Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: hoolahoop on March 22, 2018, 06:50:40 am
-
The words of Alexander Nix
February 10 2016 CEO of SCL.
" Recently, Cambridge Analytica has teamed up with Leave.EU – the UK’s largest group advocating for a British exit (or ‘Brexit’) from the European Union – to help them better understand and communicate with UK voters. We have already helped supercharge Leave.EU’s social media campaign by ensuring the right messages are getting to the right voters online, and the campaign’s Facebook page is growing in support to the tune of about 3,000 people per day.
All of which shows that whether you are trying to reach out to a voter, change hearts and minds about Britain’s EU membership, or move product, the more you know about your target audience, the better you will be able to engage, persuade and motivate them to act."
Read more at https://www.campaignlive.co.uk/article/big-data-better-donald-trump/1383025#VDO1QgOub16ZP7AB.99
Are people ( Leavers or Remainers ) still comfortable about how Brexit was brought about because there isn't long to get this nonsense stopped ?
-
I was under the impression that they we working for Brexin and that you, Billy one or 2 other posters on here were their agents!
-
I was under the impression that they we working for Brexin and that you, Billy one or 2 other posters on here were I was under the impression that they we working for Brexin and that you, Billy one or 2 other posters on here were their agents!
Whatever made you think whatever it is you are thinking ?
How can an intelligent person like you make light of such a serious interference with our democratic process ?
-
So why has the Information Commissioner still not been granted a warrant to search their offices?
Links to the Tory Party & Royal Family and run by Old Etonians, members of the House of Lords and ex-Army Officers, where there's a theory there's a conspiracy....
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-deep-state-breaks-surface/
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/03/20/scl-a-very-british-coup/
-
So why has the Information Commissioner still not been granted a warrant to search their offices?
Links to the Tory Party & Royal Family and run by Old Etonians, members of the House of Lords and ex-Army Officers, where there's a theory there's a conspiracy....
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/the-deep-state-breaks-surface/
http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2018/03/20/scl-a-very-british-coup/
Anything in their offices will be long gone .
-
The story broken by Ch4 this evening will now see the Brexit thread on here merging with Cambridge Analytica and Question Time themes;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ0bFAgTGwk
Might all be a storm in a teacup, but remember the election overspending scandal where funds were not properly declared as election expenses?
Pattern emerging here....can you see it yet?
-
Definitely worth a watch that Albie. It's not that explosive, but only because shady dealings in the Leave campaign was already exposed through Arron Banks, and in the Panama papers.
I'm really confused by the Brexiteer mindset. You were lied to, there's proof you were manipulated, and there's a whistleblower testifying that your tax money was spent illegally to do so! You paid someone to lie to you, so you'd cast a vote to make yourself provably poorer. And yet you aren't angry at the people who manipulated, swindled and lied to you, you're angry at people who point out the lie. I just don't get it.
-
MM.
It takes a lot for a person to look in the mirror and accept that they have been duped. That’s why swindlers and propagandists can get away with fooling people. Because they rely on the fact that the person who has been fooled has a lot of emotional skin in the game. They want to carry on believing that a) they weren’t duped, they made up their own mind and b) the decision they came to was in their own best interests.
Course, there are exceptions to the rule. We’ve got one in here who came to a decision about how to vote because of some thing the Remain side said. That something came to pass. And now he moans about having been duped. And steadfastly refuses to listen to any argument that demonstrates that he wasn’t duped. I’m guessing he’s over-compensating for fear of being thought to be one of the gullible ones.
-
BST, are you talking from personal experience? If so, has your experience of being duped in the past left you exempt from it happening again?
-
BST, are you talking from personal experience? If so, has your experience of being duped in the past left you exempt from it happening again?
No he's talking about you ....
-
Think I've found some footage of BB:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25KW97GIzfU
-
I refer my honorable colleagues to my earlier post. Those are the people you voted to run the country in the direction they see fit, this thread links into how they did it and these are the consequences for those who dont agree with and spoke out against it.
First they came for...
-
BST, are you talking from personal experience? If so, has your experience of being duped in the past left you exempt from it happening again?
BB
If only you knew how close to the bone that cuts mate...
-
Leave . EU attempted to cut all ties between these 2 campaigns unfortunately the links have been kept and the Guardian have them running through now . Victoria Woodcock and Dominic Cummings attempted to delete themselves from the BeLeave campaign group which thet were channelling extra funds through directly to AIQ ( part of Cambridge Analytica ) and yes DUP funding was going through too.
What surprises me is why, when this expose first hit the headlines a year ago, it has taken so long to investigate it fully. The whole Referendum result is skewed because of this and boatloads of DUP money being spent in the English MSM without having to reveal why and from where the money came from .
-
I was under the impression that they we working for Brexin and that you, Billy one or 2 other posters on here were their agents!
Sproty , it doesn't matter which side of the argument you support, this is not the way forward for our democracy to operate !
-
I refer my honorable colleagues to my earlier post. Those are the people you voted to run the country in the direction they see fit, this thread links into how they did it and these are the consequences for those who dont agree with and spoke out against it.
First they came for...
That's a disgrace . What the he'll have we got running the show , a Foreign Secretary that further endangers the health and freedom of an innocent in Iran and a no.10 spokesman that deliberately " outs " a muslim knowing the full ramifications for this lad's health welfare and safety and those of his extended family !
If , when reading this , you're not indignant and deeply worried about what is happening to our country then perhaps you should think again. This story has already been suppressed for a year since the full exposé was in the Observer.
-
Suppressed with threats of legal action.
This from May last year.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/863643199075700736
-
Suppressed with threats of legal action.
This from May last year.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/863643199075700736
I remember reading a big expose by her in the Observer last year but could never understand what was holding It all up - now I know and it's that link to no.10. This is NOT going to go away easily . Now we should insist on finding out where all that " supposed " DUP money came from last year to bankroll shedloads of pro- Brexit material in the English ( not Irish incidentally ) press. No wonder the rules about where the money comes from are kept secret - this should change now. This country is rotten to the core democratically at present .
-
Dont worry everyone according to Jo Coburn on the Daily Politics 3 minutes ago " is all this just remainer sour grapes " - I f**king give in with the BBC seeing as though this all came from a committed Leaver. BBC " spinning it " right now.
-
Interesting referenced article in the Canary, pointing out the tentacles of influence beyond the obvious;
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/03/26/scl-and-cambridge-analyticas-links-with-defence-establishment-revealed-and-its-not-just-contracts/
Looks like the whole shebang is well out of hand.
At what point do you qualify as a "rogue state" I wonder!
Oh well, Facecrook is now on the case, so it is probably sorted!
-
https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/blasts-jacob-rees-mogg-for-spreading-brexit-lies/
Yet another set of lies from The Sun and of course Jacob Rees- Mogg :(
-
Interesting referenced article in the Canary, pointing out the tentacles of influence beyond the obvious;
https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/03/26/scl-and-cambridge-analyticas-links-with-defence-establishment-revealed-and-its-not-just-contracts/
Looks like the whole shebang is well out of hand.
At what point do you qualify as a "rogue state" I wonder!
Oh well, Facecrook is now on the case, so it is probably sorted!
Yes and today the BBC ran a mile from properly digging into this story, its one I believe people are frightened to get involved in .
-
Hoola, the truth ought to be the minimum requirement, not something to be scared of.
Surely in most cases the truth eventually comes out.
-
Hoola, the truth ought to be the minimum requirement, not something to be scared of.
Surely in most cases the truth eventually comes out.
You would hope so buddy but it does seem in short supply at the moment and sacrificed for people's and Party ambitions .
None of these people give a shite for the truth.....This has to be the worst Govt of my lifetime and I'm not even sure that we have a credible opposition at the moment.
-
Unfortunately though Idler sometimes, like Hillsborough, it's many years after the event.
-
Intelligent people should learn from past mistakes though Wilts.
-
https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/blasts-jacob-rees-mogg-for-spreading-brexit-lies/
Yet another set of lies from The Sun and of course Jacob Rees- Mogg :(
Hoola.
This is the set of lies from The Sun that Rees-Mogg tweeted about.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/968534387057942529
Every single one of those numbers is wrong. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
On many of those items, we pay no tariffs. On the ones that we do, the figures are wildly over-inflated.
Even The Sun has the good grace to take that story down when it was pointed out to them how wrong it was. As of 21:30 tonight, and despite hundreds of messages asking him to remove it over the past month, it’s still on Rees-Mogg’s Twitter feed
BB. THAT is what political lying looks like.
PS. This was The Sun’s apology.
https://mobile.twitter.com/soechristian/status/978165674404171777/photo/1
Rees-Mogg obviously thinks it doesn’t matter if he propagates untruths and doesn’t set the record straight when the untruths are shown to be untruths.
Not all politicians are like that, but when a Kitson like him becomes so prominent, I can well understand why people think they ARE all like him.
-
https://amp.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/blasts-jacob-rees-mogg-for-spreading-brexit-lies/
Yet another set of lies from The Sun and of course Jacob Rees- Mogg :(
Hoola.
This is the set of lies from The Sun that Rees-Mogg tweeted about.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/968534387057942529
Every single one of those numbers is wrong. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
On many of those items, we pay no tariffs. On the ones that we do, the figures are wildly over-inflated.
Even The Sun has the good grace to take that story down when it was pointed out to them how wrong it was. As of 21:30 tonight, and despite hundreds of messages asking him to remove it over the past month, it’s still on Rees-Mogg’s Twitter feed
BB. THAT is what political lying looks like.
PS. This was The Sun’s apology.
https://mobile.twitter.com/soechristian/status/978165674404171777/photo/1
Rees-Mogg obviously thinks it doesn’t matter if he propagates untruths and doesn’t set the record straight when the untruths are shown to be untruths.
Not all politicians are like that, but when a Kitson like him becomes so prominent, I can well understand why people think they ARE all like him.
What worries me the most is how , after all that has happened to our people locally, people from this area could EVER put their trust in this lot again. The Mail, Sun and Express on/offline , slap summat in a headline and folk round here never learn the lesson not to trust A)These fooking rags and B) The Tory Party.
However if it's summat against the EU , however stupid, however exaggerated it is , however much of a lie - it turns out to be gospel truth .
Truth is we have the dishonest and lacklustre politicians of ALL Parties that we deserve.
First thing to do with our politics is to ensure that the same people don't serve terms in excess of 12 years and even that's perhaps too long and abolish the FPTP political system , it perpetuates the former and harms real equality of representation of the masses. Quite simply this is not working .
-
Hoola.
You can tell that the Brexiteers are getting twitchy about the whole CA thing.
This t**t has rejoined the fray. The one who told us that the British public had had enough of listening to experts is now telling us that we’ve got to listen to the decision of the very people he and his long-term mate Cummings misled.
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelgove/status/977849041051668482
-
It will take 5 years to know who was lied to, (to say it was all one sided is stupid ) then and only about then will we know for sure whether the vote to leave was the right one or not.
Everything until then is guesswork or wishful thinking, at my age I may not be around then, but either way I am sure some on here will be happy for everyone to be in the poor house, just so they were proved right.
-
Selby
That last sentence of yours is disgraceful. Is that what we’ve come to?
-
It will take 5 years to know who was lied to, (to say it was all one sided is stupid ) then and only about then will we know for sure whether the vote to leave was the right one or not.
Everything until then is guesswork or wishful thinking, at my age I may not be around then, but either way I am sure some on here will be happy for everyone to be in the poor house, just so they were proved right.
I have children and grandchildren and would certainly NOT be happy for them to be struggling just so someone is proved right. I'd rather the people of this country saw sense.
As for who was lied to and who was doing the lying....
(https://i.imgur.com/bo95g6P.jpg)
-
NNK
Bang on. The LAST thing I want is for my kids to be growing up in a country that is much poorer than it should be. I’d be delighted to be wrong. I’m, frankly, disgusted that people in here think I’d want to be proved right to be able to say “I told you so.”
But the ONLY people who are saying that the Brexit we’re heading for is going to work out alright are ones who would make me check the calendar if the told me it was Tues 27 March.
Politicians: Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Davis, Farage and Trump.
Economist: Patrick Minford. The man who persuaded Thatcher to implement policies that turned the 1981 recession from a bad one to a catastrophic one.
Papers: Mail, Express, Sun.
The thing is, democracy doesn’t mean going to a polling booth and then saying, “What will be will be.” If you really want a strong democracy, you need to think about the issues constantly and you need to face up to the facts that emerge and you need to be big enough to change your mind when you’re wrong.
-
Who needs a referendum? We should have just sold the result to the highest bidder.
-
Hoola.
You can tell that the Brexiteers are getting twitchy about the whole CA thing.
This t**t has rejoined the fray. The one who told us that the British public had had enough of listening to experts is now telling us that we’ve got to listen to the decision of the very people he and his long-term mate Cummings misled.
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelgove/status/977849041051668482
Yes I have been following Gove and others on Twitter - it's unbelievable some of the assertions they have been making.
The weirdest thing today was watching yet another " Opposition day " debate in Parliament on this very subject ; apart from there being only a dozen or so Tory M!Ps on the benches NOT ONE WAS PREPARED TO DEBATE !
-
Everything until then is guesswork or wishful thinking, at my age I may not be around then, but either way I am sure some on here will be happy for everyone to be in the poor house, just so they were proved right.
Look Selby, you have pissed me off royally , do you really think that some of us have argued against the current and future effects of Brexit as if it were some cold, hard and meaningless subject in a debate called to test out our skills at debating ?
Do you think we don't have children ( I have a 20 year old ) others have grand- children ? We ALREADY know the effects this will have on the current and future prospects of our families, to suggest we argue just for arguments sake is disgraceful at best. We aren't arguing about this for fun , indeed some of us won't be here in 5 years time but our poorer children will be here to pick up the costs of this dreadful act of self- harm we do to our nation and its people. Long after the " Russian affair " has gone , this country will be left with a weaker voice and our kids will be left poorer economically , socially and morally .
The Path we are on has already achieved that with yet more dangers to come ; the road we are on is simply unsustainable and weakens us as a nation.
You do us a disservice by implying that this is some meaningless debate based on dubious facts and figures and without severe present and future implications for every man, woman and child in this country. I am disgusted and saddened by your blasé attitude to the biggest question to come in front of this country , not since the war, but ever because this is about a choice and it is in our hands to change this if we so wished not be saddled with such a self- harming decision. I won't be or at least I'm told I won't be here in 5 years time sadly to sagely tell you how right or wrong I was by then the damage would be irreversible.
Can't you see that something STINKS about this whole process why it was brought about, who stands to profit from it and the means by which it has been delivered ? Say goodnight to any arguments in 5 years time , as future generations fight to try and reverse this clusterf**k that OUR generation has imposed on generations to come .
It will be far too late to do anything about it and who won the debate certainly won't be the most pressing argument ! I and others certainly won't be gloating ......
-
What's worrying about this saga is that the " Corbyn is an anti- semite " story broke at the same time - coincidence to bury this story ?
-
Don't forget the 'Corbyn was a Communist spy' story as well!
-
The ‘Story’ was concocted by the Jewish Council of Britain I believe. Doubt very much it was done to provide a smokescreen for other news.
-
This is an old story a " lets sift through and summat will turn up for a rainy day " sort of story. Of course this was ' saved ' up in readiness for the closure of Parliament and used prior to the May Council elections. After all there are many leading Jewish Tories ( especially Brexiters ) who I am sure will have close contacts with the Board of Deputies .
This story has come out with a backdrop of the Phase 2 Brexit negotiations, the storm over AIQ, Facebook and Cambridge Analytica tampering with the Referendum , over- expenditure on behalf of the Leave campaigns and before the May elections and the closure of Parliament .
I'm sure a welcome relief for a beleaguered Tory Party if not May herself who has had a relatively triumphant week with the support over her Russia stance
Before you ask I'm definitely not an anti- Semite or Holocaust denier quite the opposite and am aware that both Labour AND Tory Parties also have a problem with Anti- Semitic/ Israeli behaviour.
One problem for the Labour Party is that any support for the Palestinians on the Gaza strip is seen as wholly anti - Semitic. The other problem being their weakness in dealing with complaints on this subject in the past.
-
Good to know that through all this national security is in such reliable hands;
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/03/29/cambridge_analytica_parent_firm_had_routine_access_to_uk_secret_information/
I'm sure that if any wallpapering over the cracks is needed, Cambridge Anaglypta has it covered!
-
Rotten to the core this goes straight to the top of both Trump's lot and ours .
Remain NEVER had a chance of winning.
-
Good to see that this story no longer is worthy of added comment or update . We are sleepwalking into this mess and the Corbyn " anti- semitism" story has arrived in good time to distract the MSM who have had a field day . Prior to this it was how much political clout we still had in the world ( with the support of the EU ) covering up the weakness of Phase 2 negotiations .
-
It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.
-
It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.
Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO. So far he has not realised the strength of the opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.
-
Good longer article on the defence connections of these people;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/cambridge-analytica-is-what-happens-when-you-privatise-military-propaganda
It looks like the election rigging might be the thin end of a larger wedge!
-
It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.
Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO. So far he has not realised the strength of the opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.
He does need to act swiftly to oust these cuckoo's in the nest first and foremost. The likes of Ian Austin, Owen Smith, Caroline Flint and the rest of the old guard have to be removed if Labour are to move any further forward. People will cry the SDP and their work as constituency MPs but as it stands they are doing more damage to Labour's chances at a time when you are absolutely correct, the priority should be saving the Brexit situation as much as is possible. If the party can't come together over that shambles it never will and there needs to be changes made. I'm not against the idea a change at leadership level either if the right head emerges. A return to New Labour would be a disaster but is thankfully impossible due to the strength of the membership and the NEC now.
-
Aye but if he f**ks off the likes of Smith and Flint it'll be spun as a "Stalinist purge" won't it...
-
Of course it will, they'll cry on Twitter and in the MSM that its been a stitch up then they'll tootle off to start their own party. It wouldn't surprise me if a couple even get swooped up by the Tories.
It's a really tough call. Corbyn has silenced these characters time and time again and yet they emerge again a couple of months later making noise and distracting from the topics we should be focussing on.
Even with Christine Shawcroft stepping down from the NEC and being replaced by Eddie Izzard for the time being, the impending election will see an actual left wing candidate replace him and ensure that mandatory selection of all candidates will come about.
It's with this that I believe Labour will need a fresh face to start its new era. Personally I'd like to see Angela Rayner step up, though she certainly needs some polishing for the top job.
-
Good longer article on the defence connections of these people;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/cambridge-analytica-is-what-happens-when-you-privatise-military-propaganda
It looks like the election rigging might be the thin end of a larger wedge!
Wow !!
It looks like it is no longer advisable to speak out against this lot.
-
It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.
Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO. So far he has not realised the strength of the opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.
He does need to act swiftly to oust these cuckoo's in the nest first and foremost. The likes of Ian Austin, Owen Smith, Caroline Flint and the rest of the old guard have to be removed if Labour are to move any further forward. People will cry the SDP and their work as constituency MPs but as it stands they are doing more damage to Labour's chances at a time when you are absolutely correct, the priority should be saving the Brexit situation as much as is possible. If the party can't come together over that shambles it never will and there needs to be changes made. I'm not against the idea a change at leadership level either if the right head emerges. A return to New Labour would be a disaster but is thankfully impossible due to the strength of the membership and the NEC now.
Wes too far to the left and you will sacrifice too much of the middle ground to the Lib/Dems and more dangerously the Tories . Losing it to the Lib/ Dems is not a disaster as a strong 3rd Party taking seats off the Tory Party ( in Tory heartlands btw ) could give Labour the means to oust a Tory Party and become the senior partner in a Rainbow Coalition. However Labour , like the others in the potential coalition, are going to have to fight against the lot, .... a hostile MSM, slur campaigns, *dark* money, CA/SDL etc. Corbyn should be using his hard-won clout to build loose alliances with ALL potential allies now .
As for Caroline Flint - what an appalling woman . Any move to deselect that excuse for an MP has my backing....where do I sign up to get rid .
It doesn't help, with the local vote giving her an excuse to move further to the Right and of course give huge backing for the spurious " will of the people " nonsense. She is yet another of the local MPs to blame the EU for the area's woes when she , Ed Miliband and Rosie Winterton held high office and could have influenced the growth and Re-generation of this area pre 2010 . Incidentally the EU was doing just that and still continues to do so for now at least . When you look around and see just how much EU money poured into the area - it's devastating to think that we will in future have to compete for ever- dwindling monies from a deaf Westminster . Welcome to the past.
-
God forbid that any Labour MPs should act up and continually criticise the leadership of the party or vote against the party line. Thank heavens Jeremy has never done anything like that.
-
God forbid that any Labour MPs should act up and continually criticise the leadership of the party or vote against the party line. Thank heavens Jeremy has never done anything like that.
Of course they should be able to speak out against the party but should they when it's patently obvious that both Corbyn and the Labour Party have become the object of the Government's reflective tactics. The ' Conservative " friends of Israel " lobby will use MSM, the BBC and anything else possible to take down the Labour Party at this crucial time.
Unfortunately they should be closing ranks but because these things ' however big or small ' have gone unresolved for so long ( prior to the Corbyn leadership - then it is easy to pick holes in the organisation at will. Especially with the pre- existing differences between the Corbynistas and the PLP.
They should be all fighting the Tory Party and Brexit , this is a very deliberate diversion to further strengthen Treeza May's position following a weak but not unexpected Transition agreement.
" Planned " - you bet your life it was.
-
It's been fine tuned this assault, while the original comment was a very Ill informed comment by Corbyn in the first place its been given maximum exposure from every right wing corner of the media and backed by just about ever scab Labour MP going, prior to their inevitable deselection. Naively from all of them, Corbyn seems to garner public support the most when most heavily under attack and I can't see this being any different. While any form of anti-semitism or racism is abhorrent I think even the most ardent cynic of JC and Labour can see that the expansive growth of the party has seen a handful of bad eggs with it. That doesn't mean the party has an overall anti-Semitic problem.
Trouble is Wes , that however you see the individuals from within the Labour Party , Corbyn included has not started to attack a Tory Party that should be on its knees with the mess that is Brexit and the affront on our economy . The way this is being persued by the Far Right is undemocratic . It's wrong that the Corbyn still hasn't realised that this is a Neo - Conservative attack on this country. Time to stop kicking shit out of each other and lacing into the OPPO. So far he has not realised the strength of the opposition and the lengths they are prepared to go to.
He does need to act swiftly to oust these cuckoo's in the nest first and foremost. The likes of Ian Austin, Owen Smith, Caroline Flint and the rest of the old guard have to be removed if Labour are to move any further forward. People will cry the SDP and their work as constituency MPs but as it stands they are doing more damage to Labour's chances at a time when you are absolutely correct, the priority should be saving the Brexit situation as much as is possible. If the party can't come together over that shambles it never will and there needs to be changes made. I'm not against the idea a change at leadership level either if the right head emerges. A return to New Labour would be a disaster but is thankfully impossible due to the strength of the membership and the NEC now.
Wes too far to the left and you will sacrifice too much of the middle ground to the Lib/Dems and more dangerously the Tories . Losing it to the Lib/ Dems is not a disaster as a strong 3rd Party taking seats off the Tory Party ( in Tory heartlands btw ) could give Labour the means to oust a Tory Party and become the senior partner in a Rainbow Coalition. However Labour , like the others in the potential coalition, are going to have to fight against the lot, .... a hostile MSM, slur campaigns, *dark* money, CA/SDL etc. Corbyn should be using his hard-won clout to build loose alliances with ALL potential allies now .
As for Caroline Flint - what an appalling woman . Any move to deselect that excuse for an MP has my backing....where do I sign up to get rid .
It doesn't help, with the local vote giving her an excuse to move further to the Right and of course give huge backing for the spurious " will of the people " nonsense. She is yet another of the local MPs to blame the EU for the area's woes when she , Ed Miliband and Rosie Winterton held high office and could have influenced the growth and Re-generation of this area pre 2010 . Incidentally the EU was doing just that and still continues to do so for now at least . When you look around and see just how much EU money poured into the area - it's devastating to think that we will in future have to compete for ever- dwindling monies from a deaf Westminster . Welcome to the past.
I agree that too far left won't do the party any favour, however I don't think that I've seen anything to suggest that any policies are particularly hard left. In comparison to what we've had under the Tories and New Labour possibly but to link it as the MSM do to Communist Russia is actual madness. The last election shows that there is a satiable appetite for a more Socialist party than what the two prior main parties were offering. It hasn't convinced the bulk of Britain clearly but it has shown there is a growing unrest that wants to see change.
In terms of the anti-semitism reported of late, I grant I am fairly new to the Labour movement. Whether there is an inherent problem I don't know and I certainly can't speak with solid evidence for every constituency, group or member, however from the time I have spent, I've never heard a single slur or even mention of anything to do with the Jewish religion nor have I seen anyone obsessed with the issues with Palestine as the media would have everyone believe. I have seen the odd abhorrent tweet and post on Facebook but they are treated with the contempt they deserve. Whether these people actually have any form of association with the Left could well be another matter and if they are found to be members I would fully expect them to be expelled and passed onto relevant authorities. Which is where my issues lie a bit with these Labour Politicians now so eager to speak out. Lets not forget that it was only the other year we had Iain McNicol ensuring he could suspend as many as possible to try and deny a Corbyn leadership victory. If the anti-semitic problem is so rife in Labour, why weren't these same Politicians ramping the pressure on then to the man who quite clearly can. There's no end game to this where these same characters can continuously attack in the way they are, at the carefully planned times they are and see the Labour Party continue to move forward.
-
But Corbyn cannot centrally remove candidates, MPs etc - his whole selling point has been that it's about the voice of the people in the party and thus is solely up to the local teams to select their candidate not him!
The whole anti semitism thing is a very strange one. I don't quite understand why it's such a problem for the left but it really is. Even that momentum lot acknowledge it and it's all too easy for the other parties to kick up a fuss which clearly has been. Point is though if he can't get a grip of it in his own party how could he run the government and country?
On to the point of big data companies, well it stinks IMO. Granted if people have nothing to hide then there is no real issue, I'm not too fussed what happens to my data yet at the same time I feel it needs control as it could do some damage.
-
Wes.
The economic policy which Labour ran on at the last Election was indistinguishable from that presented by Miliband and Balls at the previous election. How do you conclude from that that there’s a groundswell of opinion wanting a more Socialist approach? More socialist than what? On the economic front, he’s offering nothing more socialist than Gordon Brown did, apart from supporting us leaving the EU, which has always been a far-left aspiration.
Meanwhile, as I’ve been saying since Corbyn’s ascension, it’s foreign policy that will kill him electorally. His comments today on the Skripal affair are disgraceful. He’s playing party politics with an issue that is about national security. And there’s a long standing reason for this. He has, throughout his political life, been so anti-NATO and anti-American that he is prepared to turn a blind eye to the actions of anyone who is an enemy of NATO and America. Even if they try to assassinate people on UK soil. f**k knows it takes a lot to make me side with Boris Johnson on an argument, but Corbyn has managed to push me that way today. He’s playing 1980s student union politics. And it’s as f**king stupid now as it was then.
-
By saying that Boris Johnson has questions to answer about why he gave an interview saying that Porton Down had told him the nerve agent definately came from Russia, along with a FO tweet saying the same thing, when the head of Porton Down said himself they dont know where it came from?
That makes you mad does it Billy? One of the most senior figures in the government tells lies on tv and you are mad with the leader of the opposition asking him to explain why he did it?
You go tell the people of Salisbury, who learnt today from the Security Minister that this highly dangerous substances which 'if it had been deployed differently thousands would have been in danger' but were told they could clean off with wet wipes, who has been turning blind eyes and playing 1980's student politics.
-
Wilts
You know very well what I mean. Johnson is a prick and a buffoon who regularly puts his foot in his mouth. And he could and should be brought to task for that.
But there is a way of doing that. Corbyn has consistently refused to criticise Russia at all for this affair. He’s not saying “the Foreign Secretary is undermining the case against Russia by not being in control of his mouth.” If he’d said that I would agree with him 100%.
No, what Corbyn is doing, very clinically and deliberately is accentuating the undermining of the case against Russia. He is highlighting Johnson’s idiocy to throw doubt on the Russian guilt.
Because that is the MO of the Corbyn inner circle. Remember, his closest political ally, Seamus Milne, went on record as saying that people in the West were focussing on Russia’s support for Assad dropping chemical weapons and barrel bombs on his own people in order to “divert attention” from equal atrocities by the West. Milne has also frequently gone on record questioning whether Putin was really responsible for the murder of several anti-Putin figures in Russia.
Corbyn himself wrote an utterly disgraceful piece in the Morning Star five years ago (conveniently, it no longer exists on their archives - I cannot think why) in which he castigated NATO for “using the excuse of Srebrenica” to justify intervention in Kosovo. That’s “using the excuse” of learning from one of THE most appalling derelictions of duty in Europe since WWII when western leaders sat on their hands and let 8,000 men and boy civilians be massacred by militias supported by Russia, and the women left behind be gang-raped. Corbyn May well find Srebrenica appalling. I don’t know because he didn’t focus on that. He instead castigated NATO for intervening in Kosovo to stop a repeat happening.
This is a topic where you choose which side you are on. Western liberal democracy, for all its manifest flaws. Or authoritarian regimes. Corbyn regularly makes it clear where his sympathies lie.
There’s a theme here.
-
The thing is Andy, the West hardly has a gleaming record when it comes to truths in these quarters. We still have Tony Blair chirping about Corbs now instead of being locked up in the Hague for the downright lies his government were complicit in.
Now I'm no expert in Nerve Agents and the likelihood of then coming from elsewhere, nor do I trust Putin and Russia in the slightest but from what I have read today, if Porton Down are categorically saying they did not make that confirmation of where this Novichok came from then it seems that Corbyns original statement of not jumping the gun seems to be quite the sensible statement of reflection.
Another chalk line next to his name on the right side of history.
-
Missing the point Wes.
There is enough evidence for 20 countries to take action against Russia. Are you saying they are all in on some confidence trick?
I entirely agree that Johnson over-played his mouth, as he is prone to do because he’s a f**king idiot. But on matters of national security as important as this, you don’t play the sort of games that Corbyn is playing here. Not unless you have another motive.
As for Corbyn and history, well, Blair was right on Sierra Leone. He was right on Kosovo. That didn’t make him right on Iraq.
Equally, Corbyn was right on Iraq. That does not automatically make him right on Russia. Unless you believe in a Pope-like infallibility of certain politicians (and there does seem to be a LOT of that attitude amongst Corbynistas) then you assess every politician on their merits on each argument. I’ve said for a long time that I am 100% behind Corbyn’s economic case. But his attitude to Russia, his preparedness to turn a blind eye and his lifelong hatred of NATO scare the hell out of me. Look at his actions on Skripal through that lens and there is a very obvious thread.
-
Rubbish Billy. What Corbyn has constantly done is challenge the British state and their attempts to mislead the public. This attack probably came from Russia, as both he and May have said, but that is all it is a probability - any attempts to say more than that is either speculation - or deliberate misinformation. He is totally right to highlight that fact - as all the tv news outlets have led on.
Like Wes I am no expert in nerve agents but I can use google.
This novichok is deadly within 30 minutes and has no known antidotes. Two people have so far survived it - one of whom apparently reacted well to the antidote?
It can only be made by Russia - but its first proven creation was in Iran.
It can only have been made by a state - but some bloke in Moscow had some in his garage.
People should be asking questions not blindly following the governments line because they say so.
-
Wilts.
So the other 20 Govts are all in on the act?
Sorry. 19. Trump has told Putin he can replace the 60 diplomats that the USA expelled, and then come over to Washington for a chat. Looks like there’s one western leader who likes to stay mates with Putin and doesn’t see much to worry about in his behaviour.
Regarding the efficacy of Novichok, you seem to be assuming that Putin’s agents are flawless. Which goes against the record of the agents who killed Litvinenko. The tale of their attempts to find him and finish him off, and the trail of radioactivity they left across London and an Aeroflot flight would be too daft for a Laurel and Hardy sketch.
But to be honest, that’s not the point. Corbyn HASN’T been healthily skeptical on this. He’s actively supported Russia’s arguments. Starting with initially refusing to discuss the likelihood of Russian involvement. Then, in Parliament, repeating the Russian line that we should give them samples of the nerve agent for them to check (on the premise, one assumes, that they would put their hands up and say “fair cop” if they found it WAS their’s...). Then today, he’s effectively reinforced the Russian line that, because Porton Down has not said the agent came from Russia, the whole case is undermined.
That’s not a healthy skepticism of our Govt. It’s at best being a naive useful idiot for a state which poses a serious threat to us and to Europe.
-
36 countries eventually were involved in the illegal occupation of Iraq. 36 countries in on the act or hoodwinked by the 4 countries that originally invaded. Both sides of this argument are far from scrupulous. I'll stick with seeing some actual hard evidence before I make my mind up and as far as I'm aware thats all that JC has asked for. For a nation so sure of the perpetrators the actions since its happened are a tad peculiar you must admit?
-
Once we were in Iraq (wrongly, it was a catastrophic decision) the genie was out of the bottle. Do you think we should have left immediately and let the sectarian hatreds run wild?
Because if the answer to that is “no”, then your logic that the other 32 countries were “in on the act” or “hoodwinked” is flawed. There was a very strong case for keeping the shit storm that we had unleashed under some semblance of control.
I’d also suggest that your belief that all Corbyn has asked for is evidence is a little off the mark. Back in early March he asked if May would respond to the Russian request for a sample of the nerve agent. That wasn’t asking for evidence. It was implicitly saying that Corbyn put more trust in the state which poisoned Litvinenko and denied it than he put in the UK Govt.
And then today. Today started with Russia having a huge media effort to undermine the UK Govt line on the poisoning. Corbyn put himself on the Russian side of the argument by the way he responded to Johnson’s idiocy. Those appearances matter in politics. A lot.
-
36 countries eventually were involved in the illegal occupation of Iraq. 36 countries in on the act or hoodwinked by the 4 countries that originally invaded. Both sides of this argument are far from scrupulous. I'll stick with seeing some actual hard evidence before I make my mind up and as far as I'm aware thats all that JC has asked for. For a nation so sure of the perpetrators the actions since its happened are a tad peculiar you must admit?
Your post shows exactly why Labour with its current leadership won't be able to manage this country . It's Corbyn that's the problem and more especially his naivety given the time he has spent in Parliament. You do start to wonder exactly which side he is on and that's not smart and won't ever win over our people . They simply don't do lack of patriotism in their leaders or for that matter leaders who lose half their politicians potentially given the demands for de-selection of much - loved and hard - working constituency MPs.
There is far more of this far - Left " Tatchellesque " goings on than meets the eye in councils etc up and down the country and it's not healthy .
You have to remember that this country is broadly considered quite a conservative country and generally patriotic ( although the Brexit vote showed how that could go wrong ! ) so you should be able to see from that just why I think that far from being an asset to Labour , both Corbyn and Momentum could ultimately be dragging the Party down.
Yes , the economics are appealing as is the general vibrant feel that new blood brings life into stale politics but ditch the past completely or too fast at your peril.
Moreover conduct Foreign Affairs in such a manner and it is easy to see that the MSM & Social Media will feed Labour to the dogs .
-
Once we were in Iraq (wrongly, it was a catastrophic decision) the genie was out of the bottle. Do you think we should have left immediately and let the sectarian hatreds run wild?
Because if the answer to that is “no”, then your logic that the other 32 countries were “in on the act” or “hoodwinked” is flawed. There was a very strong case for keeping the shit storm that we had unleashed under some semblance of control.
I’d also suggest that your belief that all Corbyn has asked for is evidence is a little off the mark. Back in early March he asked if May would respond to the Russian request for a sample of the nerve agent. That wasn’t asking for evidence. It was implicitly saying that Corbyn put more trust in the state which poisoned Litvinenko and denied it than he put in the UK Govt.
And then today. Today started with Russia having a huge media effort to undermine the UK Govt line on the poisoning. Corbyn put himself on the Russian side of the argument by the way he responded to Johnson’s idiocy. Those appearances matter in politics. A lot.
While your first point may be correct it was only partially the point I was wishing to get across. This idea that the democratic West is virtuous in its decisions is an incorrect one and we are more than capable of creating false belief in other countries just on influence. This quote was from the Portugese Prime Minister at the time of the Iraq war:
"When [former President Bill] Clinton was here recently he told me he was absolutely convinced, given his years in the White House and the access to privileged information which he had, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction until the end of the Saddam regime."
Then we have more famously Jaques Chirac:
"There is a problem -- the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq. The international community is right . . . in having decided Iraq should be disarmed."
Again, I'm not saying its not Russia at all. I'm saying that you taking what the government say at face value is naive at best. Especially considering the mouths they're being spat out of.
Hoola, loved and hard working constituent MPs will almost certainly remain in their seats. Being a constituent of Dame Rosie Winterton, she certainly isn't hard left, nor do I believe her to be a fan of Jeremy Corbyn. What she has managed to do is carry some dignity. She probably isn't ideologically in tune with my beliefs on so many aspects but she would get my vote as I believe she would across most of Doncaster Central.
-
Wes
Difficult, this politics thing isn’t it?
You have to make decisions with uncertain and incomplete information. So you inevitably lean on the past record of the people you are dealing with.
Events like Halabja. Or Litvinenko.
Alternatively, you can stand on the side wring your hands and saying “well there’s no PROOF that X is a bad guy and we REALLY don’t want trouble.”
And you can achieve sainthood as a fair-minded anti-war person. Like Neville Chamberlain in 1938.
By the way, I DON’T take what this Govt says at face value. I look at the track record of Putin and I weigh up the balance of probabilities. Then I decide which side I’m on, because sitting on the side saying “maybe this, maybe that” is a cop out. I didn’t take what Blair and Bush said in 2003 on face value either. Of course, if they HAD been right about WMD and we’d done nothing, and given Saddam’s demonstrated previous willingness to use them, I’d have had to put my hand up and admit that I’d got that wrong. Just like the appeasers from 1935-38 got it wrong.
As I say, it’s a tough game.
PS.
Here’s a thought for those who use Iraq as their touchstone for foreign policy stances.
Spend a little time researching how Putin dealt with Grozny. Then spend a little time looking at how Putin has dealt with Aleppo. And then try to find ANY equivalence in how the West dealt with Iraq, badly mistaken though that invasion was.
And then think about which side of this argument you are on.
-
" By the way, I DON’T take what this Govt says at face value. I look at the track record of Putin and I weigh up the balance of probabilities. Then I decide which side I’m on, because sitting on the side saying “maybe this, maybe that” is a cop out. I didn’t take what Blair and Bush said in 2003 on face value either. Of course, if they HAD been right about WMD and we’d done nothing, and given Saddam’s demonstrated previous willingness to use them, I’d have had to put my hand up and admit that I’d got that wrong. Just like the appeasers from 1935-38 got it wrong. "
Excellent analysis, I couldn't agree more.
-
Guardian leading on the suspension of AIQ by Facebook, AIQ of course " harvested " all those accounts for Vote Leave / BeLeave / Veterans for Britain / The DUP and other spurious campaign .
AIQ was responsible for over £ 3.5 million of the Leave campaign over - expenditure.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/06/facebook-suspends-aggregate-iq-cambridge-analytica-vote-leave-brexit
-
Well done for getting back on topic, Hoola!
Some of the recent contributions would be better off in the "nerve agent" thread.
-
Well done for getting back on topic, Hoola!
Some of the recent contributions would be better off in the "nerve agent" thread.
Thanks, what is worrying though is the lack of interest in the way some minds have been bent . Our democracy was and probably still is under attack given the bias of our MSM and the BBC . Stories are being totally ignored, others inflated for political gain.
The Far Right and it's money is on the attack using the average man in the street. Warping his sense of the world, stealing the truth from him.
-
Note that Facebook feed showing a new 3 rd. whistleblower on the shenanigans behind the vote Leave campaigns . More money being overspent on these campaigns and more attempts to hide this by MSM . BOTH Parties seem to want this to just disappear when it's so important to our democracy.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/14/damian-collins-mp-interview-need-reform-electoral-law-digital-age
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/what-weve-discovered-in-year-investigating-dark-money-that-funded-brexit-me
-
Seems this is sorted out - I think they are doing internal investigations now . All in the interests of democracy of course.
-
Filed for bankruptcy.
https://ca-commercial.com/news/cambridge-analytica-and-scl-elections-commence-insolvency-proceedings-and-release-results-3
Done it’s job I guess. Tipped the balance in the Brexit and Trump votes before its cover was blown.
f**k me but the history books will have a field day with these times when they are written in 50 years time.
-
More difficult to bring before the courts, if the corporate entity is dissolved.
Same people and business model rebranded;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/02/cambridge-analytica-closure-questions-and-answers
On we go....any number of legal identities in a hall of mirrors looking forward.
The "Special Purpose Vehicle" route, where a company is formed as a folder to contain a specific project, which then collapses once its function is complete.
Will anything be done?
What's your guess?
-
Nothing will be done. This is a huge blow to democracy - they have got away with it !
-
Some with a fine pedigree connected with the new lifeform Emerdata;
http://uk.businessinsider.com/cambridge-analytica-executives-and-mercer-family-launch-emerdata-2018-3?r=US&IR=T
Solid citizens to a man.
Every one committed to democratic values, Hoola!
-
Some with a fine pedigree connected with the new lifeform Emerdata;
http://uk.businessinsider.com/cambridge-analytica-executives-and-mercer-family-launch-emerdata-2018-3?r=US&IR=T
Solid citizens to a man.
Every one committed to democratic values, Hoola!
Haha , I wonder if our Govt . will keep a close eye on this lot ? What a parcel of rogues up to the same tricks just under a new name .
-
Cambridge Anaglypta may have morphed, but the work continues on;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-jenna-corderoy/revealed-brexit-campaigner-obtained-data-for-millions-of
Ireland's abortion referendum in the frame now. No democracy is safe from all this.
-
Cambridge Anaglypta may have morphed, but the work continues on;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-jenna-corderoy/revealed-brexit-campaigner-obtained-data-for-millions-of
Ireland's abortion referendum in the frame now. No democracy is safe from all this.
Quite unbelievable Albie yet despite all this the general public still remain blissfully unaware of just how they are being manipulated .
Democracy my arse - it simply doesn't exist.