Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Sprotyrover on January 05, 2016, 08:01:04 pm
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Any local history Buffs out there who know some info on the Battle of Hatfield.?
The folk of Cuckney in Notts are trying to claim that the Battle was fought at Cuckney not Hatfield.
They have even got funding and set up the Battle of Hatfield investigation group.
From what I have seen they are merely trying to discredit any claim for the battle site in Yorkshire
You can rest assured that The 'Sprotmeister' can put them right 😉
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Could be in retaliation for nicking Robin Hood for the airport name
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Any local history Buffs out there who know some info on the Battle of Hatfield.?
The folk of Cuckney in Notts are trying to claim that the Battle was fought at Cuckney not Hatfield.
They have even got funding and set up the Battle of Hatfield investigation group.
From what I have seen they are merely trying to discredit any claim for the battle site in Yorkshire
You can rest assured that The 'Sprotmeister' can put them right 😉
I'm led to believe there's a Burial Mound in the field opposite the Chase pub on the A18, the Battle was actually called the Battle of Hatfield Chase and is thought to have been fought around the Tudworth area just down the road from the Green Tree. The River Don at that time flowed into a great mere that covered south of Thorne right over to the Isle of Axholme
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hatfield_Chase
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Good luck to 'em. The battle is very well documented in contemporary literature, as the Battle of Haethfield, by Bede and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (not that I have read it in the original) but no one has yet identified where it was actually fought.
Bede says that it was on a plain, which immediately takes it away from Hatfield Chase as the bits that weren't part of the forest would have been underwater in that time.
Max Adams in 'The King of the North' goes with...'an area between Sprotborough, Brodsworth and North Elmsall, at the centre of which there is a Raven Hill, which would have been a suitable location for carrion birds to look down on the bloody field of battle'.
So there you go. Get out there with your metal detector and let us know if you find anything.
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Lets get the spelling right first lads.
It was the Hatfield Chace, not Chase.
The name on the pub on the corner says Chase and it surprises me that whoever came up with the name didn't research properly before naming it.
The Chace was a Royal Hunting ground in days gone by and in recent years the name has been corrupted to the current "Chase."
Also, supposedly linked to the battle is a burial pit in Hatfield Woodhouse on the now named Slaypit Lane.
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Originally is a difficult concept when it comes to history tho Hound. As I put above the Saxons say the battle was at Haethfield - so that immediately means your Hatfield is not 'original', never mind Chase or Chace.
I have photocopies of all the original documents relating to the drainage of the area in the 1600's at my mothers so will have to have a look at what it is called the next time I am up (end of the month Walsall game), in the meantime this is a poster from 1872 from the Hatfield Chase Corporation Archive
www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/collectionsindepth/water/hatfieldchase.aspx
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An interesting poster wilts.
My information was given to me from my school days and a local historian.
The wording "Chace" comes from much further back than the date of the poster you have shown though, considerably previouslly to the draining of the land by Vermuyden which as you say was in the 1600's.
On the subject of Vermuyden, someone i know who lives at Thorne Waterside had a large extension built on their house a few years ago which meant dismantling part of the roof.
A large "A frame" section of the roof had to be removed and the timbers it consisted of were allegedly from one of Mr Vermuydens ships.
The timbers were re-used in the house alterations.
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I read 'King in the North' too Wilts and Max Adams gives a convincing argument that the battle was somewhere near the Roman Ridge around Scawsby/ Sprotbrough.
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It's a while since I read this book but wasn't Oswald or one of the other 'Kings' killed at another huge battle near Bawtry.
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That's sort of right Tommy. King Aethelfrith of Northumbria was defeated and killed in a battle 'between the Trent and the Idle' supposedly around Bawtry. Barrow Hill is thought to be where the casualties were buried.
Aethefrith was defeated by a joint force of King Raedwald of East Anglia and Edwin of Northumbria. Edwin went on to assume the throne of Northumbria and it was he who was killed at Hatfield by Penda of Mercia and Cadwallon of Gwynedd. Oswald then replaced Edwin as King of Northumbria.
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Thanks Wilts, great stuff! These were fascinating times that shaped our History.
Thank God for Bede and the Anglo Saxon Chronicles...and the Historians who make sense of it.
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A couple of things puzzling me,the Ravenhill mentioned in King in the North,where is it,I have lived all my life in the area Max Adams claims is the battle sight but I can't place it.
I do know that the Saxons used the Long Barrow at King Hengist wood,and there is a bit of a hill with a wood called King Hengist Rhein nearby.
A recent article in the guardian showed the ethnic break down of the region is unchanged since 600 AD most of us West of Hatfield are of Britonic not Saxon,Danish,Roman,or Norman ancestry.
The division falls in nicely with a map of the ancient British Kingdom of Elmet.
I understand that Elmet had been subjugated about 615 and in 633 most of it was populated by Britons with an axe to grind.
Hatfield was a tiny sub Kingdom called Meicen,including Wroot and Misson
It was a client kingdom of Deira which also controlled Lindsay and therefore linked Deira and Lindsay,
You could sail from York to Hatfiled,Lincoln to Hatfield,The Humber to Hatfield.
It makes sense for Edwin to be based there near the Rivers which could provide an escape or reinforcements ,in relatively friendly territory.
Cadwalan and Penda came over the Pennines from Chester on the old Roman Road,no doubt gathering recruits from disgruntled Brits in the Peak and Elmet.
Most battles in this period were fought where such a road crossed a river
So I wonder if it occurred further south near Bawtry,or did they catch Edwin by surprise at Hatfield.
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Or the Roman Road that runs past Sprotborough maybe?
The book is well worth getting if you are interested in the Anglo Saxon period and Northumbria in particuar. You can access some of it on line and this is the bit about Raven Hill.
I dont know the area well enough to help - I was hoping you were going to be our local expert! It must be an old name that has fallen out of use, the Victorian OS maps are a good place to start.
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The best spot in the region mentioned is Scawsby Lees a couple of armies have camped there in the past, including the Pilgramage of Grace,straddles the Roman road,you can see your enemy from miles away and can attack as they try to cross the Don there is afield there called Broad axe field between the ridge and the great north road.
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A period of history that confuses the hell out of me, half of them were brothers the other half cousins, fighting each other, it's like a Barnsley family fighting over the Kendray estate!. :laugh:
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Just discovered that Ravenhill is now called Richmond Hill!
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Rickie Richmond Hill sounds a bit posh though doesn't it?
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Hatfield was originally called Heathfield and that name is held by the new Health Centre.
Hatfield Chase P.H. was called Hatfield Chace when it first opened and mine hosts were George and Eva Simm, their son George played for Donny Intermediates and he now lives in Pickering with his Dunscroft born wife. Jillian, George jnr is off Broadway and his mam and dad owned the chippy near the Regal. (well we are talking history)
Peter Etherington R.I.P was the landlord when the pub was called Chace as was Mark and Karen and later Andrea and Mark, then it had a major revamp about 7 years ago and it is now Chase??????
The burial mound is protected and it cannot be ploughed on nor built on, all the field around it is ploughed and there are houses behind it. So Hound is correct in what he is telling you.
If you think that is confusing...Stainforth was a Roman encampment and was part of the Conisborough Camp... Strange but True
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Stainfirth was originally known as Stony Ford.
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I did not know that... :blush: and I went to school there (says a lot that does)
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The ford at Stony ford was where the fislake bridge now stands
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Correct.
Local history is fascinating.
The original settlement there was along the river bank.
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Hatfield was originally called Heathfield and that name is held by the new Health Centre.
Hatfield Chase P.H. was called Hatfield Chace when it first opened and mine hosts were George and Eva Simm, their son George played for Donny Intermediates and he now lives in Pickering with his Dunscroft born wife. Jillian, George jnr is off Broadway and his mam and dad owned the chippy near the Regal. (well we are talking history)
Peter Etherington R.I.P was the landlord when the pub was called Chace as was Mark and Karen and later Andrea and Mark, then it had a major revamp about 7 years ago and it is now Chase??????
The burial mound is protected and it cannot be ploughed on nor built on, all the field around it is ploughed and there are houses behind it. So Hound is correct in what he is telling you.
If you think that is confusing...Stainforth was a Roman encampment and was part of the Conisborough Camp... Strange but True
In the mid-sixties Ces Stirland the ex-Rovers full back was the landlord.
We used to do all of Darleys pubs plumbing and heating.
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That may have been when George and Eva took The Sheffield Arms at Burton on Stather
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We worked there as well in 1966.
I remember dashing back from there to get to Valley Parade for our final match of that season. Happy days.
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Hatfield was originally called Heathfield and that name is held by the new Health Centre.
Hatfield Chase P.H. was called Hatfield Chace when it first opened and mine hosts were George and Eva Simm, their son George played for Donny Intermediates and he now lives in Pickering with his Dunscroft born wife. Jillian, George jnr is off Broadway and his mam and dad owned the chippy near the Regal. (well we are talking history)
Peter Etherington R.I.P was the landlord when the pub was called Chace as was Mark and Karen and later Andrea and Mark, then it had a major revamp about 7 years ago and it is now Chase??????
The burial mound is protected and it cannot be ploughed on nor built on, all the field around it is ploughed and there are houses behind it. So Hound is correct in what he is telling you.
If you think that is confusing...Stainforth was a Roman encampment and was part of the Conisborough Camp... Strange but True
In the mid-sixties Ces Stirland the ex-Rovers full back was the landlord.
We used to do all of Darleys pubs plumbing and heating.
did you use to work for Hirsts Idler?
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No, it was Heatwell Engineering Co. Park Rd. just off East Laith Gate.
We had one lad, Ken that was actually based in the brewery.
The rest of us used to just go to their pubs as and when needed.
We used to see lads from a decorating company regular on the big jobs. I can't remember if they were employees of the brewery or sub- contract.
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Stainfirth was originally known as Stony Ford.
I have a few theories about the Stony ford at Stainforth, I am wondering whether it was a Roman paved Ford like the one found at Kilgram Bridge North Yorkshire,
The Romans were good at building objects in water as they had cement that dried in water,
for it to be a Roman ford there would need to be a good reason for them to build it.
Did a Roman road run from Hatfield up to Snaith perhaps ?
Fishlake was a major settlement in the Domesday book, was it the case in Roman times?
The Brigante border defences known as the Roman Ridge ended at Hatfield, although no Fortifications have been publicised the ones at Long Sandal have been identified but not excavated, what do you local guys reckon?
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Very feasible as encampments go, this area was the end of the Roman Ridge, surprising though there was a pun up Scawsby called The Roman Ridge. Many artefacts have been unearthed around here
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Bally We call the Roman road that goes past the Pub The Roman Rig,it was a posh all singing all dancing Roman Road which ended up in York.
We know that there were also far older highways used to trade Salt the Romans also maintained these probably to the standard of the military roads built in Scotland after the 1745 Rebellion.
Now please correct me if I'm wrong but building stone probably was shipped down the Don from Sprotbrough to build a paved ford,have a look at the article in Brigante Nation website about Kilgram Bridge,it might mean something to any forum member who has spent time around the bridge to fish lake,we are finding Roman sites all over Doncaster, Maybe the Ford was built to be used at low tide as the river was navigable up to Templeborough.(Roman ships didn't. Sit deep in the water) If you do go on Brigante Nation have a look at the article about the Gallus Frontier,there is an interesting map which is now out of date as it is missing the Roman Forts at Bawtry,Redhouse and Long Sandal also the Brigante Fortifiction at Long Sandal.
Cheers
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Sproty, you certainly know your stuff, I am not going to argue with those facts. Strange that Bawtry is still posted as a 12th century port. When I lived there in 90's, everything beyond the railway line was regularly flooded and certainly in winter. makes you wonder if those days will return. The Romans as we know built the Great North Rd and sounds like the Road you refer to in Scawsby was a further addition to their superb road structure
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We could do with them coming back to sort out the High Street in Hatfield.......................
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Now that might take the Romans and the Vikings, it never gets any better does it, orrible scrap cars around left for days on the road, nice new small houses at Johnny Morris's old garage site.. He was my mam and dad's best man in 1949. Happy Days yep and yes I went swimming there regularly at the open air pool owned by Bob Parker, it was worth the walk in them days
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A bit of Stainforth's history here
http://www.stainforthonline.co.uk/2001/stainforth_history.htm
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Filo..
You may just have unearthed an answer when in 1086, what is now being discussed as Chase or Chace was infact "Heathfield (Hatfield) Chase. It may appear that the Brewery that built the pub (Darley's) infact got the spelling wrong and it may be that the Chase and the Health Centre for some reason have been taken back in time name wise...Edwin I was told as a kid is supposed to be buried in Hatfield Church but there is no mention.
One hell of a treck between Stainy and Hatfield, done it thousands of times..My mam was the manageress of Northern Dairies 1950 - until it closed as Gallons in 74.
I remember the old white farm buildings of The Abbey (The original not the pub) when I was a kid living in Stanley Grove next to Ikey's . I used to go and look, sadly also remember it being knocked down, the story there was that at the time of the Reformation the monks had a tunnel from the Abbey up to St Lawrence's, I do not know if this can be true because both buildings were Anglican ones. But what goes around, the Abbey pub as you well know is now some shops.
Just down the road at Belton, last year the renovations at "The Wheatsheaf Pub" were stopped because human remains were found under the car park, these turned out to be Roman remains which is also probable within your article to be true.No respect for the dead they have built two houses beside the pub, not for me I have seen the film "What is under the floor boards"
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As a former resident of Hatfield I find this thread fascinating.
On the link between the church and the Abbey, I was a pupil at Travis and I remember the vicar telling us that St. Lawrence's was built in the Norman era, so a connection to the abbey is quite possible. It would only have become an Anglican church after the Reformation. Presumably the original Abbey was a victim of Thomas Cromwell!
And the pub was definitely the Chace. I hardly ever went in there though because I went to the High School and it was always full of teachers! Whenever I hear Madness' Baggy Trousers I always think of the Chace.
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Yes too many teachers getting over their headaches of Mon to Fri. I went to St Peters but of course mine hosts were friends of my Mam and Dad...No Chance of a drink. Might have to dig into The Abbey
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Just tried to put a link in this thread but on test will not open but if you go onto Hatfield Town Council website and go into History section, there are some probable answers. I always wondered why we called Stainforth just Stainy, thought it was slang but did not know it dated back to Stainy Ford. well well you never are too old to learn.
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As a former resident of Hatfield I find this thread fascinating.
On the link between the church and the Abbey, I was a pupil at Travis and I remember the vicar telling us that St. Lawrence's was built in the Norman era, so a connection to the abbey is quite possible. It would only have become an Anglican church after the Reformation. Presumably the original Abbey was a victim of Thomas Cromwell!
And the pub was definitely the Chace. I hardly ever went in there though because I went to the High School and it was always full of teachers! Whenever I hear Madness' Baggy Trousers I always think of the Chace.
Baron.. Just unearthed this as the Abbey was initially called Dunscroft Grange AND you were right it was Catholic as the Cistercian monks were there as part of Roche Abbey until Reformation
Cistercian monks
probably residential grange dependent on Roche
founded after 1186;
dissolved with Roche? (25 June 1538)
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Just tried to put a link in this thread but on test will not open but if you go onto Hatfield Town Council website and go into History section, there are some probable answers. I always wondered why we called Stainforth just Stainy, thought it was slang but did not know it dated back to Stainy Ford. well well you never are too old to learn.
bally,the old name was STONY Ford, not Stainy Ford.
I reckon that Stainy is as you originally thought, a shortened version of Stainforth.
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There is quite a lot of detail about Roche Abbey here:
http://cistercians.shef.ac.uk/roche/lands/
Dunscroft Grange is mentioned in the table of lands held by the abbey but not much detail is given.
PS. The Grange seems to have been built in the 12th century when Roche Abbey was granted the advowson of the Parish Church at Hatfield by the local lord of manor. That meant the abbey had the right to appoint the parish priest and take income from the tithes. The Grange would have been used to collect and store the tithes. It may have also been where the priest lodged, hence the tales of the tunnel, which is probably a local myth. The abbey was granted the advowson of Hatfield because it was hard up, and constructing a tunnel would have been a costly business.
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Actually you are both wrong - if you go to Filo's link above the author has copied out the piece on Stainforth from the Domesday Book which says:
"In Stenforde there are seven sokemen with four carucates. Wood, pasture one quarenten long and the same broad"
So in 1086 it was Stenforde. It was 250 years after that, when the village was chartered in 1348, that it was Stonyford.
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More here:
http://www.hatfieldtowncouncil-southyorkshire.com/Core/Hatfield-TC/Pages/Parish_History_1.aspx
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Actually you are both wrong - if you go to Filo's link above the author has copied out the piece on Stainforth from the Domesday Book which says:
"In Stenforde there are seven sokemen with four carucates. Wood, pasture one quarenten long and the same broad"
So in 1086 it was Stenforde. It was 250 years after that, when the village was chartered in 1348, that it was Stonyford.
So, actually wilts i was not wrong.
I didn't say the original name was Stony Ford, but that thoe OLD name was Stony Ford.
I reckon that 1348 makes it an old name. :thumbsup:
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Nice one hound, although on a technicality it is 'an' (one of the) old names rather than 'the' old name!
Does anyone know if this 1348 charter still exists?
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Lets get the spelling right first lads.
It was the Hatfield Chace, not Chase.
The name on the pub on the corner says Chase and it surprises me that whoever came up with the name didn't research properly before naming it.
The Chace was a Royal Hunting ground in days gone by and in recent years the name has been corrupted to the current "Chase."
Also, supposedly linked to the battle is a burial pit in Hatfield Woodhouse on the now named Slaypit Lane.
Hi really interested in the post who said the pub is Chace not Chase - I'm trying to establish its real name! Can anyone help
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It was always the Chace in the 60s when we did Darley's Brewery plumbing and heating jobs.
Ex Rover Cec Stirland was the manager there then.
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Re visiting this thread Richmond hill has a very strong claim to be the Ravenhill mentioned in the King in the North, ravens nest in cliffs, there ha been Ravens nesting in the Don Gorge recently.
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Lets get the spelling right first lads.
It was the Hatfield Chace, not Chase.
The name on the pub on the corner says Chase and it surprises me that whoever came up with the name didn't research properly before naming it.
The Chace was a Royal Hunting ground in days gone by and in recent years the name has been corrupted to the current "Chase."
Also, supposedly linked to the battle is a burial pit in Hatfield Woodhouse on the now named Slaypit Lane.
Hi really interested in the post who said the pub is Chace not Chase - I'm trying to establish its real name! Can anyone help
We studied this at school back in the sixties and it was always the Hatfield Chace, not Chase.
As Idler says, the pub was also the Chace in years gone by.
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Going off in a tangent a bit.
Michael Wood the Historian maintains that the battle in about 947 which Aethelstan won and united all England was fought along the plain between Barnsdale Bar and Burghwallis.
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It is also said that Robin Hood used to hang about at Barnsdale Bar.
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Well everone knows he was a yorkshireman
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Wasn't he from Sheffield? 😉
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T
It is also said that Robin Hood used to hang about at Barnsdale Bar.
There used to be a spring in the verge at the side of the A638 near Hazel Lane, the turn to Skelbrooke. Always known as Little John's well in my youth.
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The king inn the north speculates that Penda was killed at the river Went rather than the Cock Beck ,his army withdrawing south over a flooded Went was caught half way across and slaughtered.
No doubt at Wentbridge.
Theo's roaman road got some hammer back in those days!
The suggestion by Cook also takes into account the convergence of the the two Roman roads at Burghwallis who ever was sitting at Barnsdale Bar had a good view to the South and it was a strong defensive position..
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This has been a great thread guys thanks
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I agree great thread
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Have just purchased The King in the North based on comments
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Back on Topic The Battle of Hatfield took place on the 12 th October,I wouldn't be surprised if Edwin was at Hatfield to hunt the Red Deer on the moors as it's Rutting season?. The Red deer are huge on the moors and it must have been a good hunting ground hence it remaining a Royal hunting ground until it was drained by Vermoyden
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Sproty bow to your knowledge on this subject
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I am a bit more wary of that Sproty. The Chase didn't become a royal hunting area until 1347 when the de Warenne family, who had held it since the Norman Conquest ceded it to the crown. Certainly after that time it was specifically maintained for hunting and in Tudor times was said to be the best hunting ground in the country, but they seem to have hunted from boats. Did the Saxons do that?
It has a fair few deer on it now and it did under the Tudors, but you cant say that it is ideal country for them. Whereas up in the Cheviot Hills around his base in Yeavering it is perfect red deer country.
If Edwin was at Hatfield in October 633 I reckon he would have been hunting more human enemies than red deers.
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Wilts the red deer on the moors are huge,appRently the Saxon kings used to go from place to place putting on the local vassals for hospitality, as they did in the Middle Ages. I'm more into the preservation of wildlife than hunting so I don't know much about it. I do know the Stags make a racket in October which probably makes them easy to locate.the landscape out there didn't change much from the time of Ostorius Scapula until Vermuyden, so I assume the deer were always hunted in the same way.
Plus Hatfield is a good jump off point if you had a fleet of longships giving access to the Trent,Don,Idle,Humber,Ouse, River Witham via Lincoln,and the North Sea via either The Humber or the Witham.
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Random slightly related rumour.
I heard last night that The Hatfield Chase pub is going to be Slug and Lettuce pub!
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Random slightly related rumour.
I heard last night that The Hatfield Chase pub is going to be Slug and Lettuce pub!
It is certainly closed at the moment, I think for refurbishment.
Hope they keep the traditional name.
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Apparently it is going back to Chace
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..............and rightly so.