Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: balbyrover on April 24, 2017, 06:30:27 pm
-
New drama tonight based on the shooting of Rhys Jones by Sean Mercer.
Looks like it will be interesting
-
Thanks for that ,that will stop me having to watch the barcodes vs preston nob end .
-
Don't know if this bit actually happened ,but the part where the mother is kissing and stroking her dead sons head as he under the Everton flag in the hospital or wherever it is .
Then the police women warns the poor mother that she will be arrested if she don't stop touching the evidence.
Please don't tell me this is true
-
It carrys on next Monday .
You must think of the poor family after this boys dreadfull death.
I don't think I would have the strength to allow a tv production to be made about the events of their loss.they certainly have a lot more than what I have as a human .
-
It really was heartbreaking,I could never imagine having to go through something like the family has and like you say,so strong to allow a tv drama to be based on it.
Mercer is a w**ker, he showed no signs of remorse for what he did and is still a scumbag behind bars, stabbed a fellow prisoner with a pair of tweezers recently.. He won't change. Waste of oxygen should have been hung.
Hope some of the members of that gangs are watching and can see what they caused,and the heartbreak that Rhys Jones family have gone through... all because they thought they were the top dogs on the streets.
-
Thanks for that bally1950 the bit where what I think was a policewomen stopping the mother from touching her dead son because of ' evidencd ' and threatened the mother with arrest > really hit a nerve with me.
I like to think it's not true and if I was placed in the same situation wild horses would not have held me back ,arrest or no arrest.
-
What have you got against Scousers?
-
In my day they was known for carrying blades and not just a normall blade where a slice down your face could be repaired to some extent.
The scouse lads would tape two Stanley blades together and any chance of your face getting fixed up back to normall after one of those attacks was impossible.
Recall getting chased by shit loads of them after a york v lpool facup game.i dived under a parked car just before they come round the corner as they all stood about within eye and ear shot.
All I could see was untold bleached jeans with various adidas trainers as they shouted out ' when we catch the Yorkshire bas**rd we will cut him'
Please god if I get out of this I will never go to the footy again.
Must have stayed under that car for 30 mins after they moved on.dragged myself out and straight to york station for next train back to donny where I meet up with rest of donny lads.
Then the scouse mob that had been on our tails sometime previous approached us on york station and told us how lucky I was as few of them flashed their blades.
Hate to think what type of mess i could have been in
-
Whilst that's fascinating, that's not really scousers is it, that's hooligans. Bally1950 seems to have a chip on his shoulders about scousers, just wondering where that comes from. I know you like answering his questions for him, but perhaps he'll offer some insight of his own. His Hillsborough comment is particularly interesting.
-
I answered the question from my point of view and experience only
fella ,in hope it keeps the thread turning over .
-
One of Mrs. F's mates is a scouser (living in Donny for well over a decade) and although she's a nice lass with whom I get on well enough the old stereotype is very true. The emotion is always turned up to eleven and there's always some sort of drama in her family. It's a guessing game from one week to the next whether she'll say "I'll never speak to my dad again, he's a heartless, evil bas**rd" or ""I'm so glad my dad's the way he is, because my boys will learn to never let anyone push them around."
She could start a fight in an empty room and goes from raging anger to a sobbing mess about nineteen times an hour. Every wall of her house is covered in family photos and those godawful stencils that say things like "A house is made of bricks and tiles but a family's made of love and smiles" and other such sentimental b*llocks.
-
I went to Liverpool Uni in the late 70s, loved the place, the working class culture, the pub on every Street corner, the humour, two football clubs, two cathedrals etc etc
Then my car was broken into and stripped of parts.
Then walking home from the pub one night a big gang was beating up a lad on the floor. My mate said something (mistake) and soon they were beating him up and kicking me out of the way.
A few weeks later I was beaten up by a middle aged thug in a fish and chip shop.
I left Liverpool and came back home but went back to visit a friend there.
We went to an Everton game (the people's team) and after the game was asked what the time was by a young lad.
On detecting a Yorkshire accent we were soon being chased by a feral mob of teenaged hooligans and I, as a peace loving guy, also found myself hiding under a car.
And then there were the riots in Toxteth.
And then as a result of vile crimes committed by it's own citizens it turned itself into the world capital of self pity.
Having said that, the waterfront is nice now.
-
It really was heartbreaking,I could never imagine having to go through something like the family has and like you say,so strong to allow a tv drama to be based on it.
Mercer is a w**ker, he showed no signs of remorse for what he did and is still a scumbag behind bars, stabbed a fellow prisoner with a pair of tweezers recently.. He won't change. Waste of oxygen should have been hung.
Hope some of the members of that gangs are watching and can see what they caused,and the heartbreak that Rhys Jones family have gone through... all because they thought they were the top dogs on the streets.
I heard from an extremely reliable source that after his conviction he spent some time in Doncaster prison and had as bad a time as you can imagine in prison.
-
I've never understood this self pity line about Liverpool. Against a back drop of Hillsborough I'd say they have ever right to feel somewhat aggrieved.
-
Yes, Hillsborough was a tragedy and the cover-up was a disgrace. I think you'd be hard-pushed to find anyone who doesn't agree that they have a right to feel aggrieved about that.
I'm not old enough to remember Liverpool before Hillsborough but I'd be surprised if there wasn't already an underlying culture of exaggerated emotion in the place.
-
Tricky thing to measure.
-
Tricky thing to measure.
Yes it is.
If Hillsborough hadn't happened I don't think the wife's mate (and her entire family) would be any different though.
-
One of Mrs. F's mates is a scouser (living in Donny for well over a decade) and although she's a nice lass with whom I get on well enough the old stereotype is very true. The emotion is always turned up to eleven and there's always some sort of drama in her family. It's a guessing game from one week to the next whether she'll say "I'll never speak to my dad again, he's a heartless, evil bas**rd" or ""I'm so glad my dad's the way he is, because my boys will learn to never let anyone push them around."
She could start a fight in an empty room and goes from raging anger to a sobbing mess about nineteen times an hour. Every wall of her house is covered in family photos and those godawful stencils that say things like "A house is made of bricks and tiles but a family's made of love and smiles" and other such sentimental b*llocks.
I call that peasant mentality.
-
What have you got against Scousers?
Hillsboro. and Heyshell (if that is how you spell it) Poor Scouse victims.
But scousers were victims at Hillsborough. Victims of the police.
-
But they were the ones who pushed at the gates and they were the ones that ran down the tunnel, not the Police, Not the Government nobody else but them.
Whose job was it to manage the crowd that day and to close the tunnel when the central pens were full?
-
You're basically stating that you disagree with a comprehensive review of all the evidence which absolved Liverpool fans of any blame, based on nothing more than the fact you had some coins thrown at you once.
You can't educate pork.
-
Whilst that's fascinating, that's not really scousers is it, that's hooligans. Bally1950 seems to have a chip on his shoulders about scousers, just wondering where that comes from. I know you like answering his questions for him, but perhaps he'll offer some insight of his own. His Hillsborough comment is particularly interesting.
Read the post again syme as it was only SCOUSE lads that spent the time to wrapped two Stanley blades together and stripe you in the face knowing that two blades tapped together makes a complete mess of your face inrespect of the normall one blade.
It was a scouse trade mark fella.
-
Are you expecting criminal proceedings to be issued against Liverpool fans?
-
Wonder if Italians think there was some higher karma after what happened the year before at Heysel.
-
Think a good thread is on its way to being ruined here. End of the day you get scum in all walks of life regardless of race,religion or where they're born.
Theres good scousers;there is scum Scousers.
Theres good yorkies,there is scum yorkies.
Etc,etc.
No point squabbling over facts.
-
That event at heysel ,this will upset some but the mind set of the a few scousers that day was payback for when they played juventus in a European away fixture the season before where untold lpool fans got stabbed.
Then officials at LFC to pass the blame onto a group Chelsea NF that was present at heysel in their eyes and minds.
-
Are you expecting criminal proceedings to be issued against Liverpool fans?
That is up to the CPS - Read what I said again..
I asked your expectations, I didn't ask what the CPS is doing.
However, if the CPS don't prosecute any Liverpool fans, would you then accept they were not to blame?
-
I haven't seen anyone pointing fingers at bobbies - what I have seen is you blaming the victims for their own demise.
I think the evidence presented to date has been pretty clear in its findings. A catastrophic failure in crowd management by the police caused the deaths of 96 innocent people. And the responsibility for crowd management falls with those at the top, not those on the ground.
For you to start churning out words like "mob" does nothing but attempt to shift the blame from those who are culpable to those who are not. If, and when, there are no prosecutions of Liverpool fans by the CPS, I would hope you would accept that 'Scousers' were the victims that day.
But I don't expect you will, because you seem to think you personally know more than an inquest which lasted 2 years.
-
Before I read any more....Your first line is bang out of order and if you check the many posts I have made on Liverpool fans at Hillsboro NOT ONCE HAVE I BLAMED THE LIVERPOOL FANS FOR THEIR OWN DEATHS. Now you really must not go jumping to conclusions. I shall now read the rest.
Of course you haven't...
What have you got against Scousers?
Hillsboro. and Heyshell (if that is how you spell it) Poor Scouse victims.
-
I thick I am done here
I couldn't have put it any better myself.
Your ignorance to the facts is quite frankly disgusting.
-
Is that all you got.???????? A misspelled word cor you are very clever - Take no notice of anything I say I am crackers and it is recorded so. I take the tablets to prove it to.. Welcome to my world won't you step inside ?
You have no interest in the facts.
For example you claimed people were in the ground watching the match in an orderly manner. How did the coroner find deaths occurred from 14:57 onward?
-
It's called accountability
Seems like ignorance is bliss for you
-
It appears the old bill will set any f**ker on.
-
This Hillsboro thing Iam on the footing that blame stands at the doors of all party's as in the FA ,police and the fans them selves.
The FA > was Hillsboro the correct stadium as it was an accident waiting to happen going on previous games held there and he fact that lpool fans were placed at leppings lane end.
SYP > cant really 2nd guess their actions before the incident ,but they do need to be looked into for the cover up they played out afterwards,and this comes from the very top of SYP not pitch side police officers.
Lpool fans > it's impossible to not take into account the disorder or panic that was panning out outside the ground upto the events > back then it was normall and accepted and boasted about within lpool fans the amount of fans that would turn up to jib in at whatever game.> the more massive the game the bigger the numbers will try to jib in and will get in.
All three points above overlap each other no matter what way you look at it .
-
Problem is there's no evidence to support your third point about the fans. It's a line trotted out from time to time, but there's no basis for it.
-
Syme you can take it from me that lpool fans jibbing into grounds via whatever means is FACT .
It happened on the day of Hillsboro and it happened at games before Hillsboro aswell as at games after Hillsboro with lpool fans.
You can bet your house on the FACT that it also happened at the famous lpool game out in Istanbul some years after hillsboro but in a far more subline way.
It will be very hard too find out the number of lpool fans that went too Hillsboro with intent of jibbing in,but the way events played out that day for any ticketless lpool fans would have been a very very easy jib.
It's hard to then take out of the account that some lpool fans helped cause the problems at leppings lane.
In hindsight the forest fans should have had leppings lane and lpool the Hillsboro Koop ,that would have helped but you would still have had the jibbers.
-
Syme there is a basis for it with some supporters about at that time,that like myself were caught up in it at other grounds, prior to Hillsborough.
-
I recall been outside the ground some 10
/15 mins after a york city v lpool facup game had kicked offf way before Hillsboro .
There was quite a few lpool still outside the ground without tickets as match tickets were been passed down back to them from inside the ground.
So you can only guess how many more jibber she would be out for a facup semi final.
-
not on facebook - thanks for the assurance but just because you say something doesn't make it fact. So i'm afraid it's just unsubstantiated speculation
selby - whilst i have no doubts you experience that, it has no real relevance to Hillsborough.
The Taylor Report addresses the ticketless fans argument. It doesn't stack up, not in any scale that would hold individuals responsible. Across all the pens, they were under capacity, a lot of people were still outside. The problem was the pens in the centre were wildly over capacity due to a failure by the police to close off the access tunnel.
First, there was a wide range of witnesses who observed inside the ground that the Liverpool end was at a late stage well below capacity save for pens 3 and 4. The north stand still had many empty seats and the wing pens were sparse. The match being a sell-out, there were clearly many ticket holders to come and they could account for the large crowd still outside the turnstiles. Had the Liverpool accommodation been full by 2.40pm, one could have inferred that most or much of the large crowd outside lacked tickets.
Secondly, such figures as are available from the Club's electronic monitoring system and from analyses by the HSE suggest that no great number entered without tickets. They show that the number who passed through turnstiles A to G plus those who entered through gate C roughly equalled the terrace capacity figure of 10,100 for which tickets had been sold. The Club's record showed 7,038 passed through turnstiles A to G.
However, the counting mechanism on turnstile G was defective, so the HSE did a study using the video film and projecting figures from the other turnstiles. This gave an assessment of 7,494, with a maximum of 7,644 passing through A to G. Again, using the video, the HSE assessed the number who entered the ground whilst gate C was open at 2,240 with a maximum of 2,480. Accordingly, the HSE's best estimate of the total entering through gate C and turnstiles A to G was 9,734 with a maximum of 10,124.1 recognise that these can only be rough checks because, for example, some with terrace tickets were allowed through turnstiles 1 to 16 and there
would be other similar factors which have not formed part of the assessment. Nevertheless, the figures do suggest that there was not a very significant body of ticketless fans in the crowd which built up
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/sites/default/files/Taylor%20Interim%20Report.pdf
-
Syme is your life built on facts that can be backed up
While the police are doing their upmost to controll the disorder and panic outside the gates on leppings lane ,it would have been a jibbers perfect smoke screen to get into the ground amongst all the chaos .
Iam not putting any certain % the blame onto the jibbers as I don't know the exact numbers but for sure any ticketless lpool fan that day got in as the gates were opened.
-
When you're apportioning blame for the deaths of 96 people it's quite important to rely on facts that can be backed up.
And a point of order, the 'disorder' outside the gates - that was also of the police's making.
-
Welcome to my world... The first Coroner said all those who were dead were dead earlier than they actually were but nobody held him to account. Won't you come inside - it is nice in here. Nobody cares. 1989 a lot has happened since then. So people died and others are looking for someone to blame, it is nice in here. :suicide: :suicide: :suicide: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :chair: :chair: :chair: :chair: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:
I care, it's called JUSTICE.
-
Nice story.
What's it got to do with the Hillsborough disaster?
-
Strange answer to a straightforward question.
-
Unless I get the wrong end of the stick syme you don't accept that jibbing in don't happen and put it down to hear say .
I have said it happens ,another chap said it happens and now bally1950 has remarked that he has seen it while on duty.
It's normally for threads to go down different roads from the main title as in this case ,but you seem not to take onboard that jibbing takes place.
The reason why it can't be backed up is becsaue it's not against the law and I doubt anyone has ever been arrested for it hence no records > so it can't be backed up on paper.
Back to Hillsboro ,it's out in the open for whoever to make their mind up on if the jibbing culture which was at its peak back then if it played into the events that day .
I for one would not be supprised if it did ,but to how large an extent it played is anyone's guess,
Like I said a few posts back and in order I personally blame > The FA for the match day problems before kick off > SYP for the cover up > lpool fans to some extent for chaos outside >
Every action has a reaction and all 3 actions above played a part in various extents to what happened at Hillsboro.
If there had not been this terrible day at Hillsboro ,the FA would have played the followings year semi final at Hillsboro > and that's after problems with Spurs fans getting crushed in exact same pen for the wolves v Spurs semi final the previous year along with league games that have been played at Hillsboro when a large away following in the exact same pen.
-
I for one would not be supprised if it did ,but to how large an extent it played is anyone's guess,
Like I said a few posts back and in order I personally blame > The FA for the match day problems before kick off > SYP for the cover up > lpool fans to some extent for chaos outside >
You obviously haven't read my previous posts. I provided figures for this, taken from the Taylor report. There was likely to have been some small scale 'jibbing' but not on a scale that would have contributed to the disaster.
And you haven't read my other post about the chaos outside the turnstiles. This was of the police's making. Again, that's detailed in the Taylor report.
-
No report is going to change what I think wrong or right ,as a rule of thumb I just don't trust them and Iam more than happy to plod along with my mind set .
The Taylor report could be bang on ,but I have never read it .
I think that the blame 1st starts at the top with the FA !then filters downwards through other causes.
If there had been no police cover up about the time of deaths in the first place and that order came from above them I guess I doubt there would have been half the fallout over the event.
I mean when the police are found out to have changed witness statements and even statements from their own officers who served that day ,you tend to lose all belief in authority .thats when I made my mind up on events ,to which I don't think Iam that far from the mark.
No report by justice whoever will turn my head > because they come from near enough the same circles and authority.
Would not trust anyone from that part if british establishment if they told me what day it was.
-
What has hooliganism got to do with Hillsborough?
-
What has hooliganism got to do with Hillsborough?
I will give you one answer that question that don't need no research or official facts and figures
Fencing
No holligans > no fencing around english satdiums pitch side > no Hillsboro problems .
-
So the fences and pens that were a big part in this disaster were nothing to do with hooliganism?
In the 1923 FA cup final there were at least 123,000 in a Wembley with a capacity of 100,000. Imagine that scenario with a hooligan element of later years involved.
I also remember Liverpool at Wembley years later and fans climbing up walls to get in. Some fans will always travel to games without a ticket.
-
I'm talking about the events of the day. In what part was hooliganism on the day responsible for what happened?
-
Talking of losing, I'm increasingly convinced that you are losing your mind.
But back to the topic in hand - you mentioned hooliganism in the context of Hillsborough. It's a bit of a long shot, but could you explain what you meant by this?
not on facebook - given the fences went up as a result of hooliganism, why are you not on your list of things to blame? Perhaps you could swap yourself for the Liverpool fans you previously held responsible?
-
It's a bit of a long shot, but could you explain what you meant by this?
:suicide:
Yes, I thought it might be.
If you are indicative of the organisation for whom you worked, it's no wonder it took 27 years to get justice.
-
If the police hadn't opened the gates and fans had died there would have been hell on and they would have been blamed.
We only know that opening the gates was the wrong decision because of what followed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
The thing that is wrong is any lies told by the police to cover anything up.
It doesn't make it right but in a state of panic some people tell lies and then dig themselves in deeper.
-
Two things on that idler.
Firstly, the crowd outside the gates formed as a result of police failures. They didn't open enough turnstiles and they didn't perform checks further away from the ground as they had in previous years. In 1988 an informal cordon was established to control flow rates to the ground. There was 172 less officers working in 1989 than in 1988 and Duckenfield himself has said he wasn't aware of the cordons the previous year and that it should have been thought about.
Secondly, if you're going to open the gates, you need to plan for what happens next. There was a plan called the Freeman Tactic, which says close the tunnel off and direct people to the side pens. This tactic wasn't used. Duckenfield has admitted that this was the direct cause of 96 deaths.
-
In that case then Syme surely Duckenfield Bears most of the responsibility for the decision making. I'm sure that I read something that he was only given this particular event because he knew someone higher up while better qualified, more experienced senior officers were overlooked or discounted.
-
Ultimately he was the man at the top on the day and does bear the responsibility - which he has admitted:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31928476
The further cases for the CPS may relate to cover-ups and things like that.
-
Syme is your life built on facts that can be backed up
Everybody's life is based on facts. To be otherwise means you live in a fantasy.
-
Everybody's life is based on facts. To be otherwise means you live in a fantasy.
Quite...
"Welcome to my world, won't you come inside"...... :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome:
-
And I thought Life On Mars was a neat piece of drama. I never realised it was a documentary till now.
-
WE should all base our lives on facts. We shouldn't listen to anybody unless they can back their story with facts.
I made that mistake living the first 50 years of my life thinking Pluto was the ninth planet, and the early stages of my adolescence believing that w**king made you blind.
-
In this analogy, some would have you believe that Pluto doesn't exist, because they looked through a pair of binoculars and it wasn't there. Although that could be because they're just massive w**kers.
-
Can you back that up with facts?
-
Whilst ontology and epistemology are both fascinating fields, I'm not sure we could do them justice on here
-
Is that a fact? And here's me thinking this thread is all about epistemology!
-
It's only a fact theoretically. :laugh: :silly:
-
After all of the fall out from Hillsborough, it still amazes me that so many Liverpool fans entered the stadium for the Champions League final in Athens without tickets. I remember the scenes there and it was frightening and alarming.
Lots of lessons had to be learned following Hillsborough. Policing, stewarding, stadium design. But I thought it was very sad to see some Liverpool fans put other fans at risk again by gaining entry without tickets.
Hillsborough was a tragic accident. Nobody wanted it to happen and many factors were at fault. Not one individual or body. Personally I don't think there's anything to be gained from further persecution. My thoughts remain with the families and loved ones of those that lost their lives.
-
In my view, the use of the word "accident" is not appropriate at all Jonathan. Arron Banks was recently criticised for using that term.
Charlotte Hennessy, who lost her dad at Hillsborough responded to Banks was that "it was a completely preventable disaster caused by gross negligence that resulted in 96 people unlawfully killed. Actually.”
I tend to agree with her.
-
In my view, the use of the word "accident" is not appropriate at all Jonathan. Arron Banks was recently criticised for using that term.
Charlotte Hennessy, who lost her dad at Hillsborough responded to Banks was that "it was a completely preventable disaster caused by gross negligence that resulted in 96 people unlawfully killed. Actually.”
I tend to agree with her.
Most accidents are preventable by a different set of circumstances.
Nobody wanted that to happen. Absolutely nobody. Not the people that designed the stadium pens, not the police or stewards that opened the gates and allowed the fans in, not the fans forcing entry without tickets. There were lots of mistakes and errors of judgement on the part of police, stewards and fans. It's tragic and so sad. But I take issue with any insinuation that those deaths were caused intentionally. They were not.
-
Of course nobody wanted it to happen. I think the use of the word "accident" however is somewhat loaded for some people, in the sense that accidents happen and there's not a lot that could have been done. Which in this case, we know could not be further from the truth.
I notice you've also brought up the ticketless fans, I'm genuinely interested why you feel it deserves mentioning. To take just one line from the HIP:
The panel found no evidence... to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans
-
Of course nobody wanted it to happen. I think the use of the word "accident" however is somewhat loaded for some people, in the sense that accidents happen and there's not a lot that could have been done. Which in this case, we know could not be further from the truth.
I notice you've also brought up the ticketless fans, I'm genuinely interested why you feel it deserves mentioning. To take just one line from the HIP:
The panel found no evidence... to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans
"The panel found no evidence of" is interesting wording. I'm not sure what documentary evidence of ticketlessness one would expect the panel to have found. Added to which I think there was a hell of a lot of pressure on that panel. Understandable really as elements of the press coverage and police cover up are inexcusable. But to suggest that the behaviour of some fans had no influence on what happened is utter nonsense. We can argue semantics forever, but I would still stand by my point that a number of factors caused that disaster including policing, stewarding, stadium design and the behaviour of some fans.
-
Of course nobody wanted it to happen. I think the use of the word "accident" however is somewhat loaded for some people, in the sense that accidents happen and there's not a lot that could have been done. Which in this case, we know could not be further from the truth.
I notice you've also brought up the ticketless fans, I'm genuinely interested why you feel it deserves mentioning. To take just one line from the HIP:
The panel found no evidence... to verify the serious allegations of exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans
"The panel found no evidence of" is interesting wording. I'm not sure what documentary evidence of ticketlessness one would expect the panel to have found. Added to which I think there was a hell of a lot of pressure on that panel. Understandable really as elements of the press coverage and police cover up are inexcusable. But to suggest that the behaviour of some fans had no influence on what happened is utter nonsense. We can argue semantics forever, but I would still stand by my point that a number of factors caused that disaster including policing, stewarding, stadium design and the behaviour of some fans.
It's interesting that you consider it to be nonsense. The inquest disagreed with you.
Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
The jury said no.
What evidence were you privy to that they weren't?
-
Mine is an impartial opinion.
Imagine the outcry if they'd have said yes. Perhaps it's a carefully worded question.
-
Clearly it's an opinion, my question is, what is it based on?
-
Two things on that idler.
Firstly, the crowd outside the gates formed as a result of police failures. They didn't open enough turnstiles and they didn't perform checks further away from the ground as they had in previous years. In 1988 an informal cordon was established to control flow rates to the ground. There was 172 less officers working in 1989 than in 1988 and Duckenfield himself has said he wasn't aware of the cordons the previous year and that it should have been thought about.
Secondly, if you're going to open the gates, you need to plan for what happens next. There was a plan called the Freeman Tactic, which says close the tunnel off and direct people to the side pens. This tactic wasn't used. Duckenfield has admitted that this was the direct cause of 96 deaths.
The semi final at hillasboro before the lpool v forest was Spurs v wolves and numerous Spurs fans that were held in leppings lane came out with various crush injurys after been in exact same pen > why I place blame on FA who sleeved walked into holding the lpool v forest semi there the season after.
I was at a SWFC v CFC league cup quarter final replay at Hillsboro and all seats upstairs were sold out so had no choice to stand on leppings lane.this game was before the lpool v forest incident.
I went down that tunnel into middle pen but gates were closed and locked to pens either side ,and it was a very very very tight squeeze whilst in the tunnel and as soon as I got out to the terrace I was lifted up from the ground via the crush that was going on.i basically floated around that middle pen for over a minute as my body went with the flow and when my feet did hit the deck ,my back was facing the pitch.
It was quite a nice experience if Iam honest as I was floating and had no problems breathing,but Chelsea fans were trying to climb over fence into the empty pens but SYP beat them back.
After a short time SYP woke up and smelt the coffee and the gates were opened into empty pen.
There was no social media back then so other fans would not have known what can go wrong with leppings lane middle terrace ,but for sure the FA and FL must have had incident reports on the two games I mentioned above .i guess it happened at more games aswell.
No matter what crowd controll flow police have outside Hillsboro ,leppings lane middle pen was a accident waiting to happen due to leppings lane been fenced off into three sections.
It's reported that the policeman on duty that day has a huge share of the blame as he called the shots ,what about the FA who kept on using Hillsboro as they must have read reports on the SWFC v CFC game and the Spurs v wolves game were fans did get taken out with various crush injurys
-
Fair points Oslo. The Spurs Wolves game was actually in 1981, which makes it worse that nothing was done over the subsequent decade.
The inquest provides some answers to infrastructure issues:
Question 8: defects in Hillsborough stadium
Were there any features of the design, construction and layout of the stadium which you consider were dangerous or defective and which caused or contributed to the disaster?
Jury’s answer: Yes.
Question 9: licensing and oversight of Hillsborough stadium
Was there any error or omission in the safety certification and oversight of Hillsborough stadium that caused or contributed to the disaster?
Jury’s answer: Yes.
Explanation:
The safety certificate was never amended to reflect the changes at the Leppings Lane end of the stadium, therefore capacity figures were never updated
The capacity figures for the Leppings Lane terraces were incorrectly calculated when the safety certificate was first issued
The safety certificate had not been reissued since 1986
Question 10: conduct of Sheffield Wednesday FC before the day of the match
Was there any error or omission by Sheffield Wednesday FC (and its staff) in the management of the stadium and/or preparation for the semi-final match on 15 April, 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed on the day of the match?
Jury’s answer: Yes.
Explanation:
The club did not approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles for each pen
The club did not agree on any contingency plans with the police
There was inadequate signage and inaccurate/misleading information on the semi-final tickets
Question 11: conduct of Sheffield Wednesday FC on the day of the match
Was there any error or omission by SWFC and its staff on 15 April 1989 which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?
Jury’s answer: No.
11a If “no”, was there any error or omission by SWFC and its staff on 15 April 1989 which may have caused or contributed to the dangerous situation that developed at the Leppings Lane turnstiles and in the west terrace?
Jury’s answer: Yes
Question 12: conduct of Eastwood & Partners
Should Eastwood & Partners [the club’s consultant engineers] have done more to detect and advise on any unsafe or unsatisfactory features of Hillsborough stadium which caused or contributed to the disaster?
Jury’s answer: Yes.
Explanation:
Eastwoods did not make their own calculations when they became consultants for SWFC, therefore the initial capacity figures and all subsequent calculations were incorrect
Eastwoods failed to recalculate capacity figures each time changes were made to the terraces
Eastwoods failed to update the safety certificate after 1986
Eastwoods failed to recognise that the removal of barrier 144 and the partial removal of barrier 136 could result in a dangerous situation in the pens
-
Would have Eastwood known or been given reports on the Spurs/ wolves or SWFC/ Chelsea issues of any other game ?
Like I said you have to start from the top and it's the FA who are at the top of that tree in my book as I find it impossible for them not to know anything about the two games above ,and that's for starters.
-
If, as you say bally1950, the police were aware of the dangers of Hillsborough, you'd think they'd have been extra vigilant.
Instead, they put a novice in charge and reduced resources.
-
Anything to do with this?
The South Yorkshire police chief superintendent who had experience of commanding football matches at Hillsborough was transferred 19 days before the 1989 FA Cup semi-final, shortly after officers in his division played a brutal "prank" on a probationary constable involving a gun.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/07/most-experienced-police-commander-prank-transfer-hillsborough-disaster
-
Anything to do with this?
The South Yorkshire police chief superintendent who had experience of commanding football matches at Hillsborough was transferred 19 days before the 1989 FA Cup semi-final, shortly after officers in his division played a brutal "prank" on a probationary constable involving a gun.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/jul/07/most-experienced-police-commander-prank-transfer-hillsborough-disaster
I don't know about Mole, but it does raise the intriguing question of what was the impropriety of Brayford's behaviour that caused him to be transferred..?
-
The court heard that Mr Brayford was tipped off about his own transfer out of F Division, where the ground is based, by a junior of Mr Duckenfield.
The witness said he was told he was being moved because he had usurped the authority of his superior, Superintendent Roger Marshall. However, the jury heard claims that the real reason was because of inappropriate behaviour with a female colleague.
http://www.itv.com/news/granada/update/2014-09-05/hillsborough-match-planner-was-transferred-before-disaster/
-
The Freeman Tactic would, in theory, have prevented any loss of life. Close the tunnel and the crowds go to the side pens.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course. But there was precedent for this. And Duckenfield wasn't aware of it.
And fundamentally, that's why the verdict of accidental death was overturned for one of unlawful killing.
Duckenfield had a duty of care and he failed in it.
-
You have the same few minutes as Mr Duckenfield had.
Do we have the training that Mr Dukenfield should have had as well?
-
You have the same few minutes as Mr Duckenfield had.
Do we have the training that Mr Dukenfield should have had as well?
Which, in his defence, wasn't a great deal apparently.
-
Them two fcukers will allways sideswipe a question if they don't like the answer they have to give ,it's human nature .
I will answer the question from my point of view and i would have opened the gates just like duckfield > any says different is not human.
It's dam rude to answer a question with another question and a tact that clever dicks use very well.
-
They say you learn something new every day and bally1950 has pointed out the SYP had worries holding the lpool v forest semi final at Hillsboro but the fcuking FA and Sheffield city council blanked what the police were worried about.
Like I said some on page 3 of this thread it starts at the top with the FA and goes down the ladder .
Would love to know why SYP had issues holding the semi final at Hillsboro ,and I have a guess that crush incidents at previous games might be the reason.
I just picture syme and Glynn holding a cabinet meeting trying to dig up whatever facts to discredit your recent facts Bally
-
You have the same few minutes as Mr Duckenfield had.
Do we have the training that Mr Dukenfield should have had as well?
No, just common sense will do, It has been stated that he had not been given any training and this was his first major match, nowhere in Police Training can yo quantify the disaster happening or even the likelihood of anything on that possibility, if it had been thought possible then that match and all such Premier League games would never take place. So come on just a simple answer. The problems were at the gates that had been closed br SWFC not the Police
The problems at the gate were caused by not having an outer corden to control the flow of fans towards the ground, which was customary at previous matches of this nature. Now then, tell me whose responsibility was it to have employed an outer corden?
Trying to get us to make a hypothetical decision about what we'd do about the gates after the problem has already been caused is utterly futile and irrelevant. But, just to satisfy Olso and answer the question anyway, what I would have done is thought to myself 'Oh shit, I've made a huge cock-up. How can I deny my responsibility and blame someone else? Note to self: I must remember to get the lads to 'lose' the CCTV tapes.'
-
You have the same few minutes as Mr Duckenfield had.
Do we have the training that Mr Dukenfield should have had as well?
Which, in his defence, wasn't a great deal apparently.
A clue would be to study the Public Order Act 1986 which was produced just three years prior to the match and such public disorder throughout the 1980@s meant change after change. Steel Strike. Miners Strike the Steel Strike and various other major Public Disorder ie. Toxteth. St Pauls in Bristol. London. Bradford And many other major areas. Every single one was different but non on comparison to Sheffield.
I've just had a look at the Act, and it is only about what constitutes public order offenses and how they are categorised I ca't see anything related to general crowd control or how it affects how the police may or may not direct the public in situations where there are no public order offenses taking place.
-
So in your hypothetical scenario Bally1950, not only do we have to imagine we're in a bit of a pickle, we also have to imagine that we're also incompetent? Quite strict criteria you're enforcing.
Let's be clear about this, Duckenfield had access to all the information he needed to ensure a safe experience for the fans. He was provided with a report detailing the crowd management of the 1988 semi-final. He didn't read it. He read the Green Guide, assumed that meant the stewards were responsible and failed to grasp that the police, which he was in charge of, had actually taken responsibility.
And Oslo, once you've finished noshing off PC Bally - you might ask him to present evidence of his claim that the police wanted to move the game. I'm not saying it isn't true, but it's the only thing you've chosen to believe yet it's the only claim that hasn't been backed up with any evidence. Strange that.
You've also evaded a point a raised previously. As a self-confessed football hooligan, do you feel any degree of culpability for creating the environment within which a tragedy such as Hillsborough could unfold?
-
Second part is on tonight,ITV1 9pm.
-
So in your hypothetical scenario Bally1950, not only do we have to imagine we're in a bit of a pickle, we also have to imagine that we're also incompetent? Quite strict criteria you're enforcing.
Let's be clear about this, Duckenfield had access to all the information he needed to ensure a safe experience for the fans. He was provided with a report detailing the crowd management of the 1988 semi-final. He didn't read it. He read the Green Guide, assumed that meant the stewards were responsible and failed to grasp that the police, which he was in charge of, had actually taken responsibility.
And Oslo, once you've finished noshing off PC Bally - you might ask him to present evidence of his claim that the police wanted to move the game. I'm not saying it isn't true, but it's the only thing you've chosen to believe yet it's the only claim that hasn't been backed up with any evidence. Strange that.
You've also evaded a point a raised previously. As a self-confessed football hooligan, do you feel any degree of culpability for creating the environment within which a tragedy such as Hillsborough could unfold?
Without spending any time trawling throu reports about this Hillsboro I have said all along in this thread that the blame starts at the top and filters down > FA > SYP > fans actions.
The sole reason why I place the FA at the top was because of issues at the previous Spurs v wolves semi final and my experience at the SWFC V CFC game.> I take it for granted that the FA must have read a report on the two incidents above but still placed cup semi finals at Hillsboro after the Spurs v wolves game.
On strength of above I don't need any reports to point my finger at the FA.then bally1950 adds a fact that SYP tasked questions about the lpool v forest game been held at Hillsboro ,I never knew that as I don't track back ,but it's good enough for me as I still come to exact same conclusion without bally1950 input or not .
The FA have too shoulder some of the blame as they did not have the interests of football supporters as they must have known about previous issues.
I bet my last $$$ that the middle pen at Hillsboro has had more than the two games mentioned above crushing issues to various extents with the lpool v forest game been worst case .i can't back this up with any reports or a paper trail it's just my gutt fealings .
If no had died at the lpool v forest game or there had been any serious crush incidents ,the FA would have played the next and next semi finals at the Hillsboro ticking time bomb ,untill deaths happened .
-
There are so many factual inaccuracies, slurs and outright lies in your posts bally1950 that there seems little point to me in continuing this.
Oslo - I see once again you didn't answer my question about the culpability of hooligans in creating the environment in which Hillsborough was possible. Perhaps you missed it.
-
YOU ask why the Police did not cordon off the area to assist with the rush,,,,well because nobody knew the pre planned tactics being employed by the fans, who despite your views were in pubs till nearly k o time, I cannot say more. What I will say on your points of Intelligence - Which Police Force have refused to be party to this enquiry and have claimed immunity. Which football club have suffered most? .
The previous year there were only a few bobbies at the rail station to meet the fans, (without it was believed there to be a problem) but they were wrong and there were insufficient Bobbies to deal with that crowd.
This time there were three times as many Bobbies for an expected very large of unruly fans as in previous year, and only a small number got off and many were families. SYP were met with a complaint by them of harassment and over policing. I tell you I cannot and will not pass on information I am aware of. You can search the web "Which ironically you ridiculed me for a while back to back up my argument well you certainly want to go all out on this do you not"
NOw do your research and come back with answers for me will you because I really feel like a headmaster giving homework to two little boys. Who know nothing and are made to search for information. I may be a minority on this now but there are many who think the same as me and Know more than anyone. I suggest that is the CPS.
You may well have got away with your "Cover Up" theory but you do not understand the Laws of Evidence and Opinion is not allowed. UNLESS you are totally qualified to give that opinion.
Anyway as someone has pointed out the second part of the drama is on tonight and I can tell you I will not watch it nor did I watch the first one. Lets see what the Scallies have really got up to.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that every other time an outer corden was employed at Hillsborough prior to this match that it was because the police knew of the 'pre-planned tactics' of the fans, and not because it was standard crowd control procedure??
Oh, and as for as for the number of bobbies there on the day, it is yet again another thing that was irrelevant to how the disaster happened. It was what they were told (or not told) to do, not how many of them did (or didn't do) it.
PS I used to conduct Interviews Under Caution. And you have the barefaced cheek to say I do not understand Laws of Evidence, and am not qualifed to comment?
PPS I still don't know why you directed us to the Public Order Act 1986, nor which Section of it is what you think is relevant to Hillsborough.
-
172 fewer bobbies there in 1989 than there had been in 1988.
-
I can't help but feel it's not your computer that's going haywire...
-
YOU ask why the Police did not cordon off the area to assist with the rush,,,,well because nobody knew the pre planned tactics being employed by the fans, who despite your views were in pubs till nearly k o time, I cannot say more. What I will say on your points of Intelligence - Which Police Force have refused to be party to this enquiry and have claimed immunity. Which football club have suffered most? .
The previous year there were only a few bobbies at the rail station to meet the fans, (without it was believed there to be a problem) but they were wrong and there were insufficient Bobbies to deal with that crowd.
This time there were three times as many Bobbies for an expected very large of unruly fans as in previous year, and only a small number got off and many were families. SYP were met with a complaint by them of harassment and over policing. I tell you I cannot and will not pass on information I am aware of. You can search the web "Which ironically you ridiculed me for a while back to back up my argument well you certainly want to go all out on this do you not"
NOw do your research and come back with answers for me will you because I really feel like a headmaster giving homework to two little boys. Who know nothing and are made to search for information. I may be a minority on this now but there are many who think the same as me and Know more than anyone. I suggest that is the CPS.
You may well have got away with your "Cover Up" theory but you do not understand the Laws of Evidence and Opinion is not allowed. UNLESS you are totally qualified to give that opinion.
Anyway as someone has pointed out the second part of the drama is on tonight and I can tell you I will not watch it nor did I watch the first one. Lets see what the Scallies have really got up to.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that every other time an outer corden was employed at Hillsborough prior to this match that it was because the police knew of the 'pre-planned tactics' of the fans, and not because it was standard crowd control procedure??
Oh, and as for as for the number of bobbies there on the day, it is yet again another thing that was irrelevant to how the disaster happened. It was what they were told (or not told) to do, not how many of them did (or didn't do) it.
PS I used to conduct Interviews Under Caution. And you have the barefaced cheek to say I do not understand Laws of Evidence, and am not qualifed to comment?
PPS I still don't know why you directed us to the Public Order Act 1986, nor which Section of it is what you think is relevant to Hillsborough.
My computer keeps going haywire, must be telling me something but oh never mind. Just go away and remember your allegation against me, also you therefore know that there is a n offence of Contempt of Court. You are sailing close to the wind by trying to extract evidence from an on going Criminal Enquiry.
Really?
What have I alleged you of? F*ck all.
Contempt of Court? Billshut. Tell me how I can possibly be in contempt of any court.
Extracting evidence from an ongoing criminal enquiry? Oh do please tell everybody how I can possibly do that.
Baffling with billshut has failed and you're reduced to crap like this.
-
YOU ask why the Police did not cordon off the area to assist with the rush,,,,well because nobody knew the pre planned tactics being employed by the fans, who despite your views were in pubs till nearly k o time, I cannot say more. What I will say on your points of Intelligence - Which Police Force have refused to be party to this enquiry and have claimed immunity. Which football club have suffered most? .
The previous year there were only a few bobbies at the rail station to meet the fans, (without it was believed there to be a problem) but they were wrong and there were insufficient Bobbies to deal with that crowd.
This time there were three times as many Bobbies for an expected very large of unruly fans as in previous year, and only a small number got off and many were families. SYP were met with a complaint by them of harassment and over policing. I tell you I cannot and will not pass on information I am aware of. You can search the web "Which ironically you ridiculed me for a while back to back up my argument well you certainly want to go all out on this do you not"
NOw do your research and come back with answers for me will you because I really feel like a headmaster giving homework to two little boys. Who know nothing and are made to search for information. I may be a minority on this now but there are many who think the same as me and Know more than anyone. I suggest that is the CPS.
You may well have got away with your "Cover Up" theory but you do not understand the Laws of Evidence and Opinion is not allowed. UNLESS you are totally qualified to give that opinion.
Anyway as someone has pointed out the second part of the drama is on tonight and I can tell you I will not watch it nor did I watch the first one. Lets see what the Scallies have really got up to.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that every other time an outer corden was employed at Hillsborough prior to this match that it was because the police knew of the 'pre-planned tactics' of the fans, and not because it was standard crowd control procedure??
Oh, and as for as for the number of bobbies there on the day, it is yet again another thing that was irrelevant to how the disaster happened. It was what they were told (or not told) to do, not how many of them did (or didn't do) it.
PS I used to conduct Interviews Under Caution. And you have the barefaced cheek to say I do not understand Laws of Evidence, and am not qualifed to comment?
PPS I still don't know why you directed us to the Public Order Act 1986, nor which Section of it is what you think is relevant to Hillsborough.
HEY JUST LIKE YOU I DID NOT KNOW YOU TOOK STATEMENTS ETC UNDER CAUTION OH AM I A PROPHET - do I know what every poster does. No and so just because you understand the Caution does make you understand Jack Shit - Most statements under caution either witness or otherwise contain lies, and THAT you do know.. perhaps wish to ignore. But you continue to call me a liar on a public forum and I assure you that I will make arrangements for you to have to be interviewed under caution my dear schoolboy friend.
I've told you before what I used to do. Not my fault if you've forgotten and thought you could play the 'ignorance' card, is it?
Please feel free to waste police time interviewing me under caution if it will make you happy.
-
Your last line errrrr well I do understand that when all hell let loose it was put out that there was a serious public order situation taking place at Hillsboro. Cordons and the need rely on intelligence. OR
Under which Section?
And as I can't find any record of it being called a public order situation by anybody, I'd also like to know when any such determination was made, mainly because of the lengthy delay in summoning ambulances to the ground.
-
There are so many factual inaccuracies, slurs and outright lies in your posts bally1950 that there seems little point to me in continuing this.
Oslo - I see once again you didn't answer my question about the culpability of hooligans in creating the environment in which Hillsborough was possible. Perhaps you missed it.
If it was not for hooligans fences would have not been put up
THe FA gavd Liverpool fans th leppings lane end due to be worried about fans crossing over each other if it was the other way round > in other words hooligans from both clubs could well have got their hands dirty if passing each other FA wanted to take that option away.
as for hooligan plans on the actual day of the game I can not add anything if either set of fans had thoughts of whatever,but back in them days I was allways on the cards I guess.
One thing I will add since it was a cup semi final any fan without a ticket hooligan or not would have been pre occupied all day on how to get into the ground > that is human nature and since lpool were the masters at it any ticketless fans I guess would have had a formula > but like it has pointed out it's hard to come up with a exact number of ticketless fans on the jib .but they would have been there that's for sure .
-
One thing I will add since it was a cup semi final any fan without a ticket hooligan or not would have been pre occupied all day on how to get into the ground > that is human nature and since lpool were the masters at it any ticketless fans I guess would have had a formula > but like it has pointed out it's hard to come up with a exact number of ticketless fans on the jib .but they would have been there that's for sure .
As you seem to think this it would have been common knowledge, do you think the SYP would have been well aware of this and should have set up an outer cordon to stop ticketless fans getting anywhere near the ground?
-
This has got far too personal and completely off topic. Its about a young boy who was innocent and murdered by a scumbag. Sean Mercer has also gone on to stab somebody whilst in prison with some tweezers and has been involved in a number of altercations.
He will never fully pay the price for what he has done,I just hope he meets his match inside.
Must admit, I was tearing up a bit at it last week. His poor parents are so brave.
-
One thing I will add since it was a cup semi final any fan without a ticket hooligan or not would have been pre occupied all day on how to get into the ground > that is human nature and since lpool were the masters at it any ticketless fans I guess would have had a formula > but like it has pointed out it's hard to come up with a exact number of ticketless fans on the jib .but they would have been there that's for sure .
As you seem to think this it would have been common knowledge, do you think the SYP would have been well aware of this and should have set up an outer cordon to stop ticketless fans getting anywhere near the ground?
I don't think any police force at whatever game worried about ticketless fans back then Glynn .
I mean I have never heard of any fan even today been dragged throu the courts for getting caught jibbing into a ground.
I just don't think any records of numbers o fans jibbing in had ever been made as Iam sure it's not a offence.
Back then Iam sure police was far more concerned in crowd controll and the hooligan problem than any fans jibbing in,I doubt the police even spoke about jibbing in issues.
But i guess it would have helped if police did have a controll zone for ticket only fans to pass through
So not a bad idea Glynn.but where there is a will there will be a way found .
-
This has got far too personal and completely off topic. Its about a young boy who was innocent and murdered by a scumbag. Sean Mercer has also gone on to stab somebody whilst in prison with some tweezers and has been involved in a number of altercations.
He will never fully pay the price for what he has done,I just hope he meets his match inside.
Must admit, I was tearing up a bit at it last week. His poor parents are so brave.
You have a valid point there fella ,so for my part Iam sorry and will no longer add to the Hillsboro
part of the thread.
I will watch tonight's episode on Tuesday night and add what I think about it afterwards.
-
Hmmm. Looks like someone's got the hump and taken their ball home with them. Now I'll never get to find out when Hillsborough was declared a public order situation.*
*Unless I go by the inquest testimony of the CCTV officer who thought it was for a while but didn't tell anybody else what he thought. And didn't say that anybody else told him it was a public order situation at any time. ie It was never deemed to have been a public order situation at any time.
-
Having worked for who he did, he won't be used to having his version of events questioned. Things like facts and evidence haven't tended to hold much sway with South Yorkshire's finest over the years.
-
I got the distinct impression he was making up more and more crap and trying to divert away from the issues at hand the more his claims unravelled. The Public Order Act stunt is the classic example - tell someone to go and look at it - with absolutely no explanation why - but didn't expect to be telling it to someone who knows how to read, understand and interpret legislation. When challenged about it, goes into angry mode and tries to shout me down with claims that Hillsborough was declared a public order situation...when it wasn't.
And as for the OTT last couple of rants he had at me that just were just attempts to frighten me with threats...words fail me.
-
(https://media.tenor.co/images/1897e9c3631e754d14c24672b50166e6/tenor.gif)
-
Watched the 2nd part last night and what I found most disturbing is that I got the impression that the parents of the accused were doing their upmost to protect the killer and his class friends from the police with the ' no comment ' stance.
They even tried to put pressure on a neighbour not to speak out .
Then I got thinking what would I do if it was one of mine involved in Something like this ,would I have dragged him down to cop shop to spill the beans and truth?
I can't give a honest answer ,tbh.
-
Hmmm. Looks like someone's got the hump and taken their ball home with them. Now I'll never get to find out when Hillsborough was declared a public order situation.*
*Unless I go by the inquest testimony of the CCTV officer who thought it was for a while but didn't tell anybody else what he thought. And didn't say that anybody else told him it was a public order situation at any time. ie It was never deemed to have been a public order situation at any time.
NO DUMMY.... I am in agreement with a very recent post about this lot and thought I should remove my argumentative comments. You want to see me, tell me where
-
Having worked for who he did, he won't be used to having his version of events questioned. Things like facts and evidence haven't tended to hold much sway with South Yorkshire's finest over the years.
Be very Carefull
-
If both of you wish to continue this, just PM me, nobody else needs to be involved. Leave it with you. Leave the thread to the title. It is easy to badmouth someone who you think just has gone away. I certainly am not scared of you two nor do your comments annoy me. If I am wrong in what I believe then that is my fault but the matter of Hillsboro will be decided by the CPS. Not people on both sides of the fence who can lie unchallenged as it is believed by some if giving statements under caution. And just because you tell someone they are giving a statement under caution and they may be prosecuted if they knowingly put something in it that they know or believe to be false .
Hence the cover up? CPS ? Directed the changes to exclude opinion.
-
The whole point of taking a statement under caution is for the interviewer to use their skills to weed out the lies in a way that the interviewee can't deny. It's called 'closing the doors'. I'm surprised that you don't seem to know about it.
-
Oh I have closed many doors my deal legal, but you can only write down what people want writing and as you or I were not at a particular incident who are you or I to say they are not telling the truth, surely you accept that, also as you should know that Guilty people have walked out of court after being cleared of any wrong doing and Innocent people have been convicted. So a statement made under caution is a piece of crap , Many statements are bare faced lies - as people keep saying about Police Statements. I will not comment on that further because I honestly do not know who was where at what time or when.
Anyway you want to speak send PM, if you continue to make comment about me it will be read but who knows and for your mate Syme, He will argue the toss with anybody and on any subject. Leave him or her to it. If I am wrong then I will apologise. I don't think you or he would be so gracious. But come 7th I will not be posting the season is over. Goodnight
-
Watched the 2nd part last night and what I found most disturbing is that I got the impression that the parents of the accused were doing their upmost to protect the killer and his class friends from the police with the ' no comment ' stance.
They even tried to put pressure on a neighbour not to speak out .
Then I got thinking what would I do if it was one of mine involved in Something like this ,would I have dragged him down to cop shop to spill the beans and truth?
I can't give a honest answer ,tbh.
Everybody wants to protect their children but the fact is a 11 year old boy died innocently, there is no way that could just be swept under the carpet.
-
I can sit here and say that my kids will never go through anything like that because we just don't live in that kind of enviroment.
I found it very very wrong that the parents were doing the upmost to protect their kids from police questions as it came across that they knew or at least had half an idea as to what was what.
from my eyes they are the dreggs of society ,but in the exact same sentence I can't answer honestly what I would do if put in the exact same situation fella.
I hope the next part brings in how all the neighbours reacted once it was comming out about the shooting .
-
Final episode tonight, 9pm ITV1.
-
The earlier episodes were excellent, and in my opinion are a true reflection of many deprived and crime ridden areas
-
Iam on the Chelsea v boro game at moment ,but will catch this final episode on play back after the togger
-
There are 4 episodes according to ITV. The last one will be next Monday.
http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep4week20/little-boy-blue (http://www.itv.com/presscentre/ep4week20/little-boy-blue)
-
Fcuk it Chelsea v watford next Monday
-
Just watched the 3rd episode and that ended with a 'deal or no deal'
Iam going backkkkk to werkkkkkkkk whackkk.
It's quite gripping stuff and has you on the edge all the time.
It kept replaying CCTV footage of Rhys when he got shot dead in that pub car park ,it must be shocking for the parents of Rhys or family to watch this .i can't get my head round they gave permission for this to be filmed and are far stronger than I will ever be.
-
Wittness intimidation, it's rife, it happens when a suspect is locked up, his cronies will usually sort it for him. Loved the bit where the wannabe gangster realises he's in a misters prison and will be a dead man walking, his arse really fell out then
-
That's where it ended with the lad bubbling away in front of the prison staff and wanting to make a deal that would protect his mum&dad.
I slagged off his parents after watching episode two ,but would not like to be put in their position .
Did the oarents get jail time as the rozzer says he wants
-
Dont know what made me think last night was the final episode,apologies it is indeed next week.
Anyway another great showing and it really does highlight the gang cultute of today and everything thats wrong on the streets. I work in a environment with the likes of Mercer day in day out,and they are no different. They all bounce off each other,love causing trouble and smashing things up. They should be locked up in solitary confinement with a bed and tin toilet nothing else...
-
Dont know what made me think last night was the final episode,apologies it is indeed next week.
Anyway another great showing and it really does highlight the gang cultute of today and everything thats wrong on the streets. I work in a environment with the likes of Mercer day in day out,and they are no different. They all bounce off each other,love causing trouble and smashing things up. They should be locked up in solitary confinement with a bed and tin toilet nothing else...
Whats wrong on the streets is these low lifes keep commiting crimes, go through the courts get a token punishment (small fine, community service etc.) sometimes a short sentence, short enough to cover their time on remand, and then they're back out on the streets again doing exactly the same as before, until some one innocent gets killed. Mercer was a known criminal to the police with a conviction list as long as your arm, if he was dealt with properly previous to that shooting he would n't have been in a position to kill that kid
-
The fact that no fcuker respects the police anymore don't help matters at all.
Type of brushed onto this problem in a different thread when I pointed out that in today's fcuked up society it's acceptable for general public to film the police on their phones while they carry out their dutys.
Which in turn leaves the police officer 2nd guessing himself while the prick on the Mobil phone is shouting ' Iam filming you this will be on you tube'
So what if a police officer gives you a slap round the Corner or is over heavy handed with you over a arrest or carrying out his duty > so beit .
It's all your faults for society going far to PC and human rights b*llocks.
Let the police rule with a stronger fist.
-
Last one tonight shipmates at 21:00 bells.
sure I saw on itv 1 that there is a what happened next follow up on Wednesday .
-
So sad... and as for the lads smirking,giggling and throwing things around in the court room.. well they should have had a good hiding.
Sean Mercer was at Moorlands prison for a short while and he slashed a few people in there and has had his sentence extended i do know, he will end up doing about 30 years before hes out.. still not long enough. And he wont change,he will come out thinking hes even more invincible. I hope somebody properly does him in... complete waste of oxygen.
As for the programme, it was brilliantly acted out and as said already,Rhys Jones parents were so brave to release this.
-
Was that a very clever tact used by the judge to pass on that warning/addvice about the mother of Rhys to keep her emotions in check or don't come in for the next days proceedings > while in turn not saying anything to all the accused who were acting like monkeys by fcuking about all the time.
It just shows where society is today when somebody is up in court and they show no respect or fear towrads the courts and the system.
Put that down to the sloppy PC brigrade I guess as you have brought this onto yourself.
-
Regardless of what I had been warned by the judge, when one of the lads said "all this for a little boy" i would have been through the glass with my hands round his throat..
There is a bit of a follow up programme on Wednesday night around 10ish called "rhys jones-what happened next" Sure it was on ITV1 again.
I will definetly be recording and watching at some stage this week.
-
I will be watching that follow up programme for sure.
But going down a different. Road here ,but when you see young teenagers in court with no respect for the courts that is sitting right in front of them ,no matter what offence they are up for > it tells you society has lost.
-
I will be watching that follow up programme for sure.
But going down a different. Road here ,but when you see young teenagers in court with no respect for the courts that is sitting right in front of them ,no matter what offence they are up for > it tells you society has lost.
The clever little bas**rds should be used for cannon fodder against isis
-
I was last up in court some 22 years ago on a affray charge which can carry 7 years slopping out.
Ok it's not the same type of charge as the little boy blue case ,but there was 7 of us all from donny all up on the same charge.
Non of us fcuked about in the courts ,stood up and sat down when told to and we showed total respect whilst inside the court room .