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Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 06:16:45 pm

Title: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 06:16:45 pm
I guess that just about 90% on here have never fired a really gun and what comes with it etc etc.

It took armed police 8 mins to get to and take out the three terrorists fire gunfire over the weekend .

In the USA and France and other country's all the police are armed,but this inturn brings out different questions especially in the USA,as they seem to be trigger happy or maybe it's their society's fault?

Would you be happy if all U.K. Police were armed or have the governments of today  and past got the armed police policy right?

You will see armed police walking on the streets of major city's across the U.K. and at airports ,but when was last time you saw armed police walking up and down Doncaster high street or cleggy sea front,Bristol ,Leeds ,Bournemouth to name a few.

at the moment Iam happy how the U.K. Police are as they are today ,but I doubt it will take much for me to think different .



Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: GazLaz on June 05, 2017, 06:41:11 pm
The police officers themselves don't want it.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Draytonian III on June 05, 2017, 06:50:24 pm
The police officers themselves might not want it but most of the public would feel safer if they were
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 06:52:18 pm
The police officers themselves don't want it.

Very good point that gaz lad ,that certainly puts a point in the NO bank.

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: wilts rover on June 05, 2017, 06:56:43 pm
Armed police at football matches - there's a thought. They have them in Italy, dozens of them with machine guns.

I would be interested in Bally's response to this as he has the most direct experience and knowledge of anyone on this site.

Personally I believe we should give the police the tools and resources they require to do the job(s) they  need to do. I did hear the Met Commissioner on the radio this morning saying she didn't think all police should be armed but was happy with a pool of highly trained officers working in mobile units.

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Bentley Bullet on June 05, 2017, 06:57:24 pm
The police officers themselves don't want it.

Very good point that gaz lad ,that certainly puts a point in the NO bank.



I bet the majority of criminals don't want it either, so that certainly puts a point in the YES bank.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 06:58:18 pm
The police officers themselves might not want it but most of the public would feel safer if they were

I suppose that across the big pond thd general public have the right to carry a fire arm ,hence why in turn their police don't second guess and fire straight away when that line is crossed.

The general public do not have right to carry arms in U.K. and them that do are all wrong'erns so i guess the U.K. Police would be far more controlled on use of fire arm > or is my head up in the clouds.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 07:01:55 pm
Armed police at football matches - there's a thought. They have them in Italy, dozens of them with machine guns.

I would be interested in Bally's response to this as he has the most direct experience and knowledge of anyone on this site.

Personally I believe we should give the police the tools and resources they require to do the job(s) they  need to do. I did hear the Met Commissioner on the radio this morning saying she didn't think all police should be armed but was happy with a pool of highly trained officers working in mobile units.

I had bally1950 in mind when i put this thread up ,also anyone that has served in the armed forces.

Iam going to second guess Bally as he is old school and I think he would like to see  far more police in the community before a armed U.K. Police force.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: RedJ on June 05, 2017, 07:06:35 pm
The number of cases that actually require an armed response doesn't really call for it, I wouldn't have thought.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Filo on June 05, 2017, 07:07:13 pm
In my opinion a side arm should be standard issue to all Police officers, we must be the only Country in the world that arms our Police with a stick. A British Transport Policeman attempted to tackle the three scumbags the other night with just his batton, he's in a serious condition in hospital. If he had a side arm, those three would have been taken out earlier than the 8 minutes and probably would have saved more lives
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 07:11:08 pm
Filo point about the un armed police officer taking on the three terrorists with only his baton and getting stabbed in the face and fact that he could have taken out the 3 terrorists with a bang bang bang and another bang just incase .also cutting that 8 mins reaction time down which means less carnage is a point for a fully armed police force

YES 1 NO 1
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Donnywolf on June 05, 2017, 07:22:36 pm
In my opinion a side arm should be standard issue to all Police officers, we must be the only Country in the world that arms our Police with a stick. A British Transport Policeman attempted to tackle the three scumbags the other night with just his batton, he's in a serious condition in hospital. If he had a side arm, those three would have been taken out earlier than the 8 minutes and probably would have saved more lives

In my early years every village had a Cop. In Fishlake it was Sharpie known to we Stainyites (originally) as Sharpie the Fishlake Cop. Whatever time you tried to enter he was there and used to scare me to death

However times change. Nobody is scared of authority these days. The world is a totally different place and so I agree with what Filo says.

Go to Holland Belgium Spain etc etc and all the Police on the Street have side arms. It makes me for one feel that bit safer and the only time I have been "scared" was way back in the 70's when a Spanish Cop (who had had a few) was waving his Pistol about in a Bar trying to impress the Lady by his side

Other than that no problems for me - arm them and do it soon.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 07:41:43 pm
The police officers themselves don't want it.

Very good point that gaz lad ,that certainly puts a point in the NO bank.




I bet the majority of criminals don't want it either, so that certainly puts a point in the YES bank.

This is where this thread gets messy as I will bring two events that had issues for the police after they fired and killed.

1st issue was the reaction to the black lad that was shot dead in Tottenham,that inturn lead to rioting
over London not long before the olympics were held.
The chao that was gunned down was later found out by general public to have been a know drug dealer and had been known to Carry a fire arm .i have no sympathy for the shot lads family on this issue ,but it caused untold crimes across London during the riots.

The 2nd was when a chap from Brazil who innocent on all accounts apart from not having a work visa and got caught up as armed officers were watching a known terrorists house after the terror acts in London tube getting bombed.

Gent comes out of watched house with a back pack on > which is not a crime ,but because he came out of the hot house it raised flags > he was followed and shouted to stop as he approached near by tube station. > then he made a run for said tube station with back pack on > what do the secret armed police do ?

Now they are trained day in day out on all sorts , as a normall armed police man on the street will get a more diluted training guide I guess .

With a fully armed police force in the U.K. sooner or later a mistake will happen.

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: drfchound on June 05, 2017, 08:01:29 pm
Someone close to me is a Police Officer and has been firearms trained.
He told me that the rank and file policeman is not in favour of being armed.
He also said that his local area armed officers are called out every day but very rarely are required to actually take a shot.
Events like Saturday are also extremely rare and do not warrant every officer to carry a gun.
As NOF says, in the USA thousands of people carry firearms so the justification for the police to do the same is there.
Unless Glyn jumps on my post and says not.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Muttley on June 05, 2017, 08:27:42 pm


You will see armed police walking on the streets of major city's across the U.K. and at airports ,but when was last time you saw armed police walking up and down Doncaster high street or cleggy sea front,Bristol ,Leeds ,Bournemouth to name a few.



There was a couple of armed coppers on platform 3 at Donny train station last Saturday, and they've previously appeared in the Frenchgate etc  after terrorist incidents.

Seems to me just be a show of strength by the government  to give the public the appearance that they are doing "something".

I don't believe for a minute that dotting a couple of thousand armed coppers at strategic points around the country has any deterrent affect on a terrorist who is willing to blow himself up for his cause - they would just select another target away from the armed copper.

The war on terror is going to be won through intelligence and education, not by putting armed police on the streets.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: drfchound on June 05, 2017, 08:31:51 pm
Totally agree Muttley.
It is impossible to patrol every possible target area, let alone have armed officers there.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Bentley Bullet on June 05, 2017, 08:45:22 pm
It's probably more beneficial taking known potential terrorists off the streets than putting more armed police on them.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: the vicar on June 05, 2017, 08:46:58 pm
If they don't they won't be able to carry there guns or make arrests 🤔
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: the vicar on June 05, 2017, 08:49:08 pm
There not enough Copps to make a difference weather they do or they don't
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: drfchound on June 05, 2017, 08:57:04 pm
It's probably more beneficial taking known potential terrorists off the streets than putting more armed police on them.




Ah but the do gooders would say that you can't arrest someone until they have committed a crime.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Draytonian III on June 05, 2017, 08:59:17 pm
We should spend more money on policing our country than we do ,making it safer place to live , not wasting millions on finding out what's in Outer space. I'm definitely in favour of the police carrying guns ,they do in Northern Ireland and nobody bats an eyelid
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: ballysbackin on June 05, 2017, 08:59:25 pm
Yes you can There is always "The Criminal Attempts Act" gives you a bit more leverage
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: BobG on June 05, 2017, 09:16:01 pm
No.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 09:18:42 pm
After reading last few points since mr mutleys input all points are valid but I like to point out if all police officers were armed in the U.K. ,the first policeman on the recent london attacks would have take out the 3 terrorists straight away .

Where he only had a wooden stick to fend them off,they then went into a pub and restaurant to inflict more carnage.

As pointed out the powers that be will never be able to prevent terrorists from the streets of U.K. Causing havoc no matter how good the intelligence is.

What can be done is cut short the amount of time a knife welding terrorist can run amok by minutes which I guess will save deaths and serious  injurys.

Still 1-1 at moment unless a rabbit can pulled out of the hat.

Suppose question is how bad will have to get with terrorist acts on U.K. Streets while our police are not fully armed before we all start edging towrads a fully armed police force?

Iam looking many years infront with this one. but one day whenever I like to think that isis will run dry on recruits and will basically fall away.

But the most worrying part of above is that the next terrorist group to appear will have to be far more extreme than isis to shock us.

We all learned to live with whatever the ira threw at us and just got on with it.

Next up was isis and the first time I read about a head been hacked off I was mortified ,but for some really bad reasons I don't like to put my hands up > when I read about a terrorist beheading today I type of move on and don't read it as Iam no longer shocked.

Hence the question what will the next terrorist have to do to  really shock me .





Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: MachoMadness on June 05, 2017, 09:51:53 pm
There not enough Copps to make a difference weather they do or they don't
I agree, Copps is a legend but he is only one man, plus his legs are going apparently.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 05, 2017, 10:08:54 pm
It's probably more beneficial taking known potential terrorists off the streets than putting more armed police on them.

Ah but the do gooders would say that you can't arrest someone until they have committed a crime.

Apart from what bally1950 has said, there's also Conspiracy.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Bentley Bullet on June 05, 2017, 10:20:52 pm
Let's hope now that finally, FINALLY, we're no longer going to pander to the Namby Pamby, Shandy drinking, powder puff, Jessie, f**king do-gooders who show more concern for the evil bas**rd perpetrators than their victims.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 05, 2017, 10:23:10 pm
Let's hope now that finally, FINALLY, we're no longer going to pander to the Namby Pamby, Shandy drinking, powder puff, Jessie, f**king do-gooders who show more concern for the evil bas**rd perpetrators than their victims.

Who are these people?
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 10:38:30 pm
Let's hope now that finally, FINALLY, we're no longer going to pander to the Namby Pamby, Shandy drinking, powder puff, Jessie, f**king do-gooders who show more concern for the evil bas**rd perpetrators than their victims.

Who are these people?

I will point you into a direction for that answer Glynn but the description in BBs
in BBs post don't fit the ones that lived local to the chap that got shot dead by police in Tottenham ,that in turn caused riots across the city.

Then you had numbers of different types of raged people out with their arms up in the air ( these arms had fingers on the end) after the Brazilian chap was shot and killed while running into the tube station.

He was only guilty of running away from police when ordered to STOP ,but how could the police 2nd guess that his ruck sack was not a bomb.

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Bentley Bullet on June 05, 2017, 10:41:56 pm
The people who allow known potential terrorists, such as the London Bridge, Manchester Arena, and the Westminster Bridge terrorists the freedom to terrorise the streets of England.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Muttley on June 05, 2017, 10:49:38 pm
The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: wilts rover on June 05, 2017, 10:51:32 pm
After the 7/7 attacks the Labour Government introduced Control Orders for suspected terrorist subjects, which included measures such as house arrest, forced relocation, control over who they meet and speak to, phone internet etc.
https://www.liberty-human-rights.org.uk/sites/default/files/prevention-of-terrorism-act-2005-summary.pdf

In 2011 these control orders were scrapped when the Coalition Home Office minister brought in Terrorist Prevention and Investigation Measures (TPims) which reduced these conditions to reporting to a police station and wearing an electronic tag.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24803069

Who was this namby pamby, soft, lefty, Home Office Minister who reduced the control over suspected terrorists you May ask?

The figures we are getting at the moment is that there are 23000 suspects of whom 3000 are closely watched. Of this number, in 2016, how many of the most dangerous terrorist suspects do you  think were subjected to these 'close watch' TPims


SIX
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/26/six-people-are-subject-to-tpims-home-office-reveals
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/26/six-terror-suspects-now-on-tpims-as-threat-of-attack-remains-hig/

Remind me who that namby pamby Home Office Minister was again?
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Bentley Bullet on June 05, 2017, 11:02:09 pm
Don't try to get me involved in political bias because I'm not interested. I don't believe any of them. I suspect that you loathe Theresa and trust Jeremy to stop the terrorism in our country and that's your prerogative.

I don't.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Draytonian III on June 05, 2017, 11:10:40 pm
Jean Charles de Mendez was killed on the 22nd of July 2005 ,nearly 12 years ago,I dare say that training has moved on a tad since then.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 05, 2017, 11:23:27 pm
The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!

The incident Iam on about was not long after the London tube train and London bus got blown up in a terror act.

Police were then watching a house that had suspected terrorists tied to it.

Said Brazilian chao was seen comming out of the hot house with a ruck sack on his back,police followed him and shouted him to stop as he approached a near by tube station.

Chap from Brazil breaks off into a runner and heads into the tube station with a ruck sack on his back and police shouting STOP .what choice did the police have but to shot.

Turns out the Brazil chap was in the U.K. Without correct paper work and working as a electrician I think and he thought he was getting chased by boarder police.

He should have stopped and he still be alive as you can't blame the police on this one .

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Bentley Bullet on June 05, 2017, 11:26:18 pm
There's really not much hope is there, if one person becomes famous, and his name is remembered forever, because it is of such rarity for someone innocent to be killed by anti-terrorist police, if it means that all forms of resistance should cease because of it?
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Muttley on June 05, 2017, 11:49:58 pm
Thats the fella John, but instead of relying on your memory of what you thought you know about the events, have a read of an account of the case.

No running, no orders to stop. Just an innocent man being shot.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/seven-mistakes-that-cost-de-menezes-his-life-1064466.html
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: bpoolrover on June 06, 2017, 12:17:39 am
Bit off topic but Diane abbot said labour would put 10k community bobbies on the beat, is that 10k police in the community or 10k community support police
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 12:28:07 am
Thats the fella John, but instead of relying on your memory of what you thought you know about the events, have a read of an account of the case.

No running, no orders to stop. Just an innocent man being shot.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/seven-mistakes-that-cost-de-menezes-his-life-1064466.html


Also, De Menezes was in this country legally at the time of his death.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: ballysbackin on June 06, 2017, 09:42:10 am
It's probably more beneficial taking known potential terrorists off the streets than putting more armed police on them.

Ah but the do gooders would say that you can't arrest someone until they have committed a crime.

Apart from what bally1950 has said, there's also Conspiracy.


Glyn

You are right but I did not want to go down that route, in the fear that someone may have wanted to expand the issue against me. hahahah
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 10:18:24 am
The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!

The incident Iam on about was not long after the London tube train and London bus got blown up in a terror act.

Police were then watching a house that had suspected terrorists tied to it.

Said Brazilian chao was seen comming out of the hot house with a ruck sack on his back,police followed him and shouted him to stop as he approached a near by tube station.

Chap from Brazil breaks off into a runner and heads into the tube station with a ruck sack on his back and police shouting STOP .what choice did the police have but to shot.

Turns out the Brazil chap was in the U.K. Without correct paper work and working as a electrician I think and he thought he was getting chased by boarder police.

He should have stopped and he still be alive as you can't blame the police on this one .



He wasn't told to stop, he never ran (because he didn't know the police were there), and he was sat in a tube train when police came and shot him in the head with no warning. I'm not telling you who you think you should blame for that, but at least start with the true story.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 11:18:11 am
Well either Iam making things up or I must have read what I put up in my sleep ,but Iam 100% I read it via a online U.K. Newspaper after he got shot.

Iam not going to trawl back ,but now Iam second guessing what I read .i seem to recall his parents in Brazil were going to sue the police .
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 11:25:43 am
Well either Iam making things up or I must have read what I put up in my sleep ,but Iam 100% I read it via a online U.K. Newspaper after he got shot.

Iam not going to trawl back ,but now Iam second guessing what I read .i seem to recall his parents in Brazil were going to sue the police .

Newspaper printed lots of stuff after Hillsborough that people still believe too...
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: drfchound on June 06, 2017, 11:34:05 am
We should spend more money on policing our country than we do ,making it safer place to live , not wasting millions on finding out what's in Outer space. I'm definitely in favour of the police carrying guns ,they do in Northern Ireland and nobody bats an eyelid




The HS2 project could be dumped as well and that money given to Policing and the NHS.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: drfchound on June 06, 2017, 11:47:30 am
Newspapers are wrong if you disagree with what you read or they are correct if you choose to believe what you have read.

It depends on your point of view i guess or whether you can produce enough links to other things.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 12:18:46 pm
You have a point there Glynn  but I be fcuked if Iam going to take time to research everything I read in the papers after whatever incident.

I can't quite figure out how I have not picked up on both yours and mr. Mutleys accounts  hence I feal a tad twwatish
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 12:40:26 pm
You have a point there Glynn  but I be fcuked if Iam going to take time to research everything I read in the papers after whatever incident.

I can't quite figure out how I have not picked up on both yours and mr. Mutleys accounts  hence I feal a tad twwatish

You just have to google De Menezes death/inquest. I'm sure that the evidence given to the inquest trumps anything in a newspaper!
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 12:58:23 pm
Like I said fella ,I read whatever I read in the papers which were printed a day after he got shot etc etc .

I guess his inquest was much much more down the line and I totally missed anything on the results of his inquest .

When mr mutley and you put up your accounts ,I honestly thought that we must have been talking about two  different incidents and then I was asking WTF are you two trolloping on about.

Fcuking newspapers ,getting to the point that I will not belive the full time match reports now.

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 01:05:08 pm
Like I said fella ,I read whatever I read in the papers which were printed a day after he got shot etc etc .

I guess his inquest was much much more down the line and I totally missed anything on the results of his inquest .

When mr mutley and you put up your accounts ,I honestly thought that we must have been talking about two  different incidents and then I was asking WTF are you two trolloping on about.

Fcuking newspapers ,getting to the point that I will not belive the full time match reports now.



To be honest, it wouldn't surprise me if the papers just printed what they were fed by the police in the same way some of them did in the wake of Hillsborough.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 01:09:33 pm
So I did read that he got chased into a tube station while carrying a ruck sack and basically shot from what my memory can pick out.

Thought I was going as mad as the cows that had it yonks back
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 01:29:29 pm
So I did read that he got chased into a tube station while carrying a ruck sack and basically shot from what my memory can pick out.

Thought I was going as mad as the cows that had it yonks back

I can remember when it happened, the story about him running and ignoring commands to stop was doing the rounds then so it hasn't come from nowhere. I don't know where it started from though, but now the truth is out there the falsehoods have to be challenged whenever they reappear. I've no doubt you honestly believed that story, but we all deserve to be told the truth when it emerges.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 01:50:17 pm
Only today do I feal sorry for the chap after mr mutley and Glynn put us right .

It's been set in my mind that it was his own fault for not stopping when asked and now i have had a about turn on that aspect.

The point that you make out about what the papers reported and was that info given to them by the police > this is leading me onto another thread which I guess will or might upset some but the main issue is state controll via the police.



Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 01:54:28 pm
Only today do I feal sorry for the chap after mr mutley and Glynn put us right .

It's been set in my mind that it was his own fault for not stopping when asked and now i have had a about turn on that aspect.

The point that you make out about what the papers reported and was that info given to them by the police > this is leading me onto another thread which I guess will or might upset some but the main issue is state controll via the police.





I don't think it's state control, but I'm worried about the Police using misinformation as media management when they know damn well it's not the truth.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: ballysbackin on June 06, 2017, 04:51:31 pm
If the Europeans had kept their borders tight you would not be having this conversation. IS stated a few years ago that they would fill Europe with 50,000 fighters. Well I am not stating there are that many in Europe but then the boats started coming thick and fast and how many IS young men were on these boats, all travelling alone, all had mobile phones and hiding from cameras, then you have the French trying to push them over here.

On the many who have managed to get here, how many have gone AWOL, how many SEX crimes has there been as there has been a dramatic rise over the last five years, how many crash for cash incidents, you all see them...Three foreigners in a car the back one generally no belt on, inviting a collision on some cases, and yes it happened to me (an elderly silver haired man) on a roundabout at The Berkely in Scunny but they got succored. I was too clever.

Racist NO but a Realist that I am. The need for guns for all Police, well I am not getting into that discussion, my thoughts on the subject are my business. It is too late now, there have been mistakes by many in power in many European Countries.  No point slagging each other off  and arguing you. me or us have no choice in the matter, Leave it to the Politicians. 
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 06:12:47 pm
Bally that thing you pointed out about fools in cars looking for payouts after forcing a car crash .

I saw a documentary on if from the north west of Manchester area.

It seemed that the big gangs had doctors and garage repair services on the pay roll .

There main target was lone female drivers or female drivers with kids in the back or as you mentioned the older generation ,which in turn helped their claims.

Iam told that it's really bad now across the U.K. and only getting worse.

If I was back in U.K. i would have a dash cam set on front and back of me car to protect myself.

This type of thing was a massive problem in Russia years and years ago ,but it was people jumping out in front of cars looking for a good tickle or gangs of local attacking cars at red lights.

Untold Russians now have dash cams ,hence why there is a massive rise of awfull Russian driving out on you tube .

Whatever happens in the U.K. Will hit likes of norway mire years down the line ,that's why r girt has dash cam on her pap pap .
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: idler on June 06, 2017, 06:25:27 pm
The wife reversed about 9" into a taxi.
I got my bumper fixed for £250 cash.
The taxi driver claimed soft tissue damage among other things.
He got nearly £6k. I was foaming when the insurance company told me.
Absolutely ridiculous.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: mrfrostsdad on June 06, 2017, 08:28:21 pm
Having been a cop for 27 years and now Serious Crime as a civvy, the first comment on this thread sure it up: police officers themselves don't want to be armed. They are happy with tazers but not guns.
One of the main reasons the number of firearms officers has reduced is because forces cannot persuade their cops to become firearms officers.
There are many and varied reason for that, one of the main ones is being hung out to dry if they make a mistake. For anyone who doesn't know, the IPCC is staffed by anti police people who like nothing better than to try and get a cop on a murder/manslaughter charge as a result of a split second decision.
I can think of many examples, the 'table leg' shooting being just one (research it)

Having been a Tactical Firearms Commander and Post Incident Manager in a previous lifetime, if I were a cop I wouldn't go near a H and K

(ps. I'm sure other ex cops on here may think differently)
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: mrfrostsdad on June 06, 2017, 08:31:19 pm
The only thing that Jean Charles de Menezes was guilty of was "looking a bit foreign".

He was never ordered to stop, he never ran away. He was murdered by incompetent armed police officers and their equally incompetent superiors.

How will the police be able to second guess what's in my, yours or anyone else's rucksack? Probably a good job that we don't look a bit foreign!

Completely untrue.
the principal officer and his 'spotter's' actions were exemplary. The intelligence and supervision wasn't
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 08:43:29 pm
I never thought that the IPCC was so anti police mrfrostsdad

I find that shocking and now 200% understand why any police officer would want to stay way clear of been armed.

I have to ask the question in my way only but is the IPCC full of left wing fcukers as that would answer my questions.

I feal sick now
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: ballysbackin on June 06, 2017, 08:47:57 pm
Bally that thing you pointed out about fools in cars looking for payouts after forcing a car crash .

I saw a documentary on if from the north west of Manchester area.

It seemed that the big gangs had doctors and garage repair services on the pay roll .

There main target was lone female drivers or female drivers with kids in the back or as you mentioned the older generation ,which in turn helped their claims.

Iam told that it's really bad now across the U.K. and only getting worse.


Yes when there is money to be made these boys are very wise, the two that tried it with me in Scunny could not have picked on anyone so cute as me, they blasted the horn and shuddered to a halt infront of me. Bally here expected this and stopped stationary behind them about 10 foot in total, with all other drivers just watching, then they set off and I followed at a safe speed and distance and sure as eggs at the next roundabout they braked sharply but I was ahead of the game and again stopped a good distance with plenty of observers, any collision would have meant them reversing, not so cute Bunnies . Keep your speed down and a safe distance works every time. They then turned off to the right, I smiled and waved.

If I was back in U.K. i would have a dash cam set on front and back of me car to protect myself.

This type of thing was a massive problem in Russia years and years ago ,but it was people jumping out in front of cars looking for a good tickle or gangs of local attacking cars at red lights.

Untold Russians now have dash cams ,hence why there is a massive rise of awfull Russian driving out on you tube .

Whatever happens in the U.K. Will hit likes of norway mire years down the line ,that's why r girt has dash cam on her pap pap .
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 06, 2017, 08:49:59 pm
I never thought that the IPCC was so anti police mrfrostsdad

I find that shocking and now 200% understand why any police officer would want to stay way clear of been armed.

I have to ask the question in my way only but is the IPCC full of left wing fcukers as that would answer my questions.

I feal sick now

Quote
The IPCC's seven operational Commissioners and three non-operational Commissioners are appointed by the Home Secretary for a five or three-year period. The Chair is appointed by the Crown on the recommendation of the Home Secretary. Commissioners by law may not have served with the police at any time, been the Chair or a member of SOCA at any time or been a Commissioner or officer of Customs at any time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Police_Complaints_Commission#Commissioners

Which means that all the Commissioners were appointed by either Cameron or May. I don't know who the current Commissioners are but have those two really appointed a load of lefties?
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: ballysbackin on June 06, 2017, 08:53:09 pm
The wife reversed about 9" into a taxi.
I got my bumper fixed for £250 cash.
The taxi driver claimed soft tissue damage among other things.
He got nearly £6k. I was foaming when the insurance company told me.
Absolutely ridiculous.


Taxi driver hit my car in Balby whilst I was in school for daughter, cute bast*** drove off but his number was taken and given to me, low and behold driving towards Donny nick I pulled up beside offending vehicle and gave him what for etc etc etc.  Cost him his job and his insurance a front wing repair my hire car for a week and costs, then they tried to argue the cost of the hire and questioned why I had to have car, I played them at their own game, Here I am a frail man with a heart condition in his mid 60's who has problems walking. Cost them a mint in the end. (Should never try it on with a retired Bobby who knows how to write accident statements up). Oh Happy Days  :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 08:53:16 pm
Bally that thing you pointed out about fools in cars looking for payouts after forcing a car crash .

I saw a documentary on if from the north west of Manchester area.

It seemed that the big gangs had doctors and garage repair services on the pay roll .

There main target was lone female drivers or female drivers with kids in the back or as you mentioned the older generation ,which in turn helped their claims.

Iam told that it's really bad now across the U.K. and only getting worse.


Yes when there is money to be made these boys are very wise, the two that tried it with me in Scunny could not have picked on anyone so cute as me, they blasted the horn and shuddered to a halt infront of me. Bally here expected this and stopped stationary behind them about 10 foot in total, with all other drivers just watching, then they set off and I followed at a safe speed and distance and sure as eggs at the next roundabout they braked sharply but I was ahead of the game and again stopped a good distance with plenty of observers, any collision would have meant them reversing, not so cute Bunnies . Keep your speed down and a safe distance works every time. They then turned off to the right, I smiled and waved.

If I was back in U.K. i would have a dash cam set on front and back of me car to protect myself.

This type of thing was a massive problem in Russia years and years ago ,but it was people jumping out in front of cars looking for a good tickle or gangs of local attacking cars at red lights.

Untold Russians now have dash cams ,hence why there is a massive rise of awfull Russian driving out on you tube .

Whatever happens in the U.K. Will hit likes of norway mire years down the line ,that's why r girt has dash cam on her pap pap .

I know your a former police officer so that will hold you back I guess ,but if that act had been done infront of me that blatant I would have put the fear of god into them via whatever sly means.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: ballysbackin on June 06, 2017, 08:59:47 pm
I did say I waved and smiled. I did not say what I waved or how many fingers, ah the joys of  being a Police Driver for 25 years, you have to have eyes up your arras. It appears we have a few retired Officers of the law on this forum and each will have received very strict training and, I would suggest that what you are reading (like myself) stories can be told -!!!!!!! It is a sixth sense you get used to having
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 09:01:10 pm
The wife reversed about 9" into a taxi.
I got my bumper fixed for £250 cash.
The taxi driver claimed soft tissue damage among other things.
He got nearly £6k. I was foaming when the insurance company told me.
Absolutely ridiculous.


Taxi driver hit my car in Balby whilst I was in school for daughter, cute bast*** drove off but his number was taken and given to me, low and behold driving towards Donny nick I pulled up beside offending vehicle and gave him what for etc etc etc.  Cost him his job and his insurance a front wing repair my hire car for a week and costs, then they tried to argue the cost of the hire and questioned why I had to have car, I played them at their own game, Here I am a frail man with a heart condition in his mid 60's who has problems walking. Cost them a mint in the end. (Should never try it on with a retired Bobby who knows how to write accident statements up). Oh Happy Days  :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

When you approached that taxi driver Bally did you approach near enough the same way as if you was still in uniform ?

I don't mean by saying ' can you please blow into this bag sir'

I mean your mind set and body stance etc etc > if so alarm bells would have been banging in my head
straight away that you was a rozzer ,and I would act accordingly > in other words not like a James hunt .

You can kid a kidder but rarely will you pull wool over a bobbys or former policemans eyes ,in or out of uniform.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: RedJ on June 06, 2017, 10:50:18 pm
I never thought that the IPCC was so anti police mrfrostsdad

I find that shocking and now 200% understand why any police officer would want to stay way clear of been armed.

I have to ask the question in my way only but is the IPCC full of left wing fcukers as that would answer my questions.

I feal sick now

Go on, I'll bite. What exactly draws you to the conclusion that they're left wing? f**k me man not everything in life is defined by your politics.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Filo on June 06, 2017, 10:52:06 pm
An attack in Paris today by a lone wolf, resulted in him being shot in the chest by a French policeman, no civilian casualties. How many casualties would there have been had the cop not been armed?
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 06, 2017, 11:17:15 pm
Just looking at this on the noggy news now ,certianly food for thought.

One thing I can't quite get head round that it has come out today that these 3 extreme Muslims were all known to the U.K. Security forces.

They had a warning from Italy about one ,neighbours warned police about one a couple of years ago .they was on a channel 4 documentary with them holding a isis flag >

Now the pm is saying that she plans to fcuk off any human rights laws or EU  guide lines in hope to get a stronger grip or controll over jihdis etc etc > that's what likes of tommy Robbinson has been saying since 2011 but maybe be in a more brutal way only to be deemed wrong'ern by British society .

Trump has slagged the London mayor off ,and all and sundry are backing the mayor and digging out trump because there is the worlds media on them .

Trump said parts of London were dangerous > he got slapped down > turns out he gets a tick.

Trump said Sweden will have problems > he got slapped down > another tick for trump .

Trump slaggs off mayor of London > we will wait and see

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: wilts rover on June 07, 2017, 12:13:10 am
Trump needs to sort out America before telling the rest of the world what to do.

In 2016 135 police officers were killed on duty, 64 of whom were shot. This is actually below the 10 years average of 151 police officers being killed on duty. 122 officers have been killed or wounded this year.

At the same time the police shot and killed at least 1058 people. In a number of cases the victims were unarmed.

411 people have been shot and killed by the police so far this year.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/29/police-killed-2016-average
http://time.com/4619689/police-officers-killed-2016/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/

Which may seem high until you realise that 13 286 people were killed and 26 819 injured by firearms in 2015.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34996604

So far this year there have been 26 533 gun violence incidents in the US - with 6531 people being killed. 906 of those were shot by a police officer.

http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 07, 2017, 09:50:00 am
Been a lot of things in the press media and on here about the 20,000 police officers that had their jobs cut on mays watch.

wrong or right the question is do we all honestly think that if we still had them 20,000 officers were still on our streets that recent attacks in Manchester and London would not have taken place.

Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 07, 2017, 10:48:06 am
Been a lot of things in the press media and on here about the 20,000 police officers that had their jobs cut on mays watch.

wrong or right the question is do we all honestly think that if we still had them 20,000 officers were still on our streets that recent attacks in Manchester and London would not have taken place.



You will never iradicate incidents like these, there is no such thing as a 100% guarantee.7

Once you understand that, you realise that what you have to do is reduce the possibility of them happening.

Both myself and bally1950 have said that what is needed is the re-establishment of Community Policemen, having their own patch and getting to know it and being able to sniff the wind. That's how you find out who are the proper wrong 'uns.

If you don't think losing 20,000 coppers over the last seven years has had an effect, ask yourself if losing another 20,000 over the next seven years will have an effect or not.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 07, 2017, 12:16:53 pm
You need to start at the wroot of the problem which leads you straight to the doorstep of Islam and the Koran and that prophet muhammad
( spell check) .

They are still learning from the Koran that is over 1000 years old  and it's exactly the same today as it was back then .

The world and culture had moved on over those 1000 years the Koran had not.

From our side of the fence we had the Old Testement which got changed to the New Testament,which is our guide today.

I have not read all the way throu the Koran ,but parts that I have I found astonishing .maybe I miss read it or interpreted it wrong but there are some parts that are as simple as Day and night







Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on June 07, 2017, 12:27:18 pm
The Old Testament didn't get changed to the New Testament, they are both separate scriptures. The New Testament is at least 1600 years old, the Old Testament from a lot further back than that, centuries BC at least. And neither of them has moved on over the centuries either.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 07, 2017, 12:36:15 pm
Glynn go and have a gander at the Koran and stop putting up smoke screens .its not punters that read the old or new testament that are going around chopping heads off or suicide bombs and knife attacks on U.K. Or European streets.

Just read up on the chap Called Muhammad as he seems to have a very very strong infulance
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: ballysbackin on June 07, 2017, 03:03:30 pm
The wife reversed about 9" into a taxi.
I got my bumper fixed for £250 cash.
The taxi driver claimed soft tissue damage among other things.
He got nearly £6k. I was foaming when the insurance company told me.
Absolutely ridiculous.

No. I pulled up beside him at junc of Balby Rd and Sandord Rd, I had daughter in car and he had two small children. I told him he had hit my car and driven off without waiting, He replied "Yes I did follow me and we will sort it out". At that point remembering there were children there, I just told him I was going to the Police Station, he followed and almost begged me not to go inside. After I agreed and Insurance stuff was underway he decided to place silly bas**rds and hide and seek, So i ensured it went all the way and made sure he lost his job. What an utter bas**rd I am ---- Crossing me is not wise. The reason I did not throttle him was because he would throw the racist card (yes he was not English and not white skinned) That was his saving grace


Taxi driver hit my car in Balby whilst I was in school for daughter, cute bast*** drove off but his number was taken and given to me, low and behold driving towards Donny nick I pulled up beside offending vehicle and gave him what for etc etc etc.  Cost him his job and his insurance a front wing repair my hire car for a week and costs, then they tried to argue the cost of the hire and questioned why I had to have car, I played them at their own game, Here I am a frail man with a heart condition in his mid 60's who has problems walking. Cost them a mint in the end. (Should never try it on with a retired Bobby who knows how to write accident statements up). Oh Happy Days  :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

When you approached that taxi driver Bally did you approach near enough the same way as if you was still in uniform ?

I don't mean by saying ' can you please blow into this bag sir'

I mean your mind set and body stance etc etc > if so alarm bells would have been banging in my head
straight away that you was a rozzer ,and I would act accordingly > in other words not like a James hunt .

You can kid a kidder but rarely will you pull wool over a bobbys or former policemans eyes ,in or out of uniform.
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: not on facebook on June 07, 2017, 03:18:30 pm
Glynn thought you would have read the whole of the Koran by now and can recite it from back to front fella,you have had all afternoon .
Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: glosterred on June 08, 2017, 08:42:45 am
Should the police be told that they have to carry guns and not get the choice?


Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: mrfrostsdad on June 10, 2017, 08:18:06 am
Should the police be told that they have to carry guns and not get the choice?

Nope because that's not what they joined up for. And you'd be amazed how many complaints come in from the public when they see armed officers in supermarkets and takeaways buying their lunch or whatever. In general the public don't like it.

The only forces completely armed are the MOD Police - none in South Yorks but lots in North Yorks - and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary - none in Yorkshire at all.

The Tories plan is to have a new armed force of approximately 4500 armed officers to respond to incidents and patrol high profile targets. This will be made up of MOD Police, CNC and British Transport Police. Some of it is already happening. MOD CNC and BTP already have many armed response vehicles (ARV's) out and about all over the place, but not everywhere. Looks good on paper



Title: Re: Should the U.K. Go with all police carrying arms
Post by: mrfrostsdad on June 10, 2017, 08:21:32 am
I never thought that the IPCC was so anti police mrfrostsdad

I find that shocking and now 200% understand why any police officer would want to stay way clear of been armed.

I have to ask the question in my way only but is the IPCC full of left wing fcukers as that would answer my questions.

I feal sick now

I worked in Professional Standards for a while as an investigator in the rank of Inspector. Had quite a few dealings with the IPCC. When retirement came up a few years ago I applied for a job with them. I'm so glad I didn't get it, I couldn't be so bitter and twisted