Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Donnywolf on February 20, 2016, 10:28:32 am
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Personally I think we as a Nation will vote to leave
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It'll be at least 55-45 to remain.
Folk will have their hissy fits over Europe, but when faced with the massive uncertainty of leaving, they will vote to stay.
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I think we'll leave, and I'll be voting to leave
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I'll vote to leave, but I think the vote will be to stay in. Will probably be a re-run of the Scottish Referendum over a shorter period.
Looking forward to that moment when the Remain Campaign gets all wobbly over a few polls though.
PS. Has Boris got off that fence yet?
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I'll probably vote leave but that might change. I expect remain to win though.
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I'll vote to stay.
At least we have a say at the moment. Norway, Switzerland etc dont but still have to confirm to EU requirements to trade.
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I dont think people know enough about why we should leave or stay.
There are too many who think we are still a major power in the world and can easily go our own way.
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I'll vote to stay. Much as I hate the way Europe does things and the fact that we pretty much always 'gold-plate' their rulings, the idea of 9 years of unfettered Tory government is too much to bear.
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I'll vote to stay. Much as I hate the way Europe does things and the fact that we pretty much always 'gold-plate' their rulings, the idea of 9 years of unfettered Tory government is too much to bear.
Whereas rule by right wing governments from abroad is fine eh? Tell it to the Greeks,i'm an outer,how many right wing parties have to take control of Europe before Labour becomes an out party again?
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Well, when Osborne or - heaven help us - Boris Trump rules the country, we'll need all the help we can get. I dread to think what further shite IDS and Gove would come up with in a new era of splendid isolation.
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For me the very fact all the Eastern European countries were up in arms about British benefits being stopped from going to people in their countries tells us every thing. Time to leave this godforsaken club and give Britain back to the British people!
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I'm convinced it will be a vote to leave, though I'll be voting to stay. The difficulty I have about all of this is that the population who will decide this simply don't have the first idea what life outside is going to be like but will vote based on relatively trivial dislikes of the way things are inside the union.
What I object to most in all of this is Cameron's willingness to put his personal political ambition ahead the nation's future.
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"British people". *sniggers uncontrollably*
That'll tickle me for the rest of the day. Thanks.
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I'll vote to stay. Much as I hate the way Europe does things and the fact that we pretty much always 'gold-plate' their rulings, the idea of 9 years of unfettered Tory government is too much to bear.
I know this isn't primarily a thread about reasons for staying or going, but I think a radical Labour government would probably find its plans frustrated by the EU. I'm surprised Corbyn is for staying in, but maybe he doesn't think it is worth picking a fight with his MPs over this.
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Oh I guess we will have plenty of those in the next few months TRB. Will Mad Mick make a comeback to give us the benefit of his knowledge on the issue though!
Labour by its very defination should be an internationalist party across political borders and thus a major supporter of initaives like the EU. I guess Corbyn's own political standpoint would be that the current regime isn't internationalist enough - and is far too tempered towards business interests than to ordinary people.
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Folks need to vote on the detail of what this all means, not the headline reasons.
My other half is German (we are not married) and has lived in the UK for 20+ years. Does leaving the EU mean that freedom of movement and freedom to work etc will be rescinded? Would leaving the EU force families like mine to be torn apart?
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For me the very fact all the Eastern European countries were up in arms about British benefits being stopped from going to people in their countries tells us every thing. Time to leave this godforsaken club and give Britain back to the British people!
What do you define as a British person Filo?
So much sweeping generalisations in your posts. What's the matter, too many Polish taxi drivers?
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The fact they even put it to a vote means they know we well stay. As BST says it will be 60/40 ish.
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If the UK does decide to leave Europe, I just hope we go somewhere nice. Maybe the Caribbean?
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I'm convinced it will be a vote to leave, though I'll be voting to stay. The difficulty I have about all of this is that the population who will decide this simply don't have the first idea what life outside is going to be like but will vote based on relatively trivial dislikes of the way things are inside the union.
What I object to most in all of this is Cameron's willingness to put his personal political ambition ahead the nation's future.
Agree - sums up exactly what I think and why I set up the Poll to see what people thought would happen
Its a massive issue and needs deciding on the holistic view not as you say the minutiae just agreed by Cameron and other trivia ... and for me that's the problem we need so much info to make the correct decision and so it is confusing already when the supposed "Government" cant agree Yes or No (ok as a Party they are promoting Remain - whilst 6 of the same Cabinet have been allowed to campaign for Leave)
If they cant agree for goodness sake "armed" with lets hope "a greater knowledge" than we the electorate, how the hell are we going to get it right ? It will probably be decided as you say on a single issue such as immigration
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Rather than predicting that the sky will fall in if we vote to leave, the Remain camp needs to stress the positive benefits. Otherwise as you say it will come down mainly to immigration.
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TRB
I don't often agree with Matthew Parris, but he wrote a superb piece on that very theme in The Times yesterday.
He stressed that the Remain case shouldn't be about bean counting (even though it's an unanswerable case). Rather, it should be a philosophical one. About emphasising the strength and collective fortitude of what Europe has produced and how it is still, as an ideal, a beacon to the world. In a world where America may be going to Trump, where China with its very different philosophical approach is going to be increasingly powerful, where Putin's bristling gangster state is on our borders and where radical Islam is the very antithesis of the European ideal, making a decision on whether you'd be a few quid better or worse off is an abdication of responsibility.
The issue is whether Europe stands together as an example. Or whether we Brits choose to weaken the foundations.
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Give Britain back to the British people!
Where have I heard rhetoric like that before? Oh yes, that's right:
(https://m.bnp.org.uk/sites/default/files/images/bnp_britain_for_the_british_2_1.jpg)
Awful, divisive language. For shame.
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You know what Sad...? I'm in grave danger of agreeing with you yet again!
I am a convinced Europhile. I always will be. It's not that I think the EC is wonderful. I don't. But I am a historian. I know where every major war bar about three have started this last 3 hundred years. You've got it: in Europe.
Anything that encourages European collaboration, communication, gets my vote every time. There is centuries of experience showing that the absence of a collective European body brings misery to tens of millions and death to millions more. I will put up with an awful lot of euro crap to maintain that pan European entente.
The existence of I.S., Putin, George Osborne, Donald Trump and a resurgent China are, of course, other good reasons why Europe should stick together. As does the fact (yes - fact) that immigration brings net economic and experential gain to this country year after year after year.
There's no such thing as an 'Englishman' anyway. We are every one of us descended from immigrants. Even Michael bleeding Portillo and Michael holier than thou Howard.
Cheers
BobG
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I see we are already into personal attacks rather than facts as well
Quote Cameron when asked what would happen if Boris joined the leave Camp - "well if he wants to take a leap in the dark while holding the hands of George Galloway and Nigel Farage".
Then after BJ had confirmed he was going to throw his weight behind the "Leave" campaign Hesseltine comes on and says "look hes been In then Out then in then Out and finally opts to go to the Out side and take a huge leap into the Dark" (or something similar)
What we need is FACTS and neither of the above examples advance the debate one iota
I don't want to be scaremongered with phrases like a "leap in the dark" and the "dark side" - I want to know what they both ARE ..... AND even though Galloway and Farage may be controversial and not to everyone's taste neither are Cameron and particularly Osborne
Will they all cut it out and stick to the facts ? As much chance as BBC saying enough coverage already so lets have a One Hour Special every day repeated if necessary for those who missed it the first time round
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Exactly right, DW.
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We've been into personal attacks rather than facts ever since Farage entered the scene. That's how he's built his whole career.
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DW
Because in Boris's case, everything is always about Boris.
He hasn't got an ideological case for or against Europe. What he's doing is sniffing the wind in the Tory party and positioning himself to be the next leader.
He's a sideshow to the main issue. Unless the main issue actually becomes the Tory party tearing itself apart on this issue.
I've said and I still believe that Corbyn is unelectable. But given that they have such a weak and unrealistic Opposition, it's possible that the Tories will lose their discipline and descend into civil war over Europe. Johnson is just picking his side in that war, because he thinks that gives him the better chance of getting into No10. Which is all he is interested in.
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.... because he thinks that gives him the better chance of getting into No10. Which is all he is interested in. (from above)
And that is exactly what is worrying me ! From whichever side and Party the comments come there are hidden Agendas - and personal attacks and this vote Remain or Leave is just TOO big to be at the mercy of such spurious tactics
As an electorate we just NEED the facts on which to decide. As an electorate we need to get this RIGHT for us as a Country and while people (Politicians mainly) resort to cheap shots and jibes and self promoting tactics there will be a smokescreen over the whole debate obscuring the reality
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When was the last time British politics was about facts? This In/Out campaign seems to be built on emotion, from both sides. I agree DW, we need to have the facts, but I would be very surprised if either side presents too many of them. Expect plenty more "leap in the dark" and "risk of terrorism" rhetoric from both sides, sadly.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12167625/Emergency-migrant-brake-likely-to-face-Luxembourg-court-challenge.html
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12167625/Emergency-migrant-brake-likely-to-face-Luxembourg-court-challenge.html
Unfortunately that is typical of the usual anti-EU article - lots of 'may' and 'likely' (ie 'may not' and 'just as unlikely') and absolutely no attributed official quotes (ie made up by the sub-editor).
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12167625/Emergency-migrant-brake-likely-to-face-Luxembourg-court-challenge.html
Reading that article, it's intesting that in 1963 the French, the Country we helped to liberate 18 years earlier veto'd our joining the forerunner of the EU, now they want us to stay, but on their terms. No thanks from me, lets decide our own destiny instead of some one from Brussells deciding it for us
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Filo
You need to be aware of the context of that French veto.
DeGaulle had just been stupidly insulted by a senior American NATO Officer. DeGaulle had asked him for details of American nuclear weapons stationed on French soil. The officer refused to tell him. That caused a diplomatic kerfuffle which led directly to France pulling out of some of the NATO treaty obligations. It was bloody stupid because the officer simply had to refer back to the Pentagon or White House for authorisation. Instead, he egregiously insulted France.
Following on from that, America then decided to give Polaris ICBMs to Britain but not to France.
deGaulle saw Britain as effectively throwing its lot in with the USA and being against the interests of Europe. And perhaps with some justification.
That's the context for the veto in 1963.
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When was the last time British politics was about facts? This In/Out campaign seems to be built on emotion, from both sides. I agree DW, we need to have the facts, but I would be very surprised if either side presents too many of them. Expect plenty more "leap in the dark" and "risk of terrorism" rhetoric from both sides, sadly.
I am afraid you will be absolutely 100% correct !
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... and speaking of FACTS - how many times will Cameron say or use the phrase " within a reformed EEC"
What the hell has happened for it to be reformed ? The anti brigade are panning him saying the "deal" he has delivered is pitifully thin and I for one believe them
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Whatever view you take on leaving or staying, I think we can agree that it is disingenuous for anyone to claim that the EU is "reformed." At best Cameron has gained a few concessions over specific issues that matter to the UK. At worst, they may not amount to a hill of beans, especially as there is no guarantee that they can't be overturned by the European Parliament or the European Court of Justice.
The referendum really needs to be fought on the issues of whether the UK would be more prosperous and secure inside or outside the EU.
I wonder how many times we'll hear the phrase "leap in the dark" and its variants in the next 4 months?
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It's like the vote in Scotland all over again.
People generally don't like change, so there'll be enough votes to remain.
I think you are probably right, but so far there is a key similarly with the Scottish Referendum which may prove damaging to the Remain camp. They are focusing heavily on the negatives of leaving rather than the positives of staying in.
The Scottish campaign was, of course, fought over a much longer timescale- largely at the instance of the SNP. At the outset the polls showed a healthy lead for the unionists, but they played their hand so poorly that they frittered it away. In this case the polls are unclear, some giving a lead to one side, some to the other - although we've been in a phoney war so far. The polls next weekend will make interesting reading.
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we will stay in but unfortunately not for the right reasons, I expect all that will be achieved is a stay of execution for the EU.
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Security is a bigger risk staying in, than coming out, there needs to be a points system that takes foreign workers in with skills. It can't be right that people who haven't paid into the countries coffers, are allowed to send money back to the country they came from, unless they worked for it.
Old people are being made to feel bad for living longer, why should they?, they paid money in and now they can't work they deserve to be looked after until their life ends.
This government has used hatred tactics, with foreign people, making out all are bad, people on benefits, encouraging people to be jealous because their neighbours light is on in the early hours, while they go to work in the dark, while the neighbour supposedly is laughing at them relaxing in bed.
What they didn't mention is the neighbour may have their light on because they can't sleep, either physical or mental pain. I cannot believe firstly how they got into power with the tactics they used 'Fear tactics', then how they continue to go after people who are most vulnerable in society.
It doesn't get mentioned that some of these foreign men and women, are given wages far below what our people get paid, live in worse conditions than we do.
The theory that all foreign people have sky, first priority on everything, it might be right with some, but not all. I get the feeling many come here thinking 'The streets and lined with gold', and find a very cold inhospitible which they wish they never left their own country for!
That's why a points system would help with security, with making sure human beings aren't being used, because they are as human as you and me, and it would hopefully weed out the criminal element, that no doubt have already done damage on our streets.
I just won't be brainwashed, that all foreign people are bad, everybody unemployed is laughing at those working.
I don't believe it, somewhere in the middle is the answer, this goverment is encouraging extreme views, black or white, no grey areas, they are the cruelest goverment we have ever had!.
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This hadn't occurred to me until a friend yesterday commented to me on the "poor timing" of the referendum.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35631257
Smack bang in the middle of the Euros. Cameron might be depending on Woy and co!
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When was the last time British politics was about facts? This In/Out campaign seems to be built on emotion, from both sides. I agree DW, we need to have the facts, but I would be very surprised if either side presents too many of them. Expect plenty more "leap in the dark" and "risk of terrorism" rhetoric from both sides, sadly.
First 2 entrants in Referendum Bingo for sure !
"Leap in the dark"
"Risk of Terrorism"
... you can also add
"a leap into the unknown"
" I am not standing for re-election"
" a reformed Euorpe"
and "Brexit" which I already detest with a passion !
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When I first heard "Brexit" I thought they said "Brix Smith" and I wondered if she was getting back with The Fall. :laugh:
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More scare tactics this morning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35636838
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More scare tactics this morning.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35636838
Funny that you should see it that way when the direct quotes in that article are the sort of positive stuff that you were saying (on the first page of this thread) that the remain camp should be using. Are you sure it's not the way that it's being reported that makes you think it's negative?
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I don't think the OUT campaign can produce any facts, because no-one knows what the end result would be. That is the scary thing in all this; we, the electorate, are voting on something that no politician, civil servant, journalist or economist truly understands.
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I don't think the OUT campaign can produce any facts, because no-one knows what the end result would be. That is the scary thing in all this; we, the electorate, are voting on something that no politician, civil servant, journalist or economist truly understands.
Did you hear Ken Clarke in the Commons yesterday? He put it very well I thought.
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you got a link Glyn?
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I heard it live on the radio as part of a PMQ but I've found the relevant bit in Hansard:
"Does he also agree that it is not the politics of fear to point out that those who advocate a no vote do not seem to know what a no vote means? They continually imply that all the benefits that flow from Europe in terms of jobs, investment and security will somehow continue to come here when they have swept away the obligations that previous British Government have always accepted."
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Well, this has got me convinced...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk
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One (fairly significant) consideration in this for me would be where we would stand in regard to TTIP if we leave. Would we escape the EU/US agreement?
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Hardly Mike. Cameron and buddies are dead set for the thing. So if it did go the way of the wind, it's come back soon enough. Yet another reason the Labour Party should apologise to each and every citizen of this country.
BobG
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Michael Gove wants OUT so that's decided it for me.
I will definitely be voting IN
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Well, this has got me convinced...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBi-KXc0CRk
Is that our Eurovision entry.....?
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Michael Gove wants OUT so that's decided it for me.
I will definitely be voting IN
... yes but Osborne says REMAIN ... so that surely equals itself out ?
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Add to that Tony Blair says we should stay in. Now if he says the sun rises in the east every morning I would want to check for myself.
But seriously... People should make up their minds based on the arguments, not on which particular politicians are on either side.
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So true - Adrian ? McGuire did a great piece in D Mirror yesterday where he assassinated Cameron and Boris and was disgusted that one of them will be on the right side of the vote !
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It's a very valid point though, DW. A lot of people were put off the no campaign in 1975 because two of their leading lights were Tony Benn and Enoch Powell- now there were a couple of Marmite politicians - Boris, Farage and Galloway look tame in comparison. But look back at the arguments they made- that we were being sold a super-state disguised as a trading alliance - and history shows they were right.
You may not like Gove, but I'll wager that within two years the ECJ rules some aspect of Cameron's "reforms" out of order. If not the whole lot.
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You may not like Gove, but I'll wager that within two years the ECJ rules some aspect of Cameron's "reforms" out of order. If not the whole lot.
I'd be 100% certain on that one :blink:
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In we go.... I would like to leave please, but I have a question which is very serious.
"Why are we having to wait until until 23rd June to put a cross in one of only two boxes on a piece of paper. The Irish Republic just three weeks ago....21 days no less called a General Election with multiple boxes on to be considered. This Friday 21 days later they are holding the Election nut why do we have to wait so long.
Just a thought...
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I would argue that with a referendum people need a bit longer to consider the issues at stake. The length of the Scottish referendum campaign was ridiculous, but was done purely for the benefit of the SNP. This feels about right.
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In we go.... I would like to leave please, but I have a question which is very serious.
"Why are we having to wait until until 23rd June to put a cross in one of only two boxes on a piece of paper. The Irish Republic just three weeks ago....21 days no less called a General Election with multiple boxes on to be considered. This Friday 21 days later they are holding the Election nut why do we have to wait so long.
Just a thought...
Could have something to do with the extra 60 million people required to vote.......... :huh:
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Yes but have you ever been for walks around Rural Ireland. One cottage here and one half way up a mountain some miles away...No post on Saturday or Sundays either. Typical British. Just like dying.....Dead and buried in most countries two or three days, here weeks. I have seen some obvious deaths and circumstances but still we have to have a P M and then drag it out at a time when families just do not need it.
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One (fairly significant) consideration in this for me would be where we would stand in regard to TTIP if we leave. Would we escape the EU/US agreement?
Interestingly, Kate Hoey (one of the few current politicians I admire) has just mentioned TTIP as a good reason to vote to Leave.
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The European Governments are already laying the Threats and Bullying tactics and demands, if we never go now then we are fodder for the rest of Europe. The Jungle Camp will never be in Dover because they cannot swim that far. The danger is that anyone under 40 years of age knows no different than the EU or as it was "The Common Market"
WE have fought two world wards for the Europeans and stated our case very well, it is OUT for me, not having that lot telling me what to do and our beaches are not up to European standards or we cannot kick out International terrorists AND our so called Legal system is paid for by us to keep them here. Australia has the idea. Take it or leave it. It is about time The British Isles had their own Civil Liberties.and Human Rights Bill again...... On that point, if the Scots and Welsh want to get independence then why not, they in general do not like the English as we know when we visit their countries some times (Not all of Scots and Welsh I may add).
Finally the big bug bear of mine with ancestors and late wife's family from Ireland, put the shutters up and get the Irish to sort one Country not two, one governed by the British..And one by the Pope take away the religion and all that crap (Yes I am a Catholic) so I state a good case. I visit Ireland regularly as my son does. I can tell you that their politics at this moment may just have a certain Gerry Adams as the Prime Minister in the Doile' , then it will be a matter of time.
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DAIL that is.
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WE have fought two world wards for the Europeans and stated our case very well, it is OUT for me, not having that lot telling me what to do and our beaches are not up to European standards or we cannot kick out International terrorists AND our so called Legal system is paid for by us to keep them here.
That's the European Court of Human Rights, which is nothing to do with the EU. Voting No won't change anything regarding that.
This is the big problem, lots of people don't actaully what the EU really is or does and confuse it with other things and attribute all sorts of rubbish as being down to the EU.
PS As for the EU telling the general public which beaches are less hygenic than others...how very dare they?
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Alright Glyn.. Simple terms leave them to sort their own problems and we look after ours. SIMPLES. Better still tell them go Fk off
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And after telling them to Fk off, are you one of those expecting them to bend over backwards and let us have a Free Trade Agreement that's favourable to us and not to them..?
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Why don't you just roll over on your back
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Well that argument has convinced me!
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You vote which way you want and I will vote which way I want, in the end one of us will get our own way.
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Democracy will get its own way, otherwise its worthless.
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Yes I agree but people have aright of choice without ridicule
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Really? I've never heard of that right, what law enshrines that?
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oh we are trying to take the piss. Well my statement is under the law of BALLISM... you want to take it on then do so. I have noted over the last few months you just like to wind people up and talk absolute rubbish but if you are that sad then crack on :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd:
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Wouldn't waste my time Bally!!! Like you say, the amount of people who it appears are prepared to accept this busted flush is laughable!!! A vote to remain in see's the end of this country as we know it!!!!
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It's just soo sad the number of people who haven't got a damn clue about what the EC is and what the EC is not. And you know what's worse? These people are actually allowed to vote. It's downright scary. Just imagine. They could be sat on a jury one day too. Ignorance in all its glory.
BobG
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There are very intelligent people voting to stay in and very intelligent people to come out.
Therefore you are ignoring very intelligent people whichever way you vote.
I'm voting to come out, I've never been on a jury though Bob.
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It's just soo sad the number of people who haven't got a damn clue about what the EC is and what the EC is not. And you know what's worse? These people are actually allowed to vote. It's downright scary. Just imagine. They could be sat on a jury one day too. Ignorance in all its glory.
BobG
What's the EC, Bob? Unless you mean the European Commission? We joined the European Economic Community which became the European Community and then the European Union.
And therein lies the problem. I rather like the idea of being in a Community, less so in a Union whose ultimate destination is a United States of Europe.
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And are clearly wanting somewhere to dump the migrant problem, even threatening us, they will move the passport control to Dover, well lets hope the migrants can swim and dodge the heavy shipping. THAT ALSO may be why there is a big meeting an urgent one at that on migration, the borders are going back up, so who is right them or us.. My dad always said. "Build that channel tunnel and a worse disease than rabies will be in this Country".. Round about the same time Enoch Powell made his speech on the "Streets of London". Two very wise men in my view
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It's just soo sad the number of people who haven't got a damn clue about what the EC is and what the EC is not. And you know what's worse? These people are actually allowed to vote. It's downright scary. Just imagine. They could be sat on a jury one day too. Ignorance in all its glory.
BobG
Isn't it called the European Union now?
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I gave up remembering its manifold names years ago :) Shorthand usually works so for my EC just substitute your personal choice of European acronym :)
Cheers !
Bob
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It does matter though, Bob.
Up until the Maastricht Treaty to the extent I'd given it a lot of thought, I broadly felt it was a good idea. Ever since, I've been an outer.
I'm all for us trading with and having good relations with other European nations. I'm against a superstate or Federal Europe. The latter is what Maastricht aimed to create. The feeble "reforms" which Cameron claims to have achieved do nothing to roll that back.
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My beliefs are based on something entirely different John. I don't care about union or singularity. For me, it's not important. I've described my feelings before, and I'm too tired to do it again now. But it's based on a long historical perspective and the attempt to ensure we learn from history.
Bob
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Right my two-peneth?
Yes = security for peace and for closer working.
No = For cost, Red tape, generic rules for vastly differing countries.
Trade!! no argument, we traded before the EU, we trade outside the EU now? we buy our Japanese cars/bikes our Chinese everything our American everything, even down to the banana boats bringing our fruits.
The threat that the u boats will be patrolling the shipping lanes again and we'll somehow starve outside of Europe is nonsense!
We have thousands of years of being firstly Albion then Brittan and the England we were until the 70's. We have 30yrs of being part of a wider Europe.
The only way I see us staying is though fear and apathy, it takes courage to change so although ill be voting out I fully expect us to lack the appetite for change
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Bally
"Dumping the migrant problem on us."
I despair.
Go and have a look at how many of the recent migrants are in Greece, Italy, Germany and Sweden.
And then have a look at how many are in the UK.
And then come back and tell us if you really think the EU is trying to dump the problem on us.
This is the biggest decision we will ever make. Make it, armed with facts, instead of ill-informed bigotry.
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BST
I don't agree with Bally and you are right to point out that the UK is suffering a lot less from the current migration crisis than many EU states are. The fact that we wisely opted out of Schengen has a lot to do with this.
Equally the Calais migrant camps- which contain very few genuine refugees- are not a consequence of EU membership, more of the French government's failure to get a grip on the situation (I don't think our pusillanimous bunch would do any better, by the way.)
But when the head of Project Fear, aka the British Prime Minister, goes around raising the spectre of migrant camps in southern England if we vote to leave. And when a French minister threatens to rip up the agreement over borders if we leave. And when President Hollande has a touch of the Napoleons and tells us Brits that there will be "consequences" if we vote to leave...
... Well, you can understand that some people might think that the EU was about to dump something nasty on our doorstep.
Maybe Cameron should start setting out a rather more positive case. The above is an object lesson in how negative campaigning and scare tactics can rebound.
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The Prime Minister and his hoppoes (?) are as you say just playing the "frightening Card" be that over immigration or our economic viablilty going forwards - plus any other issues
This is what I expected BUT this vote needs to be got right - it needs positive campaigning - with FACTS being uppermost NOT scare stories
I started this Poll just to see what people thought and I thought we would vote to leave and I probably think now that "inertia" and the "frightened of the future" will result in a "Remain" vote and that could be a shame if it is the wrong decision for us. However I don't think we are going to have the "facts" or what are passed to us as facts are going to be produced any time soon !
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TRB
I very much dislike the Project Fear approach. There is an extremely important positive side to the EU, and the fact that Putin wants nothing more than to see the EU riven by splits and hamstrung should finish the argument before it starts.
But, if we're talking nasty, grubby, gutter politics, which is where we usually end up in this country...
The Leave supporters do need a wake up call. The Leave argument is peppered with an unpleasant xenophobic attitude. It heaps opprobrium on the EU and often on Europeans. It laps up and recycles ignorant and incorrect arguments and fosters a nasty attitude towards Europe.
That's not everyone on the Leave side by the way. But it's a good part of it. Led, most prominently by the two disgusting rags, the Mail and Express. (NB. And it's rich of the Leave side to moan about negativity when these two standard-bearers have been peddling disgusting filth and lies on this topic for a generation. You reap what you sow...)
Now, imagine a world where the Leave side has won. As French President, why would you not say, "f**k this! If the UK wants to tear up co-operation with Europe, let's start by allowing the migrants at Calais onto the first boat and let the British deal with them at their end."
If we want to indulge our Little Englander fantasies, don't blame others for pointing out that there are downsides.
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BST - although I accept your point and also the point of others, may I just state here and now. I am repeating what the Politicians say.. I cannot stand on the white cliffs of Dover waving a Union Jack holding a bulldog on a leash with my fixed bayonet rifle fending off all comers. The Politicians are stating what will or will not happen. I will vote to leave and If my decision and the decision of many others is beaten then so be it, it will be beaten BUT my friend I do have the right to make that choice as you have the same option, there are too many other matters I have to deal with in my life to worry about..This will be last comment on this subject
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TRB
I very much dislike the Project Fear approach. There is an extremely important positive side to the EU, and the fact that Putin wants nothing more than to see the EU riven by splits and hamstrung should finish the argument before it starts.
But, if we're talking nasty, grubby, gutter politics, which is where we usually end up in this country...
The Leave supporters do need a wake up call.
And the remain don't? A vote to stay is a thumbs up to Camoron/Osborne,a big yes and thanks for the way the EU financial institutions have created permanent recession in many Euro countries,a big yes to TTIP and a takeover by the NHS of US private health companies,a goodbye in any of our lifetimes to any reform of the EU(witness Milliband a year ago saying there should be no EU renegotiation and no referendum).What's happened to Greece should have the ex left screaming instead of going all in like BST has done,At least BobG doesn't know what he's voting for
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The Euro is basically a political project to draw the EU closer together, but it is failing because it didn't confront the differences between the economies within the EU.
Ironically a project designed to bring the EU closer together has pushed it further apart. I can't be certain of this, but I have a feeling that had the Euro been strangled at birth, we might not be having a referendum this year.
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The fact Murdoch has thrown himself behind the Leave camp tells me nothing good will come of us leaving.
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I shall be voting to leave, I made my mind up years ago, I vowed if we ever had a vote I would vote to leave, this was well before the migrant crisis. I'm sick to death of powers being eroded from our Country by the European Parliament, I don't agree that The UK should have contributed to the bailout of Greece, the Germans hold too much power in that organisation, aided and abetted by France. The sooner we are out the better in my opinion
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Interesting development:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35749837
Turkey has got the EU by the short and curlies over this. I've always had quite an admiration for Turkey and the way it maintained its status as a Secular state. However the current President shows some of the same megalomaniac tendencies as friend Putin, and seems to have a worryingly pro-Islamist agenda.
I also have my suspicions about the Turkish government turning a blind eye to people smugglers. After all, they don't seem slow to crack down on things they don't like- eg awkward opposition newspapers. Until the last 12 months much of the migrant traffic has come from North Africa into Italy. We start to get a handle on that and suddenly a huge route opens up from Turkey to Greece. Coincidence? Maybe, but as you can see, it gives the Turkish government leverage and they are using it to the full extent.
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I don't know where you get the idea from Yargo that I don't know what I'm voting for. Far from it. I am extremelty well informed having a naturally inqusitive mind and a decent memory that stretches back decades. If you had bothered to read what I wrote, rather than what you wanted to think I wrote, you would have seen that none of this current frenzy about immigration, red tape and Schengen is important in the decision I have come to. I have a different rock upon which my thinking is based: it takes a long historical view and it seeks to learn from history.
There. That clear enough for you now?
BobG
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Just an update ... if you are voting in the Poll please cast your vote NOT for your personal preference BUT the way you think we will ultimately vote as a Nation
The Poll is showing a gradual lowering of the "Remain" vote although it still is north of 60% but I accept it is a non scientific way to "judge" the end result but hey the General Election Polls were not exactly accurate either were they ?
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Well, it looks like Boris's decision to support Leave has been successful.
Not successful in that it means Leave will win. That was never the aim.
Successful in cementing him as dead cert to be the next Tory leader.
Look at the figures at the bottom of page 3 here. Tory party members are in favour of leaving by 2:1. But all the main Cabinet front runners for the leadership (Osborne, May, Hammond) are on the Stay side.
That is why Johnson is campaigning for Leave. He doesn't give a shit whether we stay or leave, or what the consequences for the country would be. He cares, as he's always cared, only about his own career aim. Which is to be PM.
He scares the living Bejaysus out of me.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/lgyac6br0r/InternalResults_160302_ConservativePartyMemberPolls_W.pdf
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My beliefs are based on something entirely different John. I don't care about union or singularity.I don't know where you get the idea from Yargo that I don't know what I'm voting for. Far from it. I am extremelty well informed having a naturally inqusitive mind and a decent memory that stretches back decades. If you had bothered to read what I wrote, rather than what you wanted to think I wrote, you would have seen that none of this current frenzy about immigration, red tape and Schengen is important in the decision I have come to. I have a different rock upon which my thinking is based: it takes a long historical view and it seeks to learn from history.
There. That clear enough for you now?
BobG
Clear as mud,the vote is for Union or not,then again you probably refer to the UN as League of Nations
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Don't know where you got that from either mate. The League of Nations died in 1939. Or didn't you know?
Cheers
BobG
PS Those who don't need things spelled out for them like a child know what I mean. I've spelled it out in the past for everyone else. Try to keep up.
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Just dipped below 60 % then ...
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Latest "row" over the Pamphlet I see. Used Taxpayers money for the mailshot we are all going to get and used 9.3 million quid which incidentally is of itself more than the 7 million allocated to each side
It is said Cameron for the Public to fully understand what is at stake and yet I have seen photos of it on BBC and one of the pages shows a shopping basket and part of the text says something like " you will be risking rising food prices"
SORRY but to me that is not a FACT it is supposition.
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As per the suggestion of a prominent Eurosceptic I shall be returning mine to the Prime Minister. I can't think of a better way of spending the cost of a 2nd class stamp.
I may well be tempted to suggest where he might stuff his propaganda.
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As per the suggestion of a prominent Eurosceptic I shall be returning mine to the Prime Minister. I can't think of a better way of spending the cost of a 2nd class stamp.
I may well be tempted to suggest where he might stuff his propaganda.
What a great idea that is - sending it back to him that is
I too would like to tell him where to shove his propaganda AS LONG as I don't have to take a proper gander to confirm where he has put it !
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Jeremy Hunt or Liz Truss would willingly do that for you Wolfy. 😉
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Jeremy Hunt or Liz Truss would willingly do that for you Wolfy. 😉
I imagine both of them would already be where you would like him to shove it!
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Just short of 100 Votes in and a (non Technical) 58.8 % think we will vote to stay and 41.2% think we will vote to stay
If you wish to add your vote please do - but remember we are looking for what you think WE as a Nation will vote not what you will personally vote for