Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: roversdude on November 13, 2015, 10:57:05 pm
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WTF is going on bstards
Thoughts with the people over there
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State of Emergency in France, all borders closed
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Some people are really not right in their head.
Hope they catch whoever did this and can end this once and for all
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The ease with which these nutters can get hold of automatic weapons must surely be a concern.
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Why is France the main target in Europe?
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The ease with which these nutters can get hold of automatic weapons must surely be a concern.
Ultimately it should not be a surprise given the middle eastern conflicts and all.
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This is utterly horrendous.
I have the feeling that tonight is going to be one of the most bloody nights in recent history regarding terrorist activity.
What are we going to do about this?
It makes my blood boil.
We have enemies in our midst and we have to take more direct action to deal with them.
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Easy way to stop them getting guns stop making them for anyone but the army , navy and police
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You have to say thank F**k we're an island and seemingly have less of a problem with rifles. You can attempt to fight back against people with knives but a nutter with an automatic rifle (or grenade) in a confined space (like a concert venue) is a different prospect altogether.
The frightening thing is that the French Government has said these people are highly organised - yet there is seemingly no pattern to their targets, not political or anything, just purely to cause terror. Terrorism in its purest form.
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Awful scenes in Paris.
It beggars belief.
How can people do this, how can they justify this?
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Was thinking about taking the wife to paris next year with the flights from donny but now having 2nd thoughts.
Cant imagine how people are feeling who are there now
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You have to say thank F**k we're an island and seemingly have less of a problem with rifles. You can attempt to fight back against people with knives but a nutter with an automatic rifle (or grenade) in a confined space (like a concert venue) is a different prospect altogether.
The frightening thing is that the French Government has said these people are highly organised - yet there is seemingly no pattern to their targets, not political or anything, just purely to cause terror. Terrorism in its purest form.
No Copps, that argument is flawed I'm afraid.
What about the 7/7 attacks?
It's not about knives instead of rifles.
These people will blow themselves up in order to murder innocent people.
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Why is it flawed?
Reducing their ability to indiscriminately kill large amounts of people by reducing the weaponry they have available is flawed?
One look at American gun violence statistics vs. every other civilised country in the world will tell you it isn't.
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Because rifles are the least of our worries!
These nutters have bombs Copps, they don't need rifles!
If they had stormed the London Underground in 2007 with rifles they could have killed a lot of people, but nowhere near as many as were killed by the back-pack bombs.
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Lowest of the low cowardly brain washed to$$ers
It can and will happen here again
Our country has been infiltrated
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Neil, in fairness I never said it was either or. We should obviously work to reduce all types of weapons. But it seems much easier to tackle automatic (and other) guns in comparison to homemade bombs for example.
Unfortunately, Anders Brevick and the Charlie Hebdo attacks (and now this) do tell us that rifles are very much part of the problem and we should worry about them to a very large degree.
And I don't believe for a minute that terrorism is going away if we get rid of rifles btw.
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There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.
I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.
These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.
It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?
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What it needs is the countries of the world, including the likes of Russia, to come together and launch a co ordinated effort to wipe these nutters off the face of the world, put political differences adide and sort this out
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Filo radical but I agree
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2 gunmen down go get rest
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Why is it flawed?
Reducing their ability to indiscriminately kill large amounts of people by reducing the weaponry they have available is flawed?
One look at American gun violence statistics vs. every other civilised country in the world will tell you it isn't.
Copps, there is a huge problem in the US with guns. Their Gun Laws are ludicrous and they defy any definition of a civilised society.
But with regard to the atrocities in Paris tonight, this is a red herring.
That is my point.
France's gun laws are not like those of the US. Paris has not been targeted tonight because of its lax gun laws.
It has been targeted because it is a free, democratic, inclusive European democracy which is therefore a sitting target foe Islamist nutters who want to destroy our way of life.
These are not individual nutters who storm schools as sometimes happens in the US. This is a targeted, planned, co-ordinated attack on Western democracy.
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To quote Stephen Fry "Religion? I've shit it!!"
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To quote Stephen Fry "Religion? I've shit it!!"
Great point......if I understood it
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Religion in all it's forms is b*llocks, too many people are killed in the name of religion!
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Filo radical but I agree
Theres nothing radical about uniting against a common foe, despite political differences, it's happened a couple of times in the last century
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I think what will unfold tonight is one of the bloodiest, most horrific incidents since 7/7.
We have to think of a more proactive way to combat this threat to our way of life.
It is just intolerable.
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100 killed at concert hall alone. Heartbreaking.
Seen a report on Twitter Putin is ready to work with US to tackle Isis.
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Filo totally agree - there will be people trying to justify this
How they can beats me
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Different countries are letting immigrants stream through borders to live in their countries, is it too simple minded to think it's all organised to get more terrorists in?.
I feel for genuine people who fear for their lives, but would they help us in our hour of need?.
The countries are too thick to see what is happening. Organise a war in a country and mingle in with the refugees, that must be possible as to what they are upto, i'm sorry but our borders should be closed to everybody, the government has to look after it's own countries security.
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Suicide bomber at France v Germany football
What a set of cowardly t**ts
I hope there's a few that failed to detonate that can be "questioned"
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Rest in peace to all the victims, ourselves and countries surrounding need to act fast and put all this terrorism at rest. New York is on red alert now along with London.
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100 killed at concert hall alone. Heartbreaking.
Seen a report on Twitter Putin is ready to work with US to tackle Isis.
It really is terrible. It won't and shouldn't stop people doing what they love though. I'll still be going to big gigs and events, we can't let them win.
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Why is it flawed?
Reducing their ability to indiscriminately kill large amounts of people by reducing the weaponry they have available is flawed?
One look at American gun violence statistics vs. every other civilised country in the world will tell you it isn't.
Somebody's obviously never watched Bowling For Columbine..!
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There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.
I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.
These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.
It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?
Oh, not this b*llocks again!!
Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?
Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?
No? The bas**rds, their religion obviously approves.
See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?
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100 killed at concert hall alone. Heartbreaking.
Seen a report on Twitter Putin is ready to work with US to tackle Isis.
It really is terrible. It won't and shouldn't stop people doing what they love though. I'll still be going to big gigs and events, we can't let them win.
We heard the news last night driving home from a gig.
The sad fact is it really could be any one of us. I'm convinced it's the UK's turn very soon for these animals to attack.
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With all the immigrants coming into Europe willy nilly there will be more of the nutters amongst us then we could possibly imagine.
As has been said before, it is always going to be difficult to control who comes and goes.
Even if the border controls were better there will always be a way of smuggling people into our country.
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France is awash with Kalashnikovs compared to England,unfortunately we have a now large Muslim minority with a small number of them radicalised, get ready for some concerted effort to do harm to folks on the streets of our cities and towns.
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The West is always reactive in situations like this instead of being pro active, we can all start by banning the wearing of the burkha in public, I know the cowards in Paris were probably not wearing burkha's but the point I'm trying to raise is those people may well have been known to the security services, whats the easyest way for them to move around a crowded City undetected? A Burkha with only a letterbox to look through! If those that wear the burkha don't agree then that Country is probably not the place to be to practice their medievil rules!
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We let them go through customs at the airports without looking at their faces too.
Totally wrong.
Men dressed as women could easily get through.
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Gatwick evacuated
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Putin has spoken
"I would like to express my deepest condolences to you personally and all the people of France in connection with the death of a large number of civilians as a result of an unprecedented series of terrorist attacks in Paris," Mr Putin wrote.
"This tragedy became another evidence of barbaric nature of terrorism which poses a challenge to human civilization. It is obvious that effective fight against this evil requires a real combined effort of the entire international community.
"I would like to confirm that the Russian side is ready for the closest possible cooperation with French partners in the investigation of this crime committed in Paris. I expect that its paymasters and perpetrators will be punished."
Time for Obama and Putin to lead the world in wiping these nutters out, forget the East v West posturing and work together!
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In 1967 the Israelis fought off an attack by the combined forces of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. They had the sympathy of pretty well the entire world at the time. Within a few short years they had lost that sympathy, except in the USA, as a result of their treatment of the Arabs over whom they now had control. In the 48 years since 1967 the Israelis have fought wars, have kidnapped leaders, have shot indiscriminately into crowds, have refused to negotiate, have built walls, have murdered western journalists, have smashed tunnels, have launched naval raids, have assassinated tneir own politicians whenever they looked like they wanted to reach an accomodation with the Arabs, have suffered several intifadas - and have become international pariahs.
Yet the Israelis still talk about taking 'stronger measures'. They still dream up ever more bizarre and self defeating ideas with which to 'beat' the Arabs.
Yesterday I heard David Cameron, speaking on the box about the murder of Jihadi John. Within the space of 30 seconds he said:
"We have struck at the heart of IS", and, "He was their top executioner"
Given the fatuous stupidity of a man who could say those two things almost in the same breath with a straight face, is he really expecting us to believe both at the same time? So what are the odds do you think that we, and the rest of the western world, are about to follow the pattern adopted by the Israelis?
I remind you of two other pertinent points: how long did the Irish 'problem' go on for? How was peace eventually achieved? And, how has South Africa tried to overcome the bitterness, the violence and the viciousness created by apartheid?
These sodding politicians (and I am not aiming this at the Tory party. UK politicians of all parties generally seem to be as myopic as each other) must believe we are all plain stupid. Why else would they spout unthinking crap like this? The result of all this platitudinous rubbish is clearly stated by Neil Grainger:
"It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us. How long will we continue to tolerate this?"
That may, or may not, be true. But it is an example of the one thing that we should all fear above everything else - the creation of a climate of xenophobia. That is simply another step down the Israeli road. How is falling out with a large minority of our population going to do anything except cause more bitterness, more violence, more intolerance? How is it going to solve even one of our problems? What are you going to do with the millions of these 'foreigners'? Put 'em in camps? Export them to somewhere - but where? Shoot them? And just who is actually a 'foreigner' anyway? What do you do with children born in this country? What do you do with Australians? Columbians? Jordanians? Omanians? (And I picked Jordan and Oman specifically as they are seriously pro west allies of the UK. Oh. And they happen to be Arabs too. They encapsulate the issue beautifully)
Where are our leaders? Men of vision? I can't, off hand, think of a single lasting peace that has been created without there being long, detailed and meaningful conversation with the other side. And don't say the Allies and Germany in 1945. 1945 was a cessation of war. It was not the creation of peace. Peace came through the establishment of the Marshall Plan and everything about communication and forgiveness that that implied. Peace came to Ireland because Tony Blair had the guts to sit down with the IRA to thrash things out. He had the brains too to look forwards, not backwards. To let go of the past. The previous 40 odd years, when no one else had any guts, or realism, saw a never ending cycle of bombings, shootings, massacres by the army, murders by all sides, checkpoints, spying, barbed wire and restrictions on movement. But not peace... Peace needs communication. It does not, ever, happen without it. Violent solutions don't last. The eastern bloc tried that in Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1967. There were some very sticky endings for some of the leaders of that lot in the end. Think of Clemenceau in 1919 too and his famous line about squeezing the Germans like an orange until the pips squeaked. The result? The creation of the framework for a cataclysm 21 years later. Without decent, meaningful communication, without understanding and a spirit of tolerance, peace has never lasted. Even if we nuke the middle east our problems won't be solved.
Where is the latter day equivalent of the Marshall Plan for the middle east? When is somebody going to sit down and talk to these people? Don't forget who it was that created them too. We already know we can't beat them militarily. We already know we can't prevent them causing mayhem on our streets, murdering hundreds and hundreds of people. Remember Madrid? that was what?? 7 years ago? So have we been pissing about since then? Bombay? London? New York? Nairobi? Charlie Ebdo? Remember France has been on high alert ever since Charlie.... yet last night still happened.
Claiming to be fighting a war to win in these circumstances is just pathetic. It's unwinnable. It's what the Yanks claimed they were doing in Vietnam. This is that sort of war. A guerilla war. The Russians lost, heavily, in their Afghanistan guerilla war a few years back too. We didn't win there either depsite 10 years or more, billions and billions of quid, massive American support and all the hyperbolic claims from our politicians you could ever wish for. We should be ashamed of our politicians. They are supposed to lead. They should be talking honestly about causes, consequences and solutions. They have spent 10 years and more now talking hyperbole and garbage instead. The whole world needs leadership so badly now that it's scary. And we should be ashamed of ourselves for listening to this rubbish and letting them speak it.
'Enemies amongst us'. Christ Almighty. It's Salem in the 1690's all over again. I'm going to call it 'Right think'.
This looks like the start of 'Festung Europa' to me.
BobG
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Bob G, you make some valid points but I object to your illogical references to Israel. Israel is the only democracy in the ME. Their neighbour are avowed to their complete annihilation. Their people are constantly and daily subjected to exactly this very type of terrorism and this has been the case for years. There have not been similar multiple casualties as in Paris because their security is more sophisticated and proactive, more citizens and security personnel are properly armed and these atrocities are nipped in the bud. The population of Israel are constantly terrorised with daily stabbings, car rammings not to forget the tunnelling and rocket and mortar attacks by their neighbours. Neighbours who will not accept any peace deal that does not include the elimination of the State of Israel.
This cancer is being spread now through the whole civilised world by radicals spreading their hatred of humanity via the internet.
All human life is sacred but israel's experience may show the rest of us what to expect in the future.
Peace brother!
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And just why, do you think, the neighbours of the Israelis want to annihilate them?
And, just for fun, who caused all this in the first place anyway? I'll tell you: it was Arthur Balfour. Yep. Him. British politican who couldn't keep his trap shut and who couldn't see consequences if they smacked him in the eye.
Remind me just what happened to the only Israeli national politican who ever tried to secure peace with his Arab neighbours. I don't think the Old Testament 'eye for an eye' approach has got much of a track record has it - despite it being used more often than mnot for at least a thousand years. It's consequences don't bear thinking about do they?
I keep on telling people, Henry Ford was plain wrong. If you don't know your history, you're doomed to making the same mistakes again and again and again. That's something the Israelis really could do with spotting.....
BobG
PS Actually, I've got a mate, who, a good few years back now, told me at a time of personal crisis that "If something isn't working, doing more of the same won't solve the problem". Those 13 words are so profound, so full of insight, so full of meaning and good advice that they should be engraved on the heart of every politician on the planet. Especially Israeli ones!
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Bob
I agree that simply training more firepower on IS won't work. And in many ways they are a creation of western meddling in the middle east, especially in Iraq and Syria.
However, the situation with IS is subtly different from those you describe in Vietnam, Afghanistan etc. Those invasions ultimately failed because they had little or no support from the locals. In parts of Syria or Iraq controlled by IS, the locals hate and fear them in equal measure. IS are the ones conducting brutal repression. Also, unlike the IRA, they have no desire to talk to anyone or moderate their demands.
What is needed is a coalition to take on and defeat Is. That means involving the Russians and, crucially, other Arab states. That is what our leaders should be proposing, and it will involve putting troops on the ground.
But I agree with your other substantive point. Treating Muslims as some kind of "enemy within" plays into the hands of IS and other extremists.
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But 'defeating significant 'terrorist' groups' doesn't happen often John! I agree about the lack of support from the locals, but are you honestly trying to tell me that the Iraqis, the Syrians would support yet another western occupation force? Because that's what will be needed if the west decides it really does want to go after ISIS. It would end up exactly the same as Vietnam, Afghanistan and all the rest.
As for the IRA - they did come to the table. Took a long time, but the UK government was equally reluctant you know. When they both did, guess what? Peace suddenly broke out.
And, lastly, and very sadly, I simply don't believe we can ever 'defeat' terrorism - no matter how big the coalition you throw against it. That was the point about Vietnam. A big coalition. A terrifyingly powerful force assembled. So what did the Vietcong do? Disappear. Hide in the bushes and the villages. Wait for the guns to move away. Then come out of hiding and start all over again. Pick off the guards. Trip wires to mines. Booby traps. Terrorise the locals. Poison the wells. In a guerilla war you can't stop any of that John - no matter how big and how massively expensive the force you put together.
And that was my point about the succession of attacks over a fair number of years now. The whole world is on high alert - yet last night still happened even so. We can't stop them. We can only stop them some of the time. So, rather than do more of something that is not and will never work, why not do something different? Because if we don't, we are going to end up creating a world that is so massively different that none of us can even begin to imagine what it will be like. All we can say is that it will be chock full of Right Think...
One last example of avoiding Right Think: why has the 40 year war against the terrorist Sendero Luminoso recently stopped in Peru? Why did it last so long?
Why can't people see the patterns?
BobG
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I wonder if any of the murderers last night had taken advantage of our humanitarian efforts for the refugees flooding Europe without any meaningful Border Controls. Were they all residents in France for sometime or hidden as part of this flood?
Perhaps the Governments refusal to take refugees in vast numbers is helping to protect us, however I do appreciate we already have "the enemy within" that have been radicalised over a number of years and are willing to sacrifice their lives for religion. It's nothing new though is it, it's been going for centuries in the name of one god or another.
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I'm sorry Bob but your stance on this is incorrect,the Islamic Caliphate is a few thousand nutters who ave managed to manipulate their sittuation by playing on the religious splits in Northern Iraq and Syria.
The majority of their fighters would kack their pants at the first sight of some serious Infantry and off would come the beards and on would go the Burquas.
The State of Israel came into existence after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire it would have happened no matter what western power controlled Palestine.
Once the Ottomans were out Jewish migration into Palestine started in earnest.
The region is a complete mess. I do see a Kurdish state coming out of the mess and that will have repercussions across Turkey,Syria,Iraq and Iran.
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You can't bomb an ideology.
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Well well well!
BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking · 9 mins9 minutes ago
One of the bombers in #ParisAttacks passed through island of Leros as migrant in October, Greek minister says http://bbc.in/1O8KHxx
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Well well well!
BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking · 9 mins9 minutes ago
One of the bombers in #ParisAttacks passed through island of Leros as migrant in October, Greek minister says http://bbc.in/1O8KHxx
It's what many have been predicting
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And so it came to pass!
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And so it came to pass!
Time for the do gooders to get their heads out of their arse's
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And so it came to pass!
God this was so bound to happen...What a mess. Wonder how many we've let into this country.
Time for the do gooders to get their heads out of their arse's
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Merkel and the EU will have to radically rethink their immigration plans now.
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And so it came to pass!
Time for the do gooders to get their heads out of their arse's
Mad Mick was right all along then Filo, send in the gunboats?
800000 migrants have arrived in Europe this year, there were 8 terrorists. You are looking at the wrong scapegoats, both the problem and the solution are in the Middle East. If we stopped IS in Syria then there woundn;t be any refugees or terrorist training centres. But it needs to be a UN solution, not an EU one.
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Merkel and the EU will have to radically rethink their immigration plans now.
The germans are also upset about Merkel policy to invite arab immigrants into their country. I stayed 2 months in Hamburg and every Sunday, the germans organized protests against this situation. I asked some of them what is all about, and they told me they wanted to be asked if they agree to have arab immigrants in Germany. Merkel decided this without asking them, so they are very upset about this. Germans didn't want to have these immigrants in their country, they wanted to close their borders for them.
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Sorry Bobg, I respect an awful lot of what you say but I disagree with your stance on this.
I posted on here last night at the height of the news emerging from Paris and perhaps my words could have been chosen more carefully.
But we DO have an enemy within and anybody who tries to deny that is deluding themselves.
Glyn Wigley, I completely disagree with you and I fail to understand your point. Are you suggesting that every "C of E" murderer ( if that's what you meant) claims that they acted in the name of God?
I must be missing something.
The I.S. nutters in Paris murdered innocent people in the name of their religion. The clue is in their name.....
The rapists in Keighley chose a young white girl as their target. They would never have chosen a young Asian girl.
Like I said, there is an elephant in the room.
There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.
I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.
These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.
It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?
Oh, not this b*llocks again!!
Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?
Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?
No? The b*****ds, their religion obviously approves.
See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?
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There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.
I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.
These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.
It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?
Oh, not this b*llocks again!!
Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?
Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?
No? The b*****ds, their religion obviously approves.
See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?
It's your argument that's crap Glyn!
When did you last hear of a group of "C of E'rs" walking into a theatre and gunning down 90 people in the name of God?
And justifying their murders in God's name?
Shame on you.
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The point, Neil, is that encouraging xenophobia will not solve anything. Have you never heard the saying that 'hard cases make bad law'? Well, that's exactly what you are suggesting we do. The only way to create peace is to talk to the other side; to work out a means by which both sides can live without rubbing each other up the wrong way too much. What will your position achieve??
Filo: take your head out of your arse for a minute. Think about Northern Ireland, about South Africa; about Peru; about Israel. There's hundreds and hundreds of examples. Sticking the boot in to get your own back achieves the square root of eff all. You end up like the Israelis. Living in an armed camp for decade after decade after decade. As we all know very well, we can't stop these people by force or by intelligence gathering, so why not try something a bit different? Try being brave. Try talking to them. Try working out a solution. It might not work. But it's a devil of a sight more constructive than waving your fists in the air making threats you can't deliver like we've been doing this last 10-15 years.
BobG
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You don't negotiate with terrorists, when you negotiate you are showing fear!.
The biggest mistake was when our government got involved in Iraq and Afghanistan. It wasn't our business, our country needs to concentrate on it's own country and people, and stop trying to interfere in things that don't concern us.
As it is the damage has already been done, now it's damage limitation, whether it's eight terrorists or one in hundreds of thousands it's too many. The borders need to be totally closed and except nobody through them as migrants.
There needs to be a bigger crackdown on people here illegally, any prisoners deported, any with a criminal record deported, any that have been allowed into this country in the time since the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, should also be looked into to see if they are a danger.
This is not racism, this is practical thinking and looking after the people who were born here. The right to be here should be done on an Australian style points system, if you don't have the skills needed you don't get in.
I am not convinced half of the medical qualifications supposedly attained abroad, are anything more than Lucky bag qualifications. Many will be highly skilled people but i believe there are many practising as doctors, nurses etc, who shouldn't be.
The case other week of a doctor being struck off because he couldn't communicate in english, what use is he in that case. And how many mistakes are being made because of the language barrier?.
Our governments have brought our country into this situation, they stuck their heads into the 'Middle east hornets nest', and wonder why they have been stung.
We are having to recruit from abroad because doctors born here, are being worked into the ground. GPs are having massive pressure put on them to hit targets the government expects, doctors are retiring early because the job isn't what it was.
Surgery after surgery is jam packed full with the extra people who have come in. People can't get an appointment, and when they eventually see the doctor, it may be somebody who struggles with how the patient speaks and vice versa.
The government needs to stop pumping foreign aid all over the shop, and put the money into strengthening our country. Treat it's own medical staff well enough so they will keep practising.
Only take in people who can further our country with their skills, no migrants to be let in at all, and most of all our people need to be vigilant, not fearful, do your thing.
Our Great land has faced many challenges through the centuries, and one thing nobody says about us, is that we are cowards.
Our people are a warrior race that never gives in. The government doesn't really have a decision to make, your country, your people come first.
My respect goes to the French people killed, and all those injured, these sort of things shouldn't happen. Both governments need to work together to put together a plan that safeguards both countries citizens from now on as far as they can.
Terrorism i would think is one of the hardest types of wars to prevent, they don't stand in front of you gun against gun, they attack unarmed people, and pick off people who don't expect it.
This type of 'Guerilla' warfare has been practised in the middle east going right back to the crusades, they would pick off the stragglers in any group of soldiers, chipping away at the numbers they had.
I wish the world was different, but it hasn't really changed since the beginning of time in some ways, but what has changed are the weapons that end up in the hands of humans can do even more damage at a quicker rate.
Religion for me should never start any war, every religion promotes peace and trying to become a better person, the only difference in the gods are the names, they are basically one and the same.
Yet again it is innocent people going about everyday life who are hurt or killed, just as they were in the middle east, and now in France, and every other war you can mention. I said many years ago, it was a war that couldn't be won, as somebody said ''It's a Guerilla war'', like Vietnam. All you get are casualties mounting up on both sides and no conclusion, only more death.
My thoughts go out to all who were killed, families who have lost family members, and injured people and their families, this could happen anywhere in the world. ''Hatred is the worst human emotion, once you hate then all is lost''.
The government need to Start making decisions that strengthen our country not weaken it. When you see Ex servicemen and women, or anybody on the street, and they are giving away millions, that tells you a country isn't right.
This country needs to go back to what it was before and can be again, Great Britain!.
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In 1967 the Israelis fought off an attack by the combined forces of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan. They had the sympathy of pretty well the entire world at the time. Within a few short years they had lost that sympathy, except in the USA, as a result of their treatment of the Arabs over whom they now had control. In the 48 years since 1967 the Israelis have fought wars, have kidnapped leaders, have shot indiscriminately into crowds, have refused to negotiate, have built walls, have murdered western journalists, have smashed tunnels, have launched naval raids, have assassinated tneir own politicians whenever they looked like they wanted to reach an accomodation with the Arabs, have suffered several intifadas - and have become international pariahs.
Yet the Israelis still talk about taking 'stronger measures'. They still dream up ever more bizarre and self defeating ideas with which to 'beat' the Arabs.
Yesterday I heard David Cameron, speaking on the box about the murder of Jihadi John. Within the space of 30 seconds he said:
"We have struck at the heart of IS", and, "He was their top executioner"
Given the fatuous stupidity of a man who could say those two things almost in the same breath with a straight face, is he really expecting us to believe both at the same time? So what are the odds do you think that we, and the rest of the western world, are about to follow the pattern adopted by the Israelis?
I remind you of two other pertinent points: how long did the Irish 'problem' go on for? How was peace eventually achieved? And, how has South Africa tried to overcome the bitterness, the violence and the viciousness created by apartheid?
These sodding politicians (and I am not aiming this at the Tory party. UK politicians of all parties generally seem to be as myopic as each other) must believe we are all plain stupid. Why else would they spout unthinking crap like this? The result of all this platitudinous rubbish is clearly stated by Neil Grainger:
"It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us. How long will we continue to tolerate this?"
That may, or may not, be true. But it is an example of the one thing that we should all fear above everything else - the creation of a climate of xenophobia. That is simply another step down the Israeli road. How is falling out with a large minority of our population going to do anything except cause more bitterness, more violence, more intolerance? How is it going to solve even one of our problems? What are you going to do with the millions of these 'foreigners'? Put 'em in camps? Export them to somewhere - but where? Shoot them? And just who is actually a 'foreigner' anyway? What do you do with children born in this country? What do you do with Australians? Columbians? Jordanians? Omanians? (And I picked Jordan and Oman specifically as they are seriously pro west allies of the UK. Oh. And they happen to be Arabs too. They encapsulate the issue beautifully)
Where are our leaders? Men of vision? I can't, off hand, think of a single lasting peace that has been created without there being long, detailed and meaningful conversation with the other side. And don't say the Allies and Germany in 1945. 1945 was a cessation of war. It was not the creation of peace. Peace came through the establishment of the Marshall Plan and everything about communication and forgiveness that that implied. Peace came to Ireland because Tony Blair had the guts to sit down with the IRA to thrash things out. He had the brains too to look forwards, not backwards. To let go of the past. The previous 40 odd years, when no one else had any guts, or realism, saw a never ending cycle of bombings, shootings, massacres by the army, murders by all sides, checkpoints, spying, barbed wire and restrictions on movement. But not peace... Peace needs communication. It does not, ever, happen without it. Violent solutions don't last. The eastern bloc tried that in Hungary in 1956, Czechoslovakia in 1967. There were some very sticky endings for some of the leaders of that lot in the end. Think of Clemenceau in 1919 too and his famous line about squeezing the Germans like an orange until the pips squeaked. The result? The creation of the framework for a cataclysm 21 years later. Without decent, meaningful communication, without understanding and a spirit of tolerance, peace has never lasted. Even if we nuke the middle east our problems won't be solved.
Where is the latter day equivalent of the Marshall Plan for the middle east? When is somebody going to sit down and talk to these people? Don't forget who it was that created them too. We already know we can't beat them militarily. We already know we can't prevent them causing mayhem on our streets, murdering hundreds and hundreds of people. Remember Madrid? that was what?? 7 years ago? So have we been pissing about since then? Bombay? London? New York? Nairobi? Charlie Ebdo? Remember France has been on high alert ever since Charlie.... yet last night still happened.
Claiming to be fighting a war to win in these circumstances is just pathetic. It's unwinnable. It's what the Yanks claimed they were doing in Vietnam. This is that sort of war. A guerilla war. The Russians lost, heavily, in their Afghanistan guerilla war a few years back too. We didn't win there either depsite 10 years or more, billions and billions of quid, massive American support and all the hyperbolic claims from our politicians you could ever wish for. We should be ashamed of our politicians. They are supposed to lead. They should be talking honestly about causes, consequences and solutions. They have spent 10 years and more now talking hyperbole and garbage instead. The whole world needs leadership so badly now that it's scary. And we should be ashamed of ourselves for listening to this rubbish and letting them speak it.
'Enemies amongst us'. Christ Almighty. It's Salem in the 1690's all over again. I'm going to call it 'Right think'.
BRILLIANT POST BOB G.
This looks like the start of 'Festung Europa' to me.
BobG
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Glyn Wigley, I completely disagree with you and I fail to understand your point. Are you suggesting that every "C of E" murderer ( if that's what you meant) claims that they acted in the name of God?
I must be missing something.
Whereabouts does it say that the rape case YOU specifically mentioned was done 'in the name of God'? You were certainly missing something there.
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There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.
I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.
These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.
It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?
Oh, not this b*llocks again!!
Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?
Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?
No? The b*****ds, their religion obviously approves.
See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?
It's your argument that's crap Glyn!
When did you last hear of a group of "C of E'rs" walking into a theatre and gunning down 90 people in the name of God?
And justifying their murders in God's name?
Shame on you.
Show me where the accused rapists said they committed the crime you're talking about was done 'in the name of God' and you might actually have a point.
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Alright chaps. Here's more food for thought:
Off the top of my head, in the 14 years since September 11th, we've witnessed at least the following:
Twin Towers
Nairobi
London
Mumbai
Russian airliner
Charle Ebdo
Madrid
Tunisian beach
Paris
That's 9 separate attacks. Not that many in 14 years you might think. But still something over 4,000 people killed. And that DESPITE the world being constantly and continuously on high alert. So, what can we conclude from this?
No matter how many plots they have prevented and how many bad guys they've nicked, the forces at the disposal of the entire West have not succeeded in keeping us safe. They have allowed a major attack to take place every 18 months or so. By definition therefore, we are not 'winning' the war. We have continued to not win it for 14 years now. Worse, in that 14 years we have succeeded in hugely multiplying the number of our enemies and we have enabled them to up skill and up arm to frightening degrees.
And today, in our wonderful free press we see:
The Sunday Express running a text poll asking 'Is immigration a terrorist risk?' and the Sunday Mail stating, in about 48 point Bodoni bold, that the terrorists involved in the attack on Friday were 'immigrants'. They base this world exclusive on the fact that a Syrian passport was found at the Stade de France. The Americans, bless their cotton socks, think the passport is forged. The Mail, bless their cotton socks, in their rush to fan the flames, forgot that one of the most noticeable things in this tide of immigration is the tens of thousands of passports stolen from those seeking to flee the mess the West has created. Can you not see the agenda of those that set the press agenda? Xenophobia is growing. And although you may not believe me now, we are noticeably closer to a point where you will wish, with all your heart and all your soul, that you had done something to oppose that growth.
So, what is the one common factor after every such attack? What is the common factor shared by every single politician, every single news organisation and 99% of individuals too? It's emotion. The worlds press and media and social networks congeal with pious and sanctimonious rubbish that does nothing at all to advance a means of dealing with the problem. After every attack we have a mass outbreak of emotion. Let's all blame the Wogs - and that IS the tone of what we continue to get in our newspapers. It's almost as if emotion has replaced policy. It has certainly replaced thinking. Time after time we get the same old discredited tripe:
they won't change how we live (oh really?);
we will pursue them to victory (like we've done for 14 years already then?);
we must strengthen our intelligence resources (like we've been doing for 14 years you mean?);
we won't put boots on the ground or endanger our armed forces (Oh. Sorry. You did just say this is a war didn't you?)
It's complete and utter drivel. Our policy has been complete and utter drivel for the last 14 years at least. If it's a war, then you have 3 choices:
1) go out to win it
2) talk to the people on the other side to find a way to co-exist
3) continue the half hearted 'appease everybody and satisfy nobody' policy we've trusted to for so long already
So which policy do you want?
If you want to win the war, then fight a bloody war! Westerners, including us English, possibly a lot of such people, will be killed though, and the outcome, even if we achieve 'victory' will risk medium and long term scary badness.
If you want peace, go ahead. Talk to the terrorists. We've done it before: we worked alright with the first 3 or 4 Israeli Prime Ministers even though every one of them had previously been vilified and imprisoned as 'terrorists' by this country. We even talked to the IRA. And guess what? We got proper peace in both cases by doing so.
If you want stalemate, go ahead just as we are. People on both sides will continue to be killed. Civilised behaviour will continue to be destroyed. Just what is the justification for state sponsored and sanctioned murder by the way? Can you remind me when it was discussed in Parliament? In Congress? No. You can't can you? Because it wasn't. We are not much better than ISIS after all are we......?
For God and Allah's sakes, stop wallowing in emotional emptiness. Think! Think what outcome you want and then think how we might be able to achieve it. It's our collective failure to think clearly that has led us to where we are now.
One last suggestion: remember all those girls who were kidnapped in Nigeria by Bhoko Haram a couple of years ago? Remember all the promises that were made to 'bring the girls home'? Remember the vast surge of emotion right around the world in their support? Well, guess what? Not one single girl has been released by the efforts of those, including the west, who sought to free them. Those girls who have returned to civilisation have done so through their own efforts. They escaped. So much for the usefulness of emotion then. And so much for yet another great victory for the massively trumpeted support and policies of the west too..... Do you think, one day, someone will notice that emotion as the basis of policy ain't actually working very well?
I never cease to be amazed how little most people see of what is in plain sight in front of their eyes.
BobG
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I agree with you in principle Bob. But I don't think for a minute that these maniacs would enter into talks.
I'm dead against troops going in again as that will just produce another long line of martyrs to be followed by more ad nauseum.
There's no answer to this.
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I agree with you in principle Bob. But I don't think for a minute that these maniacs would enter into talks.
I'm dead against troops going in again as that will just produce another long line of martyrs to be followed by more ad nauseum.
There's no answer to this.
Even if they were willing to talk to what they consider to be decadent westerners, there is currently no reason for them to do so. From their point of view they are winning. The air strikes are little more than an inconvenience and are merely slowing their progress, not stopping it.
Reluctantly I think military action is needed. But it needs to have the Russians on board and also involvement from Arab states. We (as in the US and EU) also need to accept for now that we will have to put up with Assad remaining in power while we deal with the more dangerous adversary.
I am afraid that if we don't take action soon IS will end up in control of large swathes of the Middle East and will eventually have the capability to strike regularly at Europe. And not just via terrorist attacks either. In that respect they are a more dangerous adversary than Al Qaeda, the Taliban or Saddam ever were.
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From Sky news;
french fighter jets have dropped 20 bombs on the Islamic State (IS) stronghold of Raqqa in northern Syria.
The planes hit a jihadi recruitment centre, training camp and arms depot run by the extremist group, according to the French defence ministry.
A spokesman described it as a "massive" attack and France's biggest to date in Syria.
The bombing raid was launched from air bases in United Arab Emirates and Jordan, and involved 10 of France's 12 fighter jets based there.
It follows Friday's terror attacks which left 132 people dead in the French capital.
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I agree Tommy, John. Why would IS negotiate with us? But equally, why wouldn't we try? Because one thing is for sure: doing more of what we've done this last 14 years isn't going to solve diddly squat. We have to do something differently. Anything. Just not more of the same - for all our sakes. There are only two choices: launch a proper war, or, try to do a deal. Take your pick.
Now, Sammy. Next time you put your fingers on your keypad, take a real deep breath before you actually touch any of them there keys. It gets you into trouble. Your first line above:
"You don't negotiate with terrorists, when you negotiate you are showing fear!."
fair enough. That's a position you can choose to hold if you wish. But if you make that choice, I really hope you know what you've signed up for... You have just confirmed, very clearly, that you do not approve of that nasty and unnecessary peace that the Northern Irish have suffered from since 1998. Clearly, you would prefer it if we, the British, had spent not only the 30 odd years between the outbreak of the troubles and 1998, but also the 17 years since, vainly chasing round Ireland trying to 'win' against the IRA the INLA and all the rest. Clearly, you would rather another 4 or 5 thousand people had died this last 17 years - rather than dare to sit down with a terrorist - just in case they might think we are 'weak'.
You have just confirmed, too, that you regret the state of Israel was ever born, and, that you would prefer it if we, the British, were still running around Palestine trying to catch those horrible terrorists of Irgun and the Stern Gang rather than stupidly sitting down with the terrorists who turned out to be the first 3 or 4 Prime Ministers (I forget now) of the nation state we had fought to strangle at birth. At least the Arabs might agree with you I suppose.
And you have confirmed too that you would prefer the last 2-3 years discussions between the Shining Path and the government of Peru to have never taken place either. That's ok Sammy. They're only Peruvians and Indians. I guess they don't count as real people, do they, when they get blown up or shot? What about the Spanish government Sammy? Are they 'weak' too? Because, after 30 years of failure, they have been talking to ETA you know. And guess what? ETA and the Spanish have negotiated a proper peace and both sides have agreed to lay down their arms. Bloody shameful that don't you think?
Come on Sammy. That one sentence is, I think, the most ill informed, the most ridiculous and the most foolish parroting of press shite I have ever seen on this board. Stop meddling in things you clearly know nothing about. That one sentence has utterly destroyed the credibility of absolutely everything else you say on the subject.
BobG
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I agree Tommy, John. Why would IS negotiate with us? But equally, why wouldn't we try? Because one thing is for sure: doing more of what we've done this last 14 years isn't going to solve diddly squat. We have to do something differently. Anything. Just not more of the same - for all our sakes. There are only two choices: launch a proper war, or, try to do a deal. Take your pick.
Now, Sammy. Next time you put your fingers on your keypad, take a real deep breath before you actually touch any of them there keys. It gets you into trouble. Your first line above:
"You don't negotiate with terrorists, when you negotiate you are showing fear!."
fair enough. That's a position you can choose to hold if you wish. But if you make that choice, I really hope you know what you've signed up for... You have just confirmed, very clearly, that you do not approve of that nasty and unnecessary peace that the Northern Irish have suffered since 1998. Clearly, you would prefer it if we, the British, had spent not only the 30 odd years between the outbreak of the troubles and 1998, but also the 17 years since, vainly chasing round Ireland trying to 'win' against the IRA the INLA and all the rest. Clearly, you would rather another 4 or 5 thousand people had died this last 17 years - rather than dare to sit down with a terrorist - just in case they might think we are 'weak'.
You have just confirmed, too, that you regret the state of Israel was ever born, and, that you would prefer it if we, the British, were still running around Palestine trying to catch those horrible terrorists of Irgun and the Stern Gang rather than stupidly sitting down with terrorists who turned out to be the first 3 or 4 Prime Ministers (I forget now) of the nation state we fought to prevent - and lost. At least the Arabs might agree with you I suppose.
And you have confirmed too that you would prefer the last 2-3 years discussions between the Shining Path and the government of Peru to have never taken place either. That's ok Sammy. They're only Peruvians and Indians. I guess they don't count as real people, do they, when they get blown up or shot?
Come on Sammy. That one sentence is, I think, the most ill informed, the most ridiculous and the most foolish parroting of press shite I have ever seen on this board. Stop meddling in things you clearly know nothing about. That one sentence has utterly destroyed the credibility of absolutely everything else you say on the subject.
BobG
Bob are you a middle east expert?, Do you get none of your opinions from newspapers, the internet etc?.
We were always taught in History, to read over all the evidence and to weigh up both side's of the story, and usually the blame or any one side's evidence is not completely the truth, it's parts of both stories.
In Northern Ireland yet again our country interfered, and again brought trouble to the doors of the whole nation. The way the Irish people were treated led to a lot of the hatred, innocent people many of them just like our people who were killed or injured.
I cannot really have a good understanding as i wasn't there, and didn't go through what our people went through with the threat of bombs, or what the irish people went through with our occupation.
I always think somebody who thinks they know everything, actually know very little, that's why i never pretend to, i am always learning.
What i have written are my opinions, and i don't believe our government are blameless. I am sorry i would'nt negotiate with terrorists, our authorities have put this country into these positions interfering, and in my opinion not to help other countries, but for greed purposes.
The 'Shining path' discussions i have never heard of, and your view on what i think of foreign people is offensive.
'' People mean the same whichever country they come from and whatever colour they are''!.
I mention innocent people being killed or injured in my post of european origin and middle east being wrong, it isn't a one sided, right and wrong argument.
''I would have preferred our country not to go occupying other countries in the first place''!.
The Iraq war was fought on lies, as was the Afghanistan occupation, and this unrest has been caused by ourselves and others linking up with the US for other purposes than helping the countries.
'' There were financial gains to be made in my opinion, and they all took a cut''!.
And the one's who had to deal with the situation were our soldiers, who did do good while out there despite our governments intentions.
I must resist having an opinion when you are about, your whole post is the lengthiest post of condesending drivel that i have ever read.
Are you the 'Shah of Iran', or am i talking to a yorkshireman who doesn't think himself better than anybody else?
Because the way you have talked down to me is beneath contempt.
This is why people are not posting on here as much, the constant nit picking, miserable comments, it's an 'Old boys society', and any newcomer is treated with suspicion.
The other group may not be perfect, but there seems a friendliness that is sadly missing on here.
''I don't mind debating my posts, but when you assume i don't value an Indian life as much as an English one just from one post, then you are having an opinion without all the facts just like i am''!.
What these comments do, they put off people having an opinion, you work away and work away with snide comments, until the forum becomes empty happy clapping rubbish.
It doesn't bother me what you think of me, i am just slightly disappointed in you.
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If you publish your opinions on the internet, you must expect a reply, especially on such a hot topic. Writing "this is my opinion" doesn't exclude you from having your opinions ripped apart if someone thinks they are rubbish. If you disagree with Bob or anyone else obviously you can say so, but that doesn't mean you're exempt from a reply. If you don't want to run the risk of having someone disagree with you, don't say it.
This line here for example "I always think somebody who thinks they know everything, actually know very little" is a load of rubbish.
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Bob
I agree that the present approach isn't working with IS. Air strikes are slowing the down, but their opposition on the ground isn't strong enough to resist them.
In order for the option of opening talks with them, at least one side needs to be prepared to offer something. What could we offer them? The whole of Syria, perhaps? Large parts of Iraq? That would betray the people who live in those areas and regard IS as oppressors, and with good reason. And those concessions would not be enough to make them go away. In fact they would proclaim them as victory and move on to their next target.
No, we need to build a broad coalition against them and then take them on and defeat them militarily. Unlike, say, the IRA and the Taliban, I think they have little support amongst the local population, who would probably view the coalition as liberators - especially if we have genuinely learned from some of mistakes we made in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'm under no illusions that any action we might take will end Islamist terrorism, but unless we tackle the military and strategic threat IS poses that threat will get much, much worse.
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You're right John. Of course you are. The answer probably will involve a real war. But wouldn't you try to talk about peace first? what odds would you give on a real war ending up with a positive outcome? I'm struggling to think of even one war of the kind that that would be that ended well from the western point of view..... I can think of a lot that didn't end well though.
Sammy: you know Brian Cox? He's a Professor. Appears on tv quite a lot. Let me quote him to you:
"The problem with today's world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored or even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense"
There are a few people on this forum who know what I have done for a living Sammy, and, where I have been employed. It is a helpful background shall we say. But what I really have is an ability to link publicly known actions and events - events that are widely separated in time and space - to make a coherent, logical and accurate argument to inform current debate. It was on display on here during the contretemps about the alleged Belizean proposal. Not everyone has that skill. You don't. So don't be in such a rush to give what is nothing more than an ill informed opinion. Throughout this thread I have given you a huge number of facts. I have drawn some conclusions from those facts. You may choose to disagree with them as they are just my own personal conclusions. But they are based on a solid grounding of fact. What are your conclusions based on Sammy? I follow Professor Cox.
Oh. Yes. For you, above anyone, anyone at all, to comment on the length of a post is about the funniest thing I've read this year. Yes. These are long posts. That's because it is a complex and difficult subject. But you don't have to read them Sammy if their length is tiring your eyes or your brain can't cope. If you care to check my posts on other subjects you will see that length depends upon subject and complexity. Your verbosity on the other hand....
And finally, today's update:
If I've heard David Cameron once, I must have heard him 30 times today saying, clearly, loudly and repeatedly, that "we must act together to... (fight this menace)". "We must come together to... (beat this menace"). "We must act together...." Repeat ad nauseam.
Is that the best he can offer?!
There are only 3 possible interpretations of all these statements today. Either:
1) Our governments over the last 14 years have been monumentally crass in not "acting together" despite bellowing after every single atrocity that we would work closer and closer with our partners around the world.
2) He has news that he either cannot or does not wish to tell us - in which case he has fallen back on a familiar and well used platitude hoping that nobody will notice.
3) He is suffering from the Whitehall lust for secrecy for secrecy's state.
In all three cases, what he has said betrays his absolute contempt for the intelligence and wisdom of his electorate. For goodness sake, a blind man can see the crassness of this repeated banging on about 'working together'! It has been said, painfully often, after every single previous major terrorist attack.
Oh. And did you spot that in Beirut last week another suicide bomber blew himself up on behalf of IS? Thirty seven more dead to add to the list of the failures of our policies.
Bob
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No, we need to build a broad coalition against them and then take them on and defeat them militarily. Unlike, say, the IRA and the Taliban, I think they have little support amongst the local population, who would probably view the coalition as liberators - especially if we have genuinely learned from some of mistakes we made in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I'm under no illusions that any action we might take will end Islamist terrorism, but unless we tackle the military and strategic threat IS poses that threat will get much, much worse.
Some good points there (IMHO) TRB.
The Northern Irish troubles arose largely because of real discrimination against Catholics in the 1950's and 1960's and IMHO was able to erupt and be sustained as long as it did because the republican terrorists had broad support amongst their less radical populace (also similarly for loyalist terrorists). IMHO, one of the reasons that the peace process has been so successful is the recognition by all sides that this broad support allowing terrorists to hide had eroded significantly (IMHO the revulsion against the Omagh bomb attack contributed to that). Also one initial source of resentment (and oxygen for recruitment) - the discrimination - has been removed. Of course political aspirations for a united Ireland still exist but the protagonists now seem committed to peaceful and political means.
Unfortunately I see no such opportunity with IS, and you are right - what could anyone offer them?
IMHO, I feel the west failed miserably in Iraq to build/support a post-conflict structure (Marshall Plan equivalent if you like) and despite greater awareness of such a requirement, has fared only slightly better in the even tougher theatre of Afghanistan. This would not fill anyone in e.g. Syria with optimism as to what might happen after a conflict or ceasefire.
Normally one would say there are two main ways of ending a conflict - total victory by one side and submission by the other (IMHO not achievable in this case with such a splintered and diverse enemy, not to mention splintered and diverse western powers) or real negotiation where somehow both sides can see some compromise and some benefit.
In the absence (near term at least) of hope in these two possibilities we are likely to be thrown into some sort of piecemeal approach, hoping for damage limitation. I just hope we try and open some channels of communication, even if only in secret. Apart from brave and strong leadership, IMHO, I feel there are crucial parts to be played by
1) populaces of western nations by refraining from random and wrongly directed revenge attacks (which would make everything much worse and be a recruiting gift for IS), and by embracing true peace loving muslims
2) the non-fanatic muslim world (the vast majority of muslims) by denouncing the terrorist attacks
I worry about my grandchildren's world
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Lots of interesting subjects and opinons to pick up on here, and I would be writting a huge essay if I even attempted to give a full reply to half of them, so just a couple of my thoughts on some of the topic areas.
'We don't negotiate with terrorists'
Of course we do, all the time. Not all terrorists on all occassions, but there are plenty of examples. If we had refused to deal with the Minutemen for example, we would still be fighting the American Revolutionary Army.
Our country did not interfere in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland IS part of our country. Thousands of men from both sides of what is now the border, fought and died for Britian in both World Wars. Until 1921 the whole of Ireland was 'part of our country'. Whether each of these areas should or should not be 'part of our country' is what that dispute is about.
The interesting question as regards Northern Ireland is not why the Government entered peace talks with the terrorists, but why the terrorists entered peace talks with the Government? What made the IRA stop fighting, they didn't get what they wanted? There is a long and complicated answer on which several books have been written, but the short answer is everybody got tired of it.
That's why it is pointless talking to IS. Firstly what do you talk to them about? Seceeding part of the Syrian desert to them? In whose power is that, certainly not the UK or even US governments. Secondly they are winning. Not territorially but across the world. Their aim is to stir up a revolution and create as much chaos in as many countries as possible and bring in as many recruits to their twisted way of thinking as possible. Unless there is a concerted effort across the globe, particuarly the middle east and Africa, then why would they come to the table? Terrorists only enter discussion when they have what they want/or realise they can't get it, and IS are certainly in neither of those positions.
Unilateral western action is pointless, all it ever ends up with is an army of occupation, a vacuum of power and a target for local terrorist action. We need to put some serious political pressure of Saudi & Jordan and get them involved, and bite the bullet with Iran & Syria and get them involved.
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"This is why people are not posting on here as much, the constant nit picking, miserable comments, it's an 'Old boys society', and any newcomer is treated with suspicion."
Sammy, that is the most hackneyed, weak kneed veil behind which to hide, almost the exclusive preserve of those who come onto this forum with an agenda to peddle or those unable to handle reaction to a half baked opinion.
You are a valued contributor to this forum, it would be a duller place without you but you really did ask for it with that 'lengthy' contribution.
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Bob
It strikes me that Cameron's rhetoric is aimed at MPs, some on his side but mainly Labour and Lib Dems, whom he wants to support him over military action in Syria. He is brutally aware when he talks to Hollande about stand behind France that he can't commit to strikes against IS. That explains his rather tortured rhetoric.
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TRB
It may actually be a bit more immediate than that. I had forgotten that France rejoined NATO a few years back. Which means that if Hollande decides to implement Article 5, Britian will be compelled to attack Syria whether MP's like it or not - or risk being expelled from NATO for breaking the Treaty.
Now that would certainly explain some tortured rhetoric.
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TRB
It may actually be a bit more immediate than that. I had forgotten that France rejoined NATO a few years back. Which means that if Hollande decides to implement Article 5, Britian will be compelled to attack Syria whether MP's like it or not - or risk being expelled from NATO for breaking the Treaty.
Now that would certainly explain some tortured rhetoric.
Just a detail Wilts - France never left NATO - it dropped out of the integrated military structure of NATO (i.e. SHAPE) in 1966 - but it remained a full political member of NATO. The Lemnitzer–Ailleret Agreements laid out how French forces would return to NATO command in case of crisis. France rejoined the full military structure in 2009, but was fully involved in many initiatives, not least most operations and exercises, in the intervening years. I believe France could have invoked Article V at any stage.
Also UK expulsion from NATO is IMHO highly unlikely. First the UK would have a veto on any operation, but if used that would of course send terrible signals. On the other hand if the UK voted for a NATO operation and subsequently declined to send any forces to join it, whilst being highly embarrassing, I can't see that resulting in expulsion. However the UK's standing and influence in NATO would be very heavily damaged.
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So does anyone think we will see some terrorist activity in London Tomorrow night?
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You're right John. Of course you are. The answer probably will involve a real war. But wouldn't you try to talk about peace first? what odds would you give on a real war ending up with a positive outcome? I'm struggling to think of even one war of the kind that that would be that ended well from the western point of view..... I can think of a lot that didn't end well though.
Sammy: you know Brian Cox? He's a Professor. Appears on tv quite a lot. Let me quote him to you:
"The problem with today's world is that everyone believes they have the right to express their opinion AND have others listen to it.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored or even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense"
There are a few people on this forum who know what I have done for a living Sammy, and, where I have been employed. It is a helpful background shall we say. But what I really have is an ability to link publicly known actions and events - events that are widely separated in time and space - to make a coherent, logical and accurate argument to inform current debate. It was on display on here during the contretemps about the alleged Belizean proposal. Not everyone has that skill. You don't. So don't be in such a rush to give what is nothing more than an ill informed opinion. Throughout this thread I have given you a huge number of facts. I have drawn some conclusions from those facts. You may choose to disagree with them as they are just my own personal conclusions. But they are based on a solid grounding of fact. What are your conclusions based on Sammy? I follow Professor Cox.
Oh. Yes. For you, above anyone, anyone at all, to comment on the length of a post is about the funniest thing I've read this year. Yes. These are long posts. That's because it is a complex and difficult subject. But you don't have to read them Sammy if their length is tiring your eyes or your brain can't cope. If you care to check my posts on other subjects you will see that length depends upon subject and complexity. Your verbosity on the other hand....
And finally, today's update:
If I've heard David Cameron once, I must have heard him 30 times today saying, clearly, loudly and repeatedly, that "we must act together to... (fight this menace)". "We must come together to... (beat this menace"). "We must act together...." Repeat ad nauseam.
Is that the best he can offer?!
There are only 3 possible interpretations of all these statements today. Either:
1) Our governments over the last 14 years have been monumentally crass in not "acting together" despite bellowing after every single atrocity that we would work closer and closer with our partners around the world.
2) He has news that he either cannot or does not wish to tell us - in which case he has fallen back on a familiar and well used platitude hoping that nobody will notice.
3) He is suffering from the Whitehall lust for secrecy for secrecy's state.
In all three cases, what he has said betrays his absolute contempt for the intelligence and wisdom of his electorate. For goodness sake, a blind man can see the crassness of this repeated banging on about 'working together'! It has been said, painfully often, after every single previous major terrorist attack.
Oh. And did you spot that in Beirut last week another suicide bomber blew himself up on behalf of IS? Thirty seven more dead to add to the list of the failures of our policies.
Bob
Why when you are talking to a decent bloke, who hasn't been arrogant with you, do you feel the need to put down my ability of using my brain?. Did i insult you or even say i knew more than anybody else?.
I had an opinion and expected to be challenged on my views, i don't expect people to agree with everything i put. I make mistakes but i admit them, sometimes i am a little short with people, or what i put can sound sometimes pushing humour to the limit, but i never say things to insult.
My views are based on newspapers, news on tv, internet opinions, what others think and from all that i form an opinion. And yes even with all that i don't know a quarter of what's going on in the world.
Professor Cox is a well informed man on many subjects, but i look at many other opinions and make my own mind up, it's not that i am bothered, it's about how you challenge opinions.
Pies, I don't think ''I did ask for it, with my opinions''!, It kind of backs up my opinion, that i am ''almost one of those that has an agenda''
I have been on this site for quite a few years, and have never made trouble or peddled any opinions only my own. I know none of the people on here or on the other site, i use this site only, i look at the other site and think it's entertaining, thank you for your comment on being a 'Valued contributor, i appreciate it.
This world is being ruined by hatred and greed, it should be a peaceful place, but unfortunately wars have been going on for as long as i have known. Negotiation has been used time and again in different wars. Sometimes it has worked, sometimes not, negotiation in the case of IS isn't going to work.
Our governments actions have brought us to this point, we blindly followed the US into occupying in the middle east, we tried all this way back, we didn't win, the russians did the same they also didn't win, you can't expect to occupy a country and have nobody from that country fight back.
Unfortunately a lot of people have been killed from both sides, if our country hadn't gone into this war in the first place a lot of what is happening wouldn't have happened.
This war wasn't entered into to protect our shores in my opinion, it was entered into because of greed for comodities that these countries have and we wanted to steal from them.
And now it has escalated into what could easily end up a world wide war. Our shores i don't think were in danger before occupying these countries, but now every country involved is in danger of these atrocities being meted out time and again on them.
Now our country has to heavily rely on our agents to keep ourselves safe, because of the can of worms opened by the mistake of going into a war that couldn't be won, and innocent people, our people, middle east people will be the one's hurt and those in power won't hurt at all.
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So does anyone think we will see some terrorist activity in London Tomorrow night?
I think security will be as tight as a drum.
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.....And rightly so but IS could use Wembley as a smokescreen, extra security there means less security elsewhere so they may have more opportunity to create havoc in another place.
i see that the English are being encouraged to sing the French National Anthem at the game tonight.
I don't think they should but i do think they should(and will) treat it with respect for a change instead of booing and whistling as it the norm.
If i was there i would have a problem singing it because i dont know the words, well, apart from that last bit that goes, "ooh ah, ooh ah, ooh ah, Cantona".
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Germany Stadium now evacuated and game cancelled! Unbelievable!
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Turkey fans booing the minutes silence expect no better from them need to be banned
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Turkey fans booing the minutes silence expect no better from them need to be banned
It would be a bit awkward for the Turks if France invoked article 5 of NATO
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Just ment football sorry dont understand whats nato article 5?
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Just ment football sorry dont understand whats nato article 5?
An attack on a NATO nation is considered an attack on all NATO nations and they are compelled to come to the attacked nations aid
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Think it needs to be invoked asap
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Think it needs to be invoked asap
Should have been invoked when Turkey was attacked, surely?
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Think it needs to be invoked asap
Should have been invoked when Turkey was attacked, surely?
That ould require Turkey to invoke it?
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France has activated the EU equivalent of NATO Article 5
BRUSSELS — European Union nations on Tuesday unanimously backed a French request for support with military missions in the wake of the Paris attacks, after France invoked a previously unused part of the bloc's treaties to seek help.
France, which launched new airstrikes against Islamic State militants in Syria after Friday's bloodshed, used a little-known article in the EU's Lisbon Treaty which provides for solidarity in the event one of them is attacked.
"Today France demanded the aid and assistance of the whole of Europe. And today the whole of Europe replied in unison 'yes'," Mogherini told a joint press conference with French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian.
"It is an article that has never been used before in the history of our union."
The EU's Article 42-7 is similar to NATO's Article 5, which the United States activated after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks to trigger the US-led alliance's intervention in Afghanistan.
From defencenews
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Well I personally believe that we the collective Forces of the civilised world need to take urgent and decisive action to destroy the Daesh foothold in the Levant which is funding their current activities and providing safety training and succour for their fighters, we also need to get Syria sorted to stop the refugee crisis and stabilise Northern Iraq.
We do that with a joint international task force to take back the land controlled by Daesh. There are a lot of tosspots in Daesh territory who should not be in Syria they need rounding up,into heaps and incinerating,Bosniaks,Kosovans,Chechens,Pakistani,Bangladeshi,Yemeni,Algerian, Caucasian maniacs etc.
Do it in force close all of the Bolt holes and KICK ASS,
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So does anyone think we will see some terrorist activity in London Tomorrow night?
I think security will be as tight as a drum.
I was in London on Monday and Tuesday for the New Order gig in Brixton. Security was apparent everywhere. Armed police everywhere on my journey from Kings Cross via Holborn and on to Brixton. Some guy, clearly an "under the radar" agency operative was on the little balcony on the right as you leave Brixton tube station and was scanning faces on the people climbing the stairs. He had some weird glasses on , presumably incorporating some facial recognition ability. I've seen cops with guns in London an many occasions, and they tend to have stubby P5-type machine guns. All the ones I saw had longer, more serious looking kit on them.
At the gig on Monday night security was also high. I had my ticket checked 4 times before getting into the venue. The first check was probably 100 yards from Brixton Academy. Then again whilst in the queue, then scanned whilst still outside (accompanied by a thorough patting down) and then checked again inside to make sure the I was in the right part of the venue. They clearly wanted to know who was in and in the right place.
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Rob, how long can people keep up that level of security checking at every venue in the country though?
After a while it all goes back to normal and them the terrorist strikes again.
As is being discussed on another thread, serious measures against IS have to be taken in an attempt to wipe them off the Earth.
Lots of people are saying what shouldnt be done but anyone who makes a suggestion about bombing or sending troops in is getting "shot down" (no pun) without much in the way of an alternative being put forward.
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How about starting with the wells and pipelines IS use to sell oil on the black market.
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Hound
You know the other night when I said that the first part of my answer is to retain a sense of perspective?
Your comment "After a while it all goes back to normal and them the terrorist strikes again" kind of sums up what I was talking about.
Again? We haven't had a mass casualty event in the UK in more than a decade. We've had only 4 in the whole of the Western world in the past 14 years. Maybe 4-500 deaths in total.
In that time, how many people have been killed by "normal" criminals? By car crashes? By cigs and booze?
Perspective.
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But Billy, car crashes (in the main),cigs and booze are not pre meditated murders by terrorists are they.
I go back to my point that there are not any projected options for stopping the spread of IS.
Surely you can seemy point.
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Hound
I don't see what your point is. A life is a life is a life.
I've just got back from 2 weeks working in the States. I'll give you a perfect example of the mad lack of perspective. I was talking to a couple at the hotel I was staying at. They were both emotional about the Paris attacks and were saying that they were praying for the people in Europe. They call it a "continent under attack". They were astonished that I wasn't scared to death at the thought of returning to Europe.
We got talking about gun crime in America. The guy was carrying a gun. He passionately spoke about his "right to defend himself and his family" and said that we Europeans didn't understand. He genuinely thought we we mad to have such draconian gun laws.
128 people were killed in Paris. About 400 have been killed by terrorists in the whole Westetn World since 2001. Typically, 30,000 people a year are killed by guns in the States. That'd be about 400,000 since 9/11. Or 575 since last Friday.
Perspective. It is REALLY important. Because when you don't have perspective, when you lash out emotionally without rational assessment, you make REALLY bad decisions. And you stoke up really bad scenarios for the future.
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To reinforce Billy's point: in 1976 I spent some time at Tulane University in New Orleans. It was a nice place. It's a nice town too. I enjoyed myself quite a lot. One night, in one of the bars at the university, I ended up talking to a couple of postgrad students. I was a mere undergrad of course. The subject turned, as it often did back then, to the fears and worries about the cold war, about the Soviet Union and about the potential for nuclear disaster. And then one of these, allegedly highly intelligent, beings made the immortal remark "Gee! Aren't you scared living so close to the Russians?"
I have never, ever forgotten that statement. It says so damn much. It says so damn much about perspective. It says so damn much about ignorance - mine, yours, his, ours, theirs. It says so damn much about decision making everywhere.....
Don't trust your atavistic instincts. Somebody once advised me that 'At times of stress, avoid making as many decisions as you possibly can. You won't make many good ones and you will have the rest of your life to regret making all the bad ones'.
He was dead right. I've made some bad ones over the years at times of stress.... We are all stressed right now. The politicians are rushing to be seen to be doing 'something'. It is a major mistake. What makes it even more sad is that we have had quite a lot of examples in recent years of the consequences of doing exactly that. Folk don't learn do they?
BobG
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One of the most sensible sets of comments on the topic I've yet heard. Ex CIA head talking about the balance between military action and softer aspects - taking the fertilised soil away.
07:15 onwards here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06q6t1q/newsnight-19112015
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All fine words lads but i still haven't seen you giving an opinion on what you think should be done to stop the IS terrorism trail.
Yes, i agree that a life is a life, is a life, of course i do.
However, measures have to be taken to stop IS.
Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?
Many people lost their lives in that conflict but the alternative for not fighting would have been much worse.
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Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?
With leaders that would want to drop lots of bombs on civilians?
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Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?
With leaders that would want to drop lots of bombs on civilians?
Of course the leaders don't want to drop bombs on civilians, but when fighting against an invisible enemy it is an inevitable occurrence - unless of course, you have a better idea?
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Where would we be today if the countries of Europe (and eventually the USA) hadn't stood up to be counted against Hitler?
With leaders that would want to drop lots of bombs on civilians?
Sounds to me like you think IS should have a free hand in Syria and Iraq. And no, I don't think we should target areas with large numbers of civilians, although IS have driven many of them out.
Although for me targeted air strikes are only part of the picture. Only ground troops will deal with IS fully in those areas they occupy. The question is- who is able or willing to commit those troops and what are their objectives?
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TRB, i also agree that selective bombing isn't the only solution.
Going back to the Hitler thing, the Nazi party began in a small way but grew rapidly and we all know where that led.
Thank God that our leaders in 1939 didnt pussy foot around.
I hope that the men in power this time dont leave it too late to go in to smash IS.
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TRB, i also agree that selective bombing isn't the only solution.
Going back to the Hitler thing, the Nazi party began in a small way but grew rapidly and we all know where that led.
Thank God that our leaders in 1939 didnt pussy foot around.
I hope that the men in power this time dont leave it too late to go in to smash IS.
Our leaders did pussyfoot around in 1939, Hitler was allowed to take the Balkans unopposed, Chamberlian went Berlin to appease the Germans, came back waving a bit of bog roll in the air saying peace in our time. It was only by treaty that we were forced to declare war on the invasion of Poland
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Ok, so i was a bit out with 1939 but your reply kind of emphasises what i am saying.
IS is spreading its wings faster than we dare believe and we (the world outside of IS) need to act now to prevent them doing what the Nazis did back then.
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TRB, i also agree that selective bombing isn't the only solution.
Going back to the Hitler thing, the Nazi party began in a small way but grew rapidly and we all know where that led.
Thank God that our leaders in 1939 didnt pussy foot around.
I hope that the men in power this time dont leave it too late to go in to smash IS.
Our leaders did pussyfoot around in 1939, Hitler was allowed to take the Balkans unopposed, Chamberlian went Berlin to appease the Germans, came back waving a bit of bog roll in the air saying peace in our time. It was only by treaty that we were forced to declare war on the invasion of Poland
Indeed they did, Filo, and up to the point that war broke out those like Churchill who said Hitler had to be confronted were in the minority.
I don't think that's the case with IS, but it is worth remembering that Chamberlain, Stanley Baldwin and the other "appeasers" recoiled from the horrors of WW1. Many of us are wary of intervention after the mistakes made in Iraq, Libya and Syria itself. But IS do need to be dealt with and in concert with Russia and friendly Arab states we need to work out the best ways to do it.
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What is frightening about the WW2 comparison is that Hitler was able to cause such a conflict without the advantage that IS have, that of religious fanaticism.
With the numbers of Muslims around the world and large numbers of them embedded in western societies, that surely is an infinitely more difficult problem to overcome than ever we had in WW2.
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Andrew Neil's opening remarks on his 'This Week' programme. Unashamedly populist but doubtless captures the mood of most decent folks.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0ahUKEwi388L6vZ_JAhXM1RoKHYFjDYgQtwIIOTAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fglobal%2Fvideo%2F2015%2Fnov%2F20%2Fandrew-neil-islamist-scumbags-isis-paris-video&usg=AFQjCNFfQ5pSbyxSpmCMB-DSeyv73vTOSg&bvm=bv.108194040,d.ZWU (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0ahUKEwi388L6vZ_JAhXM1RoKHYFjDYgQtwIIOTAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fglobal%2Fvideo%2F2015%2Fnov%2F20%2Fandrew-neil-islamist-scumbags-isis-paris-video&usg=AFQjCNFfQ5pSbyxSpmCMB-DSeyv73vTOSg&bvm=bv.108194040,d.ZWU)
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Andrew Neil could be my new hero.
I see Islamist Scumbags (they have claimed responsibility along with Al Queda) have killed another group of innocents in Mali today?
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I don't think any of us has an axe to grind for Islamist terrorists.
It's not a question of whether you want to remove them or not. It's a question of
a) how you do it
and
b) how you do it without generating the hatred that will produce the next generation of terrorists.
If you have no sensible answer to b) but you still want to carpet bomb and inter willy-nilly, you're not advocating a solution. You are indulging a pointless and self-defeating lust for retribution.
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I don't think any of us has an axe to grind for Islamist terrorists.
It's not a question of whether you want to remove them or not. It's a question of
a) how you do it
and
b) how you do it without generating the hatred that will produce the next generation of terrorists.
If you have no sensible answer to b) but you still want to carpet bomb and inter willy-nilly, you're not advocating a solution. You are indulging a pointless and self-defeating lust for retribution.
No BST, you talk to them don't you?
Let's find the main guys at the top of the IS chain of command and invite them to a meeting, so that we can talk about our differences and come to an agreement.
I'm sure that once we've sat around the table and sorted things out, there will be no more atrocities, beheadings, rapes or murders by IS.
Their demands are reasonable and their grievances are understandable.
And their means of seeking justice are completely justifiable.
Let's chat! These guys just want to negotiate!
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There is an elephant in the room and it needs to be seen and named and shamed.
I live in Keighley and in my local paper this week we have reports of 15 Asian men in court accused of rape of a 14-year-old white girl.
These are Muslim men, aged between 17 and 62 years old.
It is a disgrace. Where is the condemnation of this from the Imams in our local Mosques?
Their silence is deafening.
It is all part of the same problem. We have enemies amongst us.
How long will we continue to tolerate this?
Oh, not this b*llocks again!!
Does the Archbishop of Canterbury apologise for every crime by a CofEer?
Does The Pope apologise for every crime by a Catholic?
No? The b*****ds, their religion obviously approves.
See? It's a crap argument, isn't it?
It's your argument that's crap Glyn!
When did you last hear of a group of "C of E'rs" walking into a theatre and gunning down 90 people in the name of God?
And justifying their murders in God's name?
Shame on you.
Show me where the accused rapists said they committed the crime you're talking about was done 'in the name of God' and you might actually have a point.
Right Glyn, take out of the discussion the 'alleged' rapists of the young girl in Keighley and let's return to the Paris attacks.
They were carried out by IS....that stands for 'Islamic State'.
Now please justify your comments about the Archbishop of Canterbury failing to condemn every crime committed by a "C of E-R".
I'm intrigued.
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Neil
I'm not sure why I bother posting on here. You've obviously decided what you think I think, rather than actually read what I've said.
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=255026.msg587632#msg587632
"Be vigilant and strong. Take out the active terrorists when you can."
What scares the hell out of me is that intelligent people, like you, respond to a Paris incident in a way that would GUARANTEE that we'll still be dealing with this problem in 100 years time.
Earlier this year, after the Tunisia attack, I posted a (100% factual) message about how we are currently living through an age in which violent death is by historical standards, very rare. You got upset about that. You said it was totally inappropriate of me to post that message on that day.
Now, I said at the time that it honestly had not dawned on me that there was any correlation between the news that day and that post. But to be honest, if I HAD realised any correlation, I would have pushed it very hard. Because that is PRECISELY the point. We DO live in an era where violent death is very rare. There has never been a decade in the past 1000 years in which fewer people in Europe have died through violence than the decade 2005-2015.
And THAT is what I mean by bloody perspective. A knee-jerk reaction to IS is EXACTLY what they want. They want us to add more fuel to the fire and burn the whole f**king lot of us.
Me, I want us to engage our f**king brains before we dive into the cess pit.
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Neil, what has been the reaction in the Islamic world to the Paris attacks?
I will give you some help with the answer (or The Independent last week will)
Muslim leaders around the world have condemned the Paris attacks that left 127 people dead and as many as 80 people fighting for their lives in critical conditions.
Many of the denunciations came before Isis released a statement claiming responsibility for the attacks that have devastated the French capital and left many reeling.
Iran’s president Hassan Rouhani condemned the attacks, calling them a “crime against humanity” and said he would postpone his plan to visit France as part of a wider European trip this weekend.
The foreign minister for Qatar, Khaled al-Attiyah, labelled the atrocities “heinous”.
Joko Widodo, the leader of Indonesia, the world’s most populous Muslim country, said his nation “condemns the violence that took place in Paris.”
Kuwaiti Emir Sheikh Sabah al-Sabah said the “criminal acts of terrorism” run “counter to all teachings of holy faith and humanitarian values.”
In the UK, leader of the Muslim Council of Great Britain Dr Shuja Shafi, condemned the attacks “in the strongest possible terms,” labelling them “horrific and abhorrent”.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/paris-terror-muslim-leaders-around-the-world-condemn-heinous-attacks-a6734711.html
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Wilts. You are wasting your breath. We get this EVERY f**kING TIME.
Why don't Muslim leaders condemn X?
And every f**king time, if you Google "Muslim leaders condemning X" you get hit after hit after f**king hit.
I can only assume that the people who complain about Muslim leaders really REALLY don't want to hear about them being sensible, caring, intelligent human beings.
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LIe has been said before Billy, emotion has replaced thinking has replaced policy.... We are, undoubetdly, condemned to a vicious cycle of vengeance for me, vengance for you, vengeance for him. We've had 15 eyars of it so far with sod all result except make the thing 100 times worse. Now we seem to have reached the fatuous solution adopted by the Israealis and referred to many, many posts ago. Like I said, Festung Europa is upon us. And much good will it do us.
BobG
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Right Glyn, take out of the discussion the 'alleged' rapists of the young girl in Keighley and let's return to the Paris attacks.
They were carried out by IS....that stands for 'Islamic State'.
Now please justify your comments about the Archbishop of Canterbury failing to condemn every crime committed by a "C of E-R".
I'm intrigued.
No, let's NOT take the case of the alleged rapists out of it - YOU put it there, and it's the entire reason I posted what I did. Because YOU wanted some sort of religion-based apology from an Imam regarding a case that is non-religious (and not even proven yet), and therefore by inference would want an apology from an Imam for every crime committed by someone Islamic, I turned such a demand back onto Christianity to show how ridiculous your demand was - and by demanding it from those of Islamic faith only, have you any idea how that makes you look?
I wonder why you demanded it in the first place. As you say, I'm intrigued.
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Rob, how long can people keep up that level of security checking at every venue in the country though?
After a while it all goes back to normal and them the terrorist strikes again.
As is being discussed on another thread, serious measures against IS have to be taken in an attempt to wipe them off the Earth.
Lots of people are saying what shouldnt be done but anyone who makes a suggestion about bombing or sending troops in is getting "shot down" (no pun) without much in the way of an alternative being put forward.
A good point, Hound. In contrast, I saw Frank Turner on Thursday night at Sheffield O2 Academy and security was very relaxed. Only the odd person was getting frisked and my mates and I walked straight in
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Major racking up of Defence to be announced next week UK to buy 136 F35 Stealth fighters instead of a mere 42 for our Queen Elizabeth Carriers making us 2nd most powerful maritime Power after US.
We are also going to replace the Nimrod ASW aircraft with something new instead of the 3 ,40 year old Rivet joint Aircraft we are currently using.
Also linking the £12 Billion aid budget with defence so we spend money on Nations which are in need of re building after war etc.
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THIS is the reason why we need to keep cool heads.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/24/donald-trump-on-waterboarding-even-if-it-doesnt-work-they-deserve-it
Read that again. This man is going to be the Republican Presidential candidate next November.
"Would I approve waterboarding? You bet your ass I would. In a heartbeat. I would approve more than that. It works… and if it doesn’t work, they deserve it anyway for what they do to us."
This man could well be the Leader of the Free World in 12 months. And he's not only advocating the illegal use of torture. He's advocating using it as retribution even if it doesn't work.
What exactly ARE these values that we're supposed to be guarding and cherishing in this fight with radical Islamism?
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Billy, Trump has been coming out with outlandish things like this for awhile now. We either laugh, cringe or ignore him. I know middle American loves his knee jerk diatribes, but it's hard to believe that someone with an Ivy League education, and is a millionaire with a huge empire of real estate holdings did not succeed because of narrow views, racist statements and not doing research on issues important to his businesses.
It's his schtick (sp?) to get press coverage and in a way is a parody of all politicians, and I'm sure he knows it. I can only believe that if the American people are stupid enough to elect him, that he stops this ridiculousness, and actually thinks!
Well, thats what we hope anyway... 😧 :blush:.
Trouble is Hillary, whom I have lost respect for due to her email scandals, is the best person to lead the country, but may have lost it already because use of this.
Tough times ahead I'm afraid on a lot of different levels.
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Surely if it comes down to Trump vs Clinton then Clinton will win. I read somewhere that the Clinton camp has been delighted with the way the Republican race has played out, as they were desperate to avoid fighting someone seen as "mainstream."
I suppose it is similar to the situation in this country. The Tories will be relaxed so long as Corbyn remains Labour leader. Although people might look at Corbyn and agree with some of his policies, they can't see themselves voting for him to be PM. I guess it is the same with Trump, although from a completely different political angle.
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I certainly hope so TRB! The trouble is Clinton is thought of as unlikeable, so hope they can get past that and also not be taken in by Trump's bluster.
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How anyone can vote for that buffoon Trump is beyond me. He makes Boris Johnson look like Brian Cox.
(For anyone else who isn't aware of the extent of Trump's buffoonery, here's 21 things the Republican believes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34903577))
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I certainly hope so TRB! The trouble is Clinton is thought of as unlikeable, so hope they can get past that and also not be taken in by Trump's bluster.
I think Clinton is unlikeable also. I think it's a pity the Democrats can't come up with someone more appealing.
Although Obama was appealing, but hasn't proved to be a very effective President.
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How anyone can vote for that buffoon Trump is beyond me. He makes Boris Johnson look like Brian Cox.
(For anyone else who isn't aware of the extent of Trump's buffoonery, here's 21 things the Republican believes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34903577))
If Bush can get elected twice, Trump can very easily win over the same part of the electorate. Which is bloody scary.
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The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
Winston Churchill
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Aye. But the electorate called it right in 1945 though. Maybe that's what gave the miserable old Kitson the hump.
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Eh up BB
Apparently there's no evidence that Churchill ever said that.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CAURBAAAQBAJ&dq=average+voter+churchill+by+himself+google+books&q=average+voter#v=snippet&q=average%20voter&f=false
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It's still a bloody good line though.
BobG
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Eh up BB
Apparently there's no evidence that Churchill ever said that.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CAURBAAAQBAJ&dq=average+voter+churchill+by+himself+google+books&q=average+voter#v=snippet&q=average%20voter&f=false
Well I'll claim it then!
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THIS is the reason why we need to keep cool heads.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/24/donald-trump-on-waterboarding-even-if-it-doesnt-work-they-deserve-it
Read that again. This man is going to be the Republican Presidential candidate next November.
"Would I approve waterboarding? You bet your ass I would. In a heartbeat. I would approve more than that. It works… and if it doesn’t work, they deserve it anyway for what they do to us."
This man could well be the Leader of the Free World in 12 months. And he's not only advocating the illegal use of torture. He's advocating using it as retribution even if it doesn't work.
What exactly ARE these values that we're supposed to be guarding and cherishing in this fight with radical Islamism?
I'm pretty sure that the 2nd Amendment was written with somebody like Trump in mind.
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Interesting I was told on this thread guns aren't the problem.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34942450 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34942450)
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Interesting I was told on this thread guns aren't the problem.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34942450 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34942450)
It may have been better if they had let them through.
http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2015/04/21/viral-video-quickly-leads-winchester-sxp-shotgun-recall/
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Sandy
For what it's worth, I don't buy the "Trump knows it's wrong but he's doing it to get elected line." I reckon he has just let his ignorant and bigoted beliefs off the leash because he knows that thry resonate with a big chunk of the electorate.
That is a frightening indictment of America. But if your claim is right, it's even scarier.
If a serious candidate for the White House is deliberately and knowingly spreading lies like this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35037007
in order to boost his chances of being elected, then I fear greatly for the future. When politicians play these games, when they knowingly play up to ignorance and hatred, then we're truly on the edge of the precipice.
These are NOT times to be fostering hatred.
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Now the moron is refusing to back down over claims that followers of Islam shouldn't even be allowed to enter the country.
He's a caricature encompassing everything wrong with this country. As his comments and claims become increasingly outlandish, I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all some sort of perverse joke.
Or is that just wishful thinking on my part?
There is no way he will become president; I'm just not having it.
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There's been some lunatic Republicans down the years, but this one takes the cake. I've signed the petition.
BobG
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He was on SNL a few weeks ago. I'm hoping he thinks he's still there, and he's merely trying to amuse us with his witty improv.
I find it difficult to believe the man has ever even read the Constitution.
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Sandy
For what it's worth, I don't buy the "Trump knows it's wrong but he's doing it to get elected line." I reckon he has just let his ignorant and bigoted beliefs off the leash because he knows that thry resonate with a big chunk of the electorate.
That is a frightening indictment of America. But if your claim is right, it's even scarier.
If a serious candidate for the White House is deliberately and knowingly spreading lies like this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35037007
in order to boost his chances of being elected, then I fear greatly for the future. When politicians play these games, when they knowingly play up to ignorance and hatred, then we're truly on the edge of the precipice.
These are NOT times to be fostering hatred.
I understand your concern Billy but as others have said, I doubt he will actually get that far in his campaign. There is starting to be a backlash about his views, both within the Republican Party, outside it and in the press. Maybe we have all stopped laughing and realize that he is just too damaging to our country with the things he says. He may appeal to a certain populace, but given that he is saying things that go against our constitution and are racist and ignorant, his appeal will diminish as more and more press coverage is given to his opposition, discussed in the news, and also in editorial pieces which shed light on his unethical views.
And of course I hope this happens sooner rather than later - before his rants can cause serious harm here or in England.
As for what he is thinking or why, it's anyone's guess at this stage!
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Sandy
I admire your optimism about your countrymen. Not sure the polling evidence backs up such a sanguine approach. A VERY large percentage of your countrymen and a majority of Republicans appear to support some of the nutcase ideas that Trump espouses.
http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm
And every time Trump ups the ante, his support increases.
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh16rep.htm
What makes you think that media exposure of his views will bleed his support away. I'd say the opposite. What he is doing is giving validation to the ignorant bigotry that maybe 30-40% of the electorate (according to those polls) appear to agree with but maybe were reticent about expressing until a demagogue came along telling them that they should be proud of these ideas.
And if he DOESN'T get the ticket? Look at the other contenders.
Carson is even more unhinged.
Rubio has been on record as being unsure about evolution and whether the Earth was or was not created in accordance with the Genesis story.
Cruz is a balls-out climate-change denier.
It's not promising is it? In that company, Trump is just first among equals in his ignorant stupidity.
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My worry is that people of the nature of Trump, will start being elected in a lot of the countries. They have fixed, narrow and bigoted opinions on how things should be done.
This will escalate the troubles across the world. If you stop innocent people being able to go about everyday life, just because of colour or religion, where does it stop?.
Would he start making them wear armbands like the jews?, would it lead to ethnic cleansing as they call it?.
The fears of the world could lead to people like this getting in power, because they are saying things that make the people, feel like they will prioritise their security. Whereas the truth is a person like this as president is a danger to the whole world, with the influence any US president has, and the security of the people would be worse!.
It would lead to normal people thinking that those committing these atrocities, might have a point, it seems the extreme point of view is growing around the world!.
For me you stop the bombing, you secure things in your own country as best you can, and the British people and other countries have to get on with everyday life.
If they bring these things to our shores, they shouldn't be taken down to take to court, they should be took down where they stand, to let them know that if they blight our shores with their presence, they will meet their maker very soon!.
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Sandy
I admire your optimism about your countrymen. Not sure the polling evidence backs up such a sanguine approach. A VERY large percentage of your countrymen and a majority of Republicans appear to support some of the nutcase ideas that Trump espouses.
http://www.pollingreport.com/terror.htm
And every time Trump ups the ante, his support increases.
http://www.pollingreport.com/wh16rep.htm
What makes you think that media exposure of his views will bleed his support away. I'd say the opposite. What he is doing is giving validation to the ignorant bigotry that maybe 30-40% of the electorate (according to those polls) appear to agree with but maybe were reticent about expressing until a demagogue came along telling them that they should be proud of these ideas.
And if he DOESN'T get the ticket? Look at the other contenders.
Carson is even more unhinged.
Rubio has been on record as being unsure about evolution and whether the Earth was or was not created in accordance with the Genesis story.
Cruz is a balls-out climate-change denier.
It's not promising is it? In that company, Trump is just first among equals in his ignorant stupidity.
When a Bush is perhaps your best option, you know your choices are limited.
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When Dick Cheney thinks that the candidate who is dominating your polls is a deranged, Islamophobic, right-wing nut-job, you might just sit down and have a think where you are going.
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When Dick Cheney thinks that the candidate who is dominating your polls is a deranged, Islamophobic, right-wing nut-job, you might just sit down and have a think where you are going.
Yes, Dick Cheney is their secret weapon! Haha, very ironic that. But it's perfect. He speaks to the people who want to, as Trump says, 'bomb the sh*t of out em'. So if they see HIM coming out against Trump, then they may think twice about supporting him. Also, the actual candidates can't do that because it would cause Trump to attack them and they hope to scoop up some of those same voters once Trump is out of the way.
As for your polls, you know there will be many more outbursts from Trump and many more polls. It's too early in the game to start poll watching and getting on here and decrying his lead. You are also falling victim to his strange fascination, such as it is.
Remember that we are two party system, and with every once of our being we hope and pray that intelligence will outweigh emotions.