Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Axholme Lion on December 10, 2019, 02:53:17 pm
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If Labour bring in a minimum wage of £10 per hour, what will happen to all the people now on more than the current minimum wage but below £10 per hour when they see people doing easier, less responsible jobs than themselves put onto an equal footing as themselves? It can't be right for them not to expect a rise to keep the differential there but will it happen in reality. If you can get £10 per hour on a supermarket checkout why bother doing anything more taxing if you're currently on £9.50 per hour for doing a more difficult job?
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That's the whole point. It pushes up ALL low wages.
It's a step on the road to start changing the last 40 years, where low wages have been kept low, with the proceeds of growth going disproportionately to the richest. It desperately needs addressing, both for economic reasons (because the poorest proportionally spend more of their income and help get money circulating through the economy) and morally (because the levels of working poverty we have in Britain are an utter disgrace).
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That's the whole point. It pushes up ALL low wages.
It's a step on the road to start changing the last 40 years, where low wages have been kept low, with the proceeds of growth going disproportionately to the richest. It desperately needs addressing, both for economic reasons (because the poorest proportionally spend more of their income and help get money circulating through the economy) and morally (because the levels of working poverty we have in Britain are an utter disgrace).
But do you really think it would? If i'm on a tenner an hour now and some 21 year old gets lumped up to £10 p/h from £8.21 p/h, do you really see my employer saying there you go have another £1.79 p/h on me? It would be nice but all I could see happening is employers making staff redundant to fund the difference.
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It's precisely what I've just done in my company. A young lad has finished his apprenticeship. We put him up to a significantly higher wage and upped the lads who were above him too.
By the way, the Tories said for years that the minimum wage would destroy jobs. It doesn't.
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Yep BST and that is a good thing to do but I think that AL has a point there because not everyone will do what you have done.
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It's precisely what I've just done in my company. A young lad has finished his apprenticeship. We put him up to a significantly higher wage and upped the lads who were above him too.
By the way, the Tories said for years that the minimum wage would destroy jobs. It doesn't.
I applaud what you have done, however I can assure you that would definitely not be the case where I work. They would come up with every excuse in the book that they couldn't afford it. I am sure that this would be the case in the majority of companies.
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Then folk need to push back. If we still had strong unions...
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I don’t understand the call for Unions.
Anyone who has been on strike for any length of time will not recover the money they lose when on strike unless they get an enormous pay rise.
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Then folk need to push back. If we still had strong unions...
That's all well and good in a larger company but at the smaller end of the scale where there are only one or two hundred employees the management can make whatever decision they see fit. All my manager sees is their personal bonus for departmental profitability. I think raising the minimum wage is great for the lower end younger workers but could be unfair towards more senior and older workers who should be paid more.
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Hound
There were some figures published a few years ago.
Back in the 60s and 70s, when we had strong unions, for every £1 that GDP went up, median wages went up 90p. By 2010, with the unions smashed, the figure was 57p.
Just ponder that for a while.
THAT is the issue. It's a long term thing. 1% here and there is NOT worth fighting for, you're right. But over a generation, if the workers are weak, those 1%s get lost year after year after year. And it adds up to the grotesquely unequal distribution of the proceeds of growth and the in-work poverty we have today.
Oh aye. And we had stronger economic growth in the 60s and 70s than we have today. The line that the unions weakened the economy is demonstrable bullshit.
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Hound
There were some figures published a few years ago.
Back in the 60s and 70s, when we had strong unions, for every £1 that GDP went up, median wages went up 90p. By 2010, with the unions smashed, the figure was 57p.
Just ponder that for a while.
THAT is the issue. It's a long term thing. 1% here and there is NOT worth fighting for, you're right. But over a generation, if the workers are weak, those 1%s get lost year after year after year. And it adds up to the grotesquely unequal distribution of the proceeds of growth and the in-work poverty we have today.
Oh aye. And we had stronger economic growth in the 60s and 70s than we have today. The line that the unions weakened the economy is demonstrable bullshit.
Isn't that before we joined the EEC/EU? :)
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BST, that won’t be much consolation to the miners or the steel workers I guess.
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People like me can't afford to employ young people now.
You don't get what you pay for.
Bring back the YTS scheme.
Young lads now expect £400 a week for doing f**k all whilst looking at their phones.
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It's precisely what I've just done in my company. A young lad has finished his apprenticeship. We put him up to a significantly higher wage and upped the lads who were above him too.
By the way, the Tories said for years that the minimum wage would destroy jobs. It doesn't.
I fundamentally disagree with that, simply because I have recommended and actually reduced working hours personally to staff when minimum wages have increased.
See here is a problem, often the price has to be pushed back on to somebody and in some cases if the client cannot afford it there is a choice to be made and they see a reduction in service.
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When you have had a pay rise have you reduced your own hours bfyp?
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BFYP.
I'm talking about the effect on a national scale.
https://minimumwage.blog.gov.uk/2019/02/01/effects-of-the-minimum-wage-on-employment-and-automaton-lpc-publishes-new-commissioned-research/
If decent sized companies can't survive without paying their staff less than a tenner an hour, that raises questions about their business model.
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When you have had a pay rise have you reduced your own hours bfyp?
I am not paid hourly and nor is my pay linked to minimum wage so it's irrelevant.
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Of course :)
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BFYP.
I'm talking about the effect on a national scale.
https://minimumwage.blog.gov.uk/2019/02/01/effects-of-the-minimum-wage-on-employment-and-automaton-lpc-publishes-new-commissioned-research/
If decent sized companies can't survive without paying their staff less than a tenner an hour, that raises questions about their business model.
In a lot of industries, retail, private sector outsourcing etc the models do not allow for that kind of increase.
Now it is done it should be stable, but for some businesses a 15-20% increase in salaries just is not viable.
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
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This could be why workers can't get a pat rise bfyp?
Workers pay the price for rising shareholder profits
https://corporate-responsibility.org/workers-pay-price-rising-shareholder-profits/
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
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Rich/BFYP. Those are precisely the criticisms that were made when the minimum wage first came in. They've been debunked all over the world.
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
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Low wages reduces innovation and progress, more progress more efficient industry more jobs.
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business. That's got sod all to do with the consumer paying. If a business can't afford to pay £10 per hour then the business model is a failure and the owners shouldn't be in business. It's stupid to suggest that owners/shareholders should benefit from low wages! Owners/share holders should be out of business and get nothing if their business model can't support a £10 minimum wage.
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If you're are not on an hourly rate and your wages are not linked to minimum pay, any rises you get don't affect consumer prices, apparently :)
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business. That's got sod all to do with the consumer paying. If a business can't afford to pay £10 per hour then the business model is a failure and the owners shouldn't be in business. It's stupid to suggest that owners/shareholders should benefit from low wages! Owners/share holders should be out of business and get nothing if their business model can't support a £10 minimum wage.
Are you on drugs? Where can I get one of these mythical jobs?
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business. That's got sod all to do with the consumer paying. If a business can't afford to pay £10 per hour then the business model is a failure and the owners shouldn't be in business. It's stupid to suggest that owners/shareholders should benefit from low wages! Owners/share holders should be out of business and get nothing if their business model can't support a £10 minimum wage.
Are you on drugs? Where can I get one of these mythical jobs?
Seems it's you that must be on drugs. What mythical jobs are you referring to?
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If you're are not on an hourly rate and your wages are not linked to minimum pay, any rises you get don't affect consumer prices, apparently :)
Well my salary wouldn't given that my salary is entirely not connected to any consumer process at all and that there's one of me doing the job in the company, a small change in my salary is so insignificant it doesn't register, 10% for a range of others is huge. What you are demonstrating is a clear lack of knowledge as to how these things work and trying to inform someone who actually does this kind of stuff for a living that they don't do it, bizarre.
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business. That's got sod all to do with the consumer paying. If a business can't afford to pay £10 per hour then the business model is a failure and the owners shouldn't be in business. It's stupid to suggest that owners/shareholders should benefit from low wages! Owners/share holders should be out of business and get nothing if their business model can't support a £10 minimum wage.
Are you on drugs? Where can I get one of these mythical jobs?
Seems it's you that must be on drugs. What mythical jobs are you referring to?
The ones paying a basic of a tenner an hour.
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business. That's got sod all to do with the consumer paying. If a business can't afford to pay £10 per hour then the business model is a failure and the owners shouldn't be in business. It's stupid to suggest that owners/shareholders should benefit from low wages! Owners/share holders should be out of business and get nothing if their business model can't support a £10 minimum wage.
Are you on drugs? Where can I get one of these mythical jobs?
Seems it's you that must be on drugs. What mythical jobs are you referring to?
The ones paying a basic of a tenner an hour.
£10/hr is about two thirds of the average wage. That shows there are plenty of them out there!!
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business. That's got sod all to do with the consumer paying. If a business can't afford to pay £10 per hour then the business model is a failure and the owners shouldn't be in business. It's stupid to suggest that owners/shareholders should benefit from low wages! Owners/share holders should be out of business and get nothing if their business model can't support a £10 minimum wage.
Are you on drugs? Where can I get one of these mythical jobs?
Seems it's you that must be on drugs. What mythical jobs are you referring to?
The ones paying a basic of a tenner an hour.
Keep up AL, the point was that the minimum wage SHOULD be £10 an hour, and if a company couldn't afford to pay that then they have a very poor business model!
Oh, and there are loads of jobs paying £10 an hour and more.
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Apply that acxross retail, what happens to the prices you pay? It's the consumer who pays it, your options are fairly limited.
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business. That's got sod all to do with the consumer paying. If a business can't afford to pay £10 per hour then the business model is a failure and the owners shouldn't be in business. It's stupid to suggest that owners/shareholders should benefit from low wages! Owners/share holders should be out of business and get nothing if their business model can't support a £10 minimum wage.
Are you on drugs? Where can I get one of these mythical jobs?
Seems it's you that must be on drugs. What mythical jobs are you referring to?
The ones paying a basic of a tenner an hour.
£10/hr is about two thirds of the average wage. That shows there are plenty of them out there!!
It doesn't take too many people earning mega bucks to pump up the average.
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It's about redistributing the wealth, that was stated right at the top of this thread. Doesn't need to cost the business any more at all, pay those at the bottom a bit more and those at the top a bit less. Or don't you like that concept BFYP?
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Surprised at you saying that, where is your evidence for your remark?
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£10 an hour would cripple most small and some large company's and the only thing that will happen is it will push up daily living expenses , in reality people will not be better off and it will put up unemployment and unskilled workers will struggle to find work if you have to pay £10 per hour
If a company can't afford to pay £10 per hour then they have no right to be in business!
Surprised at you saying that, where is your evidence for your remark?
See the post immediately above yours Sproty.
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It's about redistributing the wealth, that was stated right at the top of this thread. Doesn't need to cost the business any more at all, pay those at the bottom a bit more and those at the top a bit less. Or don't you like that concept BFYP?
Your problem there is those who make the choice arent going to do that never ever.
That and the knock on effects, much of that profit comes back to our pension funds, it amazes me how little people know of that. Even the church of england would lose out if shareholder profits drop.
Granted on a pure basis the richest will always get the most, but they will also find ways around that, unless they are taxed and even then, they'll just move. Theres far better places to live than the uk so we have to try to keep some of that contribution. If it wasnt for family (and football) I'd be gone tomorrow.
I'm going off topic there though, the point is what will the minimum wage do and what will the reaction be. You do not like the answer but that is it...
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If you're are not on an hourly rate and your wages are not linked to minimum pay, any rises you get don't affect consumer prices, apparently :)
Well my salary wouldn't given that my salary is entirely not connected to any consumer process at all and that there's one of me doing the job in the company, a small change in my salary is so insignificant it doesn't register, 10% for a range of others is huge. What you are demonstrating is a clear lack of knowledge as to how these things work and trying to inform someone who actually does this kind of stuff for a living that they don't do it, bizarre.
I was having a dig at you because the attitude that 'my' wages which of course must include all the other 'my's' across the country don't affect anything just those on lower pay therefore ot's them that shouldn't get a pay rise. bfyp
It smacks of ''we we need to keep the 'worker's' pay low so they have an incentive to work' and the 'bosses' wages high so'we have an incentive to work?????
I think you have had an empathy bypass. :)
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You are very very wrong. My points are nothing to do with my situation, nor do I set my own salary, that is not my place.
But it absolutely is my job to make decisions that are most financially beneficial to the business I work for. You dont like the answer but it is a fact. It also isnt just that, contractors and suppliers will pass on that cost also, as in the end would anyone who can competitively do so.
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Even though your wage is not connected to the consumer process it still matters in the cost of goods as the consumer index is supposed to be a reflection of how wages and prices are across the country so that part of your argument is incorrect.
so this is not happening???
''Shareholder payouts have risen 6.4 times faster than wages – TUC''
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/14/shareholder-payouts-wages-tuc
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It's about redistributing the wealth, that was stated right at the top of this thread. Doesn't need to cost the business any more at all, pay those at the bottom a bit more and those at the top a bit less. Or don't you like that concept BFYP?
Your problem there is those who make the choice arent going to do that never ever.
That and the knock on effects, much of that profit comes back to our pension funds, it amazes me how little people know of that. Even the church of england would lose out if shareholder profits drop.
Granted on a pure basis the richest will always get the most, but they will also find ways around that, unless they are taxed and even then, they'll just move. Theres far better places to live than the uk so we have to try to keep some of that contribution. If it wasnt for family (and football) I'd be gone tomorrow.
I'm going off topic there though, the point is what will the minimum wage do and what will the reaction be. You do not like the answer but that is it...
This says it all bfyp, never give those on minimum wage a pay rise, no ????
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It says what? I would argue raises that are of a smaller percentage make sense, based upon lots of things. I would also prefer a bonus structure that is standard accross a workforce but understand why that doesnt happen often.
At some point you have to give don't you? There is like it or not a reason the highest paid are the highest paid and there always will be. I'd love to be in that bracket but I dont fulfil those reasons, it's just how it is.
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'Shareholder payouts have risen 6.4 times faster than wages – TUC''
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/14/shareholder-payouts-wages-tuc
posted it again as you appear to have ignored it bfyp.
In most of your posts your saying minimum wages can't rise because od scary things happening and don't tax rich people because they'll leave, so I think my assumtions are quite reasonable that you're happy to maintain the status quo? Where those already wealthy get richer to the cost of the rest.
Yes there is a reason why the highest paid are the highest paid.
Privately educated elite continues to take top jobs, finds survey
Privately schooled people still dominate law, politics, medicine and journalism despite signs of progress, says Sutton Trust
Privately schooled people still dominate law, politics, medicine and journalism despite signs of progress, says Sutton Trust
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/feb/24/privately-educated-elite-continues-to-take-top-jobs-finds-survey
Added
And this is another reason, although an Australian story it's typical of most countries
ATO data reveals one third of large companies pay no tax
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-12/ato-corporate-tax-transparency-data-companies-no-tax-paid/11789048
I'm not saying everyone should have equal wealth/income I'm like most on the left we just want a fairer society.
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I think you struggle to differentiate between my wish and the reality of life - the reality is this is not going to change.
It would be interesting on the top jobs point to know what you define as a top job...
As for large companies paying tax, I could be here for some time discussing that. There are significant issues with the taxation of certain large companies that quite frankly need to be resolved (I think most of it is actually quite similar in the manifestos on that one, yes even the tories propose a digital tax which is warranted).
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No struggle on my part whatsoever bfyp, those before fought for the vote, better wages, the NHS, the welfare state and a myriad ot other things that are being put at risk now by the party you're voting for today.
cameron-may-johnson
In your own time tell me how they have improved britain by reducing taxes for the rich? the economy is trashed.
Selling off Royal Mail? economy trashed, etc
'The price of freedom is eternal vigilance'
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A few days old but the Conservatives have scrapped their plan to increase minimum wage. I guess they got what they needed from those people.
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For me there has to be a minimum wage but not for 16 year olds at 10 pound, people deserve to go to work and earn a amount that is worth working for saying that it will not help the people that need help the most
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They set their own target of £9 per hour "national living wage" by 2020, which they've now missed and have changed it to £8.72, resulting in a £1,600 loss for the lowest paid workers who work full-time.
And the working class continue to vote for them...
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Who was the other option ? Working class ✅ Vote Labour ❎ Never again
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The working class got the government they deserved.
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Not so NNK.
The majority of the WORKING class (i.e. those working or looking for work or about to join the labour force) voted Labour.