Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: IDM on November 04, 2015, 01:41:45 pm
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After another batting failure vs Pakistan, who thinks that Ian Bell's test career is over?
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Ian Bell is a victim of Englands persistence with Moen Ali as an opening batsman, never has been and never will be an opener in Test Cricket, Bell effectivley opens after Ali loses his wicket very early
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I fear it could be, but I hope not. I don't see any players who are better equipped to deal with South Africa.
Don't forget that two years ago Alistair Cook looked washed up. Now he is back to something near his best.
Like Filo, I don't think it helps having an opener who isn't up to the job. In any case, Bell's best position is 4 or 5. But in any case, we have no-one better to bat at 3 than Bell.
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That's absolutely spot on John. Get rid of Bell - and just who do you bring in? Not a great place to take a new youngster even if we have one who might be up to the job....
BobG
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This morning's events suggest that the problems go deeper than Ian Bell.
Something I've noticed is how many players selected for England have doubtful batting techniques. I'm not picking on Yorkshire, but Lyth, Ballance and Bairstow have scored lorry loads of runs in domestic cricket. Yet they look exposed against international bowlers. The exception is, of course, Joe Root. But somehow the domestic game isn't producing Test batsmen - or spin bowlers either.
I really don't see another Bell or Cook out there to take over from them in a year or two's time.
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One of the main reason we aren't producing batsmen is that the counties are now looking to all rounders or bit part players to player in the limited overs stuff ,mainly 20twenty because that's were the money is . 20twenty is not a new thing it's just mid week evening cricket re branded.
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Very true, and the current England side is stuffed full of all-rounders. Cook, Bell and Root are really the only specialist batsmen, so if one of them is out of form, we struggle.
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Alex has been part of the Gloucestershire county age group squads from time to time. In the end I got so irritated and upset by what they were demanding of him, that we jointly decided to jump ship. He's now attempting to convince Wiltshire to take him on.
The Gloucestershire coaches aren't very interested in batting technique. They want kids who can stay there long enough to bash 40 or 50 quick runs. Any children who build their innings are dropped from the squad. There's one lad, nice enough kid, plays for Dumbleton, who opened the batting for Gloucs Under 14's last summer. He can hit the ball. But he's a shite batsman. His technique is truly terrible. Yet they keep him in the side because, somehow, so far, he has stayed in long enough to make enough medium size scores, quickly enough, to satisfy the coaches. He won't last though. And it ain't me saying that. I know 3 international batsmen and they have all 3 said the same. So why do the county coaches persist with players like that???? Because they focus on limited overs cricket and they want quick runs....
Same with bowling. Forget encouraging wicket taking. Oh no. It's all about economy. Bottling up an end. I can see that in limited overs cricket that is the name of the game for a bowler. But taking that attitude into kids bowling will certainly destroy any hope of ever finding children who could be test match bowlers. And the crying shame is, I can think of 3 or 4 14 and 15 year olds right now, just around here, who could one day amount to something if they had the right opportunities and the right coaching. But they won't get them. Gloucestershire don't want them. They "give too many runs away". Forget the fact that they just took 4 for 31 in their 7 overs and had a catch dropped as well......
Like everything else almost, cricket is quickly losing its technique now.
BobG
PS The standard of childrens' county cricket in Wiltshire is so dire that I can't even bring myself to discuss it.
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I feel a bit sorry for Bell. He's a victim of his own talent and fluency. He can look like the best batsman the world has ever seen, seeing it like a beach ball, but then perish to a poor shot choice. It became apparent to me several years ago that this would never change, but still the press talked about him as though he could still become the world's best.
Take him for what he is - a brilliant technician with mental flaws who has scored 7-8,000 test runs at an average comfortably above 40 but who is probably now on a downward trajectory. He still has to stay in the team - for now at least - if only for his experience. I wouldn't be averse, though, to bringing two openers into the squad (one to replace Mo and one to come in at 3) and moving him back to 5. However England probably want to give Taylor a run so I suspect Bell will stay at 3.
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On a seperate matter Pietersen scored a rapid century the other day. I don't really like his attitude but no doubt he's a world class batsmen. And could more than easily deal with the South African threat. Can't see a way back into the side for him now though. Probably for the best.
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He won't get back in under any circumstance at all while Strauss is in charge. Strauss is never going to forgive him for those texts to the South Africans is he? Which is, of course, the complete opposite of Vaughan. If Vaughan had got the top job when he and Strauss were both in the running for it, Petersen would have been back in the England squad within 20 seconds. Vaughan thinks he needs senisble management. He also thinks he's not had much of that from most of the england capatains he had to play under.
BobG
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Damn glad Petersen won't get back in, he's 35, it would be a backwards step to bring the "ego" back. Two hundreds in T20 is not a recommendation, by the way, for test cricket.
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Pretty much the point of my rant at Post No 7 :)
BobG
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Well, they have dropped him for the SA tour. Frankly I think it is a poor decision. You're going to have Hales, Ballance or Compton and Taylor in the top five, none of whom are proven. We have to hope Cook and Root stay fit and in form.
I could understand Bell being left out if he didn't perform in the first couple of Tests, but to leave him out of the tour completely seems mad to me.
Still, I'm looking forward to watching him tear county attacks apart at Edgbaston next season!
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I agree John. But hang back on the Gary Ballance doubting :) He's coaching Alex at the moment and I'm spending a number of Sunday evenings nattering with him.
Bob
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Can't really see Ballance being picked, I think he's more there a back up. I expect to see a top 5 of Hales-Cook-Compton-Root-Taylor.
I agree with you, though, TRB - seems a very strange choice to leave him out of the tour completely. Don't think there'll be any road back for him now either.
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I agree John. But hang back on the Gary Ballance doubting :) He's coaching Alex at the moment and I'm spending a number of Sunday evenings nattering with him.
Bob
That's interesting Bob. Maybe you could ask him if he's evolved a plan for dealing with the South African quicks. If it's the same one he had last summer then he won't get far.
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Can't really see Ballance being picked, I think he's more there a back up. I expect to see a top 5 of Hales-Cook-Compton-Root-Taylor.
I agree with you, though, TRB - seems a very strange choice to leave him out of the tour completely. Don't think there'll be any road back for him now either.
If a couple of the newbies do the business then it will be very hard for Bell to get back, but apart from Taylor, I don't have a lot of faith. Hales' technique looks loose to me. Ballance was all at sea against the NZ swing bowlers and then got finished off by the Aussie quicks. Compton is a very patient batsman who can occupy the crease but doesn't have the range of shots to make big scores in Tests. I do like Taylor though- he's a battler and will stand up to the SA quicks.
I'm not sure we've seen the last of Bell in an England shirt, unless the management has decided enough is enough. In that case, as they did with Ramprakash, they'll ignore anything he does in county cricket. But if that is the case they ought to have told him so and allowed him to announce his retirement from tests.
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Just as an aside...Buttler today was absolutely immense. That was one of the best knocks i've ever seen
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Just as an aside...Buttler today was absolutely immense. That was one of the best knocks i've ever seen
Fantastic knock, 100 in 46 balls! It was a match winning innings without a doubt, but you have to give Pakistan some credit, they had a right go of chasing the 355
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John
As Gary Ballance is from Zimbabwe (and was back there only a fortnight ago) he grew up facing South African quick bowlers. He knows them all. They may get him, but he's played against them all for years.
Did you see that Smithy has started the war of words with him already? He's calling him some really dreadful names. Why would he waste his time doing that if he thought Ballance was going to be a pushover? It must be quite bizarre to be on the receiving end of that actually. They've known each other for years.
Bob
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What has Smith been saying about him, Bob?
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I saw that Graeme Smith had said that the SA pace bowlers would be licking their lips when they heard Ballance was in the team. It depends I suppose whether he's looked at his technique. He seemed all at sea last season having looked good the year before.
Test match bowlers work out new batsmen very quickly. It is those who can adapt who survive.
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Balance started his international career unbelievably well. He has talent.
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Balance started his international career unbelievably well. He has talent.
There's no doubt about that, Gaz, but he's also got a big technical flaw that will be exposed unless he's addressed it.
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Let's not forget that Ballance has had a few months off to practice his technique. He could have sorted out his problem by now.
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I don't know what he's done about it. It'd be bloody presumptuous of me to even ask! I might ask a guy called Ryan Higgins though. He's big mates with Gary - Gary's brother, Bruce, works for him. Ryan played for Zimbabwe so he knows what's what. There's a reight network of Zimbabwean and South African cricketers round here. You can hardly move without tripping over another one. Neil Ferreira lived in the next village 'til he went off to Australia. An ex Zimbabwe Under 21 captain is just up the road. Alex played alongside another ex international in Cheltenham but I can't remember his name!
Bob
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Is that the Higgins who has been/is on Middlesex's books? Seem to remember seeing him play in a couple of T20s games, I'm sure his name was Ryan. Didn't realise he an international though, I thought he was a kid.
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I dodn't know Nick. I suspect it must be a different Ryan Higgins. The one I know is abaout 28 or 29 now. Of Yorkshire stock but born and bred in Zimbabwe. Quite chunky build. A leg spinner and a batsman. He has a younger brother, Dillon, who captained the Zimbabwe Under 21's.
My one bowled out Brian Lara with a leg spinner in an international once. I don't think he's played for a county side. He came over here about 6 or 7 years ago and has spent the time building up a bloody good business and playing for fun. He's a good mate, a bloody good coach, has an enormous number of contacts and Alex loves him to pieces. It's him who showed us the door to getting Alex invited to an MCC trial in a couple of weeks time. Might be a problem with that now though: Alex got concussed playing rugby this morning. Always was a stupid game.
BobG
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Ah no, must be a different guy - the one I saw was 20 or 21 and a batsman only.
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Bob
If Alex wants to make it at cricket he should give rugby away. Something like hockey is a better winter activity for a cricketer. Or take up a racket sport like badminton or squash.
Too much risk of injury playing rugby or football, and they don't really enhance the skills you need for cricket.
I've never been a fan of field hockey but it is really good for the wrists, something that is vital for young batsmen nowadays. Ditto squash and badminton - good for wrists and general hand-eye co-ordination. Hockey is also good if you want to stay involved in a team sport in the winter.
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He hasn't got any choice sadly John. It's school: rugby in the autumn term, hockey after Christmas and cricket in the summer. That's what they do and that's what he as to do.
He sounds quite miserable at the moment. He's been holed up in the school medical centre not allowed out. The wifi in there is poor so he can't even prat about on silly games. I'm not too bothered by that - it's good for the soul, but I am bothered about the fact that school and the doc are saying no sport at all for 3 weeks. He's got a trial for an MCC course and summer placement in 2 weeks time. And he needs to be in the nets a couple of times before then for that as well....
Always did think rugby is a stupid game. It cost me a tooth. It might cost Alex an awful lot more.
Bob
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I didn't think schools operated like that any longer. I thought they usually offered some choice of games, even if the choice was rather restricted.
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I'm surprised that they do. My school (left 10 years ago) was fairly old school but you for two terms you still got the choice between rugby and hockey, or if you didn't want to do either, football (no competitive side however). If you were any good at football you'd be pushed to join the rugby squad but there was still a choice.
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Sadly, the place Alex is at offers no choice at all. It's rugby, hockey and then cricket. And that's your lot. Mind you, they have an awful lot of England, county and district players in all three - some of whom are on the books of big clubs. In aAex's class, and cricket team, the other opening bowler plays for England. She is a girl. She's a bloody good bowler too.
Bob