Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on October 20, 2018, 11:45:20 pm
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...surprised that Corbyn wasn't thumping the tub there. Given that 90% of his members and 70% of Labour voters in recent polls want Brexit reversed.
I wonder why he's not lending his wonderful campaigning skills to this campaign?
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Estimates ranging from some 500-700, 000 there today ......looking like his absense could be a major miscalculation.
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He was in Geneva, re-living past glories.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1053585247131066368
Now, don't get me wrong. His work in getting Pinochet extradited to face justice was excellent.
But that was then. This is now. Now, Britain is facing it's biggest crisis since WWII. The Labour party membership and voters are overwhelmingly anti-Brexit. Corbyn won the leadership election pledging that the membership would drive policy (which I personally think is stupid, but that's not the point. It's HIS stated philosophy.)
So why is it that everyone there's anti-Brexit leadership required, Corbyn vanishes from the scene and turns up cuddled up in some nice safe space where he doesn't have to address this?
There's a theme here.
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It's Boris and Heathrow all over again.
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Meanwhile, the BBC, in its report on the London rally with nearly 3/4m there, is at pains to point out that Farage had a rally in Harrogate supporting Brexit. There were about 1000 there.
It's exactly like reporting on a Man Utd match, and finishing it of by saying Mexborough Main St also had a game today.
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By the way. That Harrogate Rally.
https://mobile.twitter.com/skynews/status/1053662098574716929
God. All. f**king. Mighty.
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By the way. The delicious irony of this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Jacob_Rees_Mogg/status/1053665653280911360?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1053665653280911360&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnews.sky.com%2Fstory%2Flive-brexit-protest-to-be-biggest-in-a-decade-11530243
That's right.
That's you being lectured to about elitists manipulating you.
That's right.
That's the son of the Editor of The Times. Who went to Eton and Oxford. (He was Chairman of the Conservative Students Association at the latter.)
He then went to work in the City of London and now runs a £multi-billion hedge fund. As well as doing what is presumably a full time job as an MP.
He lives in the Grade II listed Gournay Court manor, with his wife, Helena Anne Beatrix Wentworth Fitzwilliam de Chair, the daughter of Somerset de Chair and Lady Julia Tadgell.
They got married in Canterbury Cathedral. As you do. And their combined wealth is estimated at £100m.
Oh aye. And several reports have shown that Rees-Mogg's hedge fund stands to make a fortune from market changes when the UK leaves the EU.
But go on. Fill your boots with his comments about how The Elite are deceiving you...
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It's been an interesting spectacle this.
We've heard a great deal over previous three years how Corbyn is supposed to be leading a party, not some self-indulgent, sanctimonious, out-of-touch protest movement.
We've also heard that the size of crowds at political rallies are irrelevant if you're only preaching to the converted. Don't bother, it's just a show of moral superiority and complete waste of time.
We've heard the important point that the party membership make up only 1.2% of the total electorate and are not representative of it. Don't listen to them, it is electoral suicide.
Now we're hearing that Corbyn should be doing exactly the opposite from those very same critics, the only difference now being that it suits a dead-end political cause that they happen to passionately believe in (or so they say). You couldn't make it up.
Thankfully, the man at least seems to possess some degree of political judgement on this matter.
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...surprised that Corbyn wasn't thumping the tub there. Given that 90% of his members and 70% of Labour voters in recent polls want Brexit reversed.
I wonder why he's not lending his wonderful campaigning skills to this campaign?
There was an opion poll recently that showed the Tories with a slight lead and breakdown of why that was as regards Leave and Remain voters. I mentioned it here:
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=267425.60
but I think it's worthwhile posting the results in full:
2016 Remainers:
LAB: 53% (+5)
CON: 23% (+1)
LDM: 15% (-4)
GRN: 3% (=)
UKIP: 0% (=)
2016 Leavers:
CON: 66% (+4)
LAB: 17% (-5)
UKIP: 10% (+1)
LDM: 3% (=)
GRN: 1% (+1)
Fieldwork 30-1 Oct. Changes w/ 24-25 Sep.
There is Corbyn's problem. Over half the people who voted Remain will vote Labour. But less than 1 in 5 who voted Leave will. Corbyn doesn't need support from people who like the EU - he needs support from those who dont.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1048223569883410432
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Akinfenwa.
I'm throwing back Corbyn's philosophy at him.
I DON'T believe that policy should be decided by the membership. That way lies idelogical madness.
BUT.
Corbyn DOES. Or at least claims he does. So, if that's his stance, why has he manoeuvred for 2 years to prevent his membership having its say at Conference and determining party policy.
He can't have it both ways. Or maybe you're saying that he CAN. Maybe he should support the primacy of the membership when it suits him. Is THAT what you are saying?
Wilts.
Yes. Of course it's a problem for Labour. Exacerbated by the fact that in the same polls, many people who supported Remain AND are Labour supporters don't support Labour's policy on Brexit.
I've said for 2 years that Corbyn was being deceitful in this topic. He has wooed the (predominantly) metropolitan and Brexit-hating membership with hints that he's one of them. Whilst being Brexit-supporting enough to neutralise the Red UKIP threat. But that only works while you're in Opposition. If he's to get into power, he'll have to choose one or the other. His history and his current practice says he'll side with the tiny minority.
Which is a rather big problem for Labour.
Corbyn played that brilliantly in 2017. He convinced enough of both sides that he was on their side to achieve a remarkable GE result.
But it was a deception. He CANNOT be on both their sides. Very soon, he has to choose whether he's in the side of the vast majority of his party. Or still governed by his Bennite past. And then we're in very different territory.
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Meanwhile, the BBC, in its report on the London rally with nearly 3/4m there, is at pains to point out that Farage had a rally in Harrogate supporting Brexit. There were about 1000 there.
It's exactly like reporting on a Man Utd match, and finishing it of by saying Mexborough Main St also had a game today.
Yes it was another one of those " in the interests of balance " BBC MOMENTS - to show Farage in a pub getting a pint of ' EU out ' ale. Typical from our State broadcaster - surprised their cameras were anywhere in the vacinity when " thousands marched to Parliament for a 2nd Referendum " what bollox this was ! Where were the speeches ? More to the point where were Labour and their front benches ?
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Since when did Mexborough Main St oppose Man Utd?
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People can March in London all they want,If you've been to London recently you will know there is a march every weekend for one thing or another..However it's not going to put a ounce of pressure on anybody without significant Political pressure to back it up..
A few weeks ago on the Corbyn conference speech thread I made the point that the problem was that nobody really had much of a clue what Labours policy on Brexit was, or what they actually stood for..They have a shadow brexit minister but the reality is nobody really knows who he is never mind what Labours actual policy's are..
Once again as soon as there comes a time when they have chance to nail there colours to the mast with this March and give the public an idea what they actually stand for,they are nowhere to be seen and as per normal when the kitchen gets hot Corbyn finds an excuse to toddle off out of the way..This should be about whats best for the UK now...He is very happy to stand up on numerous times to attack May in the commons and say "If the government cant stand up and sort it out,then make way for a party that can"
They are just words aimed at scoring cheap Political points,In reality, he gives nobody whose vote can be swayed one way or another a ounce of confidence that he can because I'm not sure he knows himself..Which is probably why the polls suggest that one of the most unpopular goverments in history is still seen as a better bet than him...
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Wing Co
If you don't know who Labour's Shadow Brexit-supporting Secretary is then you haven't really been paying attention.
He's actually been very prominent in pulling Corbyn kicking and screaming towards a reasonable stance where Labour would effectively keep is in the CU and keep us as close as possible to the SM.
Which is the only solution that enables us to preserve the GFA, satisfy the EU and not wreck the economy.
It won't satisfy the flat-earthers who want us out and as far away from the EU as possible, but they only tot up to about 25% of the population, so frankly, who cares.
The big question is whether Corbyn would actually stomach a deal that effectively did keep us very close to the EU when he's spent his entire career being Benn's wingman the successor on the task of getting us out.
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I don't agree with you Billy on this one..You know who he is because you are passionate about your Labour politics and even though I don't agree with you on a lot of it Kudos to you for that..
I've voted both Labour and Tory in my time and can be swayed one way or another but if you got 100 people like me and asked them what Labours firm policy was on brexit,just how many can you put your hand on your heart and say could tell you ???
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Wing Co
Kier Starmer has been on Newsnight and the Andrew Marr programme over the past 3 days, setting out his case as Shadow Brexit-supporting Secretary.
Short of coming round to your house and giving you a one to one over tea and HobNobs, I'm not sure what more he could be doing to put his case to you.
If folk aren't engaging with that, that's not really the politicians' fault. But it DOES raise the issue about whether the electorate is really engaged enough to be taking decisions like this.
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Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...
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Billy,That's one point I would agree with you with,however the Labour party are just not united on this else he and Corbyn would be singing the same tune..Corbyn isn't really saying anything is he??
However for the last two days there has been a poll being retweeted all over twitter.Tens of thousands have voted and this is the current state of play...
45%Voted Leave, Now Leave
44%Voted Remain, Now Remain
05%Voted Leave, Now Remain
06%Voted Remain, Now Leave
This poll would suggest even with the current state of play fundamentally nothing has really changed peoples opinion..
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Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...
What’s democratic about having a vote for something when no one knows what the f**k they are voting for, with no chance of a further vote later on when the reality isn’t what they thought it was?
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Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...
What’s democratic about having a vote for something when no one knows what the f**k they are voting for, with no chance of a further vote later on when the reality isn’t what they thought it was?
OF COURSE WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE VOTING FOR!
Remain in the EUSSR or leave. Leave won the vote. End of!
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But my point is no one knew then what “leave the EU” means..
There is a good chance that had the government had an outline plan for leaving, agreed with the rest of the EU, in place for the referendum that Leave may have had a bigger majority..
There’s no need to shout either..
The brexit vote was like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat....
that isn’t there..!
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Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...
What’s democratic about having a vote for something when no one knows what the f**k they are voting for, with no chance of a further vote later on when the reality isn’t what they thought it was?
OF COURSE WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE VOTING FOR!
Remain in the EUSSR or leave. Leave won the vote. End of!
It was a black and white vote on an extremely multi coloured situation.
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Was this the anti-democracy rally attended by the cry babies who can't accept that they lost the referendum, so they just want to keep on voting until they get the 'right' result?
I think they used to call them fascists...
Farage himself said he would keep agitating for another vote if he lost. Would he have been an anti-democracy cry baby then?
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Farage would have continued to fight against the status quo, had he lost the vote. That is different to the demands for a new vote before the original vote has even been implemented!
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On the list of things not to say if you don't want to appear to be incapable of talking Brexit stuff like a functioning grown up, EUSSR comes about 3rd.
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BB
My word you do a fine line in logical deconstruction of meaning.
Of course you COULD argue that in Remain had won, the decision of the referendum (to remain) WOUKD have been put into effect, so Farage WOULD have been asking to have a vote to overturn an action. And since he was asking for a second vote before the first one even happened then...
But to pull this out of the semantic quagmire from which nothing good ever emerges, it's worth focussing on WHY Farage said he would demand a second referendum.
He said it was because the first one had been unfair because the Govt had funded leaflets supporting Remain. He was wrong on that, legally. It was official Govt policy to support Remain and those leaflets were a legitimate Govt expense.
What WASN'T legal, was what the Leave campaign did. Which was:
To massively overspend the amount they were allowed to spend on campaigning.
To set up fictitious cover companies to hide this.
To use that money to fund illegal social media targeting of vulnerable voters.
To pour in millions of pounds from the Kremlin to cover the Leave campaign costs.
All those things have been verified since the vote.
Leave broke not only the moral code in their approach to the campaign. They broke the law and arguably committed treason.
So. How can Farage possibly not support a second vote?
Oh aye. I forgot. It's cos he's a devious lying Kitson who thinks scruples are some type of kettle chip.
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Aye, the squeaky clean remain side never cheated by overspending on the referendum did they? ....And, Osbourne never lied about a punishment budget and other threats such as tax increases and pension cuts if we voted to leave, did he?
Oh, and Cameron's threat of World War 3 wasn't ever so slightly a bit of a porky, was it?
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You can bet the predictions of a punishment budget, and tax increases will come about if Corbyn ever wins an election.
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Neither side was squeaky clean BB, my issue wasn’t a leave/remain thing, just simply a total lack of clarity..
More than 2 years down the line and we still don’t know what status the EU members of my household will be in..
So for me it is personal, it’s nowt about politics, money, trade and which set of laws we follow, it’s about what happens to my loved ones..
If that makes me a bleating remoaner to some folks, then I couldn’t give a flying f**k..
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You can bet the predictions of a punishment budget, and tax increases will come about if Corbyn ever wins an election.
The markets will go into meltdown if Jezza gets in. Will play havoc with peoples pension funds!
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*Weary sigh cos I really have lost count of how many times we've been on this path now*
No BB. The Remain side didn't overspend. Nor did they illegally accept money from a hostile foreign power to fund their campaign. Nor did they illegally set up fictitious cover companies to hide their criminality. Nor did they use that money to fund a criminal organisation which illegally planted code into people's social media accounts to identify them as not very politically savvy and shit scared of immigrants, so they could be bombarded with lies in the last week of the campaign.
As for your other points, yes Osborne over played his hand but that wasn't a lie. He was illustrating a point that a Leave vote would hit the national finances very hard.
It has.
If we were going to stick to the original Austerity plan to balance the Govt's books by 2020, there WOULD have had to be swingeing spending cuts and tax rises.
Hammond has taken a different path. He's delayed the date when we will balance the books to 2025. Which means an extra 5 years of below average spending rises or delayed tax cuts. Osborne was stupid in not pointing out that there was an alternative to IMMEDIATE cuts in the scale he said, but the baseline fact that a Leave vote would hammer the public finances was 100% correct and has been proven to be so. The public finances are in a shocking state and it's going to take us a lot more pain to sort them out. Because of the Leave vote.
Equating Osborne's comments with the barefaced lies about the £350m/week, or Turkey joining the EU is immature at best, deliberately blowing smoke into the debate at worst.
It's not a cunning scheme to deceive you BB. It's all fact. One side DID engage in criminal (possibly treasonous) behaviour, lie through their f**king teeth and treat people like idiots. The other didn't.
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
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https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/david-cameron/news/91572/official-eu-remain-campaign
BST, Cameron and Osborne lied through and through right up to and including the bitter end when they resigned.
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.
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The serious point is brexit is f**ked up.. even those who voted leave won’t get what they want, probably..
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BB
There's no talking to you when you get in this mood is there?
Those funds you refer to were imposed for inadequate paperwork. That's sloppy and unprofessional but there was no indication of any criminal overspending.
Whereas...
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-44856992
In the lying, you're clearly just going to assert that both sides were as bad as each other without actually addressing the facts so it's probably pointless to go round this hamster wheel again.
It'd be good if you'd point out where Cameron said that Brexit would lead to WWIII though.
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.
What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.
What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?
The coach made it clear before the vote that it's a once per season decision and will go with whatever the players choose.
If you wanted the other guy and think the new captain is a bell-end, then I suppose it's tough luck.
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So failing to submit correct spending returns isn't an indication of overspending?
https://youtu.be/vsgcQFhBJXQ
"In the last century, twice we had an enormous bloodbath between our nations"
Is he referring to WW's 1 and 2, and suggesting the possibility of a WW3 in this interview?
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.
What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?
Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.
What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?
Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!
Perfect analogy !
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No analogy makes sense where there is a chance to reverse a bad decision sometime later..
Even the Americans can vote trump out at the end of next year.
Leave won the brexit referendum - but with that being a one chance vote then surely even the hardened leavers can understand it makes sense to have had a clear understanding of what you were actually voting for.?
In a general election if the subsequent government fails to deliver the manifesto they got in with, they can be voted out later..
Can we do that with brexit.? Are the leavers going to be content with the “deal” when we eventually get one.?
Having a vote and respecting the outcome is one thing, voting for blind uncertainty is another.!
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.
What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?
Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!
Perfect analogy !
Is it though? cos people were just guessing that McCann would be a disaster based on next to f**k all. Damage is ALREADY BEING DONE to our economy yet people seem to think it's just going to be fine?
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I just keep asking the question - why do Brexit-supporting supporters think the economic outcome won't be disastrous?
Never once heard a response that is based on anything but hope.
It truly is like a fundamentalist religion. You can put any information you want in front of them. Lies. Criminality. Treason. The already disastrous economic effects which have lost us £60-100bn since the vote. The consensus of economic opinion that you can probably multiply that loss by 5-10 fold over the next decade.
None of it makes any difference. Just like you wouldn't convince a religious fundamentalist to question their faith by arguing logically and from an evidential basis, so you cannot argue with the majority of Brexit-supporting supporters.
It's truly terrifying if you stop and think.of the implications.
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So failing to submit correct spending returns isn't an indication of overspending?
https://youtu.be/vsgcQFhBJXQ
"In the last century, twice we had an enormous bloodbath between our nations"
Is he referring to WW's 1 and 2, and suggesting the possibility of a WW3 in this interview?
I can't see that link, so can you confirm that he does he threaten WW3 or not, like you say he did?
Oh, and Cameron's threat of World War 3 wasn't ever so slightly a bit of a porky, was it?
because it sounds from your description it that he doesn't.
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If you have 11 players in a football team and there are 2 players who want to be the captain and all 11 players vote and out come is 6 against 5. The player with 6 votes becomes captain, I think it’s called a democratic vote.
And if the team plays shite they can vote in a new captain later..
But he still gets the opportunity to actually be the captain for a while first.
What if it becomes obvious that it's going to be a shit show before he reaches a competitive game?
Do you mean a bit like Grant McCann's appointment in pre-season!
Perfect analogy !
Is it though? cos people were just guessing that McCann would be a disaster based on next to f**k all. Damage is ALREADY BEING DONE to our economy yet people seem to think it's just going to be fine?
Ferguson resigned - short term damage.
McCann appointed - long term gain.
I'd like to see proof and actual figures, and specifically how it impacts each household.
Because I dare say remoaners are grossly eggagerating it, not for economic reasons. But for ideological reasons.
But they haven't the spine to admit it.
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What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?
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And by the way. What length of time would you consider to be "short term" for us to endure the pain of Brexit?
See, the very most optimistic Brexit-supporters reckon it'll be a decade before we see any economic benefits. By which time, if we've left with no deal, we'll have taken a bit of between £0.5-1trn to the economy.
Oh aye. And those optimistic Brexit-supporters aren't basing their predictions of eventual benefit on hard analysis. They are basing it on...well it'll be reyt.
Here's one that perplexes me though. Why on earth do you think folk are lying or exaggerating these effects? Do you think that's what everyone does? Do you reckon some people don't consider facts and weigh them up before coming to conclusions?
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What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?
I'd like to see proof of how and why it has impacted each individual household.
Because personally I cant say I have been affected at all.
I'm just looking forward to the future long term gain as a individual sovereign country.
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Every individual household? All 26million of them?
I don't think you quite get how this works do you?
Individual households have individual circumstances.
Some might get better jobs. Some might get worse jobs. Some might inherit money. Some might get serious illnesses.
What you do (if you're interested in the country as a whole, rather than nothing beyond your own front door) is to look at the average effect.
The IFS have already said that, because of the drastically reduced economic performance since the Vote, and the increase in inflation, we've lost about £1000 per household compared to where we'd expected to be by now before the vote.
Maybe you don't feel that as a LOSS. It's more a reduction in the natural level of income increase that we expect to see as the economy grows.
What's happened to us in the UK since the vote (and we are the only country in the developed world to have this happen) is that our economic growth has drastically fallen.
You might not feel that immediately. But the effect grows year on year. If our economic production grows at 1% less every year than that of the French or the Germans or the Dutch or the Canadians or the Americans, you'll not really notice it after a year. After 10 years though (and even the most optimistic Brexit-supporters are saying it'll be ten years before we see benefits) we'd be horrifying amounts poorer than them. Because the effect adds up year on year.
You don't seem overly concerned by that. I'm f**king furious that we are choosing to make ourselves poorer, and the ones who have chosen that for us will not even look at the facts in front of them b
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I am no economist but with the £ losing around 20% of its value against the Euro and a similar amount v the Dollar I conclude (see my first 4 words) that you personally must have been affected - perhaps indirectly through price rises - or through depleted Public Services IF they have been cut due to "the money" being spent elsewhere by the Government.
.... and surely if you have been to the Eurozone or USA since we had the Referendum you will have paid around 20% more for any goods and services - though as a non economist I daresay others will find that a bit simplistic
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What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?
I'd like to see proof of how and why it has impacted each individual household.
Because personally I cant say I have been affected at all.
I'm just looking forward to the future long term gain as a individual sovereign country.
It baffles me that Brexiteers want proof why we should remain? Surely, before you make any decision in life, you look at the pro's and con's of changing something BEFORE changing it, you don't change something, then weight up the pro's and con's. PLUS once we leave, there is no going back!
If your a sane individual you wouldn't buy a car without inspecting it or at least looking at it first - the paperwork etc.
The electorate was never giving that opportunity in 2016 - in fact we were lied to dozens of times, and now we are told by Farage etc that the NHS won't be getting £350 million a week etc, yet Brexiteers still dismiss everything and say "f**k it, at least we'll have our sovereignty back" - WE WON'T! We'll have less power in the world, less of a voice, and less influence on global decisions (https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-taking-back-control-united-kingdom-giving-up-control/)!
Boomstick - you can't comment on how Brexit has affected you yet, as we're still part of the EU!
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It truly is like a fundamentalist religion. You can put any information you want in front of them. Lies. Criminality. Treason. The already disastrous economic effects which have lost us £60-100bn since the vote. The consensus of economic opinion that you can probably multiply that loss by 5-10 fold over the next decade.
There's literally a photograph of Farage pointing to a graph showing the collapsing pound on the night of the vote with a shit-eating grin on his face. Photo evidence of him shorting the pound and being delighted it crashed because he got to line his own pockets. Anyone who sees this photo and continues to deny it is on the same level as the anti-vax crowd.
I wonder who'll be the first to point out the New European watermark as if that invalidates in any way what's in the photo.
(https://images.archant.co.uk/image/policy:1.5581230:1530174219/faragenew-jpg.jpg?f=default&h=421&w=630&$p$f$h$w=f8e78d2)
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DW
You're correct. That is precisely what has happened. Plus, the fact that overseas goods now cost more in £s because of the collapse of the exchange rate (which itself happened because the markets expect Brexit to have a seriously detrimental effect on our economy) inflation has greatly increased over the past 2 years. Meaning people have, on average, got poorer because wage rises have been below inflation.
And then there's the economic effect. The rest of the developed world has had a nice little mini boom for the past two years. USA, Germany, France, Canada, Australia, Netherlands have all had growth between 2.5-4% per year. That leads to quickly rising wealth. And even the long term problem cases like Japan and Italy have been swept along.
We haven't. We've had growth of 1-1.5% since the vote. Because business investment has dropped off a cliff.
But what's the f**king point laying these facts out before Brexit-supporters. They are convinced that people are lying to them.
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But don’t forget leave won, so that ends all arguments..
Or so some would say..
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It truly is like a fundamentalist religion. You can put any information you want in front of them. Lies. Criminality. Treason. The already disastrous economic effects which have lost us £60-100bn since the vote. The consensus of economic opinion that you can probably multiply that loss by 5-10 fold over the next decade.
There's literally a photograph of Farage pointing to a graph showing the collapsing pound on the night of the vote with a shit-eating grin on his face. Photo evidence of him shorting the pound and being delighted it crashed because he got to line his own pockets. Anyone who sees this photo and continues to deny it is on the same level as the anti-vax crowd.
I wonder who'll be the first to point out the New European watermark as if that invalidates in any way what's in the photo.
(https://images.archant.co.uk/image/policy:1.5581230:1530174219/faragenew-jpg.jpg?f=default&h=421&w=630&$p$f$h$w=f8e78d2)
.... and filling his Boots still as an MEP. Yep being a Member of the very body he is supposed to despise
He will of course say he is there " to reform the EU from within" - yeah right
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What proof do you want to see that hadn't been posted on here a dozen times before BS?
I'd like to see proof of how and why it has impacted each individual household.
Because personally I cant say I have been affected at all.
I'm just looking forward to the future long term gain as a individual sovereign country.
It baffles me that Brexiteers want proof why we should remain? Surely, before you make any decision in life, you look at the pro's and con's of changing something BEFORE changing it, you don't change something, then weight up the pro's and con's. PLUS once we leave, there is no going back!
If your a sane individual you wouldn't buy a car without inspecting it or at least looking at it first - the paperwork etc.
The electorate was never giving that opportunity in 2016 - in fact we were lied to dozens of times, and now we are told by Farage etc that the NHS won't be getting £350 million a week etc, yet Brexiteers still dismiss everything and say "f**k it, at least we'll have our sovereignty back" - WE WON'T! We'll have less power in the world, less of a voice, and less influence on global decisions (https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-taking-back-control-united-kingdom-giving-up-control/)!
Boomstick - you can't comment on how Brexit has affected you yet, as we're still part of the EU!
The country democratically voted to leave the undemocratic EU. Right?
So it's the remoaners who's job it is to prove why we should remain.
Something you lot can't do.
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Boomstick.. please tell me, as you clearly support leave, what the post brexit will mean to EU citizens currently living in the uk..?
Not your opinion, the facts please..
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"By the way" Blair Sycophants Twaddle wasn't quite so interested in large numbers when they were protesting about the imminent destruction of Iraq, in far larger numbers.
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Remain (official campaign), didn't overspend (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45043066), according to the Electoral commission. Earlier articles suggest it was fined £1,250 for accounting irregularities amounting to just that. Around 13k was not accounted for.
The official leave campaign overspent by £0.5m (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-fined-and-reported-to-police-by-electoral-commission-brexit) and ultimately broke electoral law according to the electoral commission. When you read more into it, a large sum of leave's money was funneled into an organisation called AggregateIQ, which was later found to be linked to Cambridge Analytica.
In some twist of fate, AggregateIQ, were recently (https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/3063193/ico-slaps-aggregateiq-with-first-official-gdpr-notice) given one of the first EU GDPR notices by the UK Information Commision.
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"By the way" This is what happened after Billy's Sanctimonious Twaddle cheered on his other friend Lord Kinnock of Brussels.
The Welsh Windbag wanted to join much earlier and at a far higher rate than it eventually had to leave, despite interest rates at 15%, https://www.theguardian.com/business/1992/sep/17/emu.theeuro (https://www.theguardian.com/business/1992/sep/17/emu.theeuro)
Remember Billy what John Major said of Britain's membership?
"If it isn't hurting it isn't working"
Hurting who? And some clown described Major during the Peoples Vote of 2016 as a "Statesman"
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Yargo
I'm worried about you. Is there anyone there to help you?
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
As far as I can see you're another Brexiteer who hasn't given a single FACT or valid argument as to why leaving the EU is a good idea. Make sense why you would keep trying to shift the conversation.
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
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The ONLY fact I need is that we won the vote. FACT.
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So you can’t answer..
That’s my point - no one knows, just one example which is personally important to me, of Brexit being as clear as mud..
Can you see my point, even if you disagree.??
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
The electricity comes from power stations where the polluting by-products can be handled AT SOURCE instead of being spread all over the atmosphere. FACT. Them environmental nut jobs know feck all, eh?
No doubt you'd prefer to keep driving your macho petrol-engined car and let this country carry on being beholden to those lovely journalist-murdering Saudi Arabians who control our oil supply.
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Perhaps we should all unite and form a 'Britain Surrendering Together' party. Initially, we'd have to elect a leader. Any ideas?
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
I voted leave in order to get rid of them all. Take a walk around town and tell me need all these wasters?
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
The electricity comes from power stations where the polluting by-products can be handled AT SOURCE instead of being spread all over the atmosphere. FACT. Them environmental nut jobs know feck all, eh?
No doubt you'd prefer to keep driving your macho petrol-engined car and let this country carry on being beholden to those lovely journalist-murdering Saudi Arabians who control our oil supply.
Yep. I love my Subaru which I am going to drive home and keep warm with my oil fired central heating.
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
I voted leave in order to get rid of them all. Take a walk around town and tell me need all these wasters?
Are you f**king serious.??
I guess you include my other half and her elderly father in your assessment to “get rid of them all”. ?
f**k me sideways.!
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
I voted leave in order to get rid of them all. Take a walk around town and tell me need all these wasters?
Are you f**king serious.??
I guess you include my other half and her elderly father in your assessment to “get rid of them all”. ?
f**k me sideways.!
You asked for my opinion. That is what it is. I'm sorry if you don't like it.
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
I voted leave in order to get rid of them all. Take a walk around town and tell me need all these wasters?
Are you f**king serious.??
I guess you include my other half and her elderly father in your assessment to “get rid of them all”. ?
f**k me sideways.!
You asked for my opinion. That is what it is. I'm sorry if you don't like it.
No I asked for the facts of what happens to EU citizens, I specifically did not ask for your opinion..
That you are generalising all of these people as “wasters” is highly offensive and says more about you than the folks from the EU..
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I bet Axholme Lion is among the group of people that wish to deport Anjem Choudary back to where he came from...
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
As I asked before (of all the Forum) - you call those who want to stay in the EU "Remainiacs" - and later on you say "we won the Vote - fact" - and that is true BUT the majority was only around 3% .
However back in the 1975Referendum, the majority to remain in the EEC (I voted leave at that time) was 34% so how has that vote not been respected. Remain won that Vote by a margin of 11 times more than in 2016. It has never been respected by a huge swathe of the Tory Party - FACT
Part two I would assume the Electricity for the Cars would come from sustainables in the future Wind wave and Solar Power and in some other evolutionary and revolutionary technologies like Hydrogen Cell and whatever other "sectret" things that are in the pipeline (no oil pun intended)
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DW
Wasting your time mate. He's a perfect example of prejudice over analysis.
Those attitudes are flying out. A bit slower than I'd have hoped but there's a bit less every generation.
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I think it's possible that analyses can be prejudiced, and people can be prejudiced on the analysis they choose to believe.
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I bet Axholme Lion is among the group of people that wish to deport Anjem Choudary back to where he came from...
Interesting comment that Redj,i for one would happily deport him if you could find anybody crazy enough to take him...I have no wish for my tax paying pounds to go to paying for him and his family to continue sucking our welfare system dry in the various benefits they are happy to take..Whilst allowing him and his brother radicals to preach the vile garbage he does against my country that feeds and clothes him while also trying to justify to his followers that committing acts of terrorism again British people and servicemen is okay!!!
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I bet Axholme Lion is among the group of people that wish to deport Anjem Choudary back to where he came from...
Interesting comment that Redj,i for one would happily deport him if you could find anybody crazy enough to take him...I have no wish for my tax paying pounds to go to paying for him and his family to continue sucking our welfare system dry in the various benefits they are happy to take..Whilst allowing him and his brother radicals to preach the vile garbage he does against my country that feeds and clothes him while also trying to justify to his followers that committing acts of terrorism again British people and servicemen is okay!!!
My point was people wanting to deport him thinking he isn't actually from here.
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If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse.
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Ignoring the fact that we can't force a random country to take someone we don't want, then.
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Ignoring the fact that we can't force a random country to take someone we don't want, then.
Perhaps we should Google Earth search for an uninhabited island somewhere and call it New Australia.
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If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse.
If that stable is in Britain then it’s a British dog.!
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Any British dog that hates Britain should be f**ked off out of it.
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If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse.
What if it was a British dog?
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
To eventually answer your question. ( Sorry for the delay)
I don't think anything will happen whatsoever to them.
However, I do believe for obvious reasons that open season of British jobs for EU nationals will finish .
The floodgates are rightly closing.
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
To eventually answer your question. ( Sorry for the delay)
I don't think anything will happen whatsoever to them.
However, I do believe for obvious reasons that open season of British jobs for EU nationals will finish .
The floodgates are rightly closing.
Aye, it's working well.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/992120/fruit-berries-shortage-politicians-show-support-scotland-news
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If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse.
If that stable is in Britain then it’s a British dog.!
And there in lies the problem,although I'm not sure it would make any difference,it seems to be a lot easier for foreign countries to deport British criminals back to us than the other way round but that's another argument..
Obviously in Choudary's case there is no solution and he knows it..Only thing I can think of is see if we can get our Saudi friends to invite him round the Embassy for tea and a bone saw..
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
To eventually answer your question. ( Sorry for the delay)
I don't think anything will happen whatsoever to them.
However, I do believe for obvious reasons that open season of British jobs for EU nationals will finish .
The floodgates are rightly closing.
Are you seriously suggesting that preference is given to EU nationals for what you call 'British Jobs'?
The mind boggles!
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Preference is given to people who work hard and do the job properly. And want the job in the first place.
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.......And for less money?
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.......And for less money?
So now you're suggesting these EU nationals come here and say "we'll work for less than you're advertising the job for"? Seriously?
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If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse.
If that stable is in Britain then it’s a British dog.!
No. It's a foreign dog born in Britain.
So are you saying the children of British service men born in Germany for example, are German and not British?
Where you are born is nothing to do with the matter and you know it, but it doesn't suit your left wing agenda.
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If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse.
If that stable is in Britain then it’s a British dog.!
No. It's a foreign dog born in Britain.
So are you saying the children of British service men born in Germany for example, are German and not British?
Where you are born is nothing to do with the matter and you know it, but it doesn't suit your left wing agenda.
Well the German administrators see British military bases as British soil, so, er...
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Reality is Lion whether we like it or not he is British and therefore entitled to everything that everybody else is..He has the perfect storm in his favour..
It makes my blood boil it really does and if he (cough) vanished tomorrow I would smile but that's nothing to do with being left or right wing but the law of the land..
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If a dog is born in a stable it does not make it a horse.
If that stable is in Britain then it’s a British dog.!
No. It's a foreign dog born in Britain.
So are you saying the children of British service men born in Germany for example, are German and not British?
Where you are born is nothing to do with the matter and you know it, but it doesn't suit your left wing agenda.
Why is he foreign.? I’m not defending a convicted criminal (I didnt decide his sentence did I) but just because his heritage is from elsewhere doesn’t make him less British..
The undertones in your arguments are very disturbing, and very sad in this day and age..
Where you are born has everything to do with the matter..
My agenda isn’t left or indeed any “wing” - it is personal if you can be arsed to read the thread properly..
At least Boomstick had the courtesy to answer my question - he/she couldn’t answer it properly as no one can, which is my entire point as there is no clarity yet on many of the issues with Brexit..
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
To eventually answer your question. ( Sorry for the delay)
I don't think anything will happen whatsoever to them.
Thanks for coming back, no issues with a delayed response..
You hit the nail on the head saying you “think” nothing would happen to my family - I “think” the same but let’s be clear here, “think” doesn’t mean “know”..
It’s the uncertainty that’s the issue.. and just enough of the electorate voted to bring this uncertainty on all of us..
I am by no means tarring everyone with the same brush but if enough folks have the same opinions as one individual on this thread, god help us all.!!
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.......And for less money?
So now you're suggesting these EU nationals come here and say "we'll work for less than you're advertising the job for"? Seriously?
I'm suggesting that companies can reduce wages in the UK because EU nationals will fill the positions.
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.......And for less money?
So now you're suggesting these EU nationals come here and say "we'll work for less than you're advertising the job for"? Seriously?
I'm suggesting that companies can reduce wages in the UK because EU nationals will fill the positions.
Even though the evidence doesn't support that suggestion?
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/
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Depends on what evidence you choose to believe.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12063052/Mass-migration-driving-down-wages-offered-to-British-jobseekers.html
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.......And for less money?
So now you're suggesting these EU nationals come here and say "we'll work for less than you're advertising the job for"? Seriously?
I'm suggesting that companies can reduce wages in the UK because EU nationals will fill the positions.
They've raised the wages on offer and still British workers don't want to do 'British' jobs.
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Depends on what evidence you choose to believe.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12063052/Mass-migration-driving-down-wages-offered-to-British-jobseekers.html
Well mine is from 2017 and discusses EU and non-EU immigration and yours is from 2015 and makes no distinction between the two so I guess people have a choice on what they want to look at regarding up to date data on EU nationals reducing wages.
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Wilts. The question was only about EU immigrants!
Yours might be from an article dated in 2017 but it doesn't say when the research was carried out, does it!
Besides, does it really say enough to come down on your side of the argument?
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As far as I can see most remainiacs are like these environmentalist nut jobs who want us all driving electric cars within fourteen years, but have no idea where all the electricity is going to come from.
First of all, could you perhaps address people who have different views, with a bit of courtesy.?
Secondly, as I asked Boomstick earlier, can you tell me what will happen to EU residents currently here in the UK, when Brexit actually happens.??
Can you.??
To eventually answer your question. ( Sorry for the delay)
I don't think anything will happen whatsoever to them.
However, I do believe for obvious reasons that open season of British jobs for EU nationals will finish .
The floodgates are rightly closing.
Are you seriously suggesting that preference is given to EU nationals for what you call 'British Jobs'?
The mind boggles!
Where did I say that ?
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Well I work for the National Centre of Social Research and one of the Study/Surveys we do is the ‘British Social Attitudes Survey.’ which has been running since 1983 and is widely used by Government, Academics and the Media as to ‘What the British public are thinking’.
There are questions on the EU and Brexit and I can tell you the vast majority of people had not a clue as to what they were really voting for with an IN or OUT question.
Nobody had a clue that this was going to be such a complex process to leave the EU.
The customs Union was never mentioned was it, when we voted.
The single market was never mentioned was it, when we voted.
In my opinion we should stay in on a trading basis only as that was why we joined the Common market in 1974.
As for everything else we should not be getting told by EU what we can or cannot do. We are Britain a country in Europe not the other way round.
What on earth was Cameron thinking when he decided to have this ludicrous referendum.
What he should have been doing is standing up to the EU and re negotiating our membership.
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Well I work for the National Centre of Social Research and one of the Study/Surveys we do is the ‘British Social Attitudes Survey.’ which has been running since 1983 and is widely used by Government, Academics and the Media as to ‘What the British public are thinking’.
There are questions on the EU and Brexit and I can tell you the vast majority of people had not a clue as to what they were really voting for with an IN or OUT question.
Nobody had a clue that this was going to be such a complex process to leave the EU.
The customs Union was never mentioned was it, when we voted.
The single market was never mentioned was it, when we voted.
In my opinion we should stay in on a trading basis only as that was why we joined the Common market in 1974.
As for everything else we should not be getting told by EU what we can or cannot do. We are Britain a country in Europe not the other way round.
What on earth was Cameron thinking when he decided to have this ludicrous referendum.
What he should have been doing is standing up to the EU and re negotiating our membership.
Didn’t he try to renegotiate just prior to the referendum and he came back with nothing?
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Well I work for the National Centre of Social Research and one of the Study/Surveys we do is the ‘British Social Attitudes Survey.’ which has been running since 1983 and is widely used by Government, Academics and the Media as to ‘What the British public are thinking’.
There are questions on the EU and Brexit and I can tell you the vast majority of people had not a clue as to what they were really voting for with an IN or OUT question.
Nobody had a clue that this was going to be such a complex process to leave the EU.
The customs Union was never mentioned was it, when we voted.
The single market was never mentioned was it, when we voted.
In my opinion we should stay in on a trading basis only as that was why we joined the Common market in 1974.
As for everything else we should not be getting told by EU what we can or cannot do. We are Britain a country in Europe not the other way round.
What on earth was Cameron thinking when he decided to have this ludicrous referendum.
What he should have been doing is standing up to the EU and re negotiating our membership.
Didn’t he try to renegotiate just prior to the referendum and he came back with nothing?
Did he? I honestly don’t know.