Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: albie on March 29, 2019, 02:58:06 pm
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Accounts up to June 2018 have now gone up on Companies House:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03739676/filing-history
Less detail than in earlier statements.
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£2.8M extra liabilities. ie double what it was the previous year.
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£2.8M extra liabilities. ie double what it was the previous year.
So the loss was about the same then... the notes state it being owed to club Doncaster.
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inb4 amateur accountants interpreting the information wrong
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inb4 amateur accountants interpreting the information wrong
So in normal people speak, are we richer or poorer?
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Not enough detail given on Profit/loss, or on key components like staff costs, to make for an overview.
Compare with the accounts for 2015, and you see what is missing.
DRFC are perfectly within rights to submit small business accounts in this form, but it does not help with transparency.
Disappointing, IMHO.
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Not enough detail given on Profit/loss, or on key components like staff costs, to make for an overview.
Compare with the accounts for 2015, and you see what is missing.
DRFC are perfectly within rights to submit small business accounts in this form, but it does not help with transparency.
Disappointing, IMHO.
We've always sat down with the club and gone through the accounts together and this year won't be any different. We publish the detail and any questions we need answering on here, how is that disappointing?
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I think we could contrast our accounts with those of our neighbours at Scunthorpe. They managed to lose £83k a week last year, a total of £4.3m for the year.
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£83k per week !!!!!!!!!
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Just had a quick glance and looks to me like we made an accounting loss of almost £2.8m last year - £53.5k a week. Not on the same level of Scunthorpe but not a million miles away. Big cost for the mediocrity that was served up!
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inb4 amateur accountants interpreting the information wrong
So in normal people speak, are we richer or poorer?
dunno tbh, don't currently have a working computer at home and can't be f**ked trying to compare on my phone 😂
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Not enough detail given on Profit/loss, or on key components like staff costs, to make for an overview.
Compare with the accounts for 2015, and you see what is missing.
DRFC are perfectly within rights to submit small business accounts in this form, but it does not help with transparency.
Disappointing, IMHO.
We've always sat down with the club and gone through the accounts together and this year won't be any different. We publish the detail and any questions we need answering on here, how is that disappointing?
We?
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SM,
Really surprised by your reply.
Great that the VSC discuss the accounts with the club, and report back, but in no way is that a substitute for publishing the full data.
The reason that a more complete set of accounts is needed is to enable like for like comparison with other clubs who do publish this detail.
You give a figure for losses at Scunny alongside those of DRFC, but that does not explain how those losses were incurred at either club.
As such, it is not a helpful comparison. You might be mixing apples with oranges.
Choosing not to explain profit and loss does not allow fans to see how the business is improving or deteriorating in specific areas of activity.
Anyway, in the meantime here is some explanation from Kieran Maguire:
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire
Sunlight is always the best disinfectant!
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At least we're not Bradford!
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It’s not important that we know anything , only that we have a board who gives a sh**. Long may it continue. 🤫
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SM,
Really surprised by your reply.
Great that the VSC discuss the accounts with the club, and report back, but in no way is that a substitute for publishing the full data.
The reason that a more complete set of accounts is needed is to enable like for like comparison with other clubs who do publish this detail.
You give a figure for losses at Scunny alongside those of DRFC, but that does not explain how those losses were incurred at either club.
As such, it is not a helpful comparison. You might be mixing apples with oranges.
Choosing not to explain profit and loss does not allow fans to see how the business is improving or deteriorating in specific areas of activity.
Anyway, in the meantime here is some explanation from Kieran Maguire:
https://twitter.com/KieranMaguire
Sunlight is always the best disinfectant!
Albie,
We get to see the full accounts, and ask questions around and on any aspect of that we wish. In my reply I didn't pretend to be offering a detailed comparison between either club but what I do know is that we as a trust can sit with the club and discuss the detail and then publish a response like we always do, yet I know that Scunthorpe trust don't have that luxury. To correct me on explaining the detail about our losses is disingenuous as we haven't yet sat and discussed this with the club like we normally do, you could at least have some patience and allow us to do that.
Strange that you should quote Kieran as a source, him being a personal friend and all!
PS. It's easy to see where Scunthorpe's money has gone, they've spent it all on players wages, when salaries are 150% of turnover it doesn't take much working out.
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Not enough detail given on Profit/loss, or on key components like staff costs, to make for an overview.
Compare with the accounts for 2015, and you see what is missing.
DRFC are perfectly within rights to submit small business accounts in this form, but it does not help with transparency.
Disappointing, IMHO.
We've always sat down with the club and gone through the accounts together and this year won't be any different. We publish the detail and any questions we need answering on here, how is that disappointing?
We?
Yep! You struggling with that Dave?
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SM - given you’ve yet to go through the accounts with the club will there be any opportunity to ask questions on behalf of the fans and feedback on here?
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SM - given you’ve yet to go through the accounts with the club will there be any opportunity to ask questions on behalf of the fans and feedback on here?
Yep, absolutely.
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Great, Can you ask them how much the car boot makes each year? thanks.
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Great, Can you ask them how much the car boot makes each year? thanks.
Strange question
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I can accept we have good owners and the club as a business is being run prudently..
As a supporter, that’s all I need to know..
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I can accept we have good owners and the club as a business is being run prudently..
As a supporter, that’s all I need to know..
Yep, I'd agree with that. However as a supporters trust it falls upon us to carry out due diligence into the ownership and financial health of the club on an ongoing basis.
As part of the MOU that we signed up to some months ago it's clearly laid out that both parties will engage to ensure that happens.
There is certainly no conspiracies or secretive arrangements in place to keep DRFC supporters in the dark over these things.
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I can accept we have good owners and the club as a business is being run prudently..
As a supporter, that’s all I need to know..
This is one of the most sensible posts I've ever seen on here.
There is also the checks and balances provided, alongside the additional information and and assistance provided by SM.
Sometimes it's just nice to see in black and white. :-)
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Not enough detail given on Profit/loss, or on key components like staff costs, to make for an overview.
Compare with the accounts for 2015, and you see what is missing.
DRFC are perfectly within rights to submit small business accounts in this form, but it does not help with transparency.
Disappointing, IMHO.
We've always sat down with the club and gone through the accounts together and this year won't be any different. We publish the detail and any questions we need answering on here, how is that disappointing?
We?
Yep! You struggling with that Dave?
Wasn’t sure if it was the royal ‘we’ or not Fred, or whether others are involved?
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Not enough detail given on Profit/loss, or on key components like staff costs, to make for an overview.
Compare with the accounts for 2015, and you see what is missing.
DRFC are perfectly within rights to submit small business accounts in this form, but it does not help with transparency.
Disappointing, IMHO.
We've always sat down with the club and gone through the accounts together and this year won't be any different. We publish the detail and any questions we need answering on here, how is that disappointing?
We?
Yep! You struggling with that Dave?
Wasn’t sure if it was the royal ‘we’ or not Fred, or whether others are involved?
Still not sure what your point is. As I'm sure you've gathered from the answers on this thread I'm talking about the VSC (you could understand that surely?) but I also know you don't see the point of a supporters trust as you've mentioned on previous occasions.
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When will we know how much the cup run made the club and will that be given to GM on top of the budget he will be given. Also what are the plans for next season should we stay in L1.? Same budget? Smaller? Bigger? Not sure if this is the right time for you to ask Martin. Thanks for the hard work you do for us supporters Martin. Kutgw.
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When will we know how much the cup run made the club and will that be given to GM on top of the budget he will be given. Also what are the plans for next season should we stay in L1.? Same budget? Smaller? Bigger? Not sure if this is the right time for you to ask Martin. Thanks for the hard work you do for us supporters Martin. Kutgw.
Will have to wait for the next set of accounts to be filed to see the cup run impact - so this time next year, unless the club disclose it first
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Not enough detail given on Profit/loss, or on key components like staff costs, to make for an overview.
Compare with the accounts for 2015, and you see what is missing.
DRFC are perfectly within rights to submit small business accounts in this form, but it does not help with transparency.
Disappointing, IMHO.
We've always sat down with the club and gone through the accounts together and this year won't be any different. We publish the detail and any questions we need answering on here, how is that disappointing?
We?
Yep! You struggling with that Dave?
Wasn’t sure if it was the royal ‘we’ or not Fred, or whether others are involved?
Still not sure what your point is. As I'm sure you've gathered from the answers on this thread I'm talking about the VSC (you could understand that surely?) but I also know you don't see the point of a supporters trust as you've mentioned on previous occasions.
Sorry, I wasn’t trying to make a point merely asking a question.
The clue was the question mark.
Just wondered who these ‘we’ were, but if you don’t want to answer that’s okay.
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He tells you and you go 'if you don't want to answer that's okay'? That's a 'nothing has changed' as good as any Theresa May has come out with.
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When will we know how much the cup run made the club and will that be given to GM on top of the budget he will be given. Also what are the plans for next season should we stay in L1.? Same budget? Smaller? Bigger? Not sure if this is the right time for you to ask Martin. Thanks for the hard work you do for us supporters Martin. Kutgw.
I don't know all the answers, but I have had a chat about this. Firstly the budget will be 'a competitive' one, much like the one we already have, although that may be increased depending on circumstances. It certainly won't be cut, as we seek to remain competitive and give ourselves the opportunity to get promoted out of this division. We can't buy our way out of this one, it would take far too much but we can keep it at a level that gives us chances. Our owners have committed to the level of spending for quite some years now, which will mean a subsidy by them. We're still not at that sustainable stage, although we're getting closer.
The cup windfall hasn't been spent yet. I do know there's a desire for it to have a lasting benefit but what that is has not been decided.
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Nevermind transfers, I'd love to see some of that FA Cup money going to upgrade the training facilities at Cantley Park.
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Nevermind transfers, I'd love to see some of that FA Cup money going to upgrade the training facilities at Cantley Park.
That's the thought process RA.
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Nevermind transfers, I'd love to see some of that FA Cup money going to upgrade the training facilities at Cantley Park.
so you don't want to turn our current top six team into a top two team?
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sport is all about seizing the moment.
we don't need new training facilities to get us promoted next year, we need a couple of players to improve our first 11 (not squad players as happened this year).
instead you want to hide behind this myth of building for tomorrow.
and if we do go up this year via the play offs we'll need every penny we have to be chucked into that transfer budget.
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Couldn’t disagree more..
Investing in the future does not equate to a lack of ambition.
Yes we always need to maintain decent investment in players but not at risk to the club’s existence..
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I agree. Longer term investment will benefit more.
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Couldn’t disagree more..
Investing in the future does not equate to a lack of ambition.
Yes we always need to maintain decent investment in players but not at risk to the club’s existence..
I don't see how investing a one off windfall in the current team will put the club's existence in danger?
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Nevermind transfers, I'd love to see some of that FA Cup money going to upgrade the training facilities at Cantley Park.
so you don't want to turn our current top six team into a top two team?
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sport is all about seizing the moment.
we don't need new training facilities to get us promoted next year, we need a couple of players to improve our first 11 (not squad players as happened this year).
instead you want to hide behind this myth of building for tomorrow.
and if we do go up this year via the play offs we'll need every penny we have to be chucked into that transfer budget.
I want this club to be here and capable of thriving in 10, 20, 50 years so my kids and their kids can go to see Rovers every Saturday. Improving our training facilities will do that, blowing a load of money hard-earned in the cup on transfers that may or may not work out won't do that. I'm not "hiding behind" anything thank you.
We spent over a million pounds in transfer money one summer less than 10 years ago. A few years after doing so we were in League Two. Short-termism won't get you far, not in football nor in life.
I think most Rovers fans would be happy to see investment in the training ground, especially if you've seen what it looks like.
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Couldn’t disagree more..
Investing in the future does not equate to a lack of ambition.
Yes we always need to maintain decent investment in players but not at risk to the club’s existence..
I don't see how investing a one off windfall in the current team will put the club's existence in danger?
That’s not what you said though, or if you meant that, it wasn’t clear..
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Nevermind transfers, I'd love to see some of that FA Cup money going to upgrade the training facilities at Cantley Park.
so you don't want to turn our current top six team into a top two team?
.
sport is all about seizing the moment.
we don't need new training facilities to get us promoted next year, we need a couple of players to improve our first 11 (not squad players as happened this year).
instead you want to hide behind this myth of building for tomorrow.
and if we do go up this year via the play offs we'll need every penny we have to be chucked into that transfer budget.
You're missing the point. As I've already said we can't buy our way out of this division, the windfall is nowhere near big enough to do that, but we can invest it wisely so it'll have a lasting benefit. That's the sensible option.
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Football has changed massively over the last 15 years or so.Sports science and preparation are now a major part to be a successful club..
The problem is for lower league teams is that money is so tight on players wages/budgets that improvements in this area are a bit down the essential pecking order...So when you get a bonus income like our cup run it's only common sense that the money generated is spent on long term benefits rather than chancy short term player signings..The improved facilities these funds provide can benefit every player/manager for a extended period of time...
It will also help in making up players minds who are potential signings..Cantley has actually come a long way over the last decade but is still lacking in many areas..
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I wonder if the club considered selling up at Cantley Park and transferring the facility to the Keepmoat?
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Football has changed massively over the last 15 years or so.Sports science and preparation are now a major part to be a successful club..
The problem is for lower league teams is that money is so tight on players wages/budgets that improvements in this area are a bit down the essential pecking order...So when you get a bonus income like our cup run it's only common sense that the money generated is spent on long term benefits rather than chancy short term player signings..The improved facilities these funds provide can benefit every player/manager for a extended period of time...
It will also help in making up players minds who are potential signings..Cantley has actually come a long way over the last decade but is still lacking in many areas..
why assume that the players we sign are going to be chancy signings? I'd take the view that we'd trust the current manager and his scouts to bring in a couple of young hungry skilful players that would make the team better. If we don't trust him with the money then why is he still our manager?
also if I were a footballer offered a contract I'd be looking at things like -
- wages
- length of contract
- win bonus
- strength of squad
- manager and coach
- chances of getting promotion
sports science would not be high on the list at all.
I do get the idea of investing in the "back office". But its "front of house" where all the money should be spent until there are no obvious areas to improve.
ATM we have several areas in the current starting 11 we have to address before we can look at luxuries like new training facilities
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[/quote]why assume that the players we sign are going to be chancy signings? I'd take the view that we'd trust the current manager and his scouts to bring in a couple of young hungry skilful players that would make the team better. If we don't trust him with the money then why is he still our manager?
also if I were a footballer offered a contract I'd be looking at things like -
- wages
- length of contract
- win bonus
- strength of squad
- manager and coach
- chances of getting promotion
sports science would not be high on the list at all.
I do get the idea of investing in the "back office". But its "front of house" where all the money should be spent until there are no obvious areas to improve.
ATM we have several areas in the current starting 11 we have to address before we can look at luxuries like new training facilities
[/quote]
Because it doesn't matter who your manager is some signings work some don't and every signing is a chance..Sports science and training facilities are essential..If the money spent improves a player by even half a percent it pays for itself many times over..I just think what you are saying is very short term thinking..
I trust GM to improve the squad within the set playing budget and in fairness he has said himself that some investment in Cantley Park would help him massively and that's what he wants the money spending on too and he's the manager who knows more than you and I..
I don't see it as Luxuries like you do,i see it as part of essential development of the club and the team..As for your points on players,we lost a lot of players over the years who were shown round belle vue and decided that's not were they wanted to be regardless of contracts offered.We are sorted in that department now with the Keepmoat but Cantley needs some improvements..
And besides that Pool table needs recovering and those table tennis bats look knackered ;-)
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why assume that the players we sign are going to be chancy signings? I'd take the view that we'd trust the current manager and his scouts to bring in a couple of young hungry skilful players that would make the team better. If we don't trust him with the money then why is he still our manager?
also if I were a footballer offered a contract I'd be looking at things like -
- wages
- length of contract
- win bonus
- strength of squad
- manager and coach
- chances of getting promotion
sports science would not be high on the list at all.
I do get the idea of investing in the "back office". But its "front of house" where all the money should be spent until there are no obvious areas to improve.
ATM we have several areas in the current starting 11 we have to address before we can look at luxuries like new training facilities
[/quote]
Because it doesn't matter who your manager is some signings work some don't and every signing is a chance..Sports science and training facilities are essential..If the money spent improves a player by even half a percent it pays for itself many times over..I just think what you are saying is very short term thinking..
I trust GM to improve the squad within the set playing budget and in fairness he has said himself that some investment in Cantley Park would help him massively and that's what he wants the money spending on too and he's the manager who knows more than you and I..
I don't see it as Luxuries like you do,i see it as part of essential development of the club and the team..As for your points on players,we lost a lot of players over the years who were shown round belle vue and decided that's not were they wanted to be regardless of contracts offered.We are sorted in that department now with the Keepmoat but Cantley needs some improvements..
And besides that Pool table needs recovering and those table tennis bats look knackered ;-)
[/quote]ok I take your point about the pool table. Didn't realise things were so bad :lol:
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I'd rather we have the facilities to sign a player for £100K and turn him into a £2million player regularly. Rather than just once splash the cash. Also, if the first thing we look at is where we can improve the team before we spend on other areas of the club then we'll never spend on the other areas as there will always be improvements we can make in the team.
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For me it’s all about balance. We should be looking to improve infrastructure and facilities that will have a positive long term impact on development of players, but given how we’ve done this year it’s important that we don’t stand still or even regress relative to the rest of the division next war. Given what we’ve made from the cup run we should have the ability to focus on both, and I’ve got every faith that the bird will strike the right balance.