Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: wing commander on November 26, 2019, 09:56:24 am
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So just how damaging is this for Labour??.At the last cencus which was quite a while ago it was thought there were around 285,000 Jewish people in the UK.The head Rabbi in one stroke has taken the vast majority of those votes off table.That was a strong statement.
Anti Semitism in the Labour party is not something I've commented on much as I simply don't know enough of the internal wranglings of the Labour party to know much about how deep rooted it is.However my gut feeling from the outside looking in is that whilst it obviously has existed the extent of it is probably massively exaggerated,although the independent investigation into it will tell us more..
The bbc are reporting that in some constituency's with a large Jewish community, Labour are expecting to lose those seats for the first time in a long time according to local Labour activists on the ground.
Obviously he has timed this statement to get maximum headlines and effect, but with Labour so far not getting the reaction to their campaign they were hoping for every seat is vital to try and stop a Tory majority which is there best hope.
I'm not sure any religious body should be making statements like that and I'm not even convinced it helps sort the problem out whatever it's extent.That statement has probably fuelled anti Semitism rather than stopped it...
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Definitely a political statement WC, made on the day this is released, I'm thinking this is straight out Cummings bag of dirty trick, the chief rabbit is being used.
11.30am: Jeremy Corbyn launches Labour’s race and faith manifesto with Dawn Butler, the shadow minister for women and equalities, at an event in Tottenham in London.
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I'm fully in agreement with you on the Political statement Sydney timed for maximum effect..Whether Cummings has had anything to do with it might be pushing the boundary's a bit though..lol
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Here's a different perspective
Always with the oppressed; never with the oppressor.
A community for Jewish Labour party members
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/
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I don't expect it will make much difference to anyone who isn't Jewish really. It's not a new claim and those who are of a labour persusasion argue fiercely against the claim anyway, so it won't change their view.
Corbyn has made some errors in his dealing with this - his conversation with the activist who'd been racist at an event laughing and joking was not a good look. But I do not think he is a racist or that he wants anti semitism in the party, his lack of response, yes an error and doesn't help him but I personally think the chief rabbi is going a bit too far. Having said that, is it our place as non Jews to determine how a lot of Jews feel right now and is there a risk? I guess we can all understand their fear given the last century, though I feel it is not a major issue.
The negative really is some activists who simply gang up on anyone who raises a concern, doesn't make the party anti semitic though, an issue yes but it's not the end of the world.
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What I don't get about this is the big political picture.
The Chief Rabbi is effectively telling the country that Jews want the GE outcome to be a Tory Govt.
That's fine. He has a right to do that.
But this Tory party has deliberately allied itself in the European Parliament with out and out anti-Semitic parties of the far Right. It left the mainstream EPP group, which most centre-right parties adhere to, and joined the far-Right ECR group.
That includes, among others:
-The Law and Justice Party in Poland which brought in a law making it illegal to criticise Poland for any role in the Holocaust.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/poland-holocaust-law/552842/
-The Swedish Democrats, whose members have a long track record of anti-Semitic comments.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-swedish-politicians-make-anti-semitic-statements-mock-anne-frank/
-The Latvian National Alliance who have campaigned for a national holiday to commemorate Latvian soldiers who fought with the SS in WWII.
I'm not saying Labour doesn't have a problem with some hateful anti-Semites. And I do think Corbyn should have been far more aggressive in rooting this out.
But it is a thoroughly one-sided view from the Jewish leaders, to call out Labour, but be silent on the Tories.
Which makes me wonder if there are other political things at play here.
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Lets hope the (unknown) MILLIONS of Muslims will remember similarly the crass and despicable things Johnson has levellled at Islam
Also when they were electing a Leader they all promised to root out Islamaphobia in THEIR Party and that has been downgraded somewhat
And remember HE had a chance and was asked twice if he wanted to apologise for the comments he had made but did not ...... and if he doesnt lie which he assures us he DOESNT then he must have meant what he called them
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Disgracefu lintervention by a religious figure in a secular election.
The Chief Rabbi needs to look at Corbyn's record on this issue before commenting on his suitability as PM:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKQA2siXYAAKS5f.jpg
Leaders of religious groups are there to advise on religious matters.
Do we think leaders of the Muslim community should tell people not to vote Tory?
The Chief Rabbi has allowed himself to be used, and needs to consider his position IMO.
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What have they done?. Genuine question
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The chief Rabbi having his ten pen worth says it all really, the Labour Party in its current form is regarded by the British Jews as a threat, great statesmen such as Hoare Belisha will be turning in their graves!.
Corbyn laizez fair attitude to it all is one of the major issues.
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Some context (with data) shows that the chief rabbi does not speak for all Jewish opinion;
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/smoke-without-fire-the-myth-of-a-labour-antisemitism-crisis/
You can make a case for commenting upon the Labour Party process, but the personal attack is beyond the pale.
Corbyn's record in opposing racism is clear and well established.
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The thing that gets me is that Corbyn, in response, has come out with probably his most unequivocal and direct statement yet as labour leader.
Why could he not have done this months (or even years) ago?
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The chief Rabbi having his ten pen worth says it all really, the Labour Party in its current form is regarded by the British Jews as a threat, great statesmen such as Hoare Belisha will be turning in their graves!.
Corbyn laizez fair attitude to it all is one of the major issues.
The Chief Rabbi is good mates with Boris Johnson, it was a Part Political Broadcast on behalf of the Conservative Party
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If we had any Jewish posters on this forum, I wonder what they might say about this.
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The more I think about this, the more worrying it seems.
Labour DOES have a problem with some anti-Semitic members, but it would be astonishing if a party with half a million members didn't have some sociopaths in its ranks. I'm not condoning that, but there's some perspective needed here.
The Chief Rabbi's comments today are grossly over the top. At the very worst there is a fraction of a percent of Labour members who are having disciplinary action taken against them for anti-Semitic remarks and no-one is saying that there are hundreds or thousands more to be rooted out.
In that context, the CR has gone wildly over the top. The problem is, the resentment that could be caused by this clear and obvious meddling in an election by someone who should be impartial could well lead to a genuine upwelling of anti-Jewish feeling.
It's also notable that two prominent Labour politicians have been expelled (Livingston and Williamson) for apparently anti-Semitic remarks, none of which were directly insulting at an entire group of people, yet the man (sic) who runs the country has talked of Muslim women looking like letter boxes, blacks being pickaninnies with watermelon smiles and gays being bum boys, and no one in the Tory party even considers taking him to task.
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I've been out canvassing today Hound, with a Jewish member of the Labour party. He was apoplectic at the Chief Rabbi purporting to represent him.
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I think the chief rabbi has a perfect right to comment publicly on a matter in which his congregation/community are concerned about. And of course anyone with a brain cell should be concerned about the rise of anti-semitism in any society.
I am not sure this was a particularly wise intervention at this point in a GE campaign - as shown by the way it now seems to have escalated into other faith communities, the Hindus and Sikihs being the latest to become involved. As the chief rabbi he should really be looking at ways of healing divisions - not widening them.
I think it is also worth noting that last week a far-right sympathiser was jailed for a plot to attack a synagogue and to date three candidates have been dropped by their party from the GE for anti-semitic views. 2 Tory and 1 LD.
I don't believe there has been any major incident with a Labour Party member since the investigations started. So why he felt he had to make this point at this time, only he can explain.
As I said when we first discussed this: the Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism. Anti-semitism is being used to attack the Labour leadership. Both of these things can be true at the same time.
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I could be wrong on this wilts is that not the point 2 tories have been dropped and a Lib Dem meaning there actively doing something about it?
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The point I was making is that the most recent anti-semitic issues have not involved the Labour Party - yet the chief rabbi did not think this worth mentioning.
This does not absolve the Labour Party from dealing with ani-semitism in their party, but you would expect that if the chief rabbi is going to make a major intervention during a GE campaign it might be worth highlighting. Why he didn't is for you and him to judge.
One of the candidates was a holocaust denier btw - which I don't believe any case involving a Labour member has been?
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I honestly don't think that I can ever remember anyone that has had a grudge against the Jews as such.
One or two made comments or jokes about them being tight but similar jokes were told about Scots and Yorkshiremen.
Dislike of Israeli policy shouldn't reflect on Jews living here that possibly don't agree with what is happening there.
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I could be wrong on this wilts is that not the point 2 tories have been dropped and a Lib Dem meaning there actively doing something about it?
Bpool.
Labour dropped Chris Williamson and Ken Livingstone months ago.
In Williamson's case, his crime was to publicly wonder whether Labour was allowing itself to be unfairly tarred with the anti-Semitic brush.
Compare and contrast with the Prime Minister's career long record of racist writings. Has he been suspended?
Or this lovely example.
https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2019/11/lincoln-conservative-candidate-karl-mccartney-faces-suspension-calls-far-right-retweets/
The Tory party have not taken any action against him.
And, oddly, the Chief Rabbi hasn't complained about him either. I can't think why not...
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I’ve not followed it that closely bst thanks for reply
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Something must be upsetting the Jewish community to do with labour thou?
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Well something is certainly upsetting the LEADERS of the Jewish community.
My two pennorth for what it's worth is that this whole affair has shown one of Corbyn's major political weaknesses though. He should have stamped on this issue years ago. The stupidity of arguing the toss on fine points of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism last year turned this into a major stick to hit Labour with. Corbyn should have closed down debate immediately last year and said we accept the IHRA definition, full stop. Instead the discussion went in and on and f**king on all Summer 2018 and the idea of Labour as anti-Semitic (it's not) and Corbyn as anti-Semitic (I don't believe he is) took root.
What he never seems to have quite grasped is that leading a national party is not the same as debating ideology in an Islington community centre. There are times when you have to show leadership and shut folk up, for the greater good.
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Again thank you for reply, is it to late to change there feeling towards him?
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I've been out canvassing today Hound, with a Jewish member of the Labour party. He was apoplectic at the Chief Rabbi purporting to represent him.
Sorry for the late response here BST but I have only just noticed your reply to my earlier post.
I too have a Jewish friend and he is appalled that the anti semitism within the Labour Party.
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Who'd have thought it? Different Jews have different opinions?
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For example, this was the opinion of the Chief Rabbi earlier this summer.
"Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis wrote on Facebook: “I am delighted to congratulate Boris Johnson, a longstanding friend and champion of the Jewish community, on becoming the next leader of the Conservative Party and our next Prime Minister. As he accepts upon himself the mantle of responsibility to lead our nation, may he be blessed with the wisdom to successfully navigate the political uncertainties we face and bring healing and prosperity to our great country.”"
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/jewish-leaders-looking-forward-to-working-with-next-pm-boris-johnson/
I'm sure not all Jews delightedly congratulated Johnson or considered him a long-standing friend.
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Well yes, obviously not all Jews will have met him will they.
But as you rightly said earlier, different Jews, different opinions.
Not quite the one sided thing that you had implied about your friends opinion being a a Labour love in.
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I didn't imply anything. You were asking about Jewish opinion. I gave an example.
The quote from the Chief Rabbi that I just posted does raise the question of his personal impartiality though, no?
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I didn't imply anything. You were asking about Jewish opinion. I gave an example.
The quote from the Chief Rabbi that I just posted does raise the question of his personal impartiality though, no?
......and I gave a second example of Jewish opinion.
Yes, I do agree that the CRs comments are his personal opinion but then your comments about the Tories are your personal opinions too aren’t they.
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Hound.
I think you are missing the point.
The Chief Rabbi has a position in which he is supposed to speak on behalf of his entire flock. But, as with everything, opinions differ among individuals in a large group.
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Hound.
I think you are missing the point.
The Chief Rabbi has a position in which he is supposed to speak on behalf of his entire flock. But, as with everything, opinions differ among individuals in a large group.
But isn’t Corbyn in a position to speak for the a Labour Party and everyone knows that not every Party member agrees with him.
The same applies to Boris too.
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I'm afraid you've lost me on that point.
They are politicians, not unelected religious leaders. There's a reason why the tradition is that religious leaders don't get involved in general election debates.
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I don't believe for a minute that Jeremy Corbyn has a racist bone in his body. He's just not that kind of person. What he is amounts to being a ditherer, and very stubborn.
He was asked again today for the umpteenth time for an apology. What would be wrong by putting this thing to bed by simply saying "Look, if some Jewish Labour Party members feel offended by other members' comments, then the Labour Party as a whole apologises"? What could be more simple than that?
Then, to make matters worse, that obnoxious Barry Gardiner aggressively attacked the female journalist asking the question.
Can't they see that millions of people are scrutinising them at the moment?
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I don't believe for a minute that Jeremy Corbyn has a racist bone in his body. He's just not that kind of person. What he is amounts to being a ditherer, and very stubborn.
He was asked again today for the umpteenth time for an apology. What would be wrong by putting this thing to bed by simply saying "Look, if some Jewish Labour Party members feel offended by other members' comments, then the Laboour Party as a whole apologises"? What could be more simple than that?
Then, to make matters worse, that obnoxious Barry Gardiner aggressively attacked the female journalist asking the question.
Can't they see that millions of people are scrutinising them at the moment?
The journalists question should have been about the News conference subject, that is what she was there for, to report on the news of the day, instead she ignored the subject totally, and was rightly told that she used that moment to have another dig
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I don't believe for a minute that Jeremy Corbyn has a racist bone in his body. He's just not that kind of person. What he is amounts to being a ditherer, and very stubborn.
He was asked again today for the umpteenth time for an apology. What would be wrong by putting this thing to bed by simply saying "Look, if some Jewish Labour Party members feel offended by other members' comments, then the Laboour Party as a whole apologises"? What could be more simple than that?
Then, to make matters worse, that obnoxious Barry Gardiner aggressively attacked the female journalist asking the question.
Can't they see that millions of people are scrutinising them at the moment?
SS
I couldn't agree more. In these circumstances, it's not just about having the right policies, it's about controlling the narrative. He could and should have put this to bed by apologising unreservedly for any perceived shortcomings in the way Labour has dealt with this issue.
I've said for a while that it was clear that some of the other big beasts in Labour have been tearing their hair out at Corbyn's amateurish approach to controlling the narrative. It's notable that both McDonnell and Starmer publicly apologised this morning. I suspect that there's been some blunt talking in Labour HQ today.
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I don't believe for a minute that Jeremy Corbyn has a racist bone in his body. He's just not that kind of person. What he is amounts to being a ditherer, and very stubborn.
He was asked again today for the umpteenth time for an apology. What would be wrong by putting this thing to bed by simply saying "Look, if some Jewish Labour Party members feel offended by other members' comments, then the Laboour Party as a whole apologises"? What could be more simple than that?
Then, to make matters worse, that obnoxious Barry Gardiner aggressively attacked the female journalist asking the question.
Can't they see that millions of people are scrutinising them at the moment?
SS
I couldn't agree more. In these circumstances, it's not just about having the right policies, it's about controlling the narrative. He could and should have put this to bed by apologising unreservedly for any perceived shortcomings in the way Labour has dealt with this issue.
I've said for a while that it was clear that some of the other big beasts in Labour have been tearing their hair out at Corbyn's amateurish approach to controlling the narrative. It's notable that both McDonnell and Starmer publicly apologised this morning. I suspect that there's been some blunt talking in Labour HQ today.
We're agreeing again. This has got to stop.
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I don't believe for a minute that Jeremy Corbyn has a racist bone in his body. He's just not that kind of person. What he is amounts to being a ditherer, and very stubborn.
He was asked again today for the umpteenth time for an apology. What would be wrong by putting this thing to bed by simply saying "Look, if some Jewish Labour Party members feel offended by other members' comments, then the Labour Party as a whole apologises"? What could be more simple than that?
Then, to make matters worse, that obnoxious Barry Gardiner aggressively attacked the female journalist asking the question.
Can't they see that millions of people are scrutinising them at the moment?
That's the Barry Gardiner, member and former Vice-Chair of Labour Friends of Israel, who was described by the Jewish Chronicle as one of Israel's staunchest supporters and who gave a very emotional speech during the HoC anti-semitism debate is it?
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/pro-israel-mp-fires-pro-palestinian-staffer-1.11312
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/emotional-barry-gardiner-laments-labours-14028309
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Well yes, obviously not all Jews will have met him will they.
But as you rightly said earlier, different Jews, different opinions.
Not quite the one sided thing that you had implied about your friends opinion being a a Labour love in.
Let me remind you of a couple of other people that HAVE met him, Hound. Have known him quite a long time in actual fact, a brother and sister. All the evidence shows they don't reckon much of him as a politician. To say and do on record what they have about their brother I'd say they don't much rate him as a person either.
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I don't believe for a minute that Jeremy Corbyn has a racist bone in his body. He's just not that kind of person. What he is amounts to being a ditherer, and very stubborn.
He was asked again today for the umpteenth time for an apology. What would be wrong by putting this thing to bed by simply saying "Look, if some Jewish Labour Party members feel offended by other members' comments, then the Laboour Party as a whole apologises"? What could be more simple than that?
Then, to make matters worse, that obnoxious Barry Gardiner aggressively attacked the female journalist asking the question.
Can't they see that millions of people are scrutinising them at the moment?
SS
I couldn't agree more. In these circumstances, it's not just about having the right policies, it's about controlling the narrative. He could and should have put this to bed by apologising unreservedly for any perceived shortcomings in the way Labour has dealt with this issue.
I've said for a while that it was clear that some of the other big beasts in Labour have been tearing their hair out at Corbyn's amateurish approach to controlling the narrative. It's notable that both McDonnell and Starmer publicly apologised this morning. I suspect that there's been some blunt talking in Labour HQ today.
We're agreeing again. This has got to stop.
That makes three of us then. Love in ?
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I don't believe for a minute that Jeremy Corbyn has a racist bone in his body. He's just not that kind of person. What he is amounts to being a ditherer, and very stubborn.
He was asked again today for the umpteenth time for an apology. What would be wrong by putting this thing to bed by simply saying "Look, if some Jewish Labour Party members feel offended by other members' comments, then the Labour Party as a whole apologises"? What could be more simple than that?
Then, to make matters worse, that obnoxious Barry Gardiner aggressively attacked the female journalist asking the question.
Can't they see that millions of people are scrutinising them at the moment?
That's the Barry Gardiner, member and former Vice-Chair of Labour Friends of Israel, who was described by the Jewish Chronicle as one of Israel's staunchest supporters and who gave a very emotional speech during the HoC anti-semitism debate is it?
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/pro-israel-mp-fires-pro-palestinian-staffer-1.11312
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/emotional-barry-gardiner-laments-labours-14028309
Which strengthens my point Wilts. If there's no animosity towards Jewish people, then just apologise to those Jewish MPs who feel offended, put the whole thing to bed, and move on.
There are millions of floating voters watching all this, and Labour need to get them onside to even have a chance of a hung parliament.