Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: hoolahoop on July 17, 2018, 09:25:43 am
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Many like to compare the UK to Germany and I thought a complete and thorough comparison of the two countries would help some when framing their arguments in future .
Obviously the populations of both countries are considerably different but often I have seen statements about both countries made without due regard to any actual facts. Whilst there are many interesting comparisons, some of these figures make quite scary reading in quite different ways for both countries and quite simply we and they can't go on this way, draw your own conclusions :-
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/united-kingdom.germany
It seems that our balance of payments can't continue at a rate of c.- $100 billion p.a.
The German demographics particularly on % of retirees/ approaching retirement stand out as a major approaching problem of near crisis
proportions .
The huge difference in Export performance :-
$436.5 billion (2017 est.) UK
$407.3 billion (2016 est.) UK
$1.401 trillion (2017 est.) Germany
$1.322 trillion (2016 est.) Germany
As a point of reference here are the export figures for the Netherlands
$526.4 billion (2017 est.)
$495.4 billion (2016 est.)
Yes I had to look at them twice as they are the exports of a country 1/4 the size of the UK from a country with a population of ONLY 17 million people !
It's an astounding performance !
Health :-
Maternal mortality rate 9 deaths/100,000 live births (2015 est.)
6 deaths/100,000 live births (2015 est.)
Health expenditures 9.1% of GDP (2014)
11.3% of GDP (2014)
Physicians density 2.81 physicians/1,000 population (2015)
4.13 physicians/1,000 population (2014)
Hospital bed density 2.9 beds/1,000 population (2011)
8.2 beds/1,000 population (2011)
Obesity - adult prevalence rate 27.8% (2016)
22.3% (2016)
* in each case the 1st figure is that of the UK *
Our commentators like to think of the negotiations as being between 2 equal partners as can be seen by the above : we get nowhere near what will be an even bigger rival post- Brexit.
YES I KNOW WE WON THE WAR WITHOUT ANY OUTSIDE HELP .
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I think you should start taking advantage of the good weather and get out more
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
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Keith
No. He’s saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why you can’t be in Europe and still have a successful economy.
Our economy has under performed not because we are in Europe but because it’s been horrendously badly managed. Leaving Europe won’t make things better.
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Maybe ok could let him answer for himself
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I think you should start taking advantage of the good weather and get out more
Don't worry about my tan - I can afford the time but thanks for the advice .
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Keith
No. He’s saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why you can’t be in Europe and still have a successful economy.
Our economy has under performed not because we are in Europe but because it’s been horrendously badly managed. Leaving Europe won’t make things better.
Exactly and we have a retirement and social care time bomb ticking - Germany already has reached that stage .
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
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Keith
No. He’s saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why you can’t be in Europe and still have a successful economy.
Our economy has under performed not because we are in Europe but because it’s been horrendously badly managed. Leaving Europe won’t make things better.
tosh
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Well that’s that one sorted then. Never mind discussion, marshalling facts and drawing logical conclusions. Boomstick has spoken.
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
Yes I agree SM the entreport of Rotterdam being the culprit.
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The culprit?
Damn those nefarious Europeans for secretly building one of the biggest sports in the world at the point where the most heavily trafficked waterway in Europe meets the sea.
It’s this evil facilitation of trade between nations that is precisely the reason that we should leave Europe.
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Keith
No. He’s saying there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why you can’t be in Europe and still have a successful economy.
Our economy has under performed not because we are in Europe but because it’s been horrendously badly managed. Leaving Europe won’t make things better.
tosh
You are a Grade A plonker - it's a waste of time trying to engage with you . Here's my one word for you :-
DIPSHIT .
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
Much like our gold transfers then - they are their exports . These are " even '' playing fields.
Check out their average income per.head and you wouldn't be so blasé. What do you think goes backwards and forwards through our ports ....doh !
Martin why don't you try supporting your argument ?
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
Yes I agree SM the entreport of Rotterdam being the culprit.
PMSL entreport indeed , real culprits aren't they ?
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what percentage of Germany's exports are from their car industry ? anyone know ?
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About 12%. Or 16% if you also include vehicle parts.
Your point being?
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what about
cars, car parts, engine parts, trucks, transmissions, control modules, tractors, excavation machinery and internal combustion engines?
as a percentage.
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I'm guessing 16% minus 12%..?
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I give up.
Night night Boomstick.
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
Yes I agree SM the entreport of Rotterdam being the culprit.
If you're talking about Rotterdam being the focal point for transhipments and Bonded Warehouses, then any of those goods aren't technically imported into The Netherlands as they aren't in Free Circulation - so wouldn't count as Dutch imports or exports.
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
Yes I agree SM the entreport of Rotterdam being the culprit.
If you're talking about Rotterdam being the focal point for transhipments and Bonded Warehouses, then any of those goods aren't technically imported into The Netherlands as they aren't in Free Circulation - so wouldn't count as Dutch imports or exports.
Hmm silent majority seems to think they are . Oh to get the export figures up by being one huge container port ......We will be shortly lorry parks everywhere at this rate!
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
Yes I agree SM the entreport of Rotterdam being the culprit.
If you're talking about Rotterdam being the focal point for transhipments and Bonded Warehouses, then any of those goods aren't technically imported into The Netherlands as they aren't in Free Circulation - so wouldn't count as Dutch imports or exports.
Hmm silent majority seems to think they are . Oh to get the export figures up by being one huge container port ......We will be shortly lorry parks everywhere at this rate!
Don't do that Hoola. I never said that at all. I didn't even mention Rotterdam.
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I didn't intend to become involved in this, I have enough on my plate! However seeing as you wish to slight me when all I did was offer some advice then maybe this will change your mind.
Firstly here are some notes from a recent presentation and then a slide which pretty much says it all;
I want to address five points in this presentation. First I will explain what I mean when I talk of re-exports. As always in social science, defining a phenomenon turns out to be rather difficult. However doing this is essential for analysis and discussion. Then I will say something about re-exports in the Netherlands. This discussion will be short as the Dutch case is well discusses since the first analysis of CPB in 2002. Sketch of Dutch situation is needed to analyse the consequences in point 4 and 5. Then we come to the interesting part of the presentation. Is the re-export trend a Dutch ‘disease’ or not?
There is an international re-export trend, which has an impact on the growth of world trade. Finally, I will discuss the consequences.
Relevant world trade is calculated as the weighted sum of the volumegrowth of imports, where the weights are based on the export share of a country. E.g. The volumegrowth of German imports weights for 25% in the computation of the relevant world trade of the Netherlands.
However, re-exported goods are registered as imports in the statistics of at least two countries. For example, the T-shirt produced in China is shipped to Europe via Hong Kong to Rotterdam, where it is transported to Germany. Compared to the production of goods, trade is ‘blown up’.
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However, re-exported goods are registered as imports in the statistics of at least two countries. For example, the T-shirt produced in China is shipped to Europe via Hong Kong to Rotterdam, where it is transported to Germany. Compared to the production of goods, trade is ‘blown up’.
In this example China and Germany will be noted as the exporting and importing country respectively. Hong Kong and Rotterdam will not, as there will be no Customs Declarations entering them into those territories - they are just transhipment points. Of course there will be records showing that through-trade but that is different information to full import/export.
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However, re-exported goods are registered as imports in the statistics of at least two countries. For example, the T-shirt produced in China is shipped to Europe via Hong Kong to Rotterdam, where it is transported to Germany. Compared to the production of goods, trade is ‘blown up’.
In this example China and Germany will be noted as the exporting and importing country respectively. Hong Kong and Rotterdam will not, as there will be no Customs Declarations entering them into those territories - they are just transhipment points. Of course there will be records showing that through-trade but that is different information to full import/export.
You need to read that again Glyn. It quite clearly states re-exported goods are registered as imports in at least two countries. Take a look at the bar chart above and tell me that re-exports are not affecting the claimed export levels of the NL and then compare the total manufactured exports of the UK and NL.
As I said, I didn't intend to delve into this subject but having worked as an Export Manager for a multi national organisation I do know that these things are not straight forward.
The end.
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However, re-exported goods are registered as imports in the statistics of at least two countries. For example, the T-shirt produced in China is shipped to Europe via Hong Kong to Rotterdam, where it is transported to Germany. Compared to the production of goods, trade is ‘blown up’.
In this example China and Germany will be noted as the exporting and importing country respectively. Hong Kong and Rotterdam will not, as there will be no Customs Declarations entering them into those territories - they are just transhipment points. Of course there will be records showing that through-trade but that is different information to full import/export.
You need to read that again Glyn. It quite clearly states re-exported goods are registered as imports in at least two countries. Take a look at the bar chart above and tell me that re-exports are not affecting the claimed export levels of the NL and then compare the total manufactured exports of the UK and NL.
As I said, I didn't intend to delve into this subject but having worked as an Export Manager for a multi national organisation I do know that these things are not straight forward.
The end.
To me it looks like they're counting the physical movement of the goods as an export. The figures aren't even based on the trade statistics which are fed from Customs Declarations. When goods go into a Bonded Warehouse the Customs Declaration upon reaching the NL will use the CPC for goods remaining in Customs Control so that no Duty or VAT is levied (ie not into Free Circulation), information that has to be replicated on the documentation when they leave Customs Control to anywhere else. If they then come to the UK, for instance, when they are declared for Free Circulation they are shown as having come from the original country of export, not the NL. If thr NL are trying to claim them as their own exports for some reason they're going to get caught out because the true figures should be easily obtainable.
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I'm sure the lovely chap from the OECD that put this together would enjoy a debate with you.
Personally I don't care, all I said was that the NL figures that Hoola was using in a comparison with the UK were unreliable.
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:headbang:clearly Glyn didn't do Geography as a subject at school!
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I'm sure the lovely chap from the OECD that put this together would enjoy a debate with you.
Personally I don't care, all I said was that the NL figures that Hoola was using in a comparison with the UK were unreliable.
I stand by my figures see the following comparisons :-
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/united-kingdom.netherlands
I don't believe my stats are unreliable at all . Here's some more for you :-
https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nld/
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:headbang:clearly Glyn didn't do Geography as a subject at school!
What's Geography got to do with Customs Law? Nothing, as far as I can see.
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Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?
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I'm sure the lovely chap from the OECD that put this together would enjoy a debate with you.
Personally I don't care, all I said was that the NL figures that Hoola was using in a comparison with the UK were unreliable.
I stand by my figures see the following comparisons :-
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/united-kingdom.netherlands
I don't believe my stats are unreliable at all . Here's some more for you :-
https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nld/
I've just looked through those, and they prove nothing.
But have it your way, I'm not that interested.
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I'm sure the lovely chap from the OECD that put this together would enjoy a debate with you.
Personally I don't care, all I said was that the NL figures that Hoola was using in a comparison with the UK were unreliable.
I stand by my figures see the following comparisons :-
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/united-kingdom.netherlands
I don't believe my stats are unreliable at all . Here's some more for you :-
https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nld/
I've just looked through those, and they prove nothing.
But have it your way, I'm not that interested.
Thought you might not be somehow , they differ from what you believe .
Site after site , stat after stat have the Dutch between 6-8th in any international export league . Now you may want to argue about the specifics Martin but In whatever way you measure the figures and as patriotic as you might try to be - fact is we have under- performed in our export trade and have for some 100 years - which was my original point ! What further figures do you want me to chuck at you ? Fact is this is a small nation that packs a big punch , perhaps instead of blowing raspberries at me you might agree with my overall point .
We make fewer unique items for the export market than we ever did , our industrial base is at an all- time low and basically we struggle to compete. Our workforce is capable but ill- prepared and in many cases poorly organised . Our universities have been shovelling out kid after kid with weak degrees , fatefully ill-equipped for the modern industrial age . These are facts . Now if you disputed these as pure opinion and came up with counter- arguments I could engage with you further and we could have an interesting debate on here. However you pop on here say summat is bollox and proceed to flounce off
Since Thatcher " abandoned " our manufacturing base in the 1980's in favour of a larger Service sector - manufacturing has continued to struggle . I'm not enjoying writing this but we want to go out there into unknown markets and de-regulate further just to try and regain some sort of competitive edge however in my opinion we are ill-equipped , it's romantic however it won't work
Check page 7 of the OECD profile on the Netherlands - it is consistent with my figures
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Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?
Yes if you went along with Silent Majority's theory , however the small point he makes about the container port of Rotterdam does have some merit - if you make the assumption that the Dutch export stats are enhanced by it .
Fact is The Netherlands export performance per head far exceeds both ours , the Germans and the French.
There are good reasons why the Dutch were the richest nation on earth for centuries (1550 - 1850 in terms of gdp per. capita )
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So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?
Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs !
Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.
Yes I agree SM the entreport of Rotterdam being the culprit.
If you're talking about Rotterdam being the focal point for transhipments and Bonded Warehouses, then any of those goods aren't technically imported into The Netherlands as they aren't in Free Circulation - so wouldn't count as Dutch imports or exports.
Hmm silent majority seems to think they are . Oh to get the export figures up by being one huge container port ......We will be shortly lorry parks everywhere at this rate!
Don't do that Hoola. I never said that at all. I didn't even mention Rotterdam.
Neither did I mention Rotterdam - at least I can't see any reference to it - I'm pretty pissed though that you thought I would do that to you .
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Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?
If something coming from outside the EU landed at Felixstowe to be transhipped to, say, Ireland, what would normally happen is that the goods would be declared to Free Circulation (with all Duties and Taxes paid) at Felixtowe and they then travel onwards unfettered due to the UK and Ireland being in the Single Market. When the goods cross the border into Ireland it isn't an export from the UK to Ireland as the goods have not crossed a Customs Border, they did that at Felixstowe.
When goods are entered into a Bonded Warehouse in Rotterdam, they are not in Free Circulation as although the Warehouse is on Dutch soil the Duty and VAT haven't been paid on them and they have not crossed a Customs Border either. There are two main things that can happen to the goods then - they either go to a Member State of the EU, and they are entered to Free Circulation (because they cross the Customs Border the second they leave the Warehouse) and travel onwards to their destination (however, the importing country is deemed to be where the destination named on the documentation for leaving the Bonded Warehouse); or, they are transhipped to somewhere outside of the EU in which case they travel onwards without the need to pay Duty and VAT and they are not deemed to have been in the EU because they were never in Free Circulation and did not cross the EU Customs Border.
Rotterdam is the big centre for Bonded Warehouses in the EU. Felixstowe (and the rest of the UK) have Bonded Warehouses too, but Rotterdam is the central nexus. My guess is that someone somewhere is counting goods that have moved out of Rotterdam's Bonded Warehouses - but not crossing the Customs Border - as 'Dutch exports', which is true in the sense that the goods have physically crossed Dutch territory but incorrect in the usual sense of import/exports in that the goods haven't actually been imported into Free Circulation in the Netherlands in the first place.
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Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?
If something coming from outside the EU landed at Felixstowe to be transhipped to, say, Ireland, what would normally happen is that the goods would be declared to Free Circulation (with all Duties and Taxes paid) at Felixtowe and they then travel onwards unfettered due to the UK and Ireland being in the Single Market. When the goods cross the border into Ireland it isn't an export from the UK to Ireland as the goods have not crossed a Customs Border, they did that at Felixstowe.
When goods are entered into a Bonded Warehouse in Rotterdam, they are not in Free Circulation as although the Warehouse is on Dutch soil the Duty and VAT haven't been paid on them and they have not crossed a Customs Border either. There are two main things that can happen to the goods then - they either go to a Member State of the EU, and they are entered to Free Circulation (because they cross the Customs Border the second they leave the Warehouse) and travel onwards to their destination (however, the importing country is deemed to be where the destination named on the documentation for leaving the Bonded Warehouse); or, they are transhipped to somewhere outside of the EU in which case they travel onwards without the need to pay Duty and VAT and they are not deemed to have been in the EU because they were never in Free Circulation and did not cross the EU Customs Border.
Rotterdam is the big centre for Bonded Warehouses in the EU. Felixstowe (and the rest of the UK) have Bonded Warehouses too, but Rotterdam is the central nexus. My guess is that someone somewhere is counting goods that have moved out of Rotterdam's Bonded Warehouses - but not crossing the Customs Border - as 'Dutch exports', which is true in the sense that the goods have physically crossed Dutch territory but incorrect in the usual sense of import/exports in that the goods haven't actually been imported into Free Circulation in the Netherlands in the first place.
How on earth , based on that final part of your theory , could the Dutch Govt . ever work out their " true" balance of trade figures ? How could they ever plan ahead - where would we ever find their true export figures unless we could break them down by sector.
Incidentally , it is claimed that we also use our onward travel arrangements of large gold shipments to artificially inflate our export figures is that happening in much the same way ?