Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BobG on June 17, 2017, 10:04:08 pm
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We are constantly told we have the 5th strongest economy in the world. If so we have reached this position while being members of the EU. If Germany and France are the 3rd and 4th strongest economies ditto what is the economic rationale for leaving the EU?
Cheers
BobG
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Is the question aimed at the right people Bob?
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Throughout the 18th and 19th centuries we were No1 in the world. No EU then.
Two world wars contributed to our demise.
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Fair do's TT. Entirely diifferent world back then though. Not a fair comparison in my eyes.
And Hound. Yes. I think so. That's why I suggested the names I did.
Cheers all
BobG
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Didn't May and Corbin vote to remain?
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Throughout the 18th and 19th centuries we were No1 in the world. No EU then.
Two world wars contributed to our demise.
And the fact we stole half of the worlds countries, which we had to give back.
Theres no way you can compare even the 1960's to how it'll be post-Brexit.
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That they did Hound. And both have since repeatedly said they are full steam ahead for hard BREXIT no holds barred. So the question is valid. Unlike your attempts to score a cheap point based on nothing at all.
Cheers
BobG
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That they did Hound. And both have since repeatedly said they are full steam ahead for hard BREXIT no holds barred. So the question is valid. Unlike your attempts to score a cheap point based on nothing at all.
Cheers
BobG
I think they've both changed their tunes based on the will of the people. Leave won, so thats what were doing. Shame Farage, Boris and fish face led us down the garden path.
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That they did Hound. And both have since repeatedly said they are full steam ahead for hard BREXIT no holds barred. So the question is valid. Unlike your attempts to score a cheap point based on nothing at all.
Cheers
BobG
Bob, calm down man, it was two genuine questions, no points scoring intended.
I am not Glyn WigleyFFS.
May and Corbin obviously HAVE to go for Brexit now because it is the will of the people based on the referendum result.
DonnyO, I know lots of people who voted to leave and have subsequently changed their minds.
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That they did Hound. And both have since repeatedly said they are full steam ahead for hard BREXIT no holds barred. So the question is valid. Unlike your attempts to score a cheap point based on nothing at all.
Cheers
BobG
Bob, calm down man, it was two genuine questions, no points scoring intended.
I am not Glyn WigleyFFS.
May and Corbin obviously HAVE to go for Brexit now because it is the will of the people based on the referendum result.
DonnyO, I know lots of people who voted to leave and have subsequently changed their minds.
I don't think people knew the facts, well the ones available and I think the 300 million to the NHS thing also swayed it. If there was a vote today it'll probably end in Remain. I think the GE showed that we should go for a soft Brexit.
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Throughout the 18th and 19th centuries we were No1 in the world. No EU then.
Two world wars contributed to our demise.
And the fact we stole half of the worlds countries, which we had to give back.
Theres no way you can compare even the 1960's to how it'll be post-Brexit.
I'm not saying I agree with the Imperial ambitions of our ancestors.....though you could apply the 'What have the Romans done for us' arguement as defenders of the Empire do.
We were the richest country in the World for many decades. Fact. That it was built on slavery and oppression is also a fact.
I dont know when we slipped to 5th or 6th or if we've been lower still.
No doubt we'll fall further as we leave the EU. For a while at least.
But does it really matter where we are in the league as long as we get through Brexit in one piece. There's no promotion or even play offs.
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Oh come on Tommy :) you know better than that. I don't remember the figures off hand, but during the 60's and 70's we did nothing but slide down the world wealth table. Productivity was crap and productivity growth was worse. We were overtaken by Italy at one point I recall. Our resurgance has come about whilst a member of EU. So my question continues to be valid.
Cheers :)
BobG
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We are constantly told we have the 5th strongest economy in the world. If so we have reached this position while being members of the EU. If Germany and France are the 3rd and 4th strongest economies ditto what is the economic rationale for leaving the EU?
Cheers
BobG
17.5 m people voted to leave . That's all you need to know . We are 5th Germany 4th France 6 th
USA 1
China 2
Japan 3
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Now, as you know I'm no expert on this, but could the answer for the slump of the 60's/70's be down to the country's complacency? And could that be the answer to why we have slumped to 5th in the world now?
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That they did Hound. And both have since repeatedly said they are full steam ahead for hard BREXIT no holds barred. So the question is valid. Unlike your attempts to score a cheap point based on nothing at all.
Cheers
BobG
Corbyn campaigned for a soft Brexit during the election, not a hard Brexit.
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I know he did Glyn. But since the election he's confirmed the Labour Party will support the Government in pushing through a hard Brexit. So the question is for him too as well as the other more obvious ones.
Bob
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We've hovered round 4th and 5th for the best part of 20 years now. I hardly think today's 5th represents a slump.
Bob
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We've hovered round 4th and 5th for the best part of 20 years now. I hardly think today's 5th represents a slump.
Bob
Ask Liverpool FC supporters.
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Some economists would now argue that we have slid to 7th ( overtaken by both France and India ) and by 2050 will slip towards the teens . This next 30 years will be about tech industries/ automation and resources.
By 2050 we will be overtaken by Russia, Mexico, Brazil, The Philippines, Indonesia.
This was scheduled to happen without Brexit , now it is more likely to happen by 2040 given that we have chosen not only the nonsense of Brexit but the hardest way to do it .
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I know he did Glyn. But since the election he's confirmed the Labour Party will support the Government in pushing through a hard Brexit. So the question is for him too as well as the other more obvious ones.
Bob
I've not seen Corbyn advocate anything of the such.
He continues to say he wants a jobs-first Brexit, with tariff free access to the single market. He has also committed to managing migration to stop companies undercutting workers here by bringing in workers from the EU when there clearly isn't a skill set shortage. I don't really consider that a hard Brexit.
He may have said that Labour won't block Brexit as it was voted by the people, but that doesn't necessarily mean he supports a hard Brexit.
If I'm being completely honest I actually think Corbyn's attitude to the EU was much more similar to that of the public. On balance he was 7/10 to remain but he did have specific concerns about the capitalist nature of the EU and the balance of power he was also one of the few campaigning to remain that wasn't promising the Sky would fall in if we left. It's a shame that no-one was really campaigning the Leave side from a left wing perspective; instead we ended up with political jesters like Farage and Johnson.
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Mr Bob Gilbert, still exiled in Bath ?
The Europe issue is just a manifestation of Nash's prisoners dilemma. To cooperate of not.
Firstly we are major net contributors. In addition we import far more from Europe than we export, they really do need us to cooperate.
They have never published a single set of accounts and when you see as I recently did the billions that have squandoured on vanity projects in Malta and Gozo they never will, because at that point someone wil become responsible, to blame and therefore guilty.
When the payoffs are evenly distributed it is better to cooperate, but they were not. When the game has a finite number of iterations i0t is best not to. The EU is yet another failed piece of socialist dogma that turned into a monster designed to liberate us from our fortunes, common sense, dignity and national identity.
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British people have changed their minds on Brexit latest poll finds:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-people-changed-minds-brexit-second-referendum-poll-finds-a7795591.html
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Blimey...the EU is a product of socialist dogma!
That will come as a big surprise to Greece, and anyone else at odds with the neo-liberal economic mantra which has characterised the priorities of German Banks.
On the OP, the key factor is surely the nature of the economy, alongside its size at any particular point.
The UK was exposed to structural change because it is underdeveloped and underskilled in the sunrise sectors. Political and regulatory capture by vested interests means that we defend the old order and resist the new, giving first mover advantage to others.
The UK are still supporting a declining sector to the point of irrationality. An example would be Hinkley Point nuclear, the worst value for money scheme I have ever seen.
Still waiting for the great leap forward.
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When we do eventually leave the EU they will certainly miss our huge financial contribution. In return we will miss....?
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When we do eventually leave the EU they will certainly miss our huge financial contribution. In return we will miss....?
Visa free travel across Europe.
The ability to live and work in the EU and receive health insurance.
The ability to retire in an EU country and receive a pension.
Access to a single market of 500 million people worth £16.6 trillion per year (23% of the global economy)
3.1 million jobs directly linked to EU exports.
4-5% of GDP (£62-£78 billion) per year directly linked to EU trade (as defined by the CBI).
Past EU membership has reckoned to have increased GDP by 10%.
£1.2 trillion inward stock investment.
Agricultural subsidy for 500 000 farmers, the people they employ and the steep rise in some food prices this loss would entail.
Coverage by EU consumer law if you are on holiday in EU.
Links to EU Police and Security Information.
University and science links and joint projects.
Collaborative projects such as the Eurofighter.
The risk of EU owned companies - Airbus, BMW - pulling out of manufacturing in the UK.
Protection of beaches and coastal waters under EU Bathing directive.
Air Quality under EU plans to cut CO2 emissions.
EU regulations to cut polluting industries, water and acid rain.
Foreign multinationals using the UK as a tax haven
According to the CBI:- The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP. As a comparison that’s around a quarter of what the UK spends on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spend. The £116 per person net contribution is less than that from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and the Netherlands.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
https://fullfact.org/europe/economic-costs-and-benefits-eu-membership/
but at least we wont have to put up with straight bananas anymore...
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That is quite a list.
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Last month David Davis promised the 'row of the summer' if Brexit talks were to follow the timetable laid out by the EU.
https://www.ft.com/content/01396086-38ae-11e7-821a-6027b8a20f23
Today (the first day of the talks) he caved in on that.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-latest-uk-eu-divorce-deal-government-agrees-caves-in-before-trade-deal-a7798076.html
Welcome to the Hotel California (copyright TRB).
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That is quite a list.
OK hands up, you've got me, I copied most of it.
And didn't mention the Prevention of over fishing with EU quotas that have seen fish stocks rise in British waters.
Or the Open Irish Border.
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That is quite a list.
OK hands up, you've got me, I copied most of it.
And didn't mention the Prevention of over fishing with EU quotas that have seen fish stocks rise in British waters.
Or the Open Irish Border.
TBH I kind of guessed you must have copied it from somewhere.
However, I think that many Brexiteers never knew or considered that so many things would become major issues.
A lad I work with voted out so that "we could decide who we let into the UK and not be ruled by Brussels".
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When we do eventually leave the EU they will certainly miss our huge financial contribution. In return we will miss....?
Visa free travel across Europe.
The ability to live and work in the EU and receive health insurance.
The ability to retire in an EU country and receive a pension.
Access to a single market of 500 million people worth £16.6 trillion per year (23% of the global economy)
3.1 million jobs directly linked to EU exports.
4-5% of GDP (£62-£78 billion) per year directly linked to EU trade (as defined by the CBI).
Past EU membership has reckoned to have increased GDP by 10%.
£1.2 trillion inward stock investment.
Agricultural subsidy for 500 000 farmers, the people they employ and the steep rise in some food prices this loss would entail.
Coverage by EU consumer law if you are on holiday in EU.
Links to EU Police and Security Information.
University and science links and joint projects.
Collaborative projects such as the Eurofighter.
The risk of EU owned companies - Airbus, BMW - pulling out of manufacturing in the UK.
Protection of beaches and coastal waters under EU Bathing directive.
Air Quality under EU plans to cut CO2 emissions.
EU regulations to cut polluting industries, water and acid rain.
Foreign multinationals using the UK as a tax haven
According to the CBI:- The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP. As a comparison that’s around a quarter of what the UK spends on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spend. The £116 per person net contribution is less than that from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and the Netherlands.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
https://fullfact.org/europe/economic-costs-and-benefits-eu-membership/
but at least we wont have to put up with straight bananas anymore...
Total b*llocks nobody and I mean nobody at this point in time can say what Brexit means and what if any agreement will be reached, we may carry on contributing to a lesser extent to keep some "benefits" we may we may not
Politicians don't know at this point (although those involved may have a fair inkling) the press don't know, I don't know, Glyn and Wilts despite their claims don't know :) :)
Pure speculation the lot of it
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You reckon. The question from Herbert was what does our financial contribution to the EU get us. It gets us all those things I have listed and probably more I haven't.
If you want to speculate which of these we may or may not want to keep or are bargaining on - thats up to you. But nothing I have listed is speculation, that is what we get from the EU - unless you wish to prove otherwise. I have handily linked to where I took the information from for you.
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Wilts what we end up with is pure speculation simple as now matter what anybody says
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When we do eventually leave the EU they will certainly miss our huge financial contribution. In return we will miss....?
Visa free travel across Europe.
The ability to live and work in the EU and receive health insurance.
The ability to retire in an EU country and receive a pension.
Access to a single market of 500 million people worth £16.6 trillion per year (23% of the global economy)
3.1 million jobs directly linked to EU exports.
4-5% of GDP (£62-£78 billion) per year directly linked to EU trade (as defined by the CBI).
Past EU membership has reckoned to have increased GDP by 10%.
£1.2 trillion inward stock investment.
Agricultural subsidy for 500 000 farmers, the people they employ and the steep rise in some food prices this loss would entail.
Coverage by EU consumer law if you are on holiday in EU.
Links to EU Police and Security Information.
University and science links and joint projects.
Collaborative projects such as the Eurofighter.
The risk of EU owned companies - Airbus, BMW - pulling out of manufacturing in the UK.
Protection of beaches and coastal waters under EU Bathing directive.
Air Quality under EU plans to cut CO2 emissions.
EU regulations to cut polluting industries, water and acid rain.
Foreign multinationals using the UK as a tax haven
According to the CBI:- The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP. As a comparison that’s around a quarter of what the UK spends on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spend. The £116 per person net contribution is less than that from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and the Netherlands.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
https://fullfact.org/europe/economic-costs-and-benefits-eu-membership/
but at least we wont have to put up with straight bananas anymore...
That's some list Wilts - thanks for sharing
I think that Dagenham is right that we have no idea at all what we'll end up with. I voted leave after I read an article describing how the EU had evolved pretty much uncontrollably from an economic organisation to a political one. If it was all about commerce and co-operation I'd have certainly voted remain, however emphasis is now on political union rather than economic and I'm very uncomfortable with that. For example, the fact that if there's any conflict between parliament and a Brussels institution then Brussels automatically takes precedence leaves me cold.
I'm still not convinced leaving is the right thing to do though, only time will tell I guess.
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When we are 40th will the Germans, French, Romanians, and Belgians, like the British taking their jobs or begging in their cities and taking advantage of their great social payments.
And will the poor British workers blend in with local customs,dress,etc in China India and Pakistan.
The one thing that will not change is money being made by the same banking families though.
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That's some list Wilts - thanks for sharing
No problem Herbert, glad it was useful.
I have gone the other way to you, in that I voted to remain but I think we should now leave - it has divided the country too much and that is the last thing we need now.
However what the list of benefits should show is how it would be madness to leave without a deal. Yes fine we can leave the political institution of the EU - but we should certainly be aiming to have the maximum economic benefits of working with it. For which there will be a cost.
And that's where Daggers is right - we certainly dont know what we will end up with - my worry is that with David Davies and Liam Fox leading the negotiations we will end up with something worse.
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What we need are reputable people that are honest, fair, trustworthy and credible.
They will be thin on the ground in Westminster and if we can't put our trust in them how can the EU?
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It looks almost impossible for this government to deliver any Brexit at all. There are going to be some very, very interesting times ahead. And whatever way things go, it is likely to be trouble. If the Maybot goes full steam ahead for some sort of hard Brexit, she will be guaranteed the support of the Brexiteer types. But she will lose the moderates of both major parties as well as the Lib Dems. if she bends in the wind a bit, like Hammond is suggesting, she will have the DUP at her throat and the likes of Farage, the blond haired buffoon, Rentagob Ian Duncan Smith and the press all screaming blue murder. She is going to find it immensely difficult to get ANY deal approved. And if that happens, we really would be in the deepest of deep doo doo.
Possible futures we might see: Boris Johnson as PM on the grounds that he will be more likely to carry the middle ground while maintaining a hard stance, and, keep the Tories in power. Or the Maybot carrying on and suffering catastrophic defeat as she fails to get any deal agreed. That would lead to a general election and an exit with no deal at all. Third option, and the one that usually happens, some kind of fudge. But I'm damned if I can think what sort of fudge might have a chance of working. Bribe some folk I suppose with peerages or give some positions in the Cabinet so they have to follow cabinet responsibility rules; propaganda maybe? I still can't see even a slightly workable solution for this government though.
BobG
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When we do eventually leave the EU they will certainly miss our huge financial contribution. In return we will miss....?
Visa free travel across Europe.
The ability to live and work in the EU and receive health insurance.
The ability to retire in an EU country and receive a pension.
Access to a single market of 500 million people worth £16.6 trillion per year (23% of the global economy)
3.1 million jobs directly linked to EU exports.
4-5% of GDP (£62-£78 billion) per year directly linked to EU trade (as defined by the CBI).
Past EU membership has reckoned to have increased GDP by 10%.
£1.2 trillion inward stock investment.
Agricultural subsidy for 500 000 farmers, the people they employ and the steep rise in some food prices this loss would entail.
Coverage by EU consumer law if you are on holiday in EU.
Links to EU Police and Security Information.
University and science links and joint projects.
Collaborative projects such as the Eurofighter.
The risk of EU owned companies - Airbus, BMW - pulling out of manufacturing in the UK.
Protection of beaches and coastal waters under EU Bathing directive.
Air Quality under EU plans to cut CO2 emissions.
EU regulations to cut polluting industries, water and acid rain.
Foreign multinationals using the UK as a tax haven
According to the CBI:- The UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is around €7.3bn, or 0.4% of GDP. As a comparison that’s around a quarter of what the UK spends on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and less than an eighth of the UK’s defence spend. The £116 per person net contribution is less than that from Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Germany and the Netherlands.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-what-has-european-union-done-for-us-david-cameron-brexit-a6850626.html
http://www.cbi.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/our-global-future/factsheets/factsheet-2-benefits-of-eu-membership-outweigh-costs/
https://fullfact.org/europe/economic-costs-and-benefits-eu-membership/
but at least we wont have to put up with straight bananas anymore...
Total b*llocks nobody and I mean nobody at this point in time can say what Brexit means and what if any agreement will be reached, we may carry on contributing to a lesser extent to keep some "benefits" we may we may not
Politicians don't know at this point (although those involved may have a fair inkling) the press don't know, I don't know, Glyn and Wilts despite their claims don't know :) :)
Pure speculation the lot of it
Only you know it isn't bollox really Daggers. £ 10 billion p.a. for that net of Development projects that would never have been carried out in Donny by a Westminster Govt.
It may shock you to know that Donny alone in this region was in receipt of over £ 150,000,000 worth of grants. Doncaster is a vastly different borough than 40 years ago .........look around you .
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Wilts what we end up with is pure speculation simple as now matter what anybody says
It's not speculation it's fact, we want in those things, ANY of those things we pay for it simples . They are ALL EU projects and one's we are putting on the table when we are going all in in this poker game. In fact better still why don't we just keep playing Russian Roulette by ourselves
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Wilts what we end up with is pure speculation simple as now matter what anybody says
It's not speculation it's fact, we want in those things, ANY of those things we pay for it simples . They are ALL EU projects and one's we are putting on the table when we are going all in in this poker game. In fact better still why don't we just keep playing Russian Roulette by ourselves
Hoola all I am saying is nobody and I mean nobody knows what we will end up with deal or no deal anyway I'll chuck you a pm tomorrow need a pint together ar lass very ill again
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That's some list Wilts - thanks for sharing
No problem Herbert, glad it was useful.
I have gone the other way to you, in that I voted to remain but I think we should now leave - it has divided the country too much and that is the last thing we need now.
However what the list of benefits should show is how it would be madness to leave without a deal. Yes fine we can leave the political institution of the EU - but we should certainly be aiming to have the maximum economic benefits of working with it. For which there will be a cost.
And that's where Daggers is right - we certainly dont know what we will end up with - my worry is that with David Davies and Liam Fox leading the negotiations we will end up with something worse.
I'm surprised that you now think it is better to leave having produced a list like that , incidentally those that worry about being ruled from Brussels/Berlin had better reconsider their opposition to the EU ; better that than being dictated to by Washington and Beijing.
Sorry I think you ''Leavers '' are basically mad others sadly are still fighting WW2.
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Total b*llocks nobody and I mean nobody at this point in time can say what Brexit means and what if any agreement will be reached, we may carry on contributing to a lesser extent to keep some "benefits" we may we may not
Politicians don't know at this point (although those involved may have a fair inkling) the press don't know, I don't know, Glyn and Wilts despite their claims don't know :) :)
Pure speculation the lot of it
I'd like to know what claims you think I've made. Then we'll see what 'total b*llocks' really looks like.
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Wilts what we end up with is pure speculation simple as now matter what anybody says
It's not speculation it's fact, we want in those things, ANY of those things we pay for it simples . They are ALL EU projects and one's we are putting on the table when we are going all in in this poker game. In fact better still why don't we just keep playing Russian Roulette by ourselves
Hoola all I am saying is nobody and I mean nobody knows what we will end up with deal or no deal anyway I'll chuck you a pm tomorrow need a pint together ar lass very ill again
You have pm :)