Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: bobjimwilly on September 16, 2015, 02:54:15 pm
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meanwhile, down in the commons...
Commons back Osborne plan for tax credit cuts (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34260902)
Well done to the media and press for letting that one slip under the radar :mad:
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
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He was moaned at for joining the Privy council for being a hypocrite. What ever he does will be pulled to pieces.
He should give Cameron a smack during PMQs and claim parliamentary privilege. The papers couldn't hate him anymore than they do.
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.
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Corbyn can't win on this one.
If he doesn't sing it then he gets criticised for being unpatriotic.
If he does sing then he gets criticised for being a hypocrite.
I reckon a respectful silence was his best bet. Now the Labour Party have said that from now on he will sing it...
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Did anyone see this "story" on News at Ten last night?
It followed a story of children suffering horrific injuries during the violence in Syria.
Now tell me which is the most important story?
Who gives a f**k about Corbyn and the Anthem? I certainly don't... It's a non-story and one of the reasons I have nothing to do with politics..
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I for one hope he never gets in , for years I voted Labour at every election, by-election,council election, but never again. I just do not see what he brings to the table
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Draytonian
He brings the only sanity on macroeconomics being talked by anyone in UK politics for a start.
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I have expressed my opinion in which I'm allowed to do
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I for one hope he never gets in , for years I voted Labour at every election, by-election,council election, but never again. I just do not see what he brings to the table
Cutlery,napkin and facial hair.
Oh,and maybe a different opinion.
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.
Give us a national anthem that's about the nation and not about an unelected head of state and their imaginary friend and I'll respect it.
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I have expressed my opinion in which I'm allowed to do
(https://yandoo.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/8c3957_5322146.jpg)
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The way people are carrying off you'd think he'd torn down and shat on the Royal Standard before windmilling in the Queen's face.
Get some f**king perspective.
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It's a song, not the end of the world.
But given what it means to people, it's a song he should just sing. Whether he believes in the monarchy or not is irrelevant, it's the symbolism of the song that is important and should be respected really.
If he really believes it perhaps he should put the removal of the monarchy as a policy and changing of the anthem? Let's see how real his beliefs are! There are lots of things I don't really believe in but I have to get on with them don't I?
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But given what it means to people, it's a song he should just sing. Whether he believes in the monarchy or not is irrelevant, it's the symbolism of the song that is important and should be respected really.
If he doesn't want to sing a song about a monarchy he doesn't believe in or a god that doesn't exist, then it should be his choice not to sing it, regardless of what it means to others. HOWEVER if he wants to avoid the papers turning such things into a national headline and would rather have them focus on the important issues, then he should maybe just sing the f*cking song LOL
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I really hope he sings it in a jazz style, complete with wobbly hand movements.
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interesting article here: http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2015/09/refusing-sing-national-anthem-jeremy-corbyn-joins-long-tradition-respectful
in summary, "it is more important than ever that those with a public platform are allowed to speak – and to sing – freely, or to preserve a dignified silence."
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I have expressed my opinion in which I'm allowed to do
In his own way, so did Corbyn over the National Anthem.
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It's a song, not the end of the world.
But given what it means to people, it's a song he should just sing. Whether he believes in the monarchy or not is irrelevant, it's the symbolism of the song that is important and should be respected really.
If he really believes it perhaps he should put the removal of the monarchy as a policy and changing of the anthem? Let's see how real his beliefs are! There are lots of things I don't really believe in but I have to get on with them don't I?
BFYP
1) What exactly IS the symbolism of our National Anthem?
2) Given what saying Allahu Akbar means to people, maybe he should chant that too?
I'm always fascinated that people (not you btw - I'm ribbing you above) who claim that we are better than most countries because we believe in freedom of expression, are often the first ones to get arsey and shout "disgrace" when someone exercises that right in a way that they don't like.
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He no longer has the luxury of being a non entity. He is now the leader of the opposition. he must therefore act with some measure of decorum. Whatever his beliefs on the monarchy, the Queen represents the state and so should be respected. The same applies to our anthem. Not to sing is just plainly childish and does him no favours.
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Did anyone see this "story" on News at Ten last night?
It followed a story of children suffering horrific injuries during the violence in Syria.
Now tell me which is the most important story?
Who gives a f**k about Corbyn and the Anthem? I certainly don't... It's a non-story and one of the reasons I have nothing to do with politics..
bump
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I don't remember this outrage when Wayne Rooney didn't sing the national anthem.
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I don't remember this outrage when Wayne Rooney didn't sing the national anthem.
Precisely, it's a non-story.
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He no longer has the luxury of being a non entity. He is now the leader of the opposition. he must therefore act with some measure of decorum. Whatever his beliefs on the monarchy, the Queen represents the state and so should be respected. The same applies to our anthem. Not to sing is just plainly childish and does him no favours.
Eyup Mick :)
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I wonder if he would sing the national anthem if it was the red flag?
He and his supporters have just hijacked the Labour Party as a vehicle
For their unelectable policies. It's Militant all over again.
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I wonder if he would sing the national anthem if it was the red flag?
Well yes. Because he believes in its lyrics.
Unlike GSTQ. As he's an atheist. And a republican.
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I wonder if he would sing the national anthem if it was the red flag?
He and his supporters have just hijacked the Labour Party as a vehicle
For their unelectable policies. It's Militant all over again.
I disagree, they haven't hijacked anything, they were democratically elected by the members of the Labour party
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Well. Throughout the 80s, the Bennites insisted that Labour was losing elections because it wasn't sufficiently far to the left. We'll see know.
As for the poppy and the IRA and the tie and the national anthem, I have to say I am squirming with embarrassment watching this.
Apparently Corbyn's spokesman has said that he WILL sing the NA in future. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34263447
So this doesn't come across as a principled stance. It comes across as a puerile, ill-thought out stance from someone who has made a career sniping from the sidelines and showing off his ideological purity, but who is now having to grow up rapidly.
If you don't believe in singing the NA and you really want to stick to that line, don't f**king sing it.
If you don't believe in the NA but you're prepared to grit your teeth and swallow your principles to out on a facade, f**king sing it.
What you DON'T do is to amateurishly draw the attention into your principles, then apologise for them and say that you'll change.
He's living up to exactly what I've always thought he was. A student politician who never grew up. I fear that he will be slowly chewed up and spat out. Not rapidly, though he could be. The Tories don't want him out quickly because then Labour might come to its senses. They will torture him with excruciating slowness. Roast him at Gas Mark 2.
I am truly shellshocked that Labour's members could have been so self-indulgently stupid.
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John McDonnell was engaged in a lot of apologising for things he had said in the past on QT last night too. Though I thought he made a decent effort in explaining what motivated him at the time. It seems being thrust into a position of responsibility is really forcing them to reassess.
Corbyn should probably have stuck to not singing the NA, by agreeing to do it in future he will only draw more attention to it and he's now succeeded in making himself look silly for the reasons BST has pointed out.
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He makes himself look worse than silly RD. He makes himself look weak, unprepared and susceptible to being bullied. Not good traits in a potential PM.
It's only a first impression. But as a wise old man once said: never trust first impressions, but never forget them either. This WILL have a lasting effect. Look at Michael Foot. No-one remembers that he was among the very few patriots who called for us to take military action against Hitler in the mid-30s when appeasement was the vogue. Everyone remembers that he was the man who looked scruffy at the Cenotaph and "obviously" was disrespectful to the people who died fighting Hitler.
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His 'Donkey Jacket' was actually an expensive car coat from Harrods.
Someone needed to tell him to change it straightaway, now it's probably the thing that people most associate him with.
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RD
Re:Foot.
I know but 99% of the population swear he wore a donkey jacket with NCB on the back of it.
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Is it a myth or didn't the Queen actually compliment him on his coat?
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Is it a myth or didn't the Queen actually compliment him on his coat?
I think it was the Queen Mother actually. But his coat didn't upset the Royals.
Re. McDonnell. It was good that he apologised for saying that the IRA should be honoured. However the reasons he gave for saying what he said made it sound like he was a leading light in the negotiations over the peace process. Rather than just a gobby backbencher shouting his mouth off.
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Billy, you're already doing the dirty work for the tories. I couldn't give two shags of a pony's banjo what he wears, what he sings, when he sings, how he appears, what he says every second of the day (and whether he contradicts himself). How about let him be a human being beset by the inner conflicts we all are. You accuse him of some naive student politics yet you've set about pulling down every aspect of his character and those facets that you may have missed - you've gleefully pointed out (what now must be dozens of times) that the tories will soon tear him to pieces!
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Appearance means quite a lot in the media age. It may seem facile but there it is.
If Corbyn wore clothes that actually fit he'd look quite smart, even with an open shirt and no tie. He is a slim fella and can probably wear a suit well. It's the fact everything he has is too big that makes him look a scruff.
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I haven't worn matching socks for going on two years now and I don't think my stock as a human being has drifted in either direction. Maybe it has, who knows, modern 'politics' now has me doubting myself. Is this what people want? A cross between catwalk and instagram politics.
What an odd little island we live on.
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You aren't standing for PM and being scrutinised by the media Copps.
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Thank god because even though my socks usually don't match I have a system that works perfectly.
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Just on the original subject by the way - it is possible to have a problematic relationship with the national anthem. There's no absolute answer.
I despise nationalism because it's based on fear but I am patriotic to a point and culturally identify and love many aspects of this country. Thirdly, I think songs of camaraderie are actually a good thing - after all that's what we do at football matches isn't it? But the words to our national anthem are just plane out of date and out of kilter with many people's dispositions. Occasionally I have sung the national anthem (mostly when I was younger) but now I largely don't. A war anniversary is probably close to last on this list I would want a national anthem to be sung - but to some people it's important.
It's not a yay or nay question is it but the simplified way in which it is presented as such really is the problem.
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Which anthem should Nicola Sturgeon sing?
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.
Give us a national anthem that's about the nation and not about an unelected head of state and their imaginary friend and I'll respect it.
Ok, I get it now. You're one of "those". Fair enough; say no more.
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By the way, while I'm here, (yeah, I know, I'm chirping on a bit) I think Corbyn should go out and hug a panda to improve his public image. He'll be electable then.
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Worked for David Cameron when he hugged a husky.
Whatever happened to the greenest government ever promises?
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.
Give us a national anthem that's about the nation and not about an unelected head of state and their imaginary friend and I'll respect it.
Ok, I get it now. You're one of "those". Fair enough; say no more.
By 'one of "those"' I presume you mean 'people who stick by their principles in the hope of promoting change'.
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Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
Hear hear Glyn. I haven't stood up, or sung, the National Anthem in decades. My stance is based on slightly different grounds to yours, but they are using the same 'freedom' that JC is being denied by the agenda ridden press lords. God I hate the press so much.....
if anyone's interested, my refusal to sing and stand is because I think nationalism is one of the two biggest curses that has ever befallen this world. I will not do anything to support it. Internationalism, humanism, are my creeds.
BobG
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.
Give us a national anthem that's about the nation and not about an unelected head of state and their imaginary friend and I'll respect it.
Ok, I get it now. You're one of "those". Fair enough; say no more.
By 'one of "those"' I presume you mean 'people who stick by their principles in the hope of promoting change'.
No, I don't.
With all due respect, I'm acknowledging the futility of further debate.
I could talk about good manners, common decency, and respecting others and their beliefs, but to what end?
If you want to protest the national anthem because the lyrics don't match your political and religious views, who am I to say otherwise?
Maybe one day you'll find yourself in a stadium next to a group of ex-serviceman, as I did a few weeks ago, and as you see them struggling to their feet for the nation anthem due to their artificial limbs, hands on hearts and singing at the top of their lungs, perhaps you'll feel as ashamed of yourself for your act of protest, as I was honoured to stand silently beside them.
If you don't get it, I've no hope of explaining it to you.
You go on fighting the good fight.
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SUrely Orlando, the very fact that those servicemen were there without all those various limbs makes the point? Nationalism, and hence any national anthem, is a curse that nobody should support. Ever.
Cheers
BobG
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Orlando.
Do you accept that one can have the deepest, most humble respect for people who have made that sacrifice whilst still having different principles of one's own about how the country should be run?
Or, to put it another way, don't you think that part of the problem is the attitude that, unless you show that you are on one side by confirming to expectations set by that side, you are automatically against that side?
Or, simpler still, who decided what was to be intended by the singing of a national anthem?
Back on topic, I think Corbyn's behaviour was immature and ill-thought out. But my God, isn't it about time that we were grown up enough as a society to be able to have a discussion like this based in the premise that there are principles and honour on BOTH sides?
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At todays Battle of Britain service from Westminster Abbey,it was on telly, Prince Charles hardly sang it.
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At todays Battle of Britain service from Westminster Abbey,it was on telly, Prince Charles hardly sang it.
I'll bet that doesn't get several dozen column inches in the papers.
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Why don't we just get a new anthem...one that makes sense in this day and age.
The present anthem dates from the 1750's. It is full of crap that perhaps once was relevant..but no longer is.
It is not just us though. Read the lyrics of most anthems and be embarrassed.
Time to move on.
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Ahh Albie. But this national anthem is just perfect for the tory party and the manipulative tory press to play the nationalism card whenever it suits them without ever having to bother with trivial details like thinking. Or even logic.
You're dead right Albie. But it won't happen in decades.
BobG
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.
Give us a national anthem that's about the nation and not about an unelected head of state and their imaginary friend and I'll respect it.
Ok, I get it now. You're one of "those". Fair enough; say no more.
By 'one of "those"' I presume you mean 'people who stick by their principles in the hope of promoting change'.
No, I don't.
With all due respect, I'm acknowledging the futility of further debate.
I could talk about good manners, common decency, and respecting others and their beliefs, but to what end?
If you want to protest the national anthem because the lyrics don't match your political and religious views, who am I to say otherwise?
Maybe one day you'll find yourself in a stadium next to a group of ex-serviceman, as I did a few weeks ago, and as you see them struggling to their feet for the nation anthem due to their artificial limbs, hands on hearts and singing at the top of their lungs, perhaps you'll feel as ashamed of yourself for your act of protest, as I was honoured to stand silently beside them.
If you don't get it, I've no hope of explaining it to you.
You go on fighting the good fight.
What about the ones who weren't there and singing?
What about the chap who came up with these quotes, would you tell him to sing up or shut up with his silly pacifist statements?
Remembrance Day (it's) just showbusiness
(the) politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder
It’s important that we remember the war dead on both sides of the line – the Germans suffered the same as we did
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Amusing take on the "anthemgate"fandango from Scottish comedian Frankie Boyle;
Jeremy Corbyn couldn’t be more British if he bled tea | Frankie Boyle | Comment is free | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/21/jeremy-corbyn-non-conformist-british-frankie-boyle)
I know Frankie is not everyone's cup of tea, but I like the fact he is not afraid of upsetting the applecart every now and then.
The press are now on the wrong foot, with "Call me Dave" in the pigsty with his pork scratching past.
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Many years ago, whilst I was a student at that socialist hotbed, Warwick University. I was invited to a May Ball at Christ College, Cambridge. It was a damn good do. An all nighter with the piper playing in the rising of the sun at stupid o'clock in the morning. But before all the dancing and mingling and student type stuff, me and the girl I went with had to attend a dinner with the chap who had invited us. There was a fair number of other unknown Cambridge student types in attendance. Some sort of 'club' or, as us Yorkies prefer to call it, a gang.
What a bunch of toe rags they were..... I can still visualise, in glorious technicolour, exactly the type of hooray henry that Cameron possibly seems to have been. Toasts. Loud voices. Banging of the table. Arrogance. Ignorance. Power. Power. Power.....
The worlds that you and I inhabit are utterly irrelevant. if you're not born with the right spoon in your gob and the right numbers in your bank account, you will have to be one of lifes luckiest to get the sort of power those kids already had.
I was utterly appalled that night. I have never, to this day, forgotten it.
BobG
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To be a countries leader you must be strong, but also willing to compromise, i wouldn't want him to change the person he is, but not singing the national anthem is wrong, if doesn't believe in monarchy, he can respect his country and people who the song and flag represents.
I believe he won't be the disaster that many paint, if he is prepared to engage in serious politics, and serve the everyday people and not just the elite.
Everything isn't about London, it's a great city, but we have many throughout the land, as well as towns and villages with their own identities
The politics are too much about what's good for the capital, the people who live in other areas need to at least think they matter a bit.
The country needs to think it's just that a country, rather two seperate pieces, our country together is greater than being ''North and South''!.
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SUrely Orlando, the very fact that those servicemen were there without all those various limbs makes the point? Nationalism, and hence any national anthem, is a curse that nobody should support. Ever.
Cheers
BobG
I like the concept of a world free of nationalism, but I find it as impractical, unlikely, and fanciful a notion as pacifism.
My attitude towards nationalism is similar to that toward guns; if they didn't exist we'd all be better for it. However, that's not the world we live in, and in that world they are necessary.
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Orlando.
Do you accept that one can have the deepest, most humble respect for people who have made that sacrifice whilst still having different principles of one's own about how the country should be run?
Or, to put it another way, don't you think that part of the problem is the attitude that, unless you show that you are on one side by confirming to expectations set by that side, you are automatically against that side?
Or, simpler still, who decided what was to be intended by the singing of a national anthem?
Back on topic, I think Corbyn's behaviour was immature and ill-thought out. But my God, isn't it about time that we were grown up enough as a society to be able to have a discussion like this based in the premise that there are principles and honour on BOTH sides?
Yes, absolutely. But to unnecessarily (and publicly) show disdain for something that has a deep, emotional meaning to others is both vulgar and disrespectful. Is a brief public demonstration of unity, pride, and love for one's country the appropriate time to demonstrate your differing principles? What are people hoping for, that those around them will politely inquire as to their motivation for their protest, and then a healthy political debate will ensue on the terraces? It's just not the time, nor place.
I'm not sure it is part of the problem. Unless those expectations of conformity are unreasonable, where's the harm? If custom dictates that you stand during a national anthem to show respect, refusing to do so is obviously going to be interpreted negatively. Refusing to shake somebody's hand when offered is much the same; it will be perceived as a slight. Complying with the accepted conventions of a society so as not to offend, wherever you are, is merely good manners.
I remove my hat and stand during the US national anthem out of respect. Likewise, I bow my head during prayers at weddings and funerals, regardless of the faith. Surely, it's just common decency? It doesn't diminish my principles to do so.
Society has dictated what the meaning of the national anthem is/has become. As a member of that society, you can follow social convention, or fly in the face of it. If you choose to behave in a manner that you know is contrary, you accept the consequences.
To be fair, it's a pet peeve of mine at the moment, what with vulgar war protesters disrupting soldier's funerals, and county clerks refusing to issue gay marriage licences on the grounds of 'religious freedom.' Oh the irony.
I have a huge amount of respect for other people's opinions and beliefs, but I simply can't stand having them petulantly thrust in my face by attention-seeking people, whom demand respect for their opinions and feelings, yet display little for those of others.
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The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.
He's a republican, why would he sing it?
Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.
When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.
Give us a national anthem that's about the nation and not about an unelected head of state and their imaginary friend and I'll respect it.
Ok, I get it now. You're one of "those". Fair enough; say no more.
By 'one of "those"' I presume you mean 'people who stick by their principles in the hope of promoting change'.
No, I don't.
With all due respect, I'm acknowledging the futility of further debate.
I could talk about good manners, common decency, and respecting others and their beliefs, but to what end?
If you want to protest the national anthem because the lyrics don't match your political and religious views, who am I to say otherwise?
Maybe one day you'll find yourself in a stadium next to a group of ex-serviceman, as I did a few weeks ago, and as you see them struggling to their feet for the nation anthem due to their artificial limbs, hands on hearts and singing at the top of their lungs, perhaps you'll feel as ashamed of yourself for your act of protest, as I was honoured to stand silently beside them.
If you don't get it, I've no hope of explaining it to you.
You go on fighting the good fight.
What about the ones who weren't there and singing?
What about the chap who came up with these quotes, would you tell him to sing up or shut up with his silly pacifist statements?
Remembrance Day (it's) just showbusiness
(the) politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder
It’s important that we remember the war dead on both sides of the line – the Germans suffered the same as we did
I have the deepest respect for them, and their families have my sympathies.
No I wouldn't; I would reserve any comment for an appropriate occasion, or politely keep it to myself. It seems that few people these days are capable of formulating an opinion without sharing it. Patch is entitled to his opinions, and I respect that.
In fact, it was my understanding that the point of Remembrance Day was indeed to remember the dead on all sides. Am I mistaken?
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Orlando
Would you bare your head to show respect for, say, the North Korean national anthem? Or that of Mao's China? Or Hitler's Germany?
This isn't academic point-scoring by the way. There's a principle to be established.
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Orlando
Would you bare your head to show respect for, say, the North Korean national anthem? Or that of Mao's China? Or Hitler's Germany?
This isn't academic point-scoring by the way. There's a principle to be established.
No, I wouldn't.
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Right. So you are prepared to make a political stand against nationalism, notwithstanding the fact that this may cause offence to those who have a different take?
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Yes but you didnt keep your opinion to yourself Orlando, it's up there at the top of the page. Harry Patch developed his opinon from first hand experience and is therefore just as relevant as that used in your post. He appears to have a similar view of the pageantry now associated with Rememberance Day to Jeremy Corbyn, it's their opinion on war, or the futility of it, and commemorative services associated with conflict.
You are as well placed as me to answer your own question, how is Rememberance Day remembered in the US, do the Americans rember only US soldiers - or do services also remember their enemies too?
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Withdrawn, M'lud.
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That's unfair Orlando surely?
If you are discussing a principle, and I thought that was what this thread had become, then extreme examples ARE the very essence of testing the principle. You, by your statements have led to the conclusion that either:
a) you are unprincipled, or
b) don't know a principle when it bites you on the bum, or
c) have lost the argument so conclusively that you have just resorted to what I think you have previously abhorred - you are now playing the man. Not the ball.
Shame on you :)
BobG
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Godwin's law is fun. :)
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No. Orlando, YOU made the point that it is bad form to show disrespect to others' feelings of support for their concept of their nation. All I did was to take that attitude to its logical conclusion. I chose obvious examples. But what about Pinochet's Chile? Or Botha's South Africa? Or Tito's Yugoslavia? Or Lee's Singapore? Or, bang up to date, Orban's Hungary?
You wouldn't show respect for Mao's China. Or Kim's North Korea. Or Hitler's Germany. But others would have done, and would have been disgusted by your lack of deference. You would clearly see yourself as being in the right on those cases. But what about the others I suggest? There's a line somewhere. And it is different for everyone.
So, we've established the principle that an unquestioning public display respect for what a nation represents is not an absolute requirement. It's a personal choice.
Now, if someone chooses not to display that unquestioning support, you have two choices. 1) Dismiss them as being deliberately objectionable. 2) Enquire what it is that they object to. If you choose the first, you can't logically object if someone else makes the same judgement of you. All you can do is to claim that YOUR judgement is better than theirs. And then we're out of the realm of logic and into the realm of beliefs.
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Yes but you didnt keep your opinion to yourself Orlando, it's up there at the top of the page. Harry Patch developed his opinon from first hand experience and is therefore just as relevant as that used in your post. He appears to have a similar view of the pageantry now associated with Rememberance Day to Jeremy Corbyn, it's their opinion on war, or the futility of it, and commemorative services associated with conflict.
You are as well placed as me to answer your own question, how is Rememberance Day remembered in the US, do the Americans rember only US soldiers - or do services also remember their enemies too?
I don't think war is futile; it's the tragic result of the failure of reason to overcome human nature. But futile? Not so sure about that.
You asked me if I would tell him to 'sing up or shut up', to which I replied that I certainly wouldn't. Don't confuse my sense of propriety and reluctance to argue with the deeply held beliefs of a 111 year old WWI veteran, whose 1st hand experiences have formulated his views, with an unwillingness to share my own values in an appropriate setting. If a forum is not an appropriate place to share it, where is?
Regarding Remembrance Day, it had frankly never crossed my mind that anyone only remembered their own.
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You're right Bob, that was a little unfair. I've reread the post, and the light-hearted tone I had intended was far from clear. Apologies BST.
I'm still trying to comprehend how I went from not wanting to engage in a clearly futile debate, to justifying why I wouldn't doff my cap to Hitler. It always gets around to Hitler in the end. :)
Bob, are you suggesting I'm unprincipled because my professed respect and tolerance for others and their beliefs falls short of including Hitler and his final solution? I'm not playing the man. I don't do that. I just honestly didn't make the leap, and still fail to see how somebody making a show of snubbing the national anthem, for example, possibly relates to my theoretical refusal to heil Hitler. In fact, it's my principles that would prevent me from showing deference to such people and what they stand for. I'm genuinely puzzled.
BST, yes, I'd be unwilling to rise for the nazi anthem, but I'm not sure I'd call it a political stand against nationalism. I have a history with them, and in their case, I wouldn't worry about causing offence amongst such vile, hate-filled people.
Although it may not come across in a forum, I don't like to offend anybody if I can help it, and I generally show a great deal of respect to people and their beliefs unless their actions dictate otherwise.
Of course people are free to make their own choices, and yes, that goes both ways. I accept that the line for many is a blurred, perhaps ever changing one, and that personal beliefs and convictions are the key determining factors. I'm not sure exactly to what extent logic plays into nationalism, excepting perhaps for the inherent logic that (unfortunately) dictates the necessity of it.
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Regarding Remembrance Day, it had frankly never crossed my mind that anyone only remembered their own.
Then perhaps you ought to research the white poppy that Jeremy Corbyn wears and why it exists.
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Regarding Remembrance Day, it had frankly never crossed my mind that anyone only remembered their own.
Then perhaps you ought to research the white poppy that Jeremy Corbyn wears and why it exists.
Or the dilema that the relatives of the 200000 or so Irish Catholics/men from the now Republic of Ireland who served in the British Army face on Rememberance Day- that day of course not being commemorated in the Republic as it is not in the USA (it's Veteran's Day in the US and the Irish remember their own on 11th July for anyone who wishes to correct me).
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Orlando: Top man Sir!
That is the most honest post I've seen on here in years. Loud applause from me :)
BobG
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Orlando. It was late yesterday and I was tired and it was daft of me to do the Godwin's Law thing. M
BUT, the list of other examples I have kind of makes the point. Personally, I wouldn't show respect for Orban's Hungary, or Pinochet's Chile, or Botha's SA. I probably would for Tito's Yugoslavia and Lee's Singapore, despite their many worrying aspects.
Because it is a choice. Just like your response to the daft example that I gave previously. I would hope that you wouldn't consider me to be a deliberate trouble causer for not honoring what Hungary is becoming. Because my decision would be a matter of principle. I have red lines, where my core beliefs transcend a need to do what is societally expected of you. Just like the ones that you have clearly shown yourself to have.
So, why assume that someone who chooses not to pay homage to the British or Anerican anthem is just being an attention-grabbing trouble-causer? Maybe they have their reasons?
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Just watched Corbyn's conference speech, Wow! Hit all the right buttons, he gets my vote without a doubt!
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Haven't really seen it, so it will be interesting to see what he has said. The devil will be in the details. First impressions are he is trying to do things a way, but can he and is it just style over substance? I don't care how politics are done, I care what they do for me and our country.
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BFYP
If you care about your country, then you'll have loved McDonnell's speech yesterday. Finally, we've got someone talking about logical textbook economics, instead of the voodoo bullshit that has led us and Europe to the edge of a deflationary spiral.
Good news, eh?
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PS
It shows how utterly dysfunctional the public debate on economics is though.
Peston, yesterday, said McDonnell was introducing unorthodox economic ideas that went against the consensus.
In actual fact, McDonnell's approach is standard textbook macroeconomics. It is the piss and wind of "expansionary austerity" that is utterly unorthodox economics, has no theoretical or empirical foundation and has been demonstrated by outcomes to be utter nonsense. Yet it is still trotted out by politicians whose careers are invested in it.