Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: hoolahoop on March 23, 2018, 05:38:39 am
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Did anyone watch this last night , if so did it seem to you like a balanced audience of under 30 year-olds taking part ?
It seemed like the audience were solidly pro- Brexit contrary to how this group had voted in the Referendum. Again those prepared to speak on the subject were over- whelmingly pro- Brexit in spite of all the dangers that were raised .
Finally sadly is it time to put any idea of a 2nd Referendum to bed based on the reactions of these youngsters and the lack of any groundswell of opinion that would probably have come from marches, social media etc from this group in the coming months ?
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Just out of interest why should there be a 2nd referendum?
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Raven
In a recent poll, 42% of people said they believed we’d be economically better off outside the EU.
The number of economists who believe that can be counted on not many fingers. The number of politicians who believe that can be counted on it many more fingers. Yet something like 20 million people In the country believe it. Because they were strung along by the biggest political lie in many decades. A lie that the leader of the Vite Leave campaign who came up with the lie has smugly admitted was a lie, and triumphantly claimed that it was the lie that made the difference in the vote.
If those 20 million people were told the truth about how much poorer they, personally are going to be as a result of Brexit, do you think they might be demanding a second referendum?
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BST why do you believe everyone who voted leave did so on the back of what they were told? Maybe some have based it in their own experiences of living within the EU.
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Plenty of under 30s voted to leave. They just tend to not always go on about it.
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Data suggests that the vast majority of under 30's voted to remain. My son is one. He is dismayed that so many older people voted to leave. He is happy that I wasn't one of them. He says people are stronger when they stay together rather than split up.
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Aidanstu
1) The economics is far too complex for any non-specialist to draw a rational conclusion. So we ALL listen to someone’s opinion. I’m influenced by certain people’s arguments. I assume other people are too. Are you saying people are so self-centred that they’d decide for themselves, without listening to anyone else, whether they and the country are likely to be better or worse off?
2) As I keep on saying, the very man who headed the Leave campaign has crowed that the £350m/week posters were wot won it.
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Just out of interest why should there be a 2nd referendum?
If something is voted for and a majority wins that is the rule , correct
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Draytonian
If something is voted for and a majority wins and the head of the winning side campaign later boasts openly of brazenly lying to win it and it turns out that the voters of the winning side had been profiled and bombarded with microtargetted lies?
What’s the rule then?
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Data suggests that the vast majority of under 30's voted to remain. My son is one. He is dismayed that so many older people voted to leave. He is happy that I wasn't one of them. He says people are stronger when they stay together rather than split up.
My daughter is another and would have thought it a betrayal if I had sold her generation out - of course we didn't . We were all aware of how much the EU had done for the region , yes using our money but diverting it from an Exchequer that has spent little in this region since destroying its manufacturing and industrial base in the 70/80s. Sadly we are considered in EU terms as a " poor and deprived " region - hence many of the infrastructure projects that have taken place over the last 40 years .
That money will no longer go to the poorer regions but back to the Exchequer for vanity projects and further supporting London and the South East. Expect monies to be spent disproportionately around port authorities and subsidies to large " Brexit " affected businesses ( Nissan + other manufacturers in this sector ) just for starters. We only pay in a gross figure of £ 12 billion p.a. that won't go far once the £ 350 million p.w. to the NHS is taken into account.
Then there are all those ongoing and promised projects around the country to be allowed for as well as the C.A.P. Finally we have a divorce bill to pay back annually to the EU - it doesn't look good .
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Plenty of under 30s voted to leave. They just tend to not always go on about it.
Plenty did but unfortunately it tended to be those in the most deprived regions who had seen EU(UK) monies subsidising projects that were very unlikely to have got off the ground otherwise. A pyrrhic victory for the young who sadly will bear the brunt of the future unnecessary Brexit " burden "
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BST why do you believe everyone who voted leave did so on the back of what they were told? Maybe some have based it in their own experiences of living within the EU.
Better the devil you know? You can't base how we'll be after on that we did OK before the EU.
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I think its hilarious that Doncaster voted for Brexit when you can see loads of signs pointing to EU funding in our region, do people actually think we'll do well as an area with a Tory government and no EU funding? They don't give a shit about us.
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Unfortunately the last labour government lavished money on this region, you didn't see any benefit from it because it went to Councils who didn't spend it wisely,health services that didn't spend it wisely, so called charities that didn't spend it wisely.need I go on! And what you would get was little quangos having champagne shower parties.etc a good example of how to waste Money was Action for unemployment hey blew 8 million a year and got no body they engaged with into permanent employment.
The problem with a 2million £ grant is it's for 12 months you budget to spend it in those 12 months if you only spend 600 k you have to return the rest and the fear is you only get 660 k funding the following year.
One thing that happened was a 40 % increase in council employees, that put a massive strain on Public sector pension schemes. Which is probably why we saw the perverse move to sub contracting to Private companies such as Serco and Carillion.
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Sproty. Where do you get that 40% figure from?
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Draytonian
If something is voted for and a majority wins and the head of the winning side campaign later boasts openly of brazenly lying to win it and it turns out that the voters of the winning side had been profiled and bombarded with microtargetted lies?
What’s the rule then
And you know this as fact
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I know what Dominic Cummings wrote. And I know what’s starting to come out about Cambridge Analytica? Dont these things concern you about the state of our democracy?
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Sproty. Where do you get that 40% figure from?
Apologies Billy Joseph Rowntree foundation figures show 5.4 million in 1997 peeking at 6.3 million in 2006 which is approx 16%.
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Sproty. No. That’s total public sector employment figures that you are quoting.
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So Dominic Cummings word is gospel .
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Draytonian
I’m not sure where this is going.
Dominic Cummings, who was head of the Bote Leave campaign said that he pushed the £350m/week issue, knowing that it was misleading, and says that his analysis of how the polls moved when that issue got traction (remember in the week of the vote, nearly 50% of people in a poll said they believed the £350m claim) that issue was probably the one that tipped the vote.
I don’t understand your point. Are you suggesting that he’s lying about all this?
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The thing that amazes me about the so called 350 million quid thing is that, at the time it was common knowledge that although we allegedly paid out that much, we also got back around 200/250 million quid a week as well (apologies if that figure isn’t accurate as I have forgotten now what was actually quoted).
Why didnt people take that onboard as well.
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I like the Norwegian model, what they pay in is earmarked for grants to Norway, scholarships etc. That's very fair. Particularly as British governments tend to struggle when it comes to funding out north of Watford long term.
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Hound
I’m going to be accused of being condescending here, but here goes.
1) It is an established fact that 40+% of people in a poll in the week of the vote said they believed the £350m claim.
2) As you say, it was extensively discussed in the media that the £350m claim was, at the very least, misleading.
3) There are only two possible conclusions to draw. Either that 40-odd% simply didn’t engage enough with papers and the media who extensively pointed out that it was a lie. Or they heard that the £350m was a lie and they shut their eyes and ears to those telling them it was a lie, because they wanted to believe it. There is no other conclusion.
By the way, this is PRECISELY the way that Cambridge Analytica (who, through a front, were paid more than £3m by the Vote Leave organisation) operate. They identify people who can be targeted by social media, with lies which buttress their fears. They are quite open about doing that. And they are the biggest threat to democracy on the planet.
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This is the way it works. This Twitter photo was spun out yesterday while there were hundreds of anti-gun marches across the USA.
https://mobile.twitter.com/donmoyn/status/977700330954809345/photo/1
That’s a photo of a girl who survived the Florida school shooting, and who has been a poster-girl for the gun-restraint movement tearing up the Constitution. Any right-thinking American would be horrified and would be very much against anything she had to say. Understandably.
I’m sure the hundreds of thousands who saw it would be confirmed in their view that progressives are anti-American.
Trouble is, THIS was the original photo before it was doctored and tweeted out.
https://mobile.twitter.com/donmoyn/status/977700330954809345/photo/2
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I think its hilarious that Doncaster voted for Brexit when you can see loads of signs pointing to EU funding in our region, do people actually think we'll do well as an area with a Tory government and no EU funding? They don't give a shit about us.
Is is an irony but for those monies ( I know most were from our pockets ) being diverted our way this town would have been left to rot by the Tories and Labour for that matter as it is we have a town to be proud of again .
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BST, on the other hand, I voted remain not least because of the claims of an immediate recession, and George Osborne's threat that a budget with tax rises and spending cuts would be implemented if we voted to leave.
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And back to Brexit.
Dominic Cummings is recorded on video crowing about what the Vote Leave organisation did in the last week of the referendum campaign.
He said that they identified 7 million voters who they thought were susceptible to being frightened into voting Leave. He doesn’t say how they identified these 7 million, but given that Vote Leave paid a Cambridge Analytica front company £3million, it doesn’t take a genius to guess.
He said that in the last week, they sent 1.5 billion social networking messages to these 7 million people. Messages with attachments like this.
https://goo.gl/images/SRs1Ss
Lies that are impossible to counter because they are being whispered directly into people’s ears.
This really isn’t about sour grapes from a losing side. It’s a horrifying undermining of democracy. Every single one of us needs to be aware that we are being played. If you see this sort of shit coming in with nothing to back it up, be skeptics. And keep your mind open.
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BB
This is truly like sticking pins in my eyes but I’ll try it again.
The Remain side said there would be an economic shock if we voted Leave. They said that would depress economic activity relative to the case of us voting Remain (they DID make that qualification - clearly - but you never seem to remember that) and they said that the public finances would take a big hit.
Precisely those two things happened. Our economic growth has fallen by something north of 2% per annum. Our public finances have been hammered by the lower economic performance.
If we had stuck to Osborne’s plan to eliminate the deficit by 2019, we would now be having huge tax rises and spending cuts. Osborne has gone and Hammond has decided that we won’t eliminate the deficit until 2025. And we’ll STILL need eye watering public spending cuts to make that target.
The predictions from Osborne about the economic effect of the vote WERE correct. That is unarguable (although I don’t doubt you’ll find another way to argue about it). Osborne stupidly made it a black and white thing in terms of what the consequences for tax and spending would be but in principle he was right. Our taxes ARE higher and our spending IS lower than the alternative Universe where we voted Remain.
The Leave claims, by contrast, were out and out lies. We never paid £350m/week. Turkey wasn’t joining the EU. Full stop. Lies.
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BST, I'm sure the truth is out there somewhere. I'll try again to get to it.
In words of Yes or No;
1) Was there an immediate recession?
2) Did George Osborne's threaten an immediate budget with tax rises and spending cuts to be implemented if we voted to leave?
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I like the Norwegian model, what they pay in is earmarked for grants to Norway, scholarships etc. That's very fair. Particularly as British governments tend to struggle when it comes to funding out north of Watford long term.
Now that I DO agree with which is where the EU Development fund designed to assist poor regions came into force very much to our benefit as a " poor and deprived " region - yes the 5th -8th largest economy ( depends on how you now measure it ) in the world has such disparities of wealth that the EU put in measures to assist these areas and not just here - Southern Italy being a similar case in mind.
The idea of using in fact in a way " forcing" central governments to finance areas and regions long neglected has worked.
Sproty I don't know your age but believe me DMBC and it's resources have grown immeasurably over the last 40 years almost to city status . That EU money has been the stimulus for much needed economic growth far beyond anything I could have imagined 40/50 years ago . It meant that other bodies felt that this town was worth investing in . Look around you everyone and look at what you can do at any weekend in the calendar, how clean our air is , how beautiful are our parks and wildlife park, how we can fly from OUR airport or go to one of the top 5 racecourses in the country or enjoy our community stadium . Then there are our wetlands and moors .
This is NOT the same town of my youth- yes it still has lingering problems but we do have an entrepreneurial spirit and have managed to start up new businesses and attract huge multi- national companies into our borough. It's full steam ahead for our town providing we can still secure funding.
A lot of this has been done on the back of the EU and I'm proud of the association we had. Now it's back to local government fighting to secure funding for our borough from a government that has proven to be , in the past, a bad partner that destroyed this region .
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Jesus wept BB do you have the memory of a goldfish? It’s every week that we go through this. Go and read how I replied to you last week. And the week before. And the week before.
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The thing that amazes me about the so called 350 million quid thing is that, at the time it was common knowledge that although we allegedly paid out that much, we also got back around 200/250 million quid a week as well (apologies if that figure isn’t accurate as I have forgotten now what was actually quoted).
Why didnt people take that onboard as well.
Not quite hound in reality because of a discount we got when Thatcher was PM , we pay in some £ 8.6 billion p.a. after the rebate or roughly £ 250 million p.w. roughly £4 per person per week. ( £ 208 per person / per year
Yes we are giving all that we got from being a member of the EU in exchange for that !
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I like the Norwegian model, what they pay in is earmarked for grants to Norway, scholarships etc. That's very fair. Particularly as British governments tend to struggle when it comes to funding out north of Watford long term.
Sproty
I’m not sure what you are meaning by “What they pay in is earmarked for grants to Norway.”
It certainly isn’t in Horizon2020 R&D funding. Every country pays a certain percentage into a pot then there are fiercely competitive proposals submitted from companies and Universities in each country to try to win that money. If you, as a country, don’t put in good proposals, you get zero funding. There is nothing ring fenced for particular countries.
As it happens, the UK does very well in this process. Until the Brexit vote, we were getting more funding than Germany even though Germany paid far more in than we do. And we were getting far more funding than France even though France pays in a similar amount to us. This is vital funding because it underpins our future as a high-tech economy. Now we’re going to have to find that extra money from our own tax payers. Or not do the R&D.
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Jesus wept BB do you have the memory of a goldfish? It’s every week that we go through this. Go and read how I replied to you last week. And the week before. And the week before.
BST, sorry to carp on. I'll ask you again next week in the hope of an answer.
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It was the Treasury who predicted a recession.
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Raven
In a recent poll, 42% of people said they believed we’d be economically better off outside the EU.
The number of economists who believe that can be counted on not many fingers. The number of politicians who believe that can be counted on it many more fingers. Yet something like 20 million people In the country believe it. Because they were strung along by the biggest political lie in many decades. A lie that the leader of the Vite Leave campaign who came up with the lie has smugly admitted was a lie, and triumphantly claimed that it was the lie that made the difference in the vote.
If those 20 million people were told the truth about how much poorer they, personally are going to be as a result of Brexit, do you think they might be demanding a second referendum?
Sorry BST but I'm just a thick lad from Woodlands, a politician "lies" to us and because of that we should have a 2nd referendum, but when politicians "lie" to us in a General Election there is no clamour for a re-vote. Am I missing something? What is the difference? Are you saying that intelligent people only should vote on these matters?
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Glyn. What the Treasury predicted was a large and immediate reduction in economic growth and a large and immediate hit to the Govt’s finances in the case of a Brexit vote IN COMPARISON TO THE COUNTETFACTUAL CASE OF NOT HAVING A BREXIT VOTE.
They were 100% accurate with that prediction. Those two things HAVE happened.
BB is obsessing about the fact that Osborne extrapolated from that that a Brexit vote would lead to a recession and to tax cuts and spending cuts to balance the books.
As I’ve pointed out to him times without number without effect, Osborne was not lying in saying that. What he WAS doing was making a couple of implicit assumptions.
1) That the global economy wouldn’t go into boom mode, drag us along in its wake and save us from a technical recession.
2) That he, Osborne, would stay as Chancellor and would remain committed to eliminating the deficit by 2019. If he had done, it is a matter of simple arithmetic that he would have had to sharply increase taxes and/or reduce spending. The massive hit to the public finances HAS happened. By pushing out the date by which we will balance the books to 2025, Hammond has avoided the need to increase taxes or reduce spending. But the penalty is that it will be another half decade before spending can start to rise significantly, or taxes be reduced.
BB is clever enough to follow that argument, but he’s going through his weekly phase of pretending to be too thick to follow it, so he can show how clever he is by demonstrating that both sides lied
They didn’t both lie. Equating the £350m/week lie and the “Turkey is joining the EU” lie with the predictions of the economic effect of a Brexit vote is something that would only be done by someone who either doesn’t think through the issues or someone who is bored and wants a pointless argument.
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Raven.
I’m not saying that at all. Not in the slightest.
I DO think people have a public duty to properly engage in discussions and debate and I DO think that something has gone dreadfully wrong when you go into something as crucial as this one with 42% of people believing something that is a lie on an appalling scale and a lie that had been accepted as a lie by all the mainstream media outlets who had stopped using it. I assume you worry about that too?
The thing that went wrong is slowly coming into the public domain. It was a focussed and concentrated approach by Vote Leave and Cambridge Analytica to identify people who were receptive to a lie like that, then bombard them with personally targeted messages.
I DO think that is a threat to the democratic process. If someone says a lie on the TV, there’s a reasonable chance that the other side can put the opposite point of view and redress the balance. But if someone is only getting their news and views through social media, and that social media has been hijacked to pump lies directly into their feed, how the hell do you counteract that? That’s not calling people who fell for that “unintelligent”. I haven’t done that and I would never do that so please do not suggest that I did. It demeans the discussion.
I DO think that those people have been deliberately and very skilfully misled in a way that we have never seen before and in a way that is almost certainly illegal.
Final point. This IS different to a General Election. If you feel you’ve been misled at a GE, you can vote the other way in 5 years time. What do you do if you’ve been misled over Brexit?
PS. If you REALLY want to hear someone calling people who voted for Brexit gullible, listen to the words coming out of Dominic Cummings’s odious gob on C4 News last night. They showed him at a presentation after the vote, highlighting how they won the vote. By sending 1.5billion targeted messages to 7million targeted voters by e-mail, Facebook and Twitter in the week before the vote. Lies about the £350m. Lies about Turkey and immigrants.
He spent £3.5m spread those lies. Presumably he did it because he assumed that a fair fraction of the people they were aimed at would buy them.
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I really hope our economy fails and the country goes to the wall when we leave - otherwise all the posts predicting doom and gloom will have been a waste of peoples time.......... that would be enormously tragic... :blink:
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MM
Got me bang to rights mate. Of COURSE I want our country to lose something north of £500bn over the next decade so I can be a smug t**t and say “told you so”.
f**k me...
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BST, I am merely pointing out that voters decisions were based on both promises from the Leave campaigners and threats from Remain campaigners. Equally, some of the promises and threats can be called untruths at this point.
If another vote were to take place at this moment in time, I dare suggest that some Leavers would now vote Remain, but on the other hand, I believe that some Remainers would now vote leave, based on the untruths of both parties.
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So...because although the British economy has taken a big hit, just because it wasn't as big a hit as was threatened Remainers would decide it was a big lie and change their mind and decide to vote Leave instead. Aye, makes perfect sense.
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BB
And once again, I say to you that there is no correspondence whatsoever between one side lying (£350m, Turkey) and getting the economic argument totally wrong (claiming we’d do better economically after a Brexit vote) saying we could stay in the Single Market during the campaign then after the vote insisting that the Will of the People is that we have to leave the SM and being in total denial about the Ireland issue
and the other side getting the economic argument broadly correct (our economy and public finances HAVE tanked since the vote) and pointing out that the Irish border was a hell of a problem to solve.
Saying that the two sides were both untrustworthy is, frankly, daft. It’s like saying that hammering someone over the head with a baseball bat and slapping them in the face are equally appalling assaults. I genuinely do not understand why you refuse to engage with any of the facts and instead keep coming round the hamster wheel to the point you first started from. You’re a smart lad, but you’re sounding daft with this “Yeah but Osborne said” trope.
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Glyn
No. It HAS BEEN as big a hit as was predicted. That is the point! It has been exactly as big a hit as was predicted. As I keep screaming, the rest of the developed world has had a boom since summer 2016. If we’d had the same boom, we’d now be about £60bn richer as a nation than we are. We’ve lost that because we are the only advanced large economy on the planet whose growth has shrunk since the vote.
The fact that we’re not in recession is irrelevant. We HAVE had the economic hit that was forecast.
If I keep repeating it enough, BB might get the message.
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BST. The only reason why Osbourne keeps popping back up is that you refuse to admit that he said there would be an imminent recession and a budget with tax rises and spending cuts.
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No! I KNOW he said that!
And I’ve spent precious hours explaining the context of that to you. And you never once give any impression that you’ve read what I’ve written.
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THANK YOU!
Imagine the story of the vet who examined a dog and told it's owner that it only had weeks to live? The owner decided to go against the vet's advice to euthanise and took the dog home. Weeks, and then months went by, and the dog was still alive and happy. Years went by and the dog was still alive and happy. Then, ten years after the vet's prognosis, the poor bugger died.
Aye, the vet was right, after all!
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Well what a shit analogy that was.
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Yep. Lost me.
The analogy only remotely works if you accept that we are going along happily.
BB obviously thinks that the UK, now, today, already being £60bn poorer than we should have been after the vote, and projected to be £0.5tr poorer by the middle of the 2020s is a cause to be happy.
Personally, I reckon someone who is happy in those conditions puts winning an argument above caring for the country. Me, as someone who loves this country and wants it to be a success, I’m f**king livid.
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Ah well, you can't win 'em all!
BST, would it make you happier if we were all as depressed as you?
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A better analogy would be a man who refused to take his dog to the vets because he didn't like experts, and then when the dog died a week later the bloke said he was right all along because the dog still lasted a week.
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Na, that's a shit analogy.
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I really hope our economy fails and the country goes to the wall when we leave - otherwise all the posts predicting doom and gloom will have been a waste of peoples time.......... that would be enormously tragic... :blink:
No-one should hope that happens but most experts believe it will be MAYhem.
The late1960-70s were difficult times and many a family struggled , I know mine was one of them - I wouldn't wish that on everyone . There are far too many with short memories on here , people who forget the destruction wrought on our region by Maggie and her gang of thieves. People that have virtually signed us up for decades of not just austerity but extreme austerity for our young
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BB
Who mentioned being depressed? I’m not depressed about this. I’m f**king angry. It might help if a few more got f**king angry about the way they have been played and the way our country is going.
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THANK YOU!
Imagine the story of the vet who examined a dog and told it's owner that it only had weeks to live? The owner decided to go against the vet's advice to euthanise and took the dog home. Weeks, and then months went by, and the dog was still alive and happy. Years went by and the dog was still alive and happy. Then, ten years after the vet's prognosis, the poor bugger died.
Aye, the vet was right, after all!
F**k me can we move on there are 100s of posts in different threads where the so called Project Fear was/ has been proven to be Reality.
Fact the world economy has been going through a strong patch over the last 12 months and of course the UK has ridden on that crest of a wave too as PART of the EU , however we have not performed as well as most and we are not expected to have growth above 1.5% over the next five years ....a dismal forecast.
As Billy pointed out countless times but for Quantitive Easing , the economy would be in a total mess. Our people are poorer and are set to be poorer going forward post Brexit.
To put things into perspective , BB you were given a figure Of - £ 60 billion , that's the extra money we would have in the Treasury coffers - this would have been sufficient to pay the " divorce bill" and still leave enough change left over to subsidise the NHS and Community Care budgets
This all pre-supposes that you don't think that BST is talking out of his arse all the time.
I, like him, am just as angry about the way that our democracy has been hijacked.
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Hoolahoop, my argument is that contrary to others beliefs, I think there were untruths told by both Leavers AND Remainers, and votes were swayed by them. It doesn't matter how many times you want to shoot down my opinion that the above is true, I am only the messenger. The fact of the matter is that Many, many people have the same opinion.
I believe if there was another referendum, people on BOTH sides would vote the other way.
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Hoolahoop, my argument is that contrary to others beliefs, I think there were untruths told by both Leavers AND Remainers, and votes were swayed by them. It doesn't matter how many times you want to shoot down my opinion that the above is true, I am only the messenger. The fact of the matter is that Many, many people have the same opinion.
I believe if there was another referendum, people on BOTH sides would vote the other way.
NOBODY but nobody on here has ever disputed that but it is a matter of degree and believe me the economy has taken a kicking , why do you think the Chancellor has put off eliminating the deficit until 2025. Why do you think that your Council tax bill has gone up to support local services ? Why do you think that EVERY Govt. Dept. is screaming out for some more resources just to stand still !
No-one disagrees with you that Osborne's hit hasnt happened , its simply as has been explained to you countless times that the world's economy has performed far better than anticipated - however OUR performance with the exception of our strong ( pretend almost full employment) lags way behind even the weakest countries in the EU which incidentally we are still a part of !!
As for employment - is it real employment with 0 contract hours , the sick made to work and kids being churned through unis and colleges in ever greater numbers who might otherwise be on that dole queue. Look around at the massive growth in the food bank sector - look at the collection points in your local supermarket.
As for the Leave/ Brexit lies , exaggerations and deceit then look no further than the £ 350 million a week to the NHS con , the invasion of millions of Turks, the unelected EU Parliament and of course the massive overspend and bending of the Referendum vote by the Leave and DUP campaigns - read it man it's there on the Guardian webpages now being churned out . This shit has been suppressed by the establishment for well over the year . Bentley Bullet you don't benefit from the actions of this cabal rather you will be financially hurt by it as will most of the country . You should be fighting THIS rather than questioning constantly the way successive Chancellors have sought to deal with and represent the damage done to our economy.
Believe me given another vote Remain would win by a country mile and this shocking lot would be out on a limb. Did you really vote Remain, because if you did then you made the right choice and Osborne's supposed labelled * Project Fear * wouldnt be worrying you so much . It seems that the Leave campaign's primary message that you should laugh at rather than fear it ; is still working on you .
It was all about the brave brexiters ( read musketeers ) against the unpatriotic " moaners " and for you perversely it's still working ....
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"NOBODY but nobody on here has ever disputed that" (untruths were told on both sides)
Yes they have!
"Why do you think that your Council tax bill has gone up to support local services" ?
It always did pre Brexit!
"Why do you think that EVERY Govt. Dept. is screaming out for some more resources just to stand still"!
They always did pre Brexit!
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"NOBODY but nobody on here has ever disputed that" (untruths were told on both sides)
Yes they have!
"Why do you think that your Council tax bill has gone up to support local services" ?
It always did pre Brexit!
"Why do you think that EVERY Govt. Dept. is screaming out for some more resources just to stand still"!
They always did pre Brexit!
Yes it was always said that Project Fear might not result in an immediate impact as suggested by Osborne's economics - nevertheless the economy has been severely damaged .
Look at your Council Tax bill it has an extra PRECEPT charge on it
Then you need to watch what's happening , you are deliberately ignoring things - it's not good out there !
It's a waste of time talking to you - you voted Leave .
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So you claim that I voted to leave. It's with that final untruth that I'm leaving this discussion.
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So you claim that I voted to leave. It's with that final untruth that I'm leaving this discussion.
Good because all you've done since the beginning of this has been to attempt to break down the arguments of the Remain side - accepting none of the arguments against the Leave campaign .
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BB
This is how politics works.
At the top level you have the principles. Look at what the principles were underpinning the Leave and Remain arguments.
Leave:
We’d be economically better off outside than if we stayed in.
Remain: We’d be economically worse off outside than if we stayed in.
There is no question which side was right on that level. None whatsoever. The economic hit that was predicted by Remain HAS happened and all the serious predictions are that it will continue to happen over the next 5-10 years. The only counter to that which Leave has is that there’ll be some fairy dust sprinkled over the economy.
Politics then works by distilling that down to bite sized chunks because the Electorate doesn’t want to wade through economic detail.
Leave said: We’d be better off by £350/week. That is a lie, pure and simple. They knew that. They no longer claim that.
Sensible Remainers said the economic cost would be a long, slow relative decline. That IS happening. Osborne tried to distill that further by claiming there would be an immediate recession. That was a silly thing to claim because it didn’t take account of the rest of the world’s performance. If he’d said “there will be a recession ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL” he would have been correct. It was a foolish over-egging but by no measure was it a lie to match the £350m/week claim.
You can do a similar analysis on Turkey, on Ireland, on the willingness of the EU to negotiate a wonderful deal with us. On all counts, Remain were broadly correct in what they said. Leave either ignored the issue and said it’s be alright (Ireland, negotiations) or lied outright (Turkey).
BB. You can keep on insisting that the two sides lied equally, but they didn’t. Plain and simple.
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There's obviously more than a few who voted brexit on here. Could one of you, if not all of you, give your honest opinions, based on facts, that we are better off outside the EU? Be it for economical reasons (e.g. we will be better off, more trade etc), political reasons, (e.g. no EU red tape), social reasons (e.g immigration) etc...
Remember, base it on FACTS given by multiple credible sources i.e. not just politicians and certainly no opinion piece in a newspaper ...
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..........Seems unsurprisingly enough to be " no takers " on this one bjw on ANY question.
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There's obviously more than a few who voted brexit on here. Could one of you, if not all of you, give your honest opinions, based on facts, that we are better off outside the EU? Be it for economical reasons (e.g. we will be better off, more trade etc), political reasons, (e.g. no EU red tape), social reasons (e.g immigration) etc...
Remember, base it on FACTS given by multiple credible sources i.e. not just politicians and certainly no opinion piece in a newspaper ...
As no-one has replied to your invite, reverse it and tell me how we will be worse off by leaving don't just paste up links to articles etc put it in plain English so that a thicky like me can understand it.
As a point of interest I didn't vote as I was one of the great unwashed at Glasto, had I voted I would have voted remain
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Raven
It’s really very simple.
We are currently part of a customs union and free market which covers a richer group of people than any other market in the world.
We have the ability to make and sell things to 450million people over the Channel who are very rich by global standards. We can sell things to them with no barriers whatsoever. Equally, we can buy the things they sell.
We can’t do that with stuff from China, India, USA, Canada, South Korea etc. There’s paperwork to fill in. If you want to sell a widget made in Donny to someone in Oklahoma, YOU, the seller have to prove that the widget satisfies American Health and Safety and environmental requirements. Then the buyer has to pay customs costs when they import it.
Every sane economist knows that the world becomes a richer place if we remove barriers to trade. Putting barriers in the way of trade makes the things we buy from abroad more expensive. And it protects inefficient companies at home from competition, so they have no spur to improve. But trade agreements are brutal things. The strong hammer the weak. The strong say “you want to sell your Donny widgets in Oklahoma? Grand. But in return, we want you to privatise your NHS and let our massive medical companies have the chance to run it and privatise it. Or our chlorine washed chicken to be exported to the UK and sold in your shops.”
WE are choosing to leave the richest CU and SM in history. WE are choosing to make it harder for our companies to do business with Europe. Everyone knows that decision will make our economy less profitable. That’s beyond argument.
So people say that we’ll be able to cut deals with USA or China that will compensate for that loss. But they have never said what the numbers are. And they have never said how UK on its own, with an economy 5 times smaller than USA or China, can cut a deal that will benefit the UK, when the EU, which is economically as strong as USA or China hasn’t been able to do.
Now you have politicians like Johnson, Gove, Fox and Farage, with a track record of lying through their teeth telling us it’ll be OK but not telling us HOW it will be OK. But you also have economists with a track record of getting predictions right saying there is no way that any trade deals with other countries can possibly come close to making up what we will lose from leaving the EU.
Who do you believe?
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In addition to Billy's points Raven on how membership of the EU gives our businesses access to the largest free-trade bloc on the planet, it also protects the same business from competition by cheaper foreign made imports. By imposing a tariff on those imports.
In an earlier post Billy mentioned the economist Patrick Minford as the only major economist to say that Brexit will be good for the country. What Billy didn't say is that yes Minford did predict Brexit would be good for the wealthy in the country, cheaper imports, more buying power, less restriction of movement on money - but in return it would 'almost eliminate manufacturing in the UK'.
It would be a strange person to think that's a benefit from Brexit but then again we are living in strange times.
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I'm no economist and know very little about trade, but what you have said there, seem to be opinionated thoughts rather than fact. I must confess I don't read many newspapers or watch that much TV news or politics programmes but both sides merely seem to be pedalling opinions, are there any hard facts either way. People on both sides seem to be getting very worked up about "the lies" that each side are coming out with but what are the hard facts or is it all speculation. as to who do I believe, well I have never believed a word that comes out of a politicians mouth and certainly wonder about a lot of theories that economists come out with as I have said I am just a thicky, the average bloke on the street but as BJW has asked for FACTS from the leave side what are the FACTS from the remain side or is it all based purely on opinion on both sides
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I'm no economist and know very little about trade, but what you have said there, seem to be opinionated thoughts rather than fact. I must confess I don't read many newspapers or watch that much TV news or politics programmes but both sides merely seem to be pedalling opinions, are there any hard facts either way. People on both sides seem to be getting very worked up about "the lies" that each side are coming out with but what are the hard facts or is it all speculation. as to who do I believe, well I have never believed a word that comes out of a politicians mouth and certainly wonder about a lot of theories that economists come out with as I have said I am just a thicky, the average bloke on the street but as BJW has asked for FACTS from the leave side what are the FACTS from the remain side or is it all based purely on opinion on both sides
How is the imposition of trade barriers opinion and not fact??
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Then we haven't even started with dearer holidays, visas, holiday insurance ( when the ehic card goes) , investment in our universities , Euratom, European Medicines Agency, employment and training of border guards, possible loss of Erasmus + assistance from the EU that let our brightest expand their knowledge, miles of tail backs at our ports and land borders , the damage to the Good Friday Agreement between N.Ireland and Eire, Gibraltar and Spain has difficulties too. I'm bored now sorry there's loads more areas of difficulty. A big one being a future Immigration Policy - see we NEED immigrants doctors, nurses, care workers, engineers , scientists , pickers/ sorters for fruit and arable farms etc.
Those are facts but I guess you knew about most of the above . PAGE after PAGE of it all on this Off Topic section but I'm not sure if you are pulling our leg but I think you might
NOW OVER TO THE BREXITERS TO GIVE YOU THEIR VISION OF THE BREXIT DIVIDEND..........
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I'm no economist and know very little about trade, but what you have said there, seem to be opinionated thoughts rather than fact. I must confess I don't read many newspapers or watch that much TV news or politics programmes but both sides merely seem to be pedalling opinions, are there any hard facts either way. People on both sides seem to be getting very worked up about "the lies" that each side are coming out with but what are the hard facts or is it all speculation. as to who do I believe, well I have never believed a word that comes out of a politicians mouth and certainly wonder about a lot of theories that economists come out with as I have said I am just a thicky, the average bloke on the street but as BJW has asked for FACTS from the leave side what are the FACTS from the remain side or is it all based purely on opinion on both sides
Are you not aware of the spurious assessment reports.
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Raven
I’m not sure where to go with this. You don’t want me to post links, so how can I demonstrate that the stuff I’m saying is fact?
But there ARE facts out there. Here’s a few.
In late 2015/early 2016, the world economy was very sluggish. Ours was doing a bit better than most. Not spectacularly good, but ok. Our economy was growing fastest of the Big 7 (UK, USA, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan).
That matters because in the long run, the faster your economy grows, the richer you are as a country.
Then we had the Brexit vote.
Our economy started growing much less quickly. But EVERY ONE of the other Big 7 countries saw their economies start to grow MUCH quicker. We were the only one who didn’t. So, having been top performer of the Big 7 in 2016, we’re now second bottom of the table.
Those are facts. Demonstrable facts. I can post links if you want but you said you didn’t want them.
The fact is, the rest of the developed world has entered a phase where they are nearly all getting richer, quicker than we are. The overwhelming majority of economists said that is we voted Leave, precisely that would happen.
It’s happening.
What more proof are you wanting?
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How many people that voted for Brexit voted for the type of Brexit we seem to be approaching?
Common sense seems to be very thin on the ground whilst self-interest is in open view. I voted to be in a trading block in the 70s not a Federal Europe.