Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Syme on March 13, 2017, 11:55:13 am
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Sturgeon chancing her arm again:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/mar/13/article-50-commons-lords-brexit-sturgeon-speech-corbyn-clarifies-his-position-on-second-scottish-independence-referendum-saying-hes-opposed-politics-live
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Any excuse to be fair.
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There's no way they'll give up until they've finally won.
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Arguably an inevitable consequence of Brexit and a "hard" Brexit. Yes - independence has always been the SNP's endgame, but the material changes that Brexit will bring to Scotland are potentially so damaging that you can't blame them for going for it. Still, the Brexshirts could well get the little England they always wanted. :lol:
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So potentially you lose full access to the EU Single Market and your response is to break off from your largest trading partner? Good luck!
Still, I'm sure they'll get at least 40% of the vote just by playing the usual anti-English grievance card. Hopefully the other 60% will take a more hard-headed view.
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Well, some Brexshirts didn't like the feeling that they were a part of a union that wasn't listening to them, neither do the Scottish. :lol:
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Independance would be another Scottish DARIEN expedition leaving them bankrupt and coming back to us cap in hand.
They might find themselves minus a few lucrative ship building contracts as well.
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At the end of it Scotland did not have a separate referendum to leave the EU it was a UK referendum so in effect Scotland did not vote to remain in the EU the majority of the UK voted to leave quite simple really.
To try to use it as an excuse for another independence referendum.............
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Seems like the best of times and the worst of times for them to try this.
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Total bullcrap; there are a number of smaller or similarly-sized countries in the EU that do just fine. Imagine if Scotland gets independence and London's banks decide to decamp in part to north of the border to maintain access to the EU, etc etc etc. It's potentially a brilliant time for them to get independence from a country looking to enjoy its not-so-splendid isolation.
Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
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At the end of it Scotland did not have a separate referendum to leave the EU it was a UK referendum so in effect Scotland did not vote to remain in the EU the majority of the UK voted to leave quite simple really
So, we have a referendum to come out of a union but it makes no sense for Scotland to have a referendum to come out of a different union... Not sure your logic follows - especially as a second referendum was in the SNP's manifesto...
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Much of the first referendum hyperbole from the SNP was based on the potential to be independent and affluent by relying on the income generated from North Sea oil. There was a lot of chat about Norway and the example they set.
But the sums didn't add up then and they look even worse now. If I was Scottish I'd be very cautious about buying in to the economic arguments as they stand.
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I think they just have got The Monk On because they got pasted at rugby by England at the weekend. Always were bad losers.
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Do they not have to get a unanimous vote from all 27 countries to grant them accession? can't see Spain ever allowing it with Catalonia watching closely.
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People don't tend to be interested in facts when it comes to referendums - I thought that we'd all learned that one. :lol:
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Total bullcrap; there are a number of smaller or similarly-sized countries in the EU that do just fine. Imagine if Scotland gets independence and London's banks decide to decamp in part to north of the border to maintain access to the EU, etc etc etc. It's potentially a brilliant time for them to get independence from a country looking to enjoy its not-so-splendid isolation.
Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
But Scotland will not be members of the EU. The EU itself has been pretty clear about this. They will have to apply for membership and join countries like Bosnia-Herzegovina and Albania in the waiting room.
Given what the fall in oil prices has done to their current account deficit they would probably have to undertake huge economic "reforms" (code for austerity) before being allowed in the EU. And they would have to agree to join the Euro.
Rather puts me in mind of another small state not doing all that well within the EU - Greece.
Sturgeon's timetable for the referendum means it could be held before the final terms of the UK Brexit deal are known. Imagine Scotland votes YES and then the final Brexit deal gives the UK favourable terms re the Single Market? Anyway her timetable is less to do with Brexit negotiations and more to do with her concern that the SNP will have lost its overall majority at Holyrood by 2020/ 2021. At some point the SNP's tactic of putting the blame for Scotland's domestic problems at the door of Westminster will wear thin.
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Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
Actually, if Scotland remained in the EU they wouldn't be able to have their own trade agreements with England as a non-EU country. They'd be part of the EU and the EU negotiate trade agreements as a bloc, not as separate countries.
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Much of the first referendum hyperbole from the SNP was based on the potential to be independent and affluent by relying on the income generated from North Sea oil. There was a lot of chat about Norway and the example they set.
But the sums didn't add up then and they look even worse now. If I was Scottish I'd be very cautious about buying in to the economic arguments as they stand.
Would those sums be worse in the EU or out of it, though?
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The question Scottish need to ask is if they are better off and have more control outside the UK. Logic dictates probably not at this point but it's not a given.
The sad thing is the snp continuing to divide Scotland. How far do you go with independence? What if the Shetland islands decide actually they don't want to be part of Scotland any more, do they then leave?
Are we really broken as we are?
My family are mostly Scottish I went to school there also for a few years. The first reaction from a family member today was, more of this rubbish again. He was a yes voter before but generally a lot of Scots just want the main issues they have sorting out, many of which are already devolved.
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Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
Actually, if Scotland remained in the EU they wouldn't be able to have their own trade agreements with England as a non-EU country. They'd be part of the EU and the EU negotiate trade agreements as a bloc, not as separate countries.
Yes, of course. I was (I think) slightly misquoting Sturgeon's response to a question where she said she would look to trade freely with England. Or I made it up. Either way, my fingers - and not my brain - were doing the work.
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Much of the first referendum hyperbole from the SNP was based on the potential to be independent and affluent by relying on the income generated from North Sea oil. There was a lot of chat about Norway and the example they set.
But the sums didn't add up then and they look even worse now. If I was Scottish I'd be very cautious about buying in to the economic arguments as they stand.
Would those sums be worse in the EU or out of it, though?
I'd find it very difficult to say at this point. If they left the UK and then were forced to reapply to the EU then I suspect they'd be in a lot of bother, and bother that wouldn't be resolved any time soon. If they stay within the UK then they're probably still in bother whilst new trade agreements are made post Brexit, and that won't be resolved any time soon either. Either way it's not great for them, both options are a bit of a shot in the dark.
Personally I don't think the Brexit situation is an opportunity for them, I think it just adds even more confusion to what is already quite a speculative situation. If Sturgeon can make some strong arguments for leaving then fair enough, but I don't see Brexit in itself as a strong argument and I don't see the oil revenue as the basis for an independent Scottish economy.
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Well, noises are conflicting about having to apply or re-apply to the EU. I would expect that would to become clearer in the future. However, Westminster's percieved "finger-in-ears" approach to Scotland's views on Brexit and more besides will no doubt be used. Whether there's an appetite for independence is another matter entirely, but Scotland could more than cope on its own (albeit within the EU). I saw a list the other day, and it's a pretty land and resource rich country that also happens to have oil as well.
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My comment is a regurgitated again one
Marvellous that everyone keeps telling me to get over my Remain vote and that it was a) democratic and b) a clear majority. I think it was Democratic and far too close which makes it so devisive
A lot of people also then say it is Democracy in action for a second Scottish Independence Referendum which when last held also produced a very close result BUT where is the fairness between the 2 ?
The Scottish people who voted to be independent and lost can keep banging on and on and on until they get the result they want as could the Leave the EU voters had they lost (even by 10% or more) BUT with the vote going their way there is no mechanism for those who voted Remain and lost by a small margin to ever get another chance.
Rant over - apologies as I know I just CANT stop posting this !
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It is democracy in action, mind. The SNP had a pledge in its manifesto that said something along the lines of "If Scotland's circumstances change in a material way (such as being taken out of the EU or the Single Market against its will), the SNP will seek to hold a second independence referendum..." (I'm paraphrasing, but it's in there, apparently.)
Same would apply in the rUK - if a party had a manifesto pledge to stop Brexit or take us back into the EU and it won power then we could have another referendum or stop Brexit. I can't see it happening...
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An intelligent scot who read the article about oil in the Sunday times this week will be voting to stay in the U.K.
They won't be seeing any improvements in oil revenues for about 20 years.
It looks like the Saudi bid to squeeze out the US shale producers has merely resulted in the big players taking over,and their view is simple,there are 75 Billion barrels of recoverable oil in the mid western shale deposit which makes it bigger than Saudi Arabia S largest field,and they can make $40 a barrel profit on it at the moment so they will merrily continue to produce it.
Scotlands deep sea industry is dead,I think Mrs Krankie needs to get a reality check!
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It may well be a folly, but - as I (sort of) said - people tend to vote in referendums with their hearts and not their heads... If they do have a referendum again, it'll be the heart and not the head that wins it.
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Well, noises are conflicting about having to apply or re-apply to the EU. I would expect that would to become clearer in the future. However, Westminster's percieved "finger-in-ears" approach to Scotland's views on Brexit and more besides will no doubt be used. Whether there's an appetite for independence is another matter entirely, but Scotland could more than cope on its own (albeit within the EU). I saw a list the other day, and it's a pretty land and resource rich country that also happens to have oil as well.
The European Commission has been pretty clear that Scotland could not simply "take over" the UKs membership of the EU and, as an independent nation would have to go through the process of applying to join. Even if that application was ultimately successful it would take several years.
The EU's position might change, of course, but if it did it would potentially give the green light to every separatist movement in Europe.
So if Sturgeon is going to make the basis of her campaign "Vote Yes to stay in the EU" then that is as big, if not bigger, a porkie than anything in the EU Referendum campaign.
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Tbh she wants dropping on a disused oil rig somewhere out in the North Sea
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Reported earlier today:
“An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”
He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.
Kirsty Hughes, an expert on EU policy based in Edinburgh and a former European commission official, said she and other colleagues believed it would take until about 2022 or 2023 for an independent Scotland to join the EU, even if a referendum was staged before Brexit. Scotland would also have to commit to joining the euro at a later stage.
So, independence, interim deal and then into the EU having never really being out of it... This is all unchartered waters, so anything's possible, and I am quite sure that the EU would just love to keep Scotland in - that's certainly been Guy Verhofstadt's position.
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Tbh she wants dropping on a disused oil rig somewhere out in the North Sea
:that: :that: :that: :that: :that: :that: :that: :that:
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Reported earlier today:
“An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”
He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.
Kirsty Hughes, an expert on EU policy based in Edinburgh and a former European commission official, said she and other colleagues believed it would take until about 2022 or 2023 for an independent Scotland to join the EU, even if a referendum was staged before Brexit. Scotland would also have to commit to joining the euro at a later stage.
So, independence, interim deal and then into the EU having never really being out of it... This is all unchartered waters, so anything's possible, and I am quite sure that the EU would just love to keep Scotland in - that's certainly been Guy Verhofstadt's position.
The sting is in the tail of the final para in bold. If Scotland leaves the UK with a large current account deficit and has to commit to joining the Euro - hello Austerity.
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Tbh she wants dropping on a disused oil rig somewhere out in the North Sea
:that: :that: :that: :that: :that: :that: :that: :that:
I wouldn't disagree with that but, if only the Labour party had a leader as politically savvy as she obviously is.
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Theresa May commented: "Instead of playing politics with the future of our country, the Scottish government should focus on delivering good government and public services for the people of Scotland. Politics is not a game."
Her predecessor would have done well to heed that advice before he chose to make politics a game by promising a Brexit referendum.
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The more cynical me is thinking that Sturgeon's doing this to screw more concessions out of May to stop her holding another referendum, the holding of whch which would completely undermine May at the negotiating table - and May knows it, or at least she should.
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The Scots born people living in the rest of the U.K. should have a vote on independence this time,not those who reside in Scotland only.
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Reported earlier today:
“An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”
He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.
Kirsty Hughes, an expert on EU policy based in Edinburgh and a former European commission official, said she and other colleagues believed it would take until about 2022 or 2023 for an independent Scotland to join the EU, even if a referendum was staged before Brexit. Scotland would also have to commit to joining the euro at a later stage.
So, independence, interim deal and then into the EU having never really being out of it... This is all unchartered waters, so anything's possible, and I am quite sure that the EU would just love to keep Scotland in - that's certainly been Guy Verhofstadt's position.
The sting is in the tail of the final para in bold. If Scotland leaves the UK with a large current account deficit and has to commit to joining the Euro - hello Austerity.
Deficits mean nothing. Do Leave voters care about anything above and beyond leaving the EU? Are they bothered about the bill we'll face from the EU for doing so, the drop in Sterling, rise in costs and all the other things that may or may not happen? Of course they don't. Same applies in Scotland. IF the mood in Scotland is to leave the rUK, leave it will. And no amount of sensible arguments or talk of debt or lack of oil will prevent it from happening. In fact, should the Article 50 shit start pinching in Scotland, I dare say the mood in Scotland will turn pretty quickly against the rUK and Westminster especially... and no amount of talking sense or pointing out facts will change that.
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The Scots born people living in the rest of the U.K. should have a vote on independence this time,not those who reside in Scotland only.
What about Scots born people wherever they are in the world?
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Why not a UK wide vote?, it affects the whole UK and including the English would probably get the result Sturgeon wants :byebye:
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This is a very thought provoking article indeed. It discusses the Scottish situation along with an analysis of the UK as a whole that seeks to be independent of political postures. It's easy to read and it's not long. It's very worth reading.
http://click.mail.theguardian.com/?qs=81f19b9f81d8fedab73ece058ab6958baa4cba9fdea5e33066a468d97b3034d1d1db65d3dd97d66f488443b66dde56a1
Here's just 2 short paragraphs to illustrate the point:
"As the Financial Times recently pointed out, this settlement produced an expanding economy with falling wages. It should have come as little surprise, then, that many voters revolted against this situation of profound economic injustice.
What’s more, there is nothing progressive about declining to invest in skills in this country, while plundering poor countries of nurses or doctors or carers and then approaching immigration as if people were commodities to be bought up on the open market."
Bob
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Independance would be another Scottish DARIEN expedition leaving them bankrupt and coming back to us cap in hand.
They might find themselves minus a few lucrative ship building contracts as well.
They might find themselves with a few contracts on the other hand .
What is this cap in hand shite , North Sea oil has been fueling the whole economy since we went into the EU " cap in hand " as I seem to remember. Perhaps that oil would have made their balance of payments look so much better had they have had the revenue from it .
Selective memory my friend or lack of knowledge. Small even smaller countries survive pretty well in the EU so could they given that they could gear up with the right investment for self- sufficiency in energy.
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At the end of it Scotland did not have a separate referendum to leave the EU it was a UK referendum so in effect Scotland did not vote to remain in the EU the majority of the UK voted to leave quite simple really.
To try to use it as an excuse for another independence referendum.............
Wrong daggers , the decision would have gone the other way on IndyRef 1 had they not been frightened into voting against because of the worry of losing their EU membership on separation.
They were given that commitment and we'll we are leaving stupidly . They don't want to suffer as we will and wrote that into their manifesto. They have been straight from the start unlike this despicable Tory Govt. and the mad press that support them .
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Total bullcrap; there are a number of smaller or similarly-sized countries in the EU that do just fine. Imagine if Scotland gets independence and London's banks decide to decamp in part to north of the border to maintain access to the EU, etc etc etc. It's potentially a brilliant time for them to get independence from a country looking to enjoy its not-so-splendid isolation.
Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
Good post Lipsy and spot on , financial passporting through Edinburgh. The infrastructure is basically there already.
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Do they not have to get a unanimous vote from all 27 countries to grant them accession? can't see Spain ever allowing it with Catalonia watching closely.
The Catalans are not a separate country already - Scotland by definition is hence the use of the word " Union "
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Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
Actually, if Scotland remained in the EU they wouldn't be able to have their own trade agreements with England as a non-EU country. They'd be part of the EU and the EU negotiate trade agreements as a bloc, not as separate countries.
Has that stopped Eire trading with us or indeed having a common travel policy ? A soft border with Scotland would be very similar to that between the South and Northern Ireland.
Besides they have every right to self-determination even after 400 years if their people want it . I suppose the same arguments were had when Czeckoslovakia split into 2 countries .
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My comment is a regurgitated again one
Marvellous that everyone keeps telling me to get over my Remain vote and that it was a) democratic and b) a clear majority. I think it was Democratic and far too close which makes it so devisive
A lot of people also then say it is Democracy in action for a second Scottish Independence Referendum which when last held also produced a very close result BUT where is the fairness between the 2 ?
The Scottish people who voted to be independent and lost can keep banging on and on and on until they get the result they want as could the Leave the EU voters had they lost (even by 10% or more) BUT with the vote going their way there is no mechanism for those who voted Remain and lost by a small margin to ever get another chance.
Rant over - apologies as I know I just CANT stop posting this !
John I'm with you , Brexit is the equivalent of a suicide note for this country and especially for our young people . Stay with it there is much to unfold yet......keep the faith.
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An intelligent scot who read the article about oil in the Sunday times this week will be voting to stay in the U.K.
They won't be seeing any improvements in oil revenues for about 20 years.
It looks like the Saudi bid to squeeze out the US shale producers has merely resulted in the big players taking over,and their view is simple,there are 75 Billion barrels of recoverable oil in the mid western shale deposit which makes it bigger than Saudi Arabia S largest field,and they can make $40 a barrel profit on it at the moment so they will merrily continue to produce it.
Scotlands deep sea industry is dead,I think Mrs Krankie needs to get a reality check!
No shale deposits in Scotland then ?
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Bad day UK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sFZzKRSHOU
I was scoffed at for suggesting that the Brexit vote could see the end of the union. Of course, it might well come to nought, but the vultures are circling...
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Reported earlier today:
“An independent Scotland would have to go through the accession process, so it would not be automatic,” said Fabian Zuleeg, the chief executive of the European Policy Centre thinktank. “As Scotland does largely fulfil the [membership] criteria it would be a relatively smooth process.”
He said it was difficult to predict how long accession talks would take, but he would expect “some kind of interim arrangement” while Scotland detached itself from the UK.
Kirsty Hughes, an expert on EU policy based in Edinburgh and a former European commission official, said she and other colleagues believed it would take until about 2022 or 2023 for an independent Scotland to join the EU, even if a referendum was staged before Brexit. Scotland would also have to commit to joining the euro at a later stage.
So, independence, interim deal and then into the EU having never really being out of it... This is all unchartered waters, so anything's possible, and I am quite sure that the EU would just love to keep Scotland in - that's certainly been Guy Verhofstadt's position.
The sting is in the tail of the final para in bold. If Scotland leaves the UK with a large current account deficit and has to commit to joining the Euro - hello Austerity.
Erme they have austerity now and feck me perhaps a lot more to come if we don't get that free trade deal with Borneo and East Timor. They won't be negotiating for years with the EU ......They would possibly be in it by 2020 trading freely with 27 + other countries . Meanwhile we would still be negotiating Free trade deals on the back of a fag packet.
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UK lived before the EU exist, and will live even without EU...many countries done it before joining the EU.
In my opinion, being a member of EU has some advantages (more or less), but that doesn't mean that a country should be forced to stay in because of it. I would have preferred that UK shouldn't leave the EU (personal reasons)...but the most people voted out, so everybody should accept it.
As for the second referendum in Scotland...I don't think that so many Scottish would want to leave the UK, even if that means leaving the EU.
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Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
Actually, if Scotland remained in the EU they wouldn't be able to have their own trade agreements with England as a non-EU country. They'd be part of the EU and the EU negotiate trade agreements as a bloc, not as separate countries.
Has that stopped Eire trading with us or indeed having a common travel policy ? A soft border with Scotland would be very similar to that between the South and Northern Ireland.
Besides they have every right to self-determination even after 400 years if their people want it . I suppose the same arguments were had when Czeckoslovakia split into 2 countries .
I'm not sure what you're trying to say...Eire is trading with us and has a travel policy with us as co-members of the Single Market. They do not have any separate agreements with us over and above that and never have, given that we joined the EU together at the same time. The difference between a hard and soft border is about how heavily it's policed, not about what regulations are in place about crossing it.
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I'm not sure either. There are some travel nuances about our relationship with Ireland but no trade ones as far as I'm aware.
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Scotland won't sever ties with the UK; it'll look to do free trade agreements with England but stay in the Single Market and EU. In that sense, it'll have the best of all worlds, leaving little England to bask in its delusions of grandeur.
Actually, if Scotland remained in the EU they wouldn't be able to have their own trade agreements with England as a non-EU country. They'd be part of the EU and the EU negotiate trade agreements as a bloc, not as separate countries.
Has that stopped Eire trading with us or indeed having a common travel policy ? A soft border with Scotland would be very similar to that between the South and Northern Ireland.
Besides they have every right to self-determination even after 400 years if their people want it . I suppose the same arguments were had when Czeckoslovakia split into 2 countries .
The UK is more than willing to have tariff-free trade with the Irish Republic and I suspect the feeling is mutual. But Ireland won't have the freedom to strike a trade deal with the UK while it remains in the EU.
The same would apply if Scotland became independent and subsequently joined the EU.
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Very little is truly black and white, but this rings true with me. If this is the case, we (and I use the word very loosely) only have ourselves to blame for all of this...
http://novaramedia.com/2017/03/14/the-real-threat-to-the-union-is-english-nationalism/ (http://novaramedia.com/2017/03/14/the-real-threat-to-the-union-is-english-nationalism/)
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There seems to be a slightly worrying rise of nationalism in Western Europe, coupled with ever increasing military funding. It makes you wonder what we're sleep walking into.
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Oh yeah, let's not forget that this is a thing that's happening throughout Europe and beyond. I do think that there's at least some mileage in looking into who is benefitting from all of this...
I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but this country and its leader keeps cropping up. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-12/eu-turmoil-makes-russia-the-sanctioned-bond-market-traders-love (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-12/eu-turmoil-makes-russia-the-sanctioned-bond-market-traders-love)
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These once in a generation referendum come around quickly nowadays
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I'm more surprised when a government actually sticks to its manifesto pledges, tbh. :P
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I haven't fact-checked this, so approach with care. However, this was the list I referenced earlier in this thread. Assuming 10% of this is accurate, I'd say the Scots had reason enough to go it alone and for our govt. to want to keep hold:
Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population. 8.3%! Remember this important figure... 8.3%
But we DO have...
32% of the land area
61% of the sea area
90% of the fresh water. (There is more fresh water in Loch Ness than In England and Wales combined!)
65% of the natural gas production
96.5% of the crude oil production
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydroelectric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% of the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
99.9% of the Whisky industry.
We have a...
17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aero service industry
4.5 billion whisky export industry
3.1 billion life sciences industry
Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports
We have 25% of Europe's wave and wind energy potential.
And finally, we are blessed to have 1.5 trillion pounds - £1,500,000,000,000 worth of oil and gas reserves.
All of this, yet only 8.3% of The UK's population...
IGNORANCE...
If you hear anyone saying "I don't like Nicola Sturgeon" or "I don't like the SNP"...This vote is about Scotland's right to elect its own government... It has nothing whatsoever to do with Sturgeon or the SNP. Don't let political ignorance ruin this opportunity.
Do you know... This is the UK's legacy of success in our history of being 'better together':
The UK has the 3rd lowest pensions in the 34 OECD countries of the world
The UK has the single most expensive childcare in the European Union
The UK has the second lowest-paid economy in the entire developed world
The UK has the 3rd longest working hours in the EU
The UK has the lowest number of holidays in the EU
The UK has the 8th highest gender inequality pay gap out of the EU's 28 countries
The UK has the highest likelihood of poverty in disablement in the EU
The UK has the highest rail prices in Europe
The UK has the second highest housing cost in Europe
The UK has the highest fuel poverty rates in Europe.
The UK is the 4th highest country of wealth inequality on the entire planet!
Surely these awful figures should not be possible when you read the Scottish statistics above...
Finally, did you know that in all of the UK elections for Westminster ever!... Not one vote cast in SCOTLAND has ever mattered! Because of the Westminster numbers, whatever government England votes for, the UK gets. So we have no democracy here!!! 4 decades of Tory rule that we voted against is proof enough, and our defiance was punished by the closure of all the mines; closure of all the steelworks; closure of all the shipyards losing thousands of jobs. The term used by Thatcher when these industries needed some assistance was "let the markets decide". Funny how when the greedy banks collapsed everywhere they were bailed out to the tune of over a trillion pounds of our money... Not a mention of "let the markets decide".
FACTS:
Fact: Scotland has an oil boom waiting to happen on the West Coast, but Michael Heseltine signed a cessation of any form of oil exploration in the entire area in the 80's to make way for nuclear submarines which Scotland doesn't want!
Fact: Scotland has shown its revulsion time and time again to nuclear weapons but they place them here against our countries wishes. A recent contingency report was carried out about the feasibility of relocating them in Portsmouth. The report stated that it was unfeasible because the detrimental risk to the area of an incident was too high. (Ok for the Clyde though)
Fact: Scotland, with only 1 Tory MP, was forced to take the shocking attack on the poor & disabled called The Bedroom Tax, even though Holyrood voted to utterly reject this awful tax on the poor. Westminster gave us it anyway!
Fact: We are led to believe that the oil in our waters is finished and it's a dying industry. Yet 13.5 billion has been invested by oil companies in the last 2 years alone!
Fact: The Clair Oil Field is about to open its 3rd phase, and on its own has over 650 million barrels which will be extracted over 20+ years with production reaching a hundred thousand barrels a day!
Fact: Scotland gives more to Westminster than it gets back. Do you really think they'd be so keen to keep us if we were being subsidised like they'd have us believe?
Fact: Westminster has amassed over £1.3 trillion debt and still growing at nearly £6000 a second. That's another £516 million today alone which YOU will have to pay for.
Fact: Of the 178 countries that have gained their own independence across this planet, not one single one of them has ever asked to reverse this independence
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It makes you wonder why anyone should want to come and live in England, doesn't it?
Sorry in advance if it's racist to say England.
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I haven't fact-checked this, so approach with care. However, this was the list I referenced earlier in this thread. Assuming 10% of this is accurate, I'd say the Scots had reason enough to go it alone and for our govt. to want to keep hold:
Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population. 8.3%! Remember this important figure... 8.3%
But we DO have...
32% of the land area
61% of the sea area
90% of the fresh water. (There is more fresh water in Loch Ness than In England and Wales combined!)
65% of the natural gas production
96.5% of the crude oil production
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydroelectric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% of the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
99.9% of the Whisky industry.
We have a...
17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aero service industry
4.5 billion whisky export industry
3.1 billion life sciences industry
Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports
We have 25% of Europe's wave and wind energy potential.
And finally, we are blessed to have 1.5 trillion pounds - £1,500,000,000,000 worth of oil and gas reserves.
All of this, yet only 8.3% of The UK's population...
IGNORANCE...
If you hear anyone saying "I don't like Nicola Sturgeon" or "I don't like the SNP"...This vote is about Scotland's right to elect its own government... It has nothing whatsoever to do with Sturgeon or the SNP. Don't let political ignorance ruin this opportunity.
Do you know... This is the UK's legacy of success in our history of being 'better together':
The UK has the 3rd lowest pensions in the 34 OECD countries of the world
The UK has the single most expensive childcare in the European Union
The UK has the second lowest-paid economy in the entire developed world
The UK has the 3rd longest working hours in the EU
The UK has the lowest number of holidays in the EU
The UK has the 8th highest gender inequality pay gap out of the EU's 28 countries
The UK has the highest likelihood of poverty in disablement in the EU
The UK has the highest rail prices in Europe
The UK has the second highest housing cost in Europe
The UK has the highest fuel poverty rates in Europe.
The UK is the 4th highest country of wealth inequality on the entire planet!
Surely these awful figures should not be possible when you read the Scottish statistics above...
Finally, did you know that in all of the UK elections for Westminster ever!... Not one vote cast in SCOTLAND has ever mattered! Because of the Westminster numbers, whatever government England votes for, the UK gets. So we have no democracy here!!! 4 decades of Tory rule that we voted against is proof enough, and our defiance was punished by the closure of all the mines; closure of all the steelworks; closure of all the shipyards losing thousands of jobs. The term used by Thatcher when these industries needed some assistance was "let the markets decide". Funny how when the greedy banks collapsed everywhere they were bailed out to the tune of over a trillion pounds of our money... Not a mention of "let the markets decide".
FACTS:
Fact: Scotland has an oil boom waiting to happen on the West Coast, but Michael Heseltine signed a cessation of any form of oil exploration in the entire area in the 80's to make way for nuclear submarines which Scotland doesn't want!
Fact: Scotland has shown its revulsion time and time again to nuclear weapons but they place them here against our countries wishes. A recent contingency report was carried out about the feasibility of relocating them in Portsmouth. The report stated that it was unfeasible because the detrimental risk to the area of an incident was too high. (Ok for the Clyde though)
Fact: Scotland, with only 1 Tory MP, was forced to take the shocking attack on the poor & disabled called The Bedroom Tax, even though Holyrood voted to utterly reject this awful tax on the poor. Westminster gave us it anyway!
Fact: We are led to believe that the oil in our waters is finished and it's a dying industry. Yet 13.5 billion has been invested by oil companies in the last 2 years alone!
Fact: The Clair Oil Field is about to open its 3rd phase, and on its own has over 650 million barrels which will be extracted over 20+ years with production reaching a hundred thousand barrels a day!
Fact: Scotland gives more to Westminster than it gets back. Do you really think they'd be so keen to keep us if we were being subsidised like they'd have us believe?
Fact: Westminster has amassed over £1.3 trillion debt and still growing at nearly £6000 a second. That's another £516 million today alone which YOU will have to pay for.
Fact: Of the 178 countries that have gained their own independence across this planet, not one single one of them has ever asked to reverse this independence
Not a fact!
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But that's my point. Referendums don't need facts. A similar thing was posted about Brexit last year - it was a total work of fiction, but that didn't stop it from being shared 100s of thousands of times and seen by goodness knows how many more people. Facts are immaterial when people see and read things that chime with what they want to hear or read. Add England's nationalism into the mix, which is being used as a sign that we're ignoring Ireland and Scotland, and we have a heady brew coming our way, I fear.
Still, the current names for the little 'ole England are looking good:
'FUK' (Former United Kindom) or 'Poundland' - not sure which I prefer.
There are plenty of Brexiteers that are happy for Scotland and (presumably) N.I. to go, so it's all good.... It's what people voted for, I'm sure. Which is nice.
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What Scotland has to realise, is if they vote to leave the union then come running back cap in hand a broke Country they will not get back what they had, the rest of the UK will surely play hardball with them
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You mean Wales and England, surely? It has plenty of resources and the means to go it alone. As I believe I have said already, if the will is there to leave then no amount of half-hearted threats or bullying is going change that.
It's what Brexiteers wanted, though. No silly half-border with an EU country in Ireland and a nice hard border to patrol to keep those pesky Scotch folk at bay. I'll leave it to Farage to get the bulk order for razor wire in...
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What do you mean it's what Brexiters wanted? Have you any evidence of that? Since when did Brexiters want the Scots to have independence?
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Well, they want to take back control - it's a bit hypocritical if 'we' are allowed to but 'they' are not, no? It makes no sense whatsoever. Brave Brexiteers fought hard to win back sovereignty they already had and to get control of their borders (which we already controlled) - why shouldn't Scotland, which had a specific pledge in its manifesto to hold a referendum, not do the same? Also, wasn't the last Scottish referendum in part won with the old 'Stay in the UK or you might end up outside of the EU and face economic ruination' line? Some would argue it played its part. Again, a bit hypocritical now...
Moreover, we all had plenty of time to read up prior to the Brexit vote. I certainly read plenty before and since the referendum that warned of this potential outcome. In part, it's why I voted the way I did. It follows that, given that warnings were made (and I think that Farage batted the threat of Scotland leaving prior to the vote), I think it's safe to assume that Brexiteers were unconcerned about the union...
Besides, any Brexiteer saddened by the news from Ireland and Scotland should just accept it as collateral damage for winning.
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There you go, Farage did say it: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14507821.Farage_says_idea_Sturgeon_will_call_second_Scottish_independence_pool_after_Brexit_is__moonshine_/ (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14507821.Farage_says_idea_Sturgeon_will_call_second_Scottish_independence_pool_after_Brexit_is__moonshine_/)
So, as I said, the discussion was being had prior to June 23rd...
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Just been looking at Scotlands 'Resources ' wind power wow, fishing ........equals Spanish and French pirates plundering their seas and Fishing Quotas.
Unfortunately for us the Jocks are like a chuffing great boil on our neck 64 % of Their trade is with us, without us they are nothing,they need a few home truths telling to them to be Honest!
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So you think it would be foolish for the Scottish to leave their nearest and biggest trading partners - even though they're in a union they think doesn't always work in their best interests? :lol: :whistle:
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No but it is foolish wanting them to stay part of the union, let them go then we can find out which one of you above spouting your own versions bullshit can be proved right
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Divide and conquer.
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There you go, Farage did say it: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14507821.Farage_says_idea_Sturgeon_will_call_second_Scottish_independence_pool_after_Brexit_is__moonshine_/ (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14507821.Farage_says_idea_Sturgeon_will_call_second_Scottish_independence_pool_after_Brexit_is__moonshine_/)
So, as I said, the discussion was being had prior to June 23rd...
Where does Farage say he wanted Scotland to be independent?
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Er, I mentioned in a post above that before the referendum even took place that people were talking about the distinct possibility of the union breaking up if we voted to leave the EU. I mentioned that Farage had said that there wouldn't be another referendum in Scotland if we voted to leave the EU; that link shows that a) we were talking about the union breaking up (as a side note: we were talking about it over a year ago) and that b) Farage had said another ref vote wouldn't happen in Scotland.
I certainly wasn't saying Farage wanted Scotland to leave.
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You said that brexiters wanted an independent Scotland. I asked if you had any evidence of that and you replied with a story about Farage, with the comment 'There you go, Farage said it'. He didn't.
If anything there will probably be more Remainers than Brexiters in Scotland wanting independence.
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I thought that's where you were trying to go with that... Oh dear.
Right, Farage knew that the union would have been at risk if we voted to leave (he was asked about it in the link I provided). His party's entire raison d'etre was to get the country out of the EU - he's hardly likely to admit that voting to leave the EU could risk the union...
If he knew it was a risk (and he did), he was more than happy to lie about it and deal with the fallout. Ergo, he was happy to risk the union just to get what he wanted and was happy enough for Scotland to go.
You do know how politicians work, yeah?
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Well, they want to take back control - it's a bit hypocritical if 'we' are allowed to but 'they' are not, no? It makes no sense whatsoever. Brave Brexiteers fought hard to win back sovereignty they already had and to get control of their borders (which we already controlled) - why shouldn't Scotland, which had a specific pledge in its manifesto to hold a referendum, not do the same? Also, wasn't the last Scottish referendum in part won with the old 'Stay in the UK or you might end up outside of the EU and face economic ruination' line? Some would argue it played its part. Again, a bit hypocritical now...
Moreover, we all had plenty of time to read up prior to the Brexit vote. I certainly read plenty before and since the referendum that warned of this potential outcome. In part, it's why I voted the way I did. It follows that, given that warnings were made (and I think that Farage batted the threat of Scotland leaving prior to the vote), I think it's safe to assume that Brexiteers were unconcerned about the union...
Besides, any Brexiteer saddened by the news from Ireland and Scotland should just accept it as collateral damage for winning.
I think you missed this post, BB - and then clicked on the link in the post after it thinking that was my "proof". I have highlighted the more important bit.
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So you think people voted Brexit because they wanted Scotland to have another independence referendum, assuming, of course, that they knew the Scots would vote a Remain majority, and also assume that if the Scots did have another independence vote, it would be successful?
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No, I think that people (including Farage) knew that the union was at risk if they voted to leave the EU but prioritised voting to leave the EU over the future of the union of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, etc... (A bit like, if I fancied porking someone else I would be prioritising my dick over my marriage... and therefore I would have to be happy with the consequences of my action, like divorce or having my tackle removed.)
So to repeat:
As we voted to leave, we clearly were less concerned about the United Kingdom over our desire to leave the EU. Therefore, having voted the way we did, we have to be happy with the consequences...
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So, unless we all knew the Scots would vote a majority to remain, and that if the vote went to leave Jimmy Crankie would want another vote on independence, and of course assuming the Brexiters knew that such a vote would be allowed (considering it is STILL not known whether it will be), don't you think it's a very far-reaching risk of ifs and buts for it to have been of main consideration when deciding on one's EU vote.
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Jesus wept, BB. I don't think I can explain it in any simpler way without using pictures. As I have said, it was made clear that the union would be at risk - it was even covered by the Mail over a year ago http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html). Farage tweeted about it. It was covered, mentioned, discussed. Simple as.
If people went into the vote ignorant of the potential consequences of their vote then God help us all. And even if people were ignorant of the potential consequences, you still have to suck up (and be happy with) the consequences. It's very simple stuff, really. You can't go "Oh, I didn't realise that a thing that people said was going to happen might actually happen" nor can you go "Oh, I was totally ignorant about that so I'm not responsible" - it doesn't work that.
Equally, you can't have your cake and eat it.
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Bloody Hell! The Mail! I'm surprised that you used the Daily Mail, you'll be slain by the lefties for believing owt in that rag!
On a serious note, what I'm saying is people who considered the possibility of Scotland requesting a second referendum, having the request granted, and the vote going in favour of independence, didn't give that If, if, and if outcome of events priority over what they thought were other, more important advantages of leaving the EU.
Then, of course, there will no doubt be some voters who probably didn't care, or even wanted Scotland to go alone.
That's another argument.
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Well, I didn't say that the Mail believed what Tony 'WMD' Blair was saying at the time, did I? :) Just that it was out there and had been discussed across broad sections of media - even ones that might have dismissed it.
I think that the rest of what you said mirrors what I have been saying, tbh. Though I may have thrown you a little with my overuse of the word 'happy' - I am not saying that Leave voters across the country will be dancing in the streets over the (potential) break up of the UK (though some would, I guess). But - regardless of their knowledge or ignorance - they have to accept it because it was always a (potential) consequence of their vote choice.
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OK, fair do's mate.
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Jesus wept, BB. I don't think I can explain it in any simpler way without using pictures. As I have said, it was made clear that the union would be at risk - it was even covered by the Mail over a year ago http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html). Farage tweeted about it. It was covered, mentioned, discussed. Simple as.
If people went into the vote ignorant of the potential consequences of their vote then God help us all. And even if people were ignorant of the potential consequences, you still have to suck up (and be happy with) the consequences. It's very simple stuff, really. You can't go "Oh, I didn't realise that a thing that people said was going to happen might actually happen" nor can you go "Oh, I was totally ignorant about that so I'm not responsible" - it doesn't work that.
Equally, you can't have your cake and eat it.
Oh come on now, it's only the Remoaners who have to do that! :laugh: :silly:
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Jesus wept, BB. I don't think I can explain it in any simpler way without using pictures. As I have said, it was made clear that the union would be at risk - it was even covered by the Mail over a year ago http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3460706/Tony-Blair-claims-UK-break-Britain-leaves-EU-intervention-former-Prime-Minister.html). Farage tweeted about it. It was covered, mentioned, discussed. Simple as.
If people went into the vote ignorant of the potential consequences of their vote then God help us all. And even if people were ignorant of the potential consequences, you still have to suck up (and be happy with) the consequences. It's very simple stuff, really. You can't go "Oh, I didn't realise that a thing that people said was going to happen might actually happen" nor can you go "Oh, I was totally ignorant about that so I'm not responsible" - it doesn't work that.
Equally, you can't have your cake and eat it.
Oh come on now, it's only the Remoaners who have to do that! :laugh: :silly:
I'm currently wearing EU underpants and flying the EU flag whilst singing its anthem,but i'm an ardent anti-Nationalist,even if i think Scotland should negotiate its own trade deal whist an EU member,or maybe i just write any old cobblers?
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You're right about that one.
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Makes you proud, dunt it?
https://vimeo.com/208529700 (https://vimeo.com/208529700)
It would be churlish of me to guess which way he voted in the EU referendum, but he is exhibiting snowflake tendencies... :lol:
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Lipsy I'm no Economist but what currency do you think Scotland will have and what about the financial support required to back it? I can't see Alfies Mum allowing them to keep the pound
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God alone knows that one - it would be an out and out mess, tbh. As we stand, we're a very, very long way from there being the will for another referendum in Scotland or one in N.I and the Republic, but as the situation changes (and we start to feel the pinch of Article 50 being triggered and Brexit as a whole) that could change very quickly. If and when that does happen, I don't think voters will care about those kinds of details and will vote with their hearts and not necessarily with their heads, which is kind of what we have been talking about throughout this thread.
I think it's going to be fun to watch, tbh.
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I wouldn't have thought it was much fun you watching it judging by the amount of moaning you've done in this thread.
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I'm not moaning at all. I genuinely find all of this fascinating - it's a massively interesting (and fun) time at the moment. We're all passengers now, so watching it all happen and unfold is better done with a bucket of popcorn than crying into your beer.
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Lipsy I'm no Economist but what currency do you think Scotland will have and what about the financial support required to back it? I can't see Alfies Mum allowing them to keep the pound
The backing would come from Scotland's share of the UK gold reserve they're entitled to.
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I wouldn't have thought it was much fun you watching it judging by the amount of moaning you've done in this thread.
Oh come on he's been hilarious,i reckon Gazza will be turning up at Lipsys soon with a fishing rod and bottle of whiskey
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I quite like whiskey - you'd all be very welcome.
Here's a lovely video of May-bot, irony turned up to 11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4EZgngIdmA
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Actually, Gazza lives in my neck of the woods - I have never seen him with any chicken. :(
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I quite like whiskey - you'd all be very welcome.
Here's a lovely video of May-bot, irony turned up to 11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4EZgngIdmA
I think the 'they won't be able to make an informed decision' excuse that they've used is brilliant. As you can't have more knowledge in the past, that means they think the Scots weren't making an informed decision when they voted in the EU referendum. Or, by implication, the rest of us! What does that say about the result? lol
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No it doesn't. She is saying is that it will be best for the Scots to know what deal the UK can reach before they make a decision on independence.
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No it doesn't. She is saying is that it will be best for the Scots to know what deal the UK can reach before they make a decision on independence.
(https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder527/67527527.jpg)
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I think that this sums up the situation perfectly:
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17264149_10155870782953356_2559226375205450604_n.jpg?oh=1e82c846f8c5f8ee19af0f735ba3734b&oe=595C7A87)
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No it doesn't. She is saying is that it will be best for the Scots to know what deal the UK can reach before they make a decision on independence.
So the rest of us were making an informed decision when we voted in the referendum even though we didn't know what deal the UK will get either? :silly:
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I dare say none of us knew what deal the UK would get, apart from you of course, but seeing as Jimmy Crankie's request for a vote on independence is a different issue to Scotland's vote to remain in the EU, Theresa May has a point in saying they should wait and see what deal the UK can reach before they make a decision on independence.
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If May has a point in saying the Scots should make an informed decision, it also underlines the case for the whole UK to wait and see what deal we get and then hold an informed referendum before deciding to leave the EU. QED.
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So what you're saying is the UK should see what deal we get from leaving the EU, and if it's crap we should hold another referendum?
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So what you're saying is the UK should see what deal we get from leaving the EU, and if it's crap we should hold another referendum?
No, we should see what deal we get from the EU then hold a referendum so that we can make an informed decision - as May is telling Scotland they have to do.
To do otherwise means that the Prime Minister is saying that Scotland cannot make a decision on independence without having the information on what Brexit deal the UK gets, but that she is happy to accept the whole UK making an uninformed decision to leave the EU when that same information is even more important to know when making that decision! If May is going to be consistent in her logic, then she should commit to hold another EU referendum when we all have the information to make an informed decision.
...and you can't say the two scenarios are different because it is the exact same information that is needed to make an informed decision in both cases.
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So if you think that we should also have a referendum once we find out the deal we will get from the EU, Theresa May can't be so wrong by insisting that Scotland does the same?
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Perhaps it's time for a general election,i was in favour of one last summer/autumn as no party had a mandate for which ever way the referendum went.That would be funny,old man Steptoe with his no limits to mass migration and friends of the late Billy Stubbs R.I.P, such as Lord and Lady Kinnock's son saying there has to be controls,and Diane Abbott telling everyone that is racist.Utter carnage ensues.General election please
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So if you think that we should also have a referendum once we find out the deal we will get from the EU, Theresa May can't be so wrong by insisting that Scotland does the same?
I want for everybody to have the full information before making a final decision of such fundamental importance to the country and its economy, as long as it applies equally to everybody. It was ridiculous to have made any such decision without that information. Don't you agree? Do you think May will insist everybody has that information before making a fully informed final decision, or will she apply it just the Scots and deny it to the rest of us?
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The two scenarios are different though. England voted to leave, and got it's wish. Scotland voted to remain, and didn't get it's wish!
May isn't asking for another vote on Brexit, we're leaving and that's final. She's asking Scotland to consider the deal the UK gets before it votes on the other issue of independence, which she believes will be of significant influence in the outcome of that vote.
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So you're saying the very same information wasn't of significant influence in the EU referendum? And why is she happy to accept our uninformed decision buit not apply that equally?
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You said the scenarios are exactly the same, and they're not.
Look, it's Friday night and you're starting to bore me now. I'll tell you what, you carry on believing what you believe, and I'll just ignore you.
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The two scenarios are different though. England voted to leave, and got it's wish. Scotland voted to remain, and didn't get it's wish!
Scotland voted to remain a part of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom voted to leave. There were not separate referendums for each part of the Union.
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So you're saying the very same information wasn't of significant influence in the EU referendum? And why is she happy to accept our uninformed decision buit not apply that equally?
according to you ;)
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Lipsy I'm no Economist but what currency do you think Scotland will have and what about the financial support required to back it? I can't see Alfies Mum allowing them to keep the pound
The backing would come from Scotland's share of the UK gold reserve they're entitled to.
Oh it would eh? You mean what is left of Britain's meagre gold reserves after the very pro EU new labour sold loads off very cheaply?Should I be surprised that an expert on every eventual outcome of international trade negotiations such as you forgot to mention that Jockland would also be entitled to their share of Britain's debt,a debt that would wipe out all Scots public services,thats before the convergence criteria for joining the Euro would,but hey pander to virulent nationalism of the SNP variety,well the Brussels National Party,or henceforth known as the BNP
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Tariffs: how do they work? Excuse me for being a bit thick over this,but if we have to pay a Tarriff on goods exported to the Eu and the Eu has to pay a Tarriff on stuff they export to us,how can this be a bad thing for the UK?
I can't produce the exact figures but we import 25% more than we export.
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I notice whiskey exports have risen post referendum,this scum bag tells all about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0xgLajhpLs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0xgLajhpLs)
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So you're saying the very same information wasn't of significant influence in the EU referendum? And why is she happy to accept our uninformed decision buit not apply that equally?
according to you ;)
No - according to Theresa May. That's the point.
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Tariffs: how do they work? Excuse me for being a bit thick over this,but if we have to pay a Tarriff on goods exported to the Eu and the Eu has to pay a Tarriff on stuff they export to us,how can this be a bad thing for the UK?
I can't produce the exact figures but we import 25% more than we export.
Tariffs are paid on imports by the importer, not on exports by the exporter.
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Lipsy I'm no Economist but what currency do you think Scotland will have and what about the financial support required to back it? I can't see Alfies Mum allowing them to keep the pound
The backing would come from Scotland's share of the UK gold reserve they're entitled to.
Oh it would eh? You mean what is left of Britain's meagre gold reserves after the very pro EU new labour sold loads off very cheaply?Should I be surprised that an expert on every eventual outcome of international trade negotiations such as you forgot to mention that Jockland would also be entitled to their share of Britain's debt,a debt that would wipe out all Scots public services,thats before the convergence criteria for joining the Euro would,but hey pander to virulent nationalism of the SNP variety,well the Brussels National Party,or henceforth known as the BNP
I didn't talk about the Scottish share of the National Debt they would inherit because the question was about what any future Scottish currency would be backed by. Which is gold. Not debt. Hence not mentioning it. Why on Earth do you think it was relevant to the question I was answering to have made it necessary to mention?
PS Why do you think that National Debt is somehow connected to International Trade?
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Right Glynn thanks for that, so we buy our lamb and butter from New Zealand again and Lamb goes back to being the cheapest meat, we buy our beef from our new bestie buddies the Argies and hey presto iit is half the price what we pay now.
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Right Glynn thanks for that, so we buy our lamb and butter from New Zealand again and Lamb goes back to being the cheapest meat, we buy our beef from our new bestie buddies the Argies and hey presto iit is half the price what we pay now.
No, the price from those countries remains exactly the same as leaving the EU has absolutely no impact of the cost of importing from them with regards to Customs Duties and VAT, only on the imports/exports we have with the EU. If imports from those countries become our cheapest imports it woul be because the price of others has gone up, not that NZ butter of Argentine beef has got cheaper.
EDIT: Having said that, CAP will not apply once we leave the EU but there will almost certainly be a UK replacement in order to protect UK producers (especially by a Conservative government) but there's been no details given yet about what will happen. As May has said that we will leave the Single Market you would have expected that this should have already have been thought about...
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What Scotland has to realise, is if they vote to leave the union then come running back cap in hand a broke Country they will not get back what they had, the rest of the UK will surely play hardball with them
It's just that sort of attitude that will ensure they will leave taking their oil, gas, green energy reserves, fisheries and territorial waters with them .
Oh and then we will have to stump the cost of losing our nuclear submarine bases and northern air force bases. Plenty of money has been going into the Exchequer from Scotland these last 40 years, multi billions.
Filo it's patently obvious that you are yet another one of my fellow countrymen that are living in a distant past that will NOT return. Yet another Socialist that is backing the Far Right Tory doctrines and huge lies behind the nonsense that is t**tting and destructive Brexit. Soon we will see who the real lovers of this country really are.......
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Just been looking at Scotlands 'Resources ' wind power wow, fishing ........equals Spanish and French pirates plundering their seas and Fishing Quotas.
Unfortunately for us the Jocks are like a chuffing great boil on our neck 64 % of Their trade is with us, without us they are nothing,they need a few home truths telling to them to be Honest!
Don't be daft Sproty they have other markets that would want their goods it's called the EU. It's a simple switch to the other 450,000,000 in the EU
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If May has a point in saying the Scots should make an informed decision, it also underlines the case for the whole UK to wait and see what deal we get and then hold an informed referendum before deciding to leave the EU. QED.
Exactly this woman walks into her own traps. Frankly she is not upto the job.
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Perhaps it's time for a general election,i was in favour of one last summer/autumn as no party had a mandate for which ever way the referendum went.That would be funny,old man Steptoe with his no limits to mass migration and friends of the late Billy Stubbs R.I.P, such as Lord and Lady Kinnock's son saying there has to be controls,and Diane Abbott telling everyone that is racist.Utter carnage ensues.General election please
A General Election doesnt decide whether we should go on with this crazy MAYhem shite does it ? This isn'r about party support ?
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If May has a point in saying the Scots should make an informed decision, it also underlines the case for the whole UK to wait and see what deal we get and then hold an informed referendum before deciding to leave the EU. QED.
Exactly this woman walks into her own traps. Frankly she is not upto the job.
She was mediocre at best as a Home Secretary and I've seen nothing to indicate that she won't be exactly the same as a Prime Minister.
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The two scenarios are different though. England voted to leave, and got it's wish. Scotland voted to remain, and didn't get it's wish!
May isn't asking for another vote on Brexit, we're leaving and that's final. She's asking Scotland to consider the deal the UK gets before it votes on the other issue of independence, which she believes will be of significant influence in the outcome of that vote.
How can you have a finalised deal when Scotland could end up leaving the UK. Surely fishing rights , areas etc would change ?
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I notice whiskey exports have risen post referendum,this scum bag tells all about it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0xgLajhpLs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0xgLajhpLs)
No the sarcy questioner was the scumbag, I watched that too. Why is she a scumbag is it because she doesn't agree with you Yargo ?
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Just been looking at Scotlands 'Resources ' wind power wow, fishing ........equals Spanish and French pirates plundering their seas and Fishing Quotas.
Unfortunately for us the Jocks are like a chuffing great boil on our neck 64 % of Their trade is with us, without us they are nothing,they need a few home truths telling to them to be Honest!
Don't be daft Sproty they have other markets that would want their goods it's called the EU. It's a simple switch to the other 450,000,000 in the EU
If they were that good (which they are not) they would have already been trading. To a greater extent,we are their main trading partner because we are just down the road, we lent the Irish 3 times their entire annual tax take a few tears back for the same reason,we are their main trading partner!
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HOOLA, I may be showing my ignorance but an Independant Scotland would not be part of the EU they would have to negotiate new contracts based on an "unknown" currency. Which countries do you think would take the risk? Has the Fish woman really thought this through or is it simply who blinks first loses between her anf Alfies mum.?
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HOOLA, I may be showing my ignorance but an Independant Scotland would not be part of the EU they would have to negotiate new contracts based on an "unknown" currency. Which countries do you think would take the risk? Has the Fish woman really thought this through or is it simply who blinks first loses between her anf Alfies mum.?
Most international contracts are in US Dollars or Euros, even when they aren't the currency of either of the countries involved.
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Glyn my O level Economics agrees with that but, again, what will be the currency of an Independent Scotland?
It will not be a UK pound that is for sure so it is an unknown quantity how will it be valued in the exchange market?
For me the Fishwife is testing Alfies Mum out lets see what we can squeeze out of the UK Govt this is all a game of bluff from SNP JMHO
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Glyn my O level Economics agrees with that but, again, what will be the currency of an Independent Scotland?
It will not be a UK pound that is for sure so it is an unknown quantity how will it be valued in the exchange market?
For me the Fishwife is testing Alfies Mum out lets see what we can squeeze out of the UK Govt this is all a game of bluff from SNP JMHO
I don't know what their currency might be. You say it can't be the UK pound - why not? The Republic of Ireland had the pound for years after independence. It could very easily be the Euro if the Sots do end up still in the EU. It's only a problem for the Scots, not their potential customers, because it'll be the Scots who have to buy USD or EUR on the market to trade internationally with whatever currency they have internally, so it shouldn't affect exports. If they end up with a weaker currency of course, their exports will become more competitive...
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Just been looking at Scotlands 'Resources ' wind power wow, fishing ........equals Spanish and French pirates plundering their seas and Fishing Quotas.
Unfortunately for us the Jocks are like a chuffing great boil on our neck 64 % of Their trade is with us, without us they are nothing,they need a few home truths telling to them to be Honest!
Don't be daft Sproty they have other markets that would want their goods it's called the EU. It's a simple switch to the other 450,000,000 in the EU
If they were that good (which they are not) they would have already been trading. To a greater extent,we are their main trading partner because we are just down the road, we lent the Irish 3 times their entire annual tax take a few tears back for the same reason,we are their main trading partner!
Scotland's exports to the EU £ 28.7 billion
England's exports to the EU £ 220 billion
Relative populations Scotland........5.4
England.........54.8 million
On that basis population Is X10 and therefore you would expect £ 287 billion of exports from England it currently stands at £ 220 billion . *
Do the maths *
Sorry Scotland vastly out performing England in terms of exports per. capita
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Glyn my O level Economics agrees with that but, again, what will be the currency of an Independent Scotland?
It will not be a UK pound that is for sure so it is an unknown quantity how will it be valued in the exchange market?
For me the Fishwife is testing Alfies Mum out lets see what we can squeeze out of the UK Govt this is all a game of bluff from SNP JMHO
Seems to me we are once again playing the Billy big bollox argument out again , what relevance is it what name they might give to a currency . How about the Scottish pound ( S £ ) . Is there any difference between that and Al the differing types of dollar denominations there are in the world I. E . NZ $, C $, A $ etc.
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Scots have a 9.5 % budget deficit, guess who is funding that lot!
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Scots have a 9.5 % budget deficit, guess who is funding that lot!
Is that an argument for maintaining the Union..?
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Why not let the English hold a referendum if they want Scotland to remain in the UK . Bye bye Jimmy Krankie
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Why not let the English hold a referendum if they want Scotland to remain in the UK . Bye bye Jimmy Krankie
Because there would be an outrage from the lefties about our blatant racism.
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Can we have a referendum on whether or not to fire Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond into space?
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I for one am getting tired of Scotland...I would be quite happy to take the decision for them and let them get on with it...Maybe then we can make our own regulations for England and us...Without having legislation blocked because it doesn't suit them..like they did with the recent Sunday trading laws bill....They get more per head of taxpayers money than we do in this country, while providing a deficit in contributions ...And its never ever good enough....its always more more more.....Let them have there independence and lets see how long they can afford to give free prescriptions then...I'm not entirely convinced the EU would take them on there own..They have enough negative cash drain countries as it is.....
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Yes but they have got Oil,not much of it mind and way too expensive to produce.
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I'm half expecting Mrs Krankie to be taking us to the court of European tosspots to make us pay back the Revenue on the 40 billion barrels of Oil we nicked 😜
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Don't give wee Jimmy ideas Sproty
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I'm half expecting Mrs Krankie to be taking us to the court of European tosspots to make us pay back the Revenue on the 40 billion barrels of Oil we nicked 😜
Scotland's West coast alone sat on $ 1 TRILLION of oil and gas then there is of course the remaining amount oil off both the North and East coasts . The West and North still remain relatively untouched .
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I'm half expecting Mrs Krankie to be taking us to the court of European tosspots to make us pay back the Revenue on the 40 billion barrels of Oil we nicked 😜
Scotland's West coast alone sat on $ 1 TRILLION of oil and gas then there is of course the remaining amount oil off both the North and East coasts . The West and North still remain relatively untouched .
Fact or speculation?
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-1-trillion-oil-claim-1-3529183
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The " wee Jimmy Krankie " thing is becoming as tiresome as " the Maybot " etc.
It's disingenuous and frankly wrong to be so dismissive of a nation that many want to be unhooked from the rest of the UK . Fact is those oil revenue profits have been fed to the Exchequer year after year and the ' Barnet Formula ' in some way gives the Scots something back .
Most of the big projects are in England and benefit the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland very little .
How do these areas benefit from a " Londoncentric " vision that our leaders still have . It's not just the devolved nations that miss out so do Yorkshire , the South West , North East, the Midlands etc. It's no accident that it was largely these areas of the uk that carried the Brexit vote . Ironically areas most helped by EU grants voted to stop those grants. You couldn't make this up ......That's why folk were misinformed and lied to . Why else would you want to give the Tory Party and their donors effective ownership of the country to carry on doing what they have always done I. E. Widening the North/ South and have/have nots divides even further than ever before . Turkeys voting for Christmas doesn't even half explain the crass stupidity of what happened last year.
Worse than just being not informed was the way that the electorate as a whole has been swallowing lie after lie . Lie after lie that one by one is being exposed .
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I'm half expecting Mrs Krankie to be taking us to the court of European tosspots to make us pay back the Revenue on the 40 billion barrels of Oil we nicked 😜
Scotland's West coast alone sat on $ 1 TRILLION of oil and gas then there is of course the remaining amount oil off both the North and East coasts . The West and North still remain relatively untouched .
Fact or speculation?
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/scottish-independence-1-trillion-oil-claim-1-3529183
https://www.oilandgaspeople.com/news/1039/scottish-west-coast-untapped-oil-and-gas-reserves-worth-trillions/
Whilst I realise that it says "could " , I would hope that you would find this areticle at least relatively unbiased.
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A report about oil deposits commissioned by the jobs board for oil and gas workers is unlikely to be without bias.
Which you might have understood if you'd taken the time to read the link I put up.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26326117
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A report about oil deposits commissioned by the jobs board for oil and gas workers is unlikely to be without bias.
Which you might have understood if you'd taken the time to read the link I put up.
I DID take the time to read your link hence the use of the word " COULD " in my post which you clearly missed in my post . Still I have posted a BBC report about oil revenues which frankly if accurate makes the " Barnet formula" argument against the Scots look frankly ridiculous. Mind the BBC is probably Remain/ Brexit these days so can't be trusted byou either camp can it ?
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-26326117
Scots have a 9.5 % budget deficit, guess who is funding that lot!
Looks like the UK Budget deficit is running at a similar %
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Posting links is fun:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/24/scotlands-north-sea-oil-revenues-plunge-96pc-in-a-year/
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Yep know about that one in the same way that I had already read the one you posted before you posted it . Oil revenues vary from year to year . I'm not joining in your games though , I don't want to try taking the piss out of you either.
Debating is fun providing you treat those you debate with with equal respect. Intellectually you are head and shoulders to big for me .....Therefore I'm out .
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Intellectually you are head and shoulders to big for me
I think you mean "Intellectually you are head and shoulders too big for me"
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Yep know about that one in the same way that I had already read the one you posted before you posted it . Oil revenues vary from year to year . I'm not joining in your games though , I don't want to try taking the piss out of you either.
Debating is fun providing you treat those you debate with with equal respect. Intellectually you are head and shoulders to big for me .....Therefore I'm out .
You got the monk on there hoola? 😀
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Yep know about that one in the same way that I had already read the one you posted before you posted it . Oil revenues vary from year to year . I'm not joining in your games though , I don't want to try taking the piss out of you either.
Debating is fun providing you treat those you debate with with equal respect. Intellectually you are head and shoulders to big for me .....Therefore I'm out .
You got the monk on there hoola? 😀
Wellred Filo
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What do you think about the idea of another referendum Steve?
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What do you think about the idea of another referendum Steve?
Any reason why you think it's clever to use my name ?
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Intellectually you are head and shoulders to big for me
I think you mean "Intellectually you are head and shoulders too big for me"
Not at all and I'm quite happy to debate something with you but drop the daft sarcasm .....you started the pillocking about first.
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Yep know about that one in the same way that I had already read the one you posted before you posted it . Oil revenues vary from year to year . I'm not joining in your games though , I don't want to try taking the piss out of you either.
Debating is fun providing you treat those you debate with with equal respect. Intellectually you are head and shoulders to big for me .....Therefore I'm out .
You got the monk on there hoola? 😀
Wellred Filo
Take it you two have found a new hero then .
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I saw on Facebook that many people will be going to march to Parliament against Brexit
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/march-for-europe-brexit-protest-theresa-may-speakers-time-tim-farron-a7648881.html
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What a speech! “Europe is not a market, it is the will to live together. Leaving Europe is not leaving a market, it is leaving shared dreams. We can have a common market, but if we do not have common dreams, we have nothing. Europe is the peace that came after the disaster of war. Europe is the pardon between French and Germans. Europe is the return to freedom of Greece, Spain and Portugal. Europe is the fall of the Berlin Wall. Europe is the end of communism. Europe is the welfare state, it is democracy,”
https://www.facebook.com/EPPGroup/videos/10154532798547689/
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Never mind lads, we've got our best and brightest on the case. No task too difficult, this government will stick it out no matter what to try and hash out the best deal for Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39417715 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39417715)
Or not
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What do you think about the idea of another referendum Steve?
Any reason why you think it's clever to use my name ?
Fcuk me syme don't take this the wrong way ,but why on earth would you or anyone bring
personal details like 1st names into the fold when his picked username is hoolaloop ?
It's wrong on all accounts unless Iam missing something ,and could all sorts of problems for hoolaloop
Down the line .
If Iam wrong please correct me.
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Was I replying to Hoolahoop?
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Like I said I will stand corrected if wrong ,but from what I see it certianly looks that way ,but hey it's not the first or last time I be wrong
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You do realise there's a PM function on here? If you want to ask me things that aren't really related to the topic at hand I'm more than happy for you to drop me a line. I suspect it's quite boring for anyone else to read.
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What do you think about the idea of another referendum Steve?
Any reason why you think it's clever to use my name ?
Fcuk me syme don't take this the wrong way ,but why on earth would you or anyone bring
personal details like 1st names into the fold when his picked username is hoolaloop ?
It's wrong on all accounts unless Iam missing something ,and could all sorts of problems for hoolaloop
Down the line .
If Iam wrong please correct me.
Not getting involved in the whys and wherefores of why he used his name as I don't really care but others have called hoola by his first name before on here so can't see it causing hoola any problems.
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It's been sorted out via PM ,and it seems I jumped the gun so I will go public aswell and sorry chaps for making a pigs ear of things.