Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: hoolahoop on December 14, 2017, 10:14:37 am
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I was surprised to see democracy at last swing into action but more surprised that I am the first to comment on it . Sovereignty back at last with Parliament and not the Government's Front Bench where it has upto ūnow been driven by 40 or so rabid Brexitters and the Tory Press.
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If May and her omnishambles slink back with a really shit deal, I bet those who are calling the rebels 'traitors' now will be bloody grateful that Parliament will have their say on it.
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While I think on balance it's a good thing that Parliament will vote on the final deal, I can see it causing major problems if they reject it. What happens then? UK ministers will be mandated to renegotiate, but will the EU wish to do so? Also will it be clear which parts of the deal Parliament wishes to be renegotiated?
Actually it makes the prospect of "No Deal" all the more likely.
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While I think on balance it's a good thing that Parliament will vote on the final deal, I can see it causing major problems if they reject it. What happens then? UK ministers will be mandated to renegotiate, but will the EU wish to do so? Also will it be clear which parts of the deal Parliament wishes to be renegotiated?
Actually it makes the prospect of "No Deal" all the more likely.
If they had rejected the amendment and a year down the line the Government came back with a deal keeping us inside both the CU & SM with an annual payment for Euratom, Drugs Agency etc etc. Would the Brexiters be happy with a vote then ? - I'm absolutely sure they would !
This amendment is sensible, gives breathing space and allows OUR Parliament to have the same rights to challenge as the other 27 have with Barniers negotiation team .
Where did sovereignty go all of a sudden . I see the Daily Mail is up to its old tricks in much the same way as it behaved with our High and Supreme Court judges . They should be hauled in front of a judge in view of the behaviour they could incite that brought about the death of Jo Cox , the villification of Gina Miller , Diane Abbot et al - its disgraceful frankly .
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I agree with the first part of your post TRB but disagree with the second part. What the vote last night did was make 'No Deal' all but impossible.
Parliament now gets the final say on any deal. Therefore there is no point in Mrs May taking any deal to Parliament that she knows wont get through Parliament. So in order to know what Parliament wants to see in the deal - she has to discuss and negotiate with it before she puts it to Brussels.
So although that vote was technically on the details of the final deal - it is actually on who gets to draft up the British terms for that deal and what sort of deal it is.
If we say that staying in is (currently) off the table there are 3 possible types of deal she can go for:
1.No deal - favoured only by about 30 or 40 hard Brexiteers
2.Full alignment with the single market & customs union in an EFTA, Norway, Switzerland style deal - the policy of the Labour Party and those 'soft' Tories who voted against the government last night
3.A limited Canada style free trade agreement - the government's currently stated policy
So I think rather than 'no deal', last night's vote actually makes a 'staying in in all but name' more likely - if Mrs May wants a deal she can get through Parliament.
It also makes next weeks vote even more interesting, especially for Hoola. At the moment we have told the EU we are leaving in March 2019 but there is nothing in British law to say that. Hence why the government & Brexiteers want the date & time of leaving in the Withdrawal Act. If Parliament reject that - then we haven't left until this deal with EU is completed!
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Actually, Wilts your point about setting the date in stone is important. If the Government is defeated, or more likely backs down, then our leaving date does become more flexible, at least from our side.
It's unclear how the EU will react to things dragging on. I suppose it depends whether they want us in, out or half in and half out.
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I agree with the first part of your post TRB but disagree with the second part. What the vote last night did was make 'No Deal' all but impossible.
Parliament now gets the final say on any deal. Therefore there is no point in Mrs May taking any deal to Parliament that she knows wont get through Parliament. So in order to know what Parliament wants to see in the deal - she has to discuss and negotiate with it before she puts it to Brussels.
So although that vote was technically on the details of the final deal - it is actually on who gets to draft up the British terms for that deal and what sort of deal it is.
If we say that staying in is (currently) off the table there are 3 possible types of deal she can go for:
1.No deal - favoured only by about 30 or 40 hard Brexiteers
2.Full alignment with the single market & customs union in an EFTA, Norway, Switzerland style deal - the policy of the Labour Party and those 'soft' Tories who voted against the government last night
3.A limited Canada style free trade agreement - the government's currently stated policy
So I think rather than 'no deal', last night's vote actually makes a 'staying in in all but name' more likely - if Mrs May wants a deal she can get through Parliament.
It also makes next weeks vote even more interesting, especially for Hoola. At the moment we have told the EU we are leaving in March 2019 but there is nothing in British law to say that. Hence why the government & Brexiteers want the date & time of leaving in the Withdrawal Act. If Parliament reject that - then we haven't left until this deal with EU is completed!
Thank you Wilts but I am retiring soon so hope to be Brexiting as soon as my partner catches me up a bit ( she's younger ). I will cash in along with her and move to Europe ; I have no intention of remaining here unless my health deteriorates further. I suppose it's easier for us we have no living parents to worry about, a daughter at the University of Copenhagen next year bar any mishap with results/ application. Both She and her mates at uni are all looking to move to Europe taking their skills with them .
They want none of this .
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Actually, Wilts your point about setting the date in stone is important. If the Government is defeated, or more likely backs down, then our leaving date does become more flexible, at least from our side.
It's unclear how the EU will react to things dragging on. I suppose it depends whether they want us in, out or half in and half out.
I think they will want us half in but Brexiters won't - their futures are with Trump as I see it.
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I agree with the assessment from Wilts, but with one further consideration......the possibility that this fragile government will collapse in the meantime.
What changes would follow from an early election remains to be seen. Maybot is clinging on with the support of the DUP, and despite wide divisions in her own party, all of which could implode at any time.
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I agree with the assessment from Wilts, but with one further consideration......the possibility that this fragile government will collapse in the meantime.
What changes would follow from an early election remains to be seen. Maybot is clinging on with the support of the DUP, and despite wide divisions in her own party, all of which could implode at any time.
In which case it'll be a good safeguard against whatever stripe of government ends up concluding the negotiations.
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I agree with the assessment from Wilts, but with one further consideration......the possibility that this fragile government will collapse in the meantime.
What changes would follow from an early election remains to be seen. Maybot is clinging on with the support of the DUP, and despite wide divisions in her own party, all of which could implode at any time.
I agree Albie, in fact one bookmaker was offering 5/6 that May would go as PM during 2018.
If Parliament rejected May's deal I'm pretty sure she would feel compelled to resign. That could precipitate a General Election. And if she comes back with what the Tory Brexiteers consider a bad deal she might be removed anyway.
It did strike me that Juncker and Tusk were trying hard to praise May last week. Whatever they think of her they would probably prefer not to have to deal with another PM.
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I agree with the assessment from Wilts, but with one further consideration......the possibility that this fragile government will collapse in the meantime.
What changes would follow from an early election remains to be seen. Maybot is clinging on with the support of the DUP, and despite wide divisions in her own party, all of which could implode at any time.
I agree Albie, in fact one bookmaker was offering 5/6 that May would go as PM during 2018.
If Parliament rejected May's deal I'm pretty sure she would feel compelled to resign. That could precipitate a General Election. And if she comes back with what the Tory Brexiteers consider a bad deal she might be removed anyway.
It did strike me that Juncker and Tusk were trying hard to praise May last week. Whatever they think of her they would probably prefer not to have to deal with another PM.
I think you're right , it would be extremely difficult for them to restart negotiations without that fool Davis in front of them.
A new regime would probably have a different team " fronting it " - it would be almost impossible for negotiations to begin . This is definitely a blow to May and an important part of what she saw as the process going unhindered, that is why they fought tooth and nail to oppose Amendment 7.
Attempts to alter it at Report stage is unlikely to go down well either with either the HofC or Lords - she is stuffed
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It did strike me that Juncker and Tusk were trying hard to praise May last week. Whatever they think of her they would probably prefer not to have to deal with another PM.
Well aye. They are both Centre-Right politicians. They inevitably prefer one of their own in No10. Even a quite magnificently incompetent one.
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It did strike me that Juncker and Tusk were trying hard to praise May last week. Whatever they think of her they would probably prefer not to have to deal with another PM.
Well aye. They are both Centre-Right politicians. They inevitably prefer one of their own in No10. Even a quite magnificently incompetent one.
As the alternatives are either a right wing Brexiteer (Johnson, Gove, Davis) or a left wing Brexiteer who won't come out of the closet (Corbyn) you can also see why they might prefer to deal with May.
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There’s no right wing Brexiteer alternative. Because they could never carry a vote in the Commons. And there is little prospect of a Hard Brexit Tory party winning an Election.
As for Labour, the Party might well be led by a man who could hardly get his kecks on quickly enough to rush out in front of the cameras to declare that “Article 50 must be invoked immediately” at 7am the day after the Brexit vote, but the party has pretty much ignored his lead and is being steered by Keir Starmer.
I suspect there’d be a far more sensible approach to the divorce if Labour were in power and negotiating.
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There’s no right wing Brexiteer alternative. Because they could never carry a vote in the Commons. And there is little prospect of a Hard Brexit Tory party winning an Election.
As for Labour, the Party might well be led by a man who could hardly get his kecks on quickly enough to rush out in front of the cameras to declare that “Article 50 must be invoked immediately” at 7am the day after the Brexit vote, but the party has pretty much ignored his lead and is being steered by Keir Starmer.
I suspect there’d be a far more sensible approach to the divorce if Labour were in power and negotiating.
Agree with you Billy , Starmer is quite clearly running the show and that suits Corbyn and Mc Donnell down to the ground for now . Have to say here that Pennycock seems a very able member of the team too.
The longer it is before Corbyn is forced to break cover the better , he is quite clearly easily rattled in the Chamber and better left to the simple stuff for now .
It is absolutely fascinating how this will unfold . Soon we will have that vision.....no hiding places from here on in
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Read your last sentence and all I can think about is methadone.
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Read your last sentence and all I can think about is methadone.
I wonder if the caller in this clip was on something similar....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-supporter-vote-leave-eu-lack-white-faces-hospital-james-obrien-lbc-northwick-park-a8099561.html
or maybe just racist. Sadly, I know a few people who think the same as that caller, and voted leave because of it. :facepalm:
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Did any one watch BBC Question Time from Barnsley last night? There’s a man on there pointing out that in the referendum he was asked ‘remain’ or ‘leave’ and not a supplementary leave question, should that be hard or a soft leave. He made a strong issue of his frustration of the poor leave negotiating and the weak leadership you’re showing the rest of us.
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DD
And there’s the issue. The referendum question was idiotic.
As I’ve said before, it was like having a vote on whether to go on holiday or not. If the vote is to go on holiday, that’s barely scratched the surface of the real decision. There are dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions of possible holidays. Just like there are a huge number of different Brexits.
“Brexit” isn’t a cast iron thing, just like “holiday” isn’t a cast iron thing. Anyone who complains “why haven’t we left”, frankly hasn’t got a clue about the issue. Just like anyone who says “Brexit means Brexit” should be strung up from a lamppost for insulting the public’s intelligence. “Brexit” means absolutely nothing whatsoever, just like “holiday” means nothing.
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Read your last sentence and all I can think about is methadone.
I wonder if the caller in this clip was on something similar....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-supporter-vote-leave-eu-lack-white-faces-hospital-james-obrien-lbc-northwick-park-a8099561.html
or maybe just racist. Sadly, I know a few people who think the same as that caller, and voted leave because of it. :facepalm:
Don't you just love it when someone insists they're not racist even when they come out with stuff like that?
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On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN. I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market. They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.
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On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN. I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market. They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.
You don't know that nor does anybody else. Because the electorate wasn't asked that.
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On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN. I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market. They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.
Certainly quite a number of Tory MPs would be comfortable with the UK staying in the Single Market. There is, of course, a small group that is very vocal about it. However, the Manifesto at the June GE was clear about leaving the SM and Customs Union. With each passing day it looks more likely that we will agree to stay in both. That won't feel much like Brexit to a lot of people who voted Leave. Therefore I foresee a lot of anger directed at politicians and the political process down the line.
Maybe one answer is a Second Referendum, although that would smack to Leave voters of having to vote until you get the result "they" want.
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Read your last sentence and all I can think about is methadone.
Changed don't want you running down to your dealer ;)
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Read your last sentence and all I can think about is methadone.
I wonder if the caller in this clip was on something similar....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-supporter-vote-leave-eu-lack-white-faces-hospital-james-obrien-lbc-northwick-park-a8099561.html
or maybe just racist. Sadly, I know a few people who think the same as that caller, and voted leave because of it. :facepalm:
Sadly I have friends (?) who think the same.
Whilst I am writing this I have just had confirmation that my daughter has qualified for a year studying at the University of Copenhagen .......gunna be spending some time in the EU next year, flat hunting and spending some money .
So far 5 of them are confirmed for study abroad in Denmark under the Erasmus + scheme. We risk limiting the prospects of future generations. Sorry I know that this isn't really relevant to the thread but wanted to tell someone - obviously not those friends (?) because they will only say " why would she want to go there , they're all furriners oh and what will she be able to eat etc ? "
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Very good news your daughter qualified to study in Copenhagen Hoola but I must warn you it’s more expensive than Dublin!
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Very good news your daughter qualified to study in Copenhagen Hoola but I must warn you it’s more expensive than Dublin!
Thanks DD that's what I thought but fortunately have squirelled away money for this eventuality. She came back about 4 weeks ago and I always felt I was going to have to use money for this purpose. I'm trying to help her be as egrerious as possible and to keep an open- mind about the world. I never wanted her to think that the limits of her world should just be our beautiful island.
This year alone she has been to Ibiza, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, Budapest and toured the cities of Northern Italy.
Once my pension pot has gone it's gone but to a good cause and not to a council care home sometime in the future.
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Congratulations to your Daughter, Hoola, you must be well pleased as indeed must she. What a great opportunity not only to expand her education but to also experience and learn from other cultures. :thumbsup:
I have friends who voted 'leave' "for the benefit of their children and grandchildren". Ironic isn't it, that by doing so they are denying, or at least making difficult, such opportunities your daughter is able to enjoy.
I genuinely do wonder how they think leave will be of benefit to our younger generations.
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Actually, Wilts your point about setting the date in stone is important. If the Government is defeated, or more likely backs down, then our leaving date does become more flexible, at least from our side.
It's unclear how the EU will react to things dragging on. I suppose it depends whether they want us in, out or half in and half out.
It seems the Government has compromised on the exit date. 29th March 2019 remains in the Bill but can easily be changed. The Tory rebels seem to have accepted it.
Strikes me as a sensible compromise, but from the Government's point of view they avoid another damaging defeat.
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Congratulations to your Daughter, Hoola, you must be well pleased as indeed must she. What a great opportunity not only to expand her education but to also experience and learn from other cultures. :thumbsup:
I have friends who voted 'leave' "for the benefit of their children and grandchildren". Ironic isn't it, that by doing so they are denying, or at least making difficult, such opportunities your daughter is able to enjoy.
I genuinely do wonder how they think leave will be of benefit to our younger generations.
Thank you NNK , I wonder if they do certainly the lads and lasses at Leeds Uni can't wait to get a degree with international on it - 100s are baling out I've just seen a list on the net ; it's great to see all these youngsters literally going all over the world . Many are going to " English speaking " countries especially it seems Canada and Australia as well as all over the EU - the concensus is they are looking for careers and contacts abroad in numbers !! Many applicants on the list never got allocated places although they had qualified which is a shame .
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Some excuses to wander around the bars in the old harbour 😎
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On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN. I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market. They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.
Go on then DD.
Does that mean we should be out of the Customs Union?
The Single Market?
Euratom?
Erasmus?
The ERC?
EASA?
SES?
ECAA?
ECHA?
Every single one of those agreements means us giving up a certain amount of “control of our sovereignty”. But every one yields certain benefits.
What do you think? Should we “take back control” and walk out of all of this agreements?
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Actually, Wilts your point about setting the date in stone is important. If the Government is defeated, or more likely backs down, then our leaving date does become more flexible, at least from our side.
It's unclear how the EU will react to things dragging on. I suppose it depends whether they want us in, out or half in and half out.
It seems the Government has compromised on the exit date. 29th March 2019 remains in the Bill but can easily be changed. The Tory rebels seem to have accepted it.
Strikes me as a sensible compromise, but from the Government's point of view they avoid another damaging defeat.
Yes but it will still be another fudge really . Personally I can see why they feel the need to appease ardent Brexiters who may feel let down by the phase1 concessions though.
It has to be remembered that although the BBC / Sky commentators talk as if phase1 has been signed , sealed and delivered ; there still remain many unanswered questions and areas of contention especially on the meaning of ' divergence ' and of course "
borders " in relation to N. Ireland .
The so called " implementation " ( why the need to change the wording ? ) period will need sorting out in detail especially the role of the ECJ . Why the problem with this , is it because like Euratom it contains the word European ?
It is rather bizarre watching debate after debate berating the ECJ without once hearing 1 solitary reason why this should be a problem during transition again is it because of the reason above .
I thought we hadn't left Europe and wanted a " deep and special relationship " - the constant slagging off of this court can't be going down well amongst the member states or for that matter their judiciary. Are we saying we don't trust the European judiciary and again why ?
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On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN. I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market. They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.
The ridiculous thing is we DO have sovereignty although the Govt. says that we " don't feel as though we have " - we clearly have otherwise we wouldn't be coming out of it arbitrarily .
On the other point , we have far more power over our immigration than we care to admit but we don't exercise it - the problem lies here and we still have to resolve our attitudes as a nation to what is to ññmany people a totally necessary evil.
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On the contrary BST i think like the man from Barnsley said last night the vote was clearly OUT of Europe or stay IN. I didn’t vote but the main issues concerning people was to regain UK sovereignty and take control of immigration and that seemed simple enough but what’s happening now is the whole negotiation is being conducted by a political party, with a weak mandate, in which a majority would wish to remain in the single market. They will ignore the wishes of the majority of the UK electorate at their very peril come the next GE.
Go on then DD.
Does that mean we should be out of the Customs Union?
The Single Market?
Euratom?
Erasmus?
The ERC?
EASA?
SES?
ECAA?
ECHA?
Every single one of those agreements means us giving up a certain amount of “control of our sovereignty”. But every one yields certain benefits.
What do you think? Should we “take back control” and walk out of all of this agreements?
Yes if it has the word " European " in the title - quite a sad and inward way of thinking especially as we continue to profess that " we are leaving the EU but NOT Europe ". The whole exercise is nonsensical, wasteful , gut wrenching and sickening !
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I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc
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Jesus wept.
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Jesus wept.
Agreed. Some people really don't understand Brexit at all!
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I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc
I voted out, but really?
Is Nigeria an EU enclave, or did you just fail your O level geography?
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And people wonder why Remainers are pissed off.
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I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc
Sprotyrover.....oh forget it , was that really what you based your vote on ?
This is just one of those Commonwealth countries that we would wish to have a Free Trade deal with post- Brexit and yes like India they would probably want free movement with us too !
I hear people in the media and Parliament stating " that everyone knew what they were voted for " .
Guess what your post totally disproves that theory !
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And people wonder why Remainers are pissed off.
This is just one of those reasons . I bet there are many many millions of these circulating out there . Even this theory is so far out of the box that I can't on this occasion blame The Daily Fail, Ex- Press or Currant Bun
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I have kept my thoughts to a minimum on the Exit from the Eu.however I did not vote but my thoughts are OUT.
It's simply down to the future of my Grand Kids, the one frightening statistic for me is this: in 1972 when I was forced to study Africa for my O level the population of Nigerian was 85 million, ot is now 170 Million and by 2050 will be 450 million. That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc
Sproty, I really hate to break this to you but us leaving the EU almost certainly means that the chances of having to accept increased immigration from countries such as Nigeria will go up. The reason being that the price that we will have to pay as we seek to negotiate bilateral trade deals outside of the EU bloc will, in all likelihood, require a significant concession on freedom of movement/granting of visas to the citizens of those nations that we seek to build increased trade links with. One of which will be Nigeria.
If you really want to put the walls up against immigration there's always the North Korean model...
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Are we talking about the Nigeria which is seen as an emerging economic powerhouse?
The one which is forecast to have the fastest economic growth of any large economy over the next 30 years?
The one that, by 2050, is forecast to have an economy 50% larger than ours?
Why exactly would millions of Nigerians be queueing up to hide in lorries and get to Britain?
So. Nice one Sproty. You’re a perfect example of the ignorant bigotry that has bequeathed your grandkids a poorer and nastier country.
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Billy a country with a population of 450 million should have a economy 7 times larger than ours, so in reality their GDP will be approx 25 % of ours! Except the Sahara will have eaten away another third of the arable land in Nigeria, oh and they are only one small part of the problem you got a Dozen other Sub sarahan countries in the pooh,the only thing they do productily is increase in population.
Please tell me why I'm a bigot,I have never belittled you on this forum?
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Big H I agree but we wil be in charge of who we let in, not some silly house wife in Berlin,the Mediterranean is about to become a swimming pool and the Eu which traditionally under spends on Defence will expect the U.K. To put the shoulder to the cart.
We are getting out at the right time mark my words, those Syrian fuguees Angie let in 2 years ago will soon be able to claim Eu passports, how many of them are sleepers ? Nobody knows but we do know some are! Also the 700 idiots who bogged off to the 'Promised land' can also sneak back in,the EU was a nice cosy little club 30 years ago today that isn't the case.
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Anyway back to Geography I was one of 12 out of 120 who passed the Africa Geography 'O' level. And hey in 1973 I recall my Geography master telling the class how all of those ex colonial African Ountries would by the millennium have better economies than our own!
And Billy the same will be the case with Nigeria. Zimbabwe gone from being the beadbasket of Africa to being the Basket case! Need I go on?
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Update for Billy, the Uk is expected to have a population of 77 million in 2050 so Niegerians will have 18 % income per head of population compared to a U.K. Citizen so for every £100 we earn they will earn £18!
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Sproty
You use a phrase like “That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc” about the people who are putting together one of the most dynamic economies on earth and you are surprised at that attitude being described as bigoted ignorance? Really?
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Who cares what the population of Nigeria is? Whether it's 170 million or 1 trillion, leaving the EU will have no affect the UK's ability to control migration from there.
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Big H I agree but we wil be in charge of who we let in, not some silly house wife in Berlin,the Mediterranean is about to become a swimming pool and the Eu which traditionally under spends on Defence will expect the U.K. To put the shoulder to the cart.
We are getting out at the right time mark my words, those Syrian fuguees Angie let in 2 years ago will soon be able to claim Eu passports, how many of them are sleepers ? Nobody knows but we do know some are! Also the 700 idiots who bogged off to the 'Promised land' can also sneak back in,the EU was a nice cosy little club 30 years ago today that isn't the case.
Do you seriously think that leaving the EU will change our ability to decide who we let in from Nigeria one jot? Seriously??
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Sproty
You use a phrase like “That sea of humanity trying to get to our green and pleasant lant will increase and we need to have control of our own borders to prevent the break down of our, housing, education, Health care,Jobs market,culture etc” about the people who are putting together one of the most dynamic economies on earth and you are surprised at that attitude being described as bigoted ignorance? Really?
Billy if you want to give somebody your Bank account details so they can be used to free up a million ton oil tanker stuck on a sandbank off Lagos so be it.
By 2050 Nigeria will go the same way as all of those other mirCle economies,on its fat backside. You clearly lack an understanding of the world outside of the Labour Party meeting room at Denaby club and your Maths is appalling. Explain the maths about the wonderful Nigerian economy and I might take credence whatever else you have to say on the subject.
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Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.
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Sproty
PriceWaterhouseCooper predict that by 2050, the Nigerian GDP per capita will be higher than the current levels in China, India, Indonesia, Brazil and Turkey, and not far short of Russia’s current level. And growing. Fast.
The PWC report says “Nigeria could become one of the world’s leading economies by 2030, with further progress by 2050. Nigeria’s potential advantages for future growth include a large consumer market, a strategic geographic location, and a young and highly entrepreneurial population.
“Overall, Nigeria continues to be an attractive place to invest not because it is an oil producer, but because of the immense size of its domestic market and the extraordinary commercial energy of its people, which remains largely untapped.”
The people whose job it is is to make money from investment opportunities see a highly entrepreneurial population with extraordinary commercial energy.
You, in the other hand, see a sea of humanity desperate to cheat their way into our country and sponge off hard working Brits. You see a few e-mail scammers and assume that defines an entire nation.
You announce that Nigeria will collapse, not grow. On what evidence? How else am I supposed to read that but as bigotry? Why should Nigeria not be able to grow it’s way out of poverty in the way that China, India, Vietnam, Turkey, Indonesia and Brazil have been doing for the past 30 years? Or in the way that we, France and Holland did in the 1700s? Or Germany and Italy in the 1800s? Or Spain in the 1900s? Or much of Eastern Europe in the past few decades?
Why are we special why Nigeria is inevitably a basket case?
Point?
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Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.
the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigotry
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Sproty
PriceWaterhouseCooper predict that by 2050, the Nigerian GDP per capita will be higher than the current levels in China, India, Indonesia, Brazil and Turkey, and not far short of Russia’s current level. And growing. Fast.
The PWC report says “Nigeria could become one of the world’s leading economies by 2030, with further progress by 2050. Nigeria’s potential advantages for future growth include a large consumer market, a strategic geographic location, and a young and highly entrepreneurial population.
“Overall, Nigeria continues to be an attractive place to invest not because it is an oil producer, but because of the immense size of its domestic market and the extraordinary commercial energy of its people, which remains largely untapped.”
The people whose job it is is to make money from investment opportunities see a highly entrepreneurial population with extraordinary commercial energy.
You, in the other hand, see a sea of humanity desperate to cheat their way into our country and sponge off hard working Brits. You see a few e-mail scammers and assume that defines an entire nation.
You announce that Nigeria will collapse, not grow. On what evidence? How else am I supposed to read that but as bigotry? Why should Nigeria not be able to grow it’s way out of poverty in the way that China, India, Vietnam, Turkey, Indonesia and Brazil have been doing for the past 30 years? Or in the way that we, France and Holland did in the 1700s? Or Germany and Italy in the 1800s? Or Spain in the 1900s? Or much of Eastern Europe in the past few decades?
Why are we special why Nigeria is inevitably a basket case?
Point?
You have not proved your point, how will Nigeria be a better place in 2050??
It will have doubled the size of its economy but the population will have increased by 125% can you explain how it will be a better place to live?
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Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.
the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigotry
Nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, so I'm a racist now am I ?
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Oh and Billy stop using that word Bigotry it refers to someone who is intolerant to the views of others, go look in the mirror if you want to see what a Bigot look looks like.
the fact of having and expressing strong, unreasonable beliefs and disliking other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/bigotry
Nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, so I'm a racist now am I ?
So quoting an online dictionary - without expressing an opinion one way or another (so where the hell has the accusation of me calling you a racist has come from FFS?? Get fecked for coming out with that beauty.) so that people can make their own minds up about Billy's use of the word 'bigotry' is 'crawling out from under a stone' is it? Now who's being intolerent, eh?
PS I'm still waiting to find out how us leaving the EU has any effect on how we regulate immigration from Nigeria. You obviously know something the rest of us don't understand so why not educate us all?
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Sproty
No. It won’t have doubled the size of its economy. If the projections are correct, it will have increased the size of its economy by more than 6 fold by 2050, and increased its GDP per capita (ie living standards) by more than 3 fold.
Why don’t YOU look at the numbers instead of throwing out idle, out of date criticisms?
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When did I say I had any such idea? When I googled bigotry I got a different answer to you, because you googled putting the word racist in front,stirring the pot as usual eh ?
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Sproty
No. It won’t have doubled the size of its economy. If the projections are correct, it will have increased the size of its economy by more than 6 fold by 2050, and increased its GDP per capita (ie living standards) by more than 3 fold.
Why don’t YOU look at the numbers instead of throwing out idle, out of date criticisms?
We can re visit this subject in 2050 , if the History of post colonial African continue to repeat itself,I will be vindicated.
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When did I say I had any such idea? When I googled bigotry I got a different answer to you, because you googled putting the word racist in front,stirring the pot as usual eh ?
Complete b*llocks as usual. I used the words 'bigotry definition'. So you can shove the word 'racist' back up the orifice of yours you plucked it from. I can only assume you used it in Google search out of a guilty conscience.
Or more likely that you're the one deliberately stirring the shit as usual, given that using the words 'bigotry' and 'racist' in Google don't provide any link to the one I got the definition from. So you're crap at lying to get out of the corner you paint yourself into as well. Even more so when the link I gave doesn't mention the word 'racism' at all either.
Still waiting to be educated as to how leaving the EU will affect how we treat immigration from Nigeria!
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If you look at your original post and read the link you put on there you will see where I am coming from. Now crawl back under your stone or say something constructive by way of a change
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Sproty
No. It won’t have doubled the size of its economy. If the projections are correct, it will have increased the size of its economy by more than 6 fold by 2050, and increased its GDP per capita (ie living standards) by more than 3 fold.
Why don’t YOU look at the numbers instead of throwing out idle, out of date criticisms?
We can re visit this subject in 2050 , if the History of post colonial African continue to repeat itself,I will be vindicated.
Sproty
It’s literally impossible to argue with you if that’s the approach you take. I’m giving you reasoned projections from a company whose job it is to study these issues (there’s similar figures available from McKinsey too).
So, where we’ve got to is that you support Leave because of a threat that has nothing to do with the EU and is based on an assessment of yours that ignores easily accessible data and analysis. And your support of Leave also ignores huge amounts of other reasoned argument which predicts that the grandkids you are trying to protect from this phantom are actually going to be significantly poorer precisely because of Brexit.
Can you see how that comes across?
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Yes let’s agree to disagree
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Problem being, that your decision is also going to leave MY kids considerably worse off too.
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If you look at your original post and read the link you put on there you will see where I am coming from. Now crawl back under your stone or say something constructive by way of a change
You mean the original post and link that makes no mention of race, colour or creed whatsoever?
Is accusing someone of calling you a racist when you know it's completely untrue the lowest you will go to to deflect from the contect your own posts or are there any further depths for you to plumb?
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I have had many arguments and disagreements over the years with Sproty on this forum where I thought he was factually wrong or misguided but what I would never ever say from any of those exchanges is that I have ever thought he was racist. Nor have my views on that changed from anything he has written in this post. Misguided yes, and maybe a bit naive for choosing a single black african country for his point, but that doesnt make him a racist.
Actually I think he is pretty typical of what I have been saying about those who voted leave (even though he didn't vote himself) in that to most of them it was an emotional decision rather than a rational economic one.
When Sproty (and that bloke from Barnsley) did his O level geography Britain was rolling back its former Empire and moving away from being a major world power to just another country that needs to do deals to get by. Being part of the EU has held us back and now the shackles are off (to use a racist term) we can push forward to our true place as a major world power again.
It's the sort of argument that thinks 1066 & All That (when Britain was top nation) is a history book rather than satire. There will be many more in the months to come.
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I have had many arguments and disagreements over the years with Sproty on this forum where I thought he was factually wrong or misguided but what I would never ever say from any of those exchanges is that I have ever thought he was racist. Nor have my views on that changed from anything he has written in this post. Misguided yes, and maybe a bit naive for choosing a single black african country for his point, but that doesnt make him a racist.
Nobody has called him a racist, certainly not me.
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I am sorry if this has escalated when I googled Bigotry it brought up, a dictionary answer merely stating that referring to someone who disagrees with the views of others. I assumed Glynn searched until he found an entry which suited his agenda. Whilst out and about I googled on my IPhone and it didn't bring up the same page or entry so I accept that I have been a little Harsh with Glynn and I apologise.
I referred to Nigeria merely because the info about the boom in population was aired in the media last week, 59 Nigerians were also shot in Libya as they tried to enter illegally last week.
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I accept the apology but I still don't like the fact that your first instinct was to assume I have an agenda. I don't, As I said, I got the definition to give readers a better idea of what the word means. I deliberately made no other comment in that post because I didn't want anyone to think I was trying to influence their thinking, the very opposite of having an agenda.
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Big H I agree but we wil be in charge of who we let in, not some silly house wife in Berlin,the Mediterranean is about to become a swimming pool and the Eu which traditionally under spends on Defence will expect the U.K. To put the shoulder to the cart.
We are getting out at the right time mark my words, those Syrian fuguees Angie let in 2 years ago will soon be able to claim Eu passports, how many of them are sleepers ? Nobody knows but we do know some are! Also the 700 idiots who bogged off to the 'Promised land' can also sneak back in,the EU was a nice cosy little club 30 years ago today that isn't the case.
Please tell me you are joking, this series of posts surely doesn't reflect you as a person ?
Are you just trying to stir up the debate if so good on you for trying to shake the racists and bigots out of the trees .
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Problem being, that your decision is also going to leave MY kids considerably worse off too.
And mine , now can you see why we are so fecking furious !!!
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Hoopla since when does somebody having a different view or opinion than your own make them a lesser or bad person? I am still an affable chap, I just don't want this Country to become part of a United States of Europe.
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I just don't want this Country to become part of a United States of Europe.
you're implying that us "remainers" do, and that it is inevitable. the ironic thing is whilst we were are in the EU we get to vote against such ideas e.g. Turkey being admitted, which we never would have allowed.
Anyway, I digress. Let's all look to the future where we, and our children, will pay more for less...
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I just don't want this Country to become part of a United States of Europe.
you're implying that us "remainers" do, and that it is inevitable. the ironic thing is whilst we were are in the EU we get to vote against such ideas e.g. Turkey being admitted, which we never would have allowed.
Anyway, I digress. Let's all look to the future where we, and our children, will pay more for less...
Actually, Turkey cannot become a member of the EU until they sign the ECHR, which would mean they'd have to abolish the death penalty even before their application being considered - which I can't see Turkey doing anytime soon, certainly not for a generation at least. Yet Farage stirred it up saying the Turks were already lining up to invade us. And loads of mugs believed him and did his bidding.
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Hoopla since when does somebody having a different view or opinion than your own make them a lesser or bad person? I am still an affable chap, I just don't want this Country to become part of a United States of Europe.
It doesn't and I have to say that initially I thought you were joking when you raised the issue of Nigerians making the 4365 mile trek by land ,sea and air to invade our green and pleasant land . When have we ever lost the right to secure our borders from this " sea of humanity " ? That's right NEVER !
I really hope you haven't just stuck a pin in a map just to create a new and again unreal fear to motivate people as like-minded as you obviously are. Turkey having been disproved as bunkum so you pick Nigeria as someone said earlier "Jesus wept "
Has someone from Nigeria scammed you ?
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Hoopla I haven't got a problem with Nigeria, it's the fact that the population is set to more than double in the next 30 years,they are losing vast reaches of the North to the Sahara, climate change is causing frequent flooding in the Niger delta, and they still cook with firewood.the Nigerian govt is trying to stop that happening by a massive tree planting operation in the north,Hey goats eat tree leaves!, it will take them a 100 years to turn that Oil tanker around, good luck to them. Also the human trafficking route across the Sahara is already in use.
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Hoopla I haven't got a problem with Nigeria, it's the fact that the population is set to more than double in the next 30 years,they are losing vast reaches of the North to the Sahara, climate change is causing frequent flooding in the Niger delta, and they still cook with firewood.the Nigerian govt is trying to stop that happening by a massive tree planting operation in the north,Hey goats eat tree leaves!, it will take them a 100 years to turn that Oil tanker around, good luck to them. Also the human trafficking route across the Sahara is already in use.
What I don't understand - and I've asked several times now, is why you've used Nigeria as a reason to vote to leave the EU?
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Hoopla I haven't got a problem with Nigeria, it's the fact that the population is set to more than double in the next 30 years,they are losing vast reaches of the North to the Sahara, climate change is causing frequent flooding in the Niger delta, and they still cook with firewood.the Nigerian govt is trying to stop that happening by a massive tree planting operation in the north,Hey goats eat tree leaves!, it will take them a 100 years to turn that Oil tanker around, good luck to them. Also the human trafficking route across the Sahara is already in use.
What I don't understand - and I've asked several times now, is why you've used Nigeria as a reason to vote to leave the EU?
There were 2 news items last week one was the growth in Nigerias population and the second related to the murder of 59 Nigerian economic immigrants in Libya,I merely used Nigeria as I wrongly assumed other board members had also see the National news,clearly not!
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Hoopla I haven't got a problem with Nigeria, it's the fact that the population is set to more than double in the next 30 years,they are losing vast reaches of the North to the Sahara, climate change is causing frequent flooding in the Niger delta, and they still cook with firewood.the Nigerian govt is trying to stop that happening by a massive tree planting operation in the north,Hey goats eat tree leaves!, it will take them a 100 years to turn that Oil tanker around, good luck to them. Also the human trafficking route across the Sahara is already in use.
What I don't understand - and I've asked several times now, is why you've used Nigeria as a reason to vote to leave the EU?
There were 2 news items last week one was the growth in Nigerias population and the second related to the murder of 59 Nigerian economic immigrants in Libya,I merely used Nigeria as I wrongly assumed other board members had also see the National news,clearly not!
So what?? What has all that waffle got to do with leaving the EU?
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http://nigeriahealthwatch.com/the-elephant-in-the-room-nigerias-population-growth-crisis/
There you go Glynn.I answered your question in my first post. The figures in this article are far more accurate than a financial institution trying to promote the country.
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http://nigeriahealthwatch.com/the-elephant-in-the-room-nigerias-population-growth-crisis/
There you go Glynn.I answered your question in my first post. The figures in this article are far more accurate than a financial institution trying to promote the country.
I can't see anything in there about what difference the UK being in or out of the EU makes, which is the question I'm asking. All I can see is waffle about Nigerian population growth forecasts, which I'm not the slightest bit interested in, or asking about - because it has nothing at all to do with the UK's relationship with the EU.
Answer the question - why are you using Nigeria as a reason for the UK leaving the EU? Or are you going to post another irrelevant link and say 'there you are'?
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I am not answering any more of you drivelling questions .Do NOT use me in your posts when you try to patronise other posters!
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You ought to know what patronising means before you accuse people of it.
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I feel condescending is better word to use when describing Glyn or another phrase could be argumentative pillock. Not sure which suits him better.
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I am not answering any more of you drivelling questions.
How can you not answer any more of my questions when you haven't even answered one simple one?
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I feel condescending is better word to use when describing Glyn or another phrase could be argumentative pillock. Not sure which suits him better.
Nice of you to pop up and join in. Now, if I was to say it was nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, would that be condescending of me or not?
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I feel condescending is better word to use when describing Glyn or another phrase could be argumentative pillock. Not sure which suits him better.
Nice of you to pop up and join in. Now, if I was to say it was nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, would that be condescending of me or not?
As usual Glyn very selective again with the parts of the quotes you use, you completely ignored the argumentative pillock bit.
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I feel condescending is better word to use when describing Glyn or another phrase could be argumentative pillock. Not sure which suits him better.
Nice of you to pop up and join in. Now, if I was to say it was nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, would that be condescending of me or not?
As usual Glyn very selective again with the parts of the quotes you use, you completely ignored the argumentative pillock bit.
I can be argumentative and I can be a pillock sometime, so I'm not ignoring them I'm just not arguing about them.
Now, as you've mentioned completely ignoring something...I notice you've completely ignored my question. Back to you.
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I feel condescending is better word to use when describing Glyn or another phrase could be argumentative pillock. Not sure which suits him better.
Nice of you to pop up and join in. Now, if I was to say it was nice to see you have crawled out from under your stone, would that be condescending of me or not?
As usual Glyn very selective again with the parts of the quotes you use, you completely ignored the argumentative pillock bit.
I can be argumentative and I can be a pillock sometime, so I'm not ignoring them I'm just not arguing about them.
Now, as you've mentioned completely ignoring something...I notice you've completely ignored my question. Back to you.
But am I ignoring the question or have I read it and thought what sort of pillock asks questions like that?
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So someone you accuse of being condescending is asking your opinion about whether something is condescending or not and you think it's a stupid question?
No, you just don't want to answer it.
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Yes and yes
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So, you complain that someone ignores something but you do the same. What a hypocrite.
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So, you complain that someone ignores something but you do the same. What a hypocrite.
Did I complain or did I make a comment?. Be careful what words you use Glyn as some on this board will analyse every word you type in any post and ask loads of questions about it and demand answers over and over again.
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Del Boy you have summed Glynn up nicely,well done
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I don't ask lots of questions. I tend to ask the same one repeatedly because it never gets answered.