Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: hoolahoop on December 08, 2017, 07:18:15 am
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Why do people hate Brexit was the question ?
A response from a reader on a forum.......
" Sure. I grew up in Britain but live in Canada. I get paid in pounds which I must spend as Cdn dollars. So my income is down 22% since Brexit.
More importantly, my wife is French. So I can no longer move back to Britain to look after my parents if they get sick. Not without abandoning my wife.
So Brexit has made me sharply poorer and needlessly separated my family. But, as someone who grew up in Britain, that's not why I hate it most.
I hate Brexit because it's a cowardly and brainless betrayal of the Free West, pushed by Putin and swallowed by gullible bigots. Because it's a straight road to WW3, laid by people who are apparently nostalgic about World Wars One and Two. Because it makes Britain hated around the world as a self-declared enemy of our common humanity.
If only Brexiters were capable of grasping the pointless suffering they're already causing, and the ill-feeling they've stirred up against Britain around the world. They'd be even more terrified of the outside world than they are today. "
Certainly an eye - opener.
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What do Brexiters think of this post , does it bring anything into focus or do you want to plow on regardless ? This is not an isolated incident many of our people are married to Europeans.
Will this cause many legal challenges in future as little mention of how the agreements on rights will actually work in principle .
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I don't think that anyone that voted leave wanted to split up families or exclude spouses of British nationals. The fear pushed by UKIP and jumped on by some tabloids and Brexiteers was wholesale immigration from the Middle East, Africa, Asia and an ever growing EEU.
All currencies rise and fall, Brits visiting Spain, Italy, Greece pre Euro thought that it was great when the pound went up against the peseta,Lira and Drachma.
Had the EEU given Cameron something more tangible to offer voters and had he and Osborne been more diligent in their roles we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Yes and that is the irony I feel every day. We voted IN when asked if we wanted to join the Common Market (I personally did not want to go in and voted NO)
Ever since that day the Tories (not exclusively) have been split and time and again (against the wishes of the Electorate) the we want out Brigade have waged campaigns to get us to leave the EU
Finally Cameron tried to silence them with a Referendum. Incidentally how many people believe that if the Vote had said "Remain" that the "out" brigade would have respected the wishes of the electorate even if the vote had been 60 Stay 40 Leave (no me neither)
So Cameron gambled on winning the Vote and hopefully shutting the anti EU mob up but duly b*****d it up. We are now suffering the results of that gamble (which I have to say MAY be ok in the long run) and those who voted Remain are being told time and again - "its democracy get over it"
However by the same token I would be delighted if someone forced another vote somehow or an independent Poll showed that if a Vote was held right now that it would likely end 60 - 40 to forget the whole thing AND the people rose to demand action be taken. After all that would be Democratic too surely ?
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Wolfie, i would love to see that happen (the poll) and see the repercussions if it came out in favour of remain.
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Having lived in the Netherlands (36 years) and Germany (3 years) I probably have a different natural perspective of Europe to that of most residents in the UK. To me Europe is not 'that place over the sea', a view which IMHO gives a certain idea of distance and difference from the UK. I more naturally see the large commonality of the British with the Dutch and Germans before any differences. Before we take any financial factors into consideration at all, I am very sad to see us driving a wedge between ourselves and other Europeans. Not being in Alliances like the EU, whatever its bureaucracy, is in my eyes a weaker position to be in for geopolitical stability, and one much wanted by Russia among others. NATO may be the military alliance for defence, but the EU can put more political and financial pressure on countries like Russia than the UK can on its own, way before any military action might become necessary, and in that sense the EU plays and important part of deterrence.
On a personal level, on retirement 4 years ago my wife and I decided to leave the Netherlands to move to the truly wonderful part of the world that is Northern Ireland. I am very upset that Brexit is de-stabilising Northern Ireland. We will have to wait and see how things develop. I am quietly hopeful that 2 decades of peace will be sufficient to deny extreme hot-heads on both sides enough popular support to mount significant disruptive campaigns, but a dreadful scenario of spiralling and coordinated violence, unthinkable 2 years ago, has now become merely unlikely rather than impossible.
And by the way that would have large financial implications as well.
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Why do people hate Brexit was the question ?
A response from a reader on a forum.......
" Sure. I grew up in Britain but live in Canada. I get paid in pounds which I must spend as Cdn dollars. So my income is down 22% since Brexit.
More importantly, my wife is French. So I can no longer move back to Britain to look after my parents if they get sick. Not without abandoning my wife.
So Brexit has made me sharply poorer and needlessly separated my family. But, as someone who grew up in Britain, that's not why I hate it most.
I hate Brexit because it's a cowardly and brainless betrayal of the Free West, pushed by Putin and swallowed by gullible bigots. Because it's a straight road to WW3, laid by people who are apparently nostalgic about World Wars One and Two. Because it makes Britain hated around the world as a self-declared enemy of our common humanity.
If only Brexiters were capable of grasping the pointless suffering they're already causing, and the ill-feeling they've stirred up against Britain around the world. They'd be even more terrified of the outside world than they are today. "
Certainly an eye - opener.
What a load of bunkum, blame it on the Russians,sorry about your income being down in 2 years it will be back to where it was.
Who has said your wife can't accompany you back to the UK?
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Why do people hate Brexit was the question ?
A response from a reader on a forum.......
" Sure. I grew up in Britain but live in Canada. I get paid in pounds which I must spend as Cdn dollars. So my income is down 22% since Brexit.
More importantly, my wife is French. So I can no longer move back to Britain to look after my parents if they get sick. Not without abandoning my wife.
So Brexit has made me sharply poorer and needlessly separated my family. But, as someone who grew up in Britain, that's not why I hate it most.
I hate Brexit because it's a cowardly and brainless betrayal of the Free West, pushed by Putin and swallowed by gullible bigots. Because it's a straight road to WW3, laid by people who are apparently nostalgic about World Wars One and Two. Because it makes Britain hated around the world as a self-declared enemy of our common humanity.
If only Brexiters were capable of grasping the pointless suffering they're already causing, and the ill-feeling they've stirred up against Britain around the world. They'd be even more terrified of the outside world than they are today. "
Certainly an eye - opener.
What a load of bunkum, blame it on the Russians,sorry about your income being down in 2 years it will be back to where it was.
Who has said your wife can't accompany you back to the UK?
Sproty
I respect your Brexit views and admire your confidence that the UK will be able to strike great trade deals within 2 years in order to regain the (rather more than) 22% against the Euro (it has fallen from above 1.40 to approximately 1.13). By the way the rise in the Euro also affects me negatively.
Hopefully you will respect my opinion (and it is only that) that deals will take longer, especially in the services area which is so critical to us. I am also short on confidence in our negotiators, and read with trepidation reports that our workforce is relatively poorly equipped with up to date skills in many areas. In my opinion the only way prolonged international confidence in the pound will allow it to regain 1.40 against the Euro is several years after any deals have been negotiated (which in itself, allowing for at least a 2 year transition is a minimum of 4-5 years away) - I would say a total 10 years away minimum if all goes way way better than all forecasts. It is entirely possible it will not happen in my lifetime.
The only other scenario is a run on the Euro caused by a total breakup of the EU, or a Russian invasion of EU territory - e.g. in the Baltics.
The post quoted by Hoola is from someone who presumably never sees this forum, so we can only speculate. One scenario is that the gentleman concerned has taken out dual Canadian-British citizenship. All will depend on the type of Brexit deal struck with the EU, but IMHO it is entirely possible in a hard Brexit that if the gentleman decides he wishes to move back to the UK and live here to be near his parents, that the deal struck with the EU would not allow the French wife of a dual citizen residential rights in the UK.
It is possible that the UK, over a longer period of time, say 25 years, might make a success of Brexit. I have my own doubts. However even in that case the 'success' would have to be set against the shorter term downturn, and loss of respect in much of the world - similar to the way Trump is losing much global respect for the USA.
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Dutch I personally knew several people who lived here quite happily with European passports before we went into the Common Market, so I just don't see what all of the scaremongering is about, we certainly were a lot worse off after we went in,1 was 14 and it was topical as you would imagine, Lamb went from being cheep to expensive as did butter, I have no worries about trade as we import more than we export. London is the commercial centre of the world because of its geographical position and Language spoken. I do see your issue over the Pound/euro but we kept the Pound for a good reaso, besides if Labour get in you will be in an even worse financial position, Jezza will have to find his £200 billion loan from somewhere and will then have to tax us all into penury to pay for all the mis spending.
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I have no worries about trade as we import more than we export.
Any country that imports more than it exports should be worried. Why aren't you?
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Glynn we went into Europe when I was going Geography at Comp,we imported more than we exported back in those days, joining the EU didn't change anything, just everything got more expensive,we could buy cheap lamb,butter etc from New Zealand, we could' buy cheap beef from Argentina or Paraguay etc.al of that stopped when we went into the Eu.
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The world has changed. We aren't the global power we once were. It's not the fault of the EU or anyone else. Empires rise and fall. Look at the Romans, the Spanish and the Swedish. We are on the down slope at the end of the empire. The EU is a cushion to ensure we don't become an international backwater, and maintain influence greater than our size deserves.
Unfortunately that has been pulled out from under us because of people like farage and his pay masters exploiting peoples fears in order to push through their political ideology.
The sooner the government realises this is a massive mistake and stops us leaving the EU the better it will be for all of us.
As for prices going up, that's called inflation. All prices rise. It's as inevitable as the sun rising and setting.
I have to admit as well as a member of the army based in Germany with a Dutch wife and a mongrel dutch/german/British child, I am very biased.
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Who has said your wife can't accompany you back to the UK?
The position of the UK government on what would happen to EU citizens already in the UK, and UK citizens in the EU - ie freedom of movement - was not debated, voted on, agreed nor publicised before the Brexit referendum.
For those of us with a direct interest in EU/UK citizen movements, that point was/is pivotal to what happens regardless of any macro-economic issues.
For instance, if the recent "progress" had resulted in a situation where EU citizens currently in the UK had to go back to Europe after Brexit ie March 2019, part of my family would have been broken up.
Now why do you think I would have voted remain??
I may have actually voted leave (for other reasons) had the citizenship/movement issue been clearly defined before the vote.
But there were NO details (of a Brexit) defined before the vote, so anyone voting to leave - albeit with the best of intentions maybe - cannot have known what they were actually voting for!
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Glynn we went into Europe when I was going Geography at Comp,we imported more than we exported back in those days, joining the EU didn't change anything, just everything got more expensive,we could buy cheap lamb,butter etc from New Zealand, we could' buy cheap beef from Argentina or Paraguay etc.al of that stopped when we went into the Eu.
OK thats the sheep farming and beef farming industry in this country destroyed - any more you are planning to get rid off with your cheap imports?
Also its fine talking about cheap imports but we are about to loose 40% of our export market - where do you propose making that up from - and the jobs that puts at risk?
You need to read some current geography and economic books - thenyou will see how much the world has moved on since 1973.
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Who has said your wife can't accompany you back to the UK?
If you are a UK citizen there are conditions for bringing a spouse who is not a UK citizen to live in the UK. The main one being salary or income. The person in the OP is talking about coming here to look after their parents, so presumably not working. So unless they have a very large pot of savings no they woudn't be allowed to bring their wife to live in the UK after Brexit.
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Glynn we went into Europe when I was going Geography at Comp,we imported more than we exported back in those days, joining the EU didn't change anything, just everything got more expensive,we could buy cheap lamb,butter etc from New Zealand, we could' buy cheap beef from Argentina or Paraguay etc.al of that stopped when we went into the Eu.
That doesn't answer why importing more than we export doesn't worry you.
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Wilts those sheep farms survive on subsidies they keep the hills covered in Grass instead of the natural vegetation which is trees, bring back the environmentally friendly trees is what I say. Get up into Hazelrigg Windermere for a taste of what it should be like.
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Glynn when has it ever been different?
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Sproty
Lift your head up mate and look beyond your hatred of the EU/EEC.
Things got more expensive after we joined the EEC because of massive geo-political issues (collapse of the Bretton Woods Agreement, OPEC oil price hike) and the stupidity of home policy (the Barber Boom).
What you’re doing is saying B happened after A so therefore A caused B whilst ignoring C, D and E that we’re going on at the same time.
It’s the same thing that many people did in the Referendum. People had years of depressed living standards at the same time that we had lots of people move here from the EU. Therefore the immigrants depressed our standard of living. It’s bullshit but it’s seductive bullshit.
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Glynn when has it ever been different?
You're still not telling why it doesn't bother you.
It bothers me because the invisible imports that kept us just about afloat are those that are going to disappear to elsewhere within the EU. That does worry me. But you say it doesn't worry you, I'm just trying to find out why. Saying it's never been any different is (a) not accurate and (b) not answering the question.
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Why do people hate Brexit was the question ?
A response from a reader on a forum.......
" Sure. I grew up in Britain but live in Canada. I get paid in pounds which I must spend as Cdn dollars. So my income is down 22% since Brexit.
More importantly, my wife is French. So I can no longer move back to Britain to look after my parents if they get sick. Not without abandoning my wife.
So Brexit has made me sharply poorer and needlessly separated my family. But, as someone who grew up in Britain, that's not why I hate it most.
I hate Brexit because it's a cowardly and brainless betrayal of the Free West, pushed by Putin and swallowed by gullible bigots. Because it's a straight road to WW3, laid by people who are apparently nostalgic about World Wars One and Two. Because it makes Britain hated around the world as a self-declared enemy of our common humanity.
If only Brexiters were capable of grasping the pointless suffering they're already causing, and the ill-feeling they've stirred up against Britain around the world. They'd be even more terrified of the outside world than they are today. "
Certainly an eye - opener.
What a load of bunkum, blame it on the Russians,sorry about your income being down in 2 years it will be back to where it was.
Who has said your wife can't accompany you back to the UK?
" A response from a reader on a forum "
Sproty for some reason you think that this poster can read your response - at least he wasn't coming from Nigeria or did you think it was me ?
He either has a good imagination or simply isn't aware that " he's talking a load of Bunkum "on the other hand how are you qualified to discredit him ?
Don't tell me you did O Level " Homeland Security " at school ?
What evidence do you have that " his income will be back to where it was " ?
Why would he be so different from the average working man/ woman who here who are suffering from exactly the opposite ?
Do you agree that he should " blame it on the Russians " if so why ?
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Why do people hate Brexit was the question ?
A response from a reader on a forum.......
" Sure. I grew up in Britain but live in Canada. I get paid in pounds which I must spend as Cdn dollars. So my income is down 22% since Brexit.
More importantly, my wife is French. So I can no longer move back to Britain to look after my parents if they get sick. Not without abandoning my wife.
So Brexit has made me sharply poorer and needlessly separated my family. But, as someone who grew up in Britain, that's not why I hate it most.
I hate Brexit because it's a cowardly and brainless betrayal of the Free West, pushed by Putin and swallowed by gullible bigots. Because it's a straight road to WW3, laid by people who are apparently nostalgic about World Wars One and Two. Because it makes Britain hated around the world as a self-declared enemy of our common humanity.
If only Brexiters were capable of grasping the pointless suffering they're already causing, and the ill-feeling they've stirred up against Britain around the world. They'd be even more terrified of the outside world than they are today. "
Certainly an eye - opener.
What a load of bunkum, blame it on the Russians,sorry about your income being down in 2 years it will be back to where it was.
Who has said your wife can't accompany you back to the UK?
" A response from a reader on a forum "
Sproty for some reason you think that this poster can read your response - at least he wasn't coming from Nigeria or did you think it was me ?
He either has a good imagination or simply isn't aware that " he's talking a load of Bunkum "on the other hand how are you qualified to discredit him ?
Don't tell me you did O Level " Homeland Security " at school ?
What evidence do you have that " his income will be back to where it was " ?
Why would he be so different from the average working man/ woman who here who are suffering from exactly the opposite ?
Do you agree that he should " blame it on the Russians " if so why ?
It's difficult to respond to your comments Sprotty without the term naive coming to mind, I dislike using terms that could offend people especially on forums as it usually end up in an argument rather than a debate about the subject at hand but your comments don't appear to be backed up by any serious thought process or facts
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The future is an unknown, How can I evidence the future, likewise all of the Nay Sayers on here do the same, people generally don't like change, that's one lesson I have learnt,I have a feeling that the same people posting to remain will be against any change in their workplace.
By the way when have I asked any body on here to produce their professional qualifications?
Sydney rover are you the gobby programme seller who used to come up into the South stand telling fish wives tales? If so you don't even have a say on here you broadcast quite openly that the country had gone to the Dogs and you were off to OZ.
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The future is an unknown, How can I evidence the future, likewise all of the Nay Sayers on here do the same, people generally don't like change, that's one lesson I have learnt,I have a feeling that the same people posting to remain will be against any change in their workplace.
By the way when have I asked any body on here to produce their professional qualifications?
Sydney rover are you the gobby programme seller who used to come up into the South stand telling fish wives tales? If so you don't even have a say on here you broadcast quite openly that the country had gone to the Dogs and you were off to OZ.
To say the future is unknown you seem very certain of what's going to happen to someone's income in two years.
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I'm entitled to an opinion every body else thinks they will be worse off.
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So you don't know anything either?
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That's correct.
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This could prove interesting.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/20/eu-process-poland-voting-rights
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I personally find it interesting that people use an economic argument for staying within the EU.
Firstly the two richest countries in Europe are both outside of the EU (Norway and Switzerland), uk industry has been decimated and the national debt within the UK has dramatically increased since 1973.
There have only been 12 recessions since 1880, 8 have occurred since 1973 when we entered the EU.
This is true for most countries within the EU, as below, so please can somebody explain how the EU has benefited anybody financially?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/
I personally see a no deal benefiting Britian as it will lead to an increase in industry and the cheap gbp will encourage the export market.
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I'll presume that Sproty will think you don't know what you're talking about too..!
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I'll presume that Sproty will think you don't know what you're talking about too..!
Do you mind not mentioning me when you are trying to Patronise another posters views...thanks
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I'll presume that Sproty will think you don't know what you're talking about too..!
Do you mind not mentioning me when you are trying to Patronise another posters views...thanks
Maybe I have missed something but I’m not sure he was trying to patronise me, I felt it was aimed at you.
I think that the facts I presented in terms of the national debt of the U.K. and other eu countries speaks volumes for the lack of success the eu has achieved financially. The facts about the debt, lack of industry and recesssions are indisputable.
There were very good arguments for coming out of the eu that the press have never put across.
It is also worth mentioning that in 1973 the vote was to go in to the eu, not about entering a trade agreement.
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No, I wasn't patronising you at all. I was going to see what he would say because either he believes what he says and thinks you don't know anything along with everybody else, (which really is patronising) and I was absolutely right in what I posted so I don't know what he's complaining about - or he doesn't even believe what he says himself.
One little point, the vote was in 1975 not 1973, and was about remaining in the EEC, not the EU.
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Sprotty You get challenged because the "factoids" that you state are rarely if ever backed up by citations, they are just thought bubbles or something you have heard someone else say that was also made up also. It's this type of unsubstantiated garbage that put Britain in this position in the first place.
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I personally find it interesting that people use an economic argument for staying within the EU.
Firstly the two richest countries in Europe are both outside of the EU (Norway and Switzerland), uk industry has been decimated and the national debt within the UK has dramatically increased since 1973.
There have only been 12 recessions since 1880, 8 have occurred since 1973 when we entered the EU.
This is true for most countries within the EU, as below, so please can somebody explain how the EU has benefited anybody financially?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/
I personally see a no deal benefiting Britian as it will lead to an increase in industry and the cheap gbp will encourage the export market.
Aidanstu
Difficult to know where to start with that but here’s an attempt.
1) There haven’t been 8 recessions in the UK since we joined the EEC/EU. There have been 5. None of them were in any way connected to our membership.
1973/74. Cause: A combination of the OPEC oil price hike, coming down off the Barber Boom and the Miners’ strike.
1975. A very brief second dip after the 73/74 recession.
1980/81. Cuts in Govt spending and huge increases in interest rates in the UK and USA in a deliberate attempt to squash inflation.
1990/91. US credit house crash combined with coming down from the madly overheating economy of 1988/89.
2008/09. The Global (mainly American) financial crash.
2) There were three Depressions in the earlier time period you highlighted, which caused economic carnage that you could not begin to imagine (1870-95, 1919-22 and 1930-33).
3) Norway is fantastically wealthy because for the past 40 years it has had as much oil as us, but it has a population smaller than Yorkshire. And they didn’t fritter the oil money away on tax cuts which fuelled a series of housing bubbles like we did. But even Norway has a strong trading deal with the EU and is effectively in the Single Market.
4) Switzerland spent well over a decade negotiating a deep and wide set of agreements with the EU on everything from trade to scientific research.
5) Both Norway and Switzerland accept free movement of people and are in the Schengen group.
6) The overwhelming majority of economists and business leaders think a no deal exit will be catastrophic for our economy, both short term and long term.
7) Our Govt debt has absolutely nothing to do with membership of the EU. There were actually rules imposed on EU states limiting Govt deficits. (They we’re stupid and fortunately they were ignored when the Great Financial Crash occurred.)
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I personally find it interesting that people use an economic argument for staying within the EU.
Firstly the two richest countries in Europe are both outside of the EU (Norway and Switzerland), uk industry has been decimated and the national debt within the UK has dramatically increased since 1973.
There have only been 12 recessions since 1880, 8 have occurred since 1973 when we entered the EU.
This is true for most countries within the EU, as below, so please can somebody explain how the EU has benefited anybody financially?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/
I personally see a no deal benefiting Britian as it will lead to an increase in industry and the cheap gbp will encourage the export market.
Aidanstu
Difficult to know where to start with that but here’s an attempt.
1) There haven’t been 8 recessions in the UK since we joined the EEC/EU. There have been 5. None of them were in any way connected to our membership.
1973/74. Cause: A combination of the OPEC oil price hike, coming down off the Barber Boom and the Miners’ strike.
1975. A very brief second dip after the 73/74 recession.
1980/81. Cuts in Govt spending and huge increases in interest rates in the UK and USA in a deliberate attempt to squash inflation.
1990/91. US credit house crash combined with coming down from the madly overheating economy of 1988/89.
2008/09. The Global (mainly American) financial crash.
2) There were three Depressions in the earlier time period you highlighted, which caused economic carnage that you could not begin to imagine (1870-95, 1919-22 and 1930-33).
3) Norway is fantastically wealthy because for the past 40 years it has had as much oil as us, but it has a population smaller than Yorkshire. And they didn’t fritter the oil money away on tax cuts which fuelled a series of housing bubbles like we did. But even Norway has a strong trading deal with the EU and is effectively in the Single Market.
4) Switzerland spent well over a decade negotiating a deep and wide set of agreements with the EU on everything from trade to scientific research.
5) Both Norway and Switzerland accept free movement of people and are in the Schengen group.
6) The overwhelming majority of economists and business leaders think a no deal exit will be catastrophic for our economy, both short term and long term.
7) Our Govt debt has absolutely nothing to do with membership of the EU. There were actually rules imposed on EU states limiting Govt deficits. (They we’re stupid and fortunately they were ignored when the Great Financial Crash occurred.)
Thanks for the response. The 08/09 recession you refer to was actually a triple dip so I guess how you dress it up.
The recession in the early 1980’s was in part caused by the cheap imports and weakened pound so I’m not sure how you can say membership of the eu has nothing to do with national debt. I’m not arguing it is the sole cause but it clearly has an effect when the U.K. is a net contributor. I’m sure Greece would argue that the “bail out” France and Germany have them has contributed significantly to their national debt problems.
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Sprotty You get challenged because the "factoids" that you state are rarely if ever backed up by citations, they are just thought bubbles or something you have heard someone else say that was also made up also. It's this type of unsubstantiated garbage that put Britain in this position in the first place.
Sydney are you the gobshite programme seller if so desist from posting in this discussion you did a runner abandoning the uk good luck , but you do not have a say.
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I personally find it interesting that people use an economic argument for staying within the EU.
Firstly the two richest countries in Europe are both outside of the EU (Norway and Switzerland), uk industry has been decimated and the national debt within the UK has dramatically increased since 1973.
There have only been 12 recessions since 1880, 8 have occurred since 1973 when we entered the EU.
This is true for most countries within the EU, as below, so please can somebody explain how the EU has benefited anybody
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/
I personally see a no deal benefiting Britian as it will lead to an increase in industry and the cheap gbp will encourage the export market.
These 2 apparently richest countries have they chosen to toss the benefits of the CU & SM to one side , If not why not ?
Remind me how exactly the EU de- industrialised or rather caused the downturn in our heavy industries ?
I'm also intrigued how and why you think the UK economy grew to be the 6th largest economy in the world from those heady days when we had to get bale-outs from the IMF and were known as " the sick man of Europe " .
Did you also attend the same Comp as Sprotty ?
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None of those post 1970s recessions were caused by actions or policies directly attributable to the EU. I suggest you check your facts more closely . Nice try .
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Sprotty You get challenged because the "factoids" that you state are rarely if ever backed up by citations, they are just thought bubbles or something you have heard someone else say that was also made up also. It's this type of unsubstantiated garbage that put Britain in this position in the first place.
Sydney are you the gobshite programme seller if so desist from posting in this discussion you did a runner abandoning the uk good luck , but you do not have a say.
More uncorroborated factoids.
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The future is an unknown, How can I evidence the future, likewise all of the Nay Sayers on here do the same, people generally don't like change, that's one lesson I have learnt,I have a feeling that the same people posting to remain will be against any change in their workplace.
By the way when have I asked any body on here to produce their professional qualifications?
Sydney rover are you the gobby programme seller who used to come up into the South stand telling fish wives tales? If so you don't even have a say on here you broadcast quite openly that the country had gone to the Dogs and you were off to OZ.
As the Scots would say " it wouldn't be a case of Nay Sayers , more a case of ........Nay Money "
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Here are a couple of things backed up by facts:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/manchester-city-transfer-news-kevin-de-bruyne-new-contract-deal-a8120681.html
This I also put on the other thread about Wrexit.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/imf-christine-lagarde-brexit-uk-economy-assessment-forecasts-eu-referendum-forecasts-a8119886.html
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Sprotty You get challenged because the "factoids" that you state are rarely if ever backed up by citations, they are just thought bubbles or something you have heard someone else say that was also made up also. It's this type of unsubstantiated garbage that put Britain in this position in the first place.
Agreed these are called alternative facts , I'm sure Sprotty is being sincere when he quotes them and of course stores great faith in them.
However they aren't facts therefore it's not worth anyone getting involved in refuting them. He and others were led to believe much of the nonsense peddled out by Eurosceptic newspapers and of course the very expertly run Leave campaign who disseminated much of this nonsense for years.
Unfortunately we have very few institutions who can be relied upon to separate fact from fiction . That is why " expert " opinion had to be denounced by that campaign before , during and after the Truth is it has been poorly governed for the last century. The FPTP system whereby governments of one hue or the other spend half their time " unpicking " the programmes of the other. Government after government have wasted fortunes doing this and that has had NOTHING to do with the EU .
Health, Education, Housing, Social Policy, Policing, Justice, Defence, Foreign and Home Offices are all in a mess. I don't pretend that I have any answers but leaving the EU imo only exasperates the problems further as the economy that feeds ALL of those areas is damaged completely . Personally I doubt even we are that stupid and will align wherever possible to keep the Leavers happy and the whole population from saying " Enough ! "
Immigration is not THE problem as we have always coped with similar levels of immigration in the past . Besides most if not immigration has been proven to be beneficial to the economy. Yes they paid their Tax and National Insurance into the system as we all did so don't blame the lack of foresight on them because they have been paying in for up to 40 years - many leaving as healthily as they arrived and home to retire elsewhere in many cases and then becoming a burden on those societies and not here.
Once they have gone we will be in the shite big-time. Evidence is they are going and fewer are now even entertaining coming here.
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I personally find it interesting that people use an economic argument for staying within the EU.
Firstly the two richest countries in Europe are both outside of the EU (Norway and Switzerland), uk industry has been decimated and the national debt within the UK has dramatically increased since 1973.
There have only been 12 recessions since 1880, 8 have occurred since 1973 when we entered the EU.
This is true for most countries within the EU, as below, so please can somebody explain how the EU has benefited anybody financially?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/
I personally see a no deal benefiting Britian as it will lead to an increase in industry and the cheap gbp will encourage the export market.
Aidanstu
Difficult to know where to start with that but here’s an attempt.
1) There haven’t been 8 recessions in the UK since we joined the EEC/EU. There have been 5. None of them were in any way connected to our membership.
1973/74. Cause: A combination of the OPEC oil price hike, coming down off the Barber Boom and the Miners’ strike.
1975. A very brief second dip after the 73/74 recession.
1980/81. Cuts in Govt spending and huge increases in interest rates in the UK and USA in a deliberate attempt to squash inflation.
1990/91. US credit house crash combined with coming down from the madly overheating economy of 1988/89.
2008/09. The Global (mainly American) financial crash.
2) There were three Depressions in the earlier time period you highlighted, which caused economic carnage that you could not begin to imagine (1870-95, 1919-22 and 1930-33).
3) Norway is fantastically wealthy because for the past 40 years it has had as much oil as us, but it has a population smaller than Yorkshire. And they didn’t fritter the oil money away on tax cuts which fuelled a series of housing bubbles like we did. But even Norway has a strong trading deal with the EU and is effectively in the Single Market.
4) Switzerland spent well over a decade negotiating a deep and wide set of agreements with the EU on everything from trade to scientific research.
5) Both Norway and Switzerland accept free movement of people and are in the Schengen group.
6) The overwhelming majority of economists and business leaders think a no deal exit will be catastrophic for our economy, both short term and long term.
7) Our Govt debt has absolutely nothing to do with membership of the EU. There were actually rules imposed on EU states limiting Govt deficits. (They we’re stupid and fortunately they were ignored when the Great Financial Crash occurred.)
Thanks for the response. The 08/09 recession you refer to was actually a triple dip so I guess how you dress it up.
The recession in the early 1980’s was in part caused by the cheap imports and weakened pound so I’m not sure how you can say membership of the eu has nothing to do with national debt. I’m not arguing it is the sole cause but it clearly has an effect when the U.K. is a net contributor. I’m sure Greece would argue that the “bail out” France and Germany have them has contributed significantly to their national debt problems.
Aidanstu
I’m sorry but you are simply wrong on every point.
1) The 08/09 recession was not a triple dip recession. True, we had a recovery which staggered slowly but we didn’t dip back into recession. And in any case, that was down to the decisions of our own Govt to slash Govt spending whilst the private sector was still struggling. Nothing to do with the EU.
2) The recession of 80/81 was nothing whatsoever to do with cheap imports from the EU. It WAS partially due to a weak pound, but that wasn’t connected to our membership of the EU.
The root cause of the 80/81 recession is simple and uncontested. Inflation had been rising for 20 years or so. By the 1970s we had a feedback loop. High inflation led to strikes for high wages to match. High wages pushed up costs and led to higher inflation. Thatcher attempted to smash this loop by cutting Govt spending and massively increasing interest rates. That deliberately weakened the economy so that employers couldn’t pay higher wages (and because unemployment rocketed, the unions were in a weaker position to press for higher wages). Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU. It actually mirrored a very similar policy in the USA.
3) The strength of the pound and cost of imports has nothing at all to do with national debt.
4) Greece’s situation was certainly to do with the mistake in joining the Euro which gave them a strong currency and access to cheap credit. That has nothing whatsoever to do with our membership of the EU.
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The vote result in Catalonia for being an independent state from Spain will send a shock through the powers that be in Brussels.
The elite in the E.U. and the Spanish government have thrown everything at this, and thought they would come out the victors with a vote to remain part of mainstream Spain.
Italy next anyone?
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The vote result in Catalonia for being an independent state from Spain will send a shock through the powers that be in Brussels.
The elite in the E.U. and the Spanish government have thrown everything at this, and thought they would come out the victors with a vote to remain part of mainstream Spain.
Italy next anyone?
They may want independence from Spain but they will still be part of Europe.
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The vote result in Catalonia for being an independent state from Spain will send a shock through the powers that be in Brussels.
The elite in the E.U. and the Spanish government have thrown everything at this, and thought they would come out the victors with a vote to remain part of mainstream Spain.
Italy next anyone?
They may want independence from Spain but they will still be part of Europe.
If they did gain full independence from Spain Catalonia would have to apply for membership of the EU.
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The vote result in Catalonia for being an independent state from Spain will send a shock through the powers that be in Brussels.
The elite in the E.U. and the Spanish government have thrown everything at this, and thought they would come out the victors with a vote to remain part of mainstream Spain.
Italy next anyone?
Can't see it being Italy, but the Polish and Hungarian governments are increasingly at loggerheads with the EU. Watch this space, as they say.
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The vote result in Catalonia for being an independent state from Spain will send a shock through the powers that be in Brussels.
The elite in the E.U. and the Spanish government have thrown everything at this, and thought they would come out the victors with a vote to remain part of mainstream Spain.
Italy next anyone?
They may want independence from Spain but they will still be part of Europe.
If they did gain full independence from Spain Catalonia would have to apply for membership of the EU.
I have yet to see any mention of the rest of Catalonia - the French bit of it.
Surely those people would then crave to be back living in their true homeland.
Catalans Dragons based in Perpignan says it all really
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The vote result in Catalonia for being an independent state from Spain will send a shock through the powers that be in Brussels.
The elite in the E.U. and the Spanish government have thrown everything at this, and thought they would come out the victors with a vote to remain part of mainstream Spain.
Italy next anyone?
What have the EU thrown at this please put a link to this help or are you just imagining it ?
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The vote result in Catalonia for being an independent state from Spain will send a shock through the powers that be in Brussels.
The elite in the E.U. and the Spanish government have thrown everything at this, and thought they would come out the victors with a vote to remain part of mainstream Spain.
Italy next anyone?
Can't see it being Italy, but the Polish and Hungarian governments are increasingly at loggerheads with the EU. Watch this space, as they say.
That's because both are seriously undermining democratic norms in their country. Orban in Hungary in particular is a would-be fascist dictator (and I don't use that term lightly). If the EU can be criticised at all in those cases, it's for not acting quickly and strongly enough.
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I personally find it interesting that people use an economic argument for staying within the EU.
Firstly the two richest countries in Europe are both outside of the EU (Norway and Switzerland), uk industry has been decimated and the national debt within the UK has dramatically increased since 1973.
There have only been 12 recessions since 1880, 8 have occurred since 1973 when we entered the EU.
This is true for most countries within the EU, as below, so please can somebody explain how the EU has benefited anybody financially?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-crisis-not-just-greece-drowning-debt/
I personally see a no deal benefiting Britian as it will lead to an increase in industry and the cheap gbp will encourage the export market.
Something I missed pointing out earlier.
I assume you don't know that, between us joining the EU in 1973 and the Brexit vote, our economy increased 15.6 fold. The Swiss economy over the same period increased 14 fold. So, despite us being the Sick Man of Europe in the 1960s and early 70s, and despite Switzerland being put forward as a model economy outside the EU, we had stronger economic growth for 40 years than they did. Until we decided to commit economic suicide 18 months ago...
In the 13 years before we joined the EEC (that's all the data I have), our economy grew by 2.7 fold and the Swiss economy grew 5 fold.
Sounds like an open and shut case to me. For a long time before we joined the EEC/EU, or economy did much worse than the Swiss. Between joining the EU and the Brexit vote, our economy did marginally better than the Swiss.