Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on November 06, 2019, 11:25:24 am
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...in three diagrams. From a recent YG poll
1) Which party do 2016 Ref voters now support.
(https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2019-11-01/2016%20sankey%20proper-01.png)
Labour has attracted very few Leave voters at all. But hasn't dominated the Remain vote.
2) Who do people who voted Leave in 2016 now support, compared to who they voted for in 2017?
(https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2019-11-01/Leave%20and%202017%20sankey%20proper-01.png)
So half the Leave voters who supported Labour in 2017 have gone to the Tories and BP. And Labour has attracted virtually no Leave voters from anywhere else.
3) Who do people who voted Remain in 2016 now support, compared to who they voted for in 2017?
(https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/inlineimage/2019-11-01/Remain%20and%202017%20sankey%20proper-01.png)
This was Labour's biggest group of voters in 2017. This was the one they should have consolidated. And as recently as last Xmas, most of the 2017Lab/2016Remain people (a BIG chunk of the electorate) were still supporting Labour.
But Labour f**ked it up last winter. They assumed that these supporters were in the bag. And they went after the Leave vote. Corbyn wrote an article last Xmas where he said that if there was an imminent GE, Labour would campaign as a Leave party.
And there's the result. Labour has haemorrhaged the support it needed to consolidate among Remain supporters, while winning no Leave supporters.
Monumentally bad politics.
It's not beyond salvation, but f**k, what a position to start a GE campaign from.
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It's particularly scary when you consider that the ERG control the tory party at the moment and their aim is to crash out no deal if they win.
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That is one point Sydney we can both agree on.A no deal brexit would be disastrous.
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...is Jeremy Corbyn!!
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That is one point Sydney we can both agree on.A no deal brexit would be disastrous.
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Hence why brexit party wont get the votes some think they will.
Labours other problem of course is talking to themselves. They spend a substantial amount of time doing so and not campaigning externally.
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...is Jeremy Corbyn!!
I have always said you could put a retarded Chimpanzee up as
Labour Candidate in Doncaster and it would get voted in, having seen Corbyn in action I think MOMENTUM had the same thought about the party leader!
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Labour with a more centralist Leader would wipe the floor with the racist, selfish, pompous, bigots party in December. Unfortunately I can see the Tories joining forces with whoever they need to, to form a government....
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Labour with a more centralist Leader would wipe the floor with the racist, selfish, pompous, bigots party in December. Unfortunately I can see the Tories joining forces with whoever they need to, to form a government....
This, why cant labour members see it?
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Labour with a more centralist Leader would wipe the floor with the racist, selfish, pompous, bigots party in December. Unfortunately I can see the Tories joining forces with whoever they need to, to form a government....
This, why cant labour members see it?
I suppose it is hard to improve on perfection.
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Deluded
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3 or 4 of their election candidates have been de-selected,including the one to replace John Mann, she was from Camden !!
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3 or 4 of their election candidates have been de-selected,including the one to replace John Mann, she was from Camden !!
It's the MOMENTUM agenda to replace all moderate Labour MP's with their 'Preferred' anti Semitic nut jobs, good luck to them. The Labour Party has brought this upon themselves.
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The Labour Party now suffers, badly, from what many on here accused the Tories of for years and years and years: being driven by dogma. The Labour Party is now driven by dogma. Trouble is, their dogma goes down even less well than the Torys'.
And you're right Billy. I don't know how representative I and my mates might be, but after lifetimes of voting Labour, two thirds of them, including me, will not vote Labour next month. I am disenfranchised. I wish the Monster Raving Loony Party was still around. In their absence, I hope there's an anarchist standing near me instead.
BobG
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i remember a Monty Python doing a sketch Bob which had the Very Silly Party standing.
It is a shame they aren’t for real............
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If momentum are hurting the labor party, which there appears to be agreement what on earth is the ERG doing to the conservatives and the country, incomparable.
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Fair point
There's a lot of talk about Labour having gone to the extreme. Much less about the Tories.
But they have .
This is by far the most right wing Tory party since the War. Thatcher c.1985 would be a moderate in this Tory party.
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/vote-tory-urges-former-labour-mp-ian-austin-nk52kpmng?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1573111521
Ok this guy is no fan of JC, but still staggering that someone who was a labour mp is saying vote tory... after a bad start for the Tories to the campaign this is gold for them.
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.... and this Tweet should be for them - but I think people are so polarised now that it will make not one SHRED of difference
Man who wanted an election and who campaigned for an election and who voted for an election and whose party voted for an election says he didn’t want an election. Is there anything Boris Johnson says which is actually true? Anything?
Honestly not sure what you’re meant to write about @BorisJohnson’s campaign.
It is lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie
And you can point them all out but it makes no difference.
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Both Party's did very very little to promote their causes yesterday did they.Politics is seen as a shambles at the minute with a lot of mistrust and anger directed at them all.So you would think the party's would be wanting to close ranks and not give away any own goals.Not a bit of it..
The Tory's lost a minister and are still reeling from Moggs simply shocking comment on Greenfell so not a good start for them but instead of taking advantage Labour follow it up with Tom Watson quitting in the face of momentum timed to embarrass Corbyn and Ian Austin a well respected long time Labour Mp asking the public to vote for the Tory's for the good of the Country.
You couldn't make it up,both of the party's are a absolute disgrace and even Billy and Bentley must be finding it harder and harder to make a decent case for any of them.!!!
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/vote-tory-urges-former-labour-mp-ian-austin-nk52kpmng?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1573111521
Ok this guy is no fan of JC, but still staggering that someone who was a labour mp is saying vote tory... after a bad start for the Tories to the campaign this is gold for them.
Is that any different to an MP that has switched party's from any party? they would not want you to vote for their previous party, this is only a bit different because the Murdoch media are making the most of it as you would expect bfyp.
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Well yes it is tbh..Most people who have swapped party's have done so mainly on there own personal opinion of brexit and have swapped to be independent or joined a party which match their views.
They don't come out and absolutely rip their old party to bits on what they stand for and beg the electorate to vote for someone else to protect the country...
And I'm not sure you can blame the right wing press for this one Sydney,the torys have had a bashing in the press on similar level to Labour.Even the Daily Mail took Mogg to task on Greenfell this week.
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Ian Austin works for the Tories as an envoy to Israel, hence his article in the Jewish Chronicle.
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i remember a Monty Python doing a sketch Bob which had the Very Silly Party standing.
It is a shame they aren’t for real............
Can’t get the quote quite right but the candidate was called Tarquin Fin Tim Lin Bin Whin Bim Lim Bus Stop Ftang Ftang Ole Biscuit-Barrel..
I’ll try and find the accurate quote.. edited assuming Wiki is correct..
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The Labour Party now suffers, badly, from what many on here accused the Tories of for years and years and years: being driven by dogma. The Labour Party is now driven by dogma. Trouble is, their dogma goes down even less well than the Torys'.
I think the the electorate's karma is about to run over their dogma Bob :blush:
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i remember a Monty Python doing a sketch Bob which had the Very Silly Party standing.
It is a shame they aren’t for real............
This one hound. https://vimeo.com/338490074
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/vote-tory-urges-former-labour-mp-ian-austin-nk52kpmng?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1573111521
Ok this guy is no fan of JC, but still staggering that someone who was a labour mp is saying vote tory... after a bad start for the Tories to the campaign this is gold for them.
Is that any different to an MP that has switched party's from any party? they would not want you to vote for their previous party, this is only a bit different because the Murdoch media are making the most of it as you would expect bfyp.
Sydney, you're very very astute on politics, far more than me and others, but the area you fall down on is your obsession with newspapers. That story today has been on ALL the TV news channels for most of the day.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the Murdoch media.
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SS,
"Nothing whatsoever to do with the Murdoch media".
Austin and Woodcock have not been Labour MP's for a long time.
Instead of resigning and fighting a by-election, they have taken the Frank Field option and continued to draw the salary they won by standing for Labour.
Now they are about to lose the paycheck, they come out of the woodwork for Johnson, despite standing on a platform to oppose the Tories. No surprise, to me anyway!
There would be no point in a futile gesture unless the media look to big it up. The timing to announce today is to distract media focus from the Labour launch of the John McDonnell programme.
This only works with the active support of the media pack...storm in a teacup raised up to significant move.
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SS,
"Nothing whatsoever to do with the Murdoch media".
Austin and Woodcock have not been Labour MP's for a long time.
Instead of resigning and fighting a by-election, they have taken the Frank Field option and continued to draw the salary they won by standing for Labour.
Now they are about to lose the paycheck, they come out of the woodwork for Johnson, despite standing on a platform to oppose the Tories. No surprise, to me anyway!
There would be no point in a futile gesture unless the media look to big it up. The timing to announce today is to distract media focus from the Labour launch of the John McDonnell programme.
This only works with the active support of the media pack...storm in a teacup raised up to significant move.
That's not what I'm talking about Albie; I'm talking about the way it was reported on the news broadcasts on all the TV channels. All they did was report it. No opinions on it whatsoever.
There's a massive difference in impartiality between TV reporters and newspaper journalists. That's why I never read newspapers. They're too politically biased.
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Perhaps the most terrifying thing about our whole political situation, is the realisation that we share these islands with literally millions of people who will happily vote for the #ToxicTories 😲
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i remember a Monty Python doing a sketch Bob which had the Very Silly Party standing.
It is a shame they aren’t for real............
This one hound. https://vimeo.com/338490074
That is the one NNK.
As for “it’s a shame they aren’t for real”, well we all know they are but they go under different names.
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Ian Austin works for the Tories as an envoy to Israel, hence his article in the Jewish Chronicle.
As a trade envoy and unpaid? Is this not labour's problem a great big failure to listen to criticism?
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Austin does not work for the tories, he works for the government as does another labour parliamentary candidate
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/vote-tory-urges-former-labour-mp-ian-austin-nk52kpmng?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1573111521
Ok this guy is no fan of JC, but still staggering that someone who was a labour mp is saying vote tory... after a bad start for the Tories to the campaign this is gold for them.
Is that any different to an MP that has switched party's from any party? they would not want you to vote for their previous party, this is only a bit different because the Murdoch media are making the most of it as you would expect bfyp.
Sydney, you're very very astute on politics, far more than me and others, but the area you fall down on is your obsession with newspapers. That story today has been on ALL the TV news channels for most of the day.
Nothing whatsoever to do with the Murdoch media.
Steve, I/we don't get the total wall of Brexit news here and before I went to bed around lunch (DMT) Donny mean time I had only read it in the Times. I should have understood it would be blasted across everywhere by the time I got up, just now.
added
I'll take this one on the chin
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And unfortunately, here's the root cause of Labour's problems.
Read the first section of this article.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/what-is-corbynism-meaning-jack-shenker
The author relates the passion of 1500 Labour activists, convinced that Corbyn is right. Convinced that, because THEY are so passionately behind Corbyn, the polls are wrong.
1500 people. 0.005% of the electorate...
And there's the problem in a nutshell. A tiny fraction of the electorate has taken control of the Labour party. And they know, just KNOW that they are right. And they cannot be challenged. Not practically, because their votes dominate the party. And not intellectually, because...well, they are right. And the rest of us on the Left are wrong.
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And unfortunately, here's the root cause of Labour's problems.
Read the first section of this article.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/what-is-corbynism-meaning-jack-shenker
The author relates the passion of 1500 Labour activists, convinced that Corbyn is right. Convinced that, because THEY are so passionately behind Corbyn, the polls are wrong.
1500 people. 0.005% of the electorate...
And there's the problem in a nutshell. A tiny fraction of the electorate has taken control of the Labour party. And they know, just KNOW that they are right. And they cannot be challenged. Not practically, because their votes dominate the party. And not intellectually, because...well, they are right. And the rest of us on the Left are wrong.
Nope read the whole article.
The point the author makes is that 'Corbynism' is not about Corbyn but the young active, radical, membership and it is them and their policies, such as the Green New Deal, that are going to be the future of the Labour party long after Corbyn retires.
He also makes the point that most 'Blairite' 'social democrats' don't appear to recognise or accept this - a point admirably proven by your post.
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As I stated above, the problem Labour have is JC.... I don't totally agree with Labour's policies and don't fully believe they will all be affordable but the country cannot go on the way it is that is quite obvious... The country is more at odds with itself than I can ever remember and has totally lost trust in the political system... A positive change is needed, that simply won't happen under a Tory government, totally set upon selling the core of our services to Trump and making the poor poorer and the rich richer...
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Yes Wilts. I read the entire article. It was much if the same. Equating the zeal of the zealots with a belief that they will win.
I'm a socialist by the way. Always have been, always will be. Just tempered by the understanding that socialists who are unelectable are pointless. You make my point for me by assuming that someone who doesn't subscribe to the Cult of Corbyn is not a socialist.
And I'll tell you now. If you're positioning people like me outside the tent, your Labour party will never win a majority. Because I'm to the Left of 80% of the electorate.
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Yes Wilts. I read the entire article. It was much if the same. Equating the zeal of the zealots with a belief that they will win.
I'm a socialist by the way. Always have been, always will be. Just tempered by the understanding that socialists who are unelectable are pointless. You make my point for me by assuming that someone who doesn't subscribe to the Cult of Corbyn is not a socialist.
And I'll tell you now. If you're positioning people like me outside the tent, your Labour party will never win a majority. Because I'm to the Left of 80% of the electorate.
Ooof William,
I had not realised just how disillusioned Labour supporters are with this bloke.
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Don't get me wrong RD. I want him to win. I'll be campaigning for him to win. But I don't believe he will. I think he's made a catastrophic mess of Brexit when he had an open goal last Xmas. And I just don't see a Corbyn-led Labour pulling that back.
But you cannot have that discussion inside the Labour party, because there's a cult of personality that sees every criticism as a mortal threat.
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The current Labour position does not inspire leavers or remainers. That's a very big problem.
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That's the issue RD.
Corbyn has never inspired people outside a hardcore of committed supporters.
The fundamental mistake that his team made was to convince themselves that Labour did so well in 2017 BECAUSE of Corbyn. Whereas the truth is that, even in that relative success, he had historically awful approval ratings.
The tragedy is that Labour's domestic policies are,for the most part, both excellent and popular, just like they were in 2017.
But he's not. And as Wilts demonstrates, you can't point that out in the modern Labour party without being accused of being against the policies.
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Yes. And they need to recognise May was awful just awful. A hopeless campaigner and to top it off she did the dirty on her big support base and suggested older people would have to contribute more. It's a wonder they managed to cling on.
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The telling thing is RD that for almost the entire period 2016-19, May, who was undoubtedly in the worst 3 post-war PMs was ahead of Corbyn in the "Best Leader" polls.
That's the truth that cannot be discussed in the modern Labour party.
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I think I will vote for the yorkshire Party again. I don't care that it's a wasted vote, I'm convinced the region is ignored and needs desperately to have more control of its affairs.
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The labour party seems really good at convincing itself its winning at all times, almost like it talks to itself. There are plenty of voters who dont vote labour but could. There are some.very admirable policies. But as bst says disagree with one or two others and you get slaughtered by them. There seems to be a tendency that you have to be super lefty labour (technical term that) or you aren't welcome. I'm not sure how that delivers a majority for them. To get that they need to be more towards the centre (like Blair was), yet it wont now happen and thus the only way they can win is to criticise other parties and that often tends to be the approach.
Just look at the last election. They lost. Yet activists, members etc will act as if they won. Yes they stopped a tory majority, but not a tory government. It was a failure and this time round is Corbyn's last chance.
For me Corbyn and the attack on successful businesses are the problem. Some of the policies like green policies, power to the north etc are very good. Increasing taxes and state ownership really are not imo. I've also just as I said found labour activists hard to engage with, those I've spoke to you just can't discuss things with.
Also on the young, that's been the case for very long time, why do so many of this young become none labour voters as they age? Is it to do with wealth, lifestyle, intelligence, knowledge?
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It's certainly true bfyp but you could just about put the same argument to the erg/tories, 21 expelled like naughty bboys and girls only some readmitted when they promised to behave.
added, but I concede it appears to be more of a problem for labor voters than it does tory voters, who knows why? serious question?
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Yes Wilts. I read the entire article. It was much if the same. Equating the zeal of the zealots with a belief that they will win.
I'm a socialist by the way. Always have been, always will be. Just tempered by the understanding that socialists who are unelectable are pointless. You make my point for me by assuming that someone who doesn't subscribe to the Cult of Corbyn is not a socialist.
And I'll tell you now. If you're positioning people like me outside the tent, your Labour party will never win a majority. Because I'm to the Left of 80% of the electorate.
Again you are either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what the article says.
It specifically says there is no cult of Corbyn - Corbyn is just the current face of a mass movement of young people wanting change - and working hard to try and achieve it.
I have no idea what the result of this election will be, my guess is a hung parliament, but there does seem to be an energy about Labour's campaign so it wont be for lack of trying.
Corbyn will go but this people will carry on. You and me are the past now but I think the future of a left-wing socialist political party in this country is in good hands.
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I agree with a great deal of this article about the past and future of Labour.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/%E2%80%A8tom-watsons-exit-is-the-end-of-the-end-for-new-labour-election-december-12-corbyn
Corbyn WILL be gone soon, whatever the outcome of this election. If Labour has any sense, it will (as the article suggests) move in in a direction that keeps the domestic policies of Corbynism but dumps the infantile foreign policy and the destructive sectarian suspicions that his generation of the Far Left are steeped in.
Only one thing worries me about that article.
It entirely ignores the consequences for the Left of losing this election, especially losing it badly. The consequence of a Johnson administration let off the leash. And the reaction of the idealistic younger generation if Corbyn's Labour badly let them down over this and Brexit. That could lead to another cycle of internal war in Labour. And none of it needed to happen.