Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on August 23, 2016, 06:01:51 pm
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...when you need someone to unshit the bed?
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/08/jeremy-corbyn-sat-down-train-he-claimed-was-full-virgin-says
f**k me...
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The Tories up to much this week Billy?
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Back in "La-la-la! I can't hear you" mode, Wesley?
You and these attractive older men eh? You keep making the wrong calls.
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I hear you Billy. Using trains frequently I can confirm they are ram packed and over priced. If anything I'd argue Corbyn's biggest lie is that the staff give excellent service which they most certainly do not.
I see you've blamed us non Labour voters for austerity in another post. No doubt when Corbyn wins the leadership race he can rely on your vote at the next election. I'd hate it to be your fault for austerity.
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Several points Wesley.
1) First rule of politics: Make it about the message, not the messenger. His message about the trains is a very important one. But that's irrelevant if he is so utterly incompetent as to turn an open goal into a clusterf**k like this.
2) The whole f**king thing doesn't ring true anyway. Why didn't he book a seat weeks ago when he first decided to go to Newcastle. I assume the Leader of the Opposition didn't just chuck his coat in and decide to go up to the Toon on a whim. It comes across as a stunt. And worse, a f**king shit stunt. And this from a man who's No1 appeal is that he's supposed to be genuine. As someone said last year: This New Politics eh? It seems very much like the Old Politics, only not as competent.
3) Yes, I'll be voting Labour at the next Election. What was your point?
4) Why are you wasting your time with me? Have you run out of elected Labour MPs to troll on Twitter?
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Keeping a low profile with them while I get my vote obviously. Normal service will resume once I have.
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I'll have a word.
In fact I've got several words for you.
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Besides finding actual Labour supporters who aren't the PLP and who don't back Corbyn is getting increasingly harder. Luckily theres a small microculture on here.
I'll be back to call for their resignations soon enough.
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Hmmm...
The source said when Virgin staff spotted Corbyn sitting in a vestibule they offered him a complimentary upgrade to first class, which he refused. The staff then upgraded a family to first class so Corbyn and his team could sit in their seats.
Other passengers sitting in corridors were also found seats during this period, as Virgin staff moved some people to booked seats which had not been occupied. ...
Mendez disputed Virgin’s account of the trip, sending the Guardian footage in which someone standing next to Corbyn says, in seeming reference to a lack of seats: “Hopefully at York some people will get off.” He also sent footage of the Labour leader walking through a packed carriage.
Mendez said that the seemingly empty seats shown on an image released by Virgin Trains, timestamped 11.10am, had bags or coats placed on them by passengers.
The filmmaker said there were a number of other passengers sitting on the floor during the initial part of the trip. “We filmed Jeremy Corbyn at 11.30am, sat at the front of the train. There were many other people sat on the floor during that journey.
Virgin’s version was contradicted by a woman who said she had also sat on the floor of the train next to Corbyn, having sent a social media photo of herself and her daughter with the Labour leader.
“He’s not lying,” she said. “When I saw him he was in coach A, right at the front. He hadn’t managed to find a seat in the whole of the train. I was sat on the floor, there was no space for me to get a seat. There were people in every space between every carriage. It was totally overcrowded. They were full of bags and full of people.”
Like Corbyn, the woman was seated about 45 minutes into the trip, after Virgin staff moved people into reserved seats that were unoccupied.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains-disputes-claim-over-lack-of-seats
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Wilts.
And, amazingly, "the seemingly empty seats shown on an image released by Virgin Trains, timestamped 11.10am, (which) had bags or coats placed on them by passengers" just happened to be the seats that were made available when, "the staff then upgraded a family to first class so Corbyn and his team could sit in their seats."
What a co-incidence, eh?
Mind, then there's that other bit in the Guardian article that you posted, but you decided not to highlight. "A Labour source said Corbyn’s recollection of why the Labour leader walked past seemingly empty seats, as shown in one CCTV still, was that there were no vacant pairs of seats, and he wanted to sit next to his wife, Laura, for the journey."
How does that song go? "If you can't sit with the one you love. Crouch outside the shitters."
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Anyway, like I was saying, it's never happen under Malcolm Tucker.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/when-the-news-agenda-is-derailed?bftwuk&utm_term=.jip5l8r95G#.bvb9L6OV9Q
I wonder what Seamus Milne actually does for a living?
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Sproty has just had an attack of apoplexy,there I was sat watching the Corbyn Comic saga and just about to enjoy perusing a vintage issue of 'Rustler readers Wives' sexmas special when I look up and there is the Jew hater sharing a Podium with Kamila I'mafatuselesssmellyfart ex of that well known grooming club for future antichrists alias kids company. There was I thinking she was living out of the bins having been excorcised from society,now how wrong I was she has re invented herself as a corbynite! Quell horreur!
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Anyway, like I was saying, it's never happen under Malcolm Butler.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/when-the-news-agenda-is-derailed?bftwuk&utm_term=.jip5l8r95G#.bvb9L6OV9Q
I wonder what Seamus Milne actually does for a living?
Well he doesn't book train seats. Was this train 'full'? Were there people (other than Corbyn) sitting/standing in the aisle/doorway? Did Corbyn sit with them? Did the train staff then 'find' seats for these people? Is someone being disingenous here?
Is that the same Alan White who is the drummer with Yes? Looks younger in his photo there?
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I've been trying to work out who Malcolm Butler is...don't you mean Malcolm Tucker?
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I do mean Malcolm Tucker. Kind of knackered the entire aim of the message hasn't it?
For some reason, Andy Butler kept coming to mind. I can imagine him doing Tucker-esque monologues at half time when we're shit.
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Anyway, like I was saying, it's never happen under Malcolm Butler.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alanwhite/when-the-news-agenda-is-derailed?bftwuk&utm_term=.jip5l8r95G#.bvb9L6OV9Q
I wonder what Seamus Milne actually does for a living?
Well he doesn't book train seats. Was this train 'full'? Were there people (other than Corbyn) sitting/standing in the aisle/doorway? Did Corbyn sit with them? Did the train staff then 'find' seats for these people? Is someone being disingenous here?
Wilts.
Corbyn doesn't book his own seats. You raise a good point.
See, Corbyn was on very strong ground with the basic thrust of the point he was making. Railway privatisation is economically sensible, socially desirable and electorally popular. What could go wrong with hitting on that theme?
Trouble is, the way its been handled, he comes across at best as someone who is surrounded by a chaotically amateurish private office who can't even book the prospective PM a seat on a train for an appointment that they've know about for several weeks, or at worst, a liar. At the very least, an open goal has been badly miscued.
And that is the point. That is the main point I've been making for 12 months about Corbyn. It doesn't MATTER if you are right on the substance. If you f**k up on the impression (which is all that most people ever see in politics) then you are unelectable.
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TFFT - I googled Malcolm Butler at least 3 times and came up with feck all. I felt certain that you were referring to Tucker, as all I came up with was some Yank football player and the former chairman of Comac.
Oddly enough, an old friend posted this on Facebook not long ago: "Now a word from today's sponsors. The good people at Tucker's Law. Google them!"
Must be something in the water.
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f**k me lads. It's not the Zapruder tapes is it?
Is it really so hard to believe that a man who regularly uses trains and buses occasionally finds himself on a packed one and decided to use this one to illustrate a pertinent point, and shortly after doing so was shuffled into another seat? That's dead simple and logical isn't it? BST, as this forum's number one proponent of Occam's Razor I'd have thought you'd have the sense to f**k this story off immediately.
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I've never had to stand on the east coast mainline. Maybe I'm just better at cooking seats....
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Macho
If he was trying to make a pertinent point, it would have been better to do it on a train that actually WAS packed.
The most excruciatingly embarrassing aspect of this story is the explanation from one source that the seats that appeared empty in one CCTV shot actually had bags and coats on them. Let's just have a think about that. The man who would be our representative in the world, the man who aspires to dealing with Putin and Clinton and Xi Jinping doesn't have the balls to ask someone to move a bag off a seat so that he can sit down?
I am using Occam's Razor by the way. This most likely story is really very simple. The train was busy but not packed. Some bell end of an aide thought "Hey, we can make a really great point here if we get Jezza to crouch disconsolately outside the shitters and be really, like, down with the people who are oppressed by the capitalist overlords" and didn't actually think it through.
And the responses on here absolutely nail the point I've been making since Corbyn was elected. 20% of the people in the country will love him, believe his every word and absolutely refuse to countenance any failure in him. The other 80% will do facepalms every time his name is mentioned.
The Twitter kids will convince themselves that this is the Establishment stitching Corbyn up because he is going to destroy them. But it's not. It's Corbyn stitching himself up. He's had 12 months of not needing to be attacked by the Tories because he's done such a brilliant job for them of looking like an incompetent buffoon.
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Surely if the train was full it would reflect the popularity of the railways. Filming an empty train might have been more representative of the re-nationalisation supporters.
Just a thought, like.
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I have to say this thread has caused me considerable mirth in what has been a bit of a shitty week so far so many thanks to all who have contributed and please keep it up.
Two points not related to the main thrust at all.
1. Kudos to Sproty for spotting that odious fraud Camilla Batman-robin trying to muscle in with Corbyn. Although to be fair such is her need to get her snout in the taxpayer-funded trough again that if Smith wins she'll be first on the phone to congratulate him.
2. The idea of Andy "Malcolm" Butler saying anything of benefit at half time is rather contradicted by last season's events. It is possible that he or others might have said something under the old regime, though I get the impression that once Dickov had run out of his usual platitudes they all stared at the floor praying for the bell to summon them back onto the field. Now they will have the sermon from the tactical genius that is DF, with no opportunity to get further than "but, boss..." before he launches off on another tangent.
If only someone had said "are you going to carry on letting this pile of **** make you look like pub players?" the last 12 months might have been very different.
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Anyone ever tried to get a seat off one of these passive aggressive Kitsons' who put their bags on the seat? And you know what that shaggy haired air-guitarist Branson did? He only took the fooking windows off the old intercity-125s didn't he. So now when you're stood up your jailed-in against the pulsating gust of a thousand shits emanating from the toilets. The air in those virgin trains is rancid capitalist stench.
When us trots take over this will all change. The air will be fresh and one seat for all will mean one seat for all.
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Sorry, I meant the air will have a faint smell of lentils to engender a sense of togetherness.
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PS. Interesting to see the Daily Fail sticking the boot into Corbyn today. They usually only attack Labour leaders if they think they have a chance of winning a GE. (QV Ed Miliband's dad.)
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A friend of mine just nailed it:
If only people were as concerned with the state of UK's rail services, as they appear to be with whether or not Corbyn slightly misrepresented a scenario highlighting the unquestionably poor state of the UK's rail services. #TrainGate
I'm no fan of Corbyn, but this continued attack on him for every little thing that he does kind of makes me think that the establishment and media fear him. I have no idea why they fear him, but a little bit of me warms to him every single time they attack him.
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Which would be an interesting point, BST, if it didn't ignore the fact that there were numerous other people sat on the floor during the train journey, which has not been disputed by Virgin. Presumably these people are just devout members of the cult of Corbyn who would gladly forgo a seat to crouch outside the shitter talking about nuclear disarmament and fair trade goods with Jez.
Also, polite social etiquette/desire to keep your head down on a train as a public figure =/= being crap at international relations.
I can't believe I'm even discussing this. Interestingly, Virgin could be in hot water for inappropriately releasing CCTV footage, though.
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They usually only attack Labour leaders if they think they have a chance of winning a GE.
Don't tell stubbsy, he'll have to put double shifts in.
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Could it be that it was just a ploy by Corbyn to get more seats?
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Fill yer boots conspiracy theorists. Fill yer boots:
"Amazing, too, that it happened to be released by a company that gets handed hundreds of millions in profit by the taxpayer on the very day the NHS 7-day disaster was released, thus relegating it from the headlines. And, what's this? Virgin Healthcare also destined to be handed hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers' money if no one notices how much the NHS is being ripped apart?"
Interesting discussion by some of my left-leaning chums on Facebook. Up to my neck in work, and my brain can hardly function at the moment as it's hotter than Satan's codpiece here in Dorset.
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Copps
I'd have the railways nationalised tomorrow. The Govt-run East Coast service was a perfect example of how well it could be run in public hands.
But that's not the issue here. The issue is having a Labour leader who doesn't land a haymaker on his own f**king chin every time he swings a punch.
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Just to stir the tureen a little further, I notice that prospective defender of public rights, Mr Smith, when faced with the choice of believing a rail passenger (and a Labour Parry member at that) or the rail company in this dispute, he came down on the side of big business.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048
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Storm in a teacup, considering the other stuff going on in Syria and the like.
In response to the point about pre-booking, would there not be a security aspect to consider in advertising the service a polititian would use? Would you trust the uncompromised integrity of the Virgin online booking system?
It would give the media, and other hostile interests (such as Virgin) a heads up to plan various interventions to suit. Probably best avoided, as far as possible.
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If I bought four advance tickets would I have to provide the names if it was for four adults paying full price?
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I don't think I've ever entered a virgin but from what I've been told they provide as good an experience, if not better than anyone.
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Just to stir the tureen a little further, I notice that prospective defender of public rights, Mr Smith, when faced with the choice of believing a rail passenger (and a Labour Parry member at that) or the rail company in this dispute, he came down on the side of big business.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048
Wilts
I think that's called "evidence-based decision making."
You appear to be hinting that faith-based decision making would be preferable.
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Considering every report I've seen from the passengers on that train backs up Corbyn's version of events, I'd say it's making an evidence-based assumption that just ignores all the evidence you don't like. Which is quite amusing given that Corbyn supporters love doing that, apparently.
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Was it Corbyn supporters who were dressed as empty seats in the video then? That might explain it.
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Macho
How many reports from passengers have you read? And how many reports from passengers equal one clear photograph?
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Well he was on Chanel 5 news at tea time and admitted that there were plenty of seats but not two for him to sit with his missus.
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Sproty.
So he did.
https://youtu.be/YWwGkzTdUOQ
Although fascinatingly, when he was videoed sat outside the shitter, he was reading Private Eye rather than talking to his wife.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-walks-through-packed-carriage-during-11-august-train-trip-video
And then, in that video from today, he gets stroppy with journalists asking questions about traingate instead of ones about the NHS.
f**k me sideways! What about this does he not get? HE has made HIMSELF the story by stupid, stupid, stupid, ill-thought out childishness. He's in a job where it is HIS responsibility to get his political message across. He doesn't do that because he is utterly out of his depth. He's spent his career being in rooms where people agree with him and he seems genuinely bemused by why people would want to talk about a clusterf**k of a story about train seats instead of really important things.
God f**king help the Labour Party.
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Well he was on Chanel 5 news at tea time and admitted that there were plenty of seats but not two for him to sit with his missus.
Bonus, should have had to pay extra.
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Just to stir the tureen a little further, I notice that prospective defender of public rights, Mr Smith, when faced with the choice of believing a rail passenger (and a Labour Parry member at that) or the rail company in this dispute, he came down on the side of big business.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048
Wilts
I think that's called "evidence-based decision making."
You appear to be hinting that faith-based decision making would be preferable.
Well there you go. An edited company video that doesn't show the area where Corbyn is sitting proves that Virgin trains are not overcrowded. Sorted for their franchise renewal next year then.
You appear to have missed what I am actually hinting at is that Smith is too close to big business. By not asking for independent evidence, the witness mentioned in the Guardian, the train manager who found the seats for Corbyn, the people who moved for him, anyone else on the train, anyone who uses that service line, then it's 'faith-based' that their 'facts' tell the whole story.
But if you and Owen are happy with that, fair enough.
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Wilts
You can cut the conspiracy theorising. And the muddying of the water by changing the argument from the particular to the general. Corbyn himself has said that there WERE empty seats. That's all that the issue has ended up being about. Because, through quite exemplary incompetence, he has turned an issue which should be one of his very strongest cards into an utter clusterf**k.
Chuck the spade away. Move on.
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For the Corbynistas in here.
Please, PLEASE read this:
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1177
It's long, but if you have any interest whatsoever in the issue, if you are genuinely interested in being challenged, rather than comforted in your opinions, read this. And then think about it. Think about it A LOT.
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Corbyn for a man of his age seems immature. He is still acting as though he is a student protesting against everything. He is supposed to be labour leader and alternative to tory rule.
Ed miliband was much more electable than this guy. They have gone backwards and recruited somebody who has less chance of being the man in power, when the votes are counted up when election time is with us.
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For the Corbynistas in here.
Please, PLEASE read this:
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1177
It's long, but if you have any interest whatsoever in the issue, if you are genuinely interested in being challenged, rather than comforted in your opinions, read this. And then think about it. Think about it A LOT.
Labour are probably shafted - at best, for a decade and, at worst, permanently. This is because they are currently the only truly UK-wide party. In order to ever win an election again, they would have to regain seats in Scotland from the SNP, from the Tories in the South of England, as well as defend seats against Plaid Cymru in Wales, UKIP in the North and the Liberal Democrats in urban areas.
Goes against what you said the other day when you threw your toys out. Bit silly that wasn't it.
If the PLP managed to overthrow Corbyn, the party would have a (admittedly, slim) chance at being both competent and united
So, ultimately best to stick with the most electable figure on the left of British politics then, eh?
Corbyn must be ousted at all costs. Everything else can be fixed later
If this is the rational, pro-intellectual, anti-fanaticism voice of reason speaking then, I'm sorry, I'll personally leave it. 'Everything can be fixed later' OK. Right.
You can't skirt round there being no-alternative. You end up looking silly, like writing a broadly well researched article with a conclusion that doesn't address the premise. This is very important stuff we are dealing with. You can't reject your best hope in return for nihilism.
I think the fella who wrote this article probably needs to get off twitter. You're not going to get any fair representation of the people Corbyn appeals to on there.
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I would also add, those who have ever used phrases such as 'entryist', 'trotskyist scum', 'Isslington socialist, 'cardboard comrades', 'Corbynistas', 'loony left' , or indeed all of the above have equally got a duty to see beyond their prejudices and challenge themselves on their beliefs.
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Never mind Jeremy Corbyn’s journey – what matters is that privatisation has been a train wreck (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/24/floor-first-class-railways-jeremy-corbyn-privatisation-train)
You have to think; why would Virgin, a private rail company, want to embarrass Corbyn? hmmm....
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Sproty.
So he did.
https://youtu.be/YWwGkzTdUOQ
Although fascinatingly, when he was videoed sat outside the shitter, he was reading Private Eye rather than talking to his wife.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-walks-through-packed-carriage-during-11-august-train-trip-video
And then, in that video from today, he gets stroppy with journalists asking questions about traingate instead of ones about the NHS.
f**k me sideways!
God f**king help the Labour Party.
I wonder if "couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery" will be replaced with "couldn't find seats in a train with lots of them" as the ultimate abuse of someone incapable of walking and chewing gum,a four year old would beat that clown at musical chairs!Mind you Smith,good grief with his second referendum idea,the greatest recruiting sergeant for UKIP
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Copps
You want to be taken seriously. You want to not be the target is easy slurs. But then everything you say on this subject DOES have the air of a zealot and a believer, deaf to any other arguments.
The biggest example in your recent post is your use of the TINA argument (back to the 80s again, eh?) There is ALWAYS an alternative. It is the stance of the zealot to argue TINA (and yes, I know that Wilts has said there's no debate to be had, but he's an old leftie having a mid-life crisis).
Consider. If, 18 months ago, someone had claimed that an obscure backbencher would be chosen as leader of the Labour Party and the membership would treble. You'd have been laughed out of court.
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BJW
No. You have to think, with such an obviously positive issue for him to work on, how could Team Corbyn f**k up the media management so badly?
THAT is the issue at the heart of this. Of course vested interests are going to argue from the other side. Which is why you e got to be professional in the way you deal with it. Chucking your hands up and saying "It's not fair. They're playing hard," is no f**king use.
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The good thing about this forum is people can go back and read your 13 month tirade against Corbyn and similarly go back and read my posts on Smith and decide for themselves who the zealot is.
I've made my political views clear, you've made absolutely nothing clear other than you don't want Corbyn. Trivial or important, you take every opportunity to rip him a new arsehole. You don't discriminate the people you are arguing against - you are happy to argue with people who aren't even Corbyn supporters. It's all rhetorical in your head. You don't discriminate between matters which are trivial or important. You've convinced yourself this train affair has significance for the population at large.
In between all this, you've said you agree with many of Corbyn's policies and he has a sound economic plan. You join the ranks of Eagle and Smith who have made similar comments. The latter of which I really quite like in terms of his policy ideas and I hope he plays an important part in Labour's future. Yet YOU continue this unending vitriol with a seemingly oblivious lack of ability to engage anyone without first insulting them.
At first I probably thought it was worth putting in a defense of Corbyn but with you it's pointless. You completely train wreck over all of that. Deal with the dilemmas you've got to deal with.
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Macho
I've just been on a train from Sheffield to Manchester. There were 6 vacant seats in my carriage. There were three people stood in the vestibule.
People, eh?
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Macho
I've just been on a train from Sheffield to Manchester. There were 6 vacant seats in my carriage. There were three people stood in the vestibule.
People, eh?
I wonder if choosing to stand up on a train (or sit in the vestibule) when seats are available will be known in future as "doing a Corbyn?"
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Macho
Really. Honestly, in your heart of hearts, do you think Corbyn has handled this well? Really?
Because, when you look at the opinions of people who have actually worked with Corbyn and McDonnell, other than the select group of very close supporters (Core Group Plus, wasn't it?) very few of the have much praise for their professionalism.
Take Prof Simon Wren-Lewis as an example. A leading authority on macro-economics. A very strongly left-wing commentator. An ardent and consistent critic of Austerity. He was jubilant at Corbyn's election. He saw it as a breath of fresh air. He was invited by McDonnell to be an economic adviser. He resigned after the Brexit disaster and he's horrified by how unwilling to listen, sloppy and unprepared the Corbyn inner circle was.
Try today's missive from him.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/why-corbyns-brexit-campaign-matters.html?m=1
There are plenty more.
I just do not get this passionate cleaving to the Corbyn legend that is being displayed by so many people. Or maybe I do. They need someone to reinforce their views. Corbyn does that. He makes them feel vindicated. And as a result, they are prepared to totally ignore the mounting rap sheet of incompetence and self-inflicted wounds. And they will criticise anyone who points out these failings as a traitor to the cause.
It's a mistake of quite staggering proportions, being made by a few hundred thousand people who are determined to ignore what is manifestly obvious to the rest of the country.
Traingate is a classic example of this. Corbyn makes an ill judged public announcement, trying some off the cuff smartness based on the experience of the actual train he was travelling on rather than sticking to the (very valid) general point. He gets called out. After a couple of days of media kerfuffle, he, tetchily admits that there WERE vacant seats on the train. He, tetchily complains at the media for focusing on the trivial instead of the substantive point. And STILL Corbyn believers insist that he's been right all along and it's the nasty big boys who are not playing fair.
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Macho
I've just been on a train from Sheffield to Manchester. There were 6 vacant seats in my carriage. There were three people stood in the vestibule.
People, eh?
I wonder if choosing to stand up on a train (or sit in the vestibule) when seats are available will be known in future as "doing a Corbyn?"
I have been reading today's updates whilst having a good 'Corbyn' :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :turd: :thumbsup:
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Sproty.
So he did.
https://youtu.be/YWwGkzTdUOQ
Although fascinatingly, when he was videoed sat outside the shitter, he was reading Private Eye rather than talking to his wife.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-walks-through-packed-carriage-during-11-august-train-trip-video
And then, in that video from today, he gets stroppy with journalists asking questions about traingate instead of ones about the NHS.
f**k me sideways!
God f**king help the Labour Party.
I wonder if "couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery" will be replaced with "couldn't find seats in a train with lots of them" as the ultimate abuse of someone incapable of walking and chewing gum,a four year old would beat that clown at musical chairs!Mind you Smith,good grief with his second referendum idea,the greatest recruiting sergeant for UKIP
💩 And Smith both remind me of the centre fold of a well known gentlemans periodical from the late 70's 😝
And they could both do with a dammed good 'Air rushing' 😂
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Cops is magic...You need to spend some time in a real socialist 'Paradise' North Korea springs to mind!👍🏻
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I'm on the train back from Manchester to Sheffield right now. I've counted 17 free seats in this carriage and there's still someone standing in the vestibule.
What do you make of that? I reckon there's a case for Martial Law to be imposed.
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Copps
You want to be taken seriously. You want to not be the target is easy slurs. But then everything you say on this subject DOES have the air of a zealot and a believer, deaf to any other arguments.
The biggest example in your recent post is your use of the TINA argument (back to the 80s again, eh?) There is ALWAYS an alternative. It is the stance of the zealot to argue TINA (and yes, I know that Wilts has said there's no debate to be had, but he's an old leftie having a mid-life crisis).
Consider. If, 18 months ago, someone had claimed that an obscure backbencher would be chosen as leader of the Labour Party and the membership would treble. You'd have been laughed out of court.
Anyone got a Porsche for sale....or a Pinarello?
I still believe that, more than ever. All the 'debate' is doing both on this forum and the wider world, is entrenching each side deeper in their views. And whatever the result the aftermath will still divide the Labour Party. If Corbyn wins there is no way either you or the PLP will ever fully support him. If he looses then his supporters will be looking to take it out on the PLP.
The divide will take years to heal and will need a strong and visionary leader to do it. My guess is either Sadiq Khan or Andy Burnham, depending on how each of them fair in their mayoralities.
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Wilts
You'd be better advised using your eyes rather than your opinions. I've said clearly on this very thread that I will vote Labour in 2020.
If you're looking for the people who split the Left, you need to look closer to home.
But yes, I agree with your general point. Things are far too far gone for Labour to be able to come back quickly. The question is: what Labour Party will face the country in 2025?
Burnham will never be leader. Not with the current membership. Sadiq Khan isn't a bad bet. But I suspect it's more likely to be Clive Lewis.
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For the non lefties amongst us it is quite amusing. The whole campaign is a farce really...
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For the non lefties amongst us it is quite amusing. The whole campaign is a farce really...
Quite, and the fact that there's a leadership challenge happening at all is the crux of the reason Corbyn is a bad leader. A shambles like this would never have happened under someone who knows how to lead (and manage) a party properly.
Could you seriously imagine anything like this happen under Harold Wilson, despite people in his Cabinet absolutely detesting him (especially Roy Jenkins, who said in one of his books somewhere that the loathing was mutual)? And that at a time when the Labour Party was an even broader church than it is now, being a home for people even further left- and right-wing than it is now.
Yes, the current PLP was antipathetical to Corbyn from the start. However, he has had nearly a year to do something about bringing them round (as a good party leader should with ANY faction of the party he leads) - and he's done absolutely bugger all about it, by all accounts. If anything, he's pissed even more of them off in the time he's had by being difficult for MPs to even get to talk to or dismissive of them if they were lucky enough to get to do so. That is NOT being a good party leader.
Corbyn does have an important part to play in the Labour movement - but it's as the conscience of the party; their Jiminy Cricket if you like - NOT their leader.
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You summed it up perfectly there Glynn.
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Smith has said he's 'labour till he dies' and doesn't support a split so presumably we are to take him on his word on that. I think Clive Lewis talks a lot of sense, but the last interview I heard from him he is behind Corbyn (but is very pragmatic on the matter).
I think both sides don't want a split because they both believe they are the rightful heirs to the labour party. And they are right. What they need to reconcile is that it is a natural part of democracy for competing perspectives to be heard within the same arena. It's not something to fear. I enjoy the lively political debate that is going on, and would ultimately like to hear competing perspectives from people who have something to say other than 'anything but Corbyn' and 'we'll deal with it later'.
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Copps.
Personally, I'd like to hear what is really wanted by people who appear ready to die for Corbyn, but who, when asked what policies they want to see enacted, come up with nothing that was radical for the Balls/Miliband ticket.
From my perspective, I'll tell you what I want, in clear order:
1) A sane macro-economic policy. Sort this out (and it's easily sortable) and most of the other problems shrink in size. This is Problem No1. McDonnell understands what to do. But so did Balls, with better understanding of the detail. It appears that even Hammond now gets it. Maybe that argument (one I've been going at full tilt for 7 years) is finally won.
2) A reversal of the 40 year drift of wealth to the wealthiest. I want to see income disparities which (disgracefully) rose under Blair after rocketing under Thatcher/Major, reined back.
3) A foreign policy that, whilst not being adventurous, seriously addresses the threat to European stability that Putin poses. After the economic stupidity of the past decade, this is the biggest threat to our futures.
4) A massive expansion of social housing (as an obvious corollary to 1).
Everything else is secondary. These are the major, first order issues affecting the country. I want a Govt that can a) be elected and b) put those policies into action.
What do YOU want?
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The social housing issue should drive the building sector with so many unemployed tradesmen available.
The money on wages and materials would filter back into local economies and the money raised from taxation and benefit savings would fund more projects. I know that it's not that simple but surely we should have our best brains working on kick starting this sector. It could also spur apprenticeships to get more of our young working.
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Apropos the housing problem...whenever you see houses being built these days, has anybody ever seen anyone building terraced housing any more? When the country is crying out for low-cost housing and with the space to do so at a premium, you'd think there'd be more of a push to throw up more terraces...
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It could also be a chance to build on brownfield sites and regenerate areas without altering the water table or creating drainage problems.
Every construction worker taken off benefits and put on wages is effectively cheap labour in one sense.
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Where i live, we have had a small estate of low cost terrace houses built , and they have all been bought by private landlords for rental.First time buyers had no chance to buy them.
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We've regressed 100 years by going back to the old rip off landlord system. It's tantamount to ticket touting, although that seems to cause a bigger outcry for some ridiculous reason.
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Thats true,one landlord actually bought 6 of these houses.
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The worst of it all is that 95% of housing benefits (roughly £25bn per year) go to helping people pay their rent. So we're paying for our own mistakes. We're probably 3 million houses in total short in this country. The private sector has consistently not built enough houses to meet demand.
The private rental sector is diverse - there is a place for renting but some elements such as letting agencies we can do away with immediately. Their practices are medieval, I've experienced it myself. Renters in this country pay a higher percentage of their income on rent than in any other European country.
We should be thoroughly fed up with the platitudes successive governments have made to 'building new houses' and the way in which we've denied a generation the fundamental right to own their own home.
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Technically the house I bought last year on a new build estate is a terrace and there's still some houses for sale here too. Plenty of social housing on the estate as well.
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Bloody hell the press have got their knives into the Corbinystas latest story is Sam Tarry fiddling his address so he can stand as a councilor. In Barking when he actually lives in Brighton.
Three months in jail for him if it's true.
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Well THAT's upped the ante somewhat!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-calls-richard-branson-stripped-8719591
Apparently, if you question Corbyn, you are "undermining democracy".
Course, this couldn't possibly be McDonnell playing mood music to the starry-eyed Corbynistas to cement his and Corbyn's hold on the party, whilst not worrying too much how utterly f**king stupid this sounds to the rest of the country, could it?
New Politics eh?
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Epic PR own goal from the bearded tax exile Branson, and it looks like he might have committed an offense by inappropriate use of CCTV footage;
Virgin Trains 'broke own rules by releasing Jeremy Corbyn CCTV' | UK Politics | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains-traingate-cctv-release-broke-rules-labour-leadership-election-a7214786.html)
You would have thought his legal team would have intervened to stop him early, but when a bloke sees his cash cow under threat sense goes out the window.
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Epic PR own goal from the bearded tax exile Branson, and it looks like he might have committed an offense by inappropriate use of CCTV footage;
Virgin Trains 'broke own rules by releasing Jeremy Corbyn CCTV' | UK Politics | News | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-virgin-trains-traingate-cctv-release-broke-rules-labour-leadership-election-a7214786.html)
You would have thought his legal team would have intervened to stop him early, but when a bloke sees his cash cow under threat sense goes out the window.
So they MAY have broke their own rules! Well they haven't broken the Data Protection Act. It's a real non story!
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Well THAT's upped the ante somewhat!
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/labour-calls-richard-branson-stripped-8719591
Apparently, if you question Corbyn, you are "undermining democracy".
Course, this couldn't possibly be McDonnell playing mood music to the starry-eyed Corbynistas to cement his and Corbyn's hold on the party, whilst not worrying too much how utterly f**king stupid this sounds to the rest of the country, could it?
New Politics eh?
Was this article written on a used toilet roll by some leftie twit and then not even edited? chucking Sir Philip Green into the wash waters down the legitimate case against him and causes any reader with a reading age of over 13 to cringe.
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The social housing issue should drive the building sector with so many unemployed tradesmen available.
The money on wages and materials would filter back into local economies and the money raised from taxation and benefit savings would fund more projects. I know that it's not that simple but surely we should have our best brains working on kick starting this sector. It could also spur apprenticeships to get more of our young working.
Oh yes there will be plenty of 'filtering' I have no doubt about that. social housing contracts used to be real Goldmine.
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Unfortunately where public money is concerned there are always some that will spend or misuse it without a conscience.
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Just to stir the tureen a little further, I notice that prospective defender of public rights, Mr Smith, when faced with the choice of believing a rail passenger (and a Labour Parry member at that) or the rail company in this dispute, he came down on the side of big business.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048
Wilts
I think that's called "evidence-based decision making."
You appear to be hinting that faith-based decision making would be preferable.
Well there you go. An edited company video that doesn't show the area where Corbyn is sitting proves that Virgin trains are not overcrowded. Sorted for their franchise renewal next year then.
You appear to have missed what I am actually hinting at is that Smith is too close to big business. By not asking for independent evidence, the witness mentioned in the Guardian, the train manager who found the seats for Corbyn, the people who moved for him, anyone else on the train, anyone who uses that service line, then it's 'faith-based' that their 'facts' tell the whole story.
But if you and Owen are happy with that, fair enough.
Are you still believing the Guardian version of event Wilts? Despite the real facts behind who wrote it being outed?
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Are you still believing the Guardian version of event Wilts? Despite the real facts behind who wrote it being outed?
Thanks for the info Glyn. If you could be helpful and point out where they are wrong and what the 'real facts' are that would be useful. This is the latest version I could find:
Amid a deluge of social media speculation about who was telling the truth, it eventually emerged that both sides actually agreed about much of the convoluted narrative.
On Wednesday, Corbyn confirmed there had been some available seats, but not two together, and that he was hoping to sit next to his wife.
As a series of passengers came forward to confirm they, too, had not been able to find seats at the start of the trip, Virgin trains agreed the service had been busy, and that they had been making a very specific point about some seats being free.
One of the problems appeared to be passengers not sitting in seats that had been reserved by other people who did not get on the train. About 45 minutes into the three-hour trip, train staff moved people into free seats to clear some of the blockages.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/25/traingate-latest-jeremy-corbyn-gets-seat-on-glasgow-virgin-service
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Wilts
There's really only one germane point there.
"On Wednesday, Corbyn confirmed there had been some available seats, but not two together, and that he was hoping to sit next to his wife."
Which raises the question: what the f**k was he thinking being videoed saying "the train is ram packed," and starting the whole shit storm?
Oh, hang on. I've got it!
It's got f**k all to do with presenting yourself as a sensible, electable politician to the country as a whole. It's all about impressing the passionate newcomers to the Labour Party, in order to make damn sure he gets re-elected, the new membership re-writes the rules of how the party works and we all march off to the inevitable socialist paradise.
It suddenly all makes sense.
Mind, I had to chuckle at Corbyn's comments at the Edinburgh Festival last week. He was being interviewed about his love of classical music (which is fine - no class issues there). But then it seemed to dawn on him that it probably wouldn't play well with the Momentum mob. It was toe-curling stuff.
He'd just said that he liked "pretty heavy classical music," then followed up with, “I do enjoy Mahler, but I recognise that there is lots of other music — brass band music."
Right on Jezza. Cos, like, all the oppressed proletariat Oop North are extras from Brassed Off.
f**k me...
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Are you still believing the Guardian version of event Wilts? Despite the real facts behind who wrote it being outed?
Thanks for the info Glyn. If you could be helpful and point out where they are wrong and what the 'real facts' are that would be useful. This is the latest version I could find:
Amid a deluge of social media speculation about who was telling the truth, it eventually emerged that both sides actually agreed about much of the convoluted narrative.
On Wednesday, Corbyn confirmed there had been some available seats, but not two together, and that he was hoping to sit next to his wife.
As a series of passengers came forward to confirm they, too, had not been able to find seats at the start of the trip, Virgin trains agreed the service had been busy, and that they had been making a very specific point about some seats being free.
One of the problems appeared to be passengers not sitting in seats that had been reserved by other people who did not get on the train. About 45 minutes into the three-hour trip, train staff moved people into free seats to clear some of the blockages.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/25/traingate-latest-jeremy-corbyn-gets-seat-on-glasgow-virgin-service
Well, the first real fact that I've been made aware of is that the original article was written by someone using an alias. Someone that was a former SWP member who joined the Labour Party last year to vote for Corbyn, and was on the train helping make a documentary about Corbyn.
The byline on the original article was 'Charles B Anthony' - a name that has apparently never written for the Guardian before. But that's just an alias of Anthony Casey- a man who proclaims Jeremy Corbyn as 'his saviour' and made a campaign video for Corbyn's original leadership bid last year. He also reveres George Galloway, with whom he hosted an event at Shoreditch House this year.
Makes you wonder why he used an alias, doesn't it..? Is this the 'New Politics' too?
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And "Charles B Anthony" had a tweet out yesterday.
"#Traingate made Jeremy Corbyn more popular with supporters, new poll finds." (My emphasis)
Job done then Chas, eh? You little entryist tinker.
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And "Charles B Anthony" had a tweet out yesterday.
"#Traingate made Jeremy Corbyn more popular with supporters, new poll finds." (My emphasis)
Job done then Chas, eh? You little entryist tinker.
So a poll shows he's more popular with the already converted? Wow.
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It's shameful isn't it? They're playing with the future of a nation, of 60 million people. And given the sainted Jeremy's view of NATO's collective, they're even playing with the future of a continent if not three. I'm starting to have a sort of shamefaced secret hope that Labour ends up with about 80 MP's after the next election. And that is making me angry and sad and ashamed.
Bob
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I've just read another blog article that's gone viral among the Corbynistas.
https://opendemocracy.net/uk/ian-k-ellard/only-way-to-purge-labour-s-morbid-symptoms-vote-for-jeremy-corbyn
Yet another piece from a young Labour activist which starts from the premise that the past Labour Govt were effectively Tories.
THIS is what happens when you spend your life talking to people who agree with you and back-slapping each other for saying such words of wisdom. Analysis goes out the window. Certain "facts" are taken as unchallengeable axioms. And you build your entire world view from there.
So you ignore the fact that Labour's approach to the Great Recession blunted the worst effects and saved maybe 1.5m jobs. You ignore the fact that the difference between Labour's spending plans from 2010-2020 and those of the Govt that we got would have been north of £200bn, and that this would have had a huge effect on the speed of our recovery. You ignore the fact that we could have had an entirely different outcome if a quarter of a million people on the Left had voted differently in 2010.
You ignore all that, because a) it doesn't fit with your world view, b) no-one you talk to mentions it and c) the story that you tell instead gets you plaudits by the thousand.
As Wilts says, there's no debate to be had. And that is why this party is destroying itself as an electable force.
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Hark at the numpties hitting an easy target,badly needed a Labour leader that can knock the shit out of Jimmy Krankies second referendum,or is that a third idea ,any clues who?
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Hark at the numpties hitting an easy target,badly needed a Labour leader that can knock the shit out of Jimmy Krankies second referendum,or is that a third idea ,any clues who?
We badly needed a Labour leader that could knock the shit out of Boris and Nigel at the last referendum but we didn't bloody get one.
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That's very true Sad. Sadly. I cannot remember a time, in over 50 years now, where the Labour Party has contained so few competant people. Right now it has neither politicians nor speech makers nor rabble rousers nor visionaries - other than the one who is rapidly destroying the party. It doesn't even have any thugs left either - other than those engaged with the Destructive Tendancy.
Cheers
BobG
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Hark at the numpties hitting an easy target,badly needed a Labour leader that can knock the shit out of Jimmy Krankies second referendum,or is that a third idea ,any clues who?
We badly needed a Labour leader that could knock the shit out of Boris and Nigel at the last referendum but we didn't bloody get one.
Who would you suggest? I can't think of a single Labour MP that'd land a single blow on either Boris or Farage, never mind "knock the shit out of em".
I'd have settled for one that at least tried.
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I'm starting to have a sort of shamefaced secret hope that Labour ends up with about 80 MP's after the next election. And that is making me angry and sad and ashamed.
Strange, bst is usually very quick to point out the implications of this type of thinking but he appears to have passed up this particular opportunity.
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Good job he's keeping it a secret, there'd be hell on if he revealed those thoughts to anyone.
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I'm starting to have a sort of shamefaced secret hope that Labour ends up with about 80 MP's after the next election. And that is making me angry and sad and ashamed.
Strange, bst is usually very quick to point out the implications of this type of thinking but he appears to have passed up this particular opportunity.
The way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if there's only 80 Labour MPs before the next election.
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That's one possibility. Not one I think will happen personally. It's one thing predicting that and one thing wishing that will happen I'm sure you'd agree?
What troubles me also Glynn is how a man supposedly overseeing the slow decline and inevitably death of the Labour party into political obscurity is also a major threat to world (well, three continents of it at least) peace?
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And so it goes on Copps.
Still not a single sensible, substantive comment from you to explain your support for Corbyn. Still no engagement with any of the core issues raised in these threads. Just joining in with this bizarre meme that there's some clique here that has a love in and never disagrees.
I thought you were a bit cleverer than that, what with your ability to quote Gramsci and all that, but I might have been overestimating you.
Whatever turns you on I suppose.
Since you raise it, I never noticed Bob's post before now. I disagree with it almost entirely. I want Labour to get 350 seats at the next election. I'll be out campaigning for that, just like I was in 2010 and 2015 and 1983 and 1987 and 1992, when you, presumably, had better things to do.
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What troubles me also Glynn is how a man supposedly overseeing the slow decline and inevitably death of the Labour party into political obscurity is also a major threat to world (well, three continents of it at least) peace?
How come it troubles you when I've not said anything of the sort?
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Bst,
It became pretty clear a few weeks ago that I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. I'm not really interested in getting in a discussion that will descend to the lowest common denominator. When I read silly stuff about his musical tastes and idiosyncrasies like the destruction of the planet without the ability to gain any power I feel compelled to get involved.
You don't do the discussions so far justice. 'Real issues' have been discussed.
I think we should increase the disability benefit budget, massive increase in public house building - probably council built and available for purchase (and I know who popularised that idea), I support strongly an overhaul of the private rental sector, I generally want a non-interventionist international policy which includes a critical assessment of the role of NATO in escalating tensions with Russia, I support the implementation of a minister for mental health and believe that office should have real and independent power. We've talked about all this stuff.
In addition, I think we should borrow more money to build infrastructure and create publicly funded jobs in the private sector. But I would do this with a very strong geographical focus. I would actually cut business taxes temporarily. 50p income tax rate seems to be generally accepted by all on the left. I would look to be progressive in other areas. I disagree with Owen Smith and Caroline Lucas calling for a second EU referendum. I take my queues from Yanis Varoufakis on this - 'once you're in, you don't leave. Once you're out, you don't join'. We're out. That's what the British public decided in a ridiculous vote but that's what they decided. The narrative should now shift to how we get the best leave deal for Britain. I would underwrite all EU funding for scientific/academic endeavors planned in the UK. I want a far more rapid policy of diversifying our energy supply.
I could go on but will save you an even longer list. Corbyn is strong in many of these areas IMO and speaks to people, I don't know fully how, but he does. Ultimately, there is a certain dogmatic element to supporting Corbyn, YES, because the coup and the way in which elements of the labour party have used every trick to deny a democratic decision is frankly a bit disgusting. I think Corbyn has a mandate to lead the labour party into the next general election and is currently the best chance the left has got.
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Copps
Your post makes my point for me.
The benefits and housing issues and public spending in general are (so far as I can see from Corbyn's statements) little different to Balls and Miliband. McDonnell came in with the policy that he would balance the current books and borrow for capital expenditure. Balls had said exactly the same. But McDonnell is lauded as a class hero and Balls as a Blatcherite traitor.
That's my point. That's my entire bloody point!
The axioms on which the stances of the Corbyn supporters are founding their decisions are flawed. It is accepted as an article of faith, to be unquestioned, that the previous incarnation of Labour was a betrayal of its class across the board. And THAT is why there is no discussion going on.
It scares me that the party has become a post-truth cult. The traingate issue is the perfect example. Corbyn himself (finally) admitted that there were empty seats, but STILL his supporters are waging their social media wars insisting that the train was the East Coast version of the Black Hole of Calcutta.
On the other issues: mental health prioritisation is a Lib Dem initiative that has (rightly) gained support across the spectrum.
NATO is a more substantive issue. I didn't see you say in any previous discussions where you stand, and to be honest, your current comment is a bit woolly. The really big one is Article V. Corbyn entirely avoided that issue last month you making fatuous comments about not wanting to get into that situation (as if anyone else does!) The big question is, how, from here and now, do you avoid getting into that situation?
What do you think we should do?
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Copps
By the way, your use of the word "coup" also makes my point. I'm sure, from your educational background, you appreciate the subtle power of language.
Describe the actions of 80% of the PLP as a "coup" (especially if coupled with the adjective "Blairite") and you've effectively closed down substantive debate. You've invalidated genuine concerns and criticisms about the Corbyn leadership. You've managed to turn the spotlight from his management, onto the nefarious aims of the other, treacherous, bas**rds.
Great politics. f**king useless if you are trying to have an intelligent debate to get to the truth.
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Does the little tinker still promiseto reopen the Pits every time he hit Donny?then when he is back in green territory renage on what he said to please the 'AirHeads'.
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I'm wondering when 'Mr Consistency' is going to re-introduce elections for the Shadow Cabinet...the abolition of which he vehemently opposed as being anti-democratic!
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Well, it looks like there's a plan for how Corbyn will re-unite the PLP after he's won. One of his senior colleagues is quoted in the New Statesman as saying, “If we show competence, that will bring some people back onside".
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/09/heal-and-settle-how-team-corbyn-hope-put-party-back-together-again
f**king genius!
Actually, and seriously, it's just possible that the penny has dropped. What snapped my patience with Corbyn was his ludicrously impotent, incompetent and self-indulgent showing in the EU Referendum campaign. 7 of of 10-ing and navel-gazing on some obscure progressive American website 36 hours before the polls opened, musing on the "strong and principled left-wing argument for leaving." The most important vote in our lifetimes and he was treating it like an Islington debating society instead of getting out there and giving a f**king LEAD!
If the events of this summer make Corbyn realise that leadership of the party carries certain performance expectations and comes with certain requirements (which he has abjectly failed to live up to in the first 12 months) then maybe that's the least-bad outcome.
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So reading that they have so far been wholly incompetent! Geez how thick can they really be😆
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Blaming Corbyn for Brexit, and the poor campaign by Remain, seems to me to miss the point, which is that it is what is reported that drives the narrative.
Here is a succinct review of the performance of the BBC;
How the BBC's obsession with balance took Labour off air ahead of Brexit (https://theconversation.com/how-the-bbcs-obsession-with-balance-took-labour-off-air-ahead-of-brexit-62393)
It does cause me to think what has passed under the bridge unnoticed while the feeding frenzy over unimportant trivia like "Traingate" consume the column inches.
A starter for 10 might be the proposed abolition of the Human Rights Acts, to be replaced by a British Bill of Rights drafted by public interest stalwart Michael Gove.
Another for the Labour family might be the exclusion of members from voting in the leadership elections, on dubious grounds of having said someting on social media that the NEC finds out of order.
All pointing one way, IMHO. Just saying, like!
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And at the same time there's Boris, who a couple of months ago was lying about pushing for £350m of the money supposedly being spent on the EU being spent on the NHS instead, now hypocritically enjoying himself as Foreign Secretary in a Government who is wanting to CUT the existing NHS budget!
Labour should be smacking him round the chops with this at every opportunity, whatever the issue at hand is, and what are we getting from the Labour leadership about this? I can't say that I've heard a peep out of them about it despite it being handed to them on a platter.
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Yes agreed Glyn, you would expect someone like Owen Smith with his background in PR in the Pharmaceutical Industry tto be right on top of it, doesn't look good for a prospective leader does it?
However Corbyn appears to have been busy, nearly sent the internet down with a speech on the NHS yesterday (it says on the link below) which you must have missed:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/24/jeremy-corbyn-nhs-tory-dismantling-conservatives-health-service
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-promise-renationalise-nhs-labour-private-end
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167256
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/05/jeremy-corbyn-lays-out-his-plan-for-the-nhs-in-under-a-minute/
Also relevant to your point I notice that Boris is now part of a Government that has rejected a Points Based immigration system - whilst looking forward to welcoming more Polish immigration into the UK. Funny old world.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/03/poland-urges-uk-to-keep-its-citizens-safe-from-xenophobia
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Albie
Complaining about the media is an indulgence that the Left frequently gives in to.
It's pointless. Unless you plan to nationalise the media and impose some sort of requirement for impartiality, then you have to deal with the media that you have.
Complaining, as that article does that:
Labour members canvassing in the streets and housing estates, waited in vain for the BBC – the country’s most trusted news source – to provide any serious analysis that could back up the Labour message on the doorstep
is utterly ridiculous. Part of the art of political leadership is to FORGE the media narrative. Set the agenda. Make it so that you cannot be ignored.
Mumbling, "7 out of 10" about the EU does not set the agenda.
Doing THIS on an obscuring American webcast in the week of the vote does not set the UK media agenda.
http://m.democracynow.org/stories/16321
Spending an evening, 36 hours before the vote, "going to the mosque in my constituency to join in the iftar supper," does not set the UK media agenda.
It is a self-indulgent dereliction of duty.
This is one of my biggest criticisms of Corbyn. He is NOT a leader. A leader doesn't give into self-indulgent navel gazing of this sort at a historic moment like that.
Or if the leader DOES behave like that, you have no right to criticise the media. Because you've given them nothing to report.
I was out canvassing in the week of the vote. My problem wasn't that the BBC hadn't given me a bone to chew. It was the fact that I could not put my hand on my heart and say what the Labour party's position was. And that is utterly, utterly unforgivable in politics.
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Wilts
I really used to respect your analysis. But when you post a quote from The Canary to support your argument, you've just slipped a long way down the ladder.
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Glyn wanted to know why the Labour leadership hadn't been in the media talking about the NHS recently. I posted recent links. If I am only allowed to publish links from websites you rather than Google recommend then can you provide a list for me?
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Glyn wanted to know why the Labour leadership hadn't been in the media talking about the NHS recently.
I said nothing of the sort, and didn't ask anything like that. Perhaps you didn't read what I put properly?
What I wrote about - and am wanting to know - is why Labour hasn't been sticking the knife into Boris for being hypocritical. I thought the Corbynistas would have been all over that that, seeing as they're so against 'careerists'!
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No. Post what you want. I'm just surprised at you repeating an idle and vacuous and unsupported claim from a partisan writer. And even more surprised that you repeat it in a discussion where we're talking about Corbyn's ability to forge the agenda.
If that speech really did have them flocking to YouTube in their millions, then grand. But just because Ms Mendoza says its grabbed the agenda doesn't settle the argument does it?
And that brings us round to the other side of my despair at the cult of Corbyn. The more he says thinks that the Corbynistas adore, the more he is adored by them and the more they convince themselves that everyone else must agree with them.
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Group think in the political world raises its ugly head once again. That's the 3rd time I can remember. Two Labour. 1 Tory. And, unsurprisingly given the nature of groupthink, none of them turned out well.
Bob
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Albie
Complaining about the media is an indulgence that the Left frequently gives in to.
Indulgence? It's now a widely held sentiment (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-poll-labour-leadership-media-bias-believe-against-him-supporters-mi5-portland-a7225031.html).
It's pointless. Unless you plan to nationalise the media and impose some sort of requirement for impartiality, then you have to deal with the media that you have.
Really? Is that the only option? I think the opposite will probably happen (is happening), as in, a slow decentralisation of media to small, transparently funded, online news producers.
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Wilts
I really used to respect your analysis. But when you post a quote from The Canary to support your argument, you've just slipped a long way down the ladder.
However will he sleep at night?
If you had a mate, the two of you could do a passable impression of Waldorf and Stadtler.
Oh aye. And if you were funny.
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Albie
Complaining about the media is an indulgence that the Left frequently gives in to.
Indulgence? It's now a widely held sentiment (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-poll-labour-leadership-media-bias-believe-against-him-supporters-mi5-portland-a7225031.html).
It's pointless. Unless you plan to nationalise the media and impose some sort of requirement for impartiality, then you have to deal with the media that you have.
Really? Is that the only option? I think the opposite will probably happen (is happening), as in, a slow decentralisation of media to small, transparently funded, online news producers.
Hang on! It's coming back to me!
Oh aye! Got it! 1980s re-visited again.
00:57.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pLnSFv2VaYg
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Trust thee to bring up an 80s TV show to make a point.
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They do say the genius in any comedy duo is the straight man. You keep feeding the cues...
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Interestingly, there's some evidence out there to suggest that Corbyn appeals proportionally more to your kind of age group, meaning all these aged-based jokes might be a bit old-hat.
Btw, if want to link to a specific time on a youtube video - right click on that time in the bar at the bottom and choose 'copy video url at current time'. Thank me later.
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Copps.
Stupidity isn't age-limited.
Does that really ace tip work on a mobile phone?
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BST,
I was not complaining about the media, simply observing that it is a given.
That being so, what to do. Corbyn cannot seize the media agenda as you suggest, if they are only interested in chasing negative angles on Labour, or if a sub-editor decides to spike a piece because it does not suit the shaped agenda.
He is doing the only thing he can, by communicating outside the broadcast media via social media to a growth sector of the potential electorate.
Blair managed to persuade Murdoch to buy in to his idea as a one stop shop, only to be disregarded when it suited the Murdoch empire. I cannot see how ANY Labour leader can cut a similar deal in the current climate, so best use the tools to hand.
At the end of the day, the choices made by media interests are not about promoting a discussion of relevance, they are about rendering political positions to a meme. The interests served by this are not those of electors, but of advertisers, sponsors and funding bodies.
Copps is right on this IMO, but some issues just do not cross generations intact.
Twas ever thus.
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Albie.
Hang on, hang on.
You started off talking about the BBC in the EU referendum. Now you're onto Murdoch Media in general. I agree about Murdoch and that is always a problem.
But let's get back on target. You reckon that the BBC has an in-built, systemic and irrational bias against Corbyn? Because the way I see it, they are DESPERATE to appear even handed. But there's only so much they can do if Corbyn doesn't give them ammunition. And I'm genuinely flabbergasted by anyone who thinks that Corbyn did a fine job of putting a clear and unambiguous case during the EU referendum. I'm a Labour party member and I was out doorstepping and I didn't know what the Labour party position was on the economic case for the EU. On immigration. On fiscal policy. There was NOTHING coming from the leadership. Nothing at all.
Go and have a look at that video link I posted and listen to Corbyn ramble on about tax havens and Fukushima and plastic bags in the f**king Pacific Ocean when asked about the EU. And that is AFTER he's explained that there is a left wing case for exit and he understands that. It is appalling.
And yes, I agree with you that important stuff is going on whilst the media were pissing themselves over Traingate.
Which raises the question: who was responsible for Traingate? Who was bloody stupid enough to put out that video, then tetchily admit after a couple of days of media frenzy that, no, the train wasn't rammed. There WERE free seats. He just preferred to sit outside the shitters whilst reading his Private Eye. And by the way, he was so chaotic in his management that he couldn't even book seats for a journey that he'd known would be required for a month.
I agree with you that much of the media has a bias against the left. That's why you needs leader who doesn't offer his chin to them on a weekly basis and say, "Free hit!" You need some brutal discipline to control the agenda. You don't f**k about like a student union activist on a day out and then flounce off moaning when the media point out your manifest inadequacies.
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Admittedly an odd person to mention in a conversation about the internal machinations of the Labour Party, but didn't Enoch Powell say that a politician who complains about the media is rather like a sailor who complains about the sea?
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I once got told by a very wise man somewhere in the Indian ocean that sailing is nothing to do with the sea, it's all about balance and the wind.
As a Corbynista, of course, I avoid the sea like the plague and think it should be brought under international governance. Also might have something to do with seasickness - the ferry from Fishguard to Rosslare ranking as one of the worst experiences of my life.
And thus it was always thus, eh?
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If you have too much wind you can easily lose your balance, so keep off the baked beans.