Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on January 08, 2018, 02:54:18 pm
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And why was it in crisis at the back end of the 1990s after 18 years of Tory rule and several years of Blair/Brown following the same spending policies?
https://mobile.twitter.com/jdportes/status/949939889545596928/photo/1
Beats me. Must be all the scrounging immigrants.
For comparison, this is the % of GDP that some other countries spent on health care in 2015.
Germany 11.1%
France 11.0%
Netherlands 10.9%
Switzerland 11.5%
USA (2016) 17.9%
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Interesting to see that the NHS bumbled along nicely at approx 5% of GDP from 1975 until 2000 now at 7% its in the Do do, what's causing that an ageing population ?
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I don’t know the answer to your question BST but I do know that dumping HS2 and allocating that funding to the NHS would ease the burden considerably.
Not many of us want or would regularly use HS2 but all of us or our families need the NHS.
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in fairness BST, the US healthcare system isn't seen to be as "good" as European countries or over hear, so I don't think it's all about how much you spend, although I agree <10% is too low.
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Private healthcare cover was also non existent in 1975 whereas 4 million have private cover today.
US figures will now be out of date as Obama care has withered away under the Trump administration.
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Israel spends 10.87% of its GDP on health care, I always look at Israeli spending as they are really good with money.
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What is the missing 4% being spent on ? Looking at the graph and Israel we should be spending at least 11% on our Health care.
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Money is an issue definately but not helped by the massive PFI burden on NHS finances. also as posted on another thread
Health tourism is a red herring as you say mate. Its easier to point the finger at scapegoats than to face the actual problems. 1) the crisis in social care which has the knock on effect of hospitals not been able to get people off wards (Bed blocking). 2) the lack of accessibility in primary care (GPs) which leads to ppl attending A&E uneccessarily. 3) the elephant in the room, the post war baby boom has hit old age, means a large elderly population pressure needing attention (look at a population pyramid)
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PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
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Because of political ideology. The Tories dont believe anything should be provided free of charge that could be monitised and they believe personal tax should be as low as possible.
They would like to privatise the NHS and get you to pay for your healthcare - as everyone (who could afford it) did prior to 1945. Jeremy Hunt has written a book about it.
How many Tories use the NHS anyway, BUPA has 3 million members in the UK?
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PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.
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Ill throw a contraversial view. You could operate the NHS without it owning a single asset. The NHS is treatment free at the point of delivery. As long as the NHS cover the cost of treatment as a patient does it affect you who owns the hospital (from a patient perspective NOT political leanings re private companies making money)
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I've used a lot of the nhs of late and it's been excellent it really has. Didn't seem that much in crisis for the parts we have needed to use - I even got a fairly decent Christmas dinner.
The use of private companies isn't always a bad thing either. For some things they can be excellent the key is getting good contracts in place.
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Because of political ideology. The Tories dont believe anything should be provided free of charge that could be monitised and they believe personal tax should be as low as possible.
They would like to privatise the NHS and get you to pay for your healthcare - as everyone (who could afford it) did prior to 1945. Jeremy Hunt has written a book about it.
How many Tories use the NHS anyway, BUPA has 3 million members in the UK?
What is the political preference of the 3 million BUPA Members Wilts?
Do you have an idea how many Tory, Labour,Liberal etc there are ?
Just curious.
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Because of political ideology. The Tories dont believe anything should be provided free of charge that could be monitised and they believe personal tax should be as low as possible.
They would like to privatise the NHS and get you to pay for your healthcare - as everyone (who could afford it) did prior to 1945. Jeremy Hunt has written a book about it.
How many Tories use the NHS anyway, BUPA has 3 million members in the UK?
What is the political preference of the 3 million BUPA Members Wilts?
Do you have an idea how many Tory, Labour,Liberal etc there are ?
Just curious.
Given the political preference of those people on twitter who say that health treatment should be paid for they are 100% Tory. But that is a very unscientific survey done by me. Why dont you do one, be interesting to compare?
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Oh and this is a list of MP's with links to private NHS firms. Your suspicions were correct in that there are several Liberals on there with 60 or so Tories.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154
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My mp is on that list.. He's always first in the queue to be a good little tory. It's certainly worked for him.. He earned himself a nice little knighthood.
😣
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Interesting to see that the NHS bumbled along nicely at approx 5% of GDP from 1975 until 2000 now at 7% its in the Do do, what's causing that an ageing population ?
Ageing population.
New treatments.
New equipment.
New drugs.
Expectation that life expectancy and life quality should improve.
In the 1970s, a man of 65 could expect, on average, to live to about 76. A woman would expect to live to about 82.
Today, the expected ages are about 82 and 86 respectively. A lot of that increase has been due to healthier lifestyles, but a good chunk is also due to better health care. Which costs money.
In general the amount of its GDP a country spends on health is very closely related to its general societal development. The USA is an obvious outlier there. They spend so much because they have a horrifically inefficient system and little control of costs. The pharmaceutical companies and private hospitals make phenomenal profits. The NHS by comparison is an extremely efficient system which is big enough to play strong arm with the pharma companies.
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Here’s an example of how health care has improved.
In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.
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Here’s an example of how health care has improved.
In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.
So it's not going down the pan at all then! Selfish twits going to A&E because they have a cold, hangover,are pissed and want a warm,have got an abscess on their Dangler from injecting Heroin etc.I have been unfortunate enough to have visited A&E several times lately and the number of useless no hopers in there blocking access for people who really need help is a disgrace.
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PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.
My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.
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PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.
My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.
You ever had a mortgage?
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Here’s an example of how health care has improved.
In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.
So it's not going down the pan at all then! Selfish twits going to A&E because they have a cold, hangover,are pissed and want a warm,have got an abscess on their Dangler from injecting Heroin etc.I have been unfortunate enough to have visited A&E several times lately and the number of useless no hopers in there blocking access for people who really need help is a disgrace.
How's your dangler?
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Here’s an example of how health care has improved.
In 1974, nearly 10,000 kids died below the age of 10. By 1990, that figure was still over 4,000. By 2015, the figure was down to 2,000.
So it's not going down the pan at all then! Selfish twits going to A&E because they have a cold, hangover,are pissed and want a warm,have got an abscess on their Dangler from injecting Heroin etc.I have been unfortunate enough to have visited A&E several times lately and the number of useless no hopers in there blocking access for people who really need help is a disgrace.
How's your dangler?
Can't see it anymore, hope its still there😂😂😂
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Oh and this is a list of MP's with links to private NHS firms. Your suspicions were correct in that there are several Liberals on there with 60 or so Tories.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154
A list from 2014.
However, I have never heard of most of them so have no idea which party they represent.
It is hard to believe that no Labour MPs are BUPA members though.
As a self confessed non political expert I was genuinely asking you if you knew the answer to the question I asked.
Oh and I don’t do Twitter, Instagram or Facebook.
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What's so bad about having private care?
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Oh and this is a list of MP's with links to private NHS firms. Your suspicions were correct in that there are several Liberals on there with 60 or so Tories.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154
No Labour people at all that's astounding . Not sure it would be entirely accurate though given that it was for the Mirror launching an attack on the other 2 parties.
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PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
Funny, I never realised John Major's was a Labour Government. PFI was first introduced in 1992.PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.
My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.
Pity there's been no-one with any common sense in Government since 2010, as they've not stopped doing it.
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PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
Funny, I never realised John Major's was a Labour Government. PFI was first introduced in 1992.PFI funding! Baby of Labour Govt, was I the only person who saw it would prove to be a disaster. I think a few high ups in healthcare saw through it and the attitude was, well when it goes Tits up the Govt of the day will bail us out.
PFI's were introduced by John Major in the early 1990's. Like all Tory ideas Labour try and follow it never goes well. That's capitalism for you.
My experience of PFI was under the last Labour Govt how anyone with a bit of common sense thought buying a Building on a PFI which cost £18 million to build in reality but would cost said organisation £90 million over the life of the project, thought they were getting a good deal is beyond me.
Pity there's been no-one with any common sense in Government since 2010, as they've not stopped doing it.
Happy Bew year Glynn
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What's so bad about having private care?
I think the fact people are having to make the choice shows just how bad the situation; we shouldn't need to make a choice! Why shouldn't/can't the NHS function just as well as private health care? The fact that over the years people are starting to believe Tory propaganda, that a fully-functional NHS is a pipedream, shows just how close they are to realising their dream of dismantling the NHS altogether.
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Spot on BJW.
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What's so bad about having private care?
I think the fact people are having to make the choice shows just how bad the situation; we shouldn't need to make a choice! Why shouldn't/can't the NHS function just as well as private health care? The fact that over the years people are starting to believe Tory propaganda, that a fully-functional NHS is a pipedream, shows just how close they are to realising their dream of dismantling the NHS altogether.
One of the biggest contributors to NHS struggles is the fact that people are living longer and therefore are a big drain on resources.
Not the fault of the government of course but I suppose euthanasia could be introduced.
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What's so bad about having private care?
I think the fact people are having to make the choice shows just how bad the situation; we shouldn't need to make a choice! Why shouldn't/can't the NHS function just as well as private health care? The fact that over the years people are starting to believe Tory propaganda, that a fully-functional NHS is a pipedream, shows just how close they are to realising their dream of dismantling the NHS altogether.
One of the biggest contributors to NHS struggles is the fact that people are living longer and therefore are a big drain on resources.
Not the fault of the government of course but I suppose euthanasia could be introduced.
YEY!! shall we have a poll to see where we start?
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That depends on how old you are I guess
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Euthanasia? Over my dead body. :mad:
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Oh and this is a list of MP's with links to private NHS firms. Your suspicions were correct in that there are several Liberals on there with 60 or so Tories.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/selling-nhs-profit-full-list-4646154
A list from 2014.
However, I have never heard of most of them so have no idea which party they represent.
It is hard to believe that no Labour MPs are BUPA members though.
As a self confessed non political expert I was genuinely asking you if you knew the answer to the question I asked.
Oh and I don’t do Twitter, Instagram or Facebook.
Sorry hound, missed your post. Yes it's a list from 2014 as thats when the coalition were debating whether or not to let private companies (like the ones mentioned) take over NHS contracts. Which they did. The information in is taken from the MP's lists of interests and an updated one should have been published before last years election but somehow wasn't.
I am not a member of BUPA (or any other private medical provider) so I have no idea what type of information they ask for. I would be surprised if it includes party affiliation and even more surprised if they do they would publish it.
Would the Tory government be making different choices on funding and running the NHS if they used it instead of private healthcare? Your guess is as good as mine but probably a different answer.
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What's so bad about having private care?
Has anyone said it's bad?
What's bad is not providing proper healthcare for those who can't afford it. Which is the debate they are having in the US at the moment and the reason the NHS came into being.
Take for example the situation with dental treatment. If you are able to pay for private treatment there is no problem finding a dentist. If you cant you might have to travel up to 60 miles - or do what these people did:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41113507
If it can happen with dentists, why not GP's or hospitals? Can't pay, we'll take it away....
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Ohh I love it! I have private cover for me and the better half (me through work and I pay for her through the work policy) the better half has been in hospital for 4 months the private cover doesn't want to know! and won't do the problems she has! however they will pay us x amount of £'s per night for so many days while she is in a nhs bed but nowhere near 4 months to put it bluntly if my wife had to rely on private health care she would be dead simple as and believe me I have a very good level of cover
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How many Tories use the NHS anyway, BUPA has 3 million members in the UK?
I would imagine that the vast majority of those 3 million have their membership paid for by their employer and would never dream of actually shelling out on health cover for themselves when the NHS does such a fantastic job.
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The age issue is correct. The post war baby boom has hit old age. If you look at a population pyramid this current age strain will be around for around the next decade then will ease
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Ohh I love it! I have private cover for me and the better half (me through work and I pay for her through the work policy) the better half has been in hospital for 4 months the private cover doesn't want to know! and won't do the problems she has! however they will pay us x amount of £'s per night for so many days while she is in a nhs bed but nowhere near 4 months to put it bluntly if my wife had to rely on private health care she would be dead simple as and believe me I have a very good level of cover
I'm in a similar situation as are most peeps with private cover, it is merely a means of queue jumping. Due to other halfs health while ever I can afford it I will continue to have it.
Oh made a trip to A&E Saturday, you will be pleased to know it was packed and there were oldies in cots in corridors,two very nasty individuals came in either pissed or off their heads on drugs,one needed the help of 2 Police Officers and three security guards to leave, after 2 hours of being an utter prat and terrifying half the folks in the waiting area. Then I decided to use the loo, I was sat looking at the door for 15 mins before I went and nobody came out or went in, When I got in one of the cubicles was occupied and the place smelled like a dead corpse was in there I had my number one and returned to my seat, watching the door, after a further 15 mins a person walked out they were about 6 feet tall and 10 stone in weight they wore grey baggy tacky bottoms, a Grey hoody the hood over their head and a black face mask so all you could see were their eyes they strutted out of A&E with a mobile in their hands blasting out 'house music' later I heard a Doctorspend 30 minutes tell an old lady that there was nothing wrong with her and that no she couldn't have a bed and that she had been to A&E 4 times since November basically being a nuisance, it then took three staff 30 minutes to sort an Ambulance for her.an hour later I used the loo again and it still stunk from hoodies visit who had left a disgusting mess in the cubicle and blocked the toilet.
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Bad management and wasteful practices?
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I have a friend who is a porter at a hospital down south and we've had this discussion..Of course every area is different but his opinion is the amount of waste in administration is criminal..There are lots of administrative offices in his hospital with 20 people in that do the work 0f 3 people.Some of them spend there days walking around each others offices moving files from one end of the hospital to another enjoying endless cups of tea half hour chats,drop a file and then on to the next office and do it all again..They call it the "Trolly holly"
He then says you then go up to the ward to find 4 nurses running around like blue arse fly's trying to look after 30 sick people and its bedlam..These people finish there shift shattered...
Apparently nobody ever leaves there job in admin..The salary,pension and perks are brilliant and wouldn't be found in the private sector for half the money and 3 times the work...
Like I said every hospital and trust will be different but I suspect that's its not just a case of throwing money at it but a mixture of increased saving and dam good waste management reviews that would turn this around.....
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I've worked in the NHS in non-medical roles. My experience is similar to the poster above. Also everything seems to cost a lot more than it should due to poor procurement practices.
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I did a lot of work with RDASH up to 4 years ago, the management wiring structure diagrams were massive, a mate who is still with them says they made a load of management redundant but didn't have anybody shadowing then prior to them leaving, they then had to have a load back on consultancies!
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What made me chuckle yesterday.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/955714755968294914
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What made me chuckle yesterday.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/955714755968294914
In there I see a reference to that brilliant brilliant book 'Goedel, Escher, Bach' by Douglas Hofstadter. Also not bad for insomnia.....