Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: DonnyOsmond on October 28, 2019, 06:24:20 pm
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Looks like there's an election in December even if this vote doesn't get through tonight so let's see how we're looking at the moment.
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There may not be given labour policy of actively pushing for an election then doing everything they can to avoid one....
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not quite true, labor will support an election with safeguards against no-deal, do you want no-deal bfyp?
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I think this will pass even without labour, if labour are to have any chance they need rid of corbyn and pick a better brexit strategy, so far all there doing is making boris a brexit martyr
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I think this will pass even without labour, if labour are to have any chance they need rid of corbyn and pick a better brexit strategy, so far all there doing is making boris a brexit martyr
It's the only Brexit strategy that has any chance of "uniting the country".
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Even if your right he is not going to get a chance to do it without a election, he has spent 2 years demanding a election now he is blocking it he is seen as blocking brexit 2, even if you think it’s the way to go it’s not working,his problem is he agrees to a election he is out of a job!
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not quite true, labor will support an election with safeguards against no-deal, do you want no-deal bfyp?
An election in December does that no? Unless they lose......
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Sydney there not going to get there own way on everything, I’m sure you know unless something dramatically changes labour will not win, there has been a chance of no deal for years in fact there is far less chance now than when may was in charge, labour wanted a election then with no safe guards because they thought they would win, so why did they not want safeguards then?
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Even the sh*tty Lib Dems and SNP are wanting a GE now.
The Labour Party are behaving appallingly at the moment. The voters won't forget this.
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Ah but will they remember Boris saying we would be leaving the EU on 31st October, no, if's no buts or he would die in a ditch? Or him standing outside Downing Street last month saying he didn't want an election, you don't want an election?
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There is no other option but a election thou is there? And it’s 2 years of Corbyn saying let’s have a election and sort this mess out, well now he can! He would be best off choosing leave or rip article 50 up that way he would have a fighting chance of every remainder voting for him
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I can believe people would vote for the party that's pissed hundreds of millions up a wall on 31st Oct advertisement and 50p's. :laugh:
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Boris actually got his Brexit deal passed, so why is he abandoning it. Perhaps the scrutiny and economic impact details need avoiding and he can only do it with a Tory majority who don't give a toss as long a they have Brexit.
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I can believe people would vote for the party that's pissed hundreds of millions up a wall on 31st Oct advertisement and 50p's. :laugh:
Wasted vote in Doncaster. Everybody who does vote torie normally needs to vote for the Brexit party and not split the vote in half. Otherwise useless Milliband will get in.
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I can believe people would vote for the party that's pissed hundreds of millions up a wall on 31st Oct advertisement and 50p's. :laugh:
Wasted vote in Doncaster. Everybody who does vote torie normally needs to vote for the Brexit party and not split the vote in half. Otherwise useless Milliband will get in.
Can you explain why you think he’s useless?
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Hopefully the whole UK is like how this poll is currently going.
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Hopefully the whole UK is like how this poll is currently going.
BP you wouldn't be pedaling that old Murdoch propaganda line would you?
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Even the sh*tty Lib Dems and SNP are wanting a GE now.
The Labour Party are behaving appallingly at the moment. The voters won't forget this.
Give them a generation (sometimes less) and they will have forgotten all about it
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Ah but will they remember Boris saying we would be leaving the EU on 31st October, no, if's no buts or he would die in a ditch? Or him standing outside Downing Street last month saying he didn't want an election, you don't want an election?
Wont matter too much as he could actully have kicked the Queen and her Corgis whilst lying to her and "they" would still have blamed it on some Remoaner conspiracy and STILL voted for Johnson
A generation on and most people will have forgotten how s***e this period had been
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There is no other option but a election thou is there? And it’s 2 years of Corbyn saying let’s have a election and sort this mess out, well now he can! He would be best off choosing leave or rip article 50 up that way he would have a fighting chance of every remainder voting for him
I actually think there IS an alternative
All MPs guarantee to let Johnsons deal go through unfettered - but with just a confirmatory vote added to it
So we would have a confiirmatory vote with 2 questions
a) Do you want to Leave using the Johnson deal OR
b) Do you want to remain
Then we all "suck it up" whatever the result and the whole s****y mess goes away
Tory MPs though will not ever offer that chance because they have fought like cats in a sack since the 75 Referendum which took us into the EEC with a massive (looking) 33 per cent majority - to get us out again
They cite the will of the people but disrespected that vote - and are trying for a GE because then they can take us out if they get that majority
If they put those 2 questions though we would as I say get a true picture of where we are now and if it came up Leave then I would say fair enough - and if it came up Remain I would think fair enough (and look forward to conversations on Telly or in the Pub that DID NOT mention f*****g B****t)
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Hopefully the whole UK is like how this poll is currently going.
Well it's not.
If labour backed honouring the referendum theyd get my vote and many others.
Turf Corbyn and Abbot it will be even better for them.
They've gone too far left. People want to here immigration is controlled. She comes across announcing it as though it's gonna be a free for all and a 100 million population in 10 years time
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It's on labor agrees to early poll
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Think he has done the right thing, has prob saved face just in time
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... early drubbing !
Still a hurdle or two before then not least will Johnson "come it" and reintroduce his WAB
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Awesome to see Green doing better than Brexit Party on here.
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Itll be forgotten about in time. But god knows why he says yes today bit not yesterday....
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GAME OVER imo
Caved in
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Itll be forgotten about in time. But god knows why he says yes today bit not yesterday....
Something to do with no deal Brexit being off the table..
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Boris actually got his Brexit deal passed, so why is he abandoning it. Perhaps the scrutiny and economic impact details need avoiding and he can only do it with a Tory majority who don't give a toss as long a they have Brexit.
It wasn't passed. It was just voted through the Second Reading.
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ignoring Cor-bins dandruff the question is will it snow in December?
Will it snow this December?
For many of us, snow is synonymous with Christmas. ... We are more likely to see snow between January and March than in December with snow or sleet falling an average 3.9 days in December, compared to 5.3 days in January, 5.6 days in February and 4.2 days in March.
i never realised it was more likely to snow in March than December. We all know a low turn out "usually " helps the Tories.
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Not sure I get your drift.
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Johnson might pull the GE after amendments kick in.
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No might about it
He has said that they WILL pull the Bill if 16/17 year old amendment is passed because to implement it would mean a probable delay of 9 months to a year
Similarly giving the resident EU citizens the vote would do the same
and he would DEFFO pull it if someone got through an amendment pinning a Second Ref to it
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Has anyone tabled PR?
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People will always vote labour around here.
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Why in God's name would anyone vote Green in this election?
If the Green's get 8-10% of the vote,they'll get 1 seat and Johnson will get a huge majority.
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Principles are grand, but we need a bit of pragmatism.
I want my kids to learn from their mistakes, but I still grab them by the collar if they start walking off the pavement in front of a car
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Keith79, I doubt Yvette Cooper and Ed Milliband will be re-elected.
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Keith79, I doubt Yvette Cooper and Ed Milliband will be re-elected.
I'll have a tenner bet to our favourite charities that you're wrong on both of them.
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Why in God's name would anyone vote Green in this election?
If the Green's get 8-10% of the vote,they'll get 1 seat and Johnson will get a huge majority.
because they probably don’t like Corbyn as much as boris?
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Why in God's name would anyone vote Green in this election?
If the Green's get 8-10% of the vote,they'll get 1 seat and Johnson will get a huge majority.
because they probably don’t like Corbyn as much as boris?
Anyone who votes Greens won't be right wing. :laugh:
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Johnson is now restoring the whip to some of those he kicked out.
I wonder why?
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Why in God's name would anyone vote Green in this election?
If the Green's get 8-10% of the vote,they'll get 1 seat and Johnson will get a huge majority.
because they probably don’t like Corbyn as much as boris?
I'd be amazed if the majority of people voting Green would prefer Johnson to Corbyn.
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Sorry I meant like either of them not boris more
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Now to find someone worth voting for. Wish us luck!
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Why in God's name would anyone vote Green in this election?
If the Green's get 8-10% of the vote,they'll get 1 seat and Johnson will get a huge majority.
because they probably don’t like Corbyn as much as boris?
This is the Corbyn who praised Extinction Rebellion and adopted a Green New Deal and the Johnson who called ER 'unco-operative crusties, littering London'. Hope all your predictions are as insightful as that...
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It was not a prediction! I know as you will as well labour voters that won’t vote for Corbyn
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I think it's almost impossible to predict the result of said election given how volatile the polls have been since early Feb when Theresa May's Premiership began to fart out of existence.
But (and it's a big but), if Farage's Brexit Party campaigns on a platform of WTO/No Deal against Boris' deal, I'm making my prediction as follows:
Labour: 292
Conservatives: 257
SNP: 49
Lib Dems: 28
Sinn Fein: 9
DUP: 8
Plaid Cymru: 3
Green: 1
Other: 3 (Including new speaker)
We'll see how far off the mark I am on Friday 13th...
:coat:
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Substantially lee, not in a million years will labour get close to that many seats.
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Can’t see it mr Croft, may was woeful in her election campaign, this time the polls have tories well ahead and when it comes to it Tory voters will not vote Farage if it looks like Corbyn will get in, my prediction if boris doesn’t say anything ridiculous in his campaign is a decent Tory majority
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I think don valley may well be an interesting seat. Flint doesnt have a huge majority and is fairly unpopular. Locally of course labour will walk the others.
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Can’t see it mr Croft, may was woeful in her election campaign, this time the polls have tories well ahead and when it comes to it Tory voters will not vote Farage if it looks like Corbyn will get in, my prediction if boris doesn’t say anything ridiculous in his campaign is a decent Tory majority
So the tories are history then?
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Lol maybe Sydney, I think he only needs to keep a low profile, they have already got ahead with the queens speech which was pretty much a party broadcast,for labour to get anywhere near there going to have to come up with something very different and quick
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All the major bookies have tories winning a majority as the favourite at around evens, slightly ahead of no overall majority at 11/10 the average of a labour win with a majority averaging at around 18/1
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I think this will pass even without labour, if labour are to have any chance they need rid of corbyn and pick a better brexit strategy, so far all there doing is making boris a brexit martyr
For once we agree.
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https://tactical.vote/all (https://tactical.vote/all)
For anyone who isn't just black inside x
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Tactical voting? Just call it vote labour.....
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Tactical voting? Just call it vote labour.....
Or Lib Dems, SNP, Green, etc. Depending on location.
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Tactical voting? Just call it vote labour.....
Well yeah. That's the hard reality for anyone who really doesn't want to enable a Johnson Govt.
In most seats, in most places, it is a fact that an anti-Johnson person voting for anyone other than Labour will make a Johnson Govt more likely.
This is by some way the most important GE since 1945. It is one which will define the nature of the country for decades.
You CANNOT allow yourself the cop out of a vote for a party with no chance of winning your seat. It needs the most hard-headed pragmatism.
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Meanwhile, Tory MPs showing their true colours at PMQ
Corbyn turns up wearing a green tie as a tribute to the Grenfell Towers victims (green is the adopted colour of Grenfell campaigners and today there has been a minute's silence in Parliament in memory of Grenfell.)
A whole bunch of Tory MPs make jokes and laugh about Corbyn's fashion sense.
They are simply beneath f**king contempt. Arrogant, disconnected, entitled, uncaring Kitsons.
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Tactical voting??? Already it sounds like Labour supporters are clutching at whispy straws while accepting they are incapable of winning a general election on their own support from the electorate.What does that tell you about the Labour party.???
I dont care what colour tie Corbyn wears the simple fact is that the majority of this country dont trust him to run anything never mind a country.Polls are often wrong but even the most committed of Labour supporters cant argue the fact that his party's support and his popularity with the people he needs to get elected is simply no there.
I believe Labour are going to get absolutely creamed in this election and Johnston will have a decent working majority at the end of it.And if that happens theres no point moaning about it on here.The Labour party will have only its self to blame for not having the minerals to change the leadership and some of the front bench while they still had chance to do it...
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You could argue the same for the Tories.. get rid of that clown they call the PM and they may get more support..
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Unlikely thou idm as for some reason he seems very popular
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I'm no Boris fan IDM but reality his whatever you think of him,his support in every poll since he came in has held up were as Corbyn's has retreated from a already low level.
I actually believe thats due to Brexit,people believe he has actually tried to sort it out and a lot are not happy with how Labour have fudged their position from day one..
Our cleaner is 68 years old and from the heart of Doncasters mining area,she has voted Labour all her life and her words to me today were that although she could never vote Tory there was no way she could vote for Labour as her mp had betrayed the vote and had betrayed her,so she's staying at home..That wont matter in her area as its a safe seat but i believe it will in the marginals..
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Your cleaner is still cleaning at 68 eh?
She's got a lot to thank the Tories for.
It's their disgusting Austerity policies that led to people like her being disenfranchised and having the opportunity to blame the EU thanks to the extremely clever right wing Tory lies before the referendum.
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Jumping to a few conclusions there Tommy..I know this is going to wee on your presumptuous bonfire a little bit but she does it for the social interaction and to keep herself and her mind busy for a couple of hours rather than sit at home alone everyday..Not because she needs too..But hey dont let that stop you from a good fairy tale eh
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Ask her why she voted to leave.
Then come back and truthfully tell us what she says.
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I don't need to ask her as I already know as we discussed it at the time..Her brother was robbed and beaten up badly to the point he died shortly after by a pair of Romanian guys so her reason was solely down to immigration..
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That is itself is a tragedy and a terrible crime.
It doesn’t mean that all immigrants are bad though. That doesn’t make it any easier for her, of course.
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Billy, don't come on here that much , your on.
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On tactical voting, the important point is whether the seat is within range. If you are in one of the target marginals, vote for the most likely challenger.
Here are the Labour target marginals;
http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/labour
There are lots of sites encouraging people to vote "tactically" for candidates who have no chance of winning.
Explained here:
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/10/beware-of-dodgy-tactical-voting-sites.html
Beware snake oil salesmen!
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My grandad was knocked down by a hit and run driver in Denaby. Broke his leg. He died 4 months later.
Never dawned on me to base my entire opinion of folk from Denaby in that example.
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On tactical voting, the important point is whether the seat is within range. If you are in one of the target marginals, vote for the most likely challenger.
Here are the Labour target marginals;
http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/labour
There are lots of sites encouraging people to vote "tactically" for candidates who have no chance of winning.
Explained here:
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/10/beware-of-dodgy-tactical-voting-sites.html
Beware snake oil salesmen!
Who'd have thought it? Tactical voting is a difficult one to call and there may be folk lifting folks shirts?
The opposition parties have had a year to form a Popular Front against Johnson-ism and they have spent more time sniping at each other instead. Now, it's looking like the only realistic way of preventing a Johnson majority is for their supporters to somehow do the impossible and figure out which anti-Johnson candidates are best placed, in a political environment in which there has been massive churn in support.
Good luck with that.
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Meanwhile, Tory MPs showing their true colours at PMQ
Corbyn turns up wearing a green tie as a tribute to the Grenfell Towers victims (green is the adopted colour of Grenfell campaigners and today there has been a minute's silence in Parliament in memory of Grenfell.)
A whole bunch of Tory MPs make jokes and laugh about Corbyn's fashion sense.
They are simply beneath f**king contempt. Arrogant, disconnected, entitled, uncaring Kitsons.
By the way. This was Johnson's attitude as London Mayor when he was questioned about cutting funding to the Fire Service just before Grenfell.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ItsLouisVI/status/1139524864266637313
You want a showman to lead you? Grand. Vote for Boris.
It comes with consequences.
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My grandad was knocked down by a hit and run driver in Denaby. Broke his leg. He died 4 months later.
Never dawned on me to base my entire opinion of folk from Denaby in that example.
she will see it rightly or wrongly that if they were not hear he would still be alive, I’m sure many people would feel the same way it’s not always possible to think with a clear mind when angry and grieving
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Considering Brexit is by far the biggest issue of the General Election, Who's track record do you trust?
https://youtu.be/mHZFICg6EIE
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It’s all lies bb none of them actually meant it
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It’s all lies bb none of them actually meant it
Lies and changing your mind are two different things. Like Boris was saying a couple months before the Brexit vote that he thinks we should stay in.
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Boris might have changed his mind.
That's not lying, that's changing his mind.
Those in that compilation said that leave means leave and there was no going back on the result of the vote.
That's not changing their minds, That is lying.
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Considering Brexit is by far the biggest issue of the General Election, Who's track record do you trust?
https://youtu.be/mHZFICg6EIE
54% of all voters say what parties plan to do on climate change will influence how they will vote
https://twitter.com/ClientEarth/status/1189454671246778368
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It’s all lies bb none of them actually meant it
Lies and changing your mind are two different things. Like Boris was saying a couple months before the Brexit vote that he thinks we should stay in.
Or that we would leave by 31 Oct.
Or whatever he said to the queen when proroguing parliament..
etc etc etc
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Don't forget folks...
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPC81HwJIKtItsm0Jl87Ve1N_8cEh9xDWghpZXjbdD1xNnQSP3&s)
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Considering Brexit is by far the biggest issue of the General Election, Who's track record do you trust?
https://youtu.be/mHZFICg6EIE
54% of all voters say what parties plan to do on climate change will influence how they will vote
https://twitter.com/ClientEarth/status/1189454671246778368
so Brexit if you want to exit the planet?
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It’s all lies bb none of them actually meant it
Lies and changing your mind are two different things. Like Boris was saying a couple months before the Brexit vote that he thinks we should stay in.
So the question is, are they liars, or just f*cking stupid? Either way, are any of them trustworthy?
No.
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Boris might have changed his mind.
That's not lying, that's changing his mind.
Those in that compilation said that leave means leave and there was no going back on the result of the vote.
That's not changing their minds, That is lying.
Johnson said that no British prime minister could agree a Brexit deal that had different customs arrangements for NI & the rest of the UK. As prime minister he agreed just this.
Johnson said that May's deal turned the UK into a vassal state and should be chucked. He then voted for it
Johnson said we would be leaving the EU on 31st October, 'come what may' 'no ifs no buts' or he would be dead in a ditch. We are not leaving the EU on 31st October and all available ditches will be empty on that day
Johnson said that he would lie down in front of the bulldozers to stop the expansion of Heathrow airport. He missed the vote on it
Changes his mind a lot after he has made commitments to the public on important issues this Johnson bloke.
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Johnson has been stopped from fulfilling his promises because of the liars in this compilation.
https://youtu.be/mHZFICg6EIE
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So how will the tactical voting go in Doncaster to ensure no more Milliband?
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My grandad was knocked down by a hit and run driver in Denaby. Broke his leg. He died 4 months later.
Never dawned on me to base my entire opinion of folk from Denaby in that example.
she will see it rightly or wrongly that if they were not hear he would still be alive, I’m sure many people would feel the same way it’s not always possible to think with a clear mind when angry and grieving
See, I could have thought, while grieving, that if everyone from the 20 acre estate in Denaby were not here, my grandad would have been knocked down.
But then I knew some grand folk from the 20 acre. And it would have been stupid to blame all of them for what one Kitson from there did.
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Someone on here a few weeks ago suggested that the only way that we could prevent Labour winning Doncaster would be for the Brexit Party to put a Candidate forward.
That would still require a massive switch in voters changing over to them.
In my case, in the referendum I voted to remain so I couldn’t vote for the Brexit Party and I guess that would apply to lots of people.
The way I see it is that if I vote a Labour I just increase their winning margin by one.
If I vote for some other party I just reduce the Labour Party win by one vote.
There is no way that Labour won’t win in Doncaster.
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So how will the tactical voting go in Doncaster to ensure no more Milliband?
Not gonna happen
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Someone on here a few weeks ago suggested that the only way that we could prevent Labour winning Doncaster would be for the Brexit Party to put a Candidate forward.
That would still require a massive switch in voters changing over to them.
In my case, in the referendum I voted to remain so I couldn’t vote for the Brexit Party and I guess that would apply to lots of people.
The way I see it is that if I vote a Labour I just increase their winning margin by one.
If I vote for some other party I just reduce the Labour Party win by one vote.
There is no way that Labour won’t win in Doncaster.
I agree Hound, but I think Milliband's majority will be greatly reduced. Especially if the weather is bad.
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Someone on here a few weeks ago suggested that the only way that we could prevent Labour winning Doncaster would be for the Brexit Party to put a Candidate forward.
That would still require a massive switch in voters changing over to them.
In my case, in the referendum I voted to remain so I couldn’t vote for the Brexit Party and I guess that would apply to lots of people.
The way I see it is that if I vote a Labour I just increase their winning margin by one.
If I vote for some other party I just reduce the Labour Party win by one vote.
There is no way that Labour won’t win in Doncaster.
I agree Hound, but I think Milliband's majority will be greatly reduced. Especially if the weather is bad.
......and also Rosie Winterton and Caroline Flint?
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Someone on here a few weeks ago suggested that the only way that we could prevent Labour winning Doncaster would be for the Brexit Party to put a Candidate forward.
That would still require a massive switch in voters changing over to them.
In my case, in the referendum I voted to remain so I couldn’t vote for the Brexit Party and I guess that would apply to lots of people.
The way I see it is that if I vote a Labour I just increase their winning margin by one.
If I vote for some other party I just reduce the Labour Party win by one vote.
There is no way that Labour won’t win in Doncaster.
I agree Hound, but I think Milliband's majority will be greatly reduced. Especially if the weather is bad.
......and also Rosie Winterton and Caroline Flint?
Seeing as Donny voted 69% to leave, Flint's majority ought to increase . Either way, she'll get in again.
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My grandad was knocked down by a hit and run driver in Denaby. Broke his leg. He died 4 months later.
Never dawned on me to base my entire opinion of folk from Denaby in that example.
she will see it rightly or wrongly that if they were not hear he would still be alive, I’m sure many people would feel the same way it’s not always possible to think with a clear mind when angry and grieving
See, I could have thought, while grieving, that if everyone from the 20 acre estate in Denaby were not here, my grandad would have been knocked down.
But then I knew some grand folk from the 20 acre. And it would have been stupid to blame all of them for what one Kitson from there did.
everyone is not the same thou are they!
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Someone on here a few weeks ago suggested that the only way that we could prevent Labour winning Doncaster would be for the Brexit Party to put a Candidate forward.
That would still require a massive switch in voters changing over to them.
In my case, in the referendum I voted to remain so I couldn’t vote for the Brexit Party and I guess that would apply to lots of people.
The way I see it is that if I vote a Labour I just increase their winning margin by one.
If I vote for some other party I just reduce the Labour Party win by one vote.
There is no way that Labour won’t win in Doncaster.
I agree Hound, but I think Milliband's majority will be greatly reduced. Especially if the weather is bad.
......and also Rosie Winterton and Caroline Flint?
Seeing as Donny voted 69% to leave, Flint's majority ought to increase . Either way, she'll get in again.
Which is backing up what I said mate.
I don’t foresee Labour ever not winning in Donny.
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Someone on here a few weeks ago suggested that the only way that we could prevent Labour winning Doncaster would be for the Brexit Party to put a Candidate forward.
That would still require a massive switch in voters changing over to them.
In my case, in the referendum I voted to remain so I couldn’t vote for the Brexit Party and I guess that would apply to lots of people.
The way I see it is that if I vote a Labour I just increase their winning margin by one.
If I vote for some other party I just reduce the Labour Party win by one vote.
There is no way that Labour won’t win in Doncaster.
I agree Hound, but I think Milliband's majority will be greatly reduced. Especially if the weather is bad.
......and also Rosie Winterton and Caroline Flint?
Seeing as Donny voted 69% to leave, Flint's majority ought to increase . Either way, she'll get in again.
She doesnt have a huge majority..Milliband does, the others not so much. Would take a big swing and highly unlikely but never know.
Worth noting this is not about brexit solely, it's for 5 years. Plenty of people will vote on far more than brexit.
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My grandad was knocked down by a hit and run driver in Denaby. Broke his leg. He died 4 months later.
Never dawned on me to base my entire opinion of folk from Denaby in that example.
she will see it rightly or wrongly that if they were not hear he would still be alive, I’m sure many people would feel the same way it’s not always possible to think with a clear mind when angry and grieving
See, I could have thought, while grieving, that if everyone from the 20 acre estate in Denaby were not here, my grandad would have been knocked down.
But then I knew some grand folk from the 20 acre. And it would have been stupid to blame all of them for what one Kitson from there did.
everyone is not the same thou are they!
f**k me, I never thought of that!
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Flint is the one most likely to lose her seat but I doubt she will. The Brexit Party being new are an unknown and in this area will probably take voters off both Labour and Tories but not enough and to a point Flint still takes the win.
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The fact that people are actually considering the possibility of Labour not winning in Doncaster tells you all you need to know about their prospects..
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So pretend for a minute we don't know and explain it to us WC
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My grandad was knocked down by a hit and run driver in Denaby. Broke his leg. He died 4 months later.
Never dawned on me to base my entire opinion of folk from Denaby in that example.
she will see it rightly or wrongly that if they were not hear he would still be alive, I’m sure many people would feel the same way it’s not always possible to think with a clear mind when angry and grieving
See, I could have thought, while grieving, that if everyone from the 20 acre estate in Denaby were not here, my grandad would have been knocked down.
But then I knew some grand folk from the 20 acre. And it would have been stupid to blame all of them for what one Kitson from there did.
Well good luck with trying to persuade her on that point Billy..The bottom line for her will always be that 2 Romanians with long criminal historys in their own country,were freely allowed to come over here and within 3 months had been arrested twice for shoplifting then broke into her brothers flat,robbed him,beat him up and a month later she was burying..
Now immigration isn't really a issue for me but whilst I always respect your opinion even though it's polar opposite to mine,i would advise that if your going to try and persude her she's wrong I would do it 5 paces back
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So pretend for a minute we don't know and explain it to us WC
It doesn't take much working out Sydney surely??? You could put a red rosette on a donkey in Donny and it would get in so if people are discussing the possibility of that not happening in even one seat.How do you think they will get on in all the marginal they need to get a majority???
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No. please indulge me and call it as you see it.
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The way I see it is that Labour have more chance of becoming the third party in this election than they do winning it..but that's just my opinion of course
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Thanks WC
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I agree with Swinson, neither Johnson or Corbyn are fit to be prime minister
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Corbyn may be left wing, too far for some and exaggerated by by the Murdoch press but he's not dishonest, untrustworthy, serial liar, philanderer, perpetrator of violence. In fact he's a moderate when it comes to war.
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My grandad was knocked down by a hit and run driver in Denaby. Broke his leg. He died 4 months later.
Never dawned on me to base my entire opinion of folk from Denaby in that example.
she will see it rightly or wrongly that if they were not hear he would still be alive, I’m sure many people would feel the same way it’s not always possible to think with a clear mind when angry and grieving
See, I could have thought, while grieving, that if everyone from the 20 acre estate in Denaby were not here, my grandad would have been knocked down.
But then I knew some grand folk from the 20 acre. And it would have been stupid to blame all of them for what one Kitson from there did.
Well good luck with trying to persuade her on that point Billy..The bottom line for her will always be that 2 Romanians with long criminal historys in their own country,were freely allowed to come over here and within 3 months had been arrested twice for shoplifting then broke into her brothers flat,robbed him,beat him up and a month later she was burying..
Now immigration isn't really a issue for me but whilst I always respect your opinion even though it's polar opposite to mine,i would advise that if your going to try and persude her she's wrong I would do it 5 paces back
Of course any one individual is going to have those thoughts as a victim of a horrendous crime.
The problem is in the wider context of other people putting 2 and 2 together and making 17.4 million..
My other half is an EU citizen but she isn’t a criminal - not even 3 speeding points - and I can’t imagine her ever becoming one..
But because some immigrants are criminals, some of our population would rather she wasn’t here.?
There’s plenty of British criminals too..
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I grew up and went to school with the influx of commonwealth immigrants, you know those people from the countries we invaded and ruled and didn't have a problem. One place where I worked was like the UN and the hundreds that worked there all got along. I now live in a country which as far as mixed culture is concerned is like a giant London and we love it, restaurants/food from everywhere in the world in fact when it's Ramadan we go to the areas where night food is available. I just don't get racism, passive or otherwise.
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
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Too true bb we certainly don't want any more conservatives 😊
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
I may disagree with your first line - to a point.
I believe that some, perhaps many people and in both sides will react with their opinions and votes only to “headlines” rather than the details behind them.
I’m not saying that is wrong either, as no one can be an expert on everything.
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
But we always had the capability of controlled immigration BB, it's just that successive Home Secretaries decided not to implement it! Oh, and do undesirables wear a badge? Or do you determine that by skin colour?
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What will be interesting is how this campaign develops.Will domestic policy's take precedent or will it become another brexit bunfest.The libs will be keen for that as it's their only attraction and they know it.I'm not sure Labour will want it brexit dominated tbh,If anybody watched Peston last night already Labour Mp's are producing their own leaflets stating their own opinion on brexit even if it's contrary to party policy..
They would much rather promote their spending plans on domestic and enviromental policy's i'm sure..Above i've predicted a tory majority but we've seen before momentum in a campaign can go a long way so i guess you cant rule anything out.One things for sure this will be a election like we've never seen before..
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(I dont count this as a B****t thread so can post on here. I am still avoiding the news as well !
Lib Dems as you say "a one trick Pony" will want that issue front and centre and will launch I suspect saying a vote for us gets Article 50 repealed / or a Second Referendum. They were toting Swinson as PM - SERIOUSLY ?
Labour - we will have to see how they pitch. Corbyn personally was always a Leaver whereas May was always a Remainer. Irony eh ?
Labour as a Party moved more and more to a second Ref / confirmatory Vote and lets see if they finally have the nerve / bottle to do it. They will try like mad to get the Election fought on the ills of the Country under the Tories but will fail (only imo) and it will become a head on clash over one issue.
Johnson knew it was the only way he could get it done because (again only imo) a 2nd Ref would have resulted in Remain winning - so he finally got a green light to go for GE courtesy of Lib Dems and SNP caving in
As you say WC this will be an Election the likes of we well me will not have seen before.
I would laugh like mad if at 10pm and 15 seconds on the 12th the Exit Poll says " BONG we are heading for a hung Parliament" and is right of course . Another wasted loads of money and time we will never get back
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
We CAN currently keep out persistent criminals from other EU countries. Theresa May chose not to do so while Home Secretary, preferring to make up stories about criminals being prevented from being deported by the ECHR because they had a cat.
The idea that the EU insists we allow criminals to wander across our border is just one of the myths that gets peddled by the Leave side and repeated through ignorance.
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Can we have a revote I dint know what I was voting for
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
But we always had the capability of controlled immigration BB, it's just that successive Home Secretaries decided not to implement it! Oh, and do undesirables wear a badge? Or do you determine that by skin colour?
Who brought skin colour into this thread apart from you? Some of you need to get off your moral high horses.
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On tactical voting, the important point is whether the seat is within range. If you are in one of the target marginals, vote for the most likely challenger.
Here are the Labour target marginals;
http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/labour
There are lots of sites encouraging people to vote "tactically" for candidates who have no chance of winning.
Explained here:
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2019/10/beware-of-dodgy-tactical-voting-sites.html
Beware snake oil salesmen!
Who'd have thought it? Tactical voting is a difficult one to call and there may be folk lifting folks shirts?
The opposition parties have had a year to form a Popular Front against Johnson-ism and they have spent more time sniping at each other instead. Now, it's looking like the only realistic way of preventing a Johnson majority is for their supporters to somehow do the impossible and figure out which anti-Johnson candidates are best placed, in a political environment in which there has been massive churn in support.
Good luck with that.
And here's the problem with expecting folk to work out who to vote tactically for as an anti-Johnson vote.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1189544666062045185
Truro's obvious int it? Labour were a fraction off winning in 2017.
Except, oh yeah. According to the polls, Labour's support has halved since 2017 and the LDs' support has more than doubled. And if you factor that in, the LDs would be clearly the challenger here.
And in that mess, you've got two different sites giving two different messages.
Like I say,there's been a year to sort out a formal anti-Johnson front and that year has been pissed away.
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Maybe labour and the Lib Dem’s could merge prob be best idea bst?
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Maybe labour and the Lib Dem’s could merge prob be best idea bst?
Corbyn has said today that Labour won't enter into coalition with anyone. If they get the most votes in a hung parliament, they will try and govern with a minority government.
Doesn't sound too good for them does it?
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1189951955931684864
This should guarantee a spike in Labour support.
Mind, who's kidnapped the real Nigel Farage? Remember him? That one who ranted about how Obama shouldn't get involved in British votes back in 2016?
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1189951955931684864
This should guarantee a spike in Labour support.
Mind, who's kidnapped the real Nigel Farage? Remember him? That one who ranted about how Obama shouldn't get involved in British votes back in 2016?
Big difference there BST. Trump isn't making threats against us.
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Obama wasn't making threats. He was warning us not to believe the bullshit merchants who were telling us that we'd get preferential treatment from the USA.
That's the sort of thing that friends do.
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
But we always had the capability of controlled immigration BB, it's just that successive Home Secretaries decided not to implement it! Oh, and do undesirables wear a badge? Or do you determine that by skin colour?
Who brought skin colour into this thread apart from you? Some of you need to get off your moral high horses.
It was a simple question to BB Steve. Looks like neither you nor him have an answer.
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
But we always had the capability of controlled immigration BB, it's just that successive Home Secretaries decided not to implement it! Oh, and do undesirables wear a badge? Or do you determine that by skin colour?
Who brought skin colour into this thread apart from you? Some of you need to get off your moral high horses.
It was a simple question to BB Steve. Looks like neither you nor him have an answer.
Are you accusing BB and myself of being racist?
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Obama wasn't making threats. He was warning us not to believe the bullshit merchants who were telling us that we'd get preferential treatment from the USA.
That's the sort of thing that friends do.
You seem to be struggling with semantics on this one BST. Telling a country that they'll go to the back of the queue for a trade deal if they vote to leave the EU sounds very much like a threat to me.
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SS.
Well aye. There are a lot of statements of fact about Brexit that you Leavers seem to take offence at.
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
But we always had the capability of controlled immigration BB, it's just that successive Home Secretaries decided not to implement it! Oh, and do undesirables wear a badge? Or do you determine that by skin colour?
Who brought skin colour into this thread apart from you? Some of you need to get off your moral high horses.
It was a simple question to BB Steve. Looks like neither you nor him have an answer.
Are you accusing BB and myself of being racist?
As I said, it was a simple question to BB Steve. Prey tell me where I've accused anyone of being racist. So, tell me, how do you identify undesirables as they try to enter the country. And while you're at it, tell me what criteria should be used to define someone as undesirable.
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
But we always had the capability of controlled immigration BB, it's just that successive Home Secretaries decided not to implement it! Oh, and do undesirables wear a badge? Or do you determine that by skin colour?
Who brought skin colour into this thread apart from you? Some of you need to get off your moral high horses.
It was a simple question to BB Steve. Looks like neither you nor him have an answer.
Are you accusing BB and myself of being racist?
As I said, it was a simple question to BB Steve. Prey tell me where I've accused anyone of being racist. So, tell me, how do you identify undesirables as they try to enter the country. And while you're at it, tell me what criteria should be used to define someone as undesirable.
I can't answer for BB, NNK, but I assume he means criminals, which is nothing to do with the colour of their skin.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1189951955931684864
This should guarantee a spike in Labour support.
Mind, who's kidnapped the real Nigel Farage? Remember him? That one who ranted about how Obama shouldn't get involved in British votes back in 2016?
Big difference there BST. Trump isn't making threats against us.
He's said he'd not give us as good as a trade deal unless we crash out. Isn't that a threat?
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Is that what he said? I read the transcription of his ramble and it sounded like someone trying to talk about geopolitics after an 18 pint bender.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1189951955931684864
This should guarantee a spike in Labour support.
Mind, who's kidnapped the real Nigel Farage? Remember him? That one who ranted about how Obama shouldn't get involved in British votes back in 2016?
Big difference there BST. Trump isn't making threats against us.
He's said he'd not give us as good as a trade deal unless we crash out. Isn't that a threat?
When did he say that?
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Gina Miller, has employed a Canadian firm to advise voters in certain constituencies how to vote tactically for her preferred result.
Now about those pesky Russians fixing elections? Should we put people in prison?
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Gina Miller, has employed a Canadian firm to advise voters in certain constituencies how to vote tactically for her preferred result.
Now about those pesky Russians fixing elections? Should we put people in prison?
It has been discussed in a couple of posts above. Apparently the advice is to vote Lib Dem in every case - even if a seat is held by a sitting Labour remainer MP or the LD's only got 4% in 2017.
This is the report into Russian interference in the referendum. Or it would be if Johnson hadn't suppressed it. Funny that. Must have changed his mind again...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/31/boris-johnson-accused-report-russia-dominic-grieve
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One may come to the conclusion that in fact johnson is the red under the bed rather than corbyn :)
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
We CAN currently keep out persistent criminals from other EU countries. Theresa May chose not to do so while Home Secretary, preferring to make up stories about criminals being prevented from being deported by the ECHR because they had a cat.
The idea that the EU insists we allow criminals to wander across our border is just one of the myths that gets peddled by the Leave side and repeated through ignorance.
Well, if that's the case thank goodness Theresa May's no longer in charge and Boris can fulfil his promise and get it sorted. I say Boris because surely those who support Corbyn and his right had woman Diane Abbott, who wants to make it easier for people to come here, are in the minority.
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Johnson fulfill a promise :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
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https://mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1189951955931684864
This should guarantee a spike in Labour support.
Mind, who's kidnapped the real Nigel Farage? Remember him? That one who ranted about how Obama shouldn't get involved in British votes back in 2016?
Big difference there BST. Trump isn't making threats against us.
He's said he'd not give us as good as a trade deal unless we crash out. Isn't that a threat?
When did he say that?
SS.
Go and listen to him. When you cut through the nursery school English, that's precisely what he said.
"We wanna do trade with the UK and they wanna do trade with us and, to be honest with you, this deal – under certain aspects of the deal – you can’t do it, you can’t do it, you can’t trade. We can’t make a trade deal with the UK. I think we can do many times the numbers we’re doing right now, and certainly much bigger numbers than you’re doing under the EU. Boris wants to be very careful with it. Under certain ways we would be precluded, which would be ridiculous."
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Oppo Parties ought to FINALLY get together and MEAN it
Leave SNP to sweep Scotland
Lib Dem and Labour agree to give each other a free run at the Tories instead of splitting the vote and letting them get Seats they may not have won - thus maximising non Conservative Seats
Once they win a Majority between them they first repeal Article 50 (and they have all run on a Remain manifesto in my dream scenario of course so very Democratic as everyone will know what they are votibg for and what will happen if Remain parties win)
Then they implement Proportional Representation (and anything else they have agreed to in advance)
Then at a pre arranged time they dissolve Parliament (not sure if Fixed Term still applies or whether Libs or Labour would agree to put down a Vote of no confidence in the bigger Party) and we have a real Election
SIMPLES ! (The idea not me hopefully)
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
We CAN currently keep out persistent criminals from other EU countries. Theresa May chose not to do so while Home Secretary, preferring to make up stories about criminals being prevented from being deported by the ECHR because they had a cat.
The idea that the EU insists we allow criminals to wander across our border is just one of the myths that gets peddled by the Leave side and repeated through ignorance.
Well, if that's the case thank goodness Theresa May's no longer in charge and Boris can fulfil his promise and get it sorted. I say Boris because surely those who support Corbyn and his right had woman Diane Abbott, who wants to make it easier for people to come here, are in the minority.
So, let's get this right BB.
You refuse to believe economists who have spent their careers getting predictions right, when they say that Brexit will be very bad for the economy.
But you are prepared to out your faith in a man who has built his entire career on lying through his teeth to do something positive.
Almost as if you just prefer having an argument to having a sensible grown up discussion. But I know it can't be that because you get all mardy whenever I suggest it.
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NO! I refuse to accept the view that there should be another referendum. It's f**k all to do with economists, and it's f**k all to do with having faith in Boris more than Jezza. If I had more faith in Jezza than Boris, heaven forbid, I'd feel just the same about Brexit. But Jezza wants to betray the referendum result, and Boris doesn't.
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And that outburst has precisely WHAT to do with what I said in my post?
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And that outburst has precisely WHAT to do with what I said in my post?
To me it looks like it relates to that bit about him getting mardy.
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The outburst is frustration from the repetitive strain of repeating myself time and time again to people who don't understand what I'm trying to portray.
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And that outburst has precisely WHAT to do with what I said in my post?
To me it looks like it relates to that bit about him getting mardy.
No, it's frustration, although that's not too far off the mark compared to your usual standards. Well done.
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BB
Well I'm glad we've identified that you don't now think it's about the economics
There'll be no reason for you to raise your regular criticisms of economic forecasts of the effect of Brexit in future. In fact, I'm left wondering why you've raised that issue so very many times, when, apparently, it's not about the economics.
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Corner + paint
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Bst genuine question as a remainer do you feel let down by labour that all they are interested in is corbyn getting in power, for 2 years all he has wanted is a general election with nothing about a 2nd referendum or anything? You must look at the you gov polls which say they are miles behind and think is it not time to vote Lib Dem’s? That way they would make a decision and scrap article 50?
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The reason I ask is so many people obviously think labour are doing something wrong, your wanting the opposition party to tatically vote to stop the tories winning, what do you see wrong with that anything?
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Bpool.
I think Corbyn made a horrific mistake last Xmas in not coming out unequivocally for Ref2, with Labour supporting Remain.
I suspect (although I hope I am wrong) that will lose Labour an Election that they should have won. And if they do lose it, the blame is 100% on the calls Corbyn and his inner team made last Xmas on Brexit (Corbyn wrote an article then saying he would campaign to Leave in a 2019 Election), that led to Labour losing 3-5 million supporters to the Greens and LDs.
It is a monumental mistake. He might yet pull it back, but the overwhelming likelihood is that he won't.
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I think the opposition made a huge tactical error very very recently
Just after Johnson offered them extra time (a few days) as long as they agreed to an Election on Dec 12 they (well at least Labour Libs and SNP) should have - as one - said NO
He said this was the only way to get things done blah blah you all know the rest and they should have said WAIT there is a second way :
We will promise to pass your Bill now and unamended as long as we cant exit on No Deal terms of course and that once it is passed it is put to the people for ratification
HE not THEM would then have been looking like the unreasonable one - well thats what I think should have happened and then would have happened.
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BB
Well I'm glad we've identified that you don't now think it's about the economics
There'll be no reason for you to raise your regular criticisms of economic forecasts of the effect of Brexit in future. In fact, I'm left wondering why you've raised that issue so very many times, when, apparently, it's not about the economics.
I'll criticize economic forecasters if they get it wrong, along with people who, like you, refuse to accept it when they do.
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Got any spare links guvnor :)
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I doubt many people are against immigration. I suspect plenty are all for controlled immigration that keeps out undesirables, though.
But we always had the capability of controlled immigration BB, it's just that successive Home Secretaries decided not to implement it! Oh, and do undesirables wear a badge? Or do you determine that by skin colour?
Who brought skin colour into this thread apart from you? Some of you need to get off your moral high horses.
It was a simple question to BB Steve. Looks like neither you nor him have an answer.
Are you accusing BB and myself of being racist?
As I said, it was a simple question to BB Steve. Prey tell me where I've accused anyone of being racist. So, tell me, how do you identify undesirables as they try to enter the country. And while you're at it, tell me what criteria should be used to define someone as undesirable.
I can't answer for BB, NNK, but I assume he means criminals, which is nothing to do with the colour of their skin.
Thank you Steve, at least that's one definition. But that would only catch 'undesirables' in that category which we already knew about - and we have the capability to do that already without leaving the EU. I suspect, though I cannot speak for him either, that BB had other thoughts as to what constituted 'undesirable'.
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By undesirable I mean known criminals and people who haven't found work prior to coming here and come here for a free ride. Obviously, some of them will slip through the net but if they do they should be deported as soon as it is proved to be the case.
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Giving up the information links with other EU police and security forces is really going to help us find the 'known' ones.
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Giving that up would be detrimental to keeping out the undesirables, but so would putting Corbyn and Abbott in power.
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People can point to policies all they want. The salient fact is outside of the hardcore labour bubble, the general public don't like Corbyn and that will be labour's downfall in this election
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but better than having undesirables in government.
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Sydney, I appreciate your views but you are in that hardcore labour bubble. Corbyn isn't popular at all in comparison to Johnson (I'll not be voting for him either) if labour are to win they need a change now.
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I appreciate your views too but you're wrong you haven't a clue who I vote for.
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This is very true mate, and if any insult then I apologise. Just going on impressions as we all do on here
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People can point to policies all they want. The salient fact is outside of the hardcore labour bubble, the general public don't like Corbyn and that will be labour's downfall in this election
Such a shame Murdoch and crew are ruling the narrative. People like the quoted post and the one above it lap it up.
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thankyou, I just don't support incompetent right wing governments, ever
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Sydney, seeing as how the last Labour government bankrupt the country, and the liberals were as culpable as the Tories for austerity, the greens policy will also bankrupt us and put personal transport out of the reach of most of the working population, you don't have much of a choice there mate.
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Sydney, seeing as how the last Labour government bankrupt the country, and the liberals were as culpable as the Tories for austerity, the greens policy will also bankrupt us and put personal transport out of the reach of most of the working population, you don't have much of a choice there mate.
Not sure how many times you need telling, but the Labour party did not bankrupt the Country, they actually saved us from that, the GLOBAL crash was caused by the Tories friends, the bankers!
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Sydney, seeing as how the last Labour government bankrupt the country, and the liberals were as culpable as the Tories for austerity, the greens policy will also bankrupt us and put personal transport out of the reach of most of the working population, you don't have much of a choice there mate.
Britain Surrendering Together party? :lol:
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With your football blogs you show that you can absorb facts and debate well but when you're are on here you just trot out rubbish that's been blown away years ago, I know you don't agree with anyone left of Attila but you must read bst's comments that disprove that old myth surely.
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bb what sort of argument have you booked in for today?
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Not given it much thought yet, owd lad. I'm attending a British Bulldog meeting shortly.
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I see there is a brexit special being made by the little Britain team you should put your hand up you'd be good :)
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Don't mind David Walliams but can't stand that Lucas fella.
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Labour bankrupt the country. :laugh:
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I do wish you economists would stop trying to predict the future.
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Will Johnson blink, he said before he wouldn't do a deal but absolutely nobody trusts him.
The elites want to carve up the country-taking back control :(
Farage has now finished his opening speech. He is now taking questions.
Q: How many candidates will you stand if the Tories do accept this deal? And when must they decide?
Farage says nominations close on 14 November.
He says he recognises the Tories are a much bigger party.
But there are 150 seats that the Tories have never won in their history. He says these are the seats where the Brexit party would do better, he says. There could be a non-aggression pact. That would benefit the Brexit cause, he says.
He says the Johnson deal is so bad it would amount to “the end of Brexit”.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/nov/01/general-election-news-latest-brexit-farage-restates-call-for-brexit-party-pact-with-tories-live-news?page=with:block-5dbc14bc8f08d669
added
So it appears Farage wants a deal with the Tories so he can get a full hard on as he says Johnson's deal is not Brexit, he wants to force Johnson into the UK crashing out with no deal.
You don't need an economist to see this bb
Q: Won’t you damage the Tory prospects, and stop Brexit happening?
Farage says Johnson is like a used-car salesman. The car may look fine from the outside. But it isn’t. This is not real Brexit, he says.
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People can point to policies all they want. The salient fact is outside of the hardcore labour bubble, the general public don't like Corbyn and that will be labour's downfall in this election
So people like Corbyn's policies but not him? Is it his beard?
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I find that tragically funny farage calling Johnson a used car salesman, :(
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People can point to policies all they want. The salient fact is outside of the hardcore labour bubble, the general public don't like Corbyn and that will be labour's downfall in this election
So people like Corbyn's policies but not him? Is it his beard?
You're trivialising or attempting to deflect an important point, Labour will struggle to win with him in charge, the brand is tarnished.
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They all are Ldr, the major parties anyway.?
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Couldn't agree more
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hmm, let me see,who would I like to run the country?
A team that has failed for nine years, split the country failed economically and have voted a serial liar and spiv to be leader.
A team that has never run anything except a destruction campaign with a spiv for a leader
A team that wants to unite the country, look after those less well off, save the NHS and has a considered moderate opinion about taking the country into war.
gosh it's so difficult :(
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That's idealist Sydney and I agree somewhat, unfortunately the toxicity of the Corbyn brand is what the majority of voters see
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Ldr.
I agree with you on Corbyn and have said so frequently.
But I don't agree that it is somehow overly idealistic to argue that folk should look at policies rather than the person.
In fact I'd argue the other way. If people like a party's policies, it's very, very odd that they should vehemently dislike the leader.
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Vote Johnson, get Trump;
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EIO-xwmWwAI9hDl.jpg
Whose the daddy!
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By undesirable I mean known criminals and people who haven't found work prior to coming here and come here for a free ride. Obviously, some of them will slip through the net but if they do they should be deported as soon as it is proved to be the case.
Thank you for your response BB. We already have the mechanism to refuse entry to known criminals, (subject to that being down to certain crimes), also the ability to deport people. I can attest to the latter being operational as my eldest Son was, at one point in his career, responsible for organising air transport to deport such people.
However, it would be almost impossible to determine if someone seeking entry had employment to go to, people come here on holiday or to go into higher education and some occasionally stay beyond their permitted time, (usually entering illegal employment). But ignoring those who legitimately come here to seek asylum, the number of people who come for, as you like to call it, 'a free ride' is quite small - unless you believe the sensationalism of the occasional ones reported in the likes of the Daily Mail, and I don't think you're daft enough to fall for those reports as being typical of lots of those foreigners coming to this country.
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I like Labours policies and other than Greens I can't see myself voting for anyone else primarily based on policies, maybe Lib Dems but they do worry me especially with abstaining with the NHS vote the other day.
Leader-wise, I don't think Corbyn is the best and Labour have better alternatives but I believe he'd put party ahead of his own opinions. I much prefer him to Johnson, Farage or Swinson.
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This is where we differ BST, I appreciate your view on Corbyn but don't have belief that the general public can see past personalities
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Unfortunately you are right there Ldr.
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The Farage bit is interesting as it could sap the tories in some areas. I hope there is no pact as there is no way some.tory voters will vote brexit party, thus where will they go.
I'm swaying most towards tory, for me its usually them or lib dems, but it will never be Farage.
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This is where we differ BST, I appreciate your view on Corbyn but don't have belief that the general public can see past personalities
Ldr
I entirely agree with you. But I don't accept that as an acceptable state of affairs. Which is why I talk (incessantly) about policy.
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hmm, let me see,who would I like to run the country?
A team that has failed for nine years, split the country failed economically and have voted a serial liar and spiv to be leader.
A team that has never run anything except a destruction campaign with a spiv for a leader
A team that wants to unite the country, look after those less well off, save the NHS and has a considered moderate opinion about taking the country into war.
gosh it's so difficult :(
Sydney, old mate. I agree with just about everything you've said there, apart from the bit about Labour wanting to unite the country. How on Earth can they do that? By telling 17.4 million people to f*ck off? Because that's exactly what they'll be doing if they hold a second referendum, and put Remain on the ballot paper, which instantly negates the result of the first vote, without it ever having been enacted upon.
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SS.
How to you draw the conclusion that negotiating a Leave deal and then holding a vote on whether people want that is telling Leave voters to f**k off?
Especially when Corbyn WANTS us to leave the EU?
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hmm, let me see,who would I like to run the country?
A team that has failed for nine years, split the country failed economically and have voted a serial liar and spiv to be leader.
A team that has never run anything except a destruction campaign with a spiv for a leader
A team that wants to unite the country, look after those less well off, save the NHS and has a considered moderate opinion about taking the country into war.
gosh it's so difficult :(
Sydney, old mate. I agree with just about everything you've said there, apart from the bit about Labour wanting to unite the country. How on Earth can they do that? By telling 17.4 million people to f*ck off? Because that's exactly what they'll be doing if they hold a second referendum, and put Remain on the ballot paper, which instantly negates the result of the first vote, without it ever having been enacted upon.
What option would you take to unite the country?
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hmm, let me see,who would I like to run the country?
A team that has failed for nine years, split the country failed economically and have voted a serial liar and spiv to be leader.
A team that has never run anything except a destruction campaign with a spiv for a leader
A team that wants to unite the country, look after those less well off, save the NHS and has a considered moderate opinion about taking the country into war.
gosh it's so difficult :(
Sydney, old mate. I agree with just about everything you've said there, apart from the bit about Labour wanting to unite the country. How on Earth can they do that? By telling 17.4 million people to f*ck off? Because that's exactly what they'll be doing if they hold a second referendum, and put Remain on the ballot paper, which instantly negates the result of the first vote, without it ever having been enacted upon.
What option would you take to unite the country?
As I've said many times on here, DO, there isn't one. We're f*cked forever, and Cameron is to blame.
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Yep Filo, all it took was a skim off the top of ordinary workers pensions for Brown to save the world. how do you think they will spend spend spend, this time. It will not be with the multinationals or the rich peoples money, they will not be here for them to do it.
If Corbyn get's in, the lack of investment in this country will make Brexit economy forecasts look like a tea party. Whenever Labour get in the economy tanks, and this guy's ideas will make the industrialists and bankers vacate quicker than ever, because it has never been easier to transfer wealth and manufacturing around the world.
Oh they will still make money in the UK, but forget getting lot's of tax and profits to fund your grand designs, that will be somewhere else at a lower percentage.
You can shout from the highest building and stamp your feet, that is what will happen. And if they still go on with their ideology and grand schemes the working man will pick up the tab.
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SS.
How to you draw the conclusion that negotiating a Leave deal and then holding a vote on whether people want that is telling Leave voters to f**k off?
Especially when Corbyn WANTS us to leave the EU?
The problem with it is what do you do next? Propose another deal? Keep going until theres a majority for something?
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Labour's policy is precisely to propose another deal. One that is far closer to the average opinion in the country than anything Johnson or Farage have tabled. One that, an opinion poll earlier this year found that 75% of the population would have had as their first or second choice. And then ask to country if that is what they want.
What we have at the moment is a narrow vote 3.5 years ago for a Brexit that was never defined, and that result having been hijacked by the far right of British politics to drive us to a type of Brexit that was never remotely discussed in 2016.
And folk say that Labour's policy is somehow an outrage against democracy while Johnson and Farage are upholding democratic principles...
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Yep Filo, all it took was a skim off the top of ordinary workers pensions for Brown to save the world. how do you think they will spend spend spend, this time. It will not be with the multinationals or the rich peoples money, they will not be here for them to do it.
If Corbyn get's in, the lack of investment in this country will make Brexit economy forecasts look like a tea party. Whenever Labour get in the economy tanks, and this guy's ideas will make the industrialists and bankers vacate quicker than ever, because it has never been easier to transfer wealth and manufacturing around the world.
Oh they will still make money in the UK, but forget getting lot's of tax and profits to fund your grand designs, that will be somewhere else at a lower percentage.
You can shout from the highest building and stamp your feet, that is what will happen. And if they still go on with their ideology and grand schemes the working man will pick up the tab.
Selby, wasn't it the industrialist's, bankers and tory toffs that gave the world the gfc or are you going to blame JC for that?
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Selby, I'll add to my previous post that in Aus the labor party dealt with the gfc with a massive stimulus package that was opposed every step of the way by the LNP coaltiton. The result was that Australia avoided recession and survived better than most countries in the world. However the msm which includes all the Murdoch rags set about to deny and destroy that to the point now that and try to portray it as reckless spending. The same is happening in the UK.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Yep Filo, all it took was a skim off the top of ordinary workers pensions for Brown to save the world. how do you think they will spend spend spend, this time. It will not be with the multinationals or the rich peoples money, they will not be here for them to do it.
If Corbyn get's in, the lack of investment in this country will make Brexit economy forecasts look like a tea party. Whenever Labour get in the economy tanks, and this guy's ideas will make the industrialists and bankers vacate quicker than ever, because it has never been easier to transfer wealth and manufacturing around the world.
Oh they will still make money in the UK, but forget getting lot's of tax and profits to fund your grand designs, that will be somewhere else at a lower percentage.
You can shout from the highest building and stamp your feet, that is what will happen. And if they still go on with their ideology and grand schemes the working man will pick up the tab.
The country will be better off under Corbyn's spending plans then Johnson's say those dangerous left wing organisations, the Financial Times, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and CitiBank:
https://www.ft.com/content/7cdfa832-e908-11e9-a240-3b065ef5fc55
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Hindsight does not mean communicating via your anus! 😊
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Fracking banned in UK as government makes major U-turn
“When the Tory government overruled local democratic decisions to halt fracking, communities did not give up. When fracking protesters went to jail, communities did not give up. And now they have forced the government to U-turn.''
“The Tories owe the public an apology, and an explanation of how much public money they wasted while ignoring the science.”
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/02/fracking-banned-in-uk-as-government-makes-major-u-turn
ere Marge, wot's that burning smell? red lines George red lines.
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https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/02/super-rich-leave-uk-labour-election-win-jeremy-corbyn-wealth-taxes. Interesting piece
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Fracking banned in UK as government makes major U-turn
“When the Tory government overruled local democratic decisions to halt fracking, communities did not give up. When fracking protesters went to jail, communities did not give up. And now they have forced the government to U-turn.''
“The Tories owe the public an apology, and an explanation of how much public money they wasted while ignoring the science.”
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/02/fracking-banned-in-uk-as-government-makes-major-u-turn
ere Marge, wot's that burning smell? red lines George red lines.
Steal Corbyns thunder off him - as he vowed to ban fracking and be better for the environment
Tories jump in and despite their previous support to let big business loose where they were not wanted they too ban Fracking
Now the masterstroke - once they win the Election (as they hope they will) they suddenly produce a new Report and a few scientists to back it up and say "actually after an in depth study Fracking isnt as bad as we thought so we have given the go ahead again"
Cynical ? You bet I am
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Sydney, Australia survived a recession because China were buying every piece of coal and mineral they could produce to fire their big step forward.
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https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/02/super-rich-leave-uk-labour-election-win-jeremy-corbyn-wealth-taxes. Interesting piece
Its worrying a fair amount of it. Discourage the rich from.investing and drastically increase taxes on successful businesses. It could really discourage business investment.
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Sydney, Australia survived a recession because China were buying every piece of coal and mineral they could produce to fire their big step forward.
Do you want to back up your 'hindsight' with some proof Selby or have you been sitting on the Sun?
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https://amp.theguardian.com/news/2019/nov/02/super-rich-leave-uk-labour-election-win-jeremy-corbyn-wealth-taxes. Interesting piece
The article doesn't tell us where they have their money now? If they are only in the UK to 'save' their money then they won't be missed, Dyson and plenty of others like him are planning or have already gone. People will always come and go does this mean we shouldn't make Britain a better place?
If people can make money and they are physically safe they will stay.
From Wilts post yesterday:
''The country will be better off under Corbyn's spending plans then Johnson's say those dangerous left wing organisations, the Financial Times, the Institute for Fiscal Studies and CitiBank:''
https://www.ft.com/content/7cdfa832-e908-11e9-a240-3b065ef5fc55
We have a businessman on here a good local employer in Wing Commander that wants out of the EU because he sees it better for his business but hasn't explained why and he trotted out the old rubbish about labor governments always leaving deficits, the moral is look at the evidence.
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Because he does not need to come on a messageboard and justify himself, he has stated his opinion just like others so what’s the problem? He might have his own reasons that he wishes to keep to himself
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Exactly
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Bpool.
Opinions don't work like that though. If you give them and you can't support them, they are worthless. And folk pointing out that they are worthless aren't bullying. They are providing a social service by stopping shite from getting traction.
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Another cynical "gift"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50278634
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ayup george give us a hand with the buntin' luv.
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Does anyone think this report will see the light of day before election day?
''Dominic Grieve calls for release of report on Russian meddling
Intelligence and security committee chair says dossier has facts ‘germane’ to voters''
Dominic Grieve has called for the publication of a report on Russian meddling in the democratic process to be published before the general election, saying it contains knowledge “germane” to voters.
''Boris Johnson had been expected to approve publication of the 50-page dossier, compiled by the cross-party intelligence and security committee, by Thursday. His failure to do so sparked calls for its release amid speculation that it could potentially be damaging to the government.''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/02/dominic-grieve-calls-for-release-of-report-on-russian-meddling-in-uk
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This.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50294569
An utter, utter disgrace.
This is a genuine affront to democracy.
I wonder if Grieve is tempted to leak it?
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I'm beginning to think you may be right for once bp about politicians in high office and their connections to the Kremlin.
''Fresh evidence has also emerged of attempts by the Kremlin to infiltrate the Conservatives by a senior Russian diplomat suspected of espionage, who spent five years in London cultivating leading Tories including Johnson himself.
It can now be revealed that Sergey Nalobin – who once described the future prime minister as “our good friend” – lives in a Moscow apartment block known as the “FSB house” because it houses so many employees from the Kremlin’s main spy agency.''
CONSERVATIVE FRIENDS OF RUSSIA just a selection: Johnson, Cummings, Symonds, Elliot ...
''In 2014, Lubov Chernukhin – the wife of the former Russian deputy finance minister – paid £160,000 to play tennis with Johnson and David Cameron. The match was the star lot at a Conservative summer party auction. Another guest at the 2013 fundraiser was Vasily Shestakov, Vladimir Putin’s judo partner.
Committee members were also briefed on an extraordinary – and for a while an apparently successful – attempt to penetrate Conservative circles by Nalobin, who instigated a pro-Kremlin parliamentary group, the Conservative Friends of Russia.''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/04/no-10-blocks-russia-eu-referendum-report-until-after-election
ere Marge wot's all this abart a party and ruskies ? nothin innit George jus a tory game where they roll over and have their tummies tickled is all 😊
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As ever, bang on the head from Simon Wren-Lewis.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/11/libdem-fantasies-about-december-election.html?m=1
tl:dr.
Very simple. If you lean left and you vote LD or Green YOU will be responsible for Johnson having a majority for 5 years. No-one else. YOU.
General Elections are not the time to indulge yourselves. You have to be hard-headed. It was the self-righteous self-indulgence of those on the left who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Brown in 2010 ("because he's a Red Tory and there's no difference between him and Cameron". b*llocks. Self-indulgent b*llocks.) that has given us this car crash of a decade.
Don't be the ones who make that same mistake this time.
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Out of interest could labour voters not vote for Lib Dem’s rather than the other way?
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Can’t believe how much crap I’m getting on fb from tories and labour I’m not even signed up to anything and there both bombarding me lol
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Dominic Cummings and his Vote Leave chums up to their old tricks doctoring footage again:
https://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/1191732381306277890
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And look at the response of that smug Kitson, Toby Young.
https://twitter.com/toadmeister/status/1191748173800165377
Not. "Yes, you are right. This is very bad and it destroys faith in the honesty and integrity of politics. It should not and must not be allowed and I think whoever authorised this should be sacked".
None of that. Just a suggestion that they are all at it. Without any evidence of that.
t**t. Utter t**t.
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This of course, is the same Tory party HQ that faked that BBC website a few weeks ago to give the clear (and lying ) impression that they were putting twice as much new money into schools as they actually were.
The Tories think you are so f**king thick that you can be lied to and you'll just lap it up. I challenge you. Find ANY example of Labour doing something similar in this election. If you can't, do not ever use that "Oh they're all as bad as each other" bone idle phrase. And have some self-respect when you genuinely DO see a political party lying to you through its teeth.
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Good news for the Tories in that part of the business community have come out in support of Johnson. Bad news for the rest pf us though as it is the Hedge Funds and currency speculators who reportedly stand to gain billions on a hard Brexit when the pound and remainder of the economy crash:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-05/hedge-funds-flock-to-support-johnson-fueled-by-fears-of-corbyn
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You could say every election for the last 30 years labour have said vote us as tories want to privatise the nhs, and then gone and done exactly what the tories gave is that a lie or bending the truth
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You could say every election for the last 30 years labour have said vote us as tories want to privatise the nhs, and then gone and done exactly what the tories gave is that a lie or bending the truth
Watch it BR, you'll be accused of lazy thinking.
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I thought I had accidentally logged into a Labour Party political broadcast script when I came on here.
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This of course, is the same Tory party HQ that faked that BBC website a few weeks ago to give the clear (and lying ) impression that they were putting twice as much new money into schools as they actually were.
The Tories think you are so f**king thick that you can be lied to and you'll just lap it up. I challenge you. Find ANY example of Labour doing something similar in this election. If you can't, do not ever use that "Oh they're all as bad as each other" bone idle phrase. And have some self-respect when you genuinely DO see a political party lying to you through its teeth.
I take it then that you didn't see BB's compilation of Labour MPs peddling the line "We will definitely respect the result of the Referendum"?
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Oh I saw it SS. There wasn't a lie in there. We went through it at the time.
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Hound.
Haven't you heard? There's going to be an election. Don't you think it's a social duty to discuss (robustly) the issues associated with that?
Issues like one Tory minister today effectively telling the Grenfell victims they didn't use common sense? And another Tory minister demonstrably lying about the fact that him shooting his mouth off screwed up a rape trial?
These people are supposed to be the ones we trust to use their judgement to run the country. Not very encouraging is it?
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Sadly I don’t trust any of the lot of them (all parties) to run a piss up in a brewery.
They are all as bad as each other.
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Sadly I don’t trust any of the lot of them (all parties) to run a piss up in a brewery.
They are all as bad as each other.
Blackpool?
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Sadly I don’t trust any of the lot of them (all parties) to run a piss up in a brewery.
They are all as bad as each other.
Today - that's just today before the election campaign has officially started;
Boris Johnson has been accused of deliberately misleading ministers and the viewing public by stating 3 policies that were clearly untrue at a cabinet meeting filmed for tv
The leader of the HoC has been forced to apologise to the survivors and families of the victims who burnt to death in Grenfell Tower for insinuating they burnt to death because they didn't use 'common sense' in a live radio phone-in
A senior ERG member was been condemned for attempting to support Mr Rees-Mogg by saying he was cleverer than the people running the fire brigade at Grenfell Tower.
A further cabinet minister has been condemned for endorsing a candidate who deliberately crashed a rape trial
The Tory Party have been banned from releasing an assessment of Labour spending plans by Treasury officials because this was an inapproriate use of taxpayers money
An advert was removed from facebook because it was misleading and the people who put it there forgot to say they were run by a former Johnson advisor
An report into Russian meddling into public elections and the 2016 referendum was blocked from release by Johnson - a move that the head of the commons security committee and two former heads of MI5 said was surprising and the government's ex terrorism watchdog said 'invited suspicion'.
An interview by Keir Starmer on tv was doctored to pretend he did not answer a question that he did answer and then sent out as an advert by the Tory Party
No Tory representative would go on Channel 4 to discuss the appalling rise in the use of foodbanks and its link to benefit changes in the Trussell Trust report released to today.
All these things happened today. If anyone wants to list what the Labour Party or Labour members did today for balance that would be useful.
Then we could see if 'they are all as bad as one another'?
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Oh I saw it SS. There wasn't a lie in there. We went through it at the time.
Labour say boris lied about leaving on 31st on that video they all said once in a lifetime vote we will be leaving, if boris is lying so are they, if you agree he didn’t lie then fair enough
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Sadly I don’t trust any of the lot of them (all parties) to run a piss up in a brewery.
They are all as bad as each other.
Today - that's just today before the election campaign has officially started;
Boris Johnson has been accused of deliberately misleading ministers and the viewing public by stating 3 policies that were clearly untrue at a cabinet meeting filmed for tv
The leader of the HoC has been forced to apologise to the survivors and families of the victims who burnt to death in Grenfell Tower for insinuating they burnt to death because they didn't use 'common sense' in a live radio phone-in
A senior ERG member was been condemned for attempting to support Mr Rees-Mogg by saying he was cleverer than the people running the fire brigade at Grenfell Tower.
A further cabinet minister has been condemned for endorsing a candidate who deliberately crashed a rape trial
The Tory Party have been banned from releasing an assessment of Labour spending plans by Treasury officials because this was an inapproriate use of taxpayers money
An advert was removed from facebook because it was misleading and the people who put it there forgot to say they were run by a former Johnson advisor
An report into Russian meddling into public elections and the 2016 referendum was blocked from release by Johnson - a move that the head of the commons security committee and two former heads of MI5 said was surprising and the government's ex terrorism watchdog said 'invited suspicion'.
An interview by Keir Starmer on tv was doctored to pretend he did not answer a question that he did answer and then sent out as an advert by the Tory Party
No Tory representative would go on Channel 4 to discuss the appalling rise in the use of foodbanks and its link to benefit changes in the Trussell Trust report released to today.
All these things happened today. If anyone wants to list what the Labour Party or Labour members did today for balance that would be useful.
Then we could see if 'they are all as bad as one another'?
You forgot the Tory Party memo to all candidates instructing them not to sign any pledges to stop the NHS being sold off
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/05/dont-sign-pledges-on-nhs-or-climate-tory-hq-tells-candidates
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Wilts.
Goebbels said, something to the effect of, don't lie small. If you're going to lie, go all in and eviscerate the concept of objective truth.
That list you gave there. 30 years ago, you wouldn't have had so many outrageous, outright lies and deceptions in 5 years from a governing party. Now we get that tsunami in one day.
And folk on the other side insist on saying "yeah but..." while the entire concept of objective truth in politics is being eviscerated. And ALL from the Right, on both sides of the Atlantic.
It is truly frightening.
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The problem as I see it is that people are (understandably) reluctant to accept that the people they want to win are simply lying to them. So they want to see equal nefariousness on the other side.
But on key points, there is no equality. Yes, no politician or political party is flawless, but on the big points, in recent years, the Left simply has not systematically lied, like the Right has.
What folk are doing here is equating a change of policy in response to changing circumstances (e.g. Labour now supporting Ref2) to simple, outright lying (e.g. Tory Central Office fabricating that BBC web page or this morning's GMB video) or Leave.EU doctoring that video of EU negotiators to make it look as though they were plotting to cheat the UK.
They are simply not comparable. One is re-positioining of policy. The other is deliberately and systematically lying about objective facts.
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Sadly I don’t trust any of the lot of them (all parties) to run a piss up in a brewery.
They are all as bad as each other.
Blackpool?that is a lot of people’s opinion of them or do you know different?
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https://apple.news/AcHdQUdIwRiyPBgxeMcmKIQ of course that’s not lying it’s making a point lol
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https://apple.news/AcHdQUdIwRiyPBgxeMcmKIQ of course that’s not lying it’s making a point lol
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1191632354567172096?s=19 (https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1191632354567172096?s=19)
US standards allow for one maggot per 250ml. Obviously you might not get any maggots and hopefully you don't but they do have standards which are lesser than our own.
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Do you honestly think that will happen in this country?
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Do you honestly think that will happen in this country?
If we're importing those foods from the US then we'll have no choice but to accept their regulations. It's like chlorinated chicken, the chlorine isn't bad for you, it's just it doesn't clean it as it should so that's why the US has many more food poisoning cases than we do.
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This thread is a capsule of why Labour are doing so badly.All of you can do nothing other than bash the Tory's post after post.Theres hardly a point about labour policy's and why they would be better for the country.You are living in the Labour membership bubble blindly ignoring the fact that despite all that you spout the tory's are still well ahead in the polls despite them being a failed goverment over the last parliament.What does that tell you about Labour??????
Of course that's the right wing press fault entirely no doubt.It's there fault that even now nobody knows whether Labour back leave or remain..Labours wishy washy politics under the worst leader in any generation who has such a negative appeal to the Country has a whole is getting you 9/10th's of nowhere..That's the fact's as we speak.None of you can argue with that .I suggest if you have any hope of convincing people on here or anywhere else for that matter that Labour are a credible alternative to run this Country you start by stopping this endless mud slinging and start promoting the Party you support and telling people why because so far the only people you are convincing are yourselves.
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Hubble bubble WC, is there a labour leader you did like and voted for?
Of course the tories get bashed they f@cking well deserve it, show us some thing they did well?
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Nope but then again I don't believe in socialism.However it's not me that Labour need to convince..It's the floating voters.Hows that going for you?
Once again you revert to type with wanting to talk about the Tory's.Here's a idea just for a change why don't you talk about Labour.Why they would be so great for our economy and why they continually fail to convince people of it...
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It's extremely difficult to gauge how good any political party is without comparing it/them to a baseline/standard and the only standards are past and present parties and I would suggest the best comparisons can be made with a current government so naturally the Tories and their record comes into it.
There is plenty of posts here discussing labour's policies on it's own thread and there has been plenty of criticism of JC and from left wing supporters and lots of distorted facts from others that just parrot what they read/hear in the media.
You yourself have claimed that labour always leaves a deficit without proof and subsequently shown to be incorrect.
So when someone posts things about the Tories why wouldn't those that don't support don't like them offer facts which more often than not show that they/johnson lied or that the post was incorrect, he appears to lie every day. He lied to his own cabinet and the nation only yesterday.
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WC, the Tories are currently in power, have been for years, have driven the entire Brexit process from start to finish and have given us the most chaotic peacetime political situation in living memory. They're driving the entire legislative agenda for the country - of course people will bash them. Especially when more the one of their prominent MPs is publicly saying people who burned to death in a horrific fire lacked "common sense" and they're deliberately doctoring footage to make their opponents look bad.
In between all that, you will find posts from BST and wilts in particular discussing Labour policy and economic principles in detail if you care to look.
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It's strange that Sydney because when I last started a thread specifically about Labour and there failing to make a dent into the British electorate it petered out after a couple of posts.Start one on Boris and the Tory's and it's pages long..
At the top of this thread is a poll on who you would vote for in the GE.Now of course being Doncaster Labour would win that but out of the 65 people who voted, 36.9% would vote Labour (24 people) and 26.2% would vote Tory (17 people).How many of those Tory voters actually post on these threads?? Hardly any and why is that?? Because people don't think it's worth it,they read the constant bashing of the Tory's from the Left and realise there is little point engaging..
And that's the point I'm making.Labour have got to start forgetting about Mogg,Boris and start promoting themselves.Telling people what they actually stand for and yes that does include Brexit.How they are going to do it,how they are going to pay for it and how that will grow our economy.People don't need convincing that this Government has been rubbish,everybody knows it.They need convincing that Labour would be better,and right now they are simply failing to do that.!
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And that's a very good point you made you know this government is rubbish, everybody knows its leader is a liar and can't be trusted but will you vote for someone else because of that? not necessarily labor whom has returned a surplus every time in recent history except for I think due to the gfc.
And will you admit you got it wrong about claiming labour never leaves a surplus cos it goes to fundamental knowledge about modern politics don't you think?
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That is a very good question and one I have yet to fully decide on if I'm honest.I don't know if I could vote for anybody tbh right now.I could never vote for Corbyn ever no matter what he says,not just on his magic money tree home policy's but on his absurd views on foreign policy.That and I'm ex military and would never vote for him and some of his front bench on there past sympathy's to organisations who have murdered our own.
I couldn't vote Liberal because there policy on brexit and the failure to stop the will of the people without a second vote is a disgrace.
And I'm far from impressed with the Tory government right now as well as has been highlighted to death on here,so for the first time ever I'm practically unrepresented.
As for your last point,i respect Billy's thoroughness on things like this but haven't had chance to check that but if I was wrong fair enough.Lets try this one instead.No Labour government has left office with unemployment lower than when it was first elected since 1929....
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Thanks I appreciate your answer, I'll post this just for an example but leave your last question again to bst as he has all the answer stored in his basement :)
Not that I think that a deficit is the end of the world but this parameter is always one of the tools used to shape elections
And when you say stop moaning/blaming the press or the msm there is more media overall that supports the right whether you like that fact or not.
''A clear choice: Labour debt or Tory realism''
Telegraph View: the Chancellor insists that he can afford to spend more on the NHS because the economy is growing so fast. Certainly, things would be poorer under Labour.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/autumn-statement/11263077/A-clear-choice-Labour-debt-or-Tory-realism.html
''Labour and Conservative records on the national debt''
https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/
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WingCo
But that unemployment comment is both factually incorrect and ,if you'll excuse my bluntness, stupid.
Take the last Labour Govt.
Labour came to power in 1997 after two decades in which we'd got used to 3+million on the dole. By 1997, the Tories had rediscovered economic sense under Ken Clarke for a few years, and unemployment was coming down. Labour kept it decreasing for ELEVEN YEARS. Until the shock of the global financial crash. And even then, they left power with unemployment lower than when they arrived.
This graph of the number of unemployed people in UK starts in the day Labour took power and ends on the day they lost power. It uses Office for National Statistics figures.
(https://d3fy651gv2fhd3.cloudfront.net/charts/united-kingdom-unemployed-persons@4x.png?s=unitedkinuneper&v=201910150927V20191105&d1=19970503&d2=20100606)
So
a) you are factually wrong to say unemployment is always higher when a Labour Govt ends than when it starts.
b) Even if you were right,it is simply stupid to ignore the time in between.
I AM being blunt in calling that a stupid thing to say, but frankly, I'm f**ked off at constantly seeing these lies paraded as intelligent facts by people on the Right, while they turn a blind eye to the utter disaster of Right wing economics over the past 40 years .
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https://fullfact.org/economy/unemployment-under-Labour/
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Back to the issue of objective truth and people who ignore it.
We know the Tories are prepared to doctor evidence to make it appear respected organisations are supporting them.
But the LDs are past masters at this.
Look at this campaign leaflet.
https://mobile.twitter.com/GuardianHeather/status/1191820920555487232
That looks like SkyNews and The Guardian have both been quoted as saying that the LDs are winning, right?
Err...except those words actually came from the mouth of Jo Swinson. Sky News and The Guardian just reported what she had said.
The LDs have been doing this for years. In the 2010 election, I got a leaflet in bright red colours, designed just like a Labour one, with Labour banners all I er it, full of stories criticising Labour policies. At the very bottom, in tiny font it said "Published by the Liberal Democrats".
It is appallingly untruthful. Designed to deceive.
I'll say again. Find me an example of Labour doing this.
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WingCo.
Ok. I'll accept that there may have been fractionally higher unemployment when Labour left power than when they started. The ONS figures say differently, but I'll accept yours.
That doesn't change the real point. About what happened in between. Compared to what had happened over the previous 18 years when the Tories were in power.
(https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/the_unemployment_rate_xFs9nHu.png)
Just going on your comment, Lab 97-10 were a failure when measured on unemployment. Do you reckon that graph says that?
It's like having a manager who wins the league every year for 11 years, then in the last 2 he finishes 10thand gets sacked. Was he a failure?
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Well I've had one yesterday where the my local labour party posted a election leaflet hammering our local Tory Mp Andrew Percy again not much on themselves.Percy produces a leaflet every quarter which keeps constituents informed what he has been doing on constituency issues.One of the headlines on their campaign leaflet was that he was wasting public funds producing it.
Percy has responded by saying the money to pay for that comes from funds specifically raised by the local party and not public money..You could argue that was untruthful and designed to deceive.
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WingCo
That's claim and counterclaim. In the absence of published accounts from Percy, it's impossible to establish who is correct.
The ones I'm talking about are examples of where the truth is established and in the public domain. And the Tories and LDs have deliberately and unequivocally deceived the public about those facts.
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Any chance you could scan and upload that Labour leaflet by the way? If there's an example of Labour deliberately and egregiously deceiving, I want to see that too. This goes beyond party allegiance.
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haha I will check the bin when I get home Billy but I think it was covered in last nights dismal attempt at cooking spag boll...lol
But I accept your point on publishing false information whats in the public domain and I accept that both the Tory's and Libs are the most guilty.Reality is that in most cases the average man on the street reads these things and just takes them as fact and has no real interest in checking them..Thats why they do it..it's wrong,regardless of what you end up choosing as your opinion it should be made on facts not lies..
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100% agreed Wing Co.
What scares me more than anything about modern politics is that arguable lying has been normalised.
Politics has always involved putting the best gloss on your side and over emphasising the negatives of the other side.
But that is different from lying.
Politicians didn't used to engage in outright lies. Being caught on that used to mean instant dismissal.
But that's all changed rapidly over recent years. Now outright lying is being seen as normal. And that is desperately dangerous, because it means discussion and decisions cannot be based on sensible analysis. You look round for a "fact" to support your case (hands up. I seem to have done that in the unemployment numbers and if you make that mistake, it's important to accept that you're wrong and accept the actual facts.)
I don't care which party a politician supports. If they lie and deceive egregiously, they need calling out. Again and again. But as you say, it does seem to be coming more from the Tories and the LDs (and from Farage, obviously ..he's been doing it for years) than from Labour or the SNP or the Greens.
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Firstly, Good points from both WC and bst here.
Rather busy at the moment but I would say that I agree substantially with wc's stance on this election. As yet I'm still.unsure who to vote for or if at all....
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/conservatives-and-labour-make-ground-brexit-party-still-top-doncaster-general-election-poll-828583?utm_campaign=Doncaster%20Free%20Press%20-%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=79047745&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--rm92gu7J2t8QwMx1kX1GqwmtX5IYDjy1UJC-DM4ZtjVnlFZaszmRDsgqWAQT9ynlSvHNx3OPfjGg3s8WJpaa7m9sZtA&_hsmi=79047745
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/conservatives-and-labour-make-ground-brexit-party-still-top-doncaster-general-election-poll-828583?utm_campaign=Doncaster%20Free%20Press%20-%20Daily%20Newsletter&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=79047745&_hsenc=p2ANqtz--rm92gu7J2t8QwMx1kX1GqwmtX5IYDjy1UJC-DM4ZtjVnlFZaszmRDsgqWAQT9ynlSvHNx3OPfjGg3s8WJpaa7m9sZtA&_hsmi=79047745
Very interesting BB but I will be amazed if Labour fail to win in Donny.
I would love one of the other two quoted to win though just to knock Labour off their perch.
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Unlikely, if they do tory majority will be huge. These polls are also far too simple.
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Also interesting that the DFP poll is significantly different to the vsc poll.
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Lads, lads, lads.
That DFP poll is meaningless. You don't do polling by opening a website and inviting folk to press a button and then adding all the votes up.
You choose a representative cross section of society.
Right proportion of men and women
Old and young
Professional, manual and unemployed
Sun readers and Guardian readers.
Remain supporters and people who are impervious to reasoned argument.
That DFP poll is only going to be representative of DFP readers, and since they are (probably) garrulous Donny male pensioners, it's no wonder that the Brexit Party is in the lead.
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Lads, lads, lads.
That DFP poll is meaningless. You don't do polling by opening a website and inviting folk to press a button and then adding all the votes up.
You choose a representative cross section of society.
Right proportion of men and women
Old and young
Professional, manual and unemployed
Sun readers and Guardian readers.
Remain supporters and people who are impervious to reasoned argument.
That DFP poll is only going to be representative of DFP readers, and since they are (probably) garrulous Donny male pensioners, it's no wonder that the Brexit Party is in the lead.
Just curious here, but why should the people polled be male pensioners?
We have no idea about who has taken part.
As for asking people to press a button on a website, isn’t that what the vsc poll is doing?
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Get ready for plenty more of this if the Tories get up.
''America needs to seriously tax the rich – I should know, I'm one of them''
''Thanks to Trump and his 2017 tax bill, income inequality has now reached its highest level since the US Census Bureau first began to tabulate it 50 years ago.
As a successful entrepreneur and founder of Men’s Wearhouse, I’ve seen how tax breaks for corporations and the rich perpetuate income inequality.
Last year, the country’s “Gini” index, which measures the nation’s income distribution, reached its highest reading ever. In our modern-day Gilded Age, more of the nation’s wealth is going to fewer people''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/06/america-tax-rich-wealthy-people-patriotic-millionaires
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Hound.
It's black humour mate. Used to be a lot of that in here.
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How can either of the main parties make pledges/policy based on out of date figures? or will they be allowed to see them?
''One other item that was meant to be on the agenda for the day (see 8.58am) was the Office for Budget Responsibility publishing revised borrowing forecasts. Here is the story my colleague Larry Elliott wrote last week about how these were expected to show the public finances in a worse state than when the forecasts were last published in March.
OBR to publish borrowing forecasts despite scrapping of budget
But now the OBR has said it has cancelled plans to publish this document, because the cabinet secretary has decided it would not be compatible with election “purdah” rules (which are meant to stop the civil service making announcements during the election period that could affect the result). This is from Sky’s Ed Conway.''
added
Happy to accept criticism or a better explanation about what this all means.
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Hound.
It's black humour mate. Used to be a lot of that in here.
Fair enough BST, I never considered that.
The political threads, too many of them on here by the way, tend to be very heated at times and not much humour is evident.
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''Topham Guerin: The team that helped Scott Morrison win is now working for Boris Johnson and Brexit
Their alchemy helped consign the Labor Party to another three years in political purgatory. Now the same team of digital gurus are working with Boris Johnson to break the Brexit deadlock.
They are Topham Guerin, or TG, a boutique digital marketing agency from New Zealand headed by Sean Topham and Ben Guerin, two Kiwis still in their 20s.
They run what has been dubbed a 24-hour meme machine — a social media firehose of attention-grabbing, emotion-manipulating, behaviour-nudging messaging designed to corral the faithful and convert the fence-sitters''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-08/topham-guerins-boomer-meme-industrial-complex/11682116
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
Very honest dbr, i suppose you could look over the past 9/10 years and have long think of how the Tories would score out of 10 or 100 with important stuff like wages, tax cuts for the rich, fairness, tax cuts for the rich, Austerity, tax cuts for the rich, sale of Royal Mail to their mates, tax cuts for the rich, social housing, tax cuts for the rich, reduced funding for councils mainly labor held, tax cuts for the rich, Brexit, tax cuts for the rich, spending on infrastructure outside London, tax cuts for the rich, rebuilding the lost traditional industrial areas, tax cuts for the rich, scandals in office, tax cuts for the rich, wasted tax payer money, tax cuts for the rich.
Inveterate liar with his hands on the UK, you get the idea :)
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labor in Oz got caught with their pants down well and truly with fb and social media and following 3 years of winning polls they lost, this really is/was their story unfortunately written by the other side.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-08/topham-guerins-boomer-meme-industrial-complex/11682116
There is a video which is worth watching about the tactics 22 mins in to the end.
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
I agree with absolutely everything you say - especially the last sentence
Desperate to vote Labour myself but I have issues with Flint as well - but I will have to vote tactically for the first time ever. Being a remainer my options are limited so perhaps Lib Dem but that wont dethrone our local queen will it ?
I could never vote for Farage AND where I guess my main difference with your post is that I would never be a Tory voter and a million times NOT a voter for them when led by that duplicitous scheming lying Johnson
Poor old Gordon Brown almost lost his Election with one interview with "that woman" where he said "who foisted her on me - stupid woman" (I have paraphrased that) - and although rude he would have believed what he said
Yet Dodgy Doris has pulled all his tricks (above- and I wont go over them ) AND been caught and called out yet he seems to sail on serenely
Its not a Presedential Election - its all our futures on the line and I for one would NEVER vote for such a person as him
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
I agree with absolutely everything you say - especially the last sentence
Desperate to vote Labour myself but I have issues with Flint as well - but I will have to vote tactically for the first time ever. Being a remainer my options are limited so perhaps Lib Dem but that wont dethrone our local queen will it ?
I could never vote for Farage AND where I guess my main difference with your post is that I would never be a Tory voter and a million times NOT a voter for them when led by that duplicitous scheming lying Johnson
Poor old Gordon Brown almost lost his Election with one interview with "that woman" where he said "who foisted her on me - stupid woman" (I have paraphrased that) - and although rude he would have believed what he said
Yet Dodgy Doris has pulled all his tricks (above- and I wont go over them ) AND been caught and called out yet he seems to sail on serenely
Its not a Presedential Election - its all our futures on the line and I for one would NEVER vote for such a person as him
In Don Valley if you don't want Tories in then your best bet is biting the bullet and going for Flint.
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I find it strange that any left voter would consider punishing labour more than the Tories?
That may mean one is not exclusively a left voter, a swing voter,a centrist?
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I find it strange that any left voter would consider punishing labour more than the Tories?
That may mean one is not exclusively a left voter, a swing voter,a centrist?
I have to agree, holding your nose and voting Labour has to be preferable to giving the Tories five more years. You just can't trust Boris.
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
Very honest dbr, i suppose you could look over the past 9/10 years and have long think of how the Tories would score out of 10 or 100 with important stuff like wages, tax cuts for the rich, fairness, tax cuts for the rich, Austerity, tax cuts for the rich, sale of Royal Mail to their mates, tax cuts for the rich, social housing, tax cuts for the rich, reduced funding for councils mainly labor held, tax cuts for the rich, Brexit, tax cuts for the rich, spending on infrastructure outside London, tax cuts for the rich, rebuilding the lost traditional industrial areas, tax cuts for the rich, scandals in office, tax cuts for the rich, wasted tax payer money, tax cuts for the rich.
Inveterate liar with his hands on the UK, you get the idea :)
You forgot to mention the tax cuts for the rich.! ;)
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
DBR, you do realise that a vote for the Tories is a vote of approval of Johnson's persistent and outright lies, don't you?
If you, and others, can bring yourselves to approve such lying then this country is well and truly screwed. Yes, Corbyn has his faults, but he doesn't outright lie to the public!
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
I agree with absolutely everything you say - especially the last sentence
Desperate to vote Labour myself but I have issues with Flint as well - but I will have to vote tactically for the first time ever. Being a remainer my options are limited so perhaps Lib Dem but that wont dethrone our local queen will it ?
I could never vote for Farage AND where I guess my main difference with your post is that I would never be a Tory voter and a million times NOT a voter for them when led by that duplicitous scheming lying Johnson
Poor old Gordon Brown almost lost his Election with one interview with "that woman" where he said "who foisted her on me - stupid woman" (I have paraphrased that) - and although rude he would have believed what he said
Yet Dodgy Doris has pulled all his tricks (above- and I wont go over them ) AND been caught and called out yet he seems to sail on serenely
Its not a Presedential Election - its all our futures on the line and I for one would NEVER vote for such a person as him
In Don Valley if you don't want Tories in then your best bet is biting the bullet and going for Flint.
As a remainer (or remoaner on here) it is a difficult one for me personally to vote for Ms Flint. I watched her and Jezza in Donny beseeching listeners NOT to vote Leave and yet here we are 3 years on - or more I suppose with her seemingly having changed her mind under the guise of her Constituency voted Leave and she supports that view
Personally I would vote Remain tomorrow if given the chance (I dont seem to match my Consituency profile nor the National "age related" profile)
I will not get that second chance to vote Remain unless we end up in a hung state again in Parliament and the way to that I think is make sure the Tories do not get a majority. That will mean voting tactically (maybe) to ensure they cant win my Seat, which after all that rambling means as you suggest I might have to vote for Flint - through EXTREMELY gritted teeth
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And the latest Mp caught out trying to mislead voters is Anna Soubry.There she was on camera Gleefully talking to Graham who said he voted leave,but would now be voting for her as he was now remain..
Thing is if you are going to make these stage managed video's you must make sure your stool pigeon has all his ducks in a row.And especially make sure he hasn't posted pictures on his twitter account from the referendum were he was actively campaigning for remain..
The only vote I would consider right now is one banning every bloody mp standing again,and a fresh start...
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Why not just throw out those that cheat and lie?
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I'm probably like many across the country agonising over my vote.
Been a Labour voter all my working life but feel totally let down by Corbyn, particularly due to his fence sitting over Brexit. Labour's policy on resolving Brexit is a nonsense.
This election has been called because of the Brexit impass and for that reason, despite my concerns over a range of Conservative policies, Boris is very likely to get my vote. I was considering a tactical vote considering Labour's strong position in Donny but Farage has also f*cked up recently telling some untruths about the detail of the Brexit deal, so I'm hoping Labour get a kicking on this one until such time as they appoint a true leader.
Long term our political system needs a good shake up.
How on earth any previous Labour supporter could vote for Johnson simply beggars belief! Have you actually paid any attention to what he and his cronies are trying to do to this country? I'm no fan of Corbyn but he's Labour leader until he's voted out. Voting for Johnson just to help that aim along is just plain bonkers.
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That logic from Baz. Corbyn wants to leave but has gone along with the party. It's the same as May wanting to stay but going along with the party.
Labours policy on Brexit, to get a deal and then put it to the people is the only one that has any chance of bringing people back together and isn't nonsense.
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I'm not getting into any debate about lies etc as they're all as bad as each other with the twisting of facts and scaremongering. It was only a short time ago they were discussing standards of behaviour but it hasn't taken long for the gloves to be taken off. The depths some MPs go to point score is pathetic.
I think this election will show we have reached an all time low when it comes to standards of behaviour and that's why I believe once this is done we need deep political reform and an end to the pantomime that is the House of Commons. Its a museum piece and with it overflowing it is ever more so confrontational. Let's have a new parliament building fit for purpose together with a new set of behavioral standards and procedures.
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I'm not getting into any debate about lies etc as they're all as bad as each other with the twisting of facts and scaremongering. It was only a short time ago they were discussing standards of behaviour but it hasn't taken long for the gloves to be taken off. The depths some MPs go to point score is pathetic.
I think this election will show we have reached an all time low when it comes to standards of behaviour and that's why I believe once this is done we need deep political reform and an end to the pantomime that is the House of Commons. Its a museum piece and with it overflowing it is ever more so confrontational. Let's have a new parliament building fit for purpose together with a new set of behavioral standards and procedures.
DBR, I have always valued your contributions to debate on here as reasoned and reasonable so I can only take that one statement to be the result of just being worn down by this whole sorry saga. Never thought I would read that from you.
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That logic from Baz. Corbyn wants to leave but has gone along with the party. It's the same as May wanting to stay but going along with the party.
Labours policy on Brexit, to get a deal and then put it to the people is the only one that has any chance of bringing people back together and isn't nonsense.
DO, you and I are on the same page as regards our political (and B****t) leanings but on your last point you're wrong. I agree that the policy would be the one with the best chance of bringing the nation back together but as a policy to win votes in a GE it will be an unmitigated disaster. B****t has been made into an allegiance defining issue and as such will - added to the unpopularity of Corbyn - give Labour an election bloody nose like we have never seen before.
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100% agreed Wing Co.
What scares me more than anything about modern politics is that arguable lying has been normalised.
Politics has always involved putting the best gloss on your side and over emphasising the negatives of the other side.
But that is different from lying.
Politicians didn't used to engage in outright lies. Being caught on that used to mean instant dismissal.
But that's all changed rapidly over recent years. Now outright lying is being seen as normal. And that is desperately dangerous, because it means discussion and decisions cannot be based on sensible analysis. You look round for a "fact" to support your case (hands up. I seem to have done that in the unemployment numbers and if you make that mistake, it's important to accept that you're wrong and accept the actual facts.)
I don't care which party a politician supports. If they lie and deceive egregiously, they need calling out. Again and again. But as you say, it does seem to be coming more from the Tories and the LDs (and from Farage, obviously ..he's been doing it for years) than from Labour or the SNP or the Greens.
Lying has become the new norm because far too many are either too busy, lazy or too daft to do a little fact checking and research.
Look at the photo of Johnson surrounded by crowds, then look at the true picture of them all crammed tightly together in a corner in a desperate attempt to make him seem far more popular than he is.
It really does frustrate me.
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How is the tactical voting going in Doncaster? Torie or Brexit party to keep labour out? Looks like as it stands the 2 together will have more votes than labour but split
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I'm not getting into any debate about lies etc as they're all as bad as each other with the twisting of facts and scaremongering. It was only a short time ago they were discussing standards of behaviour but it hasn't taken long for the gloves to be taken off. The depths some MPs go to point score is pathetic.
I think this election will show we have reached an all time low when it comes to standards of behaviour and that's why I believe once this is done we need deep political reform and an end to the pantomime that is the House of Commons. Its a museum piece and with it overflowing it is ever more so confrontational. Let's have a new parliament building fit for purpose together with a new set of behavioral standards and procedures.
DBR, I have always valued your contributions to debate on here as reasoned and reasonable so I can only take that one statement to be the result of just being worn down by this whole sorry saga. Never thought I would read that from you.
I agree with DBR on the point of them all being the same and the twisting of facts.
The lot of them are in it for themselves.
We won’t be the only two people who think along those lines either.
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I'm not getting into any debate about lies etc as they're all as bad as each other with the twisting of facts and scaremongering. It was only a short time ago they were discussing standards of behaviour but it hasn't taken long for the gloves to be taken off. The depths some MPs go to point score is pathetic.
I think this election will show we have reached an all time low when it comes to standards of behaviour and that's why I believe once this is done we need deep political reform and an end to the pantomime that is the House of Commons. Its a museum piece and with it overflowing it is ever more so confrontational. Let's have a new parliament building fit for purpose together with a new set of behavioral standards and procedures.
DBR, I have always valued your contributions to debate on here as reasoned and reasonable so I can only take that one statement to be the result of just being worn down by this whole sorry saga. Never thought I would read that from you.
I agree with DBR on the point of them all being the same and the twisting of facts.
The lot of them are in it for themselves.
We won’t be the only two people who think along those lines either.
And you won't be the only two who would be wrong.
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I'm not getting into any debate about lies etc as they're all as bad as each other with the twisting of facts and scaremongering. It was only a short time ago they were discussing standards of behaviour but it hasn't taken long for the gloves to be taken off. The depths some MPs go to point score is pathetic.
I think this election will show we have reached an all time low when it comes to standards of behaviour and that's why I believe once this is done we need deep political reform and an end to the pantomime that is the House of Commons. Its a museum piece and with it overflowing it is ever more so confrontational. Let's have a new parliament building fit for purpose together with a new set of behavioral standards and procedures.
DBR, I have always valued your contributions to debate on here as reasoned and reasonable so I can only take that one statement to be the result of just being worn down by this whole sorry saga. Never thought I would read that from you.
I agree with DBR on the point of them all being the same and the twisting of facts.
The lot of them are in it for themselves.
We won’t be the only two people who think along those lines either.
And you won't be the only two who would be wrong.
In your opinion of course.
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Johnson on his own would have told more lies throughout his career than the whole of parliament put together and they have been more damaging too. If you or anyone needs an excuse to support the Tory's then use the tired old excuse that they're all the same but it doesn't really wash does it.
That what the Tories have done through the media is harp on about the mistakes of labour and this is the result.
My post about how they have inundated the media with constant messages to crowd out common sense seems to have worked
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I'm not getting into any debate about lies etc as they're all as bad as each other with the twisting of facts and scaremongering. It was only a short time ago they were discussing standards of behaviour but it hasn't taken long for the gloves to be taken off. The depths some MPs go to point score is pathetic.
I think this election will show we have reached an all time low when it comes to standards of behaviour and that's why I believe once this is done we need deep political reform and an end to the pantomime that is the House of Commons. Its a museum piece and with it overflowing it is ever more so confrontational. Let's have a new parliament building fit for purpose together with a new set of behavioral standards and procedures.
DBR, I have always valued your contributions to debate on here as reasoned and reasonable so I can only take that one statement to be the result of just being worn down by this whole sorry saga. Never thought I would read that from you.
I agree with DBR on the point of them all being the same and the twisting of facts.
The lot of them are in it for themselves.
We won’t be the only two people who think along those lines either.
And you won't be the only two who would be wrong.
In your opinion of course.
Nope, fact. That's why a number of them have put their jobs at risk by voting for what they believe is best for their electorate and the country as a whole, against the way their electorate voted in the referendum.
Also, some politicians do not twist facts, some politicians do not tell lies and some politicians did not 'fiddle their expenses'. They are most certainly not 'all the same'.
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Here's another list of the outright lies that Boris Johnson has told....
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
And people honestly think he's a better bet than Jeremy Corbyn?
Ye gods and little fishes, what does this guy have to do before people will see sense?
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Johnson on his own would have told more lies throughout his career than the whole of parliament put together and they have been more damaging too. If you or anyone needs an excuse to support the Tory's then use the tired old excuse that they're all the same but it doesn't really wash does it.
That what the Tories have done through the media is harp on about the mistakes of labour and this is the result.
My post about how they have inundated the media with constant messages to crowd out common sense seems to have worked
I haven’t said who I will vote for Sydney, if indeed I bother to vote at all, so I really don’t need the lecture from you thank you.
I would be interested to know if you could back up that first sentence too, about the numbers of lies told by BJ.
I don’t think you can.
You bang on about the Torys being bad but never tell us what the Labour people will do better if they ever win an election.
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Your opinion of course
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Your opinion of course
Along with others ......... of course. 👍
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Lied and sacked
lied and cheated in many if not all of his relationships
lied about Brexit
lied about leaving
Cabinet meeting this week lied to them and broadcast it to the nation.
Inverate liar
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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/top-jeremy-corbyn-aide-resigns-20141185.amp This is what you could vote for instead
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https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/11/why-i-warned-non-jews-about-jeremy-corbyn-front-page-jewish-chronicle Or this nice party might be a good vote
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You could at least give us some insights about the articles you posted BP whether you believe part or all of them, whether you in fact have read them, what they say that resonates with the debate what doesn't? or not
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I have read them and as 1 is from a labour supporting paper it’s probably right, the article says it all Sydney if you want to vote for a party like that’s your choice, lies lies and more
Lies
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I have read them and as 1 is from a labour supporting paper it’s probably right, the article says it all Sydney if you want to vote for a party like that’s your choice, lies lies and more
Lies
top summation thanks BP :)
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Not being funny Sydney you put he has lied in some if not all his relationships, how do you know that? And what does that matter?
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Not being funny Sydney you put he has lied in some if not all his relationships, how do you know that? And what does that matter?
here you go bp and a right wing rag to boot, not that you should believe all you read in the papers but all this has been widely reported across all the media in the UK and around the world & Johnson to my knowledge has not denied it nor sued for libel. If you don't think a person's personal reputation matters when in comes to being pm that's fine, does that mean you would be happy to have that reputation yourself? Everyone makes a mistake, maybe even a couple but johnson has a long long history of deception being more than reckless with the truth in his personal life and his 'professional' life and he's not very good
at separating the two. On top of that he has a habit of backing loser projects that waste public money.
BONKING BORIS All of Boris Johnson’s women – a rundown of the affairs, flings and love-children left in the former Foreign Secretary’s wake
It has long been the subject of dinner party gossip for friends of the prominent Tory — just how on earth does he do it?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7198455/all-of-boris-johnsons-women-a-rundown-of-the-affairs-flings-and-love-children-left-in-the-former-foreign-secretarys-wake/
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borisjohnsonlies.com: The lies, falsehoods and misrepresentations of Boris Johnson and his government - by a Daily Mail and former Daily Telegraph journalist
Chosen randomly from the list:
They [the Labour Party] point their fingers at individuals with a relish and a vindictiveness not seen since Stalin persecuted the kulaks - headline article in the Daily Telegraph to launch the Tory election campaign
Verdict
Boris Johnson has made a false and shameful analogy.
Jeremy Corbyn has not threatened anyone with imprisonment, starvation or execution. At most, he intends to reduce Britain’s billionaires to the status of multi-millionaires by taxation.
To compare this to the persecution of the kulaks is to trash history and language. It is an insult to all of Stalin’s victims.
Johnson’s inflammatory falsehood was emblazoned in large bold type over the front page of The Daily Telegraph. This is one of many examples of the media’s complicity in amplifying Johnson’s lies and falsehoods.
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
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Not being funny Sydney you put he has lied in some if not all his relationships, how do you know that? And what does that matter?
here you go bp and a right wing rag to boot, not that you should believe all you read in the papers but all this has been widely reported across all the media in the UK and around the world & Johnson to my knowledge has not denied it nor sued for libel. If you don't think a person's personal reputation matters when in comes to being pm that's fine, does that mean you would be happy to have that reputation yourself? Everyone makes a mistake, maybe even a couple but johnson has a long long history of deception being more than reckless with the truth in his personal life and his 'professional' life and he's not very good
at separating the two. On top of that he has a habit of backing loser projects that waste public money.
BONKING BORIS All of Boris Johnson’s women – a rundown of the affairs, flings and love-children left in the former Foreign Secretary’s wake
It has long been the subject of dinner party gossip for friends of the prominent Tory — just how on earth does he do it?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7198455/all-of-boris-johnsons-women-a-rundown-of-the-affairs-flings-and-love-children-left-in-the-former-foreign-secretarys-wake/
i hate using the sun but as you have
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10294039/corbyn-ira-gunman-support-free/amp/
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Johnson on his own would have told more lies throughout his career than the whole of parliament put together and they have been more damaging too. If you or anyone needs an excuse to support the Tory's then use the tired old excuse that they're all the same but it doesn't really wash does it.
That what the Tories have done through the media is harp on about the mistakes of labour and this is the result.
My post about how they have inundated the media with constant messages to crowd out common sense seems to have worked
I haven’t said who I will vote for Sydney, if indeed I bother to vote at all, so I really don’t need the lecture from you thank you.
I would be interested to know if you could back up that first sentence too, about the numbers of lies told by BJ.
I don’t think you can.
You bang on about the Torys being bad but never tell us what the Labour people will do better if they ever win an election.
There you go Hound have a read of the two posts preceeding this one, enjoy :)
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As you said yourself, you shouldn’t believe all that you read in the papers.
Oh, and I notice that you still haven’t told anyone what you think the Labour people will do that is better than what we are getting now.
Facts will do.
I am still waiting to be convinced about who to vote for so now is your big chance.
You do appear to be desperate to convince everyone to vote Labour.
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As you said yourself, you shouldn’t believe all that you read in the papers.
Oh, and I notice that you still haven’t told anyone what you think the a Labour people will do that is better than what we are getting now.
Facts will do.
I am still waiting to be convinced about who to vote for so now is your big chance.
You do appear to be desperate to convince everyone to vote Labour.
There is a lot of info on labour policy and there was more supplied at their launch and it's under the thread labour policy surprisingly.
If you are not affected are have not been affected by how the tory's have run the economy or read anything by leading economists or bst's substative posts then I can't really help you and I'm not being smart but it has been widely reported for the last 9/10 years and I really give you anything more than what's out there, if you choose to ignore these expert commentaries from economists that's fine. If you trust Johnson not to take every opportunity to take the UK out with no deal that's also your prerogative.
Voting non conservative and selecting an option that would get these bloated Tories out of office is the best best solution to the last 10 years.
My posts are mainly provoke debate and understand why people vote the way they do and their understanding of their politics and me learning more. Those that make general unsupported statement and I often find them to be incorrect, some don't appear to like that I point it out, but that's what debate is all about, defining the argument and finding the truth hopefully for better outcomes. When I make a mistake I like to apologies learn and move on. Some like to twist the debate just it appears to have an argument, that's why I don't post a lot in the football forum.
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With respect Sydney, if there were enough Tory supporters on this forum, (highly unlikely in Doncaster) then I am sure that they would create a very different picture than the one that you,BST,GW and the other staunch Labourites so eloquently paint.
I have often said on here that I have no political loyalty but I know enough to understand that Tory people could post stuff to back up their argument that they are better for the UK than their opponents.
In reality there are only two people who could be PM after the GE in December and it is my view that Corbyn is the one that many people don’t want to be that man.
Even top Labour MPs don’t want him to be PM.
As for believing what the economists say, well there will be other economists who tell us the complete opposite.
It is a bit like one group telling us how good Brexit will be for us while the remain side tell us why we should stay in the EU.
Who do I believe?
You have clearly nailed your colours to the Labour mast and whatever anyone says will not change your mind.
A Tory supporter will clearly do the same with his side.
To use a football analogy it is a bit like a Leeds fans trying to get a Rovers fan to switch their allegiance.
I genuinely don’t know whether Brexit will be good or bad for us and I suspect that most UK citizens don’t know either.
I don’t know who I will vote for in the GE but in Doncaster my vote won’t count for anything except that if I vote a Labour then they will win by one more vote.
If I vote for someone else then Labour will still win, but by one less vote.
Going back to Corbyn or Johnson for PM, well even people like BST are telling us that Labour can’t win with Corbyn in charge.
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Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.
You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.
As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion :)
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Some people will vote Labour in the name of socialism even when it's as right-wing as a Tory party, as it was under Blair. Not being one I might be way off the mark here, but shouldn't real socialists have voted for Arthur Scargill's Socialist Party back in 1996?
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Point of fact Hound.
I'm NOT saying Corbyn can't win. I'm saying I don't think he will. But I've been wrong many times before.
What I said was that if the people who now own the Labour party want to paint people like me as an enemy, THEN Labour will never win. That I am utterly certain of.
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BB
By saying that Blair's Labour party was as right wing as a Tory party, you've just lost the right to take part in a grown up debate. On the NHS and school funding, minimum wage, Section 28, Child Trust Funds, lifting of 600,000 kids out of poverty, cancelling third world debt or banning fox hunting, there were dozens of Blair Labour policies that no Tory Govt of the day would have contemplated. You don't have to like or agree with them to see that.
It's idle just to trot out the line you used (although, granted, you DO often hear it from the Far Left - you're in surprising company there.)
For the record, I didn't like Blair's positioning of the Labour party and I left the party because of him. But I still voted for his party. Because that was the pragmatic choice.
My pragmatism says that an electable party that is 50% of what I want is infinitely preferable to an unelectable one that represents my opinions 90%. I truly don't understand anyone who doesn't get that.
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Well Margaret Thatcher did say that Tony Blair was her greatest achievement.
I would agree with BB in that Blair's New Labour was comparable with the Tories of Macmillan and Heath, so it that way they were right-wing.
Of course back then the right wing were fairly moderate by todays standards. Under Duncan-Smith, Cameron, May and typified by the leadership of Johnson they appear to have Franco, Mussolini and Gengis Khan in their sights.
Blair was Thatcher's greatest achievement. Johnson expelled Thatcher's policy advisor, her Health Secretary and Winston Churchill's grandson from the Tory party.
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Margaret Thatcher said a lot of idiotic, unsupportable things.
Very telling that the Far Left regularly ignore the substance of arguments like the one I've put forward and put forward Thatcher as the ultimate arbiter on this point. They trot out that one comment when they wouldn't quote Thatcher on anything else. Pathetic, to be frank.
So McMillan's Govt would have supported civil partnerships would it? It would have increased the proportion of GDP spent on NHS funding by 50% would it?
Idiotic, bone idle comparison.
And that's not even the most stupid, facile aspect of this argument. The bigger one is WHY Blair existed. He was a reaction to the unelectable shambles that The Left had made of the Labour party 15 years earlier.
I thought Blair was far too far to the Right. But I understand why he came about. And having Blair in power was infinitely preferable to having Foot lose by 140 seats.
Try to get ANYONE on the far left to address that point.
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Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.
You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.
As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion :)
Sydney, I know you won’t like this but I will correct you because you are wrong.
I am not saying anything of the sort.
As for your final sentence, about Brexit, I guess that I will be in good company by not knowing what is best for the UK.
There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite.
How do we know who is right.
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So if most UK citizens don’t know if Brexit will be good or bad for the country, why the hell would a small majority of those who voted, vote to leave.?
I can’t say all of them, as “all” is too definitive, but most things I have seen said and reported by economists and industries have said Brexit, especially no deal, would be bad for the country.
We all know many politicians lie or at least twist things to paint them better or their opponents worse, and the media exaggerates the same, and people who don’t look deeper are taken in and that reflects at the polling booth.
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I suspect a lot of people voted to leave because they felt they had little to lose and everything to gain.
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Well yes BB.
That was the line that the Leave campaign pumped out.
Thing is, people who get seduced by the line that they have nothing to lose are often surprised how much ends up getting taken from them.
Godwin's Law, I know, but You Know Who came to power on precisely that ticket, with the German people thinking they had nothing to lose after years of Austerity-driven economic slump. They ended up learning just how much more could be taken away from them over the next 12 years.
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Perhaps BB but my point, perhaps overly simplistic, is that there was so much uncertainty how would folks know what they were really voting for.?
As for this GE, it’s the same.. we’ve got a huge amount of people in this country who are probably more centre-ist politically than anything else and don’t get extreme wings in either direction.
You’ve got the two main leaders where both have terrible public personas for differing reasons.
Regardless of party policies and manifestos, I suspect many people will vote in the GE as if it’s a presidential election between Johnson and Corbyn.
This really is a prime example of Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich.!
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Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.
You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.
As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion :)
Sydney, I know you won’t like this but I will correct you because you are wrong.
I am not saying anything of the sort.
As for your final sentence, about Brexit, I guess that I will be in good company by not knowing what is best for the UK.
There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite.
How do we know who is right.
Hound, I'm not really concerned with likes or dislikes but trying to drill down into commonsense and trotting out that there are economists saying that Brexit is good is likely true but the overwhelming view of economists is that it's not good, and business leaders agree.
You don't need to be an expert commonsense also tells you that if you reduce your market and put impediments in the way of trade it both cost you money and trade, please go ahead and explain how a business any business will run better with less customers, I'm only guessing here but I'm thinking you have never run a business of your own.
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I suspect a lot of people voted to leave because they felt they had little to lose and everything to gain.
so it's probably good that everyone is not as perverse as yourself bb
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Idiotic, bone idle comparison.
About as idiotic and bone idle as someone believing that people who want: government investment in infrastructure, a publicly run and funded health service, railways and utilities being run for the nation, a decent old age pension, strong union rights - or the policies of Clement Atlee - are 'Far Left'.
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Wilts.
I agree with all of those policies and more. That's not what this part of the discussion is about.
I use the term Far Left to describe an attitude that demands ideological purity and despises compromise. The sort of people who tell me I'm a Blairite social democrat. I've dealt with people like that for most of my adult life. They are well meaning, but ultimately very damaging to the Labour party and the interests of the people the Labour party should represent.
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Correct me if I'm wrong Hound but you seem to be saying the only reason that the tories appear not to have f**ked the economy over the last 9 or 10 years is that there are not enough people on the forum to say otherwise.
You can judge my colors all you like but until I tell you you don't know.
As far as Brexit is concerned with respect to the future of the country if you don't understand then you haven't really tried, in my opinion :)
Sydney, I know you won’t like this but I will correct you because you are wrong.
I am not saying anything of the sort.
As for your final sentence, about Brexit, I guess that I will be in good company by not knowing what is best for the UK.
There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite.
How do we know who is right.
Hound, I'm not really concerned with likes or dislikes but trying to drill down into commonsense and trotting out that there are economists saying that Brexit is good is likely true but the overwhelming view of economists is that it's not good, and business leaders agree.
You don't need to be an expert commonsense also tells you that if you reduce your market and put impediments in the way of trade it both cost you money and trade, please go ahead and explain how a business any business will run better with less customers, I'm only guessing here but I'm thinking you have never run a business of your own.
Again Sydney, sorry to tell you, but you are wrong again.
I had my own Plumbing Supplies business for many years.
Very successfully too.
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Hound.
I appreciate your skill at running the business. Takes a lot of skill and effort.
One thing though. You're totally wrong when you say "There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite."
The economic field is overwhelmingly of the same opinion on Brexit. One of the most depressing things about the media coverage, is that, in their obsession for "balance" they are compelled to give equal time to both sides, even when the true balance of opinion among experts is massively weighted in one direction.
You will not find any credible, independent economics expert anywhere in the country who thinks Brexit will be anything but very bad for the economy.
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Hound.
I appreciate your skill at running the business. Takes a lot of skill and effort.
One thing though. You're totally wrong when you say "There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite."
The economic field is overwhelmingly of the same opinion on Brexit. One of the most depressing things about the media coverage, is that, in their obsession for "balance" they are compelled to give equal time to both sides, even when the true balance of opinion among experts is massively weighted in one direction.
You will not find any credible, independent economics expert anywhere in the country who thinks Brexit will be anything but very bad for the economy.
Which is why I voted to Remain.
My posts on this subject are not necessarily questions that I would be asking myself, but questions that the general public might be asking.
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Understood.
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Hound.
I appreciate your skill at running the business. Takes a lot of skill and effort.
One thing though. You're totally wrong when you say "There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite."
The economic field is overwhelmingly of the same opinion on Brexit. One of the most depressing things about the media coverage, is that, in their obsession for "balance" they are compelled to give equal time to both sides, even when the true balance of opinion among experts is massively weighted in one direction.
You will not find any credible, independent economics expert anywhere in the country who thinks Brexit will be anything but very bad for the economy.
Which is why I voted to Remain.
My posts on this subject are not necessarily questions that I would be asking myself, but questions that the general public might be asking.
Hound, I've said more or less the same. You're wasting your time, mate. Your messenger stance just leaves you to be shot at!
The keyword here is and always has been 'credible'. If the Remoaners don't agree with someone's opinion they just say they're not credible, so there is no point in offering an alternative opinion.
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BB
Why do you do this?
The reason I say that the only senior economist in the country who supports Brexit (Patrick Minford) is not credible is NOT because I don't agree with him.
It's because he's a maverick who refuses to include concepts that are mainstream in economic research all over the world. Like Gravity effects in trade.
It's because he was the driving force behind Thatcher's insane experiment in 1981, where they cut Govt spending at the depth of a vicious recession and turned a bad recession into a horrific one that put 4million on the dole and killed heavy industry in the North.
The fact that you assume people ignore evidence that doesn't agree with them says everything about YOU I'm afraid.
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As I said Hound it was only a guess and I was wrong now if you could reciprocate and tell me how you could have run your business better with less customers and having a to fill in export/import declarations or whatever and pay for the privilege, thanks in advance :)
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As I said Hound it was only a guess and I was wrong now if you could reciprocate and tell me how you could have run your business better with less customers and having a to fill in export/import declarations or whatever and pay for the privilege, thanks in advance :)
Easy, I didn’t export or import and I could have done better if I had been lucky enough to have avoided some of the non payers that I encountered over the years.
So although my sales figures would have been lower if I had had fewer customers (the bad payers in case you missed that bit) I would have been better off financially.
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Hound.
I appreciate your skill at running the business. Takes a lot of skill and effort.
One thing though. You're totally wrong when you say "There are many of the best brains in the country telling us all one thing then another set telling us the opposite."
The economic field is overwhelmingly of the same opinion on Brexit. One of the most depressing things about the media coverage, is that, in their obsession for "balance" they are compelled to give equal time to both sides, even when the true balance of opinion among experts is massively weighted in one direction.
You will not find any credible, independent economics expert anywhere in the country who thinks Brexit will be anything but very bad for the economy.
Which is why I voted to Remain.
My posts on this subject are not necessarily questions that I would be asking myself, but questions that the general public might be asking.
Hound, I've said more or less the same. You're wasting your time, mate. Your messenger stance just leaves you to be shot at!
The keyword here is and always has been 'credible'. If the Remoaners don't agree with someone's opinion they just say they're not credible, so there is no point in offering an alternative opinion.
The key word is persverse, you can count up on your dick how may credible economists think our economy is going to be better with Brexit, so instead of thinking yourself as a knight in shining armour (not exactly sure what/if you are thinking this through at all) you are in fact a snake oil salesman selling the UK down the river, you are making the economy worse and it of course is happening now, and giving oxygen to Scotland and those in that want to go it alone.
Honouring the vote, democracy, in the past you'd have been jailed or worse for being a traitor, I'm not saying we should go back to those times because we have learnt that constructive criticism is a good thing but Brexit is not good is it, and trotting out 'I or anyone can't know' is just so much horse shit. We have learnt, understood that the voting process was corrupted, we know Brexit will be bad and the country in light of this can change our minds.
You have the right to be wrong and that's why the key word is perverse. :)
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As I said Hound it was only a guess and I was wrong now if you could reciprocate and tell me how you could have run your business better with less customers and having a to fill in export/import declarations or whatever and pay for the privilege, thanks in advance :)
None of the tools and equipment you used was imported or exported ?
Easy, I didn’t export or import and I could have done better if I had been lucky enough to have avoided some of the non payers that I encountered over the years.
So although my sales figures would have been lower if I had had fewer customers (the bad payers in case you missed that bit) I would have been better off financially.
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As I said Hound it was only a guess and I was wrong now if you could reciprocate and tell me how you could have run your business better with less customers and having a to fill in export/import declarations or whatever and pay for the privilege, thanks in advance :)
None of the tools and equipment you used was imported or exported ?
Easy, I didn’t export or import and I could have done better if I had been lucky enough to have avoided some of the non payers that I encountered over the years.
So although my sales figures would have been lower if I had had fewer customers (the bad payers in case you missed that bit) I would have been better off financially.
I didn’t say that did I?
I said that I (me personally) didn’t import or export.
I also wrote my post in the right order and place. 😉
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I'll take that as a yes if you don't mind then Hound :)
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You can take it however you want to, I don’t care really.
I answered your questions honestly and you can interpret it however you like.
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You can take it however you want to, I don’t care really.
I answered your questions honestly and you can interpret it however you like.
It's not an interpretation it's facts Hound, some of the tools and equipment (and stock) you used were likely imported and exported therefore if you were running your business under Brexit especially No-Deal your business would affected.
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You can take it however you want to, I don’t care really.
I answered your questions honestly and you can interpret it however you like.
It's not an interpretation it's facts Hound, some of the tools and equipment (and stock) you used were likely imported and exported therefore if you were running your business under Brexit especially No-Deal your business would affected.
You say that as if I don’t know.
Really?
Lots of the products we sold came in from abroad, much of it from China in actual fact.
Have you not noticed that I am against Brexit and in particular (if Brexit does happen) a no deal Brexit.
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You can take it however you want to, I don’t care really.
I answered your questions honestly and you can interpret it however you like.
It's not an interpretation it's facts Hound, some of the tools and equipment (and stock) you used were likely imported and exported therefore if you were running your business under Brexit especially No-Deal your business would affected.
You say that as if I don’t know.
Really?
Lots of the products we sold came in from abroad, much of it from China in actual fact.
Have you not noticed that I am against Brexit and in particular (if Brexit does happen) a no deal Brexit.
Hard to tell from your argument what you believe Hound (not being funny)
''Easy, I didn’t export or import and I could have done better if I had been lucky enough to have avoided some of the non payers that I encountered over the years
So although my sales figures would have been lower if I had had fewer customers (the bad payers in case you missed that bit) I would have been better off financially''
''You say that as if I don’t know.
Really?''
You appear to have missed the bit that even if you did neither your business would still be affected.
But the debate appears to have reached some sort of conclusion, you don't support Brexit and a business that uses imported-exported products will be affected. :)
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You can take it however you want to, I don’t care really.
I answered your questions honestly and you can interpret it however you like.
It's not an interpretation it's facts Hound, some of the tools and equipment (and stock) you used were likely imported and exported therefore if you were running your business under Brexit especially No-Deal your business would affected.
You say that as if I don’t know.
Really?
Lots of the products we sold came in from abroad, much of it from China in actual fact.
Have you not noticed that I am against Brexit and in particular (if Brexit does happen) a no deal Brexit.
Hard to tell from your argument what you believe Hound (not being funny)
''Easy, I didn’t export or import and I could have done better if I had been lucky enough to have avoided some of the non payers that I encountered over the years
So although my sales figures would have been lower if I had had fewer customers (the bad payers in case you missed that bit) I would have been better off financially''
''You say that as if I don’t know.
Really?''
You appear to have missed the bit that even if you did neither your business would still be affected.
But the debate appears to have reached some sort of conclusion, you don't support Brexit and a business that uses imported-exported products will be affected. :)
I have always openly said on here that I voted to remain.
As for would the business be affected, well yes it might.
The products from China may not be, in fact products from such places as the USA,India, Japan and China might come in at an advantageous rate after Brexit but I guess we don’t know until or if it happens.
Time will tell.
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I'll let Glyn if he's around take that one.
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As I said Hound it was only a guess and I was wrong now if you could reciprocate and tell me how you could have run your business better with less customers and having a to fill in export/import declarations or whatever and pay for the privilege, thanks in advance :)
None of the tools and equipment you used was imported or exported ?
Easy, I didn’t export or import and I could have done better if I had been lucky enough to have avoided some of the non payers that I encountered over the years.
So although my sales figures would have been lower if I had had fewer customers (the bad payers in case you missed that bit) I would have been better off financially.
I didn’t say that did I?
I said that I (me personally) didn’t import or export.
I also wrote my post in the right order and place. 😉
You'd have been paying more to those that did to/from the EU though.
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I'll let Glyn if he's around take that one.
I'm generalising but I'd guess most plumbing hardware would be articles of either plastic or metal?
We might get a better arrangement after Brexit, but it's very unlikely. We just don't have the strength to twist their arms on our own. India and China are GSP countries anyway and we've all seen what weirdness Trump has pulled when it comes to protectionism regarding imports of metal.
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Britain now has baby foodbanks.
That's foodbanks to provide nappies, wipes & baby food because parents are unable to afford to provide for their babies in Tory Britain - the 6th richest nation on earth.
If you don't want to get the Tories out, YOU are the reason babies are hungry.
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The shocking thing about this is it's not shocking. It is what's to be expected from some of the lefties. Can all normal people now see why many, many people would not touch the Labour party with a barge pole?
See, I'd find it hard, nay impossible to be on the same side as someone with your view. I wonder if your fellow lefties feel ever so slightly embarrassed by it?
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Britain now has baby foodbanks.
That's foodbanks to provide nappies, wipes & baby food because parents are unable to afford to provide for their babies in Tory Britain - the 6th richest nation on earth.
If you don't want to get the Tories out, YOU are the reason babies are hungry.
What about a Tory voter who donates to baby food banks?
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Hound.
That's always a sticking plaster. The fact that we need them in 21st century Britain is shameful. Utterly shameful.
It's great that people donate when there's a need. But it's awful that we've just shrugged our shoulders at the fact that the need exists.
It doesn't have to be like that.
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Hound.
That's always a sticking plaster. The fact that we need them in 21st century Britain is shameful. Utterly shameful.
It's great that people donate when there's a need. But it's awful that we've just shrugged our shoulders at the fact that the need exists.
It doesn't have to be like that.
You do know that my post was tongue in cheek BST, you do............don’t you......
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I did with hindsight Hound! I get too wound up on these things...
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The shocking thing about this is it's not shocking. It is what's to be expected from some of the lefties. Can all normal people now see why many, many people would not touch the Labour party with a barge pole?
See, I'd find it hard, nay impossible to be on the same side as someone with your view. I wonder if your fellow lefties feel ever so slightly embarrassed by it?
Not half as embarrassing as being an apologist for the selfish greedy tw#ts that perpetuate it, aye bb
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I was actually addressing normal people, Sydney.
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At what time will you be giving the next in your series of almost daily talks on 'principles' bb, the gist of the last one is fading somewhat and I probably need reassurances from your good self that I've understood how it works, is it principles that apply to all or just those with differing views to ones self?
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Some thoughts for anyone considering not voting for any reason for any party.
''I grew up in Stalinist Albania, where voting was pointless. In Britain, it’s essential
Lea Ypi
Election day is the one day when all citizens have equal power. It’s your duty to use it on behalf of those who cannot vote''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/11/stalinist-albania-voting-britain-election-migrants
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Agree to a degree but I dont think all citizens DO have equal power
Greens polled 525664 votes nationwide in 2017 and got 1 seat
Lib Dems polled 2,371,861 votes nationwide in 2017 and got 12 seats (12 times more for under 5 times more votes)
SNP polled 977,568 votes in 2017 and got 35 seats (35 times the Greens from under twice the number of votes AND 3 times the seats won by Lib Dems with Lib Dems polling twice as many votes for a third as many seats)
First past the Post should GO and be replaced by something more representative
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I don't disagree, but I think the stress of the article is about getting out and voting DW
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True
What worries me is IF Johnson wins a majority he / they will know PR calls are rising and rising and I fear he / they will put a stop to that momentum
I was thinking they could rubber stamp FPTP system for say 50 years and effectively kill it off - however ...
.... I dont know how the system works Parliament wise though so they may not be able to do it. (Hope not)
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This is what post-truth era media looks like.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1193841182260027393
The Express showing its contempt for its readers. The economy is in dire shape. After a shockingly bad decade of growth, we're currently growing at the worst rate in that decade. The Express tells its readers that we are booming.
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This is what post-truth era media looks like.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TomKibasi/status/1193841182260027393
The Express showing its contempt for its readers. The economy is in dire shape. After a shockingly bad decade of growth, we're currently growing at the worst rate in that decade. The Express tells its readers that we are booming.
I have every confidence that the express is on par with the mail in the race to produce the most unintelligible rubbish, fake news champions.
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The Express is far worse horrific paper.
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https://twitter.com/evolvepolitics/status/1193226353635659776?s=19 (https://twitter.com/evolvepolitics/status/1193226353635659776?s=19)
A couple month old now but this is the Express.
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Also, looks like we're in the loony territory again where the Labour party are being hounded whether they'd use Trident to kill millions of civilians and when they say no they're seen as bad people.
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The shocking thing about this is it's not shocking. It is what's to be expected from some of the lefties. Can all normal people now see why many, many people would not touch the Labour party with a barge pole?
See, I'd find it hard, nay impossible to be on the same side as someone with your view. I wonder if your fellow lefties feel ever so slightly embarrassed by it?
So your decision on which way to vote is more about your perceptions of other voters, ahead of the actual issues or parties you can vote for.?
You made the same point about Brexit I recall..
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Farage just announced the Brexit Party wont stand in Tory held seats but will field candidates against all other opposition party's..What impact will that have do people think?? Great news for Boris not so good for Labour..
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What's this another lie from Farage and Johnson surely not???
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Youd think it's a big help to him.
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No deal here we come. :(
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The Express is far worse horrific paper.
I don't know. The Express comes across as gullible fools, whereas the Mail is nasty on top.
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I know bookies odds don't mean that much but I've been watching them with interest.Labours odds had been shortening to 7/2 and 4-1 as last week went on.That announcement by Farage has just shot them out to between 9-11-1 and the Tory's now 20-1 on in places..
Has Farage just killed Labours election hopes in one press conference..?? Still a long way to go though with many twists and turns to come.
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What's this another lie from Farage and Johnson surely not???
They deserve each other BUT what do we as Voters get out of this / what can we believe
Its ONLY about 4 or 5 days since Farage said unless Johnson scrapped his deal altogether the B****t Party would field a candidate in every seat
Johnson said basically eff off Farage and days later he (Farage) said right thats it - I am going to stand down all Candidates in Tory held Seats to avoid splitting those Votes
Can ANYONE believe ANYTHING any of these people say ? I cant
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What's this another lie from Farage and Johnson surely not???
They deserve each other BUT what do we as Voters get out of this / what can we believe
Its ONLY about 4 or 5 days since Farage said unless Johnson scrapped his deal altogether the B****t Party would field a candidate in every seat
Johnson said basically eff off Farage and days later he (Farage) said right thats it - I am going to stand down all Candidates in Tory held Seats to avoid splitting those Votes
Can ANYONE believe ANYTHING any of these people say ? I cant
They've had a chat behind the scenes and Farage has been promised something even if it's just the transition period not being extended which would increase chances of no deal.
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Don’t think he had a option really going by the polls as Farage was losing votes over it
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I always suspected this was coming,it was far easier for the Tory's to get the brexit party on side than any other Party.Farage has no other interest other than Brexit.He wants it done so he can step away from Political life with his lifetime work achieved.
The Libs are at the polar opposite to that thinking and nobody knows what Labour will campaign and support so it was always going to happen.Labours only hope from here is a hung parliament and the Tory's unable to form alliances to govern allowing Labour to get into bed with Sturgeon by offering her a independence vote..
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Trump's two lap dogs working together.
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Farage has no other interest other than Brexit.He wants it done so he can step away from Political life with his lifetime work achieved.
You ever stop to wonder why this is Farage's interest?
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I get your point Billy but that's not going to have much sway on the Election from here on in.I've just spent a hour reading Social Media especially the Labour official pages and what's become obvious by the Labour voters comments is that even they don't think they can win this election.They are all calling for Labour to join forces with Lib dems and not to stand against each other in tactical seats forming a remain alliance..Labours problem of course is they are not prepared to say wether they would campaign for Leave or remain...Do you think the time has come to back a horse one way or another????
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I reckon they should back a horse NOW and say unequivocally WHAT it is
If they decide they want to Remain they should then convince Lib Dems (with the SNP already on board) to join a similar "pact" as Tories and Farage have just undertaken
Decide which candidates are standing where and hopefully despite Farages skullduggery they will have a Remain alliance and hopefully (for them) it will be enough to be the leading Coalition
They would have to agree beforehand that they would have a 2nd Ref or a Revoke of A50 which would be challenging AND that once they have done what they have to The Green Party (at a time already chosen) would call for a Vote of no confidence in whoever they need to and trigger another GE as I am sure Swinson wont want to support Corbyn for a second longer than she has to
Country before anything else Swinson ? You know what the priority IS
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I get your point Billy but that's not going to have much sway on the Election from here on in.I've just spent a hour reading Social Media especially the Labour official pages and what's become obvious by the Labour voters comments is that even they don't think they can win this election.They are all calling for Labour to join forces with Lib dems and not to stand against each other in tactical seats forming a remain alliance..Labours problem of course is they are not prepared to say wether they would campaign for Leave or remain...Do you think the time has come to back a horse one way or another????
the problem with deciding who to back means they might as well say goodbye to the north of England,they should have decided along time ago rather than wait to see what the best option was
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Labours Brexit policy is pretty much Prince Akeem's arranged bride in Coming to America
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I get your point Billy but that's not going to have much sway on the Election from here on in.I've just spent a hour reading Social Media especially the Labour official pages and what's become obvious by the Labour voters comments is that even they don't think they can win this election.They are all calling for Labour to join forces with Lib dems and not to stand against each other in tactical seats forming a remain alliance..Labours problem of course is they are not prepared to say wether they would campaign for Leave or remain...Do you think the time has come to back a horse one way or another????
WingCo.
I've said for a long, long time that Labour should have come off the fence on this. The fact that they haven't is going to go down as one of the great political miscalculations of recent times.
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Fundamentally wrong Bpool.
People are putting together two facts:
1) Labour holds most seats in the North
2) Most seats in the North voted Leave.
And drawing the conclusion that most Labour voters in the North are Leave supporting.
That is badly wrong, as numerous detailed polls have established. The great majority of Labour voters, even in Leave-voting seats, voted Remain. Labour's massive problem now is that it has f**ked off so many hundreds of thousands (millions even) of those voters.
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The expected swerve from Farage will advantage the Tories in Con/LD marginals in the SW.
It will also mean that remain supporters need to vote Labour UNLESS the LD's are locally a close second last time. There are only 2 or 3 seats where Labour are under threat from the LD.
Farage will continue to place candidates (at the moment) against Johnson in Leave voting seats, creaming off some potential voters.
I don't buy the big boost to Johnson story. It won't help in Scotland, and as written it is no gamechanger in the north.
Labour no longer has the "massive problem" BST believes. It is getting smaller every day, and is weighed against the locality and age distribution impacts.
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Labour no longer has the "massive problem" BST believes. It is getting smaller every day, and is weighed against the locality and age distribution impacts.
Has Corbyn been replaced?
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That's a interesting take on the situation.Why would leave supporters currently vote for Labour,they don't know how Labour will campaign???
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Brill Albie.
All you've got to do now is convince those 3-4 million people who were supporting Labour a year ago, and who are now supporting the LDs and Greens.
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The best way - IMHO - that Labour could win or perhaps prevent the Tories having an absolute majority, is to try and sway the GE decisions away from Brexit..
I think there may be enough folks annoyed with Brexit delays to vote for Johnson to get the job done, regardless of other Tory policies.
Can Labour do that? Are their policies other than Brexit strong enough.?
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Just remember, those of you on here who say you could never vote Tory, but will support Farage.
Today's news makes it clear. A vote for Farage's party IS a vote for the Tories.
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I'll be voting for the Brexit party. Tories should stand down in Donny making it even easier for the Brexit party to win
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I still think Labour will win in Donny mate.
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I'll be voting for the Brexit party. Tories should stand down in Donny making it even easier for the Brexit party to win
You must really like those Brexit Party policies..... Oh wait a minute they don't have any... Farcical!!! Hahaha!!
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And for a leader that won't be standing, literally voting for ............. nothing :facepalm:
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Just remember, voting for Labour is a vote for Jeremy Corbyn.
Vote responsibly!
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No it's voting tactically to ensure labour don't win. You loonies hate it when people don't share your views. Most relevant politician of the last decade. If Nigel Farage wasn't alive we'd still be in the EU.
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We are still in the EU...
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I'm assuming those voting for the Tories and Brexit will be needing this ..........
Rossiya – svyashchennaya nasha derzhava,
Rossiya – lyubimaya nasha strana.
Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava –
Tvoio dostoyanye na vse vremena!
Slav'sya, Otechestvo nashe svobodnoye,
Bratskih narodov soyuz vekovoi,
Predkami dannaya mudrost' narodnaya!
Slav'sya, strana! My gordimsya toboi!
Ot yuzhnyh morei do polyarnogo kraya
Raskinulis' nashi lesa i polya.
Odna ty na svete! Odna ty takaya –
Khranimaya Bogom…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze9J82qfzUo
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It's you looney rights that have everything to apologise for, your precious leaders who's best mate is going to come over and use the NHS as his play thing and help to make the North even poorer...
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Just remember, voting for Labour is a vote for Jeremy Corbyn.
Vote responsibly!
Nice of old Boris to pop up and see all of the people suffering from the Floods in Donny.... Oh wait yeah he hasn't has he cause he couldn't give a Sh1te....
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....And if Boris had come to Donny it would have been a PR opportunity. However, in Jezza's case, it was purely because he gave a shite.
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Not a fan on JC at all... I think without him Labour would absolutely batter the Tories in the GE... However yes I do think he actually gives a shit about people who are in need... Unlike Boris and 90% of the Tory party..
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Not a fan on JC at all... I think without him Labour would absolutely batter the Tories in the GE... However yes I do think he actually gives a shit about people who are in need... Unlike Boris and 90% of the Tory party..
I reckon that all politicians care about nothing but their bank balance
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....And if Boris had come to Donny it would have been a PR opportunity. However, in Jezza's case, it was purely because he gave a shite.
Excuse me sir, did you drop this on another thread?
"Corbyn went to read a poem at his local remembrance service."
PR opportunity?
added, exit bb
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After Farage's statement today, it would be extremely foolish of Boris to stand candidates in Northern seats. I agree with Hound that seemingly nothing could ever stop Labour winning in Donny, but if it was a free run for the BP I think it would be a closely run thing.
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....And if Boris had come to Donny it would have been a PR opportunity. However, in Jezza's case, it was purely because he gave a shite.
Excuse me sir, did you drop this on another thread?
"Corbyn went to read a poem at his local remembrance service."
PR opportunity?
added, exit bb
So?
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Did I ever tell the story about the guy that discovered the meaning of principles? :facepalm:
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I take it it wasn't your autobiography.
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I take it it wasn't your autobiography.
I'll leave that for others to work out
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I take it it wasn't your autobiography.
I'll leave that for others to work out
You should do that more often.
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If it was labour v Brexit party alone Brexit party would win
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Just what we need a bunch of racists/nationalists in charge of Donny...
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Just what we need a bunch of racists/nationalists in charge of Donny...
.......And THAT'S why I could never be on the same side as anybody with such views.
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When you're slapping yourselves on the back over voting for Farage, remember how often he has said he thinks we should have a health system more like the American one.
And then think about what that means for many working people.
https://mobile.twitter.com/samdolnick/status/1192949451482107904
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They don't care BST. As long as we're out of the EU, that's all that matters. F*ck the economy, the union and the NHS.
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
so unless we vote labour were awful people then lol
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
so unless we vote labour were awful people then lol
You said it not me...
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
And it is attitudes like yours that stops people endearing to the Labour party.
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Haha!! If peoples attitudes are why you don't vote for a party than you need to grow up a bit BB.... I vote for a party because of their policies and the way I think they could make a difference in this once great country... I vote for a party that I think will do the best to fulfil the promises it makes and I don't just associate a party with their leader but with the party as a whole.
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
And it is attitudes like yours that stops people endearing to the Labour party.
Are you denying all those have suffered under the Tories (now supported by the BP) BB? Really?
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But don’t forget, a vote for Labour might put Corbyn in number ten.
Even some Labour Party members don’t want that.
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
so unless we vote labour were awful people then lol
You said it not me...
You need to get off your moral high horse. It's people like you, with your condescending attitude, that's putting people off voting Labour.
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Haha!! If peoples attitudes are why you don't vote for a party than you need to grow up a bit BB.... I vote for a party because of their policies and the way I think they could make a difference in this once great country... I vote for a party that I think will do the best to fulfil the promises it makes and I don't just associate a party with their leader but with the party as a whole.
:that:
Someone making a fool of you on a forum shouldn't dictate the way you vote. However,some people are as thick as short planks.
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
so unless we vote labour were awful people then lol
You said it not me...
You need to get off your moral high horse. It's people like you, with your condescending attitude, that's putting people off voting Labour.
It's also people like you that make me hope the youth of today have more brain cells than the ageing bitter voters of the past.
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I'm on my moral high ground because I'm sick of this country being treated as a play thing by the Tory party to make themselves and their friends richer... I'm sick of the NHS being used as a political game rather than the fantastic but heavily underfunded service that it is... I'm sick of seeing the numbers of homeless people increasing by the day.... I'm sick of seeing the increasing number of people needing to use Food Banks to just get through the week.... I'm sick of schools, police forces and the Fire Brigade being severely underfunded...
I'm sick of Brexit getting in the way of the day to day running of the country by a party that for the last 3 and a half years have done nothing about it...
You might not like my attitude, but I'm pretty sure my attitude is not the reason why you won't vote for Labour...
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Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
Read this from one of your own party, you might believe him.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=274124.msg920282#msg920282
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It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
so unless we vote labour were awful people then lol
I wouldn't go that far, but you have to take responsibilty for the effects of the policies and actions of the party you do vote for. And rtid88's list is but a short snapshot of the misery that has been heaped on millions in this country under 9 years of Tory rule.
14 million in poverty. 1.5 million in destitution. The United Nations saying that the UK's social safety net has been "deliberately removed and replaced with a harsh and uncaring ethos" due to "ideological" cuts to public services with "tragic consequences".
Vote for that with a clear conscience if you will.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692
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Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.
-
It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
so unless we vote labour were awful people then lol
I wouldn't go that far, but you have to take responsibilty for the effects of the policies and actions of the party you do vote for. And rtid88's list is but a short snapshot of the misery that has been heaped on millions in this country under 9 years of Tory rule.
14 million in poverty. 1.5 million in destitution. The United Nations saying that the UK's social safety net has been "deliberately removed and replaced with a harsh and uncaring ethos" due to "ideological" cuts to public services with "tragic consequences".
Vote for that with a clear conscience if you will.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48354692
Quoting facts again Wilts you know that doesn't cut it.
-
Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
Read this from one of your own party, you might believe him.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=274124.msg920282#msg920282
ere Marge wots all this abart a ruski report? nothing innit really George just the Tories dressing up for Xmas luv
Rossiya – svyashchennaya nasha derzhava,
Rossiya – lyubimaya nasha strana.
Moguchaya volya, velikaya slava –
Tvoio dostoyanye na vse vremena!
Slav'sya, Otechestvo nashe svobodnoye,
Bratskih narodov soyuz vekovoi,
Predkami dannaya mudrost' narodnaya!
Slav'sya, strana! My gordimsya toboi!
Ot yuzhnyh morei do polyarnogo kraya
Raskinulis' nashi lesa i polya.
Odna ty na svete! Odna ty takaya –
Khranimaya Bogom…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze9J82qfzUo
-
Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.
So you've frequently told us about your great party, despite also frequently pouring scorn on your leader, and then you accuse ME of responding with a whiff of criticism!
You have castigated Jeremy Corbyn more than I have, and now you want me to vote for him!
-
Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.
So you've frequently told us about your great party, despite also frequently pouring scorn on your leader, and then you accuse ME of responding with a whiff of criticism!
You have castigated Jeremy Corbyn more than I have, and now you want me to vote for him!
Don't expect you to do anything but you vote for a party and the parties policies not an individual...
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Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.
So you've frequently told us about your great party, despite also frequently pouring scorn on your leader, and then you accuse ME of responding with a whiff of criticism!
You have castigated Jeremy Corbyn more than I have, and now you want me to vote for him!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfICBxqb2cg
-
It's pretty clear that anyone who votes for the Tory or Brexit party don't give a shiny shite about the NHS, homelessness, people needing food banks, crime figures, schools, the list could go on and on....
so unless we vote labour were awful people then lol
You said it not me...
You need to get off your moral high horse. It's people like you, with your condescending attitude, that's putting people off voting Labour.
It's also people like you that make me hope the youth of today have more brain cells than the ageing bitter voters of the past.
Wey hey, Coco the Clown's back, looking for approval from a few lefties.
Nothing wrong with my brain cells sunshine.
Just keep your eyes on December 12th.
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Because I'm a grown up BB. I accept that life is full of imperfect choices.
Yes I have serious criticisms of Corbyn.
But they pale into insignificance when set aside the lies and deceit of Johnson and Farage.
Yes I have my criticisms of some aspects of Labour policy. But I'm a grown up. I accept that I have to make a decision between imperfect policy slates. And the criticisms I have of Labour's policies are nothing compared to what I think about the Tory and Brexit Party policies.
And, finally, I will always make my choice based on the policies set out, and my opinions on the politicians who set them out. Never on perceived slights from people in an impassioned discussion.
Because I'm a grown up. I hope and trust that everyone is when they go into the polling booth.
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SS.
You're at it again.
You tell us you will never support the Tories. But you're goading people about a date when, most likely, the Tories will win.
Almost like all that matters is other people being upset.
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Because I'm a grown up BB. I accept that life is full of imperfect choices.
Yes I have serious criticisms of Corbyn.
But they pale into insignificance when set aside the lies and deceit of Johnson and Farage.
Yes I have my criticisms of some aspects of Labour policy. But I'm a grown up. I accept that I have to make a decision between imperfect policy slates. And the criticisms I have of Labour's policies are nothing compared to what I think about the Tory and Brexit Party policies.
And, finally, I will always make my choice based on the policies set out, and my opinions on the politicians who set them out. Never on perceived slights from people in an impassioned discussion.
Because I'm a grown up. I hope and trust that everyone is when they go into the polling booth.
Best post on this thread!! Well said BST!!!
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Because I'm a grown up BB. I accept that life is full of imperfect choices.
Yes I have serious criticisms of Corbyn.
But they pale into insignificance when set aside the lies and deceit of Johnson and Farage.
Yes I have my criticisms of some aspects of Labour policy. But I'm a grown up. I accept that I have to make a decision between imperfect policy slates. And the criticisms I have of Labour's policies are nothing compared to what I think about the Tory and Brexit Party policies.
And, finally, I will always make my choice based on the policies set out, and my opinions on the politicians who set them out. Never on perceived slights from people in an impassioned discussion.
Because I'm a grown up. I hope and trust that everyone is when they go into the polling booth.
Well lets hope you've grown up enough to respect other people's views in future then.
By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?
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Not a lot of introspection from the forum right wing of their own parties and leaders, afraid to lift the carpet?
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It depends BB.
If people set out views with reason, and engage in serious discussion, I'll always respect them, whether I agree with them or not.
If they ignore reasoned argument, and are impervious to facts and truth, there's nothing to respect.
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Because I'm a grown up BB. I accept that life is full of imperfect choices.
Yes I have serious criticisms of Corbyn.
But they pale into insignificance when set aside the lies and deceit of Johnson and Farage.
Yes I have my criticisms of some aspects of Labour policy. But I'm a grown up. I accept that I have to make a decision between imperfect policy slates. And the criticisms I have of Labour's policies are nothing compared to what I think about the Tory and Brexit Party policies.
And, finally, I will always make my choice based on the policies set out, and my opinions on the politicians who set them out. Never on perceived slights from people in an impassioned discussion.
Because I'm a grown up. I hope and trust that everyone is when they go into the polling booth.
Well lets hope you've grown up enough to respect other people's views in future then.
By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?
Hasn't Labours policy on Brexit been mentioned numerous times?
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It depends BB.
If people set out views with reason, and engage in serious discussion, I'll always respect them, whether I agree with them or not.
If they ignore reasoned argument, and are impervious to facts and truth, there's nothing to respect.
Once again BST, it is you that's ignoring reasoned argument. Now answer the question man.
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perverse
/pəˈvəːs/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: perverse
1.
showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable.
"Kate's perverse decision not to cooperate held good"
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Not a lot of introspection from the forum right wing of their own parties and leaders, afraid to lift the carpet?
I'm not trying to get you to change your vote, though, I'm just defending the right to vote differently to you without a condescending response.
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perverse
/pəˈvəːs/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: perverse
1.
showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable.
"Kate's perverse decision not to cooperate held good"
Is that your psychiatric report?
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SS.
You're at it again.
You tell us you will never support the Tories. But you're goading people about a date when, most likely, the Tories will win.
Almost like all that matters is other people being upset.
In case you'd not noticed BST, he goaded me first, suggesting I'd no brain cells, something he does quite often on here.
If people attack me, I attack back.
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BST, I think it's time you shuffled your cabinet up.
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perverse
/pəˈvəːs/
Learn to pronounce
adjective
adjective: perverse
1.
showing a deliberate and obstinate desire to behave in a way that is unreasonable or unacceptable.
"Kate's perverse decision not to cooperate held good"
Is that your psychiatric report?
I'm thinking you just owned it :)
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BB.
Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.
Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.
So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.
And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.
It's that simple.
Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.
Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.
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SS.
Yep. It's all getting a bit f**king infantile isn't it?
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I'm narrowing down my options. Issues with a number of labour policies and the leadership. Issues with the tory leadership and some policies. Like Farage for entertainment value but politically cannot stand him. The lib dems are ridiculously too far remain. Green party for too left wing.
Clear as mud eh?
I'll probably study the manifestos some more before deciding.
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With respect bfyp it sounds like your going to ignore the last nine year of chaos and make your choices on what is being said now rather than what was said and done previously?
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BB.
Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.
Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.
So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.
And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.
It's that simple.
Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.
Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.
Yes, but I thought the EU said there was nothing more on the table? And what exactly will Labour's aim be, to leave or to stay?
You see, that's my point. respect for a political party needs to be earned, and they get that by being clear to the electorate what they are actually voting for.
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Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.
So you've frequently told us about your great party, despite also frequently pouring scorn on your leader, and then you accuse ME of responding with a whiff of criticism!
You have castigated Jeremy Corbyn more than I have, and now you want me to vote for him!
Vote for Corbyn and p**s of BST - how can you refuse!!! Get it on the side of a bus immediately...
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And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.
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Then boast about your great party and what they're going to do instead of pouring scorn on the opposition.
We have done. Frequently. You've ignored it. Yet you always respond when there's the whiff of a criticism in the air.
So you've frequently told us about your great party, despite also frequently pouring scorn on your leader, and then you accuse ME of responding with a whiff of criticism!
You have castigated Jeremy Corbyn more than I have, and now you want me to vote for him!
Don't expect you to do anything but you vote for a party and the parties policies not an individual...
But ultimately, if someone votes Labour and Labour win then you are voting to put Corbyn into number ten.
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BB.
1) The EU would fall over themselves to renegotiate the deal that Labour wants. Because it would be far less economically damaging to both the UK and EU than Johnson's deal. And it would make the Irish border question vanish. You can ignore any pronouncements in the topic by Juncker. He's gone now.
2) Why does Labour need to have a policy on whether we would Leave or Remain?
Did the Tories have a policy that everyone signed up to in 2016? Johnson himself had two scripts written, so ambivalent was he.
It's about being grown up.
Grown ups can differ on final decisions. There are those in Labour who would campaign for the deal Corbyn wants. There are those who would campaign against it.
Just like there were Tories elected in 2017 who supported the deal that May negotiated and those who didn't. (Or, in Johnson's case, those who supported it, then didn't support it, then did support it, then said it was an utter betrayal,then negotiated a deal that was 95% identical to it.)
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Hound.
Aye, and if you vote Tory, you are putting a man who has a 30 year track record of self-interested lying into No10.
Like I say, it's an imperfect choice. But life's like that. You're not often given the choice between a lump of dog shit and a gold bar, are you?
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By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?
Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.
(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848
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Hound.
Aye, and if you vote Tory, you are putting a man who has a 30 year track record of self-interested lying into No10.
Like I say, it's an imperfect choice. But life's like that. You're not often given the choice between a lump of dog shit and a gold bar, are you?
I suppose not BST but I might not be making my choice between those two yet.
I was just making a point to rtid88.
It is reality that only one of Johnson or Corbyn will be PM on 13th December.
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By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?
Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.
(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848
Well, you say that Wilts but I think that the Brexiteers might kick off a bit if the outcome was a Remain victory.
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And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.
With respect Sydney, it's hardly a fair debate when you can constantly put up links from any outlet, sometimes including right wing And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.
Yes, but you let the lefty press do your talking by issuing constant lefty orientated links. When the right does the same you dismiss it as not credible because it's a right-wing outlet!
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But why would they Hound?
That would be a decision between a specific, defined Brexit and Remain. Decided by the British people.
The reason we are where we are now is precisely because Brexit WASN'T defined in 2016. And the last three years have been a fight on the Tory side to define it in a the way that they want.
Stand back and tell me that's not true.
And then ask yourself if Labour's policy is less democratic.
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But why would they Hound?
That would be a decision between a specific, defined Brexit and Remain. Decided by the British people.
The reason we are where we are now is precisely because Brexit WASN'T defined in 2016. And the last three years have been a fight on the Tory side to define it in a the way that they want.
Stand back and tell me that's not true.
And then ask yourself if Labour's policy is less democratic.
I am not saying that the Labour policy on this is wrong BST.
In fact, I like it.
However, after three years of reading comments by Brexiteers whingeing about Remainers wanting a second Referendum I think it is fair to suggest what they would say if another vote came out with a remain win.
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BB
The Mail and Sun and Express have a long and established and inglorious record of lying to their readers.
That's not up for debate. It's a fact.
That is why I for one will treat any article from them that purports to set out facts with scorn.
I've told you previously about my own run in with the Mail, on something utterly inconsequential, where they deliberately and systemically misled their readers by choosing to omit key facts in a story. That's their approach. They are not newspapers. They are propaganda sheets.
There is no such track record with the Guardian. Or the Times for that matter.
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By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?
Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.
(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848
Well, you say that Wilts but I think that the Brexiteers might kick off a bit if the outcome was a Remain victory.
They were going to kick off if we didn't leave the EU on 31st March and 31st October. Yesterday they said Johnson's deal was a sell out and wouldn't put up with it if it because it wasn't Brexit - today it is. Seems like Brexiteers are more open to changing their minds than you give them credit for.
And I wouldn't bet against them winning for a 2nd time, the last poll I saw it was 50/50.
But that's Labour's policy, seems perfectly understandable to me don't you think?
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Hound
Then I'd respectfully suggest they stop and think carefully about how and why we got into this position, and how we resolve it with the least damage, rather than see non-existent threats round every corner.
If there is a majority in the country for Leave, Labour's policy would give that majority it's chance to vote for a specific, defined Leave. In fact, Labour's leader would be on their side! Even if he might not admit it.
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By the way, what policy has labour set out for Brexit?
Labour's Brexit policy explained in 30 seconds.
(Spoiler alert - it only takes 12 and is Have a referendum in June 2020 with a viable Leave deal against Remain and whichever wins will be implemented)
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1192452423111118848
Well, you say that Wilts but I think that the Brexiteers might kick off a bit if the outcome was a Remain victory.
They were going to kick off if we didn't leave the EU on 31st March and 31st October. Yesterday they said Johnson's deal was a sell out and wouldn't put up with it if it because it wasn't Brexit - today it is. Seems like Brexiteers are more open to changing their minds than you give them credit for.
And I wouldn't bet against them winning for a 2nd time, the last poll I saw it was 50/50.
But that's Labour's policy, seems perfectly understandable to me don't you think?
Wilts, see my reply to BST mate.
Just the way I see it.
Oh and we haven’t had that second referendum yet so as it stands, we are still due to leave, it is just when will it happen.
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BB.
Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.
Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.
So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.
And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.
It's that simple.
Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.
Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.
Yes, but I thought the EU said there was nothing more on the table? And what exactly will Labour's aim be, to leave or to stay?
You see, that's my point. respect for a political party needs to be earned, and they get that by being clear to the electorate what they are actually voting for.
Labour have been speaking to the EU over these last 3 years and would be open to a closer deal. Labours aim will depend on the deal. Corbyn will abstain and others in the party will decide on their own personal choices but overall it's the people's choice.
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But why would they Hound?
That would be a decision between a specific, defined Brexit and Remain. Decided by the British people.
The reason we are where we are now is precisely because Brexit WASN'T defined in 2016. And the last three years have been a fight on the Tory side to define it in a the way that they want.
Stand back and tell me that's not true.
And then ask yourself if Labour's policy is less democratic.
I am not saying that the Labour policy on this is wrong BST.
In fact, I like it.
However, after three years of reading comments by Brexiteers whingeing about Remainers wanting a second Referendum I think it is fair to suggest what they would say if another vote came out with a remain win.
For me it's not having a second referendum with just the same options but something which actually defines "the will of the people". We've had a hung parliament and look like we might have another one which will mean more of the last 3 years. I'm sick of hearing different people saying what it is what the people wanted when the people could decide for themselves.
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Labour might not be that significant after this election.
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And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.
With respect Sydney, it's hardly a fair debate when you can constantly put up links from any outlet, sometimes including right wing And that's where the debate falls down bb, we all discuss labour to the enth degree but only the left discuss the right of politics to any great depth, it appears you and others (the right wing) only see fault with the left.
Yes, but you let the lefty press do your talking by issuing constant lefty orientated links. When the right does the same you dismiss it as not credible because it's a right-wing outlet!
I put the links up because they explain the situation better than I can, I expect to be ripped up if I put links up that are not true and when I get it wrong I try an get an apology up as soon as poss' for any reason.
If you see it as an unfair/unbalanced debate it's because it more or less reflects the truth of the situation, you cannot possibly deny that all this shit started from the right side of politics and the vote was a lame attempt by your own side to resolve internal conflict. Your party has been in turmoil ever since and it's third leader in three years is a shocker.
There is nothing at all stopping you/others posting articles from the media, unfortunately the largest share of the msm is from the right but spends most of it's time devoted to labour and the left and is fairly inaccurate. Show us a link that you have posted that is not just opinion but facts/truth that I or others have dismissed, if however it has been refuted and found to be inaccurate then you have to suck it up and maybe even a p o l o g i s e.
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Interesting possible movement in the polls. Look on the very far right hand side of this graph which averages the last 15 polls.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Uk2022polling15average.png/800px-Uk2022polling15average.png
We know the Tories have been mopping up BP support since Johnson took over.
Labour had been flatlining since losing a huge chunk of support to the Greens and LDs in the first half of the year. But finally, Labour's support has started climbing, with the Greens and LDs falling.
Massive gap to make up, but if that move starts to develop momentum, more and more folk will see that, if you really don't want Johnson, there really is only one alternative.
I'd be delighted to eat humble pie on this.
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Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?
Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?
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I actually think BST it will.narrow. Not necessarily because of labour but people will see through the lib dems and Swinson.
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Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?
Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?
If you count the gfc which appears to be labor's fault and they were at fault for trying to fix it, but how far are we going back here bfyp?
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I think you're probably right BFYP. It would certainly be deeply dispiriting if well-meaning left-leaning folk fell for the idea that Swinson is on their side, like they did with Clegg a decade back.
Plus, old tribal loyalties do still pull hard when the decision day looms. There's no question that's what happened at the last election. Labour pulled back a lot of support that had drifted off over the previous few years.
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BFYP.
If you're talking about economic growth per head, in real terms (i.e. after inflation is taken into account, which is what really matters), the past 9 years have seen a total growth considerably less than the previous 9.
And.
The previous 9 included the Global Financial Crash.
You expect the years after a major recession to be ones of higher than average growth, as we make up lost ground. That is what has happened every time we've had a recession since Keynes taught us how to rebound.
By 2010,we had stabilised and growth was coming back strongly. And then Austerity killed it for years. A monumental economic mistake. Not the result of a market failure or a global collapse. Our own Govt's deliberate policy.
As a direct result, economic growth in the 2010s has been about 1.2% per year, when it averaged 2.3% per year for the 60 years before that.
There's no discussion about this in economic circles anymore. The Tory Austerity policy catastrophically and totally unnecessarily f**ked up the recovery from the GFC.
You want to see how badly? Google "UK GDP per capita" and have a look at the interactive graph that comes up.
I'm not pulling the wool over your eyes here. It really is THAT bad.
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Already happening, BST.
Do not assume that the EU elections give a strong pointer to a GE.
The task for Labour is to join the dots on the connections between a broad raft of policies, and where they lead going forward. So Leavers need to think about whether they are giving the nod to the NHS sell-off on the sly!
More movement from Farrago to come IMO.
The about face today doesn't really cut to the issue, so he needs to withdraw more candidates without getting strung up from a lamp-post by those he has misled.
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And by the way. That's not just some meaningless academic debate.
Look what that catastrophic economic mistake has done to the wages that people earn
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1721C/production/_109584749_returntopeakpay-nc.png)
This MATTERS.
This is the really important stuff that will define our future.
Look at it another way. If we'd had a LABOUR Govt for the past decade, and we'd had economic growth and wage growth like that, do you think they would have any chance at all of winning this election?
Look at those graphs. And ask yourself if you truly want to carry on trusting this lot with your future prosperity.
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I understand the tide is turning for labor but please correct me if I'm wrong with my under 30 second challenge to explain the ramifications if voting tory or any Brexit party.
Ready-go: The tory party is controlled by the ERG hard right and many many moderates have left including johnson the lesser. Johnson and the party have buckled under the pressure from the ERG so No-Deal is almost guaranteed if the johnson tories get more than 50% of the seats or control of government via a coalition. The end .......... of the UK not as we know it but worse, if thats possible.
Not bad 15 seconds :woohoo:
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Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?
Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?
bfyp, I presume you posted the question about the two nine year periods thinking that the conservatives would be shown to be better with the economy? otherwise why would you ask.
Following the data that bst has offered it shows that labor's contribution to the first nine were better than the Tories latter nine, and further without Austerity which labor would have tossed out there could have been a total of 18 years of better economic management under labor's stewardship.
Are you (or anyone else) going to refute, prove otherwise or say you're correct bst, labor are better when it comes to the economy? or just let it slide and then rinse and repeat some time later.
I think I'm correct in saying that bst & or Wilts has shown over the last few weeks and supported with stats labor would be better for the Economy, NHS and jobs or wages? or maybe both, No?
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Firstly on the labour Brexit policy would there be a neither option?
Secondly sydney have the last nine years been better or worse than the 9 r so before?
As stated above the Policy is to have a referendum in June 2020 with a credible leave option against remain.
The other points; what the actual question will be, will it be a 2 stage transferable vote, which side Labour will campaign for or will they have a free vote - those are all interesting but irrelevant for this election. Because if Labour don't win there won't be a referendum and none of that will matter.
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https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1193712509896798209?s=19 (https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1193712509896798209?s=19)
Here's a video of US discussing if Boris has been compromised after being pictured with a Russian agent. This isn't the first time, he was pictured before with a different person who he called 'a good friend' who was later convicted of being a spy.
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https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1193712509896798209?s=19 (https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1193712509896798209?s=19)
Here's a video of US discussing if Boris has been compromised after being pictured with a Russian agent. This isn't the first time, he was pictured before with a different person who he called 'a good friend' who was later convicted of being a spy.
We're so far in Russia's back pocket.
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Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.
I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.
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Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.
I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.
With all due respect bfyp you always appear to have plenty of time to ask questions and then expand and change the question when challenged but not the time to supply any answers or rebuttals
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Meanwhile heavy drinking one eyed retired Australian MP goes for the beat-up.
‘’Alexander Downer says Australia should reduce UK intelligence sharing if Corbyn wins’’
Former top diplomat in the UK says Labour leader’s ‘Maduro-style economic agenda’ would imperil Australian investments
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/12/alexander-downer-says-australia-should-reduce-uk-intelligence-sharing-if-corbyn-wins
added
Lord Downer was heavily involved in this appalling behaviour, and because the government got caught out by a whistle blower they have taken him and his lawyer to court.
Australia–East Timor spying scandal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93East_Timor_spying_scandal
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BB.
Labour's policy on Brexit is crystal clear.
Labour fundamentally disagree with the interpretation that the Right has put on the Brexit vote. We've ended up looking at a deal that is a far bigger separation from the EU than anything that was discussed in 2016.
So, if elected, Labour would renegotiate a much closer relationship with the EU, cementing employment and environmental standards, and minimising the trade barriers between us and the EU.
And they would out that, specific Brexit back to the people, asking them if that is what they want, or if they would prefer to keep the status quo.
It's that simple.
Now, you can agree or disagree with that as a policy. But if you're suggesting that Labour doesn't have a policy, or it's too complex to understand, or it changes every day, then you're not really paying attention, and you haven't earned respect.
Because, there's a thing. Respect needs to be earned by behaviour.
Crystal clear????? Billy that's really pushing the boundary's it really is.Labour went through the majority of the post brexit referendum years with no real policy whatsoever,certainly the majority of the British public didn't know what it was..
Now in the last few months they have finally come out with the above which to me is more of a statement than a policy.Voters up and down the country have still been asking the same old question.Would Labour campaign for Leave or Remain on any deal negotiated??.And still they refuse to answer it,trying in some way to kid voters along that they are on everybody's side.Thats not a full brexit Policy as far as I'm or most other people are concerned.It's a half arsed fudge and whilst I respect you defending the party you believe in you know that too...Corbyn is anti EU,always has been their are more than enough video's of him stating as much floating around social media.However one suspects the majority of the membership are remain..Thats not a crystal clear policy as far as I'm concerned more like muddy waters.
Wether you like it or not that Policy (along with Corbyn) is a major contributing factor to why Labour are doing so badly,in fact you would be hard pressed to figure out how they could have done much worse over the last few years.I've noticed in the last few pages people clutching at whispy straws in a slight poll movement change,stop kidding yourselfs,it would take a seismic earthquake for Labour to get a majority..That's reality...
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So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.
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So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.
The difference is the Tory's have a firm side Sydney.They are commited to leaving the EU.They had a deal negotiated with the EU and then they re negotiated another one both were rejected by Labour/snp/libs..Whether you agree with that deal or not their position is clear.Leave or remain voters know exactly were they stand with every party but Labour.
Conservatives-Leave
Libs-Remain
SNP-Remain
Labour-Take a wild guess...
Labour Leave voters don't know whether Labour will renegotiate a deal then campaign against it,and Labour remain voters don't know wether they will re-negotiate a deal and campaign for it..By trying to keep both sides on board they have actually only managed to alienate both sides.
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Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.
I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.
With all due respect bfyp you always appear to have plenty of time to ask questions and then expand and change the question when challenged but not the time to supply any answers or rebuttals
That's not fair Sydney. I have the polar opposite political views to BFYP but he always posts thoughtfully and (mostly) interesting stuff. Maybe you have him mixed up with someone else?
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It’s not about the mps having a free vote for labour, the leave voters want to no that there won’t be a 2nd referendum as the remain want to no that they are, what labour are offering is nothing, vote for us and we will see what Happens on brexit
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So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.
The difference is the Tory's have a firm side Sydney.They are commited to leaving the EU.They had a deal negotiated with the EU and then they re negotiated another one both were rejected by Labour/snp/libs..Whether you agree with that deal or not their position is clear.Leave or remain voters know exactly were they stand with every party but Labour.
Conservatives-Leave
Libs-Remain
SNP-Remain
Labour-Take a wild guess...
Labour Leave voters don't know whether Labour will renegotiate a deal then campaign against it,and Labour remain voters don't know wether they will re-negotiate a deal and campaign for it..By trying to keep both sides on board they have actually only managed to alienate both sides.
You seem a bit confused WC so I have fixed it for you
Tory/Brexit Party - hard Brexit with deregulated economy, reduced environmental & workers rights, lax tax evasion laws with risk of attracting money launderers and no idea of future relationship with EU for years
LD - remain without asking the country
SNP - remain (but unsure about asking the country)
Labour - letting the country decided with a second referendum in June 2020 with a viable leave option against remain
It is irrelevant what Labour Leave or Labour Remain voters want. Unless they vote for a referendum they will get what Farage, Johnson and Trump want - and all that comes with it. They can argue about the campaign for that referendum during the campaign for that referendum.
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WC agreed WC the Tories want to leave clear cut but it's the how that's the problem everyone knows johnson wants no-deal so why isn't this being shouted from the hilltops?
I think if you reexamine the tory 'deal' over the last 3 years or even over the last year it has been their own party that has refused to accept what was being offered in 95-100% of the time, agreed labor didn't want what was being offerered but they weren't asked and had no power almost right up until johnson spat the dummy and started throwing his own mps out.
Corbyn has told his cabinet what the deal is, they may not be 100% happy but it's set. They took their time but the goalposts kept moving and if those in power couldn't make up their minds you can hardy remostrate with the opposition, except to say and reiterate what bst has said they threw away a golden opportunity to be the remain team.
Labour, renogotiate peoples vote on it,
Tory's with a majority no-deal crash out.
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Sydney I appreciate that you and Wilts obviously believe that the current Labour policy on Brexit is the correct way to go.However you can argue all day long on here with me but the reality is that the electorate will make that decision and right now every poll must tell you that your view is in the minority even among Labour voters.The want to know what is Labour's position on whether they want to leave or remain,it really is as simple as that.You telling them they don't need to know isn't going to cut the mustard I'm afraid.
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I don't agree WC what I'm saying it's set, they've made a decision, my choice would be to go with what the economists say that their is no good Brexit. If labor get in and the public vote to remain, admittedly it doesn't look likely today but there is more than a month (which is a hell of a long time in politics)
If remain is the outcome the GDP growth alone would stabilize the economy provided there isn't a recession but whatever happens growth has to be better over any leave scenario and we've been over this ground many times.
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So labours deal is to renegotiate and then put it to people and the Tory's deal is what? No-Deal most likely but they're not trumpeting it are they and then as a fall back the May deal wriiren on different coloured paper.
The difference is the Tory's have a firm side Sydney.They are commited to leaving the EU.They had a deal negotiated with the EU and then they re negotiated another one both were rejected by Labour/snp/libs..Whether you agree with that deal or not their position is clear.Leave or remain voters know exactly were they stand with every party but Labour.
Conservatives-Leave
Libs-Remain
SNP-Remain
Labour-Take a wild guess...
Labour Leave voters don't know whether Labour will renegotiate a deal then campaign against it,and Labour remain voters don't know wether they will re-negotiate a deal and campaign for it..By trying to keep both sides on board they have actually only managed to alienate both sides.
You seem a bit confused WC so I have fixed it for you
Tory/Brexit Party - hard Brexit with deregulated economy, reduced environmental & workers rights, lax tax evasion laws with risk of attracting money launderers and no idea of future relationship with EU for years
LD - remain without asking the country
SNP - remain (but unsure about asking the country)
Labour - letting the country decided with a second referendum in June 2020 with a viable leave option against remain
It is irrelevant what Labour Leave or Labour Remain voters want. Unless they vote for a referendum they will get what Farage, Johnson and Trump want - and all that comes with it. They can argue about the campaign for that referendum during the campaign for that referendum.
Wilts by all means state a different opinion to mine,i respect your right to have that opinion.However don't ever change my posts to suit your ends.That is very very disrespectful and bang out of order as far as I'm concerned.If you want this thread to be a Labour Love in between yourselves then I wont take any further part in it..
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Sydney, it's not just the economy is it, there is far more to it than that, good and some bad also.
I haven't got the time to get in to it right now, there are clearly more things to it than are mentioned.
With all due respect bfyp you always appear to have plenty of time to ask questions and then expand and change the question when challenged but not the time to supply any answers or rebuttals
I simply do not care enough to spend the time it requires. My job and two young kids deserve that much more. If I cant just dip in and out when I'm doing something like feeding a 7 week old baby I wont bother.
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Absolutely no problem bfyp but you'll lose cred if you keep questioning posts but don't support your reasoning
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Interesting possible movement in the polls. Look on the very far right hand side of this graph which averages the last 15 polls.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Uk2022polling15average.png/800px-Uk2022polling15average.png
We know the Tories have been mopping up BP support since Johnson took over.
Labour had been flatlining since losing a huge chunk of support to the Greens and LDs in the first half of the year. But finally, Labour's support has started climbing, with the Greens and LDs falling.
Massive gap to make up, but if that move starts to develop momentum, more and more folk will see that, if you really don't want Johnson, there really is only one alternative.
I'd be delighted to eat humble pie on this.
The thing is though BST, if you really don’t want Corbyn there is only one alternative likely winner.
Polar opposites of opinion for many people whereas some aren’t sure if they want either of them.
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It’s not about the mps having a free vote for labour, the leave voters want to no that there won’t be a 2nd referendum as the remain want to no that they are, what labour are offering is nothing, vote for us and we will see what Happens on brexit
Bpool.
Forgive me for being blunt, but your post shows a worrying inability to process facts.
I'll repeat.
Labour's policy is crystal clear.
If Labour is elected, there WILL be a second Ref, between a Leave deal that Labour will negotiate with the EU, and Remain.
WingCo.
As I posted last night, were you up in arms about the Tory party not having a common policy on May's Deal? If not (and I don't recall you decrying it at the time) then why do you criticise Labour for not saying if they would campaign for Leave or Remain in Ref2.
This is an issue that goes entirely against party discipline. The current PM has flipped his thinking on precisely what form of Brexit we should have at least 4 times, and that after flipping from being a strong Remain supporter to a passionate Leaver.
If you aren't going to condemn him, why criticise Labour?
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Hound.
Well yes. That's kind of how it works. You choose between two imperfect options.
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Oh Billy don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Boris.Which is why I'm in a difficult position of were I actually cast my vote this election.My Politics are centre based, so right now I do not have a party that I can truly relate too or represents what I believe in.I've always believed that if you cant be bothered to vote then you lose credibility to complain but I'm beginning to wonder.The conservatives in their current guise are far to far right,however on the other hand I'm no socialist and couldn't vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn,mainly based on his foreign policy and that I'm ex military..
The main reason I criticise Labour so much on here is for a couple of reasons,firstly this forum is mainly Labour supporters and it wouldn't be much of a debate if we only heard one sides view,secondly it's my belief that the best goverments we have had are the ones were we have a strong opposition,it's my belief rightly or wrongly that the reason the Tory's have been able to get away with what they have is because the current opposition are so weak...Even you must shake your head and wonder how Labour have found themselves in this position against such a unpopular Government..
If the current Labour leadership was true centre/left with a different leader they would be on the verge of power..
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It’s not about the mps having a free vote for labour, the leave voters want to no that there won’t be a 2nd referendum as the remain want to no that they are, what labour are offering is nothing, vote for us and we will see what Happens on brexit
Leave voters want to be in limbo forever then?
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Oh Billy don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Boris.Which is why I'm in a difficult position of were I actually cast my vote this election.My Politics are centre based, so right now I do not have a party that I can truly relate too or represents what I believe in.I've always believed that if you cant be bothered to vote then you lose credibility to complain but I'm beginning to wonder.The conservatives in their current guise are far to far right,however on the other hand I'm no socialist and couldn't vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn,mainly based on his foreign policy and that I'm ex military..
The main reason I criticise Labour so much on here is for a couple of reasons,firstly this forum is mainly Labour supporters and it wouldn't be much of a debate if we only heard one sides view,secondly it's my belief that the best goverments we have had are the ones were we have a strong opposition,it's my belief rightly or wrongly that the reason the Tory's have been able to get away with what they have is because the current opposition are so weak...Even you must shake your head and wonder how Labour have found themselves in this position against such a unpopular Government..
If the current Labour leadership was true centre/left with a different leader they would be on the verge of power..
Agree with everything you say there WC!
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Oh Billy don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Boris.Which is why I'm in a difficult position of were I actually cast my vote this election.My Politics are centre based, so right now I do not have a party that I can truly relate too or represents what I believe in.I've always believed that if you cant be bothered to vote then you lose credibility to complain but I'm beginning to wonder.The conservatives in their current guise are far to far right,however on the other hand I'm no socialist and couldn't vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn,mainly based on his foreign policy and that I'm ex military..
The main reason I criticise Labour so much on here is for a couple of reasons,firstly this forum is mainly Labour supporters and it wouldn't be much of a debate if we only heard one sides view,secondly it's my belief that the best goverments we have had are the ones were we have a strong opposition,it's my belief rightly or wrongly that the reason the Tory's have been able to get away with what they have is because the current opposition are so weak...Even you must shake your head and wonder how Labour have found themselves in this position against such a unpopular Government..
If the current Labour leadership was true centre/left with a different leader they would be on the verge of power..
Agree with everything you say there WC!
I wouldn't admit to that rtid88,that wont make you popular on this thread..haha
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Ha! Pretty sure some of my previous comments on this thread haven't made me any friends but I just say it as I see it! :)
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Oh Billy don't get me wrong I'm no fan of Boris.Which is why I'm in a difficult position of were I actually cast my vote this election.My Politics are centre based, so right now I do not have a party that I can truly relate too or represents what I believe in.I've always believed that if you cant be bothered to vote then you lose credibility to complain but I'm beginning to wonder.The conservatives in their current guise are far to far right,however on the other hand I'm no socialist and couldn't vote for Labour under Jeremy Corbyn,mainly based on his foreign policy and that I'm ex military..
The main reason I criticise Labour so much on here is for a couple of reasons,firstly this forum is mainly Labour supporters and it wouldn't be much of a debate if we only heard one sides view,secondly it's my belief that the best goverments we have had are the ones were we have a strong opposition,it's my belief rightly or wrongly that the reason the Tory's have been able to get away with what they have is because the current opposition are so weak...Even you must shake your head and wonder how Labour have found themselves in this position against such a unpopular Government..
If the current Labour leadership was true centre/left with a different leader they would be on the verge of power..
Agree with everything you say there WC!
Same feeling here
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Gina Miller is campaigning not for one party, but to tactically vote for a party who you may not necessarily agree with, just to stop Brexit.
How can that be democratic, reflect the real wishes of the electorate, and is any different from foreign countries trying to effect the result? and it is getting air time on the BBC, when she should possibly be locked up, and who is funding her? are they really any different from being Hedge funds dabbling in politics to effect an outcome? I await with interest the opinions of the lefties on here, who have complained about big business funding political parties for years for their self interest.
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It’s not about the mps having a free vote for labour, the leave voters want to no that there won’t be a 2nd referendum as the remain want to no that they are, what labour are offering is nothing, vote for us and we will see what Happens on brexit
Bpool.
Forgive me for being blunt, but your post shows a worrying inability to process facts.
I'll repeat.
Labour's policy is crystal clear.
If Labour is elected, there WILL be a second Ref, between a Leave deal that Labour will negotiate with the EU, and Remain.
WingCo.
As I posted last night, were you up in arms about the Tory party not having a common policy on May's Deal? If not (and I don't recall you decrying it at the time) then why do you criticise Labour for not saying if they would campaign for Leave or Remain in Ref2.
This is an issue that goes entirely against party discipline. The current PM has flipped his thinking on precisely what form of Brexit we should have at least 4 times, and that after flipping from being a strong Remain supporter to a passionate Leaver.
If you aren't going to condemn him, why criticise Labour? Who is to say labour will get a better deal that people will back, you seem to think they will but that does not mean it will satisfy many other people let alone mps, and as said labour could well vote against there own deal! So the leave vote that vote labour will pretty much get shafted can you not see that’s a ridiculous way to do it, I don’t know why they don’t just say they will revoke article 50 then people no what there voting for
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Gina Miller is campaigning not for one party, but to tactically vote for a party who you may not necessarily agree with, just to stop Brexit.
How can that be democratic, reflect the real wishes of the electorate, and is any different from foreign countries trying to effect the result? and it is getting air time on the BBC, when she should possibly be locked up, and who is funding her? are they really any different from being Hedge funds dabbling in politics to effect an outcome? I await with interest the opinions of the lefties on here, who have complained about big business funding political parties for years for their self interest.
Maybe you clarify your post a bit so people can reply, you appear to be rambling Selby
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Now this might just shed a bit of light on the real reason that Labour wont set a position on leave or remain.
Rupa Huq who is/was a Labour Mp just dissolved has tweeted the following...
Happy to have signed @remain_labour plegde
-For a #peoples vote AND
-against any brexit
Now nearly 100 signatures!!
Now that is nearly half the last bunch of Labour Mp's and is the real reason they wont commit..
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Now this might just shed a bit of light on the real reason that Labour wont set a position on leave or remain.
Rupa Huq who is/was a Labour Mp just dissolved has tweeted the following...
Happy to have signed @remain_labour plegde
-For a #peoples vote AND
-against any brexit
Now nearly 100 signatures!!
Now that is nearly half the last bunch of Labour Mp's and is the real reason they wont commit..
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https://twitter.com/RupaHuq/status/1193944991581773824/photo/1
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The last three Prime Ministers have been absolutely atrocious and JC is the alternative to Boris. Does anybody on here approach the future with any confidence?
Should Boris get in with a decent majority and we crash out of the EU does anybody know of any politicians at the moment capable of dealing with the EU or the rest of the world?
I certainly don't irrespective of who takes the reigns.
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I think if Corbyn gets in and the new vote says leave he won't lie to the country, he won't spend time shagging around, he won't do a deal with trump/US if it means screwing over the NHS but he will put an end to Austerity and make the playing field a bit more level for those not earning a fortune and protect their rights.
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Sydney, his next big job may well be setting out his allotment for next spring
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Those of you who say all politicians lie.
Here's the BBC running fact checks on Labour's claims about Tory cuts to flood and fire services.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/50395117
They find that every claim is supported by the facts.
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The Germans are cock-a-hoop about the 10,000 jobs Tesla is creating near Berlin
because Brexit made it too risky to build a factory in the UK.
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Filo was saying the other day what a shambles Kwasi Kwarteng was when interviewed.
I missed this car crash on Sunday.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1193450658193641472
Kwarteng: Labour is going to spend this precise and huge amount and it will bankrupt the country.
Sophie Ridge: How much are the Tories going to spend.
Kwarteng: I'm not going to come on here and bandy numbers.
He is beyond awful. I've got politics ingrained in my DNA, but I'd walk away from it if every politician was like him. He never, EVER discusses issues. He's sent out to blunderbuss a party line that they e decided to ram home.
Every interview with him goes along these lines.
Interviewer: I'd like to ask you about X
Kwarteng: Long monologue about Y
Interviewer: That's very interesting. Could we now get back to X.
Kwarteng: Oh I'm not here to talk about X. (Reels off a list of untruths about X, then repeats monologue about Y.)
That is PRECISELY the sort of politician who makes the electorate think that all politicians are t**ts.
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The Germans are cock-a-hoop about the 10,000 jobs Tesla is creating near Berlin
because Brexit made it too risky to build a factory in the UK.
We that can be blamed on those people who voted to leave then.
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Interesting.
https://www.google.nl/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-election-polls-tracker-labour-creeps-up-on-tories-as-brexit-party-loses-support-a4285976.html%3famp
Since the start of the campaign, the Tories' poll share hasn't changed.
Labour's has gone up by 6-7 points.
LD, Green and BP all dropped.
So...is that Labour pulling supporters back from Farage, now Farage has openly placed himself as a Johnson enabler?
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A little maybe Billy but the two main factors are supposed to be:
Labour's campaign to get people to register to vote - 1.3 mill new voters now and still rising
Remain voters returning +19 points since May
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1194311198948384768
That's before yesterday and todays announcements from Swinson sacking the candidates in Canterbury and High Peak for wanting to stand aside and imposing a new candidate from central office without/against local wishes. Appears to have angered a lot of the twitterati
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NHS?
Safe with the Tories?
https://mobile.twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1194916813739569152
My arse.
THIS is what happens when you freeze the amount of national income you put into the NHS for a decade,while need and cost are rising.
You older folk who support the Tories, but who are statistically increasingly likely to be relying on the NHS as you get older. Doesn't this concern you?
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Never voted Tory in my life - Never would - Voted Remain (bucking the Silver vote it seems) - still hoping we somehow "stay in" thus respecting the will of the people in the 1st Referendum AND YES ... the NHS situation is very very worrying
It is building up almost exponentially
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Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant
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Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant
Tell me, Ldr, how has the political side of the EU affected you in a negative way?
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Ldr
We will have to agree to disagree on 75 Referendum
Sure times have changed - I have to agree - not least the Title of the EEC / EU but despite 8 times more people voting to Remain (join) the EEC in that Referendum than the 4% that voted Leave in 2016 the (mainly) Tory MPs and their successors could not "let it go"
The people themselves made no great fuss (indeed I voted Leave in 75 and never mentioned it again for years) it was the MPs themselves and they had an open sore to keep scratching again and again UNTIL Cameron caved in and gave them the Referendum which has led us to where we are right now
As I have said before I voted Remain this time so am currently 0 for 2 !
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Your doing a bb Ldr, avoiding answering the question.
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Your doing a bb Ldr, avoiding answering the question.
I'll answer it instead then Sydney. The EU leaders are unelected. That's undemocratic, and you know what us Leavers think of a lack of democracy.
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Hi Sydney, watching the match sorry. My reasons for voting leave have been made very clear in discussions with yourself and BST. NNKs question is irrelevant to my statement.
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Your doing a bb Ldr, avoiding answering the question.
What do you mean 'doing a BB?'
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Your doing a bb Ldr, avoiding answering the question.
What do you mean 'doing a BB?'
I didn't say that :)
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''Tell me, Ldr, how has the political side of the EU affected you in a negative way?''
I think this was the question Ldr
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''Tell me, Ldr, how has the political side of the EU affected you in a negative way?''
I think this was the question Ldr
Yes mate, saw that, my circumstances are irrelevant to a general point
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Not speaking for Kato here but how has the EU changed politically, Ldr?
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Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant
Woudn't leaving the EU but staying in the CU/SM respect both referenda?
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It would also be an acceptable 1st or 2nd choice to 75% of the population according to a poll this year.
No other outcome comes close to that level of support.
But apparently it's undemocratic to question the deal that Johnson has agreed.
Strange times...
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Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant
Woudn't leaving the EU but staying in the CU/SM respect both referenda?
Works for me Glyn
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We have a bit of a consensus here, I think we should go for it.
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If Brexit was truly about The Will of The People, we'd have left some time ago on something like those terms.
But it's not. It never was. Brexit is and only ever was about the civil war for control of the Tory party.
So, because that sort of deal is utterly unacceptable to the Far Right, May unilaterally interpreted the 2016 result as meaning that we had to leave the SM and CU.
There's no democratic mandate for that decision. The 2016 ballot paper didn't say
"Remain".
Or
"Leave, but 'leave' must be interpreted as a more distant relationship with the EU than continued membership of the CU and SM".
And yet, May, Johnson and Farage decided for you that that was what the ballot meant.
And questioning them is an affront to democracy, apparently.
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Do you not think most people thought leave meant leave come what may? You must speak to leave voters not on this forum what have they said to you? Have they changed there mind? As I’ve said and others have going on people I know and social media hardly any seem to have said they would change there vote? Genuine question not a argument
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Bpool.
Forgive me but that is a silly thing to say, "leave meant leave come what may".
If that was the case, you should be livid with Johnson and Rees-Mogg and Farage and IDS and John Redwood and Bill Cash and Mark Francois. If your comment is correct, May's deal meant "Leave" and that lot were utterly undemocratic in bringing it down and preventing us from Leaving, unless it was on terms that were acceptable to them, and imposed on the rest of us.
I and others have just said that there as a form of leave which could have attracted the support of a very large chunk of the population. That was rejected by the Tory party, without ANY reference to the electorate. THEY, May and the Tories, egged on by Farage, decided that that sort of Leave wasn't acceptable.
Once that decision had been made, any claim that "Leave means Leave" is ridiculous. "Leave" has ome to mean whatever is determined by the right wing of the Tory party.
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I've never been a fan of a second referendum in any guise.However my mind is changing.Billy can harp on all he wants about it been the Tory's fault and Labour are blameless but the reality is that with no majority in Parliament no deal whatever it's form would get through and there all to blame..
Only this week we've had over 100 Labour parliament candidates sign a pledge that they will campaign for remain and it's there aim to stop brexit.They don't seem to care or think what Labours position is going to be,they have pledged that for themselves..
So whoever is in government would need a big majority because those mp's if elected are not going to vote for any deal are they??? So unless the Tory's get a big majority to pass it through then whilst I don't think it's democratic a second vote is the only way to go...
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Wing Co.
Just a few facts here and one (well-supported) opinion.
Facts.
1) The 2016 Ref didn't specify AT ALL what "Leave" meant.
2) Theresa May decided, in her Lancaster House speech in Jan 2017 that "Leave" meant leaving the SM and CU.
3) That was a pivotal moment because it killed any possibility of the Opposition parties supporting the Leave that she would negotiate. Because that meant that we were being driven towards a Brexit that, in practice, would mean a watering down of employment and environmental protection and major economic frictions between the UK and EU.
4) Johnson and the ERG then took an increasingly hard stance on what "Leave" meant and refused to support the (already hard) deal that May had negotiated. If they had supported May last winter, we would have left by March.
Those are all facts.
My opinion.
If May had tried to go for the one Brexit deal that could have reached across party lines back in 2017 (a softer Brexit, including some form of staying in the CU and SM) she'd have easily carried this through Parliament. That's because Corbyn wanted that done and out of the way. There is nothing in it for him to keep Brexit hanging around unfinished, as you can see by the hammering that he and Labour got in the opinion polls last spring. Opinion poll data shows clearly that a soft Brexit could have carried the support of the vast majority of the country, instead of polarising us into two aggressive polarised camps like we are at the moment. But thhat would have meant May getting it in the neck from the Right of the Tory party. And that's the reason it didn't happen.
If you disagree with any of those facts, or with that opinion, feel free to explain why. I'm sick of hearing badly thought-out complaints that it's all Labour's fault, with no fact-based justification.
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I don’t think anyone thinks it’s all labours fault, it was the tories in the 1st place for having a referendum then the tories for appointing a remain pm, then it was pretty much all the mps for not coming together and getting us out of Europe
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The MPs had no chance to come together, as previously stated, May went for the red lines and excluded any other party of supporting her. We would have been out if she'd gone for a Norway style deal
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Bpool.
I give up. I totally give up.
Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?
I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.
That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.
I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.
If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.
What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.
No f**king way am I swallowing that.
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Massive pre-Election boost for Labour...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50436252
A soon-to-be convicted criminal coming to London to tell us how great he thinks Johnson is. And how Farage should have a position in Govt.
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Bpool.
I give up. I totally give up.
Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?
I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.
That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.
I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.
If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.
What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.
No f**king way am I swallowing that.
let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you
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Bpool.
I give up. I totally give up.
Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?
I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.
That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.
I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.
If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.
What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.
No f**king way am I swallowing that.
let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you
And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?
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I've never been a fan of a second referendum in any guise.However my mind is changing.Billy can harp on all he wants about it been the Tory's fault and Labour are blameless but the reality is that with no majority in Parliament no deal whatever it's form would get through and there all to blame..
Only this week we've had over 100 Labour parliament candidates sign a pledge that they will campaign for remain and it's there aim to stop brexit.They don't seem to care or think what Labours position is going to be,they have pledged that for themselves..
So whoever is in government would need a big majority because those mp's if elected are not going to vote for any deal are they??? So unless the Tory's get a big majority to pass it through then whilst I don't think it's democratic a second vote is the only way to go...
Err no, sorry but you are wrong WC.
Like it or loath it Johnson's deal did get through the HoC. He only pulled it because the HoC wanted 6 days rather than 2 days to scrutinise it - if he had continued we would most likely have a withdrawal deal agreed by now.
All those Labour MP's are standing on a policy of having a 2nd referendum with a viable leave deal against remain. If they get elected there will be a 2nd referendum in which their vote will count as equally as yours, mine, bpool and everyone else on this forum. They can campaign for who they like in that referendum but whichever side wins it is that which will be implemented.
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I'll bet you a tenner that there's not a majority votes for Tory and BP combined.
Do you agree that if that happens, there's no democratic mandate for Johnson's Brexit?
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Bpool.
I give up. I totally give up.
Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?
I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.
That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.
I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.
If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.
What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.
No f**king way am I swallowing that.
let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you
And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?
A bit like a jury would.
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The difference being of course is that a jury actually evaluates the evidence
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I'll bet you a tenner that there's not a majority votes for Tory and BP combined.
Do you agree that if that happens, there's no democratic mandate for Johnson's Brexit?
no I would say if no majority there should be a referendum as nothing will be solved
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The difference being of course is that a jury actually evaluates the evidence
What, shock horror.
Are you saying that the people of the UK won’t evaluate what politicians are telling them before they go to vote.
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it appears to be beyond you to do it hound :)
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it appears to be beyond you to do it hound :)
Getting desperate now, saying stuff like that.
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it appears to be beyond you to do it hound :)
Getting desperate now, saying stuff like that.
They've been desperate for a long time Hound. About three and a half years to be precise.
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Bpool.
I give up. I totally give up.
Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?
I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.
That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.
I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.
If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.
What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.
No f**king way am I swallowing that.
let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you
And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?
A bit like a jury would.
Only after they've been shut in a room and forced to listen to all the evidence. And then usually only when it's unamimous. And even after all that it's no guarantee it's the truth.
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Wolfie we respected the 75 referendum and stayed in the EEC. The EEC no longer exists, if it had remained economic and not changed to the political EU then nothing would have triggered the referendum into EU membership. The 2016 is the only referendum into EU membership. 75 ref is not relevant
Woudn't leaving the EU but staying in the CU/SM respect both referenda?
Works for me Glyn
Works for me too. If we have to Leave, there's no sense in slitting our economic throats to do it.
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Bpool.
I give up. I totally give up.
Tories chose a Remain PM? And then other MPs were at fault for not coming together?
I've set out there that May unilaterally chose a form of Hard Brexit that the other parties couldn't possibly support. She did that BECAUSE she wanted to get the support of the Hard Right Leave wing of the Tory party. And after she did that, you CANNOT put the blame on other parties for not blindly following her.
That's my entire bleeding point! That Brexit wasn't defined by the 2016 vote because "Brexit" isn't a specific, definable thing! It became something for the Right of the Tory party to define.
I'm f**ked if I'm going to expect ANYONE to "get in line" over that.
If the British people were asked if they supported a specific Brexit, and they said they did, then I'd accept it.
What YOU are saying is that we should all just accept whatever Johnson, Farage and Rees-Mogg decide "Brexit" means.
No f**king way am I swallowing that.
let’s see what the public decide on December 12 and see if most people agree with you
And since when has the truth been decided by a vote?
A bit like a jury would.
Only after they've been shut in a room and forced to listen to all the evidence. And then usually only when it's unamimous. And even after all that it's no guarantee it's the truth.
Yeah, I know that Glyn.
Just like it is no guarantee that anything that politicians (of all sides) tell us is the truth.
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''Russian meddling report – dissident's widow goes to law
Marina Litvinenko to try to force British government to publish document
The widow of a Russian dissident murdered in London plans to challenge a government decision not to publish a report on alleged Russian meddling in Britain, a lawyer representing the widow said''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/15/russian-meddling-report-dissidents-widow-goes-to-law
What could be more democratic than to have this report released to clear the air, let's find out how many of the ''Friends of Russia'' conservative ra ra group are paid up members of the communist party or not.
Let's find out before the election if the Russians interfered in the 'vote' and of course who knew about it, after all it's in all our interest's to know, isn't it? :)
Join the legal fight to release the Russia Report-give generously guys you know it makes sense :)
https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/releasetherussiareport/
https://www.crowdjustice.com/
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Have they said they won’t release it or they waiting till the election has been?
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Surely you would want a report showing how/if the Russian government interferes in British politics & elections before this vote has taken place so you can assure yourself it is not doing so in this GE?
The report might of course say there has been no Russian interference. In that case it is doubly surprising that Johnson hasn't released a report saying he has not done what there is evidence/suspicion of him doing.
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I'll bet you a tenner that there's not a majority votes for Tory and BP combined.
Do you agree that if that happens, there's no democratic mandate for Johnson's Brexit?
But, it would be the biggest mandate of them all wouldn't it?
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Surely you would want a report showing how/if the Russian government interferes in British politics & elections before this vote has taken place so you can assure yourself it is not doing so in this GE?
The report might of course say there has been no Russian interference. In that case it is doubly surprising that Johnson hasn't released a report saying he has not done what there is evidence/suspicion of him doing.
In a/the interview yesterday johnson said guff guff that there was no evidence of Russian interference, following the release I would imagine he would resign whatever ever position he holds if interference is found? as he's a man of his word. :)
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statement: “The MPS (Metropolitan Police Service) has received two allegations of electoral fraud and malpractice in relation to the 2019 General Election. The MPS Special Enquiry Team is responsible for investigating all such criminal allegations. Both allegations are currently being assessed.”
Apparently this relates to Farage's allegations that the Tory's have been offering bribes for Brexit Party candidates to stand down.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1195631967276011521
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Unbelievable
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-election-tynemouth-australia-diver-ed-punchard-a9205191.html
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Unbelievable
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-election-tynemouth-australia-diver-ed-punchard-a9205191.html
That is beyond parody.
How little self respect must you have to take this rabble seriously?
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And then you have this hypocrite
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-eu-elections-brian-monteith-france-northeast-farage-a8931611.html
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And of course Farage himself said he'd go and live in Germany if Brexit was a disaster.
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You know how the Tories insist that they are the party of law and order?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8Ij0JWJXRI8/Xc-v1bn1NSI/AAAAAAAACXI/hIAeP1qXslAa0vl15Jt1yJ7XcFZx-NXJACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Police%2Bnumbers.jpg)
How do people keep swallowing this.
They have NOTHING to offer. They have no Big Idea of where society needs to go. They just cut and cut and cut. And when they stop cutting, they announce it like it's a great triumph.
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I suppose they close their eyes while they're swallowing :)
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Noticeable that the fall in numbers began around 2007.
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You beggar belief Hound.
Utterly determined to ignore the massive picture and spot some third order issue that blames Labour.
Look at those numbers.
There was a rise of about 8% between 1997-2007. Then a fall of about 2.5% between 2007-2010. After which the numbers were still considerably higher than at any time in the Thatcher and Major years.
THEN the Tories came to power and you can SEE the link in the graph. Numbers collapsed. Fell by 20+% over 5-6 years, to by FAR the lowest point in a generation.
And you want to point out that tiny fall from 2007...
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Only picking out something minor and stretching it out of proportion.
A bit like almost every post that some contributors do on every political thread on here when they get an opportunity to bash the government.
I don’t include you in that group by the way BST.
As I have said before, I have no allegiance to any political party and have voted for the two major ones in the past.
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so do you accept the obvious fact; that Tories drastically reduced spending on the policy over the last 9 years?
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Only picking out something minor and stretching it out of proportion.
A bit like almost every post that some contributors do on every political thread on here when they get an opportunity to bash the government.
I don’t include you in that group by the way BST.
As I have said before, I have no allegiance to any political party and have voted for the two major ones in the past.
It's fairly easy to bash the current government. So many cuts, so many bad decisions. Look at the numbers and the majority will have gotten worse.
Here's some bashing. Two years after Grenfell and we're still having buildings covered in cladding set on fire like in Bolton. Why do we as people keep putting ourselves through these this?
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One thing that's becoming apparent is the battle grounds have completely changed in this election..In past elections a large percentage were safe seats with party's knowing in advance what efforts have to be put in and where to try and get over the line,those waters have been somewhat muddied this time around..
I live in the Brigg and Goole constituency, over the past twenty years we have had both Tory and Labour Mp's,Ian Cawsey and Andrew Percy and to be fair both worked hard for the local area rather than courting high profile jobs and the seat is normally on both party's target lists.As such we get high profile visits from both sides I bet we don't this time..Percy is 100-1 on at the bookies to win here which is unheard off.So suddenly in this election it's a safe seat...
I think this election is going to throw up a lot of surprises with seats that have been safe for both party's suddenly having a big bearing to play which intimates that this really will be a Brexit election.Labours chances of success really do depend on their ability to change that view and steer the focal back to austerity when their manifesto is released on Thursday..
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WingCo
B&G has been moving steadily more Tory for 20 years.
Here are the past few GE result gaps between the winning party and the 2nd (always Lab and Con)
1997 14% Lab
2001 9% Lab
2005 7% Lab
2010 11% Con
2015 26% Con
2017 27% Con
So, back in the 90s and 00s, the result more or less matched the national picture. Now it's massively Tory, even in 2017, when there was only 2% between the parties nationally.
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I accept your point Billy in B&G Percy has a good reputation for fighting local issues and the fact that he's a brexiteer in a leave area helps him obviously, but I still think mine still stands.If you look at both party's top 100 target seats based on the majoritys at the last election some near the top the bookies give them no chance in and some way down the bottom are neck and neck...That's not the norm...
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Hi Sydney, watching the match sorry. My reasons for voting leave have been made very clear in discussions with yourself and BST. NNKs question is irrelevant to my statement.
OK I'll rephrase it.... Tell me, Ldr, how has the political side of the EU affected the UK in a negative way?
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Your doing a bb Ldr, avoiding answering the question.
I'll answer it instead then Sydney. The EU leaders are unelected. That's undemocratic, and you know what us Leavers think of a lack of democracy.
It's rather clear that you don't know how the EU functions SS, nor do you understand the meaning of democracy. So, tell me who elects any of our ministers?
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Only picking out something minor and stretching it out of proportion.
A bit like almost every post that some contributors do on every political thread on here when they get an opportunity to bash the government.
I don’t include you in that group by the way BST.
As I have said before, I have no allegiance to any political party and have voted for the two major ones in the past.
It's fairly easy to bash the current government. So many cuts, so many bad decisions. Look at the numbers and the majority will have gotten worse.
Here's some bashing. Two years after Grenfell and we're still having buildings covered in cladding set on fire like in Bolton. Why do we as people keep putting ourselves through these this?
Unfortunately there does not seem to be a real groundswell to hold them to account - and there should be.
However when you can get 42% of the popular vote and get a landslide like Mrs Thatcher did there is something fundamentally wrong
42% for me (here he goes again they are saying) should get them 42% of the Seats call it 265 as I cant be bothered to work it out. Then they would have to form a Coalition with Lib Dems / DUP / both and those should be able to hold them to account
With PR I am convinced we would never have got anywhere near B****t.
The other "problem" is it is one person one vote and unfortunately I have to respect the way each person places their own vote but IMO many many people who vote Tory should never be within a mile of them
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Your doing a bb Ldr, avoiding answering the question.
I'll answer it instead then Sydney. The EU leaders are unelected. That's undemocratic, and you know what us Leavers think of a lack of democracy.
It's rather clear that you don't know how the EU functions SS, nor do you understand the meaning of democracy. So, tell me who elects any of our ministers?
I assume by that NNK means who elects any of our Ministers into the Executive, as opposed to electing them as members of the Legislature - which is a different arm of the British Constitution.
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Cheaper houses isn't a disaster for everyone.
Brexit will make you poorer too, so according to you that's one reason we shouldn't vote for Johnson...
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Your doing a bb Ldr, avoiding answering the question.
I'll answer it instead then Sydney. The EU leaders are unelected. That's undemocratic, and you know what us Leavers think of a lack of democracy.
It's rather clear that you don't know how the EU functions SS, nor do you understand the meaning of democracy. So, tell me who elects any of our ministers?
I assume by that NNK means who elects any of our Ministers into the Executive, as opposed to electing them as members of the Legislature - which is a different arm of the British Constitution.
Indeed, I should have made that clearer.
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
So I can afford more house for my money?
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Glyn, I am 72 years old and have never in my life voted anything else but Labour in a general election.
Not this time though, I will be voting conservative.
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
This. What cheaper houses will mean is more first time buyers.
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Glyn, I am 72 years old and have never in my life voted anything else but Labour in a general election.
Not this time though, I will be voting conservative.
Why are you going to vote to make yourself poorer when you're telling others not to?
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Glyn, I am 72 years old and have never in my life voted anything else but Labour in a general election.
Not this time though, I will be voting conservative.
Why are you going to vote to make yourself poorer when you're telling others not to?
I think he is saying the opposite to that.
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
People who own a few houses might think differently to that though.
Their investment value will drop.
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
People who own a few houses might think differently to that though.
Their investment value will drop.
Indeed, but there's many more of people like me who buy a house to live in than there are people who invest in houses. And investments always come with that warning.............
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
People who own a few houses might think differently to that though.
Their investment value will drop.
Indeed, but there's many more of people like me who buy a house to live in than there are people who invest in houses. And investments always come with that warning.............
Yep, agreed, but they would think differently is all I was saying.
A drop in the Inheritance Tax threshold to £125000 is not attractive to lots of people either.
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
People who own a few houses might think differently to that though.
Their investment value will drop.
Indeed, but there's many more of people like me who buy a house to live in than there are people who invest in houses. And investments always come with that warning.............
Yep, agreed, but they would think differently is all I was saying.
A drop in the Inheritance Tax threshold to £125000 is not attractive to lots of people either.
Yes, but an awful lot of people who won't be affected by it will think it's a good thing - just as an awful lot of people who won't be affected by a drop in the price of housing will think it's a bad thing.
I sometimes wonder what they actually teach people in school these days!
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
People who own a few houses might think differently to that though.
Their investment value will drop.
Indeed, but there's many more of people like me who buy a house to live in than there are people who invest in houses. And investments always come with that warning.............
Yep, agreed, but they would think differently is all I was saying.
A drop in the Inheritance Tax threshold to £125000 is not attractive to lots of people either.
Yes, but an awful lot of people who won't be affected by it will think it's a good thing - just as an awful lot of people who won't be affected by a drop in the price of housing will think it's a bad thing.
I sometimes wonder what they actually teach people in school these days!
Well seeing as how I left school fifty years ago I guess I won’t be included in your last thought.
I suppose your first sentence in that last reply emphasises why people will never agree, whatever their political persuasion is.
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In today's example if the Tories being utterly detached from the concept of Objective Truth, I give you...Corporation Tax.
This morning, on R4, Andrea Ledsome went to great pains to exclaim that the Tories would be cutting Corporation Tax, and that by doing so, they would get companies to pay more tax in total.
Three hours later Boris Johnson announced to the CBI that they WOULDN'T be cutting Corporation Tax, and by not cutting it, the Govt would take in £6bn more in tax.
And no f**ker gives a f**k. We are so anaesthetised to the Tories just saying anything and not being picked up on it.
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It was Johnson's policy up until yesterday.
During his leadership campaign he repeatedly emphasised 'every time corporation tax has been cut in this country it has produced more revenue.'.
One story to one group of voters - another to a different group.
What;s the betting he will have 'changed his mind' again tomorrow. Changes his mind a lot this Johnson bloke.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/11/why-boris-johnson-u-turning-tax-cuts
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Why will I be poorer? I buy a house to live in, its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it. If I move, (unlikely now, but who knows....), the the price I will get is irrelevant as whatever happens to the price of my house will have happened equally to, and be reflected in the price of, whatever I chose to buy.
I am far more likely to be adversely affected financially if/when we leave the EU!
"its value is meaningless whilst ever I live in it" may be true if you don't have a mortgage (obviously I don't know your financial situation).
For somebody like me, with a high LTV mortgage, that 10% swing in value could have a huge impact on which LTV bracket I fall into in December 2020 when my deal is up for renewal, and in turn make a significant difference to the interest rate I pay, leaving me comparatively richer or poorer based on the value of the house.
Obviously all of that has to be balanced with what also happens to interest rates, and I don't know enough to comment on that. Just wanted to highlight that even if you only have 1 house, if you have a mortgage then the value, over time, can make a big difference.
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In today's example if the Tories being utterly detached from the concept of Objective Truth, I give you...Corporation Tax.
This morning, on R4, Andrea Ledsome went to great pains to exclaim that the Tories would be cutting Corporation Tax, and that by doing so, they would get companies to pay more tax in total.
Three hours later Boris Johnson announced to the CBI that they WOULDN'T be cutting Corporation Tax, and by not cutting it, the Govt would take in £6bn more in tax.
And no f**ker gives a f**k. We are so anaesthetised to the Tories just saying anything and not being picked up on it.
Made part of my prediction true (so far unless they change again overnight)
I said Party A would promise 20 bill for NHS (as an example of what I hate about electioneering)
Then Party B would promise 26 bill
Then Party A would suddenly find another 6 Bill from somewhere
Then (still to come to fruition) Party A (or B) whichever wins said Election announces almost immediately that having studied the figures more closely renegues on the 26 Bln and says it will put in as much as it can afford for the forseeable
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Said a bloke who voted for Brexit and a 20% fall in house prices!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/10/would-no-deal-brexit-crash-housing-market
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DON'T VOTE TO BE POORER FOLKS, a property expert on talk radio has just said that the difference in labour or the tories winning the election will be 10% in the value of property.
He predicted that if the tories win the election property prices will rise in 5% in 2020 and if labour win will be 5% less than current prices.
So there you have it a vote for labour is a vote to be poorer for property owners.
Said a bloke who voted for Brexit and a 20% fall in house prices!
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/10/would-no-deal-brexit-crash-housing-market
No Wilts.
That would be the Remainers' fault, d'oh.
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Fascinating thread.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1196439614820671489
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How people can openly admit Johnson is the biggest liar in UK politics but still vote for him over Corybn, or anyone else, is actually quite scary.
What would it take NOT to vote for Johnson?
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Some satire I found and thought quite funny.....
What's the difference between a computer and a Labour voter?
You only have to punch information into a computer ONCE!
(Please feel free to substitute any other political party you desire. It's a joke and not a political statement.)
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During the first 2 weeks of this Election campaign the Conservative Party has:
Renamed their Twitter accounts during the leaders debate in an attempt to deliberately mislead
Doctored an interview with Keir Starmer on GMTV
Bribed Brexit Party members not to stand
Refused to publish the Russian ‘interference’ report
Can we trust them to run the country?
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You couldn't trust them to run a bath.
Surely we can't ever had such a lack of decent politicians across the board.
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How people can openly admit Johnson is the biggest liar in UK politics but still vote for him over Corybn, or anyone else, is actually quite scary.
What would it take NOT to vote for Johnson?
A new Labour front bench
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All it shows is that the media (see Wilts post) has persuaded the electorate that labour and Cordyn are worse than the tory's and Johnson which is unbelievable literally.
It's not black it's white
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All it shows is that the media (see Wilts post) has persuaded the electorate that labour and Cordyn are worse than the tory's and Johnson which is unbelievable literally.
It's not black it's white
Unbelievable , really.
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If you say so hound as Wilts said you don't have to use an excuse to vote or promote for the Tories but at least own it.
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It was you who said it was unbelievable Sydney.
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It was you who said it was unbelievable Sydney.
Has anyone ever seen hound and bb together, in the same room, ever?
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We're not allowed to be in the same room together for insurance reasons. The world would lose too much intelligence should we both perish together in an unfortunate event.
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Here I was thinking you'd be uninsurable :)
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WE are uninsurable if we're in the same room together!
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https://twitter.com/BBCNWT/status/1197196302024617985?s=19
The rise in poverty isn't the Governments fault.
Because the government hasn't cut funding to local authorities due to austerity.
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Patel is dishonest and quite a piece of work really DO, it wasn't that long ago she was forced to resign
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/08/priti-patel-forced-to-resign-over-unofficial-meetings-with-israelis
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Getting away from the anti tory obsession a little bit, the Lib Dem manifesto I thought had some really interesting points about it and here is a problem. They will claim a vote for them is a remain vote - that's the wrong direction. How many potentially that don't want to remain are they pushing away despite some decent policies. The whole election is flawed.
Let's see what is said after Labour's manifesto today (lets be honest on here it'll be seen as the greatest thing ever whatever is in it).
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Getting away from the anti tory obsession a little bit, the Lib Dem manifesto I thought had some really interesting points about it and here is a problem. They will claim a vote for them is a remain vote - that's the wrong direction. How many potentially that don't want to remain are they pushing away despite some decent policies. The whole election is flawed.
Let's see what is said after Labour's manifesto today (lets be honest on here it'll be seen as the greatest thing ever whatever is in it).
Well three or four experts on the bbc lunchtime news pulled a few holes in it.
No doubt that Sydney will be telling us that these people are wrong.
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Getting away from the anti tory obsession a little bit, the Lib Dem manifesto I thought had some really interesting points about it and here is a problem. They will claim a vote for them is a remain vote - that's the wrong direction. How many potentially that don't want to remain are they pushing away despite some decent policies. The whole election is flawed.
Let's see what is said after Labour's manifesto today (lets be honest on here it'll be seen as the greatest thing ever whatever is in it).
[/quote
Well three or four experts on the bbc lunchtime news pulled a few holes in it.
No doubt that Sydney will be telling us that these people are wrong.
Bfyp post this before the manifesto was published or didn't u c that?
Added: If u show us who those experts are and what they said it can b debated, it's how a sensible debate works Ldr
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Getting away from the anti tory obsession a little bit, the Lib Dem manifesto I thought had some really interesting points about it and here is a problem. They will claim a vote for them is a remain vote - that's the wrong direction. How many potentially that don't want to remain are they pushing away despite some decent policies. The whole election is flawed.
Let's see what is said after Labour's manifesto today (lets be honest on here it'll be seen as the greatest thing ever whatever is in it).
[/quote
Well three or four experts on the bbc lunchtime news pulled a few holes in it.
No doubt that Sydney will be telling us that these people are wrong.
Bfyp post this before the manifesto was published or didn't u c that?
Well yes of course, he did actually write “let’s see what is said after Labours manifesto today”.
Clearly that indicates that it would be due later in the day.
The time on the post was a big clue too.
Why would it make a difference to what I wrote?
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So give us the details on what those three out of four experts said? Hound (not ldr)
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So give us the details on what those three out of four experts said? Hound (not ldr)
I don’t need to.
You will know exactly what was said but have conveniently not written anything about it as it contradicts your mantra.
Also I didn’t say three out of four experts.
Once again you are twisting words.
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"'Well three or four experts on the bbc lunchtime news pulled a few holes in it.''
No doubt that Sydney will be telling us that these people are wrong.
I don't know bb personally either but I picked you two as twins didn't I
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......and you were wrong about that as well.
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So give us the details on what those three out of four experts said? Hound (not ldr)
To keep the debate going a better answer may have been, that's not exactly what I said (but close enough) here is what the experts said and here is the link, but no we're back to splitting hairs and even though I said it (you) you shouldn't expect me to support what i said???
I don’t need to.
You will know exactly what was said but have conveniently not written anything about it as it contradicts your mantra.
Also I didn’t say three out of four experts.
Once again you are twisting words.
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Brilliant, classic bb answer :woohoo:
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Brilliant, classic bb answer :woohoo:
No, it was me who wrote that.
You are getting so muddled up.
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I notice there was an opinion poll came out yesterday that gave these results:
CON: 42%
LAB: 31%
LD: 15%
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1197439509022928897
yet when you look at their tables for the actual data of the actual people that they actually spoke too they gave these results:
Con - 35%
Lab - 34%
LD - 7%
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Final-Telegraph-Tables-20c11d19h.pdf
which had me wondering in this election of ever more fake news - are opinion polls intended to measure opinion - or shape opinion?
*the poll was ComRes for the Daily Telegraph and they would explain their results by saying they 'weighted' them by judging the likelihood of a particular subset of person actually voting
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The graph you posted showing how those that read the yellow press are being insulted/taken for a ride sums it up Wilts.
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"£75bn to build 150,000 new council and social homes a year, within five years''
This is an ambitious policy but a great one, it has something for everyone. It puts the nation back on a sound caring base, over time it will ensure those struggling with commercial rent get a better go, it will drive down costs for councils having to house people in 'motels' and it will be a boon for business in lots of sectors from developers to builders, to trades, to suppliers and it will give a boost to the economy. What's not to like.
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Ah polls. They have to be weighted to be representative that is how they get the polls to be correct or close to it. They have huge amounts of data, trends and analysis on what to weight for. It isnt as simple as just picking 1000 people at random and it being representative.
As for the council houses. Where are they gonna build them? Will they actually do it? This was a big policy of the devolved labour government and it didnt go well did it? My concern would be the effect on house prices but it would probably be negligible as the people after a council house probably wouldnt be looking to buy anyway.
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Remind me how many homes the CONServatives built bfyp?
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I know you won't have time so here it is
"'Tories fail to build any of 200,000 starter homes promised in 2015, says watchdog
National Audit Office says no starter homes have been built despite election pledge''
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I notice there was an opinion poll came out yesterday that gave these results:
CON: 42%
LAB: 31%
LD: 15%
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1197439509022928897
yet when you look at their tables for the actual data of the actual people that they actually spoke too they gave these results:
Con - 35%
Lab - 34%
LD - 7%
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Final-Telegraph-Tables-20c11d19h.pdf
which had me wondering in this election of ever more fake news - are opinion polls intended to measure opinion - or shape opinion?
*the poll was ComRes for the Daily Telegraph and they would explain their results by saying they 'weighted' them by judging the likelihood of a particular subset of person actually voting
I'm afraid that is a ridiculous assertion.
Polling companies never,ever take the basic results they find from their surveys as the final answer. They process them for all sorts of reasons. Including likelihood to vote, which is based on previous evidence.
That may or may not be correct, but it is done in good faith. Your implication that it isn't is outrageous and without foundation. But (and I hope it doesn't happen) if Labour loses, I expect this to be one of the myths that will be clung onto by the Left as they look to blame anything bar themselves.
It was ever thus.
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BST,
I posted this previously, but I think you need to read the link slowly and ponder.
A political tool, but also a financial tool.
"There is a tendency to take polls at face value, and assume they are a genuine attempt to measure the standing of public opinion.
There is an alternative view of how polling can be used as a tool;
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-25/brexit-big-short-how-pollsters-helped-hedge-funds-beat-the-crash
Longish read, and sometimes complicated....but so is life!"
Not a view from the left, BTW.....from the right of the financial community.
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Wilts.
By the way. That claim that the actual data was
Con - 35%
Lab - 34%
LD - 7%
Go and look at the data in the link you sent.
That WASN'T the top line figures from the poll about current voting intention. It was the figures about how the people they polled had voted in 2017. They do that as another check that they have a representative sample.
So, less of the conspiracy theories, eh?
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I'm afraid that is a ridiculous assertion.
Polling companies never,ever take the basic results they find from their surveys as the final answer. They process them for all sorts of reasons. Including likelihood to vote, which is based on previous evidence.
That may or may not be correct, but it is done in good faith. Your implication that it isn't is outrageous and without foundation. But (and I hope it doesn't happen) if Labour loses, I expect this to be one of the myths that will be clung onto by the Left as they look to blame anything bar themselves.
It was ever thus.
So asking a question is 'a ridiculous assertion' 'outrageous and without foundation' is it?
If only there had been some academic research done on this - lets check Mr Google
Can political polls alter the choices voters make on election day? Prior research on cognitive consistency suggests they can This article develops a set of hypotheses based on cognitive dissonance theory concerning the effects of exposure to the results of political polls on voters' expectations about the outcome of the election, attitudes toward the candidates, voting intentions, and choice These hypotheses were tested during experiments conducted during the 1992 U S presidential election and the 1993 New York City mayoral election. The results demonstrate that political polls do alter voting behavior Voters use political polls as a way to maintain or move to a state of cognitive consistency. Depending on which candidate voters expect to win as well as the candidate for whom they intend to vote, polls can have no effect, lead voters to change their expectations about who will win, or lead voters to actually change their preferences and their voting behavior. The results have important implications for public policy and for survey methodology.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2489665?seq=1
As the author here says - The polling industry doesn’t measure public opinion – it produces it - that's why it is an industry
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/20/polls-public-opinion-polling-industry
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"There was only one loser in this Royal Mail privatisation: the taxpayer''
This describes the Tory's in a nutshell, sell off an asset while promising profits back to the state, a veritable win win, except that the sale is to your mates at a discount, then attack workers rights and benefits so you can pay management massively and put more mates on the board.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/01/royal-mail-privatisation-taxpayer-loser
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Has Rees-Mogg been put in a straight jacket and placed into an empty room until 13th December, he appears to have gone missing in action
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The best thing anyone could do in this election is to get out and vote.
Register to vote
Register to vote to get on the electoral register, or to change your details. It usually takes about 5 minutes.
You need to be on the electoral register to vote in general elections or referendums.
https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
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Wilts.
Interesting article, that Guardian one.
Being a big picture person myself, I tend to cut through the polemic and look at the facts that the argument is predicated on. And I see he pours a lot of effort into the case that the polls got it badly wrong in 2010.
Which is interesting. Because the final 8 polls, the day before the election, had the following spread.
Con 35-38, AVE 35.9
Lab 24-29 AVE 27.7
LD 26-28 AVE 27
And the actual result?
Con 36.1
Lab 29.0
LD 23.0
Given how rapidly things moved during that campaign, I'd say that's a result. .
He also says the polls got it wrong in 2016 and 2017. They didn't. The results of the votes were within the margins of error of the polls. In 2017 in particular, the polls very well picked up the remarkable rise in Labour support during the campaign.
Anyway. That's all secondary. I assume you've seen my other post on your mistaken reading of the ComRes data? Which suggests this exchange itself is based on a false premise.
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i don't tend to go on the polls as daft as it sounds,i tend to go on the bookies odds,when it comes to money they don't often call it wrong..Although there is one decent bet out there..
Conservative Overall Majority 4/9
No overall majority 7/4
Labour Majority 25/1
Got to say i'm tempted at that 7/4
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Did you see QT last night? You can see why Labour struggle down south.
A bloke claiming he earns £80k and this puts him.in the poorest 50% of the population.
Utterly detached from reality.
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Did you see QT last night? You can see why Labour struggle down south.
A bloke claiming he earns £80k and this puts him.in the poorest 50% of the population.
Utterly detached from reality.
Did he say that.
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He said he was not in the top 5 percent and probably not in the top 50
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So, PROBABLY not in the top 50%.
Not that he WASNT in the top 50%
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https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/bbc-question-time-audience-member-who-earns-more-than-80k-believes-it-doesnt-put-him-in-the-top-50-a4293496.html
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Hound.
No. You're wrong. His precise words were.
"I am nowhere near in the top 5%, let me tell you, I'm not even in the top 50%,"
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Sorry I thought said probably my error
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I'm just correcting it on both threads.
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Anyone watching question time now? Sturgeon by far the best so far. Swinson having a hard time and losing votes every second.
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Just watched 15 minutes or so before the wife turns it over for the jungle, Johnson is getting ripped a new arsehole by the audience
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Anyone watching question time now? Sturgeon by far the best so far. Swinson having a hard time and losing votes every second.
My scores on the doors:-
1. Sturgeon
2. Corbyn
3. Johnson
4. Swinson
Sturgeon always has an advantage during these debates as she’s not looking to lead the majority of the country. She’s speaks well and comes across as honest and straightforward. Corbyn went down better than I expected and the audience seemed largely sympathetic to his views. Johnson struggles with anything non Brexit and comes over as a modern day Richard Nixon in the honesty stakes. Swinson was an utter car crash throughout.
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The issue with Sturgeon is that her central economic policy is an utter disaster. But because the majority of people in Scotland don't want to be told that, she gets a free pass.
Scotland, as an independent country, with no subsidy from the rest of the UK would have a massive deficit.
Worse, a Scotland that had a massive deficit and kept the Pound would not have an independent monetary policy. They'd do whatever the Bank of England decided.
The one thing that the EU debt crisis in 2011 showed, was that countries with massive deficits and no independent currency and Central Bank were f**ked when they tried to borrow on the money markets to fund their debt.
In simple terms, if Scotland was independent and kept the Pound (which has been SNP policy for years, they'd be in precisely the same situation as Greece in 2011.
And to make it even worse, their economic case for independence was heavily based on them getting the majority of North Sea oil income, and the price for oil never dropping below $110/barrel.
This is what the price of oil has been over the past few years.
(https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/images/2018.01.03/main.png)
The nasty part of me wishes that the SNP had won the Independence Referendum in Sept 2014. There'd have been riots within months as the consequences hit home and they'd have been pleading to rejoin the UK within a year.
Instead, the SNP was saved from its own Braveheart romantic stupidity. And now they are coming back for another go.
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One thing that’s standing out for me in this election are the number of politicians who are being caught out by journalists. On the Andrew Neil show recently he asked an SNP MP how Scotland would meet the EU fiscal requirements should they leave the Union but remain in the EU. The guy waffled about saving money by removing Trident from the Clyde. When it was pointed out that this would lose up to 12,000 jobs he went into a meltdown. He then went on to say that an independent Scotland wouldn’t move to the Euro but continue to use Sterling!! Quite insane.
He’s not alone though. I’ve seen representatives from all parties caught out. Not least the guy from the Tory party yesterday who didn’t know when their manifesto would be coming out!
Bunch of chancers the lot of ‘em.
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i don't tend to go on the polls as daft as it sounds,i tend to go on the bookies odds,when it comes to money they don't often call it wrong..Although there is one decent bet out there..
Conservative Overall Majority 4/9
No overall majority 7/4
Labour Majority 25/1
Got to say i'm tempted at that 7/4
It looks a good bet. In 2017 I thought the Polls were overestimating the Tory lead and I think they may well be doing so again. We could well end up with a HoC looking not a great deal different to how it did in 2017.
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The big possibility for Labour is the utter shit show from Swinson last night.
The way the Tories get a massive majority on 40% of the vote is for Labour and the LDs to split the anti-Tory vote. If left-leaning LD supporters watched last night, they know that Swinson is an utter shambles. So it's big decision time. Vote for her and you WILL get Johnson as unfettered PM.
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The big possibility for Labour is the utter shit show from Swinson last night.
The way the Tories get a massive majority on 40% of the vote is for Labour and the LDs to split the anti-Tory vote. If left-leaning LD supporters watched last night, they know that Swinson is an utter shambles. So it's big decision time. Vote for her and you WILL get Johnson as unfettered PM.
I admit to being biased here cos I really can’t stand the woman but she was really, really bad last night.
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In politics, like everything else, it's always easier to be right because you have fewer people to convice. That, and that alone will decide the winner of this General Election.
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Interesting article...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686639/Jeremy-Corbyn-drove-friends-flat-WANTED-Diane-Abbott-naked-bed.html
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https://apple.news/AAAgxBKs4R9eK7V5mtRZL5Q seems tories don’t want to say how they will pay for things like labour
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In politics, like everything else, it's always easier to be right because you have fewer people to convice. That, and that alone will decide the winner of this General Election.
'But it was alright, everything was alright, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother'
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Interesting article...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686639/Jeremy-Corbyn-drove-friends-flat-WANTED-Diane-Abbott-naked-bed.html
Why is it interesting
-
In politics, like everything else, it's always easier to be right because you have fewer people to convice. That, and that alone will decide the winner of this General Election.
'But it was alright, everything was alright, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother'
"No question now what has happened to the faces of the pigs. The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again: but already it was impossible to say which was which."
-
It might snow more if the EU decides to pull its nice weather from our shores.
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https://apple.news/AAAgxBKs4R9eK7V5mtRZL5Q seems tories don’t want to say how they will pay for things like labour
They didn't in 2017 and just attacked Labour saying there isn't a magic money tree.
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Fmd murdoch is going all out, but I'm sure the thinking voter will see passed his push to take over all the uk :rolleyes:
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Fmd murdoch is going all out, but I'm sure the thinking voter will see passed his push to take over all the uk :rolleyes:
Past, not passed.
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Ta bb :woohoo:
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Child Poverty to rise under the Conservatives says the Think Tank Resolution Foundation.
And yet people will STILL vote for them?
Is this a case of ‘I’m alright Jack’?
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A 51 year old man from Rotherham has been arrested on suspicion of causing grievous bodily harm for attacking a 72 year old Labour campaigner going house to house with his walking stick.
The campaigner was taken to hospital with a broken jaw.
What is wrong with these people?
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Imagine the headlines if had been a Tory campaigner?
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Especially Johnson :)
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It’s out of order people should be safe no matter what there opionion is, a Tory campaigner was also subjected to a barrage of a abuse, and was told to go somewhere else go to a white country again out of order
-
https://uk.isidewith.com/political-quiz
See who you side with.
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It would appear I'm a tory...lol
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More on the Right wing press.
This headline from The Express today.
"Boris' Tories soar as public turn on Swinson following disastrous BBC QT outing - new poll"
Actual figures in the poll show
Con +1
Lab +2
LD -3
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That Laura Kunsenberg, or however it’s spelled has been in full spin mode today since the NHS news came out
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Link pls BST
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That Laura Kunsenberg, or however it’s spelled has been in full spin mode today since the NHS news came out
Or Corbyn could have lied for political gain, I'll believe one thing, you will believe another
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https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1209762/election-poll-tracker-2019-latest-boris-johnson-jeremy-corbyn-conservative-labour-brexit/amp&ved=2ahUKEwirqa7c0IrmAhWFs3EKHUxNDFUQiJQBMAB6BAgGEAQ&usg=AOvVaw32ug8_aLM_gJD3tbyANOA6&cf=1
I hope you don't think I make shit up!
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No but you have cherry picked for effect, you would make a great spin doctor.
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How on earth have I cherry picked? I quoted their headline and the actual facts underpinning it.
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Selby.
The reason I asked who the expert was is that the media regularly have "experts" giving opinions, who are actually from politically motivated organisations.
People from the IEA are regularly on TV giving their opinions. They are an organisation set up to promote right wing economic ideas, and paid for by...well, we don't know because they refuse to publish their list of donors.
Just because someone is put forward as an expert dies not mean they don't have a political line to push.
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How on earth have I cherry picked? I quoted their headline and the actual facts underpinning it.
The focus of the paragraph is an 11 point lead to the Tories, you zoom in on a 1 point increase to their share for effect and an attempt to ridicule the headline. Spin at is finest my friend
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Like yourself and your eternal ramblings you mean. Are all the facts you plaster all over this forum facts then, because they are from experts from the labour party slant.
Your grasping at straws Billy. Labour stole the show in the last election, cornering the new media outlets, now they are being used to your disadvantage, because Labour are having to try and make the running this time, and are therefore there to be shot at when making statements, and are no longer the new kids on the block.
They are being exposed as old men with old communist ideas, that when examined always fall short, the youngsters may get carried along with it, but the middle aged, and the older natural labour supporters have seen it before, and have paid the price of the idealists when they have been hit in the pocket with strikes and unemployment before, and recognise the same things stirring to raise their head again, people pushing them on for causes that cost them in the end run, while them pushing flourish at their expense.
Admit it it is now a party of the London elite, and are losing the trust of their midlands and northern ex heartlands, areas they did nothing for when in power, lost their trust by being just as culpable of closing their industries and did very little to help the situation.
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If the Tories win this election with Brexit the main reason for an election? with parties saying they will form an alliance against Brexit in parliament.
If the Tories win with an overall majority, will the remainers at last accept they have lost again?
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Ldr.
No. I was focussing on the headline (which is all that many people will ever see). That said that the Tories had had a boost. Didn't mention the fact that Labour had had a boost twice the size.
That was my point. That the Express is not an impartial news provider. It's propagandising.
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Ldr.
No. I was focussing on the headline (which is all that many people will ever see). That said that the Tories had had a boost. Didn't mention the fact that Labour had had a boost twice the size.
That was my point. That the Express is not an impartial news provider. It's propagandising.
EDIT:
My mistake. The headline said that the Tories were soaring. In fact, if you compare that poll result with the avergae of the previous 5 by the same polling company over the past fortnight, the Tories are unchanged and Labour has risen 2.5%. But as I say, the Express isn't interested in publishing unbiased news, based on objective facts. It is a right wing propaganda rag.
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Admit it it is now a party of the London elite, and are losing the trust of their midlands and northern ex heartlands, areas they did nothing for when in power, lost their trust by being just as culpable of closing their industries and did very little to help the situation.
As opposed to say:
the Brexit Party - corporate vehicle for ex-City of London commodities trader and millionaire public school boy (Dulwich) Nigel Farage and property billionaire ex-public schoolboy Richard Tice (Uppingham)
the Tory Party - A B de P Johnson, multi-millionaire ex-'journalist' and Mayor of London (Eton & Ofxord), Sajid Javid, ex-Managing Director of Deutche Bank (Downend & Exeter) and Jacob Rees-Mogg, founder of Somerset Capital Management (Eton & Oxford)
you reckon they represent the interests of the northern working class better than ex-miner Ian Lavery or former builder and plumber Jon Trickett do you!!!
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If the Tories win with an overall majority, will the remainers at last accept they have lost again?
How will remainers have lost the election? This election isn't just about Brexit, it's about everything to do with our lives, from the NHS, education and policing to economic and foreign policy. The remainers won't have lost; Labour and the opposition parties will have lost, and over the next few years those at the bottom of the ladder will lose even more, whilst those at the top will benefit. The gap between the rich and the poor will be even greater, and we will start to see drug prices rise and the NHS suffer even more. And some of us will not let anyone who voted Tory forget about who they voted in.
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If the Tories win with an overall majority, will the remainers at last accept they have lost again?
How will remainers have lost the election? This election isn't just about Brexit, it's about everything to do with our lives, from the NHS, education and policing to economic and foreign policy. The remainers won't have lost; Labour and the opposition parties will have lost, and over the next few years those at the bottom of the ladder will lose even more, whilst those at the top will benefit. The gap between the rich and the poor will be even greater, and we will start to see drug prices rise and the NHS suffer even more. And some of us will not let anyone who voted Tory forget about who they voted in.
All these Brexiteers want us to crash out too with a no deal. I don't think any Brexiteers has ever been to a country that uses WTO rules. I have recently and items that you take for granted and buy every day/week tend to be miles dearer. That itself won't affect the richest 5% that much, it'll affect the rest of us. It always has been turkey's voting for Christmas.
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If the Tories win this election with Brexit the main reason for an election? with parties saying they will form an alliance against Brexit in parliament.
If the Tories win with an overall majority, will the remainers at last accept they have lost again?
Selby.
As things currently stand in the polls, 42% are supporting the Tories and 4% the BP. That's 46% supporting parties in favour of Johnson's Brexit.
The other 54% are supporting parties who want Ref2 or revocation of A50.
If it stays like that, will you accept that there is a substantial majority in the country who don't want Johnson's Brexit?
The number of seats the parties get is irrelevant to this discussion.
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BST, you know full well those stats do not work, plenty of leave voters wont vote tory and plenty of remainers will. It's a flawed statistic.
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https://yougov.co.uk/topics/
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Latest you gov poll has tories 148 seats more than labour and this poll predicted 93 percent right on last general election
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Worth noting that has the tories taking don valley but labour keeping don central and north with brexit party nowhere.
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I would be amazed if Labour don’t win Don Valley.
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It's the one round here that covers the slightly better off areas and doesnt actually need a huge swing. The others are pretty safe labour.
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Worth noting that has the tories taking don valley but labour keeping don central and north with brexit party nowhere.
Is this from stats that do or don't work bfyp?
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Caroline Flint isn't exactly popular in her constituency.
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
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That is true DO.
Still surprising though if she doesn’t hold the seat.
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years
Not necessarily true though SR.
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years
Not necessarily true though SR.
:woohoo:
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years
as I’ve said many times I have no problem with the Labour Party I have issues with corbyn McDonnell and there non brexit stance, and no there is no reason to think it will be any better, most people have broadband and if need dental check ups already get it free, with a decent leader and someone who won’t bow down to the unions it might be different
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years
Not necessarily true though SR.
Only one way to find out. The easy thing isn't putting ourselves through another 5 years of the last 9 years.
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years
as I’ve said many times I have no problem with the Labour Party I have issues with corbyn McDonnell and there non brexit stance, and no there is no reason to think it will be any better, most people have broadband and if need dental check ups already get it free, with a decent leader and someone who won’t bow down to the unions it might be different
Why are people so afraid of the Unions, treat workers right and there would be no problems
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https://youtu.be/M7_zfivvmwU
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You only have to read the the Sun to know that Filo, it's the 'paper' for those without an opinion :)
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I actually said bow down to the unions, certainly there is a need for unions but unfortunately some of the time they end up just wanting to much power
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Not like the tory's bp, don't you know which side to put the butter on yet? :)
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You only have to read the the Sun to know that Filo, it's the 'paper' for those without an opinion :)
Is that why you read it?
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BST, you know full well those stats do not work, plenty of leave voters wont vote tory and plenty of remainers will. It's a flawed statistic.
D'oh!
I was answering Selby's spellbindingly stupid comment.
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If it is anywhere near right hopefully labour will sort themselves out and make themselves a decent opposition party in the next election, tories have not been good for the last ten years and still would massively increase there advantage
Whatever you think of them bp they've got to be better than the past 9 years
Not necessarily true though SR.
Only one way to find out. The easy thing isn't putting ourselves through another 5 years of the last 9 years.
That is a much more reasoned and better response to my post than a dancing emoji.
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"Not necessarily true though SR''
I'm guessing there's only about two others that would have given that answer
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So the ifs have released there report, both parties are talking shite,does this surprise anyone?
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There is a major problem with the IFS's assessment of the Labour proposals.
The IFS does not perform macroeconomic analyses.
In simple terms, it assumes the Govt spending will have zero effect on growing the economy. It ignores what macroeconomists call the multiplier effect. That is where, when Govt puts money into the economy, it produces ripples which encourage more and more economic activity. It is a very well established economic mechanism.
So the IFS is ignoring what most macroeconomists would build into their models - that Labour's spending plans will produce a virtuous circle of more economic activity and therefore more tax take.
You can read a world renown professor of macroeconomics from Oxford Uni explaining the problem here.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2019/11/in-defence-of-ifs-and-why-it-cannot.html?m=1
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Thanks for link bst makes interesting reading for sure, I suppose the outcome would depend which people were right of course
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Bpool.
The professor who wrote that article has been screaming for years about the damage done to the economy through Austerity.
Back in 2010 he was predicting that we'd have the worst decade of economic performance since the 1930s if we implemented Austerity.
He's since admitted he was wrong. It's actually been the worst since the 1880s.
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Fascinating.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1199121778058113026
This is old but it's also bang up to date.
Russia of course is now run by an ex-KGB Colonel.
And Johnson will not let you see the security services report into the ways that Russia subverted the 2017 election and the 2016 Referendum.
He says we should trust him...there's no issue.
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"Not necessarily true though SR''
I'm guessing there's only about two others that would have given that answer
But SR, not necessarily true is a proper response to your statement “whatever you think of them (Labour) it has got to be better than the last 9 years”.
Your statement is a matter of opinion and in truth, things might not be better than the last nine years if Labour were to gain power.
There is no way of knowing for sure that things could be better (for who by the way).
Maybe we can revisit this in 2028 to see who is right.
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Hound.
I discussed this "let's see in ten years" thing with Tory supporters in 2010, when I was predicting that Austerity would lead to a catastrophic collapse in economic growth and productivity.
Do you accept that this is exactly what happened?
Here's GDP. I can't find a single graph that shows data right up to date, and the long term historical trend, to show just how bad the 2010s have been, so it comes in 2 graphs. This one is long-term up to 2014.
(https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/files/2015/03/Van-Reenen-Austerity-fig-1.png)
That shows the catastrophic failure to recover from recession this time as we had done from every previous recession in living memory. EXACTLY what the critics of Austerity said the result of Austerity would be.
This one shows a bit more recent data - it's not getting any better.
(https://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/GDP%20per%20head.PNG)
And productivity. THE biggest problem for all our futures.
(https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/styles/related_content_large/public/OBR%20forecasts.png?itok=S5GVrisZ)
Do you accept that the critics of Austerity were right in 2010? And those who said Austerity would lead to the economy strengthening were hopelessly and dangerously wrong? Because this is about as clear as it ever gets. And if you don't agree with that, there's no point in saying you'll look at something in another 10 years time.
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PS.
That middle graph should shame anyone and everyone who's ever been an apologist for Austerity. It shows that, by 2017-18, our economy was 20% smaller than it would have been if we'd got back onto the trend of growth that we had from the War to 2010.
That means we are producing £450-500BILLION less ever year than we should be doing. That's £7-7,500 less for every man woman and child in the country.
And that is EVERY YEAR! And unless we get the economy roaring again, instead of limping along as it is planned to do well into the 2020s under the Tory plans (growth over the next 5 years is projected to be 1-1.5% per annum, compared to the long term trend of 2.3%) then we are going to keep on pissing the future away.
This is boneheadedly stupid economics. By not properly investing in the country, we are actively choosing to make ourselves poorer for decades to come. And the people who vote for those policies nods wisely and tell themselves they are being very sensible and mature.
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BST, I know how you like to produce figures and graphs and TBH it is hard to argue with them as I don’t know where to look for alternative information.
You will probably tell me that I should take the time out to do that but I am not really bothered enough to do so.
However, when someone does post information that is contrary to what you want us to believe you are quick to dismiss them and the links or information that is put forward.
Likewise, when people on the news suggest something that doesn’t fit the mantra that you support you tell us why they are wrong.
Today on the news I just missed most of a piece in which some financial research people had suggested that both the Tory and Labour manifestos are flawed and undeliverable.
(I may have got the wording wrong, apologies if I did, but you will probably have seen it anyway)
I guess that you will tell us why the Labour one is ok and the experts are wrong.
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Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as has caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
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BST, I know how you like to produce figures and graphs and TBH it is hard to argue with them as I don’t know where to look for alternative information.
You will probably tell me that I should take the time out to do that but I am not really bothered enough to do so.
However, when someone does post information that is contrary to what you want us to believe you are quick to dismiss them and the links or information that is put forward.
Likewise, when people on the news suggest something that doesn’t fit the mantra that you support you tell us why they are wrong.
Today on the news I just missed most of a piece in which some financial research people had suggested that both the Tory and Labour manifestos are flawed and undeliverable.
(I may have got the wording wrong, apologies if I did, but you will probably have seen it anyway)
I guess that you will tell us why the Labour one is ok and the experts are wrong.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585818
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Hound.
You can look all you want for alternative information about the effect of Austerity. It doesn't exist.
What I posted is confirmed fact about what our economy has done over the past decade.
That was predicted, 10 years ago by precisely the same economists who have this week criticised the IFS's analysis of Labour's tax and spend plans.
After a while, you have to face up to whether you're serious about addressing facts and predictions from people with a track record of getting them right. Or whether you prefer to just ignore them.
So I'll ask again. Looking at those graphs, which are confirmed, unarguable facts, do you accept that we have had an appalling decade of economic performance? That that that was predictable AND predicted as a consequence of Tory economic policy?
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Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as has caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
Eh? Most polls the last few days have shown that Tories have the lead but Labour have made gains in pretty much all of them.
Take a look at Britain Elects (@britainelects): https://twitter.com/britainelects?s=09
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Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as has caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
“I don’t care that The Tories have hammered the NHS, Crime is rising, child poverty is increasing, school funding is reducing, there’s a disaster within social care... Boris says he’s going to ‘get Brexit done’ (whatever that means) and give Johnny Foreigner a good thrashing!!” You’ve got our vote Boris!!
That pretty much seems to sum up the mind set of many Tory voters
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To be fair, I'm guessing if you put most of Europe's financial graphs (GDP) up, most would show a significant downturn over the last 10 years...
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Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as has caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
“I don’t care that The Tories have hammered the NHS, Crime is rising, child poverty is increasing, school funding is reducing, there’s a disaster within social care... Boris says he’s going to ‘get Brexit done’ (whatever that means) and give Johnny Foreigner a good thrashing!!” You’ve got our vote Boris!!
That pretty much seems to sum up the mind set of many Tory voters
It's a pity that there isn't any credible alternative to he Tories, well done Momentum!
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Hound.
You can look all you want for alternative information about the effect of Austerity. It doesn't exist.
What I posted is confirmed fact about what our economy has done over the past decade.
That was predicted, 10 years ago by precisely the same economists who have this week criticised the IFS's analysis of Labour's tax and spend plans.
After a while, you have to face up to whether you're serious about addressing facts and predictions from people with a track record of getting them right. Or whether you prefer to just ignore them.
So I'll ask again. Looking at those graphs, which are confirmed, unarguable facts, do you accept that we have had an appalling decade of economic performance? That that that was predictable AND predicted as a consequence of Tory economic policy?
Yes Billy, who do you think you are coming on here and posting facts. You should be ashamed of yourself!
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Donny, don't look at the latest credible polls, you won't get to sleep tonight.
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Well Billy, old stupid here recons that the labour party played their last ace yesterday with the publishing of the papers on the NHS and the Yanks, and it has not had the reaction, and has attracted as much criticism as has caused trouble for the Tories, and you now face a couple of weeks of all your policies being dissected by the Tory press.
The publication of the latest polls show the momentum is with the Tories, and could now get a lot worse as Labour supporters realise you are losing the argument, and any alliance with the other remain parties will be a show of even more weakness, and will play into the Tories hands making Brexit the main subject.
And the Tories still have the loss of the veto, the added cost of being a member of the EU when the agreement on the rebate comes to an end, Macron's latest speeches on an integrated army, and integrated taxation to throw into the mix just before voting day. And the character assassination of the leadership ( Corbyn and his communist shadow chancellor) will be stepped up.
“I don’t care that The Tories have hammered the NHS, Crime is rising, child poverty is increasing, school funding is reducing, there’s a disaster within social care... Boris says he’s going to ‘get Brexit done’ (whatever that means) and give Johnny Foreigner a good thrashing!!” You’ve got our vote Boris!!
That pretty much seems to sum up the mind set of many Tory voters
It's a pity that there isn't any credible alternative to he Tories, well done Momentum!
Labour would not be any worse than the Tories.
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Meanwhile, Boris has again refused to commit to an interview with Andrew Neil.
And people still consider this maniac to be fit to run the country.
Wouldn’t have anything to hide would he?
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Meanwhile, Boris has again refused to commit to an interview with Andrew Neil.
And people still consider this maniac to be fit to run the country.
Wouldn’t have anything to hide would he?
People have been radicalised into believing they can do no wrong
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Meanwhile, Boris has again refused to commit to an interview with Andrew Neil.
And people still consider this maniac to be fit to run the country.
Wouldn’t have anything to hide would he?
He says it’s down to other people if he does the interview, so basically the the man that wants to lead our Country can not decide for himself, which in turn means he’s just a stooge for someone else
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50592259
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Boris sends his dad to School 😂
Report this social embed, make a complaint
The argument around Boris Johnson's no-show for the climate change debate on Channel 4 is heating up.
The TV channel is displaying ice sculptures in place of the PM and of the Brexit Party's Nigel Farage - who also didn't accept the invitation - in the studio tonight.
Channel 4 editor Ben de Pear says former environment secretary Michael Gove and the prime minister's father, Stanley Johnson, both arrived to try to persuade producers to let them on the programme instead.
Elsewhere, Buzzfeed is reporting that the PM is threatening to review Channel 4's broadcasting licence after the ice sculpture stunt.
But that's something presenter Alex Thomson says he asked Mr Gove - and Mr Gove said he knew nothing about it
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Boris sends his dad to School 😂
Report this social embed, make a complaint
The argument around Boris Johnson's no-show for the climate change debate on Channel 4 is heating up.
The TV channel is displaying ice sculptures in place of the PM and of the Brexit Party's Nigel Farage - who also didn't accept the invitation - in the studio tonight.
Channel 4 editor Ben de Pear says former environment secretary Michael Gove and the prime minister's father, Stanley Johnson, both arrived to try to persuade producers to let them on the programme instead.
Elsewhere, Buzzfeed is reporting that the PM is threatening to review Channel 4's broadcasting licence after the ice sculpture stunt.
But that's something presenter Alex Thomson says he asked Mr Gove - and Mr Gove said he knew nothing about it
You really couldn’t make this up could you! Not much defence of BoJo tonight is there? Maybe people are seeing the light! 😀
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And then the weasle Gove tweets this
“ But you were too scared to debate a Conservative and preferred to be challenged by a giant ice cube”
They’ll spin anything, even the unspinable and the sad thing is people will still vote for these scumbags
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It's a bit pretty from channel 4 but I do wonder why Boris decided not to go? I reckon they think its yet another ploy to build this everyone is against us image. Channel 4 should have let Gove on, now the headlines become about channel 4.
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It's a bit pretty from channel 4 but I do wonder why Boris decided not to go? I reckon they think its yet another ploy to build this everyone is against us image. Channel 4 should have let Gove on, now the headlines become about channel 4.
Why should they have let him in? It was a leaders debate, Gove failed twice to be a leader.
It strikes me that you are trying your best to justify you voting Tory, but know deep down it’s the wrong thing to do
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
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BST, I know how you like to produce figures and graphs and TBH it is hard to argue with them as I don’t know where to look for alternative information.
You will probably tell me that I should take the time out to do that but I am not really bothered enough to do so.
However, when someone does post information that is contrary to what you want us to believe you are quick to dismiss them and the links or information that is put forward.
Likewise, when people on the news suggest something that doesn’t fit the mantra that you support you tell us why they are wrong.
Today on the news I just missed most of a piece in which some financial research people had suggested that both the Tory and Labour manifestos are flawed and undeliverable.
(I may have got the wording wrong, apologies if I did, but you will probably have seen it anyway)
I guess that you will tell us why the Labour one is ok and the experts are wrong.
You don't know where to look, you can't be bothered, you want to balance the argument :facepalm:
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It's a bit pretty from channel 4 but I do wonder why Boris decided not to go? I reckon they think its yet another ploy to build this everyone is against us image. Channel 4 should have let Gove on, now the headlines become about channel 4.
It's obvious why he decided not to go. For the same reason that he avoided interviews in the Tory leadership campaign.
It's because his entire persona is built on a carefully constructed façade. He's infamous in Govt circles for being manically disorganised and shit at detail. So he will avoid every possible opportunity to be scrutinized that he can.
There are precious few people out there who think Johnson out-did Corbyn in the one-to-one debate and look how badly Corbyn did when torn apart by Andrew Neil. How badly do you think Johnson would come across against Neil, or on a climate debate when his side have appalling policies?
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Not at all, just providing facts
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Not at all, just providing facts
What, like the IFS has?
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Not at all, just providing facts
What, like the IFS has?
Straw clutching?
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
This question is for you Steve
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SS.
The IFS has provided an analysis which predicts the future. This explicitly excludes the macroeconomic effect of increased Govt spending. That limits its accuracy and it has been strongly criticised by the UK's leading macroeconomic expert.
By the way, a prediction of future outcomes is, of course, very different to a previous prediction of future outcomes which have now happened, allowing the predictions to be checked for accuracy. What I for one have been showing in here today is the record of our economy in the era of austerity. It is dreadful. And it was predicted, correctly, to be dreadful by precisely the same macroeconomist who has criticised the IFS's methodogy this week.
If you don't want to listen to that, then fine. But don't draw false equivalences to justify that decision.
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
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Andrew Neil will give Johnson a far easier time than he gave Corbyn.
He had a Labour MP on Politics Show today and all he was interested in was slamming home that Labours plans had been rubbished by the IFS and interrupting her constantly.
He can't help but display that he's a long term rabid Tory.
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
Five posts ago you are insinuating the IFS can predict the future, so they either can or they can’t?
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
Wow there fella, I wasn’t being a smartarse with you, it was a genuine question as I wasn’t sure that’s all.
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
One very obvious thing about this forum is that anyone who criticises Labour must be voting Tory.
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
Wouldn't be difficult to have a punt going on his record of public service so far, magic bridges, water Cannon to keep the lazy drunk working class under control, lying at every opportunity, go on Steve have a guess, do you enter P v O?
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
Five posts ago you are insinuating the IFS can predict the future, so they either can or they can’t?
OK smart guy, I'll change that to I can't predict the future. As regards the IFS, it's their job to make predictions.
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
One very obvious thing about this forum is that anyone who criticises Labour must be voting Tory.
That's a very silly thing to say.
But here is a fact, for anyone deciding how to vote.
There are only two post-election possibilities.
1) Boris Johnson is PM
2) There is a Labour PM
(The only reason I don't say Corbyn for 2 is that there are rumours that smaller parties might insist on Corbyn being replaced as a price for supporting a Labour minority Govt. I don't believe it will happen but it's a possibility.)
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
Wouldn't be difficult to have a punt going on his record of public service so far, magic bridges, water Cannon to keep the lazy drunk working class under control, lying at every opportunity, go on Steve have a guess, do you enter P v O?
Yes Sydney, I do enter the P v O; I'm f*cking rubbish at it; 7 points so far.
I've been rubbish at predicting the result of this GE as well. I've said on here that it will be a hung parliament, and that looks like being wrong, as the Labour Party seem to be on course for a real dicking.
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Do you think Johnson will be a good leader for the country SS?
I don't know Herbert, I'm not clairvoyant. Nobody can predict the future. As from my past posts, it must be pretty obvious to you that I won't be voting for him.
One very obvious thing about this forum is that anyone who criticises Labour must be voting Tory.
That's a very silly thing to say.
But here is a fact, for anyone deciding how to vote.
There are only two post-election possibilities.
1) Boris Johnson is PM
2) There is a Labour PM
(The only reason I don't say Corbyn for 2 is that there are rumours that smaller parties might insist on Corbyn being replaced as a price for supporting a Labour minority Govt. I don't believe it will happen but it's a possibility.)
There is no need to talk down to me BST, like a headmaster speaking to a pupil.
I am well aware there are only two possible outcomes for PM, I said the same thing a few days ago on here.
In my view there is no chance of Corbyn becoming PM.
To be honest, I don’t fancy either of them to do the job.
I am very concerned for our futures.
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Hound.
Then if you understand that, why did you make that previous comment? Clearly, anyone who doesn't want a Labour PM, by definition wants Johnson as PM. That's an inescapable fact.
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I see the Tories have done it again and put out a Facebook ad featuring BBC presenters arguing that chaotic debates over Brexit can be avoided if people vote Conservative. I think it's now been taken down after running for 24 hours.
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Andrew Neil will give Johnson a far easier time than he gave Corbyn.
He had a Labour MP on Politics Show today and all he was interested in was slamming home that Labours plans had been rubbished by the IFS and interrupting her constantly.
He can't help but display that he's a long term rabid Tory.
Neal is doing all Party Leaders but Johnson is being "done" " roasted" or whatever by Kuennsberg. Typical
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Yesterday Johnson said that any Tory member who committed racist abuse would be expelled 'first bounce'.
Yesterday evening at a hustings meeting a Tory candidate said to his Labour rival, a Sikh, that he was 'talking through his turban'.
There is what Johnson says - and there is what Johnson does.
https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1199979628783423488
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Hound.
Then if you understand that, why did you make that previous comment? Clearly, anyone who doesn't want a Labour PM, by definition wants Johnson as PM. That's an inescapable fact.
I made my comment because it is also an inescapable fact that certain posters jump on others who have a pop at anything that I and others write that goes against the Labour supporters views.
It has been implied that anyone who votes for anyone but Labour is an idiot.
As for your final point, “anyone who doesn’t want a a Labour PM, by definition wants Johnson as PM”:
Well I guess it could be construed to be like that but I assume you are still thinking that I will be voting Tory, as some others seem to also think.
I have told you before that I haven’t decided yet who to vote for.
For the first time ever I am considering not bothering to vote.
I have time to decide yet.
It is a dilemma for me because I also voted to remain in the EU.
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Hound.
No. I don't assume you're voting Tory. But as I've said elsewhere, if you don't actively support a Labour PM as the outcome, then by definition you are supporting Johnson as PM. Whether actively or passively, that's how it is. That's the decision every one of us has to take.
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.......and as I have said elsewhere, that is not strictly true.
In Don Valley if I vote for Labour then they win by one more vote.
A vote for someone else and Labour win by one less vote.
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Hound. Check that other thread. That is now flat wrong according to YouGov
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Remind me, how many days has it been since the arch-hypocrite coward Johnson was taunting others by telling them to 'man up'?
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Just been reading about a failing state where the leader tried to shut down Parliament and refuses to face the press and even wants to shut down TV stations that don’t agree with him.
Oh sorry -that’s us.
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Just been reading about a failing state where the leader tried to shut down Parliament and refuses to face the press and even wants to shut down TV stations that don’t agree with him.
Oh sorry -that’s us.
Too far fetched, the book will never sell
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Remind me, how many days has it been since the arch-hypocrite coward Johnson was taunting others by telling them to 'man up'?
Is it 10 billion ? I only ask as Corbyn said it was 8 Billion so Pinocchio will have trumped that by now
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Remind me, how many days has it been since the arch-hypocrite coward Johnson was taunting others by telling them to 'man up'?
What the f*ck has that to do with anything I've said?
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Remind me, how many days has it been since the arch-hypocrite coward Johnson was taunting others by telling them to 'man up'?
What the f*ck has that to do with anything I've said?
Because no-one has to clutch straws when Johnson is too yellow to act by his own standards.
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By God there's some straw clutching going on tonight on here.
Remind me, how many days has it been since the arch-hypocrite coward Johnson was taunting others by telling them to 'man up'?
What the f*ck has that to do with anything I've said?
Because no-one has to clutch straws when Johnson is too yellow to act by his own standards.
Dec 12th Glynn. Don't be late.
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In the 2017 GE a Tory candidate had one of his election posters defaced with an ant-Tory message. The culprit has yet to be identified.
In this GE the same Tory candidate has had the same election poster further defaced by the addition of a swastika - whilst the poster was in his sole possession in his house. The culprit has yet to be identified.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/simon-hart-pembrokeshire-swastika-graffiti-nazi-sympathy-election-christina-rees-a9226291.html
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The deceit just goes on and on.
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The first bit of 'graffiti' was spot on, the second bit looks like a confession :)
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I've never agreed with those who say all politicians lie.
But f**k me, it's getting more prevalent these days.
This. This is f**king disgraceful.
https://mobile.twitter.com/joswinson/status/1201950272639164416
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Aye that is a lie, it's clear to me that a vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit.
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It's a vote against JOHNSON'S Brexit. Of course.
It's a vote for a confirmatory referendum on a specific, defined form of Brexit. If the people decide they don't want that, don't you think that would be an acceptable outcome?
Or. Put it another way. Where is your evidence that a majority in the country want Johnson's Brexit?
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I dont think there IS a majority and no matter how many times they mention it and trot out "the will of the British people" - I think they too know a second ref would probably deliver a Remain vote.
Thats why they tried to avoid one at all costs. They f****d the Electorate by dissing the original Referendum 75/6 without a vote being cast until 2016 and want to deliver the coup de grace now
....and thats where the oppostion blew their big chance when Johnson was desperate to get his deal through ANY WAY he could. Labour and Swinson SHOULD have said ok we guarantee to pass it through every stage in the 3 days we have got as long as it then goes to the people and is a simple Johnsons deal or Remain
They would have had to duck it and everyone would have known why
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It's a vote against JOHNSON'S Brexit. Of course.
It's a vote for a confirmatory referendum on a specific, defined form of Brexit. If the people decide they don't want that, don't you think that would be an acceptable outcome?
Or. Put it another way. Where is your evidence that a majority in the country want Johnson's Brexit?
No, I don't think it would be acceptable, I'm fairly laid back on it albeit would be frustrated, but there are many out there who are not that laid back and there is a serious risk of major disorder, surely that is concerning.
I do not agree with an approach of "well this deal isn't right so let's stop the whole thing".
I do agree there is no majority though and some people will have to accept it won't go there way. Where we will probably agree is it has opened a chasm that will exist for a long period of time.
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Aye that is a lie, it's clear to me that a vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit.
I’m voting Labour AND feel that Brexit should go ahead. Just not Johnson’s car crash Brexit.
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I see The Mail is running a story on Corbyn, his IRA links and anti-Semite leanings.... It doesn't make good reading - and is one of the main reasons that many people won't vote Labour - at least not whilst JC is leading the party.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7752923/Jeremy-Corbyn-bomb-makers-friend-IRA-terrorist-admirer-Corbyn.html
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I see The Mail is running a story on Corbyn, his IRA links and anti-Semite leanings.... It doesn't make good reading - and is one of the main reasons that many people won't vote Labour - at least not whilst JC is leading the party.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7752923/Jeremy-Corbyn-bomb-makers-friend-IRA-terrorist-admirer-Corbyn.html
The Daily Mail? That’ll be a fair and balanced piece then.
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I see The Mail is running a story on Corbyn, his IRA links and anti-Semite leanings.... It doesn't make good reading - and is one of the main reasons that many people won't vote Labour - at least not whilst JC is leading the party.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7752923/Jeremy-Corbyn-bomb-makers-friend-IRA-terrorist-admirer-Corbyn.html
The Daily Mail? That’ll be a fair and balanced piece then.
Just putting it out there............. there's been many links to Boris bashing stories - so surely it's only fair to show both sides....?
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I see The Mail is running a story on Corbyn, his IRA links and anti-Semite leanings.... It doesn't make good reading - and is one of the main reasons that many people won't vote Labour - at least not whilst JC is leading the party.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7752923/Jeremy-Corbyn-bomb-makers-friend-IRA-terrorist-admirer-Corbyn.html
The Mail? Running a story on anti-Semitism? That's the same Mail that ran approving articles about Hitler and complained about Jews coming to the UK from Germany and bringing diseases with them.
An utterly, utterly, disgusting rag.
And if you want to see where the REAL cesspit of racism is in this country, look in their Comments sections.
https://medium.com/@bestofthemail/i-was-upvoted-for-posting-nazi-propaganda-about-migrants-in-the-daily-mail-8996899810b4
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I see The Mail is running a story on Corbyn, his IRA links and anti-Semite leanings.... It doesn't make good reading - and is one of the main reasons that many people won't vote Labour - at least not whilst JC is leading the party.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7752923/Jeremy-Corbyn-bomb-makers-friend-IRA-terrorist-admirer-Corbyn.html
The Mail? Running a story on anti-Semitism? That's the same Mail that ran approving articles about Hitler and complained about Jews coming to the UK from Germany and bringing diseases with them.
An utterly, utterly, disgusting rag.
And if you want to see where the REAL cesspit of racism is in this country, look in their Comments sections.
https://medium.com/@bestofthemail/i-was-upvoted-for-posting-nazi-propaganda-about-migrants-in-the-daily-mail-8996899810b4
Not saying that everything in the Daily mail is unbiased (or at least not as unbiased as some on here....) but thought it was fair to post a story that if correct doesn't paint Corbyn well....... No doubt there will be denials and counter arguments; however, it's good to show both sides - don't you agree?
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MM
Ok. I've heard that Mail piece is making waves, so I've gone against my policy of never reading it (because it deliberately and knowingly misled it's readers about my company in an article a few years ago, so I assume it never prints the truth).
The premise of that article appears to be that there is a deep connection between Corbyn and a convicted IRA man, who also happens to be a vicious Jew hater.
Let's take the anti-Semitism thing first.
The evidence they cite is a letter in which the IRA man writes:
'The tragedy of the Zionist final solution to the Palestinian problem recalls the horrors of Nazism itself.
'The fact the Jews were persecuted and butchered by fascists and racists does not give them the right to inflict such treatment on a totally different people.'
The journalist then says 'His language is remarkably similar to that used by anti-Semites in Mr Corbyn's current circle.'
I must be missing something here because I'm not seeing raging anti-Semitism. I'm seeing (what I would say is entirely justified) severe criticism of the policy of the Israeli state against the Palestinians.
Ok. Onto Corbyn's connections with her man.
That appears to be a series of nudge-nudge rumours. This bit in particular is shocking journalism.
"(The IRA man's letters from prison) reveal how his morale improved during imprisonment thanks to the efforts of sympathisers prepared to help him and his girlfriend start a new life. One of them was Jeremy Corbyn."
No evidence given to support that final sentence. None whatsoever.
If this is the Mail's silver bullet for Corbyn, it's very poor quality stuff. But then they have previous in writing this sort of shite. Remember the article before the 2015 Election about how Ed Milliband's dad hated Britain apparently. The evidence being that he was on the far left and had written books about how the rich elite screw down the workers. And if course, while the Mail was supporting Hitler, Milliband's dad had signed up and served throughout WWII in the Royal Navy.
As I say. A disgusting propaganda rag.
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Analysis / Bias
The Daily Mail is a known a supporter of the Conservatives. They are also one of the pro-Brexit tabloids and according to a Reuters article, the Daily Mail published a controversial headline in response to a Brexit Court ruling criticizing the judges, by branding them as ‘enemies of the people’ According to CNBC, the Daily mail also has been criticized by Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales for publishing fake news articles and “hyped up” headlines and “mastered the art of running stories that aren’t true’”. Further, CNBC reported that DMG media responded by saying “DailyMail.com is the very antithesis of click-bait and hype headlines. We just tell stories better than anyone else.”
In review, the Daily Mail tends to publish stories utilizing sensationalized headlines with emotionally loaded wordings such as “Woman, 63, ‘becomes PREGNANT in the mouth’ with baby squid after eating calamari”, which is a misleading headline. In 2017, Wikipedia banned the Daily Mail as an ‘unreliable’ source. When it comes to sourcing information they use minimal hyperlinked sourcing as well as sourcing to themselves. In general, most stories favor the right, however the Daily Mail will report either side if the story is sensational enough.
A factual search reveals that the Daily Mail has a poor track record with fact checkers. Here are a few failed fact checks:
• Did the Daily Mail Delete a Story Reporting the U.S. Planned to Blame Assad for ‘False Flag’ Chemical Attacks? – Mostly True
• “Google search spike suggests many people don’t know why they voted for Brexit.” – Mostly False
• Is Using ‘Bug Spray’ to Get High an Alarming New Trend? – Mostly False
• Did a White House Intern Make the ‘White Power’ Hand Gesture? – Unproven
• Did ‘Melbourne Antifa’ Claim Responsibility for the Vegas Massacre? – False
• Are Vigilante Protesters Digging Up Confederate Graves After Charlottesville Clashes? – Mostly False
• “Racist picture of Democrat North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper emerges just days after he called on Ralph Northam to resign – DAILY MAIL.” – Pants on Fire
Overall, we rate Daily Mail Questionable due to numerous failed fact checks and poor sourcing of information. (7/19/2016) Updated (M. Huitsing 10/24/2019)
Source: https://www.dailymail.co.uk
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Purely for the purpose of impartiality here, but there are other outlets who suggest that Corbyn has been less than authoritarian against antisemitism...
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-leaked-document-casts-doubt-on-corbyn-antisemitism-claim
Additionally his IRA sympathies are well documented - I'm sure that you are well aware of these - there are literally dozens of articles associating him with the IRA.
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I know that BST and Sydney will no doubt belittle me now - as is their will; however, I think it's important in a thread entitled 'General Election 2019 - 12th December' that both sides are reflected. I've personally got little faith in either leader of the two main parties and have also slated Boris, but I also think it is important to reflect all sides equally.
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MM
Ok. I've heard that Mail piece is making waves, so I've gone against my policy of never reading it (because it deliberately and knowingly misled it's readers about my company in an article a few years ago, so I assume it never prints the truth).
Seperate topic but I totally understand this, it's actually part of my reason for disliking Corbyn's labour so much having had to watch him spout about the 2 companies I worked for a load of basic rubbish. He either didn't understand the position or is lying, both are worrying, that and socialist campaigners physically celebrating outside the office. I wish I could go in to it more..... Note that is personal to my experience I have no doubt and accept fully the same to be said about politicians of other parties. It certainly opens your eyes when you're involved in political and news stories how much the media and press at best bend the truth but blatantly misinform and it really doesn't want you to have involvment with any of them.
As for the rubbish about Corbyn, he has some issues and some past, but I don't feel it's anything new and there's more important stuff to talk about.
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MM
Yes. I agree that Corbyn supported the IRA. I've written about it on here several times.
That's not the issue here. The issue is whether there is anything in that article that adds anything of substance to the discussion.
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MM
Yes. I agree that Corbyn supported the IRA. I've written about it on here several times.
That's not my issue here. My issue is whether there is anything in that article that adds anything of substance to the discussion.
corrected for you.
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Thank you MM. You're right.
I'll give you my take.
The Tory papers chucked the kitchen sink at Corbyn on the issue of the IRA in 2017 and none of it worked. I think that baffled them.
They now think they've hit a nerve on anti-Semitism. So they are re-doing the attack with a seasoning of anti-Semitism. It seems to have worked for you because your original post talks about the IRA man having anti-Semitic leanings, when in fact there is nothing whatsoever in that article that in any way justifies that.
My bigger issue is that the Mail is simply not trustworthy on reporting issues. I don't say that because it is a right wing paper. I say it from personal experience.
I was involved in a major R&D project a few years ago, involving partners from 7 EU countries, with part funding from the EU. At the end of the project, we put out a press release that got worldwide attention. Papers all round the world quoted our press release verbatim. The Mail was the one and only "newspaper" in the world which surgically removed all reference to other EU country partners and to the EU funding. That was an eye opener for me. That was the day I realised the Mail wasn't an ordinary newspaper. It was a propaganda sheet carefully deciding what information it would hide from its readers. It is beyond disgusting, and deeply, deeply dangerous to democracy.
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Thank you MM. You're right.
I'll give you my take.
The Tory papers chucked the kitchen sink at Corbyn on the issue of the IRA in 2017 and none of it worked. I think that baffled them.
They now think they've hit a nerve on anti-Semitism. So they are re-doing the attack with a seasoning of anti-Semitism. It seems to have worked for you because your original post talks about the IRA man having anti-Semitic leanings, when in fact there is nothing whatsoever in that article that in any way justifies that.
My bigger issue is that the Mail is simply not trustworthy on reporting issues. I don't say that because it is a right wing paper. I say it from personal experience.
I was involved in a major R&D project a few years ago, involving partners from 7 EU countries, with part funding from the EU. At the end of the project, we put out a press release that got worldwide attention. Papers all round the world quoted our press release verbatim. The Mail was the one and only "newspaper" in the world which surgically removed all reference to other EU country partners and to the EU funding. That was an eye opener for me. That was the day I realised the Mail wasn't an ordinary newspaper. It was a propaganda sheet carefully deciding what information it would hide from its readers. It is beyond disgusting, and deeply, deeply dangerous to democracy.
My original post doesn't say anything about the IRA man - purely about Corbyn's links and anti-semetic leanings - I also say it's a story by the Daily Mail....
I understand that - and it obviously doesn't match your views - however, many of your own views might not appeal to others, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be heard or seen
Hence I put up the article for people to view and decide upon......... with impartiality.
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A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
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And here's a very interesting piece
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/04/bishop-auckland-toys-with-tories-in-once-unthinkable-revolution-labour?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_AquaMail
The downtrodden, in a downtrodden area look like voting for the very people responsible for them being downtrodden in the first place!
The Brain Dead of Britain, deserve all they get! Sadly, they screw everyone else in the process.
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A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link...
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Corbyn isn't anti-semitic, he might be anti-Israel for their persecution of the Palestinians but it's nothing to do with their religion. People in the Labour party may be anti-semitic but as long as they're dealing with that.
I guess it's no surprise that Corbyn keeps being on the front pages when his dogs mother's owners cousins grandfather is an anti-semite but when Boris Johnson talks of watermelon smiles, bumboys, is islamaphobic, etc it's all ignored.
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I take the point about the daily mail it is full of rubbish at the best of times and i haven't bothered to even read the article in question because i can imagine what it consists off just reading the posts on this forum..
However My opinions on Corbyn's.Mcdonnels and Abbots past comments on the IRA which are in the public domain are very strong with hatred i wont despute.And regardless of their politics,manifesto's plans etc I couldnt put a cross in their box based on that alone..
That of course is because i'm ex military and have experience first hand of that situation,i've known people killed in service by them.One of my old military friends was Irish and they even knee capped his brother because he was in service..As far as i'm concerned the Labour front bench are traitors (strong i know) and i dont want to see them anywhere near power...How can anybody expect me to want to vote for a front bench who publically supported people who at the time were actively trying to kill me and my friends..
The anti semitism thing is different,i believe that situation has been used as a political football against Labour and a stick to constantly beat them with.Of course there has been cases and it's well known Corbyn has sympathy's to the Palestinian cause as if i'm honest so do i.However not to the extent it's portrayed
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A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link...
My browser won't open that link. Can you cut and paste the relevant examples and I'll pass them on to my friend? Thanks.
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A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link...
My browser won't open that link. Can you cut and paste the relevant examples and I'll pass them on to my friend? Thanks.
Nope........ perhaps send the link to your friend.
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A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link...
My browser won't open that link. Can you cut and paste the relevant examples and I'll pass them on to my friend? Thanks.
Nope........ perhaps send the link to your friend.
OK, will do that.
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WingCo
Excellent post and I could not argue with any of that. At some time, all conflicts have to fade into the past. McGuiness and Paisley ended up as friends, which says a hell of a lot. But I understand how raw those memories must be for you.
MM
Apologies if I misconstrued your original post.
EDIT. On reflection, of course I don't understand that. That's a stupid thing for me to have said. I never experienced it and I hope I never do, so I can't possibly fully understand what that feels like.
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A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link...
My browser won't open that link. Can you cut and paste the relevant examples and I'll pass them on to my friend? Thanks.
Nope........ perhaps send the link to your friend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm, sent the link to my friend and he has the same problem opening it!
I tried googling it and managed to open it that way, and guess what..........................................
There are no examples of Labour Party anti-Semitism whatsoever in that article - so no wonder you were 'reluctant' to cut and paste those non existent examples! Just a headline, some people are easily swayed.
-
I'm going out canvassing in a bit with Rosie Winterton. It'll be interesting to see what Armthorpe residents mek of it all
-
A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link...
My browser won't open that link. Can you cut and paste the relevant examples and I'll pass them on to my friend? Thanks.
Nope........ perhaps send the link to your friend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm, sent the link to my friend and he has the same problem opening it!
I tried googling it and managed to open it that way, and guess what..........................................
There are no examples of Labour Party anti-Semitism whatsoever in that article - so no wonder you were 'reluctant' to cut and paste those non existent examples! Just a headline, some people are easily swayed.
Not sure what you're Hmmmmmmmm-ing? If you read my post, it said "I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link..." I'm not sure which article you read; however, for you and the benefit of impartiality - yet again............ here is the article in full - in which it clearly states that there were hundreds of complaints of antisemitism against members - the large majority of which had not been investigated by the party.
Jeremy Corbyn faced veteran interviewer Andrew Neil this week, who grilled him on the party’s handling of antisemitism.
The Labour leader was challenged on a case involving a member who shared a video that cast doubt on whether six million Jews died in the Holocaust — but who only received a “reminder of conduct” letter from the party.
Mr Corbyn said he had “strengthened processes” since then and that “during the last few months” he had “proposed that egregious cases should be fast-tracked”.
But FactCheck has seen an internal Labour party document showing that as recently as mid-October, a senior party insider didn’t expect the policy to be implemented until after the general election.
We asked Labour to show us any proof of its having been introduced, but they did not respond to FactCheck’s requests.
Mr Corbyn has also claimed during this election campaign that: “Where anyone has committed any antisemitic acts or made any antisemitic statements, they are either suspended or expelled from the party and we have investigated every single case.”
But Labour’s own general secretary wrote to MPs in February this year setting out dozens of cases where members were found to have been antisemitic, but were not suspended or expelled from the party. The same letter also revealed that hundreds of complaints of antisemitism had not been formally investigated.
Update: what do Labour say?
Since we published this article, Labour have contacted FactCheck to say that the fast-track expulsion policy is now in use and “a number of people have been expelled under those new powers” this month.
We asked for evidence of this and they pointed us to remarks made by Labour’s General Secretary Jennie Formby in Jewish News on November 27: “Just this month a number of members have been expelled using these new powers.” The article was published after Mr Corbyn’s BBC interview, and after we first contacted Labour to ask about the new policy.
Responding to this FactCheck article after its publication, a Labour spokesperson said: “This is nonsense. Channel 4 FactCheck has not provided us with a document or with any evidence to back up its claim but the fact is, this alleged document from more than one month ago is out of date because the new fast-track expulsion procedures are already in use and a number of people have been expelled under those new powers.
“FactCheck has failed in its basic task to check the facts. In line with the Macpherson Principle, all complaints of antisemitism are recorded as such and we look into each complaint we receive. Some complaints do not meet the threshold for a potential breach of the Party’s rules, so they do not proceed beyond that initial stage after they have been recorded and reviewed.”
‘Strengthened processes’
In July this year, Mr Corbyn put forward proposals that would allow Labour’s ruling National Executive Committee (NEC) to set up a special panel to handle cases of antisemitism.
The plan is to give the NEC powers to expel members where appropriate — something that’s currently reserved for the party’s National Constitutional Committee.
We understand this is what Mr Corbyn was referring to when he told Andrew Neil that he had “strengthened processes” and had “proposed egregious cases should be fast-tracked” at some point “in the summer”.
As ever with rule-changes of this kind, the policy needed approval at the Labour party conference, which it got on 21 September.
But FactCheck has seen an internal Labour party document that shows that as recently as October, the new policy had yet to be implemented — and that a senior figure did not expect it to take effect until after the general election.
So Mr Corbyn claims to have “strengthened processes”, but the evidence we’ve seen casts doubt on whether the new policy has actually taken effect.
Antisemites ‘are either suspended or expelled’
It’s not the only time in this election campaign that Mr Corbyn has faced questions on antisemitism.
Last week, he said in the ITV leaders’ debate that: “Where anyone has committed any antisemitic acts or made any antisemitic statements, they are either suspended or expelled from the party and we have investigated every single case.”
But that is at odds with a letter from his party’s general secretary, Jennie Formby, who told Labour MPs that between April 2018 and February 2019, some 16 members were “issued with a formal NEC warning” for antisemitism, 25 got a “reminder of conduct” from the ruling body.
In other words, dozens of Labour members were given sanctions other than suspension or expulsion for antisemitism as recently as 2018-19.
‘We have investigated every single case’
Mr Corbyn was also challenged on his claim that Labour “have investigated every single case” of antisemitism — which the chief rabbi Ephraim Mirvis described as “a mendacious fiction”.
Responding to Rabbi Mirvis’ comments, Mr Corbyn told the BBC: “No, he’s not right. Because he would have to produce the evidence to say that’s mendacious.”
But Ms Formby’s letter from February this year reveals that 220 complaints of antisemitism against members “did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules to proceed with an investigation”.
In any event, claiming to have “investigated every single case” is not as impressive as it seems.
Sources with detailed knowledge of Labour party processes told FactCheck that by definition, a complaint only becomes a “case” once an investigation is launched.
So if you thought Mr Corbyn’s claim that the party has “investigated every single case” meant that every allegation of antisemitism has received a full investigation by the Labour party, you’d be wrong.
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When someone posts a link to a Tory supporting newspaper it is immediately denounced by the Labour supporters on here as rubbish and untrue.
Yet those same people bombard us with articles from such as the Guardian and expect us to believe that everything therein is the gospel truth.
Strange that.
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They know they both lie Hound, but think that only one parties lies are the truth. It is called brain washing, or is it brain dead?
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A very good friend of mine has written, twice now, to the Chief Rabbi asking for details of any specific examples of anti-Semitism in the Labour party as he is unable to find any specific examples anywhere.
To date, the Chief Rabbi hasn't replied.
Strange, if the Labour Party was full of anti-Semitism you'd think the CR would be able to give a few concrete examples!
I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link...
My browser won't open that link. Can you cut and paste the relevant examples and I'll pass them on to my friend? Thanks.
Nope........ perhaps send the link to your friend.
Hmmmmmmmmmm, sent the link to my friend and he has the same problem opening it!
I tried googling it and managed to open it that way, and guess what..........................................
There are no examples of Labour Party anti-Semitism whatsoever in that article - so no wonder you were 'reluctant' to cut and paste those non existent examples! Just a headline, some people are easily swayed.
Not sure what you're Hmmmmmmmm-ing? If you read my post, it said "I'm not taking sides here - but if you want details to it, my earlier post had a link..." I'm not sure which article you read; however, for you and the benefit of impartiality - yet again............ here is the article in full - in which it clearly states that there were hundreds of complaints of antisemitism against members - the large majority of which had not been investigated by the party.
Jeremy Corbyn faced veteran interviewer Andrew Neil this week, who grilled him on the party’s handling of antisemitism.
The Labour leader was challenged on a case involving a member who shared a video that cast doubt on whether six million Jews died in the Holocaust — but who only received a “reminder of conduct” letter from the party.
Mr Corbyn said he had “strengthened processes” since then and that “during the last few months” he had “proposed that egregious cases should be fast-tracked”.
But FactCheck has seen an internal Labour party document showing that as recently as mid-October, a senior party insider didn’t expect the policy to be implemented until after the general election.
We asked Labour to show us any proof of its having been introduced, but they did not respond to FactCheck’s requests.
Mr Corbyn has also claimed during this election campaign that: “Where anyone has committed any antisemitic acts or made any antisemitic statements, they are either suspended or expelled from the party and we have investigated every single case.”
But Labour’s own general secretary wrote to MPs in February this year setting out dozens of cases where members were found to have been antisemitic, but were not suspended or expelled from the party. The same letter also revealed that hundreds of complaints of antisemitism had not been formally investigated.
Update: what do Labour say?
Since we published this article, Labour have contacted FactCheck to say that the fast-track expulsion policy is now in use and “a number of people have been expelled under those new powers” this month.
We asked for evidence of this and they pointed us to remarks made by Labour’s General Secretary Jennie Formby in Jewish News on November 27: “Just this month a number of members have been expelled using these new powers.” The article was published after Mr Corbyn’s BBC interview, and after we first contacted Labour to ask about the new policy.
Responding to this FactCheck article after its publication, a Labour spokesperson said: “This is nonsense. Channel 4 FactCheck has not provided us with a document or with any evidence to back up its claim but the fact is, this alleged document from more than one month ago is out of date because the new fast-track expulsion procedures are already in use and a number of people have been expelled under those new powers.
“FactCheck has failed in its basic task to check the facts. In line with the Macpherson Principle, all complaints of antisemitism are recorded as such and we look into each complaint we receive. Some complaints do not meet the threshold for a potential breach of the Party’s rules, so they do not proceed beyond that initial stage after they have been recorded and reviewed.”
‘Strengthened processes’
In July this year, Mr Corbyn put forward proposals that would allow Labour’s ruling National Executive Committee (NEC) to set up a special panel to handle cases of antisemitism.
The plan is to give the NEC powers to expel members where appropriate — something that’s currently reserved for the party’s National Constitutional Committee.
We understand this is what Mr Corbyn was referring to when he told Andrew Neil that he had “strengthened processes” and had “proposed egregious cases should be fast-tracked” at some point “in the summer”.
As ever with rule-changes of this kind, the policy needed approval at the Labour party conference, which it got on 21 September.
But FactCheck has seen an internal Labour party document that shows that as recently as October, the new policy had yet to be implemented — and that a senior figure did not expect it to take effect until after the general election.
So Mr Corbyn claims to have “strengthened processes”, but the evidence we’ve seen casts doubt on whether the new policy has actually taken effect.
Antisemites ‘are either suspended or expelled’
It’s not the only time in this election campaign that Mr Corbyn has faced questions on antisemitism.
Last week, he said in the ITV leaders’ debate that: “Where anyone has committed any antisemitic acts or made any antisemitic statements, they are either suspended or expelled from the party and we have investigated every single case.”
But that is at odds with a letter from his party’s general secretary, Jennie Formby, who told Labour MPs that between April 2018 and February 2019, some 16 members were “issued with a formal NEC warning” for antisemitism, 25 got a “reminder of conduct” from the ruling body.
In other words, dozens of Labour members were given sanctions other than suspension or expulsion for antisemitism as recently as 2018-19.
‘We have investigated every single case’
Mr Corbyn was also challenged on his claim that Labour “have investigated every single case” of antisemitism — which the chief rabbi Ephraim Mirvis described as “a mendacious fiction”.
Responding to Rabbi Mirvis’ comments, Mr Corbyn told the BBC: “No, he’s not right. Because he would have to produce the evidence to say that’s mendacious.”
But Ms Formby’s letter from February this year reveals that 220 complaints of antisemitism against members “did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules to proceed with an investigation”.
In any event, claiming to have “investigated every single case” is not as impressive as it seems.
Sources with detailed knowledge of Labour party processes told FactCheck that by definition, a complaint only becomes a “case” once an investigation is launched.
So if you thought Mr Corbyn’s claim that the party has “investigated every single case” meant that every allegation of antisemitism has received a full investigation by the Labour party, you’d be wrong.
Thank you MM, pity you couldn't have done that earlier, would have saved much confusion. I will now pass that onto my friend as he has a genuine interest in this issue.
It would appear that I was googling the link you posted "https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7752923/Jeremy-Corbyn-bomb-makers-friend-IRA-terrorist-admirer-Corbyn.html" and which neither I nor my friend could open, and from which my google search revealed no examples of Labour Party ant-Semitism.
My sincere apologies for missing your subsequent link, which I'm sure he will find helpful.
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That's what I've been trying to portray all along. They claim nothing in the Tory papers is credible, thus disregard them, and use completely biased rags like The Guardian, which, despite claims to be accurate, is totally unfair due to its absolute one-sidedness.
Then the cheeky buggers continually ask for links to back up your points!
You can't make it up, really!
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I dont read The Mail (or Express) but can anyone provide me with a link to a story they have done on racism/Islamaphobia in the Tory Party?
Or the news articles they have done on the Tory candidates expelled for anti-semitism?
Thanks
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That's what I've been trying to portray all along. They claim nothing in the Tory papers is credible, thus disregard them, and use completely biased rags like The Guardian, which, despite claims to be accurate, is totally unfair due to its absolute one-sidedness.
Then the cheeky buggers continually ask for links to back up your points!
You can't make it up, really!
Boris could. 😉🙄
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When you hear folk saying Labour are going to be spending recklessly and will crash the economy, here's what the IFS says the parties' policies will do to the national debt.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iHIzk_JxTTo/XeWemVC4M1I/AAAAAAAACYQ/a8mQmC3h59gUtsH4ovnI5_RtDkMeq177gCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/IFS.JPG)
You want reckless? Dominic Raab was saying just this week that No Deal is still on the table. That would increase the national debt because of massively weakened economic growth. Labour's much more gentle increase in the national debt wold be used to pay for the promises in the Manifesto.
Which do you REALLY want?
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Boris says he ‘guarantees’ a new trade deal with the EU will be in place by the end of 2020. That’s some claim.
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Labour raising the debt without a no deal Brexit. Good job it's irrelevant as they won't be in.
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Boris says he ‘guarantees’ a new trade deal with the EU will be in place by the end of 2020. That’s some claim.
There's an empty ditch somewhere if he doesn't deliver on it - which I strongly suspect will continue to remain empty when he is unable to deliver on it...
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What I don’t understand is why the IFS figures are ridiculed when they show something positive about say, the Torys, but then are rolled out to support something good that might happen under Labour and people expected to accept the IFS figures as facts.
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Hound.
They haven't said something good about the Tories.
As for me, I haven't ridiculed the IFS. I've pointed out that they don't use the multiplier effect in their analysis. So their predictions of the positive effects of increased Govt spending are almost certainly underestimates.
For the same reason, they significantly underestimated how badly Austerity would affect the economy.
That's not ridiculing. It's discussing.
I'm presenting the IFS's figures here to show that, even when accepting their analysis at face value, it shows that the Labour plans would hardly affect the level of national debt.
Agreed?
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Herbert, they are all saying what they want now just to get in power, then they can do what they want, which will be a completely different thing.
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What I don’t understand is why the IFS figures are ridiculed when they show something positive about say, the Torys, but then are rolled out to support something good that might happen under Labour and people expected to accept the IFS figures as facts.
It's called blinkered partisanship Hound.
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And here we go again.
Selby. You obviously missed that report I posted the other day. The one that found that 85% of manifesto promises by UK parties were wholly or significantly put into practice. The highest percentage among all the countries they studied.
Instead you repeat the most ignorant of tropes. And that justifies you ignoring the lies of the side you support.
It's pitiful to watch.
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What I don’t understand is why the IFS figures are ridiculed when they show something positive about say, the Torys, but then are rolled out to support something good that might happen under Labour and people expected to accept the IFS figures as facts.
It's called blinkered partisanship Hound.
And, once again. Ignore grown up discussion and chuck lazy insults out.
What is it with the folk on the Right?
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Andrew Neil has exposed Boris Johnson's major weaknesses without even interviewing him. And they are:
1. A record of failure.
2. A litany of lies and broken promises.
3. Abject cowardice.
Vote for this shallow, uncaring, chickenshit pretender and you'll get the PM you deserve.
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Nurses using foodbanks, disabled & sick denied benefits & dying while trying to appeal, millions of children living in poverty & a PM who makes 3/4 of a million on the side! Can anyone seriously think he's on te side of ordinary people trying to get by?
🧐
Boris Johnson pocketed more than £700,000 in outside earnings in the last year – more than any other MP.
The figure was described as “obscene” and evidence of the “sickening inequality in this country”, as struggling nurses are having to use foodbanks to survive.
Mr Johnson was also able to use an £850,000 political war chest from personal donations.
Labour’s Louise Haigh said: “While the PM has been raking in obscene amounts of money on top of his prime ministerial salary, hundreds of thousands are relying on foodbanks, unable to heat homes and struggling to make ends meet.
“His contempt for the people that need government support the most is exactly why we have such sickening inequality in this country.”
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This is big.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1202986288586117120
This is a senior British diplomat who signed up to her current job in order to help "get Brexit done."
She says she "can no longer peddle half lies on behalf of political leaders she doesn't trust."
She says if another country had been as dishonest about what Brexit meant as our Govt had been, she would have expected to be instructed, as a senior Diplomat, to make strong representations to them about their behaviour.
Still. We took back control eh? I'm sure she's just another f**king Remoaner firing off.
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I know it's well known in Govt circles that Johnson is f**king useless on details. Disorganised, lacking in attention, unwilling to put the effort in to master his brief.
But good God, I had no idea quite how bad until seeing that debate tonight.
No discussion at all about detailed policy. Every question was answered with "Get Brexit done". By the end, even his supporters in the audience had got bored of it.
When he DID try to get into detail, he just trotted out bald lies. Labour spending £1.2trn. (They wouldn't). Labour putting Corporation Tax up to the highest in Europe. (They wouldn't.) The Tories building 40 new hospitals. (They aren't.)
You can see why his minders don't want you to see him in front of Andrew Neil. Or even Julie Etchingham. He's simply hopeless when he's not just parrotting standard lines.
-
I know it's well known in Govt circles that Johnson is f**king useless on details. Disorganised, lacking in attention, unwilling to put the effort in to master his brief.
But good God, I had no idea quite how bad until seeing that debate tonight.
No discussion at all about detailed policy. Every question was answered with "Get Brexit done". By the end, even his supporters in the audience had got bored of it.
When he DID try to get into detail, he just trotted out bald lies. Labour spending £1.2trn. (They wouldn't). Labour putting Corporation Tax up to the highest in Europe. (They wouldn't.) The Tories building 40 new hospitals. (They aren't.)
You can see why his minders don't want you to see him in front of Andrew Neil. Or even Julie Etchingham. He's simply hopeless when he's not just parrotting standard lines.
According to Sky News, YouGov data suggests that 52% of people think Johnson won the debate tonight.
-
I know it's well known in Govt circles that Johnson is f**king useless on details. Disorganised, lacking in attention, unwilling to put the effort in to master his brief.
But good God, I had no idea quite how bad until seeing that debate tonight.
No discussion at all about detailed policy. Every question was answered with "Get Brexit done". By the end, even his supporters in the audience had got bored of it.
When he DID try to get into detail, he just trotted out bald lies. Labour spending £1.2trn. (They wouldn't). Labour putting Corporation Tax up to the highest in Europe. (They wouldn't.) The Tories building 40 new hospitals. (They aren't.)
You can see why his minders don't want you to see him in front of Andrew Neil. Or even Julie Etchingham. He's simply hopeless when he's not just parrotting standard lines.
According to Sky News, YouGov data suggests that 52% of people think Johnson won the debate tonight.
The people have spoken eh then Steve.
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How will you deal with Islamaphobia in the Conservative Party?
I will get Brexit done....
-
I know it's well known in Govt circles that Johnson is f**king useless on details. Disorganised, lacking in attention, unwilling to put the effort in to master his brief.
But good God, I had no idea quite how bad until seeing that debate tonight.
No discussion at all about detailed policy. Every question was answered with "Get Brexit done". By the end, even his supporters in the audience had got bored of it.
When he DID try to get into detail, he just trotted out bald lies. Labour spending £1.2trn. (They wouldn't). Labour putting Corporation Tax up to the highest in Europe. (They wouldn't.) The Tories building 40 new hospitals. (They aren't.)
You can see why his minders don't want you to see him in front of Andrew Neil. Or even Julie Etchingham. He's simply hopeless when he's not just parrotting standard lines.
According to Sky News, YouGov data suggests that 52% of people think Johnson won the debate tonight.
The people have spoken eh then Steve.
The ones who have been fooled into believing that he will get Brexit done... boy do you have a shock coming.
-
I know it's well known in Govt circles that Johnson is f**king useless on details. Disorganised, lacking in attention, unwilling to put the effort in to master his brief.
But good God, I had no idea quite how bad until seeing that debate tonight.
No discussion at all about detailed policy. Every question was answered with "Get Brexit done". By the end, even his supporters in the audience had got bored of it.
When he DID try to get into detail, he just trotted out bald lies. Labour spending £1.2trn. (They wouldn't). Labour putting Corporation Tax up to the highest in Europe. (They wouldn't.) The Tories building 40 new hospitals. (They aren't.)
You can see why his minders don't want you to see him in front of Andrew Neil. Or even Julie Etchingham. He's simply hopeless when he's not just parrotting standard lines.
According to Sky News, YouGov data suggests that 52% of people think Johnson won the debate tonight.
The people have spoken eh then Steve.
The ones who have been fooled into believing that he will get Brexit done... boy do you have a shock coming.
Why have I got a shock coming Wilts?
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Because Brexit won't be done in 6 weeks or 6 months, or probably even 6 years. The work has barely started.
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But that doesn’t shock me BST, I expected that to be the case, whoever wins next week.
-
Good Hound.
-
That’s what I say to my dogs,
-
But that doesn’t shock me BST, I expected that to be the case, whoever wins next week.
so when johnson says 'we'll get brexit done' what do you think he means hound?
'
-
I know it's well known in Govt circles that Johnson is f**king useless on details. Disorganised, lacking in attention, unwilling to put the effort in to master his brief.
But good God, I had no idea quite how bad until seeing that debate tonight.
No discussion at all about detailed policy. Every question was answered with "Get Brexit done". By the end, even his supporters in the audience had got bored of it.
When he DID try to get into detail, he just trotted out bald lies. Labour spending £1.2trn. (They wouldn't). Labour putting Corporation Tax up to the highest in Europe. (They wouldn't.) The Tories building 40 new hospitals. (They aren't.)
You can see why his minders don't want you to see him in front of Andrew Neil. Or even Julie Etchingham. He's simply hopeless when he's not just parrotting standard lines.
According to Sky News, YouGov data suggests that 52% of people think Johnson won the debate tonight.
The people have spoken eh then Steve.
The ones who have been fooled into believing that he will get Brexit done... boy do you have a shock coming.
Thta what many will think. The only thing that will be over (done) will be the Divorce settlement itself.
Oh and even that was technically done when Johnson got it through HOC but then had to trump up some way of getting it "stopped" as it was not extreme enough for his "clique"
I think I am old enough to perhaps never see the damage / or the positivities because it will follow years and years of wrestling hand wringing etc (imo) after which the little guys will be left with the crumbs (as they are now whether we are in or out) whilst as it always hes been the elite will be in clover (as they are now whether we are in or out)
All that is imho
-
I know it's well known in Govt circles that Johnson is f**king useless on details. Disorganised, lacking in attention, unwilling to put the effort in to master his brief.
But good God, I had no idea quite how bad until seeing that debate tonight.
No discussion at all about detailed policy. Every question was answered with "Get Brexit done". By the end, even his supporters in the audience had got bored of it.
When he DID try to get into detail, he just trotted out bald lies. Labour spending £1.2trn. (They wouldn't). Labour putting Corporation Tax up to the highest in Europe. (They wouldn't.) The Tories building 40 new hospitals. (They aren't.)
You can see why his minders don't want you to see him in front of Andrew Neil. Or even Julie Etchingham. He's simply hopeless when he's not just parrotting standard lines.
According to Sky News, YouGov data suggests that 52% of people think Johnson won the debate tonight.
Quick everyone demand a re-vote.
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The same tactics are geing used in the the uk as were used in the recent Australian elections that gave the conservatives a single seat majority, only use the leader, hide the rest and only allow the leader out in controlled situations.
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The ones who have been fooled into believing that he will get Brexit done... boy do you have a shock coming.
Why have I got a shock coming Wilts?
The people who believe Johnson will 'get Brexit done' will have a shock coming hound.
If that applies to you - which it appears to in your reply to my comment - then you will have a shock coming. If it doesn't - which you appear to reference in your reply to Billy - then it wont.
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On who came across as more trustworthy in #BBCDebate:
Jeremy Corbyn: 48%
Boris Johnson: 38%
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1203071862374305792
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So Corbyn's a better liar than Johnson then!
-
The same tactics are geing used in the the uk as were used in the recent Australian elections that gave the conservatives a single seat majority, only use the leader, hide the rest and only allow the leader out in controlled situations.
Funnily enough the same bloke who ran Morrison's campaign is the one running Johnson's. Isaac Levido a protege of Lynton Crosby. Channel 4 News did a piece this week on the similarities in the campaign strategies.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/30/lynton-crosby-isaac-levido-protege-conservative-election-machine
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So Corbyn's a better liar than Johnson then!
that's something trump would say
-
...Great minds......
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yep, if trump wanted another tee he knows where to look.
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He's found one or two of mine at Turnberry.
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I suspect this is a future leader of the Labour party and PM.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RCorbettMEP/status/1203289732672819201
Seen her speak many times and she is a force of nature. Calm, but passionate. Knowledgeable but not lecturing. Clear without being simplistic. She never avoids a question but answers them with gentle authority.
We desperately need a better next generation of politicians than this one. If there's one thing that Austerity has done, it's that it has invigorated a whole generation on Left to get involved in politics.
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''Calls grow to stop Boris Johnson with tactical voting as race tightens
Eleventh-hour appeal to anti-Tory voters as poll shows Conservative majority halved''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/07/calls-grow-to-stop-boris-johnson-with-tactical-voting-as-race-tightens
anyone but johnson.
-
But that doesn’t shock me BST, I expected that to be the case, whoever wins next week.
so when johnson says 'we'll get brexit done' what do you think he means hound?
'
don't forget to give your answer on this hound :)
Ah well maybe next time? :)
-
But that doesn’t shock me BST, I expected that to be the case, whoever wins next week.
so when johnson says 'we'll get brexit done' what do you think he means hound?
'
don't forget to give your answer on this hound :)
Ah well maybe next time? :)
Sydney, sorry, I didn’t realise there was a time limit for me to answer in.
What do I think he (Johnson) means...... well I think it means that he wants to get Brexit done.
What do you think........no time limit.....in your own time.
-
' get Brexit Done '
Spafman's version of Trump's
' Make America Great Again ' .
A meaningless phrase for the misguided,
gullible and educationally challenged.
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But that doesn’t shock me BST, I expected that to be the case, whoever wins next week.
so when johnson says 'we'll get brexit done' what do you think he means hound?
'
don't forget to give your answer on this hound :)
Ah well maybe next time? :)
Sydney, sorry, I didn’t realise there was a time limit for me to answer in.
What do I think he (Johnson) means...... well I think it means that he wants to get Brexit done.
What do you think........no time limit.....in your own time.
I just kept seeing your name at the top and nit getting an answer, any time before the election will do? :)
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But that doesn’t shock me BST, I expected that to be the case, whoever wins next week.
so when johnson says 'we'll get brexit done' what do you think he means hound?
'
don't forget to give your answer on this hound :)
Ah well maybe next time? :)
Sydney, sorry, I didn’t realise there was a time limit for me to answer in.
What do I think he (Johnson) means...... well I think it means that he wants to get Brexit done.
What do you think........no time limit.....in your own time.
I just kept seeing your name at the top and nit getting an answer, any time before the election will do? :)
I gave you my answer but you won’t tell me what YOU think he means.
Stop pussyfooting around.
You are usually very profound with your opinions.
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Meanwhile, the REAL failing of the Tories goes on under the radar.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50725715
Bizarrely, the Tories continue to get away with the line that the economy is strong under them.
Here's the facts.
In 2010, we were roaring out of recession. Just as you need to do after a bad recession, Govt spending was boosting the economy. Precisely what the textbooks say you need to do. Borrow and spend to keep the economy going until the private sector recovers its confidence.
Then the Tory/LD coalition implemented Austerity. And the result...
From 1950-2010, we averaged 2.3% growth per year. From 2010-2019, we have hit that figure ONCE. In 2014. Every single other year, we have performed worse than the long term average. Now, we are down to 0.7% growth.
You know what the effect of that underperformance is?
It means our economy produces £40bn less than it should do this year.
£40bn. That would pay for EIGHTY infirmaries. Or over half a million nursing jobs.
And here's the real kicker. If we don't improve next year (and the predictions are saying we won't) then next year the cumulative loss is £120bn (£40bn lost growth from this year, running over into a £40bn smaller economy next year plus £40bn in lost growth next year.)
After 3 years it is £240bn.
And we've already had 9 years of this.
It is horrifically bad economic management. And no one seems to give a f**k. We have chosen to make ourselves far, far poorer than we should be, and we're on the verge of re-electing the idiots who gave us that. Absolute madness.
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Latest betting is good news for Labour
They couldn't could they ?
https://www.oddschecker.com/insight/politics/20191210-turning-tide-labour-minority-more-popular-than-tory-majority-in-latest-general-election-betting
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I'll just toss this into the salad :)
''Peter Oborne: Why are Britain’s ‘watchdogs’ protecting politicians, not us?''
https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/peter-oborne-why-are-britains-watchdogs-protecting-politicians-not-us/
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For all of the lovers of fake news
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/12/10/trolls-sock-puppets-and-useful-idiots-an-anatomy-of-an-election-disinformation-campaign/
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Interesting comment on the radio last night comparing Johnson with Thatcher. Saying how Thatcher managed to convince Northern voters that it was in their interests to vote Tory by letting them buy their council houses in 1979 and 1983. Then systematically destroying their industries and communities. Boris is doing something similar with Brexit and yet again people are falling for it.
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Hopefully this last minute optimism in the Labour ranks of actually getting into no10 with a minority back door government is just some whispy straw clutching..
Sturgeon would have Corbyn bent over backwards with her demands..It's going to be a close run thing but I'm hoping the leave Labour voters realise that Labour is a remain party in all but name and desert him in the key marginal..
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WingCo.
If, say, Labour pick up 36%, the LDs 10%, SNP 4% and Greens 2%, and they come to a deal, how would that be a "minority back door Govt"?
Compared to say Johnson picking up 42% and being given a clear run for 5 years without needing a partner.
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Brexit apart that would be a Government of Chaos imo.The deals Labour would have to do to get that lot on board would make a mockery of what people voted for.Like the DUP did with the last government they would all want a slice of the pie but at a lot bigger cost to the point of making the manifesto not worth the paper it's printed on.
On a separate point could you clear this up for me,and this question is a genuine one because I'm not sure about the answer and thought you might know.
If the above scenario comes to pass,all the above party's would form a remain supporting government pushing to stay in the EU.However it was my belief that if Brexit fails and we do stay in the EU.Then it would be against EU rules to nationalise the service industry's that Labour is committed to doing from day 1 of the new parliamentary term..
Have I interpreted that wrong Billy??? Like I say that's a genuine question mate...
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WingCo.
Good points. Here's my take.
1) Broad coalitions are common in many other successfully-run countries. The far bigger problem with our system is that 40-42% of the vote can give a majority that gives a PM effectively unrestricted power. That is just not right, whichever party benefits.
2) My understanding it is that EU rules wouldn't forbid that.
But...
3) Corbyn won't be in a position to implement it. The LDs won't sign up to Labour's full spending plans. They would have to water it down.
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Billy I was trying to find the answer to the EU question myself and couldn't really get a straight answer to it.Some experts were saying as you have said that there are ways around it.However some others were saying the EU rule that covers the Market Pillar Directive would mean that services like the railways simply couldn't be nationalised under any condition..
I'm actually a bit surprised the question hasn't been debated more tbh because the position doesn't appear crystal clear,to a layman like me anyway..
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Yes to Number 1
Who can forget Thatchers landslide with 42%. It is just not right whatever Party benefits. Huge pressure for PR but if Johnson gets in would the Tories EVER even think about their greatest asset FPTP - I doubt it in fact I am far nore certain than "I doubt it"
Number 3 - Corbyn would be isolated and would as you say have to water down the expansive promises he has made AND SNP would have him over a barrel as well. If he wanted to lead the Country as PM he would take both those options
However it would be massively better imho than Johnson
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BST is of course correct and Cameron won a majority on a much smaller vote share than Theresa May's failure. Indeed in the last election both main parties polled more than the previous winner and the tories weren't far off Blairs last election win with big majority. It's a complex system and this election will have numerous surprises.
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Yes to Number 1
Who can forget Thatchers landslide with 42%. It is just not right whatever Party benefits. Huge pressure for PR but if Johnson gets in would the Tories EVER even think about their greatest asset FPTP - I doubt it in fact I am far nore certain than "I doubt it"
Number 3 - Corbyn would be isolated and would as you say have to water down the expansive promises he has made AND SNP would have him over a barrel as well. If he wanted to lead the Country as PM he would take both those options
However it would be massively better imho than Johnson
On that we will have to strongly disagree mate..lol
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https://www.sportingindex.com/spread-betting/politics/british/group_b.6b9db4dc-d1df-4c9d-b9ab-c9a136a91f1e/uk-general-election-seats-markets/?tpid=8909&btag=a_941&siteid=941&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=marketspecific
Latest seat spreads. Tory spread down from yesterday when it was 340-346. I'd probably be selling still until it gets to 330-336 territory.
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One to ponder when you're voting today.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1204896167177252864
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Stoney ground bst
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Got to keep telling them though.
If Johnson DOES get his majority, the folk who have insisted on not looking at these warnings will own the economic disaster.
They need reminding. Regularly.
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Lots of talk that Ian Duncan Smith the tory at most risk, I'm sure we all agree it would be a real shame that....
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Raab is on a knife edge too. If Johnson does win, at least there might be some schadenfreude if those two lose.
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Lots of talk that Ian Duncan Smith the tory at most risk, I'm sure we all agree it would be a real shame that....
I hope he attends his universal credit appointments on time 😂😂😂😂
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Raab is on a knife edge too. If Johnson does win, at least there might be some schadenfreude if those two lose.
Another shame....
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We could have Raab as PM tomorrow if Boris does lose, that's the unfortunate thing.
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Strong rumours on that there internet thing that big surge in tactical voting in Uxbridge - Johnson could be in trouble
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Strong rumours on that there internet thing that big surge in tactical voting in Uxbridge - Johnson could be in trouble
Here’s hoping
I don’t think there is a deputy PM at the moment, who would be PM ifBoris is out on his arse?
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I think a safe Tory seat would give there seat up causing a by election and he would run for that so if tories were in power he would be caretaker pm until the said by election
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I wonder how he would spin it if he lost his seat and then stood in a by-election in a safe Tory seat to then get in with a much reduced majority.
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Strong rumours on that there internet thing that big surge in tactical voting in Uxbridge - Johnson could be in trouble
Apparently BJ didn’t vote for himself today, choosing to vote nearer to his home instead.
He must be confident enough that he is safe after doing so.
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I wonder how he would spin it if he lost his seat and then stood in a by-election in a safe Tory seat to then get in with a much reduced majority.
Shrug pull a goofy face and hope everyone just laughed about it which to be fair they always seem to "Oh Boris! You little cheeky evil so and so"
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Any predictions? I’m going hung Parliament with tories still in power
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Exit poll, surely not?
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Wow maybe I’ll change my mind lol
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Well, it looks like the Turkeys have voted for Christmas.
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We are fooked
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That is surely wrong
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Even if it’s wrong it will have to be massively wrong for tories not to get a majority, my prediction was made looking at the queues at polling stations but maybe there just in labour strong holds
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70 seat win predicted tories
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It's a complete disaster Sydney. The Brexiteers have won it hands down.
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I'm gutted.
The smear campaigns won.
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Wow! That's...astonishing.
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F*cking hell; I'm quite good at political predictions, but even I wasn't expecting that. If it's right, it'll be the worst Labour result since 1935.
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https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/
Interesting
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Don Valley likely to go to Tories.
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if this is anywhere near acurate johnson will be able to say he has a madate to do what he wants
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70 seat win predicted tories
According to Sky News it's 86 seats.
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
Sacked in the morning.......
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Felt terrible for john McDonnell there on sky, andrew Neil did not need to stick the knife in like that.
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Dennis Skinner seems to be gone.
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Tories gloating that a party that’s causing so much suffering is likely to win is nauseating.
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Felt terrible for john McDonnell there on sky, andrew Neil did not need to stick the knife in like that.
Was McDonnell for real when he said that they were in the centre?
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We've got a PM who's too scared to speak to Piers or Neil but he's given the keys to the most important point in this countries recent history.
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Felt terrible for john McDonnell there on sky, andrew Neil did not need to stick the knife in like that.
Politics is ruthless. That's how it is.
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Felt terrible for john McDonnell there on sky, andrew Neil did not need to stick the knife in like that.
Was McDonnell for real when he said that they were in the centre?
Centre-Left. Which the policies are.
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appparently Labour has asked to go to VAR :suicide:
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Andrew Marr just made an interesting point - if Boris has really got a majority as big as that, it actually makes the ERG substantially weaker and they may not get what they want any more.
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
Do you think it'll give the moderates in the Labour party the leverage to get the party back from Momentum?
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The end of the Union is nigh
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
Do you think it'll give the moderates in the Labour party the leverage to get the party back from Momentum?
I hope so, our system works best with a strong opposition
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A good night for the SNP apparently.
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
Do you think it'll give the moderates in the Labour party the leverage to get the party back from Momentum?
I hope so, our system works best with a strong opposition
I think that Labour would do well to copy the Tories Leadership election system - the MPs whittle down to two candidates and then the membership votes on those two choices.
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If this result comes to fruition it's a case of “We told you once, now we're telling you again! “
Corbyn for me is a glorified union official, a protestor and not a leader. Sitting on the fence was a bad move! Labour need to get back to being more moderate under a new leader and be Realistic!
Then we can get back to sorting out the social policies, essential public services etc.
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Bang on
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
Do you think it'll give the moderates in the Labour party the leverage to get the party back from Momentum?
It'll be a long haul.
The far left membership controls the party. They are notoriously impervious to facts. Expect a stream of arguments that it is every f**ker's fault but theirs. Especially the electorate for not understanding.
I don't honestly know where the Labour party goes from here.
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Laura Kuenssberg Is having orgasms on the BBC
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If this result comes to fruition it's a case of “We told you once, now we're telling you again! “
Corbyn for me is a glorified union official, a protestor and not a leader. Sitting on the fence was a bad move! Labour need to get back to being more moderate under a new leader and be Realistic!
Then we can get back to sorting out the social policies, essential public services etc.
I said right at the start when he was elected leader that his natural position is as Labour's Jiminy Cricket, sitting on their shoulder and acting as their conscience. Not leading them.
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The problem is the left always say they'll listen to the public then never actually do it. The huge wins they had were centre policies under Blair, unless they move there they have no chance. 2017 made them think the left wing policies were right, but they weren't.
Still, the exit poll may be wrong....
The bbc predictor has doncaster central as too close to call, cant see it.
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
Do you think it'll give the moderates in the Labour party the leverage to get the party back from Momentum?
It'll be a long haul.
The far left membership controls the party. They are notoriously impervious to facts. Expect a stream of arguments that it is every f**ker's fault but theirs. Especially the electorate for not understanding.
I don't honestly know where the Labour party goes from here.
What could have a big effect on what happens next is which MPs fall by the waysideand therefore who is left to challenge for the leadership. It could be that Labour end up in the same position as the Tories after 1997 when they had to elect Hague because he was the only credible non-Ken Clarke option left standing.
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I'm numbed at the moment at that result.
The f**king anger at the idiots who have imposed Corbyn on us will come later.
Do you think it'll give the moderates in the Labour party the leverage to get the party back from Momentum?
It'll be a long haul.
You are spot on there Billy, it was a catastrophic move when they let every Tom Dick and Trotsky join for £3.50.
The far left membership controls the party. They are notoriously impervious to facts. Expect a stream of arguments that it is every f**ker's fault but theirs. Especially the electorate for not understanding.
I don't honestly know where the Labour party goes from here.
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If a more centre leaning leader can be elected, after Brexit has passed I can see all these new blue seats turning red again quite easily.
The manifesto wasn't even that bad, and was achieveable, but Corbyn was never going to win
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Truly shocking result for the people of this country who voted for labour if the forecast is correct,to lose to a party with a leader of such proven poor character just rubs salt into the wounds
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Bassetlaw and Don Valley both look like they've gone.
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Exit poll showing Don Valley likely to become a Tory seat!
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Truly shocking result for the people of this country who voted for labour if the forecast is correct,to lose to a party with a leader of such proven poor character just rubs salt into the wounds
What does that say about Corbyn?
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True
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
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Truly shocking result for the people of this country who voted for labour if the forecast is correct,to lose to a party with a leader of such proven poor character just rubs salt into the wounds
What does that say about Corbyn?
That the smears have worked. Bet Rupert Murdoch is currently sipping some bubbly in Number 10.
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
It's an anti-Labour vote not a pro-Brexit vote.
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Hopefully the whole UK is like how this poll is currently going.
Well it's not.
If labour backed honouring the referendum theyd get my vote and many others.
Turf Corbyn and Abbot it will be even better for them.
They've gone too far left. People want to here immigration is controlled. She comes across announcing it as though it's gonna be a free for all and a 100 million population in 10 years time
Dry insightful Padge.
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If a more centre leaning leader can be elected, after Brexit has passed I can see all these new blue seats turning red again quite easily.
The manifesto wasn't even that bad, and was achieveable, but Corbyn was never going to win
The manifesto was too extreme. Had he left the utilities out of it (except water) for example, it may have been more credible. Many folks private pensions are tied up in these pension funds and you could see them going tits up under labour.
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From the first three declarations it’s obvious that the Brexit Party have done some damage to Labour
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As of next week the economy is going to be that good I'm considering coming over just to set up business :)
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
Yes, it's a shame if she does as she was true to her constituents.
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
It's an anti-Labour vote not a pro-Brexit vote.
Totally disagree with that. All the lifelong Labour supporters I know have voted Tory, which is something I would never do as an ex-miner, and they've put it down to nothing other than revenge for Brexit.
For what it's worth, I think this is a one-off. Get the right leader in and Labour can recover.
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Has the turn out been smaller so far? Blackpool south turnout was 56 percent seems very low
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
But her leader wasn’t was he. He refuses to say what he thinks but we know he was a remainer
Caroline Flint wasn’t going to be PM
The public are not thick are they. Doncaster had a 67% leave vote.
Hence massive Tory gains in Labour heartlands.
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I think that this is going to worse than the exit poll suggests, the swing from lab to con is fairly consistant across the declared seats so far
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
It's an anti-Labour vote not a pro-Brexit vote.
Totally disagree with that. All the lifelong Labour supporters I know have voted Tory, which is something I would never do as an ex-miner, and they've put it down to nothing other than revenge for Brexit.
For what it's worth, I think this is a one-off. Get the right leader in and Labour can recover.
Could be right. You ignore your heartlands at your peril.
Many have been waiting since 1972?for this and won't let that chance be circumvented.
Corbyn is a problem for Labour but also as said above, too far left and for those of us who remember high interest rates, inflation etc etc you can imagine how we might pay for Labour's polocies.
That said, there is much we don't like about the squeezing of public services and the outsourcing which need addressing.
If Labour had come out with “Let's make Britain Great again“ “Let's lead the world“ once the referendum result came then, it's a different story.
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
It's an anti-Labour vote not a pro-Brexit vote.
Totally disagree with that. All the lifelong Labour supporters I know have voted Tory, which is something I would never do as an ex-miner, and they've put it down to nothing other than revenge for Brexit.
For what it's worth, I think this is a one-off. Get the right leader in and Labour can recover.
2024 election will go to the Conservatives because the Labour Party will have to get the biggest swing probably in history to win a majority.
Boris will have to make a complete shambles of his Premiership for his party to lose next time.
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Hard to say what will happen in 2024.
It's obvious that the Brexit Party has done its job. I suspect there'll end up being 40-50 seats where the Tory majority over Labour is smaller than the votes that Farage took off Labour.
Fair play to him. He's done it and we have to accept that.
That won't be an issue in 2024. It's up to Labour to find a leader who can win those voters back. Do that and it's anyone's guess.
None of that changes the fact that this is shattering for Labour though.
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Hard to say what will happen in 2024.
It's obvious that the Brexit Party has done its job. I suspect there'll end up being 40-50 seats where the Tory majority over Labour is smaller than the votes that Farage took off Labour.
Fair play to him. He's done it and we have to accept that.
That won't be an issue in 2024. It's up to Labour to find a leader who can win those voters back. Do that and it's anyone's guess.
None of that changes the fact that this is shattering for Labour though.
Totally agree with all of that. It's a pity that John Smith passed away when he did. Personally, I always liked Andy Burnham, but he's pre-occupied with his current job.
John McDonnell and Barry Gardiner both looked shattered men tonight. I take no joy whatsoever in seeing people as browbeaten as that.
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Very much appreciate those sentiments SS. Whatever you think of political opponents, most of them are in it because they genuinely think they can make the country better. Much as I disliked the Tories, I remember feeling empathy for Major in 1997 at the scale of that defeat. It must feel like the end of the world.
Agreed about Smith too. I think the last 25 years would have been very different if he'd not died when he did. Blair went way too far to the right and Corbyn is a stupid reaction to that.
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Hard to say what will happen in 2024.
It's obvious that the Brexit Party has done its job. I suspect there'll end up being 40-50 seats where the Tory majority over Labour is smaller than the votes that Farage took off Labour.
Fair play to him. He's done it and we have to accept that.
That won't be an issue in 2024. It's up to Labour to find a leader who can win those voters back. Do that and it's anyone's guess.
None of that changes the fact that this is shattering for Labour though.
Not being clever BST but i did say yesterday how unpopular Corbyn was with Labour voters.
I had first hand exposure to that with the social research interviews i do.
What is surprising though is how many seats Labour are going to lose. Seats with majorities of 5 to 6000 are going blue such as Don Valley it would seem. Swings of over 7%
Quite staggering really when you see who is the leader of the Conservative party.
Why do the Labour Party keep electing left wing politicians as their leaders.
Foot, Kinnock, Milliband & Corbyn were all unelectable in a Britain which has become more prosperous where the working class are much better off than they were in decades of the past.
Yes those at the bottom on zero hour contracts and some on benefits are not of course.
But those who are working in decent jobs are much better off in the last 30 years than those in the 50’s 60’s 70’s & 80’s
Labour need to live in the real world and have to appeal to a completely different electorate than the one of 30+ years ago.
Until they address their own deficiencies they will be confined to history with regard to governing Britain.
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You did Campsall. You called it bang on.
You don't need to convince me by the way. I predicted a disaster like this the moment Corbyn was elected in 2015. Just been trying to make myself believe I was wrong, this past few weeks.
I've got friends who are working class and hate Corbyn and friends who are middle class and hate Corbyn. None of them are Tory supporters but they wouldn't vote Labour with him in charge.
And there's the problem. 20% of the population think he's God. And they can't understand why the other 80% don't.
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Tricky balancing act coming up for laour now, remove Corbyn and try to keep the young voters. A lot of younger voters wouldn't vote tory I know but if he's been viewed as a massiah it would put their noses out.
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Despite having a lot of female MPs, a lot of Labour supporters are disappointed that the Party has not had a female leader.
I don't know much about Dawn Butler, but she sounded very calm and reasoned on Sky News. Just a thought.
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i don't watch sky news in aus Steve but it has really low audience numbers and is rabidly (crazy) far right. what's the uk version like? not having a go genuine question?
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i don't watch sky news in aus Steve but it has really low audience numbers and is rabidly (crazy) far right. what's the uk version like? not having a go genuine question?
I find it very impartial Sydney, that's why I like it. I think Sophie Ridge and Beth Rigby are very good.
They used to have a political editor called Joey Jones; I once met him in Whitehall; really nice down to earth bloke.
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Thanks Steve, after a bit of googling Sky uk is owned by US comcast where murdoch doesn't appear to have a controlling interest but it difficult to follow the pathways to see. Sky here is panned, ridiculed and controlled by murdovh but apparently watched by right wing mps.
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Hard to say what will happen in 2024.
It's obvious that the Brexit Party has done its job. I suspect there'll end up being 40-50 seats where the Tory majority over Labour is smaller than the votes that Farage took off Labour.
Fair play to him. He's done it and we have to accept that.
That won't be an issue in 2024. It's up to Labour to find a leader who can win those voters back. Do that and it's anyone's guess.
None of that changes the fact that this is shattering for Labour though.
Totally agree with all of that. It's a pity that John Smith passed away when he did. Personally, I always liked Andy Burnham, but he's pre-occupied with his current job.
John McDonnell and Barry Gardiner both looked shattered men tonight. I take no joy whatsoever in seeing people as browbeaten as that.
I think Burnham would have been a good shout. Also think the wrong Milliband got elected.
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Boris has completely out manoeuvred the Labour party by forcing an election on the date he wanted, on the main policy he wanted, and conducted the publicity and TV appearences when he wanted, and by who he wanted.
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Boris wins easily in Uxbridge
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Boris has completely out manoeuvred the Labour party by forcing an election on the date he wanted, on the main policy he wanted, and conducted the publicity and TV appearences when he wanted, and by who he wanted.
changed
I think the people have been outmanouvered with brexit but who cares :)
added:
I'll expand on that to say that since the first vote which was overwhelming, some of the tories and especially johnson plus a few from other parties have undermined the EU and convinced the british public that it was responsible for everything bad that has happened to them, I'm not the first to say this, largely anything that has been blamed here on the EU has mostly been discredited in large part by bst, but by plenty of others including myself.
On the whole the EU has done a good job spreading wealth around protecting workers rights and stopping wars within the group.
That, and I have said this many times no one is able to show a brexit benefit in three years.
Outmanouvered.
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On a plus side sterling has strengthened against the Euro - currently near 1.20, and also against the $ - currently 1.34.
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Interesting thing is, this result gives Johnson the power to face down the worst excesses of the ERG and go for a sensible deal with the EU. In that respect, it's far better than the Tories having a 5 seat majority.
Plus, he now has a big choice in the North. Properly invest instead of the Northern Powerhouse bullshit lipservice, or he loses 35 seats in 2024 and with it, his majority.
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Interesting thing is, this result gives Johnson the power to face down the worst excesses of the ERG and go for a sensible deal with the EU. In that respect, it's far better than the Tories having a 5 seat majority.
Plus, he now has a big choice in the North. Properly invest instead of the Northern Powerhouse bullshit lipservice, or he loses 35 seats in 2024 and with it, his majority.
That depends who the Labour leader is and the policies they are going to have in their Manifesto.
If they have another left wing leader they are dead meat again.
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Interesting thing is, this result gives Johnson the power to face down the worst excesses of the ERG and go for a sensible deal with the EU. In that respect, it's far better than the Tories having a 5 seat majority.
Plus, he now has a big choice in the North. Properly invest instead of the Northern Powerhouse bullshit lipservice, or he loses 35 seats in 2024 and with it, his majority.
Agree with this, it's a huge opportunity for him to really seize ground if he gets it right, the opposition is a mess and he can stick the knife right in. He has some huge hurdles to overcome but theres a big opportunity for him to prove all those things said about him wrong.
Can he do it? Sceptical but he has so.much power he can make the tories what he wants.
What he will go for though is big debate.
Lots of talk about the mandate he has, but this is a huge win, the tories got a bigger % of the vote than labour in 1997, that's the perspective.
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Fair point on the comparison with 1997 BFYP.
I hadn't clocked that and that is a big point.
Lesson from history.
Labour from 1997-01 weren't actually very good.
But the Tories fell into a comfort zone of indulging their far right wing membership. And they were a f**king disaster as an opposition. And they lost almost as heavily in 2001.
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Can't understand It if Flint loses her seat she was all for Brexit.
Yes, it's a shame if she does as she was true to her constituents.
Well she wasn’t to me, I emailed Flint on three occasions and she didn’t respond to any of my messages.
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Boris wins easily in Uxbridge
I have been out all day and am just catching up with forum news.
The post above by bpool reminded me that last night someone on here told us that Uxbridge was looking very dodgy for BJ and that he might lose his seat.
As it has turned out he won easily.
This has been a consistent theme on the forum over the last few weeks.
Some of the Labour supporters (not all by the way) have bombarded us with electioneering posts, telling anyone and everyone that they MUST vote Labour and that they are idiots if they don’t.
Even last night we were told that the outcome of this GE was going to be close and that our vote for Labour would effectively save the Nation.
I found it to be uncomfortable to read and resented being told what to do.
I have a mind of my own and actually am uncomfortable with Boris as PM but would have felt worse had, by some miracle, if JC had become PM.
A few weeks ago when I was debating with BST about the fact that one of Johnson or Corbyn would be PM by today, a particular poster responded to me and told me that this GE wasn’t an American style election but that my vote for a Party, not Johnson or Corbyn.
It has turned out to be an American type election in the end.
All I have heard today on the news is about one or the other.
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johnson hasn't shown the slightest interest in his carreer so far to anything well so I wouls imagine he will leave others to do the hard work a be a dishevelled figurehead taking ang wins and lying about the mistakes.
Can anyone here point to something that was his initiative that went well?
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johnson hasn't shown the slightest interest in his carreer so far to anything well so I wouls imagine he will leave others to do the hard work a be a dishevelled figurehead taking ang wins and lying about the mistakes.
Can anyone here point to something that was his initiative that went well?
Can anyone prove that he hasn’t initiated any of the decisions that have been made during his tenure?
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The fact is, we are now stuck with him for 5 years. I really do genuinely hope he will represent and deliver to those who’ve voted Tory for the first time. He has such responsibility on his shoulders. Thatcher was the same in 79 and shat on the working class. I hope Boris doesn’t do the same.
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Can't see him bothering with the drunk feckless criminals myself.
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Did labour ignore their own polling or it was or it was wildly wrong?
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Time for single transferable voting.
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If I were Boris I would be making sure that he keeps the seats he won up here, I think that would be easy for him he hasn't got the tyrannical streak Thatcher had, could you imagine Thatcher going to Stainforth working Men's Club after a flood and taking a bollocking like the one he got!
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The pound is set to to be the strongest best performing currency this year,apparently investment funds all over the world are pouring money into the UK all Boris has to do is to make what's left of the Heavy industrial sites attractive to investors and just watch the jobs, take Flints old constituency, A measly £300 million to put an East Coast Parkway station into finingley, The Hundreds of Acres at Hatfield turned into industrial enterprise zones, that's the job done here. Wealth generates Tax revenue ,generates sustainable funding in Public serves, just look a Germany.
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The pound is set to to be the strongest best performing currency this year,apparently investment funds all over the world are pouring money into the UK all Boris has to do is to make what's left of the Heavy industrial sites attractive to investors and just watch the jobs, take Flints old constituency, A measly £300 million to put an East Coast Parkway station into finingley, The Hundreds of Acres at Hatfield turned into industrial enterprise zones, that's the job done here. Wealth generates Tax revenue ,generates sustainable funding in Public serves, just look a Germany.
The Hundreds of acres at Hatfield, including a marina and power park has been mooted for at least 10 years, the power park got ditched when the Tory Government withdrew funding for Carbon capture, the Marina which is supposed to be directly behind my house is still growing crops on the land. The only part of that whole project that has got off the ground yet is the start of a link road from junction 5 of the M18 to Hatfield and Stainforth
P.S. The power park was going to be clean technology sited next to Hatfield Pit, and would have secured Hatfield Pit for the next 30 to 40 years supplying coal to the power park, the withdrawing of funding for carbon capture killed both the power park and Hatfield pit
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The pound goes up UK goods cost more.
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The pound goes up UK goods cost more.
And in many industries the cost to make goes down. Worth noting it's not a simple science either, certain things and deals are done in differing currencies.
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I do understand that but thanks bfyp
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Hang on.
Before we start congratulating Johnson on the Pound going up. It's still trading 15-20% lower than it was at the start of the Referendum campaign.
If Johnson punched you in the face then helped you clean up the blood, would you sing his praises?
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The pound is set to to be the strongest best performing currency this year,apparently investment funds all over the world are pouring money into the UK all Boris has to do is to make what's left of the Heavy industrial sites attractive to investors and just watch the jobs, take Flints old constituency, A measly £300 million to put an East Coast Parkway station into finingley, The Hundreds of Acres at Hatfield turned into industrial enterprise zones, that's the job done here. Wealth generates Tax revenue ,generates sustainable funding in Public serves, just look a Germany.
You can forget developing all the land around Hatfield.
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The fact is, we are now stuck with him for 5 years. I really do genuinely hope he will represent and deliver to those who’ve voted Tory for the first time. He has such responsibility on his shoulders. Thatcher was the same in 79 and shat on the working class. I hope Boris doesn’t do the same.
Why would he feel the need to go that, Herbert? Those people voted for him and his manifesto, I didn't see much in it that promised anything to Labour voters voting for him.
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''Pound tumbles amid Brexit cliff-edge fears; factory output slumps - as it happened''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2019/dec/17/pound-brexit-cliff-edge-jobs-unemployment-wages-ftse-sterling-business-live
that didn't take long, why would no-deal be seen as bad news :)
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''Pound tumbles amid Brexit cliff-edge fears; factory output slumps - as it happened''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2019/dec/17/pound-brexit-cliff-edge-jobs-unemployment-wages-ftse-sterling-business-live
that didn't take long, why would no-deal be seen as bad news :)
the bit about Persimmon at the end is much much more news worthy
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So it seems the oven ready deal was n’t really oven ready as no deal is back on the table and the pound crashes again, that will help his City mates make a killing on the pound
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So it seems the oven ready deal was n’t really oven ready as no deal is back on the table and the pound crashes again, that will help his City mates make a killing on the pound
Yep. Another of Johnson's lies that the populace seem to lap up.
But then, the Tories are all at it. I was listening to Matt Hancock on BBC Breakfast TV this morning explaining why 'retaining' 18,500 existing nurses is 'increasing' nursing numbers by 18,500. The more he stuttered and stammered the more stupid he looked - but a significant part of the population will like what they hear, they will believe it and undoubtedly repeat it.
Lie and Deny seems to be the order of the day.
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It troubling Kato that there is a large %age of the country happy to accept this as the norm, what is the incentive to improve?
The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
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Of course it is oven ready Filo, it is just that they are now able to turn the heat up.
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So it seems the oven ready deal was n’t really oven ready as no deal is back on the table and the pound crashes again, that will help his City mates make a killing on the pound
Yep. Another of Johnson's lies that the populace seem to lap up.
But then, the Tories are all at it. I was listening to Matt Hancock on BBC Breakfast TV this morning explaining why 'retaining' 18,500 existing nurses is 'increasing' nursing numbers by 18,500. The more he stuttered and stammered the more stupid he looked - but a significant part of the population will like what they hear, they will believe it and undoubtedly repeat it.
Lie and Deny seems to be the order of the day.
Of all the f**king idiots in the Cabinet, Hancock is way out in front. He's like a little boy summoned to the front of class to sing a carol who has no idea what the first line is.
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Or when asked for his favourite Carol he said the one who presents the weather
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Hancock declares that only himself and his party are in a position to declare what the truth is. I look and sound stupid but I don't care he said as he pulled another idea from his rectum, it's obvious that those that voted for us don't care either so I can say anything I like :)
''Matt Hancock denies U-turn over reintroduction of nurse bursary
The health secretary has denied the government is being forced to clear up its own mistakes by announcing a partial reintroduction of bursary grants for student nurses, which the Conservatives abolished in 2016.
In the first major speech by a cabinet minister since last week’s election, Matt Hancock said the annual grants of between £5,000 and £8,000 would play a key part in the government’s promise of having 50,000 extra nurses in place within five years''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/18/matt-hancock-denies-u-turn-over-reintroduction-of-nurse-bursary
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Owt to say about Wales and the Labour Government's record of running the NHS there this morning Syd.
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https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-boris-johnson-downing-street-officials-negotiations_uk_5dfb57f3e4b01834791c02a8
This is brilliant.
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Leavers, just look what you could have won. Oh wait, you did....
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/12/signs-brexit-britain-191220205142247.html