Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: SydneyRover on September 29, 2019, 08:40:03 pm
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''From 40 hospitals to six: how the Tories' NHS numbers don't add up
Experts say it is hard to know how much new money Boris Johnson’s government intends to put into the NHS''
Anyone here work in the hospital system and would like to comment?
“On the face of it, the various schemes being pledged by the government certainly sound like substantial investment, but these piecemeal announcements are not the same as having a proper, multi-year capital funding plan,” said Richard Murray, chief executive of the King’s Fund, the health thinktank. “The lack of clarity around how the new schemes have been selected and how the pledges fit within the Department of Health and Social Care’s overall financial settlement makes it difficult to tell how generous the government is being.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/29/from-40-hospitals-to-six-tories-nhs-numbers-dont-add-up
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https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1178679316189601792?s=19 (https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1178679316189601792?s=19)
Fair play, not as good as what Labour put forward but at least they're trying.
Slight point, the youngest Millennials are currently 22/23, so will be 27/28 in 5 years so won't even be affected by this.
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Here’s a tory jibe, it’s all uncosted
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John Peinnar discussing the spending promises on R5 tonight saying very little of it is new money. The NHS money is a 12 month old pledge. He mentioned several other examples currently being pushed by Johnson which were in fact provisioned by Hammond.
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Never, in the field of human dishonesty, has so much been promised by so few to so many with so little to back it up.
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Never, in the field of human dishonesty, has so much been promised by so few to so many with so little to back it up.
This new fangled 3D technology will sort it all out, ask Esther McVey, she’s well on the ball with Autocad 😂😂😂😂😂😂
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2019/sep/29/ben-jennings-on-brexit-and-the-tory-party-conference-cartoon
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Never, in the field of human dishonesty, has so much been promised by so few to so many with so little to back it up.
This new fangled 3D technology will sort it all out, ask Esther McVey, she’s well on the ball with Autocad 😂😂😂😂😂😂
https://mobile.twitter.com/christhebarker/status/1178662337001201664
3D an all. That'll be a challenge for some of the Leave supporters with their 1 dimensional arguments.
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Looks like Ian Dunkin Donut has come up with a big vote winner;
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-raise-state-pension-age-18953679
Work until you drop.
Go down well on the doorstep canvassing, that will!
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Most Tory voters have retired already and are busy pulling up the rope ladder behind them.
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Progress on the Tory manifesto;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/30/fracking-lobbyist-hired-to-draw-up-tory-manifesto-rachel-wolf?CMP=share_btn_tw
I am sure commercial considerations will not intervene.
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Progress on the Tory manifesto;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/30/fracking-lobbyist-hired-to-draw-up-tory-manifesto-rachel-wolf?CMP=share_btn_tw
I am sure commercial considerations will not intervene.
I'm sure you're right.
Hey, look at that flying pig!
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''Tories act to prevent NHS crisis hitting election hopes
No 10 plans to set up emergency unit to oversee the service as doctors warn of ‘extreme pressure’''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/02/tories-act-to-prevent-nhs-crisis-hitting-election-hopes
What problem? the NHS is well run, well funded, well staffed and the patients are well, outsourcing is solving any problems that may pop up in this well oiled machine.
ere Marge wot's all this emergency funding for the NHS abart? George luv they're worried the tory party will get sick on Dec 12th, want another drink? :)
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I don't know how many remember the manifesto pledge from 2015 to build "starter homes" at 80% of market price to help folk get their own place.
Well, here is how they got on:
https://www.channel4.com/news/no-starter-homes-built-despite-government-pledge-says-spending-watchdog
Now ignoring the fact that a 20% discount is too low to help most, and ignoring the need to expand the number of affordable homes in the rental sector, the sheer brass neck to completely disregard a promise made tells you how trustworthy these people are.
Unbelievable!
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Have to agree albie very poor, it’s not enough to help many people
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ere Marge wen was first art transplant? dunno why George?
no reason luv :)
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Tory DNA-privatization-new management does same work with highly inflated packages-sets about reducing wages and conditions of general workforce-asset strips-takes profit-sells to overseas company.
''Royal Mail applies for high court injunction in attempt to stop strike
Company claims there were ‘potential irregularities’ in ballot of CWU members''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/08/royal-mail-applies-for-high-court-injunction-in-attempt-to-stop-strike
Not saying that all of this applies to this situation but how many academies have overpaid 'headmasters' etc
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24 awful policies you can't forget in the 2019 general election
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/should-not-vote-conservative-24-20828738
Reading through these do they say to you, yeah more of the same please I can't get enough or this is a bit sad really I thought they wanted Britain to be a better country & more inclusive.
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Tory Fibs
53 seconds pure television gold today , showing both Sky News & the BBC destroy the Tory fake news on Labour’s spending. At one point, the Sky journalist struggles to contain their laughter at the ludicrousness of Tory claims
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I have a very good mate who paid for a flight to Thailand last year so he could go into one of their hospitals. The hospital fixed him up, after 2 years of utter failure by the NHS. The Thai doctor wrote a complete report on what was wrong, what had been done and how things would progress going forwards. When shown to the doctors in London who had failed to fix the problem, their general consensus was that the Thai doctor didn't know what he was talking about. Funny thing though, my mate is better. Cured. Fixed. How can that be? He pointed out to me that the NHS bill for medical negligence runs into the hundreds of millions a year. It is not a great health service. It can do wonderful things, it can do amazing things, but it makes a staggering number of serious mistakes, it delivers European and western world worst or near worst performances in all kinds of measures. We are blinded by our own arrogance once again....
One might wish to ponder why this should be? I can remember times when the NHS really was rather good indeed.
Cheers
BobG
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Bob.
If you measure the NHS outcomes normalised against amount spent, it is regularly up at the top of global lists.
The fact that our medical outcomes are worse than France or Holland or Germany or Sweden,or many other places, is due to the fact that we spend far, far less of our national income on the NHS than they do on their health systems.
Labour from 97-10 made a big effort to bring our spend up to reasonable levels. The Tories have imposed a decade long freeze on spending. It hasn't gone up at all as a percentage of GDP while this lot have been in power.
That's another fact by the way. You lot who support the Tories and use the NHS. You are actively voting for an NHS that has become less effective over time. Because,regardless of what they claim,you cannot trust the Tories with the NHS. They don't believe in it. And they ALWAYS strangle it of funds.
Here's the evidence.
(https://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/ukgs_line.php?title=Health%20Care&year=1940_2020&sname=United_Kingdom&units=p&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&spending0=1.47_1.19_1.14_1.17_1.27_1.42_1.55_2.02_2.14_2.33_2.65_3.37_3.19_3.07_3.00_3.00_3.06_3.14_3.21_3.29_3.36_3.59_3.48_3.51_3.50_3.65_3.78_3.97_3.97_3.86_4.02_4.09_4.12_4.05_4.67_4.94_4.93_4.70_4.66_4.57_5.05_5.24_5.12_4.72_4.67_4.56_4.50_4.36_4.28_4.30_4.30_4.59_5.02_5.35_5.34_5.52_5.07_4.98_4.91_5.06_5.08_5.32_5.57_5.81_6.23_6.61_6.74_6.74_7.14_6.96_7.56_7.45_7.34_7.27_7.26_7.22_7.24_7.16_7.14_7.17_7.37&legend=Health%20Care-total&source=a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_i_i_i_i_i_i_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_e_g)
Remember, this is when we've had Tory Governments.
1951-64
1970-74
1979-97
2010-
And Labour Govts have been
1945-51
1964-70
1974-79
1997-2010.
Look at those dates.
Look at that graph
Absorb the fact that pretty much every other advanced country spends 9-12% of GDP in health care.
And ask yourself if you REALLY think the NHS is better looked after in Tory hands, rather than Labour hands.
Look at the graph. No Tory Govt has EVER left office with the proportion of national income we spend on the NHS significantly higher than when they took over.
Not one. Ever.
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Further to that if more was spent on prevention there would be less strain on the NHS system. If one has to wait 2 weeks to see a gp then anything could happen in that time from a cold/flu going away or developing into pneumonia.
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I agree Billy. But that's not the point. It is a cost effective organisation. But it is not a good organisation. It is as good as the politicians in control of the pursestrings allow it to be. That was the point of my final remark.
BobG
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Yes I know Bob.
I don't do subtlety any more though. I take Churchill's advice.
When you have a point to make, hammer it home hard, once, twice, three times.
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Not sure it can even be said to be a cost effective organisation, Bob. The way that spend on agency staff has grown over the years means money is being poured into the coffers of private enterprise when it could easily be spent on improving the service and/or employment conditions for those working in it.
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Smoke and mirrors?
Claim
Boris Johnson said that postponing a planned cut in corporation tax from 19% to 17% would allow £6bn investment in the NHS
Verdict
Johnson’s claim that reducing the corporation tax rate would reduce the overall take is in line with IFS and HMRC analysis, and his proposals should free up more money for the NHS as he promises. But his statement also sharply contradicts previous longstanding Conservative arguments that cutting corporation tax has increased the Treasury’s overall tax take.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/18/will-boris-johnson-corporation-tax-reversal-free-up-6bn-for-nhs
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TORY DEMOCRACY UPDATE
Break law in referendum
✅
Attempt unlawful prorogation
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Suppress report into Russian interference
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Introduce voter registration
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Prevent Parliamentary scrutiny of deal
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Set up fake fact-check
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Ban journalists you don’t like
✅
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Asked about CCHQ impersonating an independent fact-check service,
Dominic Raab says "we will always abide by the rules", untruthfully.
Twitter already said that the dishonesty of the Conservative party violated its terms of service.
Raab is now lying about his party's lying.
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Asked about CCHQ impersonating an independent fact-check service,
Dominic Raab says "we will always abide by the rules", untruthfully.
Twitter already said that the dishonesty of the Conservative party violated its terms of service.
Raab is now lying about his party's lying.
Ralph Little (of The Royale Family fame) as been suspended by twitter for renaming his twitter the the exact name CPHQ named their twitter last night, CPHQ’s twitter is still active
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50492998
So National Insurance won't be getting cut then.
In the Tory Leadership campaign, he said he'd raise the threshold for paying 40% Income Tax to £80k. That one seems to have vanished, because he secured the votes of the Home Counties golf club set that he needed to win that vote. Now he's aiming for working class votes. And once he gets those...what's the betting he never said this?
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Ah the incredible shrinking NI trick.
First make an eyecatching promise to a load of working class voters for a good pr opportunity. Then later release details of a somewhat watered down actual policy. And they think this lot are on the side of the working man/woman!!
Some hasty revisions have been made to Boris Johnson’s equally hasty announcement of a national insurance (NI) contributions cut (see 2.11pm).
At first, the prime minister said the Tories were going to increase the threshold at which most workers begin paying NI to £12,000.
Later, speaking to ITV News, he said the initial increase would actually only be to £9,500, while a subsequent rise to a new figure of £12,500 was described as an “ambition”. That first change to NI, he wrongly claimed, would represent a “£500 cut for every working person”.
The latest version of the policy released by Tory HQ this evening is a lifting of the NI threshold from £8,632 to £9,500 in 2020/21, which the party now says will actually only be worth £100 per worker – or less than £2 per week – and an “ultimate ambition” to increase it to £12,500 at some point in the future.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/20/general-election-poverty-and-pledges-to-the-fore-after-tv-debate-live-news
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I suspect he shouldn't have said it but it's not a bad policy actually, bringing it in to sync with income tax is a good idea as it's too complicated for many. I understand it but I bet a lot do not. What I would do is bring that lower level up and probably increase the threshold for the reduced rate slightly to make some of the gap up.
The full manifesto is the key really to the detail though isn't it? You're all very quick to slam the Tories changes but no talk about Labour mystically dropping polices from their recent conference or the Lib Dems ever changing tact on referendum or not, I suppose that's alright as it's not the Tories?
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A couple of obvious things bfyp apart from you supporting an inveterate liar and a party that's got so much work to do because they've wrecked the economy, I personally struggle to believe the tory's will do anything promised following the election and as far as labour's policy is concerned no one has seen it yet. :)
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A couple of obvious things bfyp apart from you supporting an inveterate liar and a party that's got so much work to do because they've wrecked the economy, I personally struggle to believe the tory's will do anything promised following the election and as far as labour's policy is concerned no one has seen it yet. :)
Sydney, a labour mp was on tv this morning saying they wont deliver everything that's in it. If that isnt evidence for you I dont know what is.
To correct you I am not a tory supporter, I am yet to decide who I'll vote for. But I find the unbalanced debate incorrect.
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I apologise if I've interpreted your posting as support/voting for the Tories but I've heard this 'I am only here because I want a balanced debate' before.
The main and only reason the debate is unbalanced is that the Tories are an unmitigated disaster on any level and I would have thought it wouldn't much investigation to rule out voting for them, whomever you decide to vote for. What more could they do to wreck the UK?
You have the same freedom to report anything positive you can find about Johnson and Tories just as bb, bp or anyone. Knock yourself out. :)
If you take the release of a party's policy as drawing a line under their past 'in government' record then you should in all fairness do it for them all.
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Christ Al-f**king-mighty.
https://www.channel4.com/news/michael-gove-interview-on-truth-lies-and-brexit
What an unmitigated Kitson this excuse for a man is.
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That is one of the most frightening political interviews I have ever seen. That's a journalist asking Gove about issues of objective truth, and in response being told he is conducting a biased polemic.
That issue about hospitals. The Govt has announced it will build 6 new ones and spend £3m each on another 34 (that's about 1% of the cost of a new infirmary). Johnson has announced several times that they are building 40 new hospitals.
That journalist asks Gove to state clearly if they are building 6 or 40. Gove accuses him of not being objective and using a Labour attack line.
Do you not see how dangerous this is? If we lose the ability and the will to hold politicians to account for this denial of objective truth?
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If only all journo's were prepared to persist, reasonably and politely till they get the truth or their subject buries themselves, it sounded like Gove pitching for prince Andrew's job, they don't use the same advisor surely? :)
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Here's a journalist, from the right wing of the Tory party,giving his two pennorth.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1197256777844301824
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I apologise if I've interpreted your posting as support/voting for the Tories but I've heard this 'I am only here because I want a balanced debate' before.
The main and only reason the debate is unbalanced is that the Tories are an unmitigated disaster on any level and I would have thought it wouldn't much investigation to rule out voting for them, whomever you decide to vote for. What more could they do to wreck the UK?
You have the same freedom to report anything positive you can find about Johnson and Tories just as bb, bp or anyone. Knock yourself out. :)
If you take the release of a party's policy as drawing a line under their past 'in government' record then you should in all fairness do it for them all.
I would say until perhaps 2 years ago I'd have stated myself a tory, not now.
There are plenty of policies that I like from them so far;
1. Cut to income taxes.
2. Adjustments to national insurance.
3. the investment in police/NHS etc - i also like this from labour's point of view you'll note.
4. They have a clear Brexit policy that I support.
That's just for starters.
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BFYP.
Hang on.
I'm also in favour of everyone of those policies.
In isolation.
But here's the problem. How do you cut income from taxes and increase current spending?
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The £9bn a year EU contribution is a good start....
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BFYP.
There's no economic analysis that says we won't lose far more than that through lower economic activity.
It's simply not serious to see Brexit as an economic positive.
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In a new low, the Tories have set up a fake Labour website.
From the FT:
"Visit labourmanifesto.co.uk and you will find a Conservative-branded site that criticizes Labour’s policy platform for its stances on Brexit, taxation and further referendums. Unlike the row over factcheckUK, this clearly states it is a Conservative website – although it is branded in Labour party colours.
The Tories have also been buying up search results to try and make labourmanifesto.co.uk the top result when you search “labour”. It is appearing on some Google returns".
So the big Tory policy is to weaponise Google to spread fake news about the Labour manifesto......utterly shameless!
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How is it fake if it's clearly identified as a conservative site?
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Don't get dragged down the fake news road you are trying to condemn. We can all do it. How about "Gutter Press as Corbyn hardliner accuses legitimate website of being fake" equally absurd but as truthful as you have just been. Don't on both sides let hatred and blanket loyalties get in the way of judgement
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Just watched the Gove interview, extremely worrying, should be compulsory viewing.
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LDR.
It's marginal gains. If just 1 in 50 people who see it don't notice the fainter writing saying it's a Conservative Party website, then that's job done.
And you cannot look at this in isolation. It's part of a pattern of deliberate deception. In the last few weeks they have.
1) Published a faked BBC website, purporting to show the BBC saying they are increasing school spending by twice as much as they actually are.
2) Doctored a video of Keir Starmer being interviewed about Labour's Brexit plans to make it look as though he was unable to answer simple questions, when in fact he'd answered them fluently and in detail.
3) Changed their Twitter feed front page to make it look as though they were an independent fact checker during the Leaders Debate.
4) Now this with the Labour manifesto.
And this is all being masterminded by the lying bas**rd who micro-targetted people who had been specifically profiled as being gullible to lies in the 2016 Ref campaign, and sent a tsunami of lies [1] to their Facebook feeds in the last few days to get them fired up to go and vote Leave.
Allow this to become the new standard and we're f**ked. Utterly f**ked. Because it's about denying the idea of objective truth in politics. It's then not a question of who has the best policies. It's who is the best at spreading disinformation. That is a terrifying prospect because it's how democracies fall apart.
[1] And I MEAN a tsunami. Cummings is on record as saying they sent 1.5billion videos to 2-3million Facebook accounts in the last week of the campaign. Videos pushing the £350m claim (lie), that 80million Turks were about to join the EU and get free movement to the UK (lie) that the EU is responsible for culling polar bears (lie) and more.
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Just watched the Gove interview, extremely worrying, should be compulsory viewing.
Watch it again. As he gets more and more bogged down in defending the indefensible, he does this stress thing that I've seen him do before. He repeatedly rocks up on his toes to increase his height. Over and over and over again. It's bizarre behaviour and it's body language that screams out that he is uncomfortable.
Just go and watch it. Starts from about 2:50 in.
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LDR.
It's marginal gains. If just 1 in 50 people who see it don't notice the fainter writing saying it's a Conservative Party website, then that's job done.
And you cannot look at this in isolation. It's part of a pattern of deliberate deception. In the last few weeks they have.
1) Published a faked BBC website, purporting to show the BBC saying they are increasing school spending by twice as much as they actually are.
2) Doctored a video of Keir Starmer being interviewed about Labour's Brexit plans to make it look as though he was unable to answer simple questions, when in fact he'd answered them fluently and in detail.
3) Changed their Twitter feed front page to make it look as though they were an independent fact checker during the Leaders Debate.
4) Now this with the Labour manifesto.
And this is all being masterminded by the lying bas**rd who micro-targetted people who had been specifically profiled as being gullible to lies in the 2016 Ref campaign, and sent a tsunami of lies [1] to their Facebook feeds in the last few days to get them fired up to go and vote Leave.
Allow this to become the new standard and we're f**ked. Utterly f**ked. Because it's about denying the idea of objective truth in politics. It's then not a question of who has the best policies. It's who is the best at spreading disinformation. That is a terrifying prospect because it's how democracies fall apart.
[1] And I MEAN a tsunami. Cummings is on record as saying they sent 1.5billion videos to 2-3million Facebook accounts in the last week of the campaign. Videos pushing the £350m claim (lie), that 80million Turks were about to join the EU and get free movement to the UK (lie) that the EU is responsible for culling polar bears (lie) and more.
Appreciated, doesn't make it fake though, disingenuous maybe but not fake. No different to pamphlets coming through the door just a different medium.
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LDR.
No. Every one of those examples are intended to deceive. In the case of this most recent one, in two ways - firstly by re-directing people who are genuinely searching for Labour's Manifesto, to a site that gives the Tory party's take on Labour's Manifesto. Secondly, it's the marginal gains thing. Some people will not notice the (deliberately less prominent) text that says it is a Tory party website. Some people will be deceived by this. Not many perhaps, but that's how marginal gains works - the accumulation of lots of micro-advantages. if this gets some people deceived, it has done its job.
Last thing is. If this wasn't going to give you a benefit, why on earth do it?
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Again I'm not debating the morality of it, just saying it's not fake because you don't agree with it
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Ldr,
The clue is in the name of the site.
Why would you call it LabourManifesto.co.uk, unless you were intending to intercept traffic looking for the real site on Google?
It is impersonation to exploit the search engine, and as such it is fake, and as our legal friends would say "apt to mislead". No-one entering that search is looking for a Tory site, are they?
It points up another glaring inadequacy in the electoral rules, where new exploits allow gaming the system to deceive voters. People should not need to double check on the accuracy of online material because a vested interest is seeking to cheat.
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Again it doesn't make it fake
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It clearly states a conservative site, therefore not fake Albie. Disingenuous but not fake
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It clearly states a conservative site, therefore not fake Albie. Disingenuous but not fake
What about the other 3 examples I gave?
On its own, I'd have laughed this one off. But it doesn't exist on its own. It's clearly part of a systematic strategy to lie and deceive in a way we have never seen in UK politics. Don't you find that extremely worrying?
EDIT.
Correction. We've never seen it in a General Election. We did see a systematic strategy of lying and deceiving voters by Cummings in the 2016 Ref campaign.
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This is part of a wider "Digital Shitposting" strategy.
Basically, any stunt which allows the Conservative party to divert from policy, and get everyone talking about belief, identity and tactics.
Erode people’s confidence to judge what is true and what is not, and the Tories think they can reduce this election to a single issue: get Brexit done.
In the avalanche of disinformation, the Tories believe this is the one line that can have an impact.
Everything else, campaign strategists will hope, can be reduced to noise and lies.
If you can obscure what is true and promote what is not, some votes can be won from those who will not look further. The more "viral" the message, the greater the reach.
It is a direct transfer from both Trump and the Leave campaign....disregard the truth and vote for identity.
Expect it to ramp up before Dec 12!
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I'd argue the website's main aim was to top the google search rankings. To try and stop some people finding the actual manifesto.
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Christ Al-f**king-mighty.
https://www.channel4.com/news/michael-gove-interview-on-truth-lies-and-brexit
What an unmitigated Kitson this excuse for a man is.
The bad news being that was not the worst interview by a Tory politician posted online today.
That prize surely has to go to Priti Patel claiming that the government was not responsible for government policies that have led to a massive rise in poverty levels for ordinary people:
https://twitter.com/BBCNWT/status/1197464428935045123
Although it is pushed hard by Liz Truss attacking Labour's house building announcements by not knowing how many of the 200000 starter homes the Tories had promised to build in their 2015 manifesto they had completed (spoiler alert - its 0)
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/liz-truss-flounders-shes-grilled-20929099
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I'd argue the website's main aim was to top the google search rankings. To try and stop some people finding the actual manifesto.
I'd 100% agree, doesn't make it fake though which is my point.
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It clearly states a conservative site, therefore not fake Albie. Disingenuous but not fake
I agree Ldr its clearly not fake. It is there on the interweb as a website so it is clearly real.
It is misleading, disingenuous, gives false information and is being judged by the twitterati as an underhand move to deceive the public but is certainly not fake.
Just a pretty standard Tory trick to mislead voters I would say.
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I suppose there's a large pot of money waiting to be distributed from the UKs missing billions, it's shame for 8.5 years nothing was done.
The UK is by far the world’s biggest enabler of corporate tax dodging, helping funnel hundreds of billions of dollars away from state coffers, according to an international investigation.
Of the top 10 countries allowing multinationals to avoid paying billions in tax on their profits, four are British overseas territories.
Chancellor Philip Hammond has pledged to crack down on multinationals like Google and Amazon that boost profits by shifting huge sums through low-tax jurisdictions.
But an index published today by the Tax Justice Network found that the UK has “single-handedly” done the most to break down the global corporate tax system which loses an estimated $500bn (£395bn) to avoidance.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-corporate-tax-avoidance-havens-justice-network-dodging-a8933661.html
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"'“End to austerity,” trumpets the Sun, heralding “a jumbo manifesto package of spending promises”. The Institute for Fiscal Studies finds just £2.9bn of new spending on public services; a minnow not a jumbo, as the Sun takes its readers for fools''
"The national insurance saving of £85 a year is an insult to those who have lost £12bn in benefits. A rise of 1.1% in spending as a proportion of GDP sounds big only because it rises from such a low''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/25/boris-johnson-tory-manifesto
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To the voters of Wokingham, do us all a favour and get rid of this Tory jerk.
As a Brexiter, John Redwood is all for Britain, but when it comes to his well paid job
as financial advisor,
he advises clients NOT to invest in the U.K.
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Revealed: Tory candidates issued with attack manuals on how to smear rivals
Party’s dossier contains dubious and outdated claims about Lib Dems and Labour
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/28/revealed-tory-candidates-issued-with-attack-manuals-on-how-to-smear-rivals
so they're all as bad as each other, really?
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S & W Yorkshire for Europe
🕷️
🇪🇺
#MakeItStop@SWYforEurope
In Yorkshire it's hard to understand why anyone would vote Tory. Are our memories so short? We're living through the results of their callous policies. Austerity was just an excuse to tear apart our public sector. Enough!
#MakeItStop
#NeverTrustATory
#GetTheToriesOut
#GE2019
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There are those waiting for the election praying for a tory win cos they hate labour?
Go Austerity rah rah, go spiteful Tories rah rah, go economic pygmies :)
"General election: Johnson appeals to Labour leavers with plan for more state aid for jobs after Brexit''
"But the small print of the Conservative announcement suggests that Johnson is planning relatively modest changes to the current regime, rather than a wholesale shift towards 1970s socialism, and it has also been pointed out that any attempt to diverge very far from current EU-style rules would make negotiating a UK-EU free trade deal much harder''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/29/general-election-tories-threaten-channel-4-after-climate-debate-ice-stunt-live-news
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Claim
Johnson said there would be “no tariffs and no checks” on goods moving from Northern Ireland to the rest of the UK after Brexit.
Reality
The prime minister’s claim contradicts his Brexit secretary, Stephen Barclay, who told a Lords committee that businesses in the province would need to complete “exit summary declarations”.
While this could mean no physical border checks involved in the arrangements, the new paperwork that must accompany transiting goods is seen by critics as equivalent to erecting a trade barrier between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
Barclay had also previously said there would be a need for “minimal, targeted interventions” – in other words, checks.
Either he doesn't know or he's lying.
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This is where a decade of Tory Austerity has taken us. More billionaires than ever, and this.
If you watch this and still vote Tory...
https://mobile.twitter.com/C4Dispatches/status/1200927491134820353
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Here we go.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WhoTargetsMe/status/1201256574486024197
Cummings' playbook being put into effect.
Operation Pump Lies into Vulnerable Folks' Facebook Feed is up and running.
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Including this one.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WhoTargetsMe/status/1201262705971204096
48 hours after the London Bridge attack and this is what that amoral Kitson puts out across Facebook.
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Here we go.
https://mobile.twitter.com/WhoTargetsMe/status/1201256574486024197
Cummings' playbook being put into effect.
Operation Pump Lies into Vulnerable Folks' Facebook Feed is up and running.
Google have pulled 8 (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tory-general-election-advert-ban-google-fake-news-manifesto-labour-a9223846.html)
Time for Facebook to do the same with any that break violations.
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2016
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/775223582343454720
Today
https://politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/conservative-party/news/108298/eu-citizens-will-need-us-style-visa
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Further evidence of what voting for or supporting Tories means in real terms to real people
"At least 135,000 children in Britain to be homeless at Christmas
Housing charity Shelter estimates that 183 children lose their homes every day''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/03/at-least-135000-children-in-britain-will-be-homeless-at-christmas
What a shame but at least we'll be in control :)
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In my lifetime, there has been no party that has matched this Tory party in its lack of humility and humanity. The damage they have already done is a foretaste of what they will go on to do.
To support them, to vote for them, is to be complicit in their evil.
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Best For Britain@BestForBritain
The Conservatives keep providing supposedly detailed figures for the supposed ‘cost of Corbyn’.
It’s funny they still haven’t provided any economic forecasts whatsoever for the cost of Brexit.
I wonder why
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Keep plugging away on labour to the few on here lads, while in the real world they are being taken to the cleaners and have no consistent policy with four different ideas on the four day week by four different Labour MP's on the radio. And don't forget, if you work in the NHS you can't have a four day week, it will cost two much.
I notice Starmer and his cronies have been locked away in the last few weeks, never to be seen until they can start spouting again after the election. Locked away so as not to upset Labour voters such as in Doncaster, but will be rolled out after the election, and again take the voters in the midlands and north for the fools they think they are.
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You really should try to get out more Selby :)
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Keep plugging away on labour to the few on here lads, while in the real world they are being taken to the cleaners and have no consistent policy with four different ideas on the four day week by four different Labour MP's on the radio. And don't forget, if you work in the NHS you can't have a four day week, it will cost two much.
I notice Starmer and his cronies have been locked away in the last few weeks, never to be seen until they can start spouting again after the election. Locked away so as not to upset Labour voters such as in Doncaster, but will be rolled out after the election, and again take the voters in the midlands and north for the fools they think they are.
When you find Rees-Mogg and the red faced crackpot, can’t remember his name, let us know 😀
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The Labour Party are really taking the piss now, sending Lavery ( you know him, the miners friend who scammed the union for £165,000) a union branch with ten members at the time, and who on Question time denied emphatically the Labour party would not have a second referendum, He can lie through his backside that fella.
And while we are talking about searching for missing persons, where are poor old Emily Thornberry and Diane Abbott those two bastions of the labour party here in the midlands and the north( have they ever been north of Reading?).
Do the Labour Party realise that they can turn a bottle of milk sour at last?
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Filo, I would think that Rees- Mogg will be looking after his very successful business's, Lavery will be out promising the earth and looking forward to scamming off the top, and poor old Diane and Emily could be waiting for the help to come in to wipe their arse.
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Whatever you could say about labour pales to insignificance when compared to the biggest liar second only to Trump being the leader of Tories and their insane hatred of working people why else is there Austerity?
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Yeah, Selby. I feel you bro. Jacob Rees-Mogg looking after his very successful businesses.
Jacob-rees Mogg looking after the very successful businesses he funds that sell abortion drugs to young Indonesian women when he's religiously anti-abortion.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-abortion-pills-abortion-rape-conservative-party-conference-tory-leadership-leader-a7976386.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jacob-rees-mogg-abortion-pills-abortion-rape-conservative-party-conference-tory-leadership-leader-a7976386.html)
Jacob-Rees mogg that stands to earn millions in share-holding revenue on the back of brexit.
And those pesky Labour politicians out there trying to implement social policies. tsh.
Man of the people.
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The only thing most Labour politicians are bothered about is themselves and their expense sheet.
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Before you mock children for believing in Santa Clause,
remember there are millions of adults who still believe in the Tories.
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Andy McDonald MP another car crash for labour on Daily politics show on TV. it just goes on and on,really showing their edginess and being put to the sword in most programmes.
Fighting for their lives and losing, now a potential link to Russian interference on the documents leaked the on the NHS, it does not look good at all for them.
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Let's be honest all this is is mud slinging. No one who comes on any political threads on a forum will be using it to decide who to vote for. They already know.
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The only thing most Labour politicians are bothered about is themselves and their expense sheet.
Is there any wonder the Chinese laugh at us for having a democratic system?
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That's true Donny but it's still healthy debate..TBH whichever way you vote at least everybody on here has a healthy interest on the subject,i just wish more would.On the whole I think it's been decent on here for that.People have different opinions but it hasn't been abusive..
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Andy McDonald MP another car crash for labour on Daily politics show on TV. it just goes on and on,really showing their edginess and being put to the sword in most programmes.
Fighting for their lives and losing, now a potential link to Russian interference on the documents leaked the on the NHS, it does not look good at all for them.
Almost every politician who appears on Daily Politics is given a hiding....or do you only comment when Labour MP’s appear?
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The only thing most Labour politicians are bothered about is themselves and their expense sheet.
Selby, as a matter of interest, what is it about the Tories that makes you feel that they’re the best option for the country?
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I can not wait to start shopping around for health insurance. Said no one ever
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Farage said on the bbc breakfast programme that people should never trust a career politician from any party as they will make promises that they won’t keep.
Now where did I see “they are all the same” written.
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Yes but that's markedly different from what Farage has done all his life. Which is to make promises he has no intention of keeping.
You see the difference?
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Yes I see the difference that you are implying.
However it COULD apply to lots of others too.
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Go on.
Give me some examples from before the last few years of politicians making promises in manifestos that they had no intention of keeping.
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But how could I do that.
How could I know what they were thinking when they made their promises.
No one could know.
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Go on.
Give me some examples from before the last few years of politicians making promises in manifestos that they had no intention of keeping.
Labour 2017 - we will honour the referendum result and deliver Brexit?
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Go on.
Give me some examples from before the last few years of politicians making promises in manifestos that they had no intention of keeping.
Labour 2017 - we will honour the referendum result and deliver Brexit?
I suppose they may have thought that it was an honest process, if one wants honesty in politics then the vote doesn't stack up, of course one could just use the result because it supports what they want regardless of how it was manufactured.
Is that you bfyp?
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And they would have if May had been prepared to consider a deal that they could have signed up to.
What you are saying, is that because they didn't sign up to a deal which was FAR harder and more destructive of economic strength, workers' rights and environmental regulations than ANYTHING discussed in 2016, they are liars.
I'll guarantee you Corbyn would have signed up to A Brexit in 2017, if a sensible soft Brexit had been available. He's wanted Brexit all his life and from a pragmatic point of view, Brexit is a toxic issue for Corbyn,as we've seen this year.
The fact that he was utterly unable to sign up to the Brexit May agreed does not mean he was lying in 2017.
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Hound. Then Farage is talking b*llocks again, and I'm surprised at you for repeating it.
For the record, a recent academic study (more objective facts SS - you might want to turn off now) has found that British politicians are the best in the world at keeping their manifesto promises.
See the first and second tweets in this thread.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1201764187501936640
Frankly, it does my f**king head in when people just tut-tut and sagely say, "Oh they just say anything to get elected". We have had, by international standards, one of THE best functioning and honest Parliament's in the world. It IS slipping now. If it does slip, the ones who will be to blame are those (and yes, they are predominantly old) who think they are being wise when they parrot that bullshit about all politicians being liars who are in it for themselves.
When you hear POLITICIANS saying that, like that bas**rd Farage has done, ask yourself what they have to gain by deceiving you.
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Corbyn's just a protester. He'll even protest against what he believes in to get in power.
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OK....this is a bit of a shocker, but a pattern is emerging now;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-climate-change-debate-tory-lewes-nancy-bikson-maria-caulfield-a9232051.html
So the best way to address an existential threat like climate change, the most important question across all societies going forward, is to run away.
The "climb on the bins and scramble over the fence" policy seems not to have made it into the Tory manifesto...I wonder why not?
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Corbyn's just a protester. He'll even protest against what he believes in to get in power.
Aye, protesting against the Bedroom Tax, Closure of Sure Start Children’s Centres, the introduction of Universal Credit...what a shithouse eh?
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So.
Remember the "40 new hospitals" line that Johnson has repeatedly lied about?
Remember how it was actually SIX new hospitals, with the other 34 being Trusts who were getting a bit of small change to start thinking about planning to maybe work up a bid for more funding in the distant future?
You remember?
You remember how Johnson lied to you about that? Repeatedly.
Turns out to look like the actual number of new hospitals is ZERO. The six "new" ones are actually redevelopments of existing ones.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50579557
Remember what Goebbels said?
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.
Every one of you who just shrug your shoulders at lying on this scale, who say "they're all at it" when no-one in living memory has lied in British politics like this.
You are responsible if a liar like this ends up running the country. Just own that fact.
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If the UK crashes out of the EU it will be how many of the hospitals there are now can we do without.
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Big splash today!
Tories Will Cut Your Taxes If Elected.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50666262
It works out at 23p per day.
They do say that every party runs out of ideas of what the hell to do after a decade in Govt...
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Corbyn's just a protester. He'll even protest against what he believes in to get in power.
Aye, protesting against the Bedroom Tax, Closure of Sure Start Children’s Centres, the introduction of Universal Credit...what a shithouse eh?
We can all be brilliant at protesting about that, along with everything that's unpopular, but it doesn't make us worthy Prime Ministers.
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Corbyn's just a protester. He'll even protest against what he believes in to get in power.
Aye, protesting against the Bedroom Tax, Closure of Sure Start Children’s Centres, the introduction of Universal Credit...what a shithouse eh?
We can all be brilliant at protesting about that, along with everything that's unpopular, but it doesn't make us worthy Prime Ministers.
So openly lying and cheating does in your book BB?
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No, it doesn't. Does it you?
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No, it doesn't. Does it you?
Of course not, which is why I find it most odd that some people continue to defend Johnson and put aside his continuous outright lies when thinking about our next Prime Minister.
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Corbyn isn't immune to the odd lie either, and when you consider his alleged support of the IRA and his soft spot for extremists, not to mention the suggestion of anti-semitism, it's not so odd why some people continue to support Boris as the better of two evils.
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Corbyn isn't immune to the odd lie either, and when you consider his alleged support of the IRA and his soft spot for extremists, not to mention the suggestion of anti-semitism, it's not so odd why some people continue to support Boris as the better of two evils.
Odd lie as opposed to outright and continuous lies? Alleged and Suggested, as opposed to proven? It's clear to see how some people are easily manipulated.
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Some of Corbyn's odd lies are outright and continuous, like his insistence that no one earning less than £80k will be taxed more.
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Still going on about Corbyn being anti-Semitic BB?
Who has ever come up with a shred of evidence about that?
Here is is almost breaking into tears, remembering his mother's role in the Battle of Cable Street, against Oswald Moseley's fascists who were trying to attack Jews.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D1Qj-wtH5CBc&ved=2ahUKEwiyuu39sp7mAhW1oXEKHQ93A3QQwqsBMAB6BAgGEAQ&usg=AOvVaw2lFGsQJ7WQAd22iNC5Fkca
By the way, the Daily Mail supported Moseley. Some racists never change their spots.
The whole attempt to paint Corbyn as anti-Semitic is the biggest Establishment stitch up of an Election since the Zinoviev Letter.
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Read my post BST and get back to me with an apology.
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JOHNSON DICTIONARY latest:
Working class men = “drunk, criminal, feckless”
Kids of single mothers = “ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive, illegitimate”
Muslim women = “like letterboxes”
Black people = “piccaninnies"
Gay men = “tank-topped bum boys"
Great British public = can’t spell
But this guy gets off with a free pass because Corbyn "may" be anti-semitic.
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I read it BB.
You're still pushing the line linking Corbyn with anti-Semitism.
If you clearly and unequivocally say that YOU don't believe it, I'll happily apologise.
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Big splash today!
Tories Will Cut Your Taxes If Elected.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50666262
It works out at 23p per day.
They do say that every party runs out of ideas of what the hell to do after a decade in Govt...
The headline of a tax cut is utterly pointless, the actual alignment of the rates etc is 100% correct but a tax cut of this size is pointless. I don't agree with tax rises, but I don't see the point in a a cut of this size, it adds nothing.
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I read it BB.
You're still pushing the line linking Corbyn with anti-Semitism.
If you clearly and unequivocally say that YOU don't believe it, I'll happily apologise.
I'm not pushing the line linking Corbyn with anti-semitism. I'm pointing out that many voters are. Personally, I take his word for it that he is not anti-Semitic.
It's not only Corbyn's alleged anti-Semitism that puts people off voting for him, though. There is also his much-publicised support of the IRA and his soft spot for extremists that put some voters off him.
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The lying from the Tories is just utterly out of control. And no-one seems to give a f**k.
Sajid Javid this time.
https://twitter.com/BBCRealityCheck/status/1202565829168128000?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
And before anyone starts, yes, homelessness DID increase under Labour from 1997 to the early 2000s. That was a reflection of the extreme caution of Tony Blair, who insisted that Labour from 97-2001 stick to the Tories' previous spending plans. That was a disaster. After 2001, Gordon Brown insisted that we spend more on public services and social issues. And look what you can do when you do that.
These lying bas**rds have been happy to see homelessness rise for a decade and they've done precisely nothing to combat it. And when they are picked up on it, they just lie. And no-one seems to care anymore.
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Of course, that's the same Sajid Javid who was working for Deutsche Bank in the decade up to the Great Financial Crash, then left and walked straight into Government. And is now the Chancellor of the f**king Exchequer!
And folk don't trust Labour...
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Of course, that's the same Sajid Javid who was working for Deutsche Bank in the decade up to the Great Financial Crash, then left and walked straight into Government. And is now the Chancellor of the f**king Exchequer!
And folk don't trust Labour...
Even after all these weeks of debate, I still don’t understand how anyone with any ounce of empathy for others could vote Tory?
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Corbyn's just a protester. He'll even protest against what he believes in to get in power.
Aye, protesting against the Bedroom Tax, Closure of Sure Start Children’s Centres, the introduction of Universal Credit...what a shithouse eh?
We can all be brilliant at protesting about that, along with everything that's unpopular, but it doesn't make us worthy Prime Ministers.
It makes you a better PM than one who supports those policies BB!
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Corbyn's just a protester. He'll even protest against what he believes in to get in power.
Aye, protesting against the Bedroom Tax, Closure of Sure Start Children’s Centres, the introduction of Universal Credit...what a shithouse eh?
We can all be brilliant at protesting about that, along with everything that's unpopular, but it doesn't make us worthy Prime Ministers.
It makes you a better PM than one who supports those policies BB!
Not until you turn your promises into actions and see them work correctly it doesn't.
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Corbyn's just a protester. He'll even protest against what he believes in to get in power.
Aye, protesting against the Bedroom Tax, Closure of Sure Start Children’s Centres, the introduction of Universal Credit...what a shithouse eh?
We can all be brilliant at protesting about that, along with everything that's unpopular, but it doesn't make us worthy Prime Ministers.
It makes you a better PM than one who supports those policies BB!
Not until you turn your promises into actions and see them work correctly it doesn't.
So the answer is to continue to vote for a PM who’s party (and he supported) that position or give someone else a chance to make things better?
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If you're a Tory yes!
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If you're a Tory yes!
So, nothing has to change? We just continue and accept those living in poverty as collateral damage?
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Of course, things need to change. The argument is how to change it.
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Of course, things need to change. The argument is how to change it.
So why would you vote for the party that put us in this situation in the first place?
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I wouldn't unless I thought it was a better option than the other parties involved.
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And do you think the Tories offer the best option of helping those suffering from their austerity policy??
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As I understand it both parties have promised to end austerity, so it depends on who you trust more in. The problem is we'll never know who would deliver the best results on poverty because only one of them will have the chance to prove it.
I don't trust either of them particularly, but I trust Corbyn less.
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The lying from the Tories is just utterly out of control. And no-one seems to give a f**k.
Sajid Javid this time.
https://twitter.com/BBCRealityCheck/status/1202565829168128000?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
And before anyone starts, yes, homelessness DID increase under Labour from 1997 to the early 2000s. That was a reflection of the extreme caution of Tony Blair, who insisted that Labour from 97-2001 stick to the Tories' previous spending plans. That was a disaster. After 2001, Gordon Brown insisted that we spend more on public services and social issues. And look what you can do when you do that.
These lying bas**rds have been happy to see homelessness rise for a decade and they've done precisely nothing to combat it. And when they are picked up on it, they just lie. And no-one seems to care anymore.
OK calm down everyone it wasn't a lie, Javid just 'misrembered' a fact. In at least 3 different interviews.
As I pointed out the other day, Diane Abbott forgot some figures and was crucified for it.
The actual Prime Minister and actual Chancellor of the Exchequer (accurate figures being quite important in his job) 'misremember' things, where's the outrage?
https://twitter.com/FactCheck/status/1202623939568111616
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Johnson doesn't know his own tax policies - or even what is in his own manifesto.
Asked by the BBC why the Tory manifesto shows more money coming in from tax rises than from tax cuts Johnson denied what he manifesto actually shows.
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1202606301471236098
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He's in good company then because neither does Corbyn, who claimed only the richest 5% of taxpayers, those earning about £80,000 a year or more, would face tax rises.
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The lying from the Tories is just utterly out of control. And no-one seems to give a f**k.
Sajid Javid this time.
https://twitter.com/BBCRealityCheck/status/1202565829168128000?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
And before anyone starts, yes, homelessness DID increase under Labour from 1997 to the early 2000s. That was a reflection of the extreme caution of Tony Blair, who insisted that Labour from 97-2001 stick to the Tories' previous spending plans. That was a disaster. After 2001, Gordon Brown insisted that we spend more on public services and social issues. And look what you can do when you do that.
These lying bas**rds have been happy to see homelessness rise for a decade and they've done precisely nothing to combat it. And when they are picked up on it, they just lie. And no-one seems to care anymore.
The Tory party has put out a press release on this today. No apologies for Javid lying.
They say (get this). The numbers of homeless have more than halved since the peak.
Go and look at the graph in that tweet up above. Look at when the fall happened. And what has happened while they've been in power since 2010.
They are f**king laughing at you. Laughing at you.
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JOHNSON DICTIONARY latest:
Working class men = “drunk, criminal, feckless”
Kids of single mothers = “ill-raised, ignorant, aggressive, illegitimate”
Muslim women = “like letterboxes”
Black people = “piccaninnies"
Gay men = “tank-topped bum boys"
Great British public = can’t spell
But this guy gets off with a free pass because Corbyn "may" be anti-semitic.
Nobody who supports Tories and bashes Corbyn ever seems to want to comment on this.
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As I understand it both parties have promised to end austerity, so it depends on who you trust more in. The problem is we'll never know who would deliver the best results on poverty because only one of them will have the chance to prove it.
I don't trust either of them particularly, but I trust Corbyn less.
In your opinion, the party most likely to help those suffering due to austerity is the party that put them in that situation? Interesting*
*For ‘interesting’ read ‘completely insane’
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Well if that's the case it looks like there are more insane people in the country that sane ones.
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Well if that's the case it looks like there are more insane people in the country that sane ones.
I wouldn’t dispute that
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Oh my god” cry the crowd
'those with learning difficulties should be paid less as they ‘Don’t understand money’
Tory candidate at marginal Hastings hustings
😱
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RD Hale
🌹
#VoteLabour@SkyeCity_
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All I'm saying is if you live in a northern heartland & you vote for the Tories or the Thatcherite Brexit Party, you betray every mining community destroyed by Thatcherism in the 1980s.
You betray your own roots.
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Theres more to the north than mining, I have no mining heritage trace family back in doncaster to the 1700s so utter b*llocks to that
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Theres more to the north than mining, I have no mining heritage trace family back in doncaster to the 1700s so utter b*llocks to that
Indeed LDR, there IS more to the North than Mining. Why in Doncaster alone we have International Harvester, ICI, Ford, Pegglers, Burton Tailoring, Steel Chords, Glass Bulbs, Rockware Glass, The Plant Works.... Oh, wait....