Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on March 19, 2016, 12:30:41 am
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Come to summat hasn't it, when one of the more right wing Cabinet ministers in living memory has resigned in protest at Osborne cutting welfare for the disabled whilst giving away Capital Gains Tax cuts to the very richest.
So now, Jeremy Corbyn. You have a Tory party tearing itself apart over Europe. The viciousness of Osbornenomics laid bare by IDS. The steam running out of what very tepid growth we had over the past couple of years.
You couldn't wish for more propitious circumstances. If you don't take Labour into a 10 point lead over the next 6 months, you know what the reason will be. And the solution.
EDIT:
f**king Hell! How about this for a hand grenade from IDS's resignation letter?
"I am unable to watch passively whilst certain policies are enacted in order to meet the fiscal self imposed restraints that I believe are more and more perceived as distinctly political rather than in the national economic interest."
Exactly what I have been saying for 6 years. There is no economic need for Austerity. It is ALL about politics. Osborne has a ignored the overwhelming majority of economic theory and evidence by placing totally unnecessary emphasis on driving down the deficit. And he has done it for political reasons. To paint himself as the hard-headed grown-up and Labour as profligate.
And now, even IDS is calling him out on that lie.
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Osbourne shouldn't be chancellor, he is guessing at the job. To be chancellor you should be qualified in balancing books, preferably running a company.
They get on about unskilled workers, but the government itself is unskilled, Osbourne doesn't have the experience, nous or ability to run a countries economy.
We are a country run by public schoolboys, who haven't had any life experience, how can they run the country properly if they don't know the price of things, or even have an idea of the average life in their country?.
The bankers destroyed our economy, so what do they do?, go after the sick and disabled, the normal guy getting up day after day for a wage that just about keeps his family living. Why are they so mean that they won't print money to give each family help, quatative easing is needed, they won't do this because they hate their own people, they don't want to see their people live comfortably!.
They are the most vindictive and cruel government in recent times. IDS i can't believe he has turned against them, he obviously has morals i didn't think he possessed, after his fist pumping display not so long ago.
Even the puppet gets fed up it seems, people have died under his leadership of routing the disabled, people have taken their own lives because of the pressure.
Now even Cameron's government are turning against him, because they realise it isn't for the countries good, it's vindictive attacking people are struggling as it is.
I was reading something other day, the actual number of people falsely claiming disability is something like 0.6%. Those who voted this shower in should be angry, because they lied to get in power, and have lived upto none of what they said they would do!.
The divide is only getting bigger, now Jeremy Corbyn needs to show the country he is a much better alternative, and keep bringning up, why they are failing every man woman and child in this country!.
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Very interesting! My first thought was that this was another Westland, but that was more about Michael Heseltine's ambition to become PM. IDS has had his turn at being leader and wasn't very good at it.
It might, of course, have a similar outcome as Westland. Heseltine's main adversary in Cabinet, Leon Brittan, had to go, and the focus will be on Osborne now. But I think he will survive for now- to an extent Brittan was expendable in the way that Osborne isn't. And Brittan was only a proxy for Heseltine's real target, which was Maggie herself.
IDS and Osborne have been at loggerheads for some time. Whether you agree with his approach or not, IDS sees welfare reform as a project. Osborne sees the welfare budget as something that needs to be brought under control. It's very much long term versus short term views of the world.
Also I think two things tipped the balance. IDS felt he'd been pressed to announce the changes to PIPs early - ie before all the consultations had been completed - to fit in with the Budget timescales. Then once the shit hit the fan, the DWP was forced to defend changes that look really bad (indefensible, to use IDS's own word) on their own but could possibly have been sold as part of a wider package. Secondly, I think IDS knew that if we vote to stay in the EU he would have been out. Osborne would have demanded his head and Cameron would have agreed.
Looked at in that context, it is a perfectly understandable resignation, and it is done to cause maximum political damage to Osborne. I wouldn't now wager a bent fiver on his chances of being the next Tory leader.
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IDS hasn't suddenly found a consience, this is a calculated move to benifit IDS, nothing to do with the disabled, brexit or the well being of the Country, it's everything to do with IDS, the selfish bas**rd!
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But it doesn't benefit him, Filo. You are thinking he is acting like Heseltine over Westland, whose resignation was the opening shot in his bid to become Tory leader. IDS has had his go at being leader. Nor do I believe he's some sort of stalking horse for Boris. I don't even think the two are particularly close.
This has far more to do with it, IMO.
http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/blog/universal-credits-future-depends-on-whether-its-the-economics-or-the-politics-that-comes-first-for-the-treasury/
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This time the Election manifesto as it has been suggested has been busted, the previous Election on their manifesto was a promise not to touch pensions both Company and State using the RPI instead of CPI. They reneged on that and stated that it was only on the manifesto, they had since found need to change their plans, well they have done it again. Regarding disability just think back about three year when they just scrapped Incapacity Benefit then replaced it with the same thing under another name that you could not have for more than two years and then took that away..... People were still too ill to work in some cases,and then found themselves loosing a few hundred pounds a month and still no work. Never liked IDS he was a mouth piece. BUT I CERTAINLY ADMIRE HIM TODAY. A budget for the rich and also a budget to stay in the EU
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IDS hasn't suddenly found a consience, this is a calculated move to benifit IDS, nothing to do with the disabled, brexit or the well being of the Country, it's everything to do with IDS, the selfish bas**rd!
This. Absolutely, totally this.
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TRB
I think you are right that IDS was driven by a sense of purpose to revise welfare for what he saw as noble reasons. I happen to think that his basic premise [1] is bullshit, but I can appreciate that IDS has a political philosophy and a sense of duty to the nation [2].
Osborne, by contrast is in this game for no-one other than Osborne. That quote from IDS's resignation letter is bang on the money. Osborne does not take economic decisions in the national interest. He takes them in the political interest of Cameron and Osborne. If he's now being called out on Austerity by someone as right wing as IDS, maybe this is a game changer?
[1] He, like so many on the Right, believes that societal problems are Supply Side driven. That there is a problem with the nation's ability to supply workers who are sufficiently motivated and capable. It's all down to welfare or shit teachers or morally feckless individuals who want to slack off. Personally, I'm a Demand Side person. I believe that if the demand for people's efforts was there, supplying satisfying and well-rewarded jobs, the welfare problem would disappear overnight. The 1930-40s provides the evidence. In the Great Depression, millions were out of work because there were no jobs. And the Right castigated them for being feckless and responsible for their own idleness. When WWII broke and we needed double shifts down the pit and in the powder works, unemployment vanished. It would be the same today.
[2] Mind, I'm not going to get too dewy eyed of IDS's principles. He has been reprimanded publicly numerous times by the Office Fir National Statistics for brazenly lying in press releases purporting to show how well his welfare reforms were working. These principles of his only extend so far. They don't extend as far as accepting when his policies have actively f**kex up 100s of thousands of lives, so he lies blatantly to the press and has to be slapped down by the people who are there to be the honest brokers. In that sense, IDS is one of the most corrosive of politicians. One of the ones who justifies the public belief that they are all untrustworthy chancers. And in that sense, we're well shut of him.
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It's probably true that IDS has done this forpolitical as well as moral reasons.
He's lit the blue touch paper which will hopefully lead to this immoral gang tearing itself apart over this and Europe.
Corbyn needs to be all over this like a cheap suit.
Should be an interesting watch.
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This is a historic chance for Labour. Once a generation does a party rip itself apart like the Tories are starting to do.
No excuses. If Labour f**k this up and we end up with PM Boris in 2020, this will be a failure of monumental proportions.
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The Tories are just taking sides over Brexit and can smell Cameron's blood should we vote to leave. On a side note (but related to Tommy Toes' comments), I'm not a fan of Corbyn but I particularly enjoyed his speech in response to the budget. He's been quick here as well: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/iain-duncan-smith-resignation-jeremy-corbyn-calls-for-george-osborne-to-go-as-well-over-disability-a6940551.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/iain-duncan-smith-resignation-jeremy-corbyn-calls-for-george-osborne-to-go-as-well-over-disability-a6940551.html)
Maybe both Corbyn and the Labour party have finally woken up. Might be interesting times ahead though the Tories have plenty of time to regroup and be nice to everyone again in time for the next election. The electorate can be quite a forgetful bunch, especially after a pre-election budget full of sweeteners.
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That didn't take long. And it's someone who supports Cameron and wants us to remain in Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35850932 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35850932)
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It is worth remembering that the Tories won the GE about a year after Westland and also won a couple of years after axing Thatcher. These things can be ridden out, particularly when the Opposition hasn't got its ducks in line.
Peter Oborne gives his near-namesake George a real kicking in the Fail today. So a right wing Cabinet minister and a right wing columnist!
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That didn't take long. And it's someone who supports Cameron and wants us to remain in Europe.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35850932 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35850932)
No doubt this one will just be an arse licker, to see out Gideons plans
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I don't doubt that for a single second, Filo.
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Massive missed opportunity. He could have appointed Priti Patel, who is telegenic, female and crucially an Outer. That could have placated the Eurosceptics a bit, at least till after the Referendum.
As it is, it will fuel the idea that Cameron is ready to dump the outers afterwards - assuming he wins.
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I think that somebody somewhere has suggested that the Tories need to get back to a bit of "compassionate conservatism", so bringing someone in who advocates the death penalty probably doesn't fit in with that. That and the fact that she's challenged/undermined Cameron in recent times. Cameron's coasting now - just one more triumph (in this case, winning the Brexit vote) and he'll be done/gone. He just wants an easy(ish) ride.
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I watched Corbyns response to the budget.He attacked Osborne with the failed failed failed on everything, a full bloodied attack.His backbenchers were sat in silence no cheering or anything.Are they the opposition party or what, i thought their silence was disgusting and they should start pulling together.
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This is nothing like Westland. Heseltine resigned because deals were being done by Thatcher and her cronies behind his back in the area for which he was the Secretary of State. Any Minister with any self-respect would resign in those circumstances.
This isn't the case with IDS. Many of the measures he's suddenly developed a 'conscience' about were announced by...IDS. As the Treasury and the DWP would have worked together to work out the details of the announced measures well in advance of the Budget his apparent surprise about them just doesn't wash - if he was prepared to resign over them he would have warned Osborne and Cameron well before the Budget speech and he should have resigned on the day they were announced, not a few days later. If just doesn't smell right.
My own opinion is that IDS' reasons are just a smokescreen, as he's never shown any compunction before about putting the boot into the vulnerable. I believe that due to his Brexit leanings he knew he was toast as far as his future with Cameron was concerned and he's resigned to throw in his lot with Boris whilst trying to appear 'principled' and at the same time sticking the knife into Cameron and Osborne.
Also the fact that his Department has yet again just lost the legal case for refusing to release information requested through an FOI - and which will almost certainly show him up as having lied about the progress of the implementation of the Universal Credit - could well have been a factor in his decision and its timing.
IDS has been using the disabled as a political football for ages now. All that's happened is that half time has been and gone and he's changed ends and is now kicking them in the other direction. I don't believe he has any principles about this at all, it's all just a means to an end.
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Though Labour is every bit the party divided (which might explain the silence), I actually prefer the HoP minus the braying and hooting. It's much less distracting and, dare I say it, respectful to the person who's talking.
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I watched Corbyns response to the budget.He attacked Osborne with the failed failed failed on everything, a full bloodied attack.His backbenchers were sat in silence no cheering or anything.Are they the opposition party or what, i thought their silence was disgusting and they should start pulling together.
The thing is that a lot of the Labour backbenchers see Corbyn as a liability who will lose them an election in 2020 that they should be capable of winning. However those things tend to have a "self-fulfilling" edge to them. I'm sure plenty of people noticed the lack of support and probably didn't think much of the Opposition as a result.
I actually think Corbyn's had a pretty good week. Many of his criticisms of the Budget were echoed elsewhere and he came over as sensible and measured on the disability cuts- it would have been easy for him to overplay his hand.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35855616
Nowt like telling it like it is, eh?
The whole Austerity line has been fantastically successful for Osborne and Cameron in terms of setting the political agenda. But it was always based on sham economics and the premise that the poorest would suffer.
When someone as far to the Right as IDS starts calling them out as starkly as he did this morning, the game is up. We're moving into post-Osborne/Austerity mania territory
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Corbyn needs to stick to his principles, you cannot try to be something you are not just to try and get yourself elected, people aren't stupid they see through false people most of the time.
And that's what's happening now, people who voted for the conservatives, are realising they made a major mistake, the conservatives fooled a lot of people.
Corbyn needs to have solutions to every problem, he needs to show despite his eccentricities he is capable of running the country, and that he see'e each person in the country as equal, whether they have money or not.
He has to make it known he would run a fairer system, that he would prioritise his own people over other countries.
He needs to keep challenging and pick away at the governments 'Many scabs' that are forming. Labour need to use the time out of government to change, because the way they have done things in the past have similarities with this lot.
Mps need to start serving their people, and not getting into politics for their own good. Rather than labour run communities doing everything they are told, cutting funding to this that and the other, they need to rebel against them at every opportunity!.
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By the way, this is Stephen Crabb
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11768/stephen_crabb/preseli_pembrokeshire/votes
Check out the section on his voting record on Welfare and Benefits and you can see why Gideon and Cameron have parachuted him in. I understand he voted FOR the £30 a week cuts for the disabled. Another sock puppet to face up their agenda, like Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan.
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And that's what's happening now, people who voted for the conservatives, are realising they made a major mistake, the conservatives fooled a lot of people.
I tend NOT to post on the Political threads as if I ever get started I simply would never stop arguing and replying etc. The system in this Country is WRONG on almost every level. So :
My only comment on this thread is this - (and it is contentious) the VAST majority who vote Conservative now are voting for the wrong Party whether that be the last Election or the previous one or the next one.
The Conservatives should ONLY appeal (be voted for that is) by about 10% of the Electorate and the rest of us (the remaining 90%) should never Vote for them because we are The Serfs and they are the Barons - twas ever thus
That's my lot - please feel free to question my "estimates" of 10/90 as it may be erroneous and should possibly by 5/95 ?
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You're forgetting the people who think they're Barons when they are in fact serfs who are being fooled into thinking that way.
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By the way, this is Stephen Crabb
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/11768/stephen_crabb/preseli_pembrokeshire/votes
Check out the section on his voting record on Welfare and Benefits and you can see why Gideon and Cameron have parachuted him in. I understand he voted FOR the £30 a week cuts for the disabled. Another sock puppet to face up their agenda, like Amber Rudd and Nicky Morgan.
I'm not defending him and I agree that there are plenty of Yes Men and Yes Women in Cameron's cabinet. However he has been a member of the Government (as a whip or a minister) since 2010. So unless he had an IDS moment and decided to resign he was always going to vote for Government policy.
Like it or not, that's how Collective Responsibility works.
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Collective Responsibility only applies to the Cabinet...
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You're not wrong John.
I think in the future there will be more and more coalition governments as in other countries.
It's tragic that the Tories have a majority this time. At least the Lib Dems had some influence on policy during the last government and could question some of the more draconian ideas these people come up with.
As much as I would like it I don't think Corbyn can get elected as it stands. It would take a massive sea change in public thinking.
He needs to not only get his party behind him but encourage other minority groups to buy into his ideas for a fairer, anti austerity approach. To do this he needs to distance himself from the Socialist Worker/Marxist image he has, as people are still frightened of the 'Reds under the bed', and concentrate on his ideas and plans which if you just listen and investigate, make complete sense, including Trident. This is why he came from nowhere and has the support of tens of thousands of people who previously had little interest in politics.
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Collective Responsibility only applies to the Cabinet...
It doesn't, Glyn. It applies to the whole of the Government's "Payroll Vote." It goes beyond departmental ministers and whips, and extends to Parliamentary Private Secretaries, who are unpaid "bag-carriers" for senior ministers.
Only on declared "Free Votes" are ministers (or shadows) given freedom to depart the official line. Remember the vote on air strikes in Syria? Corbyn had to give his MPs a free vote or many shadow ministers would have resigned.
Dem's da rules...
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Collective Responsibility only applies to the Cabinet...
It doesn't, Glyn. It applies to the whole of the Government's "Payroll Vote." It goes beyond departmental ministers and whips, and extends to Parliamentary Private Secretaries, who are unpaid "bag-carriers" for senior ministers.
Only on declared "Free Votes" are ministers (or shadows) given freedom to depart the official line. Remember the vote on air strikes in Syria? Corbyn had to give his MPs a free vote or many shadow ministers would have resigned.
Dem's da rules...
You're talking about the whip system when it comes to 'Free Votes', not Collective Responsibility, which is something else.
Collective Responsibility can only be taken by those who make the decisions and formulate policy ie the Cabinet. Nobody outside of the Cabinet can take any Collective Responsibility for decision-making that they were not part of. The members of the Government outside the Cabinet only carry responsibility for whatever they themselves are in charge of, nothing else. They are expected to toe the Cabinet line (along with members of the same party who are not in the Government) through the whip system, but they would not be responsible for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_collective_responsibility
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Whipping applies to members of a party who do not hold ministerial or shadow portfolios.
If a minister, shadow minister / spokesman or even a PPS votes against the policy of the Front Bench he resigns- or is sacked if he doesn't.
http://www.tutor2u.net/politics/blog/revision-update-executive-collective-individual-ministerial-responsibility
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Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?
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Seems Osborne has ducked the UQ today and has sent a patsy. The Government is there for the taking and Labour seem to be doing a good job of keeping the pressure on them (not as much as the Tories are however) - proof will be in the pudding later on today I suppose.
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Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?
I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.
There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.
If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.
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Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?
I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.
There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.
If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.
Not the only reason but I aint lining up with Cameron/Sturgeon
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Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?
I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.
There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.
If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.
Not the only reason but I aint lining up with Cameron/Sturgeon
Then you are lining up with Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. Have a think about it.
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Great to see the tories at each others throat and they are in shit this side of the referendum,Cameron has one thing on his side,vote remain,he gets that and he banks loads of political credit,moves Osborne to another department to rebuild his political career for the next two years.Vote leave and Cameron/Osborne are gone in days if not hours and the tories split massively.Surely whoever takes over would have to call an autumn general election to seek electoral mandate over Britain's future dealings with EU,what you going to do vote the way that will see the end of Cameron or you going to send him a liferaft?
I agree with you that in the (IMO unlikely) event of a vote to leave the EU that Cameron would probably have to resign. Osborne's chances of succeding him would be dead in the water. However I don't think they would be impelled to call a GE.
There are recent precedents for not calling a GE following a change of Prime Minister. In 1990, when Thatcher was deposed and replaced by Major. And in 2007 when Blair resigned and was replaced by Brown. Also the Fixed Parliaments Act, passed by the Coalition, makes it difficult to call an early election, though not impossible.
If you are voting for Brexit because you want a change in the complexion of the Government, I think you will be disappointed.
Not the only reason but I aint lining up with Cameron/Sturgeon
Then you are lining up with Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. Have a think about it.
We are all Cameronistas now!
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
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Corbyn needs to stick to his principles, you cannot try to be something you are not just to try and get yourself elected, people aren't stupid they see through false people most of the time.
And that's what's happening now, people who voted for the conservatives, are realising they made a major mistake, the conservatives fooled a lot of people.
Corbyn needs to have solutions to every problem, he needs to show despite his eccentricities he is capable of running the country, and that he see'e each person in the country as equal, whether they have money or not.
He has to make it known he would run a fairer system, that he would prioritise his own people over other countries.
He needs to keep challenging and pick away at the governments 'Many scabs' that are forming. Labour need to use the time out of government to change, because the way they have done things in the past have similarities with this lot.
Mps need to start serving their people, and not getting into politics for their own good. Rather than labour run communities doing everything they are told, cutting funding to this that and the other, they need to rebel against them at every opportunity!.
Come on Sammy, which one is it?
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
Blatant scaremongering
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The sad thing is that there are thousands and thousands of working class people who actually vote for them and still think they are the best party to be in government.
Very sad.
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
Blatant scaremongering
Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
Blatant scaremongering
Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?
Because they are part of the in campaign
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The sad thing is that there are thousands millions and thousands millions of working class people who actually vote for them and still think they are the best party to be in government.
Very sad.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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This is the best political theatre since Gladstone walked the stump in Midlothian! It's brilliant :)
A right wing Tory government brought low by an even more right wing Conservative Ministerial resignation. Fighting breaking out on the green benches; personal attacks within the Tory party by the thousand getting cruder by the day; a neutered opposition talking to the wind and a nation desperate for somebody half way sensible, half way reasonable to shoot the lot of them.
If you wrote a novel with that as the plot it'd never see the light of day. But here it is :) And God knows where it's going to end. Despite my liking for some of JC's thoughts, my personal hope is he gets knifed in the back pdq and an effective opposition turns up smartish.
BobG
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I'm kicking myself for not seeing this scenario coming. Last year, Osborne published a Budget that had totally unrealisable cuts planned up to 2020. He did it because he thought he would never have to implement them. He was not expecting a majority. He did it to hit Labour with the Profligate stick and he was hoping for, at best, another LD coalition. After which, the cuts could be quietly ditched.
I'd forgotten all that in the run up to the Budget. He's had to ram this PIP issue through to try to make his plan for deficit reduction add up. And now it's collapsing. And Osborne is a busted flush. His own side is now openly kicking against the insanity of the fiscal plans. But his entire credibility is predicated on seeing them through.
I had always got Osborne down as one of the great political manoeuvrers. But I suspect he's run off the edge of the cliff this time. I think he will not survive the summer as Chancellor.
Either we vote to leave the EU. In which case, he's into political oblivion. Or we don't, and he is knifed in a re-shuffle.
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Genius by the way.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2016/mar/20/martin-rowson-resignation-iain-duncan-smith-cartoon
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Corbyn needs to stick to his principles, you cannot try to be something you are not just to try and get yourself elected, people aren't stupid they see through false people most of the time.
And that's what's happening now, people who voted for the conservatives, are realising they made a major mistake, the conservatives fooled a lot of people.
Corbyn needs to have solutions to every problem, he needs to show despite his eccentricities he is capable of running the country, and that he see'e each person in the country as equal, whether they have money or not.
He has to make it known he would run a fairer system, that he would prioritise his own people over other countries.
He needs to keep challenging and pick away at the governments 'Many scabs' that are forming. Labour need to use the time out of government to change, because the way they have done things in the past have similarities with this lot.
Mps need to start serving their people, and not getting into politics for their own good. Rather than labour run communities doing everything they are told, cutting funding to this that and the other, they need to rebel against them at every opportunity!.
Come on Sammy, which one is it?
Both, enough people did get fooled by them unfortunately, they fooled enough to get elected!.
And also some who voted for them are probably protecting themselves because they are doing well in life. The conservatives look after those people at the exclusion of the struggling, whereas they should be helping both.
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I refer the Honourable Gentleman to the Post I made some time earlier in this Thread (#24)
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I'm kicking myself for not seeing this scenario coming. Last year, Osborne published a Budget that had totally unrealisable cuts planned up to 2020. He did it because he thought he would never have to implement them. He was not expecting a majority. He did it to hit Labour with the Profligate stick and he was hoping for, at best, another LD coalition. After which, the cuts could be quietly ditched.
I'd forgotten all that in the run up to the Budget. He's had to ram this PIP issue through to try to make his plan for deficit reduction add up. And now it's collapsing. And Osborne is a busted flush. His own side is now openly kicking against the insanity of the fiscal plans. But his entire credibility is predicated on seeing them through.
I had always got Osborne down as one of the great political manoeuvrers. But I suspect he's run off the edge of the cliff this time. I think he will not survive the summer as Chancellor.
Either we vote to leave the EU. In which case, he's into political oblivion. Or we don't, and he is knifed in a re-shuffle.
I doubt Osborne will be sacked, but he'll probably be moved to the Foreign Office. He'll be a busted flush though.
Interesting what you say about last year's Budget and expecting to be in Coalition. The same could probably be said about Cameron's pledge of an EU Referendum.
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
Blatant scaremongering
Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?
Because they are part of the in campaign
I'll ask again then, why would they be part of the In campaign, and therefore scaremonger?
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
Blatant scaremongering
Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?
Because they are part of the in campaign
I'll ask again then, why would they be part of the In campaign, and therefore scaremonger?
To try and persuede people to vote to stay in
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Yes, but why are they so firmly entrenched in the remain camp?
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The CBI represents big business and they are happier dealing with the amount of regulation that goes hand in hand with the EU and the single market. Also a lot of CBI members do a lot of business with EU countries.
It tends to be SMEs and firms who do a lot of business outside the EU who chafe at EU regulations. Remember that anything they manufacture for sale and export has to conform to EU directives, even if it is sold outside the EU. If Cameron had been sincere about reform, that was a prime area to be addressed.
Of course one way to influence EU regulations is via lobbying and Big Business is able to afford this. On the whole, SMEs are not. Sometimes of course regulations can be drafted in a way that disadvantage competitors, something Big Business is acutely aware of.
In that context, it's no surprise that the CBI wants to stay in and is keen to play up the possible risks of leaving. But even their own report admits the headline figures quoted are worst case scenario.
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
Blatant scaremongering
Why would the CBI want to scaremonger?
Because they are part of the in campaign
I'll ask again then, why would they be part of the In campaign, and therefore scaremonger?
To try and persuede people to vote to stay in
I'll try again. Why would the CBI want people to vote to stay in?
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The CBI represents big business and they are happier dealing with the amount of regulation that goes hand in hand with the EU and the single market. Also a lot of CBI members do a lot of business with EU countries.
It tends to be SMEs and firms who do a lot of business outside the EU who chafe at EU regulations. Remember that anything they manufacture for sale and export has to conform to EU directives, even if it is sold outside the EU. If Cameron had been sincere about reform, that was a prime area to be addressed.
Of course one way to influence EU regulations is via lobbying and Big Business is able to afford this. On the whole, SMEs are not. Sometimes of course regulations can be drafted in a way that disadvantage competitors, something Big Business is acutely aware of.
In that context, it's no surprise that the CBI wants to stay in and is keen to play up the possible risks of leaving. But even their own report admits the headline figures quoted are worst case scenario.
That's all very well, but even if we weren't in the EU, the SMEs will still have British standards to conform to, that level of regulation ain't going to disappear.
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TRB
"The CBI represents big business and they are happier dealing with the amount of regulation that goes hand in hand with the EU and the single market."
But surely the Out campaign aren't suggesting that we don't stay part of the Single Market?
In which case, where is the benefit from leaving?
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The point I was making was this. If you are a member of the EU everything you produce is subject to EU regulations. If you trade with the EU Single Market then what you sell into that market has to comply with EU regulations.
However if you merely trade with the EU then items you produce for other markets do not have to comply with EU regulations.
It seems a point of semantics but it is very significant for companies that do a lot of their business outside the EU.
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OK. Fair point TRB. Apologies for my misunderstanding.
But the question then is: is the benefit to that cohort of small companies of such a magnitude that it outweighs the inevitable problems for everyone else, while we negotiate our position vis-a-vis trade with the EU following a Leave vote?
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I'm kicking myself for not seeing this scenario coming. Last year, Osborne published a Budget that had totally unrealisable cuts planned up to 2020. He did it because he thought he would never have to implement them. He was not expecting a majority. He did it to hit Labour with the Profligate stick and he was hoping for, at best, another LD coalition. After which, the cuts could be quietly ditched.
I'd forgotten all that in the run up to the Budget. He's had to ram this PIP issue through to try to make his plan for deficit reduction add up. And now it's collapsing. And Osborne is a busted flush. His own side is now openly kicking against the insanity of the fiscal plans. But his entire credibility is predicated on seeing them through.
I had always got Osborne down as one of the great political manoeuvrers. But I suspect he's run off the edge of the cliff this time. I think he will not survive the summer as Chancellor.
Either we vote to leave the EU. In which case, he's into political oblivion. Or we don't, and he is knifed in a re-shuffle.
Blimey Billy has your account been hacked - or the ghost of Mad Mick addled your brain?
For years you have been saying that the Tory Party have an ideological opposition to the Welfare State and all it stands for, the richest supporting the poorest through taxes, and wish to do away with it. Thus to keep taxes low and the rich, richer. This is a viewpoint I concur with 100%.
Now you are saying that the first opportunity they had to implement this policy whilst in government - they didn't really believe it!!! They are really nice and cuddly and have fooled us all with the pretendy austerity measures!!! Yeah right.
Osborne belives it all right, as do Cameron and Duncan Smith. If there weren't a referendum on the EU coming up he would have been right behind these cuts - its only the opportunity to stick one into Cameron and Osborne to be seen as a 'nice' man and thus persuade us to listen to and vote his way in June - that he has gone. Not that he could stay after June.
OK, the PIP cuts may not have been as severe last week if his economic plans had produced the results he has been saying they would for 6 years, but now they too are being seen for the economic madness that people (including you) have said they were. But they would have been there. The Tories aim to break up the Welfare State so that people will have the services they can pay for. They wish to take us back to a time when Britain was Great with low taxes. The 18th Century.
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Wilts
You're misreading me. I'm not talking about the ideological drive. Osborne (and he's the driver here - Cameron is just the Front of House face) does have a general ideological leaning towards smaller state. No question of that.
But it's entirely secondary to his position as a political animal. Neither he nor Cameron are out and out ideologues. They are primarily and ruthlessly in the business of power. There's not a policy or a stance that they won't pick up, run with and drop if it gives them a political advantage. Osborne was quite brilliant in effectively running a Keynesian stimulus for 18 months before the last Election, precisely at the time that Labour had given up making the case. f**king genius. Genuine political genius.
The two of them actually remind me of Harold Wilson. Holding together a fractious party. Being prepared to tack one way then another. Tacticians rather than ideological strategists.
The PIP shambles fits in totally with that. Osborne, brilliantly, won the Election by convincing enough idiots that Austerity was the way forward and that Labour couldn't be trusted. He upped the ante to ridiculous levels with his aim of getting Govt spending down to 35% by 2020. But he never expected to be able to implement that because no-one expected them to be so successful last May.
I don't doubt that he would like to see spending at those levels. As would his party. It's in their blood. But equally, the Party realises that there is a massive potential electoral price to pay for being so harsh, once the Electorate sees what it means in reality. So they've blinked on this one.
It's like I say about Corbyn. Politics is the art of the possible. The Tories want to destroy the Welfare State. But that is a generation-long job, not a 2 Parliament job. For Osborne, it was always about making sure that he was the standard bearer for the second half of the job from 2020 onwards. And he DID win the 2015 Election, no question. But to do so, he's painted himself into a corner of having to rush the job. And allowing IDS to play this role in bringing him down. And yes, I'm sure that IDS has other agendas. But playing the role that he has done only works if there is a grain of believable truth in the act. I do actually believe that he is sincere in believing that he is the champion of those in welfare. Of course he is not resigning BECAUSE of that belief. He resigned to terminally wound Osborne, whom he detests. But it helps him to play the role.
From a neutral standpoint, if people's lives weren't affected, it's a thoroughly absorbing thing to watch.
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I'll just leave this here: http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK (http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-europe-cbi-idUKKCN0WN0IK)
Of course the CBI have been asked before,only 10% thought Britain shouldnt join the Euro
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/1764/Attitudes-Towards-EMU-Survey-of-CBI-Members.aspx (https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/1764/Attitudes-Towards-EMU-Survey-of-CBI-Members.aspx)
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That's a very particular way of interpreting those numbers Yargo.
Me, I look at them and see 69% saying that we should not be committing at all, or at least until we see, a decade or so later, how things are going.
In any case, the survey was pointless. The pros and cons of the Euro are about its effects on macroeconomics. There is no reason why a business leader should be any more clues up about the subtleties of macroeconomic theory than me and thee. That was demonstrated conclusively in the response of many business leaders to the whole Austerity debate.
Different issue when we are talking about a report by experts on the topic of the effect on business of access to the single market.
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Latest polls (for what they're worth) show Corbyn narrowly ahead of the bacon-botherer, whereas the Tories are only narrowly ahead of Labour. Margins are getting finer, folks: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/osborne-s-ratings-plunge-after-budget-and-corbyn-is-more-popular-than-pm-a3210916.html
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After all the lip service by IDS about an unfair budget, he then voted for it!
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MM
By this time in the previous electoral cycle, Labour had been ahead in the polls for 4 months. That meant nothing when the Election came around 4 years later.
As regards Corbyn's ratings relative to Cameron, that is utterly irrelevant. Cameron won't be his opponent in 2020. So Cameron's unpopularity doesn't mean anything.
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This might help Labour surge into the lead (or it might go down. *ahem*):
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeTVRlAWsAAifbV.jpg)
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BST, I'm well aware that there is a long way to go to 2020, and Cameron won't be the opposition. However, it does show that maybe Corbyn isn't quite as unelectable as some might think. He's eminently more electable than Osborne ever will be ever again, which means the most likely candidate to face him, Brexit depending, is probably Boris. Who himself has been mauled in the press recently.
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Not sure I can believe that MM. I wish I could. But the power of the press and even the Tory party hasn't been unleashed on Corbyn yet. And it won't be for a while yet. Don't forget the Labour Party did exactly the same thing with IDS when he was leader of the Conservatives. Corbyn is meat and drink for the Tory Party. They desparately want him to stay in the job. Because then he will be easy to toast in 2 and 3 years time. Any half way decent middle of the road Labour leader would be much harder to crisp up.
Corbyn, sad to say, is simply not the man. We can see that now. Where is the opposition in all this Tory infighting? Nuff said. He's a busted flush already and the Tories will do everything they can to make sure he stays as Leader. Just watch for the relative paucity of attacks on him in the press.
BobG
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Has anybody heard about Boris trying to defend his previous blustering in front of the Treasury Select Committee this week? It's hilarious.
It's either been ignored by the (mostly Exit) press, or whitewashed as a Boris triumph, as in the Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3505738/Boris-Johnson-auditions-No-10-two-hour-grilling-senior-MPs-Brexit-implications-City-London.html
It's sad that in this country we only start getting a more balanced report from overseas ie Russia Today!:
https://www.rt.com/uk/336933-boris-johnson-eu-regulations/
There's a partial as-it-happens report here as well:
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/03/23/boris-johnson-grilled-on-eu-referendum-as-it-happens
However, if you want to make your own mind up, here's the full recording:
http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/treasury-committee/news-parliament-2015/eu-referendum-evidence-15-
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Was that the one where he suggested that thanks to the EU, 8-year-olds and under were banned from blowing up balloons and there was an EU directive preventing us from re-using teabags?
Either way, I believe that he was told to stop scare-mongering/be factually accurate with his statements. Really cannot stand the plank.
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The story in the Guardian was headlined 'All very interesting Boris, except none of it is true is it?
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/23/very-interesting-boris-johnson-brexit-treasury-select-committee
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Reminds me of that shock story that Teresa May presented to the Tory Conference a few years back, on how the Human Rights Act had prevented us from deporting a Peruvian man whose visa had expired, because he had a pet cat. In true Littlejohn style she said, exasperatedly "And I'm not making this up!"
Trouble was, she was...
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/oct/04/theresa-may-wrong-cat-deportation
As Paul Krugman frequently says, the truth tends to have a left-wing bias.
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Reminds me of that shock story that Teresa May presented to the Tory Conference a few years back, on how the Human Rights Act had prevented us from deporting a Peruvian man whose visa had expired, because he had a pet cat. In true Littlejohn style she said, exasperatedly "And I'm not making this up!"
Trouble was, she was...
http://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/oct/04/theresa-may-wrong-cat-deportation
As Paul Krugman frequently says, the truth tends to have a left-wing bias.
And she'd nicked that from a Nigel Farage speech - he even said 'And I'm not making this up!' too! - where he'd got loads of the facts wrong as well!
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On the subject of the Doyens of the Right repenting of their life's work...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3520932/PETER-HITCHENS-Privatisation-Free-trade-Shares-great-ruined-Britain.html#ixzz44qqaZQDR
Apologies for the Daily Mail link...I feel slightly soiled, but it's worth a read, just too see someone who was ideologically committed to the Neo-Liberal, anti-statist drive that has dominated for the past two generations, now saying that it has been a f**king disaster.
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Y'know what Billy? I've just sat here, for a couple of minutes in fact, trying to will myself into clicking that link. I failed.
BobG
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Y'know what Billy? I've just sat here, for a couple of minutes in fact, trying to will myself into clicking that link. I failed.
BobG
Funny you should say that. I had the same problem!
Even giving them 0.000001p in ad revenue or whatever it is for 1 click ultimately isn't worth it.