Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Chris Black come back on January 01, 2019, 04:59:54 pm
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We have 45 points by game 26 in League One vs 34 points after 26 games last season.
We have now won as many games in League One (13) than we did in the ENTIRE season last year (13).
We have scored 47 goals in League One this season vs 52 for the ENTIRE season last year.
John Marquis has now scored more goals in League One this season (15) than he did in the ENTIRE League One season last year (14).
And finally...that goal by Copps does I think mean he has scored in 14 consecutive calendar years for Rovers.
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Simply lovely
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Great performance from start to finish, great to see Grant McCann and the players interacting with the supporters after the final whistle, Whiteman was in front of the stand giving high fives to the younger fans
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I don't think those stats read too badly on Fergie in all honesty. Like I said many times last season, it's not that he's a bad manager, it's just that he didn't seem to be getting the best out of a talented squad. Probably the biggest example is Whiteman. Ironically signed under Ferguson but never seemed to show that faith in him.
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Isn't failing to get the best out of the resources to hand the very definition of a poor manager?
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Well no. A poor manager would be one who doesn't know how to manage - tactically inept, can't scout good players, terrible motivator*. We under-achieved relative to our resources last season, but it would be short-sighted to say those things about Ferguson (and I was one of the few on here who suggested a change in manager last year, that wasn't the consensus by any means so would be weird to pretend that what's people were saying all along).
* I will say his man-management of certain players was weird.
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Having seen Malik Wilks causing havoc and yellow cards all afternoon, I remember Fergie saying he'd never play wingers!
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We underachieved relative to resources in each of his seasons, ranging from awfully (15/16 - that wasn't a great squad that he inherited but it was miles better than the historically woeful form he extracted from it), slightly in 16/17 (main job done but spectacularly missed out on a chance to win a title) to moderately in 17/18 (grey grinding shite, and not very effective grey grinding shite at that).
He was an excellent chooser of talent but gave every impression of being a control freak who didn't allow the talented squad he put together to perform to its ability.
In my book, in retrospect, he was a below-average manager, made to look better by the woeful one he replaced.
And hands up. I wasn't (mostly) calling for his head. Although I couldn't fathom how on earth he survived the second half of 16/17.
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Having seen Malik Wilks causing havoc and yellow cards all afternoon, I remember Fergie saying he'd never play wingers!
I wouldn't call Malik a winger.
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BST is on the money here.
We put up with pitiful mediocrity at best when even the blind could see that this was a team of largely capable players being mismanaged and we were the victims - having to watch that dirge game in, game out.
“He will come good”. He never did.
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I'll admit I was one of the "he'll come good brigade". I was seated by the experience of deciding that O'Driscoll was shite in 07/08.
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Very easy to say these things in retrospect. Too easy really. For football fans things seemingly need to be black or white all the time. We were sending Wilks back a few ago, now hes the best player in the squad.
You can't say Ferguson was a poor manager.
(It wasn't long ago Copps was saying Ferguson was one of the best managers he's worked under, and I don't take that for nothing)
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Ferguson WAS a poor manager.
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Ferguson WAS a poor manager.
You also said on Wilks...
Esdails left foot
Send him back to Leeds
Where do you stand on that one?
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Very easy to say these things in retrospect. Too easy really. For football fans things seemingly need to be black or white all the time. We were sending Wilks back a few ago, now hes the best player in the squad.
You can't say Ferguson was a poor manager.
(It wasn't long ago Copps was saying Ferguson was one of the best managers he's worked under, and I don't take that for nothing)
Actually, Copps, several people are saying exactly that and with clear justification. As BST says, failing to get the best out of the resources at your disposal surely is the very definition of a poor manager. Total polar opposite to SOD who showed he could not only get the best out of his resources but made the whole add up to more than the sum of it's parts.
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
We were never anywhere near the relegation zone last season.
It is embarrassing how many people moan about our promotion season.
Pompey were in there 3 seasons we came straight back with probably the easiest promotion in our history with 5 games to spare scoring far more goals than anyone in the division yet people complain about this.
Embarrassing
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I said it at the time, and the DFP said it yesterday, when the wheels fell off under Fergie, they fell off big time as you could see the players were playing in fear. The fear factor has been lifted from the off with McCann and that provides a base for players to improve. We're seeing that gradual improvement.
Yes, we will still have blips, but those blips are likely to be short lived which means going up the league is a real possibility.
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Let's not forget he was am improvement on dickov, was fairly good off the field, made some great signings and laid some good foundations for us to build again. He also improved players a lot.
His problems were man management, stubbornness and overall not being adventurous enough. He also let his ego get ahead of him hence leaving. His loss is massively our gain, but his work shouldn't go unnoticed.
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
We were never anywhere near the relegation zone last season.
It is embarrassing how many people moan about our promotion season.
Pompey were in there 3 seasons we came straight back with probably the easiest promotion in our history with 5 games to spare scoring far more goals than anyone in the division yet people complain about this.
Embarrassing
Can't speak for other people, but the reason i feel he failed was that his team came third in a one horse race. We should have won the league with ease with the gap we had, instead we came third. The blame for that falls at the managers door for me, and personally i'm glad hes gone. A poor man manager, tactically naive and in my opinion has built his manegerial career on the back of others.
Would he have been so good without daddy loaning him players, or without the expertise of Barry Fry in finding these gems in non league football?
Not a chance
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A manager who, having inherited an admittedly misfiring squad, turned it from a disappointing one to a catastrophically bad one, needed to do exceptionally well thereafter to be considered a net reasonable achiever.
Any assessment of him has to take into account that he led us through the worst extended run of form in our history, outside of Weaver and Bergara's stewardship. Yes, 16/17 went some way to righting that entirely self-inflicted disaster, but it didn't wipe the slate clean. Securing the title would have done.
Then, the football in 17/18 was turgidly dull - acceptable if winning, but awful to watch when it was just about scraping by.
The joyous football that McCann has got essentially the same squad playing emphasises how grim Ferguson's style was.
As a manager, you can be loved by being a success in terms of league position or the purveyor of aesthetically appealing fare.
Ferguson did neither for the majority of his reign. That McCann has transformed both features in months emphasises Ferguson's shortcomings.
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Which players did daddy loan him?
Also before that season started an awful lot of people were suggesting we had no chance of promotion. Yet we achieved it with 5 games to spare. So these same people changed their negative attention to not winning the title. The fact we won promotion so easily when they thought we had no chance was irrelevant
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A manager who, having inherited an admittedly misfiring squad, turned it from a disappointing one to a catastrophically bad one, needed to do exceptionally well thereafter to be considered a net reasonable achiever.
Any assessment of him has to take into account that he led us through the worst extended run of form in our history, outside of Weaver and Bergara's stewardship. Yes, 16/17 went some way to righting that entirely self-inflicted disaster, but it didn't wipe the slate clean. Securing the title would have done.
Then, the football in 17/18 was turgidly dull - acceptable if winning, but awful to watch when it was just about scraping by.
The joyous football that McCann has got essentially the same squad playing emphasises how grim Ferguson's style was.
As a manager, you can be loved by being a success in terms of league position or the purveyor of aesthetically appealing fare.
Ferguson did neither for the majority of his reign. That McCann has transformed both features in months emphasises Ferguson's shortcomings.
We were 2nd bottom when he took over so not sure why he took over only a disappointing side and turned it into a catastrophic one!
The squad he inherited was very poor and he left us what we have now, and the club has been improved dramatically behind the scenes according to gavin during fergies rein
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
We were never anywhere near the relegation zone last season.
It is embarrassing how many people moan about our promotion season.
Pompey were in there 3 seasons we came straight back with probably the easiest promotion in our history with 5 games to spare scoring far more goals than anyone in the division yet people complain about this.
Embarrassing
“Messing around ABOVE the relegation zone”.
We finished six points clear of relegation.
That is embarrassingly close given the resources available. And the football absolutely stank.
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Fergie did a fantastic job of getting us out of league 1 at the 1st attempt. He brought in some quality players too imo! Didn’t seem to get the best out of the players but credit where it’s due. Grant McCann is doing a superb job. I for 1 wasn’t convinced that he was the right replacement but happy to be proved wrong 😀⚽️👍
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
We were never anywhere near the relegation zone last season.
It is embarrassing how many people moan about our promotion season.
Pompey were in there 3 seasons we came straight back with probably the easiest promotion in our history with 5 games to spare scoring far more goals than anyone in the division yet people complain about this.
Embarrassing
“Messing around ABOVE the relegation zone”.
We finished six points clear of relegation.
That is embarrassingly close given the resources available. And the football absolutely stank.
Mate we won promotion with 5 games to spare scoring a load more goals than anyone else in the league and you say the football stank
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
We were never anywhere near the relegation zone last season.
It is embarrassing how many people moan about our promotion season.
Pompey were in there 3 seasons we came straight back with probably the easiest promotion in our history with 5 games to spare scoring far more goals than anyone in the division yet people complain about this.
Embarrassing
Can't speak for other people, but the reason i feel he failed was that his team came third in a one horse race. We should have won the league with ease with the gap we had, instead we came third. The blame for that falls at the managers door for me, and personally i'm glad hes gone. A poor man manager, tactically naive and in my opinion has built his manegerial career on the back of others.
Would he have been so good without daddy loaning him players, or without the expertise of Barry Fry in finding these gems in non league football?
Not a chance
Barry fry is still there isn’t he, strange how they’ve never won promotion again if he was the reason behind their promotions when fergie was manager
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You are on your own here. There is I think pretty much consensus among most folk that he underperformed vs budget and players available, that during his reign the football was mainly bad rather than good, his tactical nouse and motivation were lacking, and both the relegation, title collapse and sheer banality of the final season were all deeply regrettable - all while buying some good players but also frittering away substantial parts of one of the biggest budgets in that league on some very questionable decisions.
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Dickos - no-one (or at least no-one that I'm aware of) is saying that promotion should have been a given, or that getting promoted was an underachievement, but being in the position that we were for the title and blowing it was very poor. I was delighted that we were promoted but the circumstances thereafter left a bitter taste. You say people complaining about it is an embarrassment but pretty much every Rovers fan that I know feels exactly the same way about it.
I'm not sure why there's this constant return or comparisons to Fergie's reign though. The majority of fans think he under-achieved as a manager and weren't sad to see him go. And you'd have to be daft to not realise what an improvement McCann has been.
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Which players did daddy loan him?
Also before that season started an awful lot of people were suggesting we had no chance of promotion. Yet we achieved it with 5 games to spare. So these same people changed their negative attention to not winning the title. The fact we won promotion so easily when they thought we had no chance was irrelevant
These two for a start
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2010/dec/30/sir-alex-ferguson-darren-preston
These two for a start.
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
We were never anywhere near the relegation zone last season.
It is embarrassing how many people moan about our promotion season.
Pompey were in there 3 seasons we came straight back with probably the easiest promotion in our history with 5 games to spare scoring far more goals than anyone in the division yet people complain about this.
Embarrassing
I don’t think that people were/ are complaining about us getting promoted with five games to spare.
The reason people are dissatisfied is that we should have won the title that season and finished third when with five games to go we were odds on to win it.
That is what was the disappointing thing from that season.
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You are on your own here. There is I think pretty much consensus among most folk that he underperformed vs budget and players available, that during his reign the football was mainly bad rather than good, his tactical nouse and motivation were lacking, and both the relegation, title collapse and sheer banality of the final season were all deeply regrettable - all while buying some good players but also frittering away substantial parts of one of the biggest budgets in that league on some very questionable decisions.
I don’t think I am, there we’re plenty coming on here during his reign stating all that mattered that season was promotion and it didn’t matter which position we finished in. As I said earlier much bigger clubs with bigger budgets than ours were stuck in that league for a very long time.
We bounced straight back and people like you were predicting a season of struggle, yet you still weren’t happy when we smashed your pessimism out the water with promotion with 5 games to spare.
Why you have to keep comparing this season to last every other game is also beyond me
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There were plenty making the point consistently that Ferguson was delivering performances that had that squad of players underperforming. He was detracting from the players he had, not adding value. Let us not forget that he had a play off budget and we were messing around above relegation zone.
We were never anywhere near the relegation zone last season.
It is embarrassing how many people moan about our promotion season.
Pompey were in there 3 seasons we came straight back with probably the easiest promotion in our history with 5 games to spare scoring far more goals than anyone in the division yet people complain about this.
Embarrassing
I don’t think that people were/ are complaining about us getting promoted with five games to spare.
The reason people are dissatisfied is that we should have won the title that season and finished third when with five games to go we were odds on to win it.
That is what was the disappointing thing from that season.
I’m not suggesting people are complaining about that though am I, it just never gets acknowledged. We were very good that season and won promotion at a canter but all people talk about is the last 5 games not the other 41
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That was not my position. Something else you have made up.
He was below par. If you like below par managers then keep defending him. Nigh on everyone else thought that generosity of our Board deserved more than the mediocrity we were being served up. Perhaps you did not.
Onwards and upwards!
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We bought our way out of Lg2, no more no less, so taking our foot off the gas towards the end was seriously bad management.
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Wonder if we would be disappointed to finish third this season?
Some seem to forget the horrendous injuries we had last season.
It could be said that Fergie built a youngish squad that only needed another year to develop, an injury free run and the addition of one or two shrewd signings to become successful.
McCann's achieved the latter bringing in Kane and Wilks but he's always said what a good side he inherited and how fortunate he's been for the infrastructure in place at the club - much of it down to the much maligned Fergie.
And he would be the first to say he's won nothing yet.
When he has four promotions on his record, like his predecessor, wonder how much stick he will get then?
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We bought our way out of Lg2, no more no less, so taking our foot off the gas towards the end was seriously bad management.
100% agree with this.
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We bought our way out of Lg2, no more no less, so taking our foot off the gas towards the end was seriously bad management.
Give over
Lots of sides spend money and not all of them go straight back up.
Portsmouth, Leeds, Sheffield United, Wednesday, forest,
All had massive budgets for their respective league and none bounced straight back
I know you don’t think just having money is that simple and guarantees anything.
And it is embarrassing that we have supporters who think different
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McCann is doing a great job and he’s transformed the performances. Even he has said numerous times Ferguson was one of the best managers he played for.
The issue is, lots of people didn’t want Ferguson to start with so even when we won promotion they needed to still find issues with it.
People said we’d struggle in league two but we absolutely romped promotion people said we needed a season to stabilise in league one that’s exactly what we had.
Gavin said he was very happy with Ferguson had lbrought the club, the interviews still on the website full of praise for him and the job he’s done
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Funny though, Dickos.
All that ability, and yet he flounced off claiming that he didn't have a budget that he could do anything with this season.
And yet...here we are. Better performances. Better results.
Makes you wonder...
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Funny though, Dickos.
All that ability, and yet he flounced off claiming that he didn't have a budget that he could do anything with this season.
And yet...here we are. Better performances. Better results.
Makes you wonder...
But billy when I stated that he’d left the club because of the money available to him this was denied by the people who know.
Now surely it can’t be twisted full circle to say that’s why he left now it suits those same people now can it?
Or maybe it can
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We bought our way out of Lg2, no more no less, so taking our foot off the gas towards the end was seriously bad management.
Give over
Lots of sides spend money and not all of them go straight back up.
Portsmouth, Leeds, Sheffield United, Wednesday, forest,
All had massive budgets for their respective league and none bounced straight back
I know you don’t think just having money is that simple and guarantees anything.
And it is embarrassing that we have supporters who think different
You're the one who should give over.
We maintained a LG1 budget in Lg2, kept players like Tommy Rowe etc. It was that simple, whether you agree or disagree. You're right, I don't believe that just having money is the answer, but on this occasion it was.
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It’s not that simple
Why did it take Pompey three years then spending more than us, why did we beat Leeds at Wembley,
Dozens of examples of clubs that have failed to bounce back at the first attempt but because you dont like the bloke who did it then it’s not an achievement.
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From the outside - it looks to me like DF wanted more than the board were prepared to trust him with to get the results and performances they all wanted.
GM, on the other hand, appears to be more than happy with what the board have trusted him with and is on the right lines towards getting the results and performances they all wanted.
I would imagine, tho this is pure speculation, that the budgets were not too dissimilar. This would suggest to me two things:
Firstly, it seems GM is better at getting more out of the things at his disposal (and a big nod to DF for putting a lot of the infrastructure in place with the board.)
Secondly, I would imagine that the board are pleased with what he is achieving and this will make them more inclined to trust him with a larger amount next time as he clearly seems to have spent most of it well.
Good times around the corner again I think, with the club in a better overall long term and stable position than they have been the last two good times.
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From the outside - it looks to me like DF wanted more than the board were prepared to trust him with to get the results and performances they all wanted.
GM, on the other hand, appears to be more than happy with what the board have trusted him with and is on the right lines towards getting the results and performances they all wanted.
I would imagine, tho this is pure speculation, that the budgets were not too dissimilar. This would suggest to me two things:
Firstly, it seems GM is better at getting more out of the things at his disposal (and a big nod to DF for putting a lot of the infrastructure in place with the board.)
Secondly, I would imagine that the board are pleased with what he is achieving and
this will make them more inclined to trust him with a larger amount next time as he clearly seems to have spent most of it well.
Agree pretty much with all of that
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It’s not that simple
Why did it take Pompey three years then spending more than us, why did we beat Leeds at Wembley,
Dozens of examples of clubs that have failed to bounce back at the first attempt but because you isn’t like the bloke who did it then it’s not an achievement.
Quoting other clubs doesn't prove your point, for every one that's failed there'll be dozens who have succeeded because of the funds available. The finishing positions in all the leagues generally reflect the budgets available, that's why everyone is so keen to know how big budgets are.
I'm personal friends with a couple of Portsmouth directors who were in place when that was happening, so I would rule that one out as finances were never a strong option for them. And don't forget that Leeds had points deducted at the start of the season and changed managers mid-season. They should have been out of that league at the first time of asking, which more or less proves my point.
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Anyway, it's now 2019. It's McCann's team (albeit Fergie set up good foundations) and I think it's fair to say, we're getting good value for money from a fans perspective and probably from a budget perspective.
Let's put the past behind us and look forward, together, and enjoy.
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Not many sides bounce straight back up after relegation there will be far more that don’t than do.
And the conscensous of most on here was that we wouldn’t get promoted that season, the poll is still there to view.
We exceeded most expectations that season but in hindsight now people are saying we only did what was expected which I’m afraid is rubbish.
You only need to look at this forum from that summer for the proof
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Anyway, it's now 2019. It's McCann's team (albeit Fergie set up good foundations) and I think it's fair to say, we're getting good value for money from a fans perspective and probably from a budget perspective.
Let's put the past behind us and look forward, together, and enjoy.
I agree, he is doing a great job and could end up being a legend.
It’s just the constant comparison with last season every other week that is so tedious.
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Anyway, it's now 2019. It's McCann's team (albeit Fergie set up good foundations) and I think it's fair to say, we're getting good value for money from a fans perspective and probably from a budget perspective.
Let's put the past behind us and look forward, together, and enjoy.
I agree, he is doing a great job and could end up being a legend.
It’s just the constant comparison with last season every other week that is so tedious.
Agree with that last sentence!
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Spot on DBR. Lets just enjoy the good time that we're having now and celebrate the outstanding manager that we have got. Whichever way you look at it he's transformed the team in every possible way. The worry we should have is how long can we keep him before some big time Charlie club wants to poach him.