Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on June 24, 2016, 11:13:02 am
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We went to bed last night a richer country than France.
The collapse of the Pound means that we have woken up this morning a poorer country than France.
Good start. Who could have predicted that? Apart from all them experts that we're not supposed to listen to.
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
and i'll send you a French letter : you can do some reading up on mitterand whilst you are there
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Very good.
Entirely misses the point though. Our pound now buys 10% less of other people's stuff than it did last night.
We were told by the Brexiters that warnings of this kind of thing were Project Fear.
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Stop watching football if you don't like it.
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Very good.
Entirely misses the point though. Our pound now buys 10% less of other people's stuff than it did last night.
We were told by the Brexiters that warnings of this kind of thing were Project Fear.
5% to the Euro sky says. It will move back toward the starting point slowly. It's the long term that matters not the next few days.
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Very good.
Entirely misses the point though. Our pound now buys 10% less of other people's stuff than it did last night.
We were told by the Brexiters that warnings of this kind of thing were Project Fear.
thanks for that BST rigo has a pet phrase about notts county managers never surviving 2 years he pulls out from time to time
one of mine I heard years ago when a company increased it's prices was
"our prices are just as competitive only at higher levels"
please don't waffle on about matters you don't understand and I do
what are your views on this ?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/84b7854e-ed2f-11e5-888e-2eadd5fbc4a4.html#axzz4CUcAQsA6
update
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you're lucky they've just blocked access !!!
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Stop watching football if you don't like it.
I just watch European football, ironically, instead.
Why do you bother with little old Rovers then? You don't watch them, you don't support them, why are you even here?
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Rigo teeters on the edge of contradiction every time he posts*. On this occasions he seemingly wants free and unadulterated access to European cultural assets for himself (i.e. football) but doesn't want the same for people in return potentially coming to the UK.
*Sometimes he jumps right in.
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BST-The markets were always going to react like this..Right now traders are shorting currency and stocks and making money that's how it works..it's short term noise and sterling is already recovering..Pound to euro currently down 4.3% as we speak...
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Stop watching football if you don't like it.
I just watch European football, ironically, instead.
Why do you bother with little old Rovers then? You don't watch them, you don't support them, why are you even here?
Should I remain, or should I leave...
I think we should have a referendum and let democracy decide, don't you?
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One of my clients could lose up to £200k's worth of business... Or so he found out this morning when 3 of his clients called him up to tell him they're now considering taking their custom to the continent because of the vote. He hires about 10 people... He's not even that big a business as such, and I guess more of his clients (assuming that he has more of this kind of client - I don't know) will be contacting him. As such, I might lose his business. He happens to be my biggest client who is, by a country mile, the main reason that I can pay the mortgage and feed my kids. This in only a few hours. How many other businesses are having similar calls this morning, and what will be the impact? I mention this not for sympathy but to illustrate what is almost certainly going on up and down the land this morning.
But hey, a few knuckle-draggers can proudly boast that they have "their" country back and given the Govt. a bloody nose. And in those very same hours Farage, Gove, and Johnson have started distancing themselves from things they said during the campaign, played down promises they made and put clear air between themselves and the very extremism they whipped up to get what they wanted. Oh, and it's looking very likely the UK will to some degree break up. Slow handclap guys, slow handclap.
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I'm the other way Lipsy..I've lost work over the years to cheap labour in Europe especially Poland due to the way the eu works..I've lost work elsewhere in the world too because of eu regulations putting us at a disadvantage and it's cost people there jobs in the past..Different industries will benefit, others not so,but I know how hard it is so I'm hoping you don't suffer in the end when it settles down...
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There are always two sides, I know. I was just trying to illustrate what is already happening. Knee-jerk or no, it's pretty damn worrying.
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Stop watching football if you don't like it.
I just watch European football, ironically, instead.
Why do you bother with little old Rovers then? You don't watch them, you don't support them, why are you even here?
Should I remain, or should I leave...
I think we should have a referendum and let democracy decide, don't you?
Go for it. It doesn't bother me whatsoever.
And here's me thinking you were all for democracy!
A democratic decision was reached. That's life!
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And in those very same hours Farage, Gove, and Johnson have started distancing themselves from things they said during the campaign, played down promises they made and put clear air between themselves and the very extremism they whipped up to get what they wanted. Oh, and it's looking very likely the UK will to some degree break up. Slow handclap guys, slow handclap.
Like this, you mean?
http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/news/a798989/after-the-uk-votes-for-brexit-watch-ukips-nigel-farage-admit-350-million-nhs-claims-were-a-mistake-on-good-morning-britain/
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BST-The markets were always going to react like this..Right now traders are shorting currency and stocks and making money that's how it works..it's short term noise and sterling is already recovering..Pound to euro currently down 4.3% as we speak...
remember we have computerised trading -- computer programs scanning the markets trying to make minimal quick profits - for example a "buy" might be bought for 30 seconds and sold in part or whole immediately 30 seconds later - the man in the street can't comprehend this apparent "game playing"
and of course we have wide spreads in a "fast" market
suddenly companies like Tesco have to hedge into the future pdq
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Glyn,
That and more. Having listened to Gove and Johnson's "Oh heck, we won - what are we going to do now?" speeches, you could hear them reeling things in. Most of us knew that they were running a win at all costs campaign, but it now looks likely that, once again, we'll be paying the price because a majority of folk have been conned.
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Both sided lied Lypsy that much was clearly obvious
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Good news for exporters.
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not all leave voters are racist
but all racists are leave voters
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Good news for exporters.
The business i work for has 86% of sales from overseas. We stand to benefit massively in the short term. Long term, the stance has been to remain and we will suffer as a result of this.
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I'll be looking out for the announcements of planning applications and building contracts awarded for all these new NHS facilities.
Both sides spout BS - in politics they always do and filtering out the truth is nigh-on impossible.
At least if we had stayed in we would have had an opportunity to affect individual laws etc. Out, and we can't go back!
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WingCo
It's not the £/€ rate that is the issue! The Euro has also fallen dramatically. It's the value of the pound against the rest of the world and specifically, the dollar that is the issue.
2) You reckon this is just volatility? Biggest EVER drop in the £/$ exchange rate? Projected to be the biggest EVER drop in WORLDWIDE share prices?
People are in denial about the scale of this. This isn't just a bit of a ripple. This is the sort of stuff that triggers widespread recessions.
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I understood that UK will still be a EU member for at least 2 years, during exit negotiations. In this period UK still has to respect EU legislation and will not have the right to vote anymore.
It's true what I heard at TV, that Scotland and N Ireland are considering a referendum to leave the UK?
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Isn't Farage an ex banker?
But yes NI and Scotland are considering going for unification with the Republic and independence respectively.
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WingCo
It's not the £/€ rate that is the issue! The Euro has also fallen dramatically. It's the value of the pound against the rest of the world and specifically, the dollar that is the issue.
2) You reckon this is just volatility? Biggest EVER drop in the £/$ exchange rate? Projected to be the biggest EVER drop in WORLDWIDE share prices?
People are in denial about the scale of this. This isn't just a bit of a ripple. This is the sort of stuff that triggers widespread recessions.
do you this mean this "former colony"
from 2 days ago !!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36599316
The US has been warned about its high poverty rate in the International Monetary Fund's annual assessment of the economy.
The fund said about one in seven people were living in poverty and that it needed to be tackled urgently.
It recommended raising the minimum wage and offering paid maternity leave to women to encourage them to work
so what happens to them if they get ill - who cares !!
by the way Obama got a double kick in the teeth yesterday
he tried to legalise the ghost economy in the usa -- people who do not exist but to quote him pick our fruit make our beds --
I have never seen him so sad (excluding any gun massacres)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36610302
I presume you care a lot what happens over there or is it just the exchange rate
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Coleman, what in God's name are you blathering on about? Are you one of those low-tech bots that posts random responses on blogs?
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Coleman, what in God's name are you blathering on about? Are you one of those low-tech bots that posts random responses on blogs?
I think you meant...
"Coleman", what in God's name are you "blathering" on about?
www.pointlesspostorlink.com
Are you one of those "low-tech bots" that posts "random" responses on blogs?
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Coleman, what in God's name are you blathering on about? Are you one of those low-tech bots that posts random responses on blogs?
error 404 !!!
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Good news for exporters.
What is? Having to pay for export declarations that they didn't have to before?
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It was 'Project Fear', they said...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/morgan-stanley-brexit-eu-referendum-jobs-dublin-frankfurt-a7100911.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/morgan-stanley-brexit-eu-referendum-jobs-dublin-frankfurt-a7100911.html)
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FTSE down 2%. Nowhere near as bad as expected.
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See if you can move to France then if you don't like it.
Blairy loves France
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I've now moved onto the stage where I need something, anything to make me smile.
This actually made me laugh for a second...
Just found £8 down the back of the sofa!
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/13466093_10154399112131777_2039108937307020213_n.jpg?oh=068ba2d1722637438b87c0899be4e608&oe=57F79A04)
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FTSE down 2%. Nowhere near as bad as expected.
And from The Telegraph:
but the FTSE 250, which is considered a closer barometer of the UK economy, fell by as much as 12.3pc before paring losses back to 7.3pc.
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I've now moved onto the stage where I need something, anything to make me smile.
This actually made me laugh for a second...
Just found £8 down the back of the sofa!
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/13466093_10154399112131777_2039108937307020213_n.jpg?oh=068ba2d1722637438b87c0899be4e608&oe=57F79A04)
Suppose it's better than finding one of these!
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FTSE 100 closed at 6,138.7 probably about average level during the last year, so not quite the disaster forecast by Gideon and Dozy Dave, but markets don't like uncertainty so hope the Politicians and Civil Servants get a move on with negotiating our divorce from EU.
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And the Dow Jones is down 3%
The Dax down 7%
The Nikkei down 8%
The FTSE250 down 8%
The CAC down 8%
The Nasdaq down 8%
Just ripples...
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Rigo mate.
1) I'm not talking about what MIGHT happen. I'm talking about what IS HAPPENING. Pretty obvious, I thought, but there you go.
2) If you think that what happens on the stock markets and financial markets doesn't affect ordinary people, then you are more divorced from reality than even I had realised.
3) The "scaremongering tactics" involved sober predictions of this kind of global market chaos as a result of Brexit. The people who predicted these things were accused of being bought out liars and likened to Hitler's lackeys. If you're happy to throw your lot in with the folk who used those tactics then...well, frankly, I'm not really surprised.
4) Clearly the Remain side's message failed. Whether it was wrong is an entirely different issue. But congratulations. Your side won. No question about that. Fingers crossed that all those experts WERE wrong, eh? And that this market reaction really is just ripples.
Now. f**k off. You bore me.
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No. I haven't had the time.
I've spent the evening explaining to my part-Italian 9 year old that he won't have to "f**k off home" as someone kindly suggested to him at school today.
So you'll understand if I'm a bit short f**king tempered.
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Moving back to the topic heading, could I introduce the elephant in the room?
On second thoughts, this piece by Jeanette Winterson does it well;
We need to build a new left. Labour means nothing today | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/we-need-to-build-a-new-left-labour-means-nothing-jeanette-winterson)
DisUnited Kingdom..the next chapter!
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I think the vote to leave was won almost entirely on the immigration issue. That is clear from the demographics of the voting.
Ladcrooks were betting 10/1 ON that remain would win as the polls closed, which to me implies that thousands and thousands of people who voted leave did so furtively with the immigration issue as their priority.
It's a disgrace but there it is.
Let's hope we can find a way through this.
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Rigo mate.
1) I'm not talking about what MIGHT happen. I'm talking about what IS HAPPENING. Pretty obvious, I thought, but there you go.
2) If you think that what happens on the stock markets and financial markets doesn't affect ordinary people, then you are more divorced from reality than even I had realised.
3) The "scaremongering tactics" involved sober predictions of this kind of global market chaos as a result of Brexit. The people who predicted these things were accused of being bought out liars and likened to Hitler's lackeys. If you're happy to throw your lot in with the folk who used those tactics then...well, frankly, I'm not really surprised.
4) Clearly the Remain side's message failed. Whether it was wrong is an entirely different issue. But congratulations. Your side won. No question about that. Fingers crossed that all those experts WERE wrong, eh? And that this market reaction really is just ripples.
Now. f**k off. You bore me.
You moved to France yet?
Pathetic.
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Well, here's one thing that's NOT going to happen, according to Dan Hannan (via BBC website)
Daniel HannanBBC
From earlier on the Big Decision, Conservative MEP and Leave campaigner Dan Hannan said there was no promise to reduce immigration by leaving the European Union.
He told the programme that Vote Leave had "never said there is going to be some radical decline, that we're going to shut the door".
Mr Hannan said what people wanted was to know the government was in charge of how many people were coming in.
"We promised to control migration even that will take time - I don't want to build up expectations but that will happen," he said.
He said people are "not like three-year-olds" and they understand that nothing will change immediately.
Yeah, I distinctly recall the Leave side frequently saying, "Vote for us because we're NOT promising to reduce immigration."
I wonder when folk will start to realise the extent to which they've been played?
You know what truly terrifies me? The casual way in which the fear of immigration is stoked up for political purpose, by people who have no intention or ability to do anything about it. It's a powder keg.
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Obviously when it's too late.
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I think the vote to leave was won almost entirely on the immigration issue. That is clear from the demographics of the voting.
Ladcrooks were betting 10/1 ON that remain would win as the polls closed, which to me implies that thousands and thousands of people who voted leave did so furtively with the immigration issue as their priority.
It's a disgrace but there it is.
Let's hope we can find a way through this.
I said a day before the vote on here that a simple YES or NO vote on something as far reaching as the EU membership was a ludicrous proposition and I still think that. I watched the BBC coverage of the votes and OUT campaigners mainly from the Tory party were justifying it on the grounds that 'major constitutional issues' should always go to a referendum. However, this is/was clearly something way way way beyond that, something that covered so many different aspects of our lives grouped together indiscriminately.
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I'm sad to say that this is, without any question at all, the single most profound thing that has happened to, or in or by this country in my entire lifetime. And I'm not a spring chicken any more. This will have consequences, big consequences, for decades. Some will no doubt be beneficial consequences. Some will be harmful. Where that balance will lie is a perfectly proper subject to debate. Idiotic responses like all of yours Rigo, do nothing except demonstrate the shallowness of your thinking. We can't all agree with each other. It would be 1984 if we did. But to deny the spark of ideas clashing, the rigour of arguments being tested, is downright shameful. I deplore the result today, but even more than that, I deplore the real and deep damage that this campaign has done to the fabric, the values and the behaviours of the United Kingdom. Those are prices we should not have had to pay. And they are prices we will all sorely, badly, regret sooner rather than later. The whole nation has been badly, very badly, let down by its politicians for 30 years on this subject. Polarisation and xenophobia are not good tools with which to maintain a civilised existence. So wind your neck in Rigo. Think about causes and effects for once - rather than spouting your personal prejudices. We've all got 'em. But some people can recognise in themselves what they are.
BobG
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No. I haven't had the time.
I've spent the evening explaining to my part-Italian 9 year old that he won't have to "f**k off home" as someone kindly suggested to him at school today.
So you'll understand if I'm a bit short f**king tempered.
What you're really bad tempered about is the fact that people went out yesterday, voted based on their beliefs/gut instinct, and collectively that has outweighed the views of those that wanted to mean (which includes YOUR beliefs).
For weeks, on here and probably out door-knocking, you've pushed your REMAIN ideologies down the throats of people - it hasn't worked and you don't like it.
We're leaving the EU, so you've either got two options - one is to be a doom-mongering, doom merchant for however long and be a union-sceptic or the second option is to prepare for a future (whatever that does actually hold).
How on earth did this country overcome the Second World War (something far more testing than we've ever gone through in our lifetime) and survive in the 1950s/1960s, eh? Long before the European Union came to a fruition.
Regards
An uneducated LEAVE supporter, who voted based on what was important to me.
Thanks Rigo.
He's fine now by the way. Off to sleep.
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I'm sad to say that this is, without any question at all, the single most profound thing that has happened to, or in or by this country in my entire lifetime. And I'm not a spring chicken any more. This will have consequences, big consequences, for decades. Some will no doubt be beneficial consequences. Some will be harmful. Where that balance will lie is a perfectly proper subject to debate. Idiotic responses like all of yours Rigo, do nothing except demonstrate the shallowness of your thinking. We can't all agree with each other. It would be 1984 if we did. But to deny the spark of ideas clashing, the rigour of arguments being tested, is downright shameful. I deplore the result today, but even more than that, I deplore the real and deep damage that this campaign has done to the fabric, the values and the behaviours of the United Kingdom. Those are prices we should not have had to pay. And they are prices we will all sorely, badly, regret sooner rather than later. The whole nation has been badly, very badly, let down by its politicians for 30 years on this subject. Polarisation and xenophobia are not good tools with which to maintain a civilised existence. So wind your neck in Rigo. Think about causes and effects for once - rather than spouting your personal prejudices. We've all got 'em. But some people can recognise in themselves what they are.
BobG
My thoughts entirely Bob.
I want to say it was a campaign well fought on both sides but sadly that wasn't the case. Both sides were guilty of throwing muck at either side that it became about personnel involved over politics, scaremongering and peddling xenophobic values and hatred. We never as a nation got a debate, we just kept getting told who said what and why we shouldn't believe them. It would appear that in the end people turned off from the public debate and voted on their instinct.
Constitutional changes needed in terms of UK/EU law being separated, Scottish and possibly Irish referendum and if the electorate are going to show such disregard to expert advice then perhaps its time we revisit the debate regarding the House of Lords.
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And the Dow Jones is down 3%
The Dax down 7%
The Nikkei down 8%
The FTSE250 down 8%
The CAC down 8%
The Nasdaq down 8%
Just ripples...
It's not even been 24 hours after the people democratically voted to leave. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Don't you realise that, despite all the scaremongering from your sort, nearly every voting area in this country outside of London wanted to leave the European Union.
You can put whatever spin on it that you like. It's irrelevant - nobody knows what is going to happen.
Lets not forget that this time yesterday, REMAIN were extremely confident (nearly bordering on arrogant) that the people would vote in favour of staying in the EU.
Look how that worked out. :laugh:
Are you saying people were stupid enough to vote for something when they didn't know what was going to happen? Oh, wait a minute.................
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Well after a momentary relapse where the fate of the national team is concerned, I'm back to agreeing with BST again.
I'm gutted at the result we've woken up to this morning, and genuinely anxious about the repercussions. Rigo patronisingly comments that those in suits don't like uncertainty. I'd say most people fear instability and uncertainty where their livelihood is concerned. The snap reaction of the markets was inevitable and of course there's nothing tangible for the everyday man or woman to feel today. But it's not just today that bothers me, it's what will follow in the coming months and years. We know there'll be a period of recession, what we don't know is how long and how deep as there is no precedent for this. A prolonged period of uncertainty is the only certainty when we face such a long, complex and precarious phase of negotiation.
As always, the extent to which you feel a recession will depend entirely on where you work and what your circumstances are. But the events of the last 24 hours are a serious worry to a lot of people and that's not a nice thing.
What upsets me the most is the utterly disingenuous way in which the campaign to leave has been pushed through and the feeble response of 'remain'. Proven ruthless, immoral and self serving career politicians like IDS, Gove and Johnson have got straight into the head of the neglected North and preyed on this notion that everything we suffer is at the hands of migrants.
I work for a Yorkshire Local Authority and have seen first hand the viscous imbalance in the cuts to public funding across the Northern regions that have left our services stretched to breaking point. If you haven't before, just take the time to look at the formula used and manipulated to squeeze funding across many of our authorities in comparison to the more affluent areas - the south and some of the wealthier Manchester regions.
The result is that people here see deprivation, inaccessibility, growing waiting times, overflowing classrooms and insufficient and substandard housing. These opportunists have tapped right into that and got people exclusively blaming the foreigners and believing that a leave vote will see our own interests looked after. Taking back control for the working people of Britain? Rubbish, utter rubbish. Our own working classes are likely to suffer further at the hands of the recession, and the instability itself will serve to justify the continuation of the conservative austerity measures and the neglect of the North. And that's before we even start on those frankly ludicrous claims about an extra £350million a week for our NHS that, if anyone swallowed, I pity them.
And the defence against this? Cameron and Osbourne - the key protagonists in ideological austerity that have put their foot down and steered us right into this mess. A half hearted Jeremy Corbyn who is a victim of his own honesty and (in fairness to him) offering a pretty balanced appraisal of the benefits and pitfalls of EU membership that has failed miserably to resonate with the electorate. Amidst all this, the voice of almost every credible independent source has been shouted down by lies spread through pathetic right wing social media meme's, and endorsed by the public faces of 'leave.'
I've found myself wishing we had an English equivalent of Nicola Sturgeon - who stands up fiercely for her own people but also upholds genuine core values of compassion, rationality and, crucially, credibility. In England we had nothing of that ilk to stand up to the liars. And the charismatic Johnson and Farage won (misled) minds if not hearts.
If there is one positive I can take from this, and right now I'm struggling, it's the prospect of what may have happened down the line if the vote had edged the other way. Nobody can deny that this episode has been heavily divisive and fostered some pretty widespread xenophobia bordering on tribal vitriol against all things immigration. While remain would have likely seen the economic status quo maintained (and I know that itself is not exactly ideal but I'm risk averse to the alternative) the anti-immigration movement would not have gone away.
Moreover, all the people that have newly engaged in politics purely to rid the country of the 'dirty immigrants' would have rallied against a marginal defeat, cried conspiracy, and I dread to think what would have happened come the next General Election when they all turned up with their ballpoint pens.
Clutching at straws but now I suppose there is more of a chance that they'll see the campaign leaders for what they are when, ultimately, they fail to deliver on promise after promise that our economic stability has been put at risk for. Hopefully the strength of the nation will restore that without too much damage and we can move forward with more informed and engaging debate that inspires fairness and equality in the future. Whether that's after the horse has bolted, I don't know. None of us do.
In the mean time I am worried by this period of instability we face. That's not to sound like we're doomed forever, I don't subscribe to scare mongering. It's certainly not out of the question that we'll end up in a much better place one day, economic prosperity comes in cycles. I just hope we haven't welcomed the risk of too much pain to pin our hopes on getting there, when lots of people are rightly asking the question; getting where? This is a huge and reckless game of chance to offer a supposedly increased notion of sovereignty.
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Jonathan
That is a quite superb summing up of the situation. One of the most thoughtful posts I've ever seen on here.
The f**king furious side of me, which is rarely far from the surface, particularly nodded furiously at this:
A half hearted Jeremy Corbyn who is a victim of his own honesty and (in fairness to him) a pretty balanced appraisal of the benefits and pitfalls of EU membership that has failed miserably to resonate with the electorate.
That, better than anything else I've read, gets to the core of the Corbyn problem.
He isn't a leader.
He wants to discuss and debate and theorise and consider and argue and above all, to tread a line that allows him to be pure to his ideology. He's ambivalent about the EU. He sees pros and cons. He thinks there are shades of grey.
Very laudable in itself. It reminds me of the very noble and honest and passionate people on the left of the Labour Party that I used to cross intellectual swords with years ago. And their approach would be absolutely the way to be in an ideal world. One where every voter mused and thought about the detail of arguments and rationally came to conclusions.
But real politics, the politics of leadership doesn't work like that. It is a grubby, vicious, nasty thing. It's about distilling a thesis down to a four word sound bite that resonates. It's about convincing people who see you for 10 seconds on the news.
That is what Johnson is superb at, for all that I despise his beliefs. He doesn't believe that the EU is as bad as he painted it. But he knows that in politics, when you make your decision, you go all in. Note how many times he punched the air and said "Let's take back control!" in the past month. A thesis distilled down to four words.
It's not what I want in an ideal world. But it works in this world.
Corbyn, by comparison, was a f**king disaster. He prevaricated. He "on the one hand...on the other hand"ed. He gave no sense of passion or urgency.
Had he come out energetically and fervently for Europe, he WOULD have tipped the balance. But he can't. He's a back room debater. And that makes him a catastrophe as a leader. He gave no LEADERSHIP to Labour supporters. He failed in the simplest essence of what a leader has to do.
He bears a huge responsibility for this disaster. He has to go.
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I agree entirely. I like the fact that he's able to portray a balanced debate on the pros and cons. On that basis his view of the EU is much more comparable to my own, albeit not always on the same points. Not everything about it is perfect, some things are far from it, but on balance I strongly believe we are / were better off in.
Unfortunately the whole referendum became over politicised - one extreme or the other. Any rational middle ground dismissed and ignored. Evaluating the balance of risk does not make for a good meme when people are waiting to sing Rule Britannia and declare freedom.
Where the Labour Party is concerned, it's with regret that I have to agree it is unable to move forward with Corbyn at the helm. He's an honourable, educated, thoroughly decent and principled man but that's nowhere near enough.
I expect the next few years will present a massive opportunity for a credible opposition.
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Great post from Jonathan.
BST, I think you are confusing the responsibility of Corbyn with the role of the Labour Party, which is why I posted the Winterson article from the Guardian.
If Corbyn had done exactly what you say, it would have made no impact.
Why.....because Labour have lost the confidence of voters in their core heartlands. This happened before Corbyn became leader, and I doubt it can be recaptured with the current political landscape and the structure of party politics today.
Scotland has rejected the appeal of the traditional Labour package. The cultural bias of northern former industrial communities is set to a different beat than the Labour voters of London and the urban south. I don't know how anyone can make a case which makes sense across the various constituencies that make up the Labour brand.
The old politics is breaking down, and with it the system of governance, and no-one is really speaking to the new agenda. Scotland will move the goalposts by leaving the UK.
Its a Kodak moment, when all interested parties are in denial of the slow dawning realisation that you have diminishing relevance in the future. To blame Corbyn is to miss the point IMHO.
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Both sides negated the effect either were having on this whole process. Downright lies were the order of the day, when all the people needed were the facts and some understanding of the subject matter.
In the end, i think a lot of people voted, out of unhappiness at how things are being run. I don't believe many had faith in either side.
To vote remain in many peoples eyes, was to vote for a lifetime of more of the same.
To leave was risky, but it offered the chance of things getting better. Risk or not, people chose to take a chance that things can get better, i don't think the characters on either came into it as much as is thought!.
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Johnathon the problem with sturgeon is she wants Scotland to go it alone do you really think that is the best idea for them?
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Johnathon the problem with sturgeon is she wants Scotland to go it alone do you really think that is the best idea for them?
I am not Jonathon and I know nowt much really but I SINCERELY hope when the Scotland Independence stuff starts again they keep it off my TV.
It was almost saturation coverage last time , then the EU Referendum WAS wall to wall (despite nobody saying anything factual - it was all hypothesis) so for gawds sake NOT AGAIN
....AND BBC please demote the Scottish Premier League back where it belongs in the list of Fixtures and list of latest Tables and that is AFTER Division One NOT straight after The Championship !
Rantsville here I come
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Johnathon the problem with sturgeon is she wants Scotland to go it alone do you really think that is the best idea for them?
I don't, or at least I didn't until yesterday's result. Now I'm not so sure. But my point was more around her core values and the way in which she puts them across. All through the campaign she made it abundantly clear that it was the reckless and cosmetic austerity that's creating this sense of broken Britain. She wiped the floor with Boris on the issue. However Cameron and Osbourne could never go down that route as its their own brainchild and overriding political agenda. The voice from elsewhere was just not strong enough. I thought the remain campaign over here was pitiful really.
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Johnathon the problem with sturgeon is she wants Scotland to go it alone do you really think that is the best idea for them?
But joining the EU is not going it alone, she wants to break with one Union to join another Union. Thats not being a nationalist as she claims to be, and what is really laughable is that Scotland voted to stay in the EU, but had Sturgeon got her way in the Scottish referendum Scotland would have left the EU and would have spent years trying to meet the criteria to join the EU.
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I'm not euphoric at the result although I voted leave. There will be hard times ahead but we need to move together as a country after campaigns that have left us more divisive than ever.
Yesterday it was said that there will be profound changes made in the EU.
Maybe if they had been made earlier we might not have voted in the same way. France also said yesterday that they are at the centre of Europe and created it. They intimated becoming it's leader obviously sensing a chance to increase power.I don't think that those sentiments will sit well with Germany.
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Idler
Which part of "France" was that?
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Johnathon the problem with sturgeon is she wants Scotland to go it alone do you really think that is the best idea for them?
What Jonathan - or you - think about it is irrelevant. it's what THEY think about it.
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Idler
Which part of "France" was that?
That was my take on the French president's speech yesterday.
I didn't catch it all as I'm in Rhodes but that is how it came across to me.
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Idler. I saw excerpts of Hollande's speech and I've read transcripts of it on line. I've not seen anything that sounds remotely like what you describe.
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Idler. I saw excerpts of Hollande's speech and I've read transcripts of it on line. I've not seen anything that sounds remotely like what you describe.
Perhaps it's been through a Boris filter! :lol:
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Idler. I saw excerpts of Hollande's speech and I've read transcripts of it on line. I've not seen anything that sounds remotely like what you describe.
Did he not say the France was at the centre of Europe and created Europe also indicating that France would become a leader in Europe?
I took his speech to mean he intended France to fill any gap left by the UK.
I'm on holiday so have only caught parts on Sky news as there is only that and BBC world news.
Either him or Junkers said that there would be profound change in the EU.
Maybe profound change offered earlier would have led to a different result.
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Idler. I saw excerpts of Hollande's speech and I've read transcripts of it on line. I've not seen anything that sounds remotely like what you describe.
Perhaps it's been through a Boris filter! :lol:
It wasn't even a beer filter. It's so warm here I hardly ate anything yesterday and only had about three quarters of a pint of lager.
Certainly a waste of all inclusive.
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It might just be me, but I think Cameron and Boris are just pawns in a bigger plot. Think:
Cameron knew the vote would go against him as the referendum vote is way more black and white than a general election. Boris is a popular guy, so to have him on the opposite side helped with that. They both know Brexit was going to happen.
They also knew that the proposal for a second Scottish referendum would occur. If Scotland goes independent, (which is looking increasingly likely), then we will have Tory rule forever and a day.
The Labour party as a leadership concept is f**ked without Scotland (See the General Election) as the structure of the voting means that the Tories will always get majority.
Cameron has deliberately fallen on his sword, but in doing so has effectively made this a one party state, regardless of who rules the parties.
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It does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
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You know the video about how UK politicians and Royal family are descendants from migrants
https://www.facebook.com/100000200228137/videos/1306550782694917/?pnref=story
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We are all descended from immigrants/invaders DMC.
The arguement should be about how many can come and over what time scale. Letting a lot of people arrive at once with no job,house money or places for their children does nobody any good.
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We are all descended from immigrants/invaders DMC.
The arguement should be about how many can come and over what time scale. Letting a lot of people arrive at once with no job,house money or places for their children does nobody any good.
I agree with that
and to distinguish atmosphere for a little time :lol: One of the reasons she voted to leave is based on chicken and eggs :lol:
https://www.facebook.com/212667045793913/videos/212815595779058/
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It does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://wwwIt does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
She tries that on a regular basis. I don't blame her for trying to shift the problem but it isn't going to happen any time soon.
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It does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://wwwIt does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
She tries that on a regular basis. I don't blame her for trying to shift the problem but it isn't going to happen any time soon.
Its the rules of the European Union that have stopped her previously TRB. We have just voted to reject those rules.
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Excellent post Jonathan, and if you don't mind I would like to post this reflection from a much younger friend of mine:
I'm angry. Shocked and devastated too, but mostly angry. Angry that my country has chosen a path of nationalism and isolationism when what the world desperately needs is more inclusivity and cooperation. Angry that the economic and political future of my generation has been jeopardised by an older generation yearning for a golden age to which – if it ever existed – we cannot and will not return. Angry that a fundamental part of my identity – I have always identified as British, not English or Scottish – looks set to be fractured as the tensions of a divided nation prove too much for our fragile union to bear.
Most of all, I'm angry at the monumental failure of our political establishment. At the short-sighted, party-political posturing which led to this referendum being called in the first place. At the fear-mongering and falsehoods which characterised a dismal and deplorable campaign (on both sides), and most importantly at the the refusal of the mainstream parties to take seriously the concerns of the working class people who voted to leave and who will be most affected by the economic turmoil which results.
For decades the liberal, metropolitan elite of which the majority of those in Westminster are a part have been far too quick to dismiss the legitimate fears and complaints of the poorest members of our society as bigotry, laziness and ignorance, and in doing so have fuelled the resentment and disenchantment which populists such as Nigel Farage have exploited. Couple that with the crippling austerity imposed by the Tory government, the navel-gazing and infighting of the Labour Party, and the self-immolation of the Liberal Democrats, and it's no wonder that such a significant proportion of the population – who are indeed mostly 'ordinary, decent people' – chose to 'put two fingers up to the political class'. That they did so in this way is, I believe, a tragic and potentially catastrophic mistake, but one which we should not cheapen or minimise by throwing around simplistic labels like 'idiot' and fascist'. To do so would be to perpetuate the very cycle of condescension, disempowerment and frustration which got us here in the first place.
I understand the desire to lash out, to rail and fulminate and apportion blame. I feel it too. But I think that the best thing we can do with that energy, that righteous indignation, is channel it into meaningful action. I can't change what happened on Thursday – the decision has been made and accepting that the will of the majority is not always the same as one's own is an integral part of living in a democracy – but I can start doing now what I wish I had started doing a few weeks ago: campaigning to make the UK as open, inclusive, and forward-thinking a nation as it can be. Whatever else happens, this is an unprecedented opportunity for us to take stock, to rethink our place in the world, and to reshape our national discourse. And if through that process we can become even a little more compassionate and understanding as a society, then maybe something good will have come out of this debacle after all.
This resonates with me, and is far better than anything I could have written
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Props to Jonathan - that was quite something. Thank you.
I'm still processing it all/in shock at the moment. If we have to accept this (and we do), the one tiny sliver of joy that I am panning out of the cesspool of shit is that pretty much every single major promise that Leave made has been retracted within 24 hours. Money. NHS. Immigration - you name it, they've back-peddled. It's a perverse pleasure, I know, but you have to get it where you can.
I seem to recall BST saying that Leave voters had been duped (apologies if I am misquoting and/or misappropriating). Well, it's taken 24 hours for him to be proven correct, and - you know what? - I fear it's only going to get worse.
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It does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
B-but that was supposed to be just scaremongering!
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Props to Jonathan - that was quite something. Thank you.
I'm still processing it all/in shock at the moment. If we have to accept this (and we do), the one tiny sliver of joy that I am panning out of the cesspool of shit is that pretty much every single major promise that Leave made has been retracted within 24 hours. Money. NHS. Immigration - you name it, they've back-peddled. It's a perverse pleasure, I know, but you have to get it where you can.
I seem to recall BST saying that Leave voters had been duped (apologies if I am misquoting and/or misappropriating). Well, it's taken 24 hours for him to be proven correct, and - you know what? - I fear it's only going to get worse.
no1 has been duped, the only person who promised the Nhs that kind of money was farage,he has no power and was not part of the official leave campaign in effect it's like me promising it them
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Perhaps not duped but its hard to watch this from last night without feeling that the Leave protagonists were a little less than truthful on immigration as well as the 350 Million a week figure
This one is like a rabbit in the headlights
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36628894
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I'll just leave this here...
(http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/resources/images/5063096/?type=responsive-gallery)
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No. I haven't had the time.
I've spent the evening explaining to my part-Italian 9 year old that he won't have to "f**k off home" as someone kindly suggested to him at school today.
So you'll understand if I'm a bit short f**king tempered.
What you're really bad tempered about is the fact that people went out yesterday, voted based on their beliefs/gut instinct, and collectively that has outweighed the views of those that wanted to mean (which includes YOUR beliefs).
For weeks, on here and probably out door-knocking, you've pushed your REMAIN ideologies down the throats of people - it hasn't worked and you don't like it.
We're leaving the EU, so you've either got two options - one is to be a doom-mongering, doom merchant for however long and be a union-sceptic or the second option is to prepare for a future (whatever that does actually hold).
How on earth did this country overcome the Second World War (something far more testing than we've ever gone through in our lifetime) and survive in the 1950s/1960s, eh? Long before the European Union came to a fruition.
Regards
An uneducated LEAVE supporter, who voted based on what was important to me.
Rigo, who the f**k are you to make a judgement on what someone else's emotional state is caused by - based on what you deduce from a thread post?
All parties spin and lie to win votes. Now we are hearing all sorts of soundbites that post Brexit immigration won't be tightened, and NHS spending won't be increased, so SOME leave voters feel conned. Do any stay voters feel conned?
If voters are "conned" in a general election campaign then a few years later they have the chance to vote again.
With the Brexit we won't get that chance, so on this occasion the political rhetoric, spin and downright lies (on both sides) is totally inexcusable.
Do YOU think the spin (lies) is excusable??
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I'll just leave this here...
(http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/resources/images/5063096/?type=responsive-gallery)
To be fair that in no ways says let's put £350m into the NHS does it.
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I wasn't overly keen on Europe and feel it's run for the benefit of the German economy. But I think the referendum was lost, when the people who have nothing, and had nothing to lose in voting out, came out in the droves to vote against the establishment.
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I'll just leave this here...
(http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/resources/images/5063096/?type=responsive-gallery)
To be fair that in no ways says let's put £350m into the NHS does it.
Oh come on! Of course this implies that the EU funding could be redirected to the NHS - " we send to the EU/let's fund the NHS instead"
What ELSE could that statement mean??
Yes it is easy to say it doesn't meant it will definitely be all £350 million a week going to the NHS, and many people would understand that, but it is a clearly emotive statement that many voters will have taken as what a Brexit could mean.
If it wasn't supposed to make folks think that is what a Brexit could mean, then why did they bother making the statement in the first place - in big f**king letters on the side of a campaign bus??
Unless of course you were being sarcastic? In which case I retract...
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It does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://wwwIt does look as though the people who voted for Brexit to reduce immigration may have actually increased it. The Mayor of Calais is pressing the French government to remove the right of Britain to carry out immigration checks on the French side of the Channel Tunnel - which would then allow the thouands of migrants in Calais through it and into Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36626553
She tries that on a regular basis. I don't blame her for trying to shift the problem but it isn't going to happen any time soon.
When we leave the EU, UK officials won't have any right to operate on foreign soil so it will happen eventually.
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Props to Jonathan - that was quite something. Thank you.
I'm still processing it all/in shock at the moment. If we have to accept this (and we do), the one tiny sliver of joy that I am panning out of the cesspool of shit is that pretty much every single major promise that Leave made has been retracted within 24 hours. Money. NHS. Immigration - you name it, they've back-peddled. It's a perverse pleasure, I know, but you have to get it where you can.
I seem to recall BST saying that Leave voters had been duped (apologies if I am misquoting and/or misappropriating). Well, it's taken 24 hours for him to be proven correct, and - you know what? - I fear it's only going to get worse.
no1 has been duped, the only person who promised the Nhs that kind of money was farage,he has no power and was not part of the official leave campaign in effect it's like me promising it them
But you weren't given god knows how much TV and media time to spout as much b*llocks as you wanted to.
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I'll just leave this here...
(http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/resources/images/5063096/?type=responsive-gallery)
To be fair that in no ways says let's put £350m into the NHS does it.
How do YOU interpret 'We send the EU £350 million a week let's fund the NHS instead' then?
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I'm not looking for an argument with anyone about all of this, although I am most definitely decompressing. Sorry about that. There has been A LOT of fantastic thoughts and words shared on this 'ere forum over the last few weeks and months. I neither have the skill nor mindset right now to even begin to offer anything comparable.
However, a mate just sent me this. It chimed with me and is probably at least a million times better than anything that I could spit out of my fingers.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CltKzSsUkAEcx1h.jpg)
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I was addressing YOU about your assumption about BST, please answer.
I don't speak for those who may have labelled leave voters as that, if you read this forum enough you'll see I only speak for myself
I voted remain for family reasons only as my partner is German and she lives with me in the UK - not that it is any of your business, is it??
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I was addressing YOU about your assumption about BST, please answer.
I don't speak for those who may have labelled leave voters as that, if you read this forum enough you'll see I only speak for myself
I voted remain for family reasons only as my partner is German and she lives with me in the UK - not that it is any of your business, is it??
You voted based on your circumstances/reasons/preferences - exactly how it should be. I did likewise, based on mine.
That's called a democracy and it leads to a result...
Yes I agree completely - my other point on the other thread is about ensuring the electorate is more accurately represented as a whole.
But I challenged you about your assumptions on BST's thinking - yet you didn't answer.
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Rigo'd doing his age-old thing of not reading properly what people write and responding to what he things (or wants?) them to have written.
I certainly didn't refer to Leave voters as "uneducated". What I did do, was to present factual evidence that there was a strong negative correlation between the average educational attainment level in each voting area, and the % voting Leave in that region.
That is a fact. Not a FACT. But one of the humbler type. The type that Gove etc were so keen to tell you to ignore.
Some people get upset with facts that make them feel uncomfortable. And sometimes, people lash out when faced with that situation. Like our prospective Second in Command to PM Boris did, when he compared the most experienced economic minds in the country to Hitler's lickspittles, because they presented evidence that he didn't like.
Other people, like Rigo, aren't as sophisticated as Gove, but their response comes from the same idea. If someone tells you something that you don't like and you haven't got an argument against them, accuse them of being beneath contempt.
Our politics has rarely sunk to those levels. But that's the genie that's now out of the bottle. Rational, fact-based argument is to be rejected. And people who argue like that are fair targets for personal abuse.
Fun times ahead eh?
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I said earlier that I have been getting a crumb of comfort seeing the lies being revealed and the back-peddling the Brexiteers have been doing. I have a new pleasure now; seeing Daily Mail readers realising what they've voted for...
(http://i.imgur.com/1OYnKMk.jpg)
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Rigo
You're doing it again. I was giving you a fact. What do you want me to do? Lie to you?
And I was canvassing in Denaby before your balls had dropped, so there's no need for your advice thank you.
And once again. I have not once used the word "uneducated". YOU are the one who has debased this discussion by introducing that term.
Why do you do it?
PS: final bit of information. Canvassing on polling day is nothing to do with "shoving ideologies down people's throats." I can explain what the process is if you're interested. But I suspect you won't be, as it won't match the image that you want to be true.
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PS: final bit of information. Canvassing on polling day is nothing to do with "shoving ideologies down people's throats." I can explain what the process is if you're interested. But I suspect you won't be, as it won't match the image that you want to be true.
I think that it's the Leaver's idea of what canvassing is like, if my experience of one is anything to go by. So it's not surprising that they'd think everybody else stoops to the same level also.
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Don't forget to wipe your dummies every time you spit them out.
In other news I won £90 from the result. Haha
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Rigo.
I give up. If you are determined to paint this picture, then you're impervious to anything else.
Canvassing on Election Day is about going from house to house, asking whether people are Leave or Remain supporters.
If you're on my side and someone is a Remain supporter, you ask if they have voted. If they haven't, you remind them about the importance of their vote and even offer to drive them to the polling station.
If they are Remain voters, you wish them good luck and move on.
What, exactly did you think happened? We went round and harangued Leave supporters and threatened to kneecap them?
Your other question is so facile that it suggests that you are spoiling for a fight rather than a sensible discussion. Your choice.
Of course I've accepted the result. As you can see if you bother to read my posts, including one to you?
Why do you do this Rigo? What do you get out of it?
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Then don't listen to the sound. Read what I write. It's very simple.
You are a strange one Rigo. You're an intelligent lad but for years you've offer nothing on here but anger, misinterpretation contrariness. And then whining when people snap and give you a gobful.
I wonder what your demons are.
Actually, no I don't. I couldn't give a f**k. I'm just sad that it's your country that my kids will be growing up in. Very sad.
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It doesn't sound like you've accepted it.
Is it really beyond you to tell the difference between accepting the result of a vote and disagreeing with the result of a vote? Because either it is beyond you or you're being deliberately contentious.
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We'll just stick with misinterpretation in this case then. An absolute insistence on ignoring what other people say and building up a construct of what you think they say and think.
Are you a lonely man?
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Something what an english lad wrote on facebook:
"If you voted out because of "unelected politicians" then well done because we're about to get an unelected prime minister.
If you voted out because of immigration then well done, because you just lost the right of free movement too. Just wait 'til you have to get a visa to go to Glasgow or Belfast.
If you voted out because people were "stealing your jobs" then well done, because you're about to see Germany and France "steal" Nissan and a bunch of other companies who only manufacture here as a gateway to the eu market.
If you voted out because you think we'll get a great trade deal with the EEA "like Norway did", think again. Take a look around your Sainsbury's Local and try and find any fruit and veg that's grown in the UK. We need them more than they need us, and like the EEA, we'll have to accept EU policies like free movement as part of a trade deal anyway - except now we won't be able to have any say in them.
If you voted out because of vague scaremongering headlines like "Migrant Crisis" then please, feel free to remind me when it was that Syria joined the EU.
If you voted out because Farage promised £350m for the NHS, then I'm sure you'll be happy to watch him on This Morning revealing that that was a lie.
If you voted out and you're heading into retirement, then great job! Because now the working people of this nation will break their backs to afford your pension without the influx of young, economically active and skilled EU migrants.
If you voted out because you think we'll be better off, the £ has just fallen by 8% against the dollar.
And if you voted out because you love this country, prepare to see it crumble, with threats of a unified Ireland and an independent Scotland just hours after the result was confirmed.
Well done, Britain."
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A friend just posted this on Facebook. Hopefully this clears up the £350m nonsense for some people.
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13438862_10154198649310610_2440474733548381152_n.jpg?oh=5de582c2676511dc59ad66677695eaa1&oe=5805AC28)
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And old Nige eh?
Worra card.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-nigel-farage-nhs-350-million-pounds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.html
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_8mduTEvnU0
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I wonder how much we can give the NHS if we pull out of NATO..?
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Here's an interesting one doing the rounds. I absolutely don't subscribe to the idea that this will happen. What I do like, however, is that Cameron - in his final effective moments as PM - shafted BJ, Gove and co:
"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.
Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.
With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.
How?
Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.
And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.
The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.
The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?
Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?
Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.
If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.
The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.
When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.
All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign."
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I wonder how much we can give the NHS if we pull out of NATO..?
Millions, probably. If we can give £350m of made-up money, we can offer unicorns and rainbows if we pull out of NATO. That's how it works, right?
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I wonder how much we can give the NHS if we pull out of NATO..?
Millions, probably. If we can give £350m of made-up money, we can offer unicorns and rainbows if we pull out of NATO. That's how it works, right?
Of course, then we can go after the money we spend as UN members and all our problems are solved!
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And then foreign aid. We can't even look after ourselves - why should we show compassion for the plight of others overseas?
Sadly, as we both know, people think like that...
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Lipsy
I mentioned yesterday that there is a scenario by which Referendum 2.0 could take place, although I think it highly unlikely. But basically your post aligns to that, so here goes.
1. U.K. Delays signing Article 50 until new Tory leader chosen.
2. New PM seeks fresh mandate. Gets approval of opposition to override Fixed Term Parliament Act. Says will trigger Article 50 once he has mandate.
3. Labour pledges Referendum 2.0 in manifesto.
4. Labour wins GE. New PM informs EU he has no intention of triggering Article 50 until second referendum in which he will urge Remain vote.
5. Referendum 2.0 produces win for Remain.
Obstacles to be overcome:
1. New Tory PM would have to seek mandate. Precedent does not demand that a change of PM requires a GE.
2. He (could be a she of course!) might decide to commence Article 50 process straight away.
3. Labour would require an electable leader!
4. Remain would have to win Referendum 2.0. Ideally by a big margin.
5. The EU would have to be prepared to wait. At present, Angela Merkel excepted, most of the key players want us out asap.
Not my view, btw. I think it's time we accepted the fact we've made a decision and get on with making the best (most?) of it.
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You hit the nail on the head when you said the EU want us out now, no time will be given for any remain scenario to play out.
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The EU AND the U.K. have a moral responsibility to 500million people to get this over and done quickly. Whilst we don't, the uncertainty will badly hurt our economy and that of the EU.
We've opened the casket now. We can't sit contemplating the f**king thing whilst we decide what to do. It's time to get on with it.
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I wonder if Nige or Boris made any promises about this one?
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120
Turkeys and f**king Christmas.
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I agree 100% BST We should get on with it and minimise any damage to us or the EU.
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Same thing with Wales and Cornwall, who appear to have suddenly woken up to the fact that they have f**ked themselves. There are some very, very troubling times ahead.
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I wonder if Nige or Boris made any promises about this one?
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/guarantees-wanted-over-the-future-of-european-millions-1-7982120
Turkeys and f**king Christmas.
Who needs guarantees of money when we have meaningless platitudes like 'northern powerhouse' to make it look like something is being done when it isn't..?
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Long term this will be the best decision the country has made.
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Oh aye? Who says?
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who says its the best decision to stay in :) :) :)
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Oh no-one important. Just 90% of economists.
But f**k them. We're now living in an age where the politicians in charge say you shouldn't trust experts. So f**k knows.
Let's hope we don't go to war in the near future. Wouldn't want folk trusting them generals. And be careful about crossing bridges. Experts designed them.
Welcome to Brexit-land. Truth is an ephemeral concept, but your gut prejudices are always right.
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Next time I get ill, I'm going to wet my finger and see which way the wind blows. We dunt need no clevver peeple.
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Cameron's February 2016 "negotiations" became officially null and void FROM THE SECOND THE RESULT WAS ANNOUNCED- FACT - no matter what action or not is taken ... so it's back to the Jan 2016 situation
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Cameron's February 2016 "negotiations" became officially null and void FROM THE SECOND THE RESULT WAS ANNOUNCED- FACT - no matter what action or not is taken ... so it's back to the Jan 2016 situation
So what?
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Coleman.
Is this a cry for help?
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Nothing has happened yet that was not expected, let's just see what happens you might be surprised and it all works out fine
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Cameron definitely wanted us out of the eu. An experienced politician, doesn't get rich people, telling those less well off how to vote.
Neither would he let various leaders of other countries tell his people how to vote. Time after time he was doing things that aggravated too many people, that's what led to defeat. You can't tell me there wasn't a reason.
I agree what was said before, that it is to give the conservatives greater power. They can now go after the poor and disabled, and have nobody on they're shoulder, spouting 'human rights'.
The thing is i don't think it will quite work out as he hopes. I don't think the conservatives will be in power for much longer, the party is breaking apart at the seams. They have no leader amongst them capable of running a country.
Before long some time in 2017, there will be a general election, and they will be voted out. The whole conservative party were in on this, Boris and Gove merely played a part in my opinion in standing as opposition.
Cameron had already announced when he took office that he wouldn't see his term out. Osborne was being groomed for the role, the problem is, he is more disliked than cameron. The people have seen through what the conservative party are, and it's not liked by those who voted them in.
Labour haven't put a vote of no confidence in corbyn out for no reason, they know all of this. They are trying to get into a strong position, for when it all comes tumbling down.
Why should it bother us if Scotland decide to join the eu?, nobody is forcing them to stay allied to us, the same with the irish. They will make decisions best for them!.
The pound dropped in value, and has already climbed back upto half of what it lost. We are now in a world market of trading,not just a european one.
We have commonwealth countries to deal with, countries throughout the world will buy our goods and sell to us.
The cost of living therefore will drop for everybody in the shops. China are the major force in cheap goods, we will deal with them.
The european countries will still deal with us.
Us coming out of the eu, doesn't stop you living abroad, working or visiting there.
In 1973, this country signed up for a far different deal, than what the eu has become. As people of this nation, a vote was taken, the decision was leave, and no amount of moaning will get another referendum.
Just as i would have accepted remain, i am afraid you will have to accept the 'Leave decision'!.
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When will world war 3 commence? Worst lie of them all.
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Grow up Padge.
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Is that the Commonwealth, Sammy, that we dropped totally in the shit in 1975?
Things like that are remembered.
BobG
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Sammy.
Where do you get this from that the pound has already regained half of what it lost?
On Thursday night it was at $1.50. By Friday morning it was momentarily at $1.33. It's now $1.37.
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Grow up Padge.
We were told world war 3 would happen if we left the EU? No did I imagine that? Silly me.
David Cameron won a general election on lies. Where's the fraudulent petition to sign for that?
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Grow up Padge.
We were told world war 3 would happen if we left the EU? No did I imagine that? Silly me.
David Cameron won a general election on lies. Where's the fraudulent petition to sign for that?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
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Grow up Padge.
We were told world war 3 would happen if we left the EU? No did I imagine that? Silly me.
David Cameron won a general election on lies. Where's the fraudulent petition to sign for that?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brexit-could-trigger-world-war-7928607
Did Cameron himself ever use the words 'World War Three' or is it just another Borisism that everybody has swallowed whole without a squeak?
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Dagenham. Padge.
Why do you think the EEC/EC/EU was set up? Look back at the history of Europe. From 400AD to 1945, an army crossed the Rhine to do battle once every 37 years on average.
The primary purpose of the EU was to bind the major countries together so tightly that a future like that would be unthinkable.
No-one is saying that WWIII breaks out the day after Brexit. Don't be so f**king facile.
But the point is that those who say, let the EU collapse and the world will e a better place, haven't got any concept of what history says happens when Europe is disunited.
It's not pretty. And if the EU fragments, Europe will be a significantly less safe place.
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And, as I have said many, many times on here, every single major war of the last 300 years except two, has started in Europe. And even the two that didn't start in Europe involved European nations claiming they knew what was right for the natives.
Padge: go look up Donetsk or another Ukrainian city on YouTube. Just look at what you see. That's not even a war officially. It's just a minor, local disturbance. But just look at the devastation. It's immense. And it's not even 1% of what will happen if a real war breaks out. Once every 37 years Padge. Once every 37 years. You'd do well to think on that - and what can be done to stop it happeening again - especially with a revanchist absolutist in the Kremlin. That guy is the most dangerous man on the planet. I know a fair bit about him. I had to once. If he sees an opening he will not hesitate.
BobG
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Sammy.
Where do you get this from that the pound has already regained half of what it lost?
On Thursday night it was at $1.50. By Friday morning it was momentarily at $1.33. It's now $1.37.
BBC News and sky, said it had dropped seven percent, then it recovered three percent, it's just what i heard. You fellas will probably have a more accurate number of where it is at the minute, i don't see any point keep looking at it.
It is to be expected for the value to drop until things are organised, other countries will feel a little wary. None of us can say for definite what happens, we just look over the facts, and have an opinion on it.
I think the country will be better for leaving, in the long term, but it's just an opinion. I see our country being the first of many to leave!.
Anybody who says leaving, doesn't have some worries is lying, of course there are problems to iron out, and as you are saying above the wars have come from europe.
Unfortunately the world as a whole is in a very aggressive mood, there aren't many places where there isn't some trouble or another. I know us being in an organisation, makes people feel a touch more organised and safer as a whole.
But if anything of that sort was to happen, the eu countries wouldn't abandon supporting us, as we wouldn't them. Where it's tricky is if problems are between us and eu members, who do they side with?, in this day and age it would be pushing a button not sending forces to invade anyway. I don't see anything like this happening, in any case.
An interesting question, could the eu itself, start a european war, with various disagreements. I think it could work in our favour to not be involved fully with the eu.
Our country has faults and problems, but on the whole we have a cracking little country, it might be the start of us manufacturing our own goods more in the future, could Sheffield steel and the like, re-emerge, and start the country getting stronger?.
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Put in won't be the most dangerous man on the planet if Trump gets into the White House. Is it November time?
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Is he right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Futxf1U2f8
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BB
No. Not remotely correct
UK Exports to EU ~ £220bn per year
UK imports from EU ~£280bn per year.
He said we import ten times what we export. That claim alone is enough to show that he's a charlatan.
He quotes Open Europe, without stating that it is a think tank set up with the specific aim of promoting the break up of the EU. The Brexiters howled when truly independent organisations like NIESR and IFS gave their assessments. They didn't have an axe to grind. Their assessment was that Brexit will be far more damaging.
Oh aye, and even taking all that on, the Italian journalist was still lying. Open Europe's report said that the worst case scenario was a 2.2% drop in GDP, not 1.1% as that guy said.
See, there are some people who put a particular gloss on arguments. And other who simply lie through their teeth in an effort to convince people.
It's really up to folk to be smart enough to figure out which is which. Or else we're ALL f**ked.