on July 27, 2015, 06:39:06 pm
Oh dear, oh dear. Mick's now started replying to himself using another of his many different personas. Mick owd lad. You developing schizophrenia? It sure does look like it man. I've been worried for quite some time now by this pathetic rush to reply to your own posts. But now you've started doing it as one of the random imaginary friends you've created, well, the achizophrenia has just jumped to a whole new level.
Get help man. Before it's too late. You're really starting to sink now.
BobG
I just had a thought Bob; perhaps his multiple personalities are not aware of each other?
That would explain everything.
Post by: idler on July 27, 2015, 07:09:33 pm
Brilliant! 😂Oh dear, oh dear. Mick's now started replying to himself using another of his many different personas. Mick owd lad. You developing schizophrenia? It sure does look like it man. I've been worried for quite some time now by this pathetic rush to reply to your own posts. But now you've started doing it as one of the random imaginary friends you've created, well, the achizophrenia has just jumped to a whole new level.
Get help man. Before it's too late. You're really starting to sink now.
BobG
I just had a thought Bob; perhaps his multiple personalities are not aware of each other?
That would explain everything.
Post by: IC1967 on July 27, 2015, 07:50:25 pm
You lefties have to realise that there are people in this world that think along similar lines. It doesn't mean they are the same person.
There is one piece of evidence that categorically proves I'm not wheatleylad. He agreed with some of BST's opinions! Nothing wrong with that but can any of you ever recall me agreeing with anything BST has said? No. I didn't think so.
Once and for all, we are two different people.
I'm quite happy for the mods to confirm this. They will be able to see we have different I.P. addresses.
Once confirmed, I expect those doubters amongst you to issue an immediate abject apology to wheatleylad. You might also stop being so rude to him for no reason.
IC1967
Post by: Orlandokarla on July 27, 2015, 08:53:13 pm
Look. Its very simple. I am IC1967 and do not have an alter ego 'wheatleylad'.
You lefties have to realise that there are people in this world that think along similar lines. It doesn't mean they are the same person.
There is one piece of evidence that categorically proves I'm not wheatleylad. He agreed with some of BST's opinions! Nothing wrong with that but can any of you ever recall me agreeing with anything BST has said? No. I didn't think so.
Once and for all, we are two different people.
I'm quite happy for the mods to confirm this. They will be able to see we have different I.P. addresses.
Once confirmed, I expect those doubters amongst you to issue an immediate abject apology to wheatleylad. You might also stop being so rude to him for no reason.
IC1967
Well if you say so, it must be true. It's not as though you've ever given anybody reason to doubt your word. :thumbsup:
He does a bloody good impression of you, Mick; thinks like you, sounds just like you. The likeness is uncanny. It's not just what he says and how he says it, it's also what he doesn't say. He only posts on subjects that you would.
He agreed with BST on something, did he? Couldn't possibly be you then. Next he'll post a comment on football. That'll prove he isn't you. :whistle:
Check his profile, read his posts. IF, and that's the biggest IF in history, he is not an alt of yours, I'd be scared if I were you. Have you ever seen "Single White Female"?
It is my rudimentary understanding that IP addresses can show that two accounts are from the same address, but that anyone can alter their IP address with minimal effort, meaning that somebody with little expertise, could easily have a dozen alt accounts, all seemingly originating from a dozen different IP addresses. But then you knew all that already, didn't you?
Besides, how difficult is it to post from different locations anyway? I assume that like most people, I access this site regularly from a variety of locations, via several different networks.
Occam's Razor, Mick.
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 09:48:22 am
I would just ask that you stop being rude to wheatleylad (you know who you are). All he has ever done is express his opinion. He's done nothing to warrant abuse.
Send any abuse my way. It is water off a duck's back.
IC1967 (no aliases here)
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 28, 2015, 10:01:52 am
Donny Proletarian; are you involved at all in the Doncaster People's Assembly?
Post by: The Red Baron on July 28, 2015, 10:26:40 am
How long before people start referencing it in post match discussions? Maybe it could get worked into one of the Black Bank's chants!
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 10:46:57 am
Just returned from my holiday and noticed this thread was still alive. I was hoping for some rational debate from anyone with a differing view, but those that like to label anyone left of Mussolini a 'leftie' have just acted like a petty w**ker in correcting some errors into their version of English. People who skim over any actual content and contribution (as they have no reasoned response) is the sign of a sociopath, which explains why you endorse right wing, illiterate economics, so blindly. I cant understand how anyone in a working class town would uphold any ideal that they are so far from being part of. Its obvious some people just spout for the sake of attention, in any measure.
Donny Proletarian; are you involved at all in the Doncaster People's Assembly?
Another one who doesn't like to use paragraphs.
IC1967
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 28, 2015, 11:15:48 am
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 01:18:39 pm
Another one who prefers to promote his own version of English language rather than offer rational debate. Your posts on the Labour leadership thread are also very contradictory to what you have posted here, although im sure yourself and no one else cares as your objectives in posting are clearly not to discuss, but rather entertain yourself.
Excuse me. Where have I contradicted myself?
Evidence man. Where is it?
Look. I'm generally very relaxed about the standard of grammer on this forum. I merely give out advice so people like you can make it a far more enjoyable experience reading your drivel. Its not a lot to ask for. The other solution is to keep your posts short and to the point so the issue of paragraphs doesn't crop up again.
Thanking you in anticipation of your future cooperation.
IC1967
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 28, 2015, 01:47:40 pm
Your effectively blowing the trumpet of the biggest left wing voice there is in this country at this time.
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 02:25:23 pm
You want Corbyn to win the Labour leadership and start practicing left wing politics within the only threat to the Tory regime? You have placed large bets on him at 10/1. So not only do you somewhere see the sense in his ideas and how many Labour supporters are crying out for someone to ditch the Tory-lite approach, but you have also placed your hard earned cash, confident that he will win. Why, unless you just came on here to get into arguments, wherever you possibly can, would you do what you have done?
Your effectively blowing the trumpet of the biggest left wing voice there is in this country at this time.
I'm sorry but you've lost me. I can't see any contradictions whatsoever. Let me make it plain. Any gambling I do is with my head not with my heart. Politics doesn't come into it.
I personally see no overall sense in his policies. I do agree with some of them, for example getting rid of the Royal Family. I think he would make Labour unelectable so he has my full support. Also for democracy to work the voice of the left has to be heard. I'm quite happy for that to occur in the unelectable Labour party. It would keep people like you and BST happy while the rest of us could get on with making the state smaller and letting people keep more of what they earned.
IC1967
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 28, 2015, 02:34:29 pm
Why do you oppose the Royal Family? Single biggest demonstration of inequality? Proof that we have a dated 'master and servant' society?
Surely you would want a Balirite to win so that way, your beloved, self serving, right wing approach would be upheld either way, rather than having Corbyn rally the troops and give long time Labour voters and fence sitters something to get behind.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 28, 2015, 02:54:34 pm
The only people who are really, Corbyn-bashing right now, are the shit scared, Murdoch media. Read any reputable source and they will give you an impartial overview as to what he wants to achieve and how it will help a lot more in the UK, than the Tory's are currently helping. Not hard, when the latter, in real terms is simply the 1%. Im guessing your one of the Tory supporters that accounts for a few quid extra per month as benefitting you and therefore you offer a big thumbs up and sod anyone else.
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 03:24:13 pm
Which policies do you not see any sense in and why? Id love to see some real counter-debate from you, but of course this would probably take a few days for you to read up and form some rationale on.
Why do you oppose the Royal Family? Single biggest demonstration of inequality? Proof that we have a dated 'master and servant' society?
Surely you would want a Balirite to win so that way, your beloved, self serving, right wing approach would be upheld either way, rather than having Corbyn rally the troops and give long time Labour voters and fence sitters something to get behind.
Excuse me. You're talking to someone that has battered every leftie senseless in every debate I've ever had on this forum. Just ask BST. He's given up the ghost because I've made him look so ridiculous.
I have almost singlehandedly turned this hard left forum into a right wing one. Where have you been for the last few years?
It seems you have decided to be the next lamb to the slaughter. Right. You've asked for it. In future I will take your leftie, socialist view apart bit by bit. By the time I'm finished with you you'll be begging for mercy.
You have been warned.
IC1967
Post by: wheatleylad on July 28, 2015, 03:33:25 pm
I do agree with him on number of issues. Labour will be in the wilderness if it elects a left winger as its leader. What you are neglecting to consider is that whilst Doncaster may be a solid Labour seat, large tracts of England are not. Its called democracy. It will be a shame because the country needs a strong opposition to challenge the Tories. The Tories are far from perfect but the last Labour government made a mess. As someone who grew up in Wheatley, in challenging circumstances, I do not unreservedly support the Tories but I cannot support some of Labours policies.
I do not agree with him as regards the Royal family. I have met a number of them and attended a garden party at the Palace, so I could not be such a hypocrite. I think the Queen does a great job for this country.
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 04:20:36 pm
Tuition fees:
He wants to abolish them. He says a 7% rise in national insurance contributions for those earning more than £50,000 a year and a 2% rise in corporation tax will pay for this. This would represent a huge tax rise on people on relatively modest incomes. If we started raising corporation tax, we would be about the only country in the world to do so. Not a great idea when you want to attract foreign investment.
Bank of England:
He wants the BoE to print money to fund government infrastructure spending. He doesn't understand that there would be a huge inflationary impact on an economy already running close to full employment.
Industrial Investment:
He argues for a 'strategic, innovative state' to take over industrial investment. Has he not read the history books? Labour did this in the 1970's and saw most of the money vanish. At least then they borrowed it. He just wants to print it.
Austerity:
He campaigns against austerity, but conveniently ignores the fact that by any historical standards the UK is already running a huge budget deficit. In his fantasy world, governments can spend more than they raise in taxes forever!
Trade Unions:
He wants to strengthen trade union rights. Does he not realise we no longer need trade unions?
Private/Public Sector:
He wants to weaken the power of private companies to run their own affairs and at the same time increase the size of the public sector. Isn't the public sector big enough already?
Conclusion:
The man is a delusional fool (as are all lefties). His policies would not survive contact with reality. Soaring tax levels, combined with reckless money printing, would plunge the UK into crisis. Firms would disappear, the foreign investors who fund our huge trade deficit would take flight, and inflation would return rapidly.
It would be a disaster – as far left governments always have been. He believes every problem can be waved away with more debt and state intervention. If ever he got his way we'd all end up a lot poorer.
Luckily, Labour are unelectable so its not a big problem if he wins.
Its a good job there are people around like me to expose the vacuity of his thinking to stop you delusional lefties taking over.
IC1967
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 28, 2015, 04:52:40 pm
You fail to address the fundamental issues and suggest a viable alternate policy to what we currently operate under, or Corbyns suggested approach.
Tuition fee's. Its not as Black and White, as dismissing Corbyn's suggestion, whilst the current model is pricing the majority of our prospective students, out of an education. Is it more progressive, would you say, to keep the fee's as they are, where any young person with their head switched on can see that it is not worth the investment? The current model, means only a small privileged percentage of our society have the access into top jobs, where key decisions are made. It in itself, creates an undemocratic order of people in positions of power. It will promote, in the long term, incompetence throughout our industry and shunt many young potential pioneers into not realising their potential.
If a company wants to enter the UK market and be a beneficiary of our economy , but not do their part in order to maintain the climate in which they successfully trade, then another organisation will happily take their place and its a win win situation. If your happy having an illiterate demographic and subject generations to no university education, all so that your beloved Corporations don't take their ball home and make millions in profits (non of which will benefit your or your next man) then that is very short sited of you. We should not be held to ransom, to our own peoples detriment, on the conditions upon which we allow organisations to trade.
Il come back and address a few other of your points when Im home from work, as long as you want to continue with healthy debate of course.
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 04:58:40 pm
Just to be clear. I do not support the Labour party. They do not deserve to have Corbyn and his potential new direction, whilst the party is full of right-wingers and those that still want to operate without representing what they traditionally stand for.
You fail to address the fundamental issues and suggest a viable alternate policy to what we currently operate under, or Corbyns suggested approach.
Tuition fee's. Its not as Black and White, as dismissing Corbyn's suggestion, whilst the current model is pricing the majority of our prospective students, out of an education. Is it more progressive, would you say, to keep the fee's as they are, where any young person with their head switched on can see that it is not worth the investment. It will promote, in the long term, incompetence throughout our industry and shunt many young potential pioneers into not realising their potential.
If a company wants to enter the UK market and be a beneficiary of our economy , but not do their part in order to maintain the climate in which they successfully trade, then another organisation will happily take their place and its a win win situation. If your happy having an illiterate demographic and subject generations to no university education, all so that your beloved Corporations don't take their ball home and make millions in profits (non of which will benefit your or your next man) then that is very short sited of you.
Il come back and address a few other of your points when Im home from work, as long as you want to continue with healthy debate of course.
I'm all for it. Only by debating issues properly will you lefties see the light (as many have already done on this now right wing forum).
You should be warned though. The likes of BST and BobG won't want you to debate with me. They will try to warn you off. They hate it when anyone has a different opinion to them. They really dislike me for battering them senseless in previous debates. Me? I don't mind. All I ask is to be heard and if I can't convince you otherwise fair enough. Life would be boring if we all had the same opinion (take note BST and BobG).
IC1967
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 28, 2015, 05:19:05 pm
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 05:44:29 pm
I don't see much debate there. Only some self back patting and old scores you still feel the need to settle. I imagine the two posters you mentioned have seen your comments but see no point in contributing any further when you skip any debatable topics, insisting on berating left wing views and adding a few silly statements to assist the massaging of your ego. 1967? Chuff me, that's a long time to have been so self obsessed.
Excuse me. May I refer you to the quality of the post where I dismantled Jeremy Corbyn. That post is typical of my high quality offerings on this forum. The two posters I refer to only want to debate with like minded people. They consider right wingers to be the spawn of Satan. They stopped contributing to debates because I always make their point of view look stupid. They can't take it so resort to attacking me all the time. They are the ones doing the berating, not me. I merely offer the right wing perspective on life. I most definitely do not skip any debatable topics and have no need to massage my ego.
Self obsessed? Evidence man. Where is it?
IC1967 (your most humble servant)
Post by: wilts rover on July 28, 2015, 05:52:53 pm
First things first. I'm very disappointed in the lack of paragraphs and the spelling mistakes. It has really made my piss boil. I'd be here all day if I corrected all the errors so I'll just do a few. 'versaiiles treaty' should be Versailles Treaty.
No it shouldn't, it should be the Treaty of Versailles.
If you are going to come on here and pick out faults with wot other people have ritten - then at least make sure you know what you are talking about.
I only have one issue with donnyproletarian post, the Marshall Plan didn't just rebuild the German economy after WWII, it rebuilt ours. We recieved more than twice as much money from it as they did.
You only have one issue!!! That says a lot.
Take some advice. I before E except after C.
IC1967
Have you only just noticed? I realised months ago it was pointless debating anything with you as any topic you contribute to is always about the same subject... yourself.
As you continue to prove above.
Now if only you could take my advice, as wheatleylad did, and leave off the personal attacks and debate in a sensible manner the forum would be much more interesting.
Post by: IC1967 on July 28, 2015, 06:29:48 pm
First things first. I'm very disappointed in the lack of paragraphs and the spelling mistakes. It has really made my piss boil. I'd be here all day if I corrected all the errors so I'll just do a few. 'versaiiles treaty' should be Versailles Treaty.
No it shouldn't, it should be the Treaty of Versailles.
If you are going to come on here and pick out faults with wot other people have ritten - then at least make sure you know what you are talking about.
I only have one issue with donnyproletarian post, the Marshall Plan didn't just rebuild the German economy after WWII, it rebuilt ours. We recieved more than twice as much money from it as they did.
You only have one issue!!! That says a lot.
Take some advice. I before E except after C.
IC1967
Have you only just noticed? I realised months ago it was pointless debating anything with you as any topic you contribute to is always about the same subject... yourself.
As you continue to prove above.
Now if only you could take my advice, as wheatleylad did, and leave off the personal attacks and debate in a sensible manner the forum would be much more interesting.
Have I only just noticed what?
You say any topic is always about me. Evidence man. Where is it? What a silly statement.
You want me to leave off the personal attacks. Hahahahahahaah! I'm the one that is constantly attacked. My 'attacks' are very mild in comparison to what I have to endure. Can't you read man? Have a look. Some of the things that BobG, BST, etc have said in the past are nothing short of criminal. Its a good job for them I believe in free speech and have no desire to see them locked up.
IC1967
Post by: BobG on July 28, 2015, 11:54:14 pm
Take note:
'theirs'
'science'
And just for fun, all the ones that start with the letter 'h' that I can think of right now:
'herein'
'heir'
;height'
''heifer'
'heist'
heinous'
There. That took me less than 2 minutes Mick. And they come from just one letter of the alphabet. You were saying...?
There are well over a hundred such Mick. Do try to grow up man.
BobG
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 29, 2015, 03:29:51 pm
The worst thing is, that although the Tory's society eroding policies are criminal already, a left wing government in the UK would have the same issues if it were to challenge policy. I imagine the EU will have fallen long before any left wing government take power in the UK, which says more about the chances of the EU's house of cards not being pulled apart the people, rather than it being an excessive amount of time before we see political revolution here.
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-parallel-currency.html (http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-parallel-currency.html)
Post by: IC1967 on July 29, 2015, 04:44:21 pm
Excellent observations and dissecting of Syriza and Yanis Varafoukis' impossible task of negotiating the starving of an EU member Vs. Propping up the Eurozone's neoliberal, economically illiterate ideology.
The worst thing is, that although the Tory's society eroding policies are criminal already, a left wing government in the UK would have the same issues if it were to challenge policy. I imagine the EU will have fallen long before any left wing government take power in the UK, which says more about the chances of the EU's house of cards not being pulled apart the people, rather than it being an excessive amount of time before we see political revolution here.
http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-parallel-currency.html (http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-parallel-currency.html)
The trouble with you lefties is that you think Greece is not at fault in all this. Germany seems to be the one getting most of the blame. You've got it totally the wrong way around. Germany has been and is continuing to be very good to Greece. It has 'lent ' Greece an absolute fortune. It knows it won't be getting much of this money back. If Germany didn't keep giving them money they would be in a much worse position than they currently are.
Whose fault is it that Greece is in a mess? That's easy. It's Greece's fault. Unfortunately they think the rest of the world owes them a living. They think money grows on trees and they should be given as much as they want so they can maintain an unsustainable standard of living. Its called living well beyond your means. Now its payback time.
This is what happens when a socialist ideology permeates a society. I just don't understand why socialists are so economically illiterate. They just think raising taxes and borrowing money is always the solution to any problem.
Forget Greece. There is another example of what happens when socialists are put in charge. It's called France.
Just be grateful we live in a country run by right wingers that is creating more jobs than the rest of the EU put together. Why on earth Labour think we would want to lurch to the left when the evidence is plain to see. Socialism always ends in tears. Capitalism is the best way forward by far. It's time you lefties thought with your brains rather than with your hearts.
IC1967
Post by: wilts rover on July 29, 2015, 05:40:32 pm
A left-wing party is part of the German coalition discussing what to do about it.
It's time you used your brain to do some research before posting rubbish.
Post by: IC1967 on July 29, 2015, 06:03:48 pm
It was a right-wing party who took Greece into the financial crisis.
A left-wing party is part of the German coalition discussing what to do about it.
It's time you used your brain to do some research before posting rubbish.
What a simplistic load of cobblers. Read what I wrote. I said 'This is what happens when a socialist ideology permeates a society.' It is far too simplistic to label governments right wing or left wing. Greece has been run with a socialist ideology regardless of who was in power. That is the root of their problems.
A left wing party as part of the German coalition has got nothing to do with it.
It's very simple. Greece lived well beyond its means. Its payback time. Why on earth should they expect to keep being given money they will never repay? It is totally ludicrous.
IC1967
Post by: wilts rover on July 29, 2015, 06:44:17 pm
Post by: BobG on July 29, 2015, 09:58:18 pm
BobG
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 30, 2015, 12:23:47 am
The clue is in the term, 'global financial crisis'. The irresponsible, risky gambles by the IMF and its vertical market lending streams plunged Greece, Ireland, Iceland and Spain the worst of all into harsh economic times. The subsequent asset stripping disguised as austerity, along with threadbare amounts of money being spent and circulating to stimulate natural recovery. In no way is that the Germans being kind to them. It's a purposeful demantling of their assets for their gain.
Yanis Varoufakis presented a plan that could be worked with, but it was never even going to be considered. He could have presented the EU's terms word for word and it still would have been rejected. They were not interested in negotiating, as proved by their liquidating of their banking system. They just bullied them into accepting further austerity.
The EU cannot afford to let any more members do 'an Iceland', who you will notice are now non-existent to our mainstream media. Not good for business is it when your trying to endorse globalisation of neo-liberal, authoritarian economic ideals.
Whilst evidence also demonstrates the weaker EU members, under poorly performing economies keeps the Euro at a competitive rate for exports, which Germany have boomed as a result of. It wouldn't be in Angela Merkel's interests to fix that issue would it.
Post by: IC1967 on July 30, 2015, 12:03:09 pm
The true sign of a sun reader who steals a few fancy words to gloss over the shit they type, often share this 'Greece lived beyond their means' laughable nonsense.
The clue is in the term, 'global financial crisis'. The irresponsible, risky gambles by the IMF and its vertical market lending streams plunged Greece, Ireland, Iceland and Spain the worst of all into harsh economic times. The subsequent asset stripping disguised as austerity, along with threadbare amounts of money being spent and circulating to stimulate natural recovery. In no way is that the Germans being kind to them. It's a purposeful demantling of their assets for their gain.
Yanis Varoufakis presented a plan that could be worked with, but it was never even going to be considered. He could have presented the EU's terms word for word and it still would have been rejected. They were not interested in negotiating, as proved by their liquidating of their banking system. They just bullied them into accepting further austerity.
The EU cannot afford to let any more members do 'an Iceland', who you will notice are now non-existent to our mainstream media. Not good for business is it when your trying to endorse globalisation of neo-liberal, authoritarian economic ideals.
Whilst evidence also demonstrates the weaker EU members, under poorly performing economies keeps the Euro at a competitive rate for exports, which Germany have boomed as a result of. It wouldn't be in Angela Merkel's interests to fix that issue would it.
You really need to up your game if you want to debate with me. I'd be here all day if I dismantled all your drivel so I'll have to be selective. It is incontrovertible fact that Greece lived well beyond its means. Anyone that argues differently is just being plain silly. Don't you know Greece lied to get into the Euro? That is a far more relevant point (one of many).
It is simplistic in the extreme to say the IMF plunged Greece etc into the worst of all harsh economic times. In your simplistic world it is all the IMF's fault. Totally ludicrous. There were many factors at play and well you know it.
Greece owes around €56bn to Germany, €42bn to France, €37bn to Italy, and €25bn to Spain before any further bailouts are sorted. They are borrowing money to pay the interest on money they've already borrowed. A totally ludicrous situation. These countries aren't going to get their money back. They are going to give Greece even more money that they know they won't get back. So lets back off on the German bashing shall we. They are being more than generous to Greece and are getting little thanks for it.
The only way Greece will sort itself out is by defaulting and leaving the Euro and starting again with their own currency. I think Varoufakis knows this. He should do. Its blindingly obvious to anyone that knows anything about economics (unlike you).
IC1967
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 30, 2015, 03:28:13 pm
'Debating' with you is like debating with a child who sticks his fingers in his ears and makes noises while you speak. Your an arrogant and pathetic human who should know better that the ignorance you demonstrate for someone born in 1967. I'm '85 and feel like I'm the senior one here.
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 30, 2015, 03:33:35 pm
Post by: IC1967 on July 30, 2015, 05:09:10 pm
Well you have backed up my points very well then. Good to see we are on the same page. You say they are giving Greece more money that they can't pay back. Yes they are. Now it looks like your making progress in seeing how ridiculous the EU's terms are. Greece are not asking for the bailout and revised terms/additional loan, they are being forced to have it. Do you read anything but your own nonsense? Clearly not. Syriza have done everything to restructure the debt and their worst outcome would be to be given more bailout loans. It does nothing to stimulate the recovery and you, I, Greece and Angela Merkel know that. It is not the Eurozones intention to see Greece recover in their own manor no matter how reasonable their negotiations were.
'Debating' with you is like debating with a child who sticks his fingers in his ears and makes noises while you speak. Your an arrogant and pathetic human who should know better that the ignorance you demonstrate for someone born in 1967. I'm '85 and feel like I'm the senior one here.
You what? Have I chuff backed up your points very well. I've exposed them for the drivel they are. Have you heard the phrase 'looking a gift horse in the mouth?' Greece is being given lots of virtually free money and they almost turned it down. Unbelievable. They want to stay in the Euro. Why? Because they think they can just keep on getting free money and carry on without the structural reforms their economy needs.
They are not being forced to have the money. They can quite easily refuse it and default and start up their own currency. They keep taking the money because it delays the inevitable for now. They will eventually default and leave the Euro. Its just a matter of time. They should bite the bullet now and get on with it. The current state of affairs is no good to anyone.
You say 'Syriza have done everything to restructure the debt and their worst outcome would be to be given more bailout loans.' What a load of nonsense. What you should be saying is that Syriza want a huge chunk of the debt writing off. That's what they mean by restructuring. Then they want more money that will also eventually have to be written off. In effect they're saying keep on giving us the money so we can keep on living beyond our means. Totally ludicrous. If their worst outcome would be to accept more free money then why have they done this? No. The worst outcome would be for Syriza to stay in power with their own currency and to tax and spend to the hilt like all left wing governments always do and turn Greece into a third world country.
Syriza need kicking out and a right wing government needs to come in and sort the mess out with their own currency. That is the only hope for Greece.
I would have thought if you are 85 you are probably the oldest member of the forum. As such I've been very gentle with you as you must have fought in the second world war and we owe a great debt of gratitude to you.
IC1967
Post by: wheatleylad on July 30, 2015, 08:26:14 pm
1. No matter what 67 says he is always subjected to abuse and
2. As regards Greece, he is right. They have indisputably lived beyond their means. I cannot see how it can be denied. They have dug themselves into a huge hole. The only way out for them is to leave the Euro and default on their debts. They will never repay them. The Germans are not to blame. I am no fan of the Germans but to blame them is a gross misrepresentation of the facts and almost smacks of anti German bias.
Once again a few people on here degenerate into personal attacks when they are challenged on their opinions.
Its no wonder Ed Milliband was given a safe seat in Doncaster. It seems a hat stand with a rosette can be voted in there. Why do you ignore what damage Labour did to this country.
Mass immigration?
War?
Economic chaos?
Corbyn seems a decent chap but he is living in a post war socialist bubble. The global situation has moved on. If he wins it will take Labour back to pre Kinnock days.
Post by: wilts rover on July 30, 2015, 10:58:26 pm
Of course there was another way. Germany could have chosen to write off Greece's debt - as Greece did to Germany when they were unable to pay off their war loan in 1953. They put profit before morals and ethics. Which is also a good summary of IC1967's position on the Labour leadership it would appear.
Labour caused the fall of Leeman Brothers & the collapse of the American sub-prime market, really?
Immigration to the UK last year was higher than at any time under Labour.
The country told Tony Blair not to go to war - he wouldn't listen. Parliament told Cameron not to bomb Syria, neither would he.
Post by: IC1967 on July 30, 2015, 11:28:39 pm
Wheatleylad
Of course there was another way. Germany could have chosen to write off Greece's debt - as Greece did to Germany when they were unable to pay off their war loan in 1953. They put profit before morals and ethics. Which is also a good summary of IC1967's position on the Labour leadership it would appear.
Labour caused the fall of Leeman Brothers & the collapse of the American sub-prime market, really?
Immigration to the UK last year was higher than at any time under Labour.
The country told Tony Blair not to go to war - he wouldn't listen. Parliament told Cameron not to bomb Syria, neither would he.
What a load of cobblers. Germany has already written the money off. They are going to give them even more that they have also written off. They can't publicly admit that they've written it off or they would be voted out of office but anyone that knows anything about this situation knows the money has been written off. Other countries have written the money off. This includes Spain, Italy and France who're all struggling financially. They will also give Greece more money that they will write off. Totally crazy.
What's wrong with my position on the Labour leadership? There is an opportunity to make good money. Morals doesn't come into it. All I've done is given people the benefit of my expertise and told them to lump on at 3/1. I was ahead of the game. That's all. I've made a fortune already because I've now decided to lay him off just in case he doesn't win and because I'm not greedy. Remember who tipped the Tories for 2 years solid. Yes that was me. I made a fortune on that one as well.
IC1967
Post by: BobG on July 31, 2015, 12:01:57 am
Anyway., Mick, have you learned how to use capital letters yet??? It's really quite important you know. There's plenty of good folk on here could help you out. You only have to ask. Nicely. Think you can do that?
BobG
Post by: IC1967 on July 31, 2015, 09:31:59 am
Please don't give an impression, Wilts, that Wheatley is anybody other than that fathead Mick in yet another silly and threadbare disguise. Have you noticed just how often good ole Wheatlet pops his head over the parapet to sing 1967's praises? It's so transparent it's laughable. It really does demonstrate just how dim Mick must be for him to think folk wouldn't see straight through that.
Anyway., Mick, have you learned how to use capital letters yet??? It's really quite important you know. There's plenty of good folk on here could help you out. You only have to ask. Nicely. Think you can do that?
BobG
By your logic if wheatleylad is indeed a different person (which he is) that would mean that you are the one that is dim.
Don't need any help thanks but I think we all know who does.
IC1967
Post by: BRMC_rover on July 31, 2015, 06:41:34 pm
You need to start joining the dots up instead of just reading a small joke news section, on the situation in Greece, courtesy of The Sun.
Have a read over the article I posted on page 2 of this thread. It's former Greek finance Mister, Yanis Varafoukis. It shows how there was no negotiation. It's extremely anti-democratic. Greeted people did not want further loans, no did their government, but they were bullied into taking it. They are now living in Germany's pocket until the Euro fails. Generations of Greeks who played no part in the mess, subjected to poverty. A constant source of interest from the loan and control over their state assets pumping revenue straight out of greeces economy. It's really quite brutal.
BRMC_Rover (1985)
Post by: IC1967 on July 31, 2015, 06:52:13 pm
How exactly would they be kicked out of office if they made it public, that they wrote the debt off? Whose office? Who would replace them? I'd love to hear your explanation when the EU members negotiating are an un-elected group with no opposition 'party' to replace them.
You need to start joining the dots up instead of just reading a small joke news section, on the situation in Greece, courtesy of The Sun.
BRMC_Rover (1985)
Angela Merkel would be kicked out of office if she admitted to the gullible Germans that they won't be getting their money back. Its called politics. Its when leaders treat their electorate as fools which they do all the time. Why do they do it? Because only 5% of the population are interested in politics. The opposition would replace them. Who do you think?
You are starting to become incoherent. Take a chill pill and read what I've written a bit more closely before you make yourself look daft again. You need to up your game considerably. I nearly didn't bother replying because you obviously haven't understood what I said.
IC1967
Post by: wilts rover on July 31, 2015, 07:04:10 pm
What's wrong with my position on the Labour leadership? There is an opportunity to make good money. Morals doesn't come into it. All I've done is given people the benefit of my expertise and told them to lump on at 3/1.
That's all you have done? Really? So as a confirmed right-wing UKIP supporter are you saying this is untrue then?
Just paid my £3 and voted for Jeremy. I really hope he wins.
Post by: wilts rover on July 31, 2015, 07:11:48 pm
It's only a football forum, it's not worth getting worked up about.
Post by: IC1967 on July 31, 2015, 07:17:23 pm
How exactly would they be kicked out of office if they made it public, that they wrote the debt off? Whose office? Who would replace them? I'd love to hear your explanation when the EU members negotiating are an un-elected group with no opposition 'party' to replace them.
You need to start joining the dots up instead of just reading a small joke news section, on the situation in Greece, courtesy of The Sun.
Have a read over the article I posted on page 2 of this thread. It's former Greek finance Mister, Yanis Varafoukis. It shows how there was no negotiation. It's extremely anti-democratic. Greeted people did not want further loans, no did their government, but they were bullied into taking it. They are now living in Germany's pocket until the Euro fails. Generations of Greeks who played no part in the mess, subjected to poverty. A constant source of interest from the loan and control over their state assets pumping revenue straight out of greeces economy. It's really quite brutal.
BRMC_Rover (1985)
Excuse me. No negotiation? They were at it for many weeks. The Greeks did want a further loan. You've got that one completely wrong. They wanted a loan to pay the interest on the previous loans. They have no intention of paying it all back. they just want loans to cover the interest on previous loans. You couldn't make it up.
Bullied into taking it? Are you having a laugh? The EU was prepared to give them money that they knew they weren't going to get back. I'd call that being extremely generous. I reckon most people involved in the so called negotiations would have been quite happy for Greece to refuse their virtually free money.
The EU is brutal. The Greeks want to stay part of it. I can't for the life of me understand why. They are a basket case economy and have been for decades. They are totally unsuited to bein in the Euro and should do the decent thing and default and start again with their own currency. Then then might decide to get their act together instead of asking for other people's money all the time.
IC1967
Post by: IC1967 on July 31, 2015, 07:20:23 pm
Sorry Bob, I dont believe he is. It could be Marydene, or another brother, maybe his son, or someone from the Facebook group, or someone else entirely, but whoever does post under the name wheatleylad does so in a polite and reasoned manner which is fine with me. I dont agree with his postings, but the way he has posted is fine with me.
It's only a football forum, it's not worth getting worked up about.
Right then daft Bob. Are you going to do the decent thing and offer up an abject apology to wheatleylad? You know you should. Doesn't say much for your powers of deduction does it.
IC1967 (not wheatleylad)
Post by: IC1967 on July 31, 2015, 07:24:36 pm
What's wrong with my position on the Labour leadership? There is an opportunity to make good money. Morals doesn't come into it. All I've done is given people the benefit of my expertise and told them to lump on at 3/1.
That's all you have done? Really? So as a confirmed right-wing UKIP supporter are you saying this is untrue then?Just paid my £3 and voted for Jeremy. I really hope he wins.
What you on about? I've made a fortune backing Jeremy as has anyone else that took my advice when he was 3/1.
You don't get it do you? By voting for Jeremy us right wingers get what we want. A totally unelectable Labour party which leaves the way clear for UKIP to storm through and ensure the country is right wing for decades. Any right winger worth his salt should pay £3 and vote for Jeremy. Well worth the money.
IC1967
Post by: wilts rover on July 31, 2015, 08:05:36 pm
What's wrong with my position on the Labour leadership? There is an opportunity to make good money. Morals doesn't come into it. All I've done is given people the benefit of my expertise and told them to lump on at 3/1.
That's all you have done? Really? So as a confirmed right-wing UKIP supporter are you saying this is untrue then?Just paid my £3 and voted for Jeremy. I really hope he wins.
What you on about? I've made a fortune backing Jeremy as has anyone else that took my advice when he was 3/1.
You don't get it do you? By voting for Jeremy us right wingers get what we want. A totally unelectable Labour party which leaves the way clear for UKIP to storm through and ensure the country is right wing for decades. Any right winger worth his salt should pay £3 and vote for Jeremy. Well worth the money.
IC1967
Nor apparently do you - other than confirming my previous post on your ethics and morals.
Once a salesman - always a salesman.
Post by: BobG on July 31, 2015, 10:18:55 pm
As for Mick, do you reckon his brain has softened now having to keep up with everything he invents? He's consistently been making more and more mistakes for a while now. The one you pointed out is simply one amongst many. Maybe it's all that mental masturbation he's been doing for years now? No end product though. Best get 'em counted Mick.
BobG
Post by: i_ateallthepies on August 01, 2015, 05:54:37 pm
Post by: IC1967 on August 01, 2015, 10:09:12 pm
I'm with you Bob, the fool has had more reincarnations than Dr Who and expects us to believe this time it isn't him???
You may think I'm a fool. No doubt you would feel foolish if wheatleylad was not an alias of mine.
IC1967 (not the fool)
Post by: wheatleylad on August 05, 2015, 10:33:24 am
Post by: bobjimwilly on August 05, 2015, 11:32:02 am
Post by: Iberian Red on August 05, 2015, 02:26:25 pm
Some of you would do badly in the CID! I am my own man, hard as it is for some of you to grasp!
Can I smell bacon?
Anyway,there's a contradiction in your post. A pre-requisite for joining the C.I.D is doing badly.
Post by: BobG on August 06, 2015, 11:45:34 pm
BobG
Post by: BRMC_rover on August 11, 2015, 09:42:23 am
Post by: donnyproletarian on August 13, 2015, 04:52:46 pm
While being under no illusion that things are turning nasty we should not be conned by these clowns in UKIP who are peddling the myth that kick a few immigrants out will solve our economic problems.Farrage being an ex banker doesnt seriously beleve his own propoganda.Anybody who has studied economics understands the basics that when you take out X ammount of consumers from the market it will relatively contract by the same number of commodities .So we still end up with the same number of unemployed etc .Its irrelevant whether they are black, yellow or pink with red stripes.Please feal free IC whats it, to correct my understanding of supply and demmand as the Oxford college I attended did not have economics for dummies on its reading list.
The way forward is to unite people accross nation states as together we can progress to world were we are not subject to the whims of a capitalist world in crisis which will inevitably choke on its own greed.
Tin hat is on .Let the barrage of insults commence
Economics apart we owe a duty of care to the human beings who are suffering not least because of the part this country played in its colonial past.This is a moral argument but is no less valid or relevant in todays political climate.
Post by: wilts rover on August 13, 2015, 06:45:51 pm
Post by: BobG on August 13, 2015, 11:38:59 pm
Hi DP. Well, yes. And no. The snag with that argument is that it has been tried before. And it failed. Catastrophically. The workers across Europe were all supposed to unite in opposition to all those nasty declarations of war in 1914. There had been quite a lot of talk and agitation and expressions of support for it before the war. There were conventions about it. Stockholm springs to mind for example. But the pesky workers wouldn't unite. So they died instead. What makes you think success will follow someone encouraging workers to unite in support of what the press will inevitably and categorically label as a revolution?
BobG
Post by: donnyproletarian on August 14, 2015, 01:50:48 am
Bob G
Not saying I have all the answers but I do believe that to continue as we are is a recipe for disaster.
You are right about the 1917 revolution but need to take account of the blockades , famines etc that followed from isolation .Weigh this however, against the economic gains made with Russia going from a peasant economy to a super power in fifty years on the basis of a planned economy.
Marx as a scientist got it wrong as he thought Socialism would occur in a industrial country first.He also could not have foreseen the likes of Stalin who stands along side Hitler with his record on human rights.Marx had the idea that socialism was a transition to communism when the state would wither away .Hence justifying the one party state through democratic centralism a distortion of what Lenon termed the vanguard or elite.I dont buy into this idea.
I do think however that Russia demonstrates an embrionic idea of what could be possible with a planned economy.In the UK we already have a planned economy.The difference its planned in the interests of big corporations and dependent on the suffering of millions.
There needs to be a debate on how we choose to live as a society with safeguards in place that protect our most vulnerable members.
Someone once said there is enough money for everyones need but not enough for everyones greed.I believe this as this mentality is encouraged by the kind of world we live in.However, I dont buy into the argument that human nature dictates we are all greedy bas**rds.We do what we need to survive through economic constraints.There are instances in history were people have altuistically and collectively united to overcome hurdles in the interests of what they perceive as the common good.Dont be frightened of the word revolution its whats needed but it has to start from within .
Post by: wheatleylad on August 16, 2015, 08:19:01 pm
Some of you would do badly in the CID! I am my own man, hard as it is for some of you to grasp!
Can I smell bacon?
Anyway,there's a contradiction in your post. A pre-requisite for joining the C.I.D is doing badly.
Some of you people really make me laugh. When are you going to grow up and leave the playground. Did your mother not tell you that name calling is rather childish.
Why the anti Police jibe? I suspect that you haven't got the balls to be a copper, not to mention the common sense.
Post by: Iberian Red on August 18, 2015, 06:00:47 pm
Is English also your second language?Some of you would do badly in the CID! I am my own man, hard as it is for some of you to grasp!
Can I smell bacon?
Anyway,there's a contradiction in your post. A pre-requisite for joining the C.I.D is doing badly.
Some of you people really make me laugh. When are you going to grow up and leave the playground. Did your mother not tell you that name calling is rather childish.
Why the anti Police jibe? I suspect that you haven't got the balls to be a copper, not to mention the common sense.
Post by: Iberian Red on August 18, 2015, 06:05:37 pm
Common sense???Some of you would do badly in the CID! I am my own man, hard as it is for some of you to grasp!
Can I smell bacon?
Anyway,there's a contradiction in your post. A pre-requisite for joining the C.I.D is doing badly.
Some of you people really make me laugh. When are you going to grow up and leave the playground. Did your mother not tell you that name calling is rather childish.
Why the anti Police jibe? I suspect that you haven't got the balls to be a copper, not to mention the common sense.
She told me to have more ambition and become a traffic warden.