Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: bpoolrover on August 30, 2018, 06:48:12 pm
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45359009 Sad really he was 1 of the few MPs I like
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I remember him from years ago after someone taught him to yodel.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45359009 Sad day 1 if the few mps I like
He's not died you know and he's still an MP - at least until the next election when he will be deselected by the Constituency Labour party and a proper socialist is selected in his place.
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A man who represents people in the Liverpool area yet chose to write for The Sun. Proper principled bloke, eh.
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He's always struck me as bizarrely out of place in any variant of the Labour party. He's had some very right-wing views on social issues (steered by his quite fundamentalist Anglican faith) and he always seemed to take great delight in being an awkward sod.
In my book, he shouldn't have had the chance to resign the whip - he should have had it removed for siding with May on the Brexit vote a few weeks ago and saving her from a vote of no confidence. That was totally unacceptable, even in a Corbyn-led Labour party.
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He's always struck me as bizarrely out of place in any variant of the Labour party. He's had some very right-wing views on social issues (steered by his quite fundamentalist Anglican faith) and he always seemed to take great delight in being an awkward sod.
In my book, he shouldn't have had the chance to resign the whip - he should have had it removed for siding with May on the Brexit vote a few weeks ago and saving her from a vote of no confidence. That was totally unacceptable, even in a Corbyn-led Labour party.
I couldn't agree more however Corbyn was never likely to deprive anyone of the whip given his past opposition to Labour policies. He's toast from now on - Hoey , Mann and the other knobrot to sort out now.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45359009 Sad day 1 if the few mps I like
He's not died you know and he's still an MP - at least until the next election when he will be deselected by the Constituency Labour party and a proper socialist is selected in his place.
no its sad he feels the need to resign due to anti semitism
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If you think anti-semitism is the only reason he's resigned, you're being taken for a ride.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-45359009 Sad day 1 if the few mps I like
He's not died you know and he's still an MP - at least until the next election when he will be deselected by the Constituency Labour party and a proper socialist is selected in his place.
no its sad he feels the need to resign due to anti semitism
No its bizarre. He resigns the whip because of anti-semitism in the Labour Party yet still wants to remain a member of this anti-semitic party! Talk about double standards.
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Bpool
The Labour Party has been labelled as anti semitic mainly because they dare to voice concerns about the treatment of, and atrocities done in Palestine and of Palestinian Jews by the Zionists when everyone else, (especially the US who continue to fund the state of Israel and provide troops to fight their wars) turn a blind eye to any wrongdoing ( and there's been plenty)....for fear of being branded anti semitic.
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Tommy
You know that's not right.
The Labour party has been branded anti-Semitic because
a) there ARE some nasty anti-semites in the membership and some of them need chucking out of the party
2) The leadership has stupidly allowed the issue to fester by the amateurish way that it's approached the IHRA definition. The leadership could have put this issue to bed but they've allowed a bunch of gobshites who never grew out of student politics debates to keep the focus on it.
3) Corbyn has said and done some things in the past that are hostages to fortune. I don't believe he is anti-Semitic but he's made it very easy to portray him that way.
It's nothing whatsoever to do with criticising Israeli Govt policy. You can easily do that without any hint of anti-semitism. The way Labour has dealt with this issue over the summer has stupidly conflated the two and actually makes it harder to hold Israel to account.
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Fair enough. But it begs the question as to why there are so many anti semitic or anti Zionists members of the party and I do believe it stems from the treatment of Palestinians over the last 20 years.
No way is Corbyn a racist yet it's clear where his sympathies lie on this issue.
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TT.
I agree entirely. But the thing is, for very understandable historic reasons, Jews fight against perceived anti-semitism harder than any other ethnic/religious groups and so you are very likely to be held to account if you give any indication that you are anti-Semitic.
I agree entirely that Israel Govt policy towards the Palestinians is disgraceful. But Israel exists in a region where hundreds of millions of its neighbours deny its right to exist. I don't agree with Israel's response, but with the Holocaust in living memory, I am prepared to accept that it's not a one way argument.
Less than two decades ago, BOTH sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict were working towards compromise. Israel took a lurch to hard right nationalism partly in response to the Palestinians rejecting Arafat's peaceable approach and moving towards Hamas who are committed to destroying Israel. Corbyn's uncritical support for Hamas makes it easy to finger him as an anti-Semite.
As I say, I don't think he is. But I DO think he has a deeply immature and one-dimensional approach to foreign affairs. For him it's simple. Ask yourself who is stronger and who is weaker in any conflict. His Marxist analisys says that the stronger side must be the oppressor so you have to support the weaker.
It's why he never seriously criticised Russia. Not for Grozny. Not for Aleppo. Not for Crimea. Not for North Ossetia. Not for Salisbury. Because for him, Russia is in a fight with America and since America is stronger and therefore the oppressor, his policy is to support Russia. Even when they destroy cities and annex other countries' territory.
Similar with Israel. He will never condemn Hamas because his philosophy insists that Israel is the bad guy. But Hamas ARE anti-Semitic. So, as a friend of Hamas, he is easy to paint as an anti-Semite.
He'll never put this to bed because that would mean relinquishing a lifetime's committment to this immature view of world politics.
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Yes, as much as I like Corbyn's policies he can be stupidly naive and stubborn and makes himself an easy target as he won't compromise.
Signing up to the IHRA agreement may have put this to bed but the minutiae got in the way.
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That's what you get with Corbyn. It'll never change. The Left think it's more of an insult to call someone a compromiser than to call them a Kitson.
It's been my worry all along. Corbyn can get the domestic and economic policies spot on (and he has) but it's pointless if his foreign policy is like passing ammunition to the enemy to destroy his credibility at home.
He's not going to f**king well solve Israel/Palestine. But by allowing the focus to stay on his opinions on that topic, he'll probably f**k up his chances of becoming PM. And then it doesn't matter how good his domestic policies are because he'll never get the chance to put them into practice.
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Billy, Do you think despite his foreign policies his domestic policies would be fulfillable if he was voted in?
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BB
Yes. They are mainly textbook economics of the sort that have been taught to undergraduate economics students for three generations.
It's Austerity which is Voodoo Economics. It has no support in either economic theory or experience. There were two major academic papers which were used to lend support to Austerity in 2010. Both have been demonstrated to have been based on schoolboy errors (and that's another FACT not an arguable opinion - one of them added up the numbers incorrectly in an Excel spreadshedt. When the error was found, it reversed the conusion of the paper. Debt didn't lead to bad economic performance. Bad economic performance led to debt. And so reducing debt AS A NO1 PRIORITY, which is what these idiots have done for the past decade, will not lead to an improved economy.)
We've known this since the 1930s. All that McDonnell is proposing is that we go back to the economics that we already know to work, and Chuck out the nonsense that has given us the worst recovery in 200 years and suppressed everyone's wages for a decade.
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You have to ask yourself why, given the shambles that currently is the Government, that Labour aren't well ahead in the polls. I suspect if someone like Ed Miliband or Yvette Cooper were Leader of the Opposition, Labour would have a double digit lead.
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TRB
There is regular evidence from polls which Corbynistas refuse to engage with.
Every time ordinary people are asked who would make the best PM, they overwhelmingly choose May over Corbyn.
And there's the answer to your question. The worst PM in a century is considered by ordinary people to be far better than a leader that the Labour new membership think is infallible.
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I struggle to know what Corbyn stands for. He was just about a remainer prior to the brexit vote but he was so limp wristed in his support that he encouraged a brexit vote and me immediately leaving the labour party.
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Unfortunately Corbyn isn't a remainer and never was. He's always been skeptical about the EU which is why as on many things including the anti semitism row he's been absent.
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I struggle to know what Corbyn stands for. He was just about a remainer prior to the brexit vote but he was so limp wristed in his support that he encouraged a brexit vote and me immediately leaving the labour party.
And that leaves you with a dilemma GB , who would you vote for right now if at all ?
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You have to ask yourself why, given the shambles that currently is the Government, that Labour aren't well ahead in the polls. I suspect if someone like Ed Miliband or Yvette Cooper were Leader of the Opposition, Labour would have a double digit lead.
Them pesky polls
http://uk.businessinsider.com/poll-labour-would-go-backwards-under-yvette-cooper-or-chuka-umunna-2017-5
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https://yougov.co.uk/news/categories/politics/ think these were the most accurate at the last election it's staggering that at this stage it's even close, surely they need to get rid of corbyn and McDonnell
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Wilts
Aye. Them polls.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5611f0zc0v/InternalResults_170212_LabourLeadership_W.pdf
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Wilts
Aye. Them polls.
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/5611f0zc0v/InternalResults_170212_LabourLeadership_W.pdf
They're a bit out of date though.
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You have to ask yourself why, given the shambles that currently is the Government, that Labour aren't well ahead in the polls. I suspect if someone like Ed Miliband or Yvette Cooper were Leader of the Opposition, Labour would have a double digit lead.
Them pesky polls
http://uk.businessinsider.com/poll-labour-would-go-backwards-under-yvette-cooper-or-chuka-umunna-2017-5
May 2017? We're talking about Peak Corbyn, and you can't argue that he didn't have a good General Election campaign last year. But a lot has happened since then.
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TRB
That's precisely it.
Comparisons between Labour's support with (a well-known) Corbyn or with (barely known) hypothetical replacements are pointless.
The link I posted says that only 54% of voters knew who Cooper was, and only 39% knew who Umunna was. Whereas 94% knew Corbyn. So asking them if they'd be more likely to vote Labour with Umunna or Cooper in charge is an utterly pointless question.
And of course, that's never going to be the question anyway, as Wilts knows only too well because he's a smart lad. Umunna or Cooper are never going to be serious contenders in the present Labour party. The better question is whether Labour would be more acceptable to voters with Khan or Starmer or even Long-Bailey as leader.
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May 2017 (before the GE) was Corbyn and Labour polling at their lowest point since he became leader, hence why May called the election. Half the shadow cabinet had resigned over triggering article 50 and there had been a leadership challenge.
So even then, with Labour doing a lot worse in the polls than they are now, as the poll I posted demonstrated. replacing Corbyn would see Labour loose even more support.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/17/jeremy-corbyn-remains-more-popular-theresa-may/
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Wilts
The point is that pretty much ALWAYS happens in polls where the alternatives proposed are not well known.
That does not mean that the alternatives would or would not actually perform better than Corbyn if they had replaced him and had the resultant increased media profile.
Those sort of poll questions are essentially meaningless because they are asking people to judge something that they have zero experience of (ie what the alternatives would actually be like if they were the leader.)
Look at the case of Gordon Brown. He was far more popular than Blair in 2006 before he became leader. By 2009, he had some of the worst PM polling scores on record.
What is an established fact is that Corbyn is now three years into being Labour leader and he's had a lot of media exposure. People have mostly made up their minds what they think of him. And poll after poll has him trailing way behind the worst PM in a century on the question of who people would prefer as PM.
I'd have thought that fact ought to make the Corbynistas stop and consider whether there might be a problem with their project.
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Ahh, the meaningless polls are the ones that have the results you don't like but the meaningful ones are the ones you do, gotcha.
Yes Corbyn has had a lot of media exposure, so much so that an official complaint has gone in to IPSO, and dont be fooled that any other left leaning leader wont too. Its not Corbyn they hate, its the threat to clamp down on billionaire tax exiles and fat cat pay. What effect has all the negative stories had on Labour's rating btw?
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No Wilts. Not my opinion.
See, I have this policy that when I don't know much about a topic, I listen to people who spend their careers analysing the topic. Quaintly old fashioned I'll admit.
Here's Anthony Wells from YouGov.
"If you ask how people would vote with x, y or z as leader, or if people would be more or less likely to vote Labour with each candidate as leader then you are getting a little closer, but the problem is still that people are expected to answer a question about how they would vote with the candidates as leader when the general public know hardly anything about them. A fair old chunk won’t even know the candidates names or what they look like, the majority will have little real idea what policies they will put forward. None of us really know how they will work out as leader, what the public, press and political reaction will be, how they will really operate. How can respondents really judge how they would vote in a hypothetical situation with so little information? They can’t."
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9468
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By the way, I don't know what effect negative stories have had, but I do know that Labour's polling average has dropped by about 4-5% this year with the biggest drop coming when Corbyn effectively took Russia's side in the Salisbury incident.
Yet another self-inflicted wound on the foreign picture front.
Since then, Labour have been behind the Tories in something like 80% of the polls, despite the Govt being in the biggest hole of any post-War administration.
Still, you'll be able to console yourself that it's all the fault of the papers. Just like I did throughout the 80s and early 90s.
The thing is, this is the best chance in my lifetime for a Govt with a genuinely left-wing domestic policy to get power. I'll admit that I didn't see the Tory party becoming quite so dysfunctional as they have done. And that gives Corbyn a HUGE advantage. And his domestic policies ARE popular. But I can see it all being pissed away because of his inability to put the navel gazing student politics debates on Russia and on anti-semitism to bed.
And there's a frustration building on the front benches. See McDonnell's and Thornberry's comments over the weekend urging Labour (read: Corbyn) to put the bloody anti-semitism issue to bed. If stupid indulgences like that do end up losing Labour the next election it will be a once in a life chance gone.
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I saw Thornberry on something the other day and was quite impressed. Previously she had struck me as the sort of politician who is too far up herself (plenty of those on all sides) but she seemed to have a good grasp of reality.
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Yes if you can get past her sneering demeanor she does talk some sense.
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TRB
Comparisons between Labour's support with (a well-known) Corbyn or with (barely known) hypothetical replacements are pointless.
The link I posted says that only 54% of voters knew who Cooper was, and only 39% knew who Umunna was. Whereas 94% knew Corbyn. So asking them if they'd be more likely to vote Labour with Umunna or Cooper in charge is an utterly pointless question.
In exactly the same way that someone asked the British populace about leaving the EU...
Sorry wrong thread :(
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TRB
Comparisons between Labour's support with (a well-known) Corbyn or with (barely known) hypothetical replacements are pointless.
The link I posted says that only 54% of voters knew who Cooper was, and only 39% knew who Umunna was. Whereas 94% knew Corbyn. So asking them if they'd be more likely to vote Labour with Umunna or Cooper in charge is an utterly pointless question.
In exactly the same way that someone asked the British populace about leaving the EU...
Sorry wrong thread :(
Not the wrong thread at all Dutch. Eventually, every thread becomes the Brexit thread! :silly:
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Wonder what the budget will look like after...
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Wonder what the budget will look like after...
At least we've moved on from talking about how many chips they give you at the Keepmoat.
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I was thoroughly underwhelmed by Thornberry in the last Election. She put in an awful performance in one interview where she had no grasp of the detail of a policy she was presenting, then, when questioned hard by the interviewer she played the "is it because I is a woman?" card. Dreadful.
I've not really noticed her much lately but I gather she's the favourite to replace Corbyn. If so, I hope you're right that she's improved markedly TRB.
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what's wrong with Diane Abbott like?
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Oh all right then seeing as no-one else will post it. After a summer of chaos and infighting this is how far Labour are behind in the latest poll out today
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That's very silly Wilts.
Firstly, you might factor in that the Tories have also been in chaos. What was the last time someone as senior as a Foreign Secretary resigned and started firing shots at the PM? It happens once a generation and it signifies a governing party in chaos. Last time it happened was 1990 when Geoffrey How'd resigned as Deputy PM and attacked Thatcher. Labour were 15-20% ahead in the polls then. And they still lost 18 months later.
Secondly, it's one poll. You don't ever go on one poll because they have margins if error of typically +/-3%.
So that poll is saying there's 95% confidence that Labour are between 38-44% and the Tories are between 34-40%.
So you look at the trend.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election
The trend is saying that it's currently about neck and neck. And the reason the Tories aren't currently 5-6% ahead is not because of Labour being strong. It's because UKIP have risen.
Stop and think about that. .
The worst PM in a century.
The biggest crisis for 80 years.
A Tory party tearing itself apart and bereft of ideas as to how to address the crisis.
Those are the conditions where you expect a Govt in waiting to be 25% ahead in the polls.
And the best Labour can do is to be neck and neck.
Do you think Labour might have an electability issue?
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Oh all right then seeing as no-one else will post it. After a summer of chaos and infighting this is how far Labour are behind in the latest poll out today
UKIP have doubled their % in under a week presumably to the detriment of the Lib/ Dems who have fallen 4 % in the same period .
If there were an election and Labour were thinking about outright victory or being the largest Party they can't do that unless there is a Lib/ Dem revival to strip the Tories of seats where they ( L/ Dems ) are the only realistic challengers . I'm thinking of London, the South West , Scotland and some rural areas
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I was thoroughly underwhelmed by Thornberry in the last Election. She put in an awful performance in one interview where she had no grasp of the detail of a policy she was presenting, then, when questioned hard by the interviewer she played the "is it because I is a woman?" card. Dreadful.
I've not really noticed her much lately but I gather she's the favourite to replace Corbyn. If so, I hope you're right that she's improved markedly TRB.
It must be said that the panel she was on wasn't very hostile but she was a big improvement on the last GE where she managed to come over as patronising. I can see how she might be Labour leader, because although she's not from the Corbynite Left, she has managed to keep onside with them.
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Oh all right then seeing as no-one else will post it. After a summer of chaos and infighting this is how far Labour are behind in the latest poll out today
UKIP have doubled their % in under a week presumably to the detriment of the Lib/ Dems who have fallen 4 % in the same period .
If there were an election and Labour were thinking about outright victory or being the largest Party they can't do that unless there is a Lib/ Dem revival to strip the Tories of seats where they ( L/ Dems ) are the only realistic challengers . I'm thinking of London, the South West , Scotland and some rural areas
I can't see Lib/ Dem voters going to UKIP somehow - all other recent polls have them on 9-11% .
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Oh all right then seeing as no-one else will post it. After a summer of chaos and infighting this is how far Labour are behind in the latest poll out today
UKIP have doubled their % in under a week presumably to the detriment of the Lib/ Dems who have fallen 4 % in the same period .
If there were an election and Labour were thinking about outright victory or being the largest Party they can't do that unless there is a Lib/ Dem revival to strip the Tories of seats where they ( L/ Dems ) are the only realistic challengers . I'm thinking of London, the South West , Scotland and some rural areas
I can't see Lib/ Dem voters going to UKIP somehow - all other recent polls have them on 9-11% .
...I may have misread this but.. are you disagreeing with your own post there hoola? I'm confused. :laugh:
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Oh all right then seeing as no-one else will post it. After a summer of chaos and infighting this is how far Labour are behind in the latest poll out today
UKIP have doubled their % in under a week presumably to the detriment of the Lib/ Dems who have fallen 4 % in the same period .
If there were an election and Labour were thinking about outright victory or being the largest Party they can't do that unless there is a Lib/ Dem revival to strip the Tories of seats where they ( L/ Dems ) are the only realistic challengers . I'm thinking of London, the South West , Scotland and some rural areas
I can't see Lib/ Dem voters going to UKIP somehow - all other recent polls have them on 9-11% .
...I may have misread this but.. are you disagreeing with your own post there hoola? I'm confused. :laugh:
No you are quite right RJ , I'm still trying to understand how the Lib/Dem vote has dropped so drastically and gone to UKIP - it doesnt make sense the dafter Brexit becomes the more the already fragile L/ Dem vote becomes . Its a topsy- turvy world and I'm wondering just how much more of Alice's medicine we all need to take to make sense of it all !
My comment still stands this poll doesn't seem right when taken as a comparison to all other polls ( YouGov has them on 11% on 7/9 )
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Hoola
Individual polls are meaningless. They have margins of error. The most likley explanation is that this one is at the exteme of high UKIP and low LD.
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I thought this thread was about Frank Field; for what it's worth I thought his best hit was "She taught me to yodel".
Oh sorry guys, that was Frank Ifield.
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I thought this thread was about Frank Field; for what it's worth I thought his best hit was "She taught me to yodel".
Oh sorry guys, that was Frank Ifield.
I think that BB might be contacting you about plagurism Steve.😉
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I thought this thread was about Frank Field; for what it's worth I thought his best hit was "She taught me to yodel".
Oh sorry guys, that was Frank Ifield.
I think that BB might be contacting you about plagurism Steve.😉
Dear me, I completely missed that Idler; BB will have me for copyright infringements; I'll have to change it to "I remember you".