Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on December 13, 2019, 01:08:49 am
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Losing votes to Farage in the post-industrial North and LD/Greens in other areas.
Doesn't give me any pleasure to say but I've earned Labour friends about this for 2 years. In 2017, they convinced themselves that people voted FOR Corbyn. It was never that. They voted AGAINST May and there was no alternative but Labour. And Brexit was neutralised as an issue. So both Leave and Remain folk supported Labour.
It was obvious once Labour had to choose a policy on Brexit that they were going to have a hard time holding onto big numbers of supporters. Because the people who voted Labour in 2017 weren't committed Labour supporters. Give them an option (be it LD or Farage) and it was obvious that large numbers were going to defect.
Corbyn's spectacular achievement appears to be that he's lost support in BOTH directions.
But I'm sure it'll be Laura Kuenssberg's fault in the morning. I've already had one Corbynista mate text me saying it's all because of the media hatchet job. :police:
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The media in general are not a friend of the left and certainly not in this campaign, I'm hoping that we won't be hearing about how those with fb accounts were manipulated because I don't know how it can be stopped with any goverment prepared to accept it.
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Sydney.
That's no good. That was a given. It's why Labour HAS to have a superb leader. Especially if it is trying to push a left agenda.
If Labour consoles itself by blaming the media, we are f**ked.
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The labour chair just said that if you ignore democracy with brexit then you won’t win, people don’t want a second referendum they don’t want to rip article 50 up
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that's fairly obvious but exit poll info will make interesting reading i think
correction: will STILL make interesting reading i think
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Syd, Billy, being serious now, the people flying about in their flash cars, back to their nice house on the private estate, don't feel like labour people anymore.
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I feel the media agenda should be considered a factor on certain sectors of the population, but it isn't in the top three reasons why Labour has fallen off a cliff tonight.
I think Brexit has dominated the conversation and caused an awful lot of this. I think Jeremy Corbyn just didn't win enough widespread confidence. And I think that there are just too many deep divides within the party in terms of ideological direction. It is going to be very interesting to see where that party goes from here to try and claw back credibility and set itself up for success in the future.
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They could be heading for a long slide to join the Liberals as a small party with big ambitions. By the way what happened to the young ones?
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You may be right selby, the only growth we've seen is foodbanks largely uncontested by the population and it's not unreasonable to think that a return to the workhouse is on the cards as we've already seen attempts to force people to work for the dole, having a specialised buildings to do that in is a just another step.
Right wing policy (the worst of it) tends to be mirrored by Australia and the UK, here you are forced to work for your pittance. Newsstart as it's called is 45% of the minimum wage.
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Maybe we needed Labour to get a thrashing in this election to shake them to their senses as a party and to realise that Corbyn was never going to be acceptable to the majority of the electorate.
One man I feel very sorry for this morning (apart from myself) is John McDonnell.
Throughout the campaign, in fact throughout the shitstorm of the last 3 years or more, I think he has talked a great deal of sense and handled himself with dignity. He also clearly has a social conscience and seems to be a very honest and genuine guy.
Corbyn also cares passionately about those who are not as fortunate as others, but he is simply way past his sell-by date and is certainly not a leader for our times.
He should announce his resignation now, but Labour should not dive headlong into a snap leadership election.
As a party they need to truly and thoroughly analyse where they stand and how they can return to being a party which has a broader appeal.
As a Labour voter I'm shell-shocked this morning, but I take two positives from this result.
First, we needed clarity as a nation. A hung Parliament would have been a dreadful outcome.
Second, this terrible mauling for Labour must surely galvanise them into a period of real soul-searching.
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Possibly something to take on board.
https://twitter.com/James_Sp_/status/1205283498770288640?s=19
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The only positive I'm taking from this is that Labour must and will come back stronger... For me Dan Jarvis needs to be instated as Labour Leader as soon as possible. He comes across as a true leader of men and would instil some pride back into the Labour Party.
Hopefully 5 years won't be long enough a period of time for Boris to completely sell of the NHS and some of us might still have some money left...
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Possibly something to take on board.
https://twitter.com/James_Sp_/status/1205283498770288640?s=19
Been saying that for four years now. The party was taken over by a cult. This was the inevitable outcome.
The only way back is if they learn some humility and realise that 100% of what 20% want doesn't mean you win at politics.
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There is a glimmer of hope for Labour for the future.
For all the gains the Tories made across the North, they didn't do it by taking huge numbers of votes from Labour. Labour lost votes to the LDs and Greens and, more than anyone, to the Brexit Party.
The Tories still aren't popular in the North. People haven't voted FOR them, they've voted AGAINST what Labour offered.
The next election will take place in very different circumstances. The BP won't be around. The Tories will own the next 5 years of grinding depressed economic growth and they will have no-one to blame it on.
Labour has to make the right leader choice and reconnect with the North. It needs to be humble and listen. If it does, it can regain everything it lost yesterday and more.
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Couldn’t agree more bst..
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It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
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It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Exactly what I said on another thread Wilts. Dawn Butler?
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Jess Phillips is different class to Corbyn in the way she comes over as a trustworthy candidate.
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She’s the cousin in law to Kevin Philips , didn’t know there was such a thing.
This time next year the only time Jeremy Corbyn will be in the public eye is in Dictionary Corner on Countdown. Good riddance to the horrible little man, he was such a good thing for the Conservatives .
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:rolleyes:
It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
Oh it’s my fault then is it?
Well it looks as though millions voted for it. We are all so so stupid aren’t we.
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See there are protests in London against boris now, maybe general election 2 anyone?
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See there are protests in London against boris now, maybe general election 2 anyone?
But surely, the people have voted.
Don’t we live in a democratic country.
Respect the outcome.
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You would like to think so hound
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
Good to get an accurate perspective from someone experiencing the truth ldr.
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Or it shows a lack of faciilty to be able to get treatment elsewhere
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I would prefer to take the word of an experienced NHS professional who is instrumental in that particular area.
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When I hear from one I may listen too
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Very disrespectful.
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
Absolute and utter bullshit!
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall. Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E. Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him. Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit. Unless you're fudging the figures!
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him! Prioritisation? my arse!
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Bit disrespectful Sydney at least be gracious in defeat, ldr is giving his professional opinion
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Bit disrespectful Sydney at least be gracious in defeat, ldr is giving his professional opinion
Not very professional based on my experiences.
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Is this the same guy telling us an oxygen mask was a drip and that the NHS is not being privatised?
My comment about full emergency departments being full because there is nowhere else for people to go is commonsense you don't need to be an expert to see that.
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
Absolute and utter bullshit!
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall. Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E. Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him. Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit. Unless you're fudging the figures!
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him! Prioritisation? my arse!
Kato, with respect to you and your father, although he was undoubtedly injured and in need of treatment there may well have been people who were treated before him because they were in need of treatment more urgently than him.
The professionals at the hospital make the decisions and inevitably there will be people who are left with an axe to grind.
Had your dad been in a life threatening condition then I feel sure that he would have been rushed through more quickly.
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Cheers hound, as the other person may suspect I'm not clinically based and they are correct to suggest that ae attendance volumes are symptomatic of people not getting help elsewhere, some of that is indeed down to unavailability but a significant proportion is ae being culturally seen as a one stop shop where 111 or a walk in centre would be more suited. NNK I am dismayed at your experience and offer my sympathy you and your family but bear in mind you in those situations would not be seeing the patients been seen and their issues. As I have said before I do not work in Doncaster but my own experiences there with my own mothers illness was very poor, it's never had a good reputation.
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
Absolute and utter bullshit!
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall. Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E. Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him. Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit. Unless you're fudging the figures!
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him! Prioritisation? my arse!
Kato, with respect to you and your father, although he was undoubtedly injured and in need of treatment there may well have been people who were treated before him because they were in need of treatment more urgently than him.
The professionals at the hospital make the decisions and inevitably there will be people who are left with an axe to grind.
Had your dad been in a life threatening condition then I feel sure that he would have been rushed through more quickly.
Would that that were true Hound. But there was no prioritisation, Dad was seen in rotation once those in front of him were seen. There were then others behind him waiting their turn And this, in spite of the paramedics trying to urge staff to see him. (They couldn't leave to attend to others until Dad was admitted).
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Is this the same guy telling us an oxygen mask was a drip and that the NHS is not being privatised?
My comment about full emergency departments being full because there is nowhere else for people to go is commonsense you don't need to be an expert to see that.
Actually this is incorrect, theres a number out of hours care places in Doncaster, I've used them with family a number of times, little wait and far better than a&e when it's not serious.
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
Absolute and utter bullshit!
My father, 97 years old had a serious fall. Taken by paramedics/ambulance to DRI A&E. Wheeled into a cold anteroom, (ambulance entrance to the hospital), where the paramedics stood with him waiting for over an hour before he was finally admitted due to the number of people on trollies in front of him. Then left on a trolley waiting for a doctor to do the preliminary examination for ages before finally admitting him. No prioritisation whatsoever! Just taking his turn in the queue!
The treatment Dad got after that was first class and I've no complaints whatsoever, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is utter bullshit. Unless you're fudging the figures!
Cant fault the paramedics, can't fault the treatment Dad got in hospital, but to suggest that those who need urgent treatment get it is so far from reality as to be absurd. And that's only one example - I've seen very young children, blood running down their faces waiting their turn. My Farther-in-Law clearly having a heart attack left waiting in a cubicle and me having to chase doctors to help him! Prioritisation? my arse!
Kato, with respect to you and your father, although he was undoubtedly injured and in need of treatment there may well have been people who were treated before him because they were in need of treatment more urgently than him.
The professionals at the hospital make the decisions and inevitably there will be people who are left with an axe to grind.
Had your dad been in a life threatening condition then I feel sure that he would have been rushed through more quickly.
Would that that were true Hound. But there was no prioritisation, Dad was seen in rotation once those in front of him were seen. There were then others behind him waiting their turn And this, in spite of the paramedics trying to urge staff to see him. (They couldn't leave to attend to others until Dad was admitted).
Fair enough Kato, obviously i wasn’t there and don’t doubt your word on this.
However, I guess there will be plenty of people who have happier tales to tell.
Maybe those luckier ones just don’t tell about it.
As ldr says though, DRI doesn’t have a great reputation generally.
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Is this the same guy telling us an oxygen mask was a drip and that the NHS is not being privatised?
My comment about full emergency departments being full because there is nowhere else for people to go is commonsense you don't need to be an expert to see that.
Actually this is incorrect, theres a number out of hours care places in Doncaster, I've used them with family a number of times, little wait and far better than a&e when it's not serious.
Very true bfyp, I have also made use of them.
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Cheers hound, as the other person may suspect I'm not clinically based and they are correct to suggest that ae attendance volumes are symptomatic of people not getting help elsewhere, some of that is indeed down to unavailability but a significant proportion is ae being culturally seen as a one stop shop where 111 or a walk in centre would be more suited. NNK I am dismayed at your experience and offer my sympathy you and your family but bear in mind you in those situations would not be seeing the patients been seen and their issues. As I have said before I do not work in Doncaster but my own experiences there with my own mothers illness was very poor, it's never had a good reputation.
Thank you Ldr. DRI used to be very good indeed. In fact, once you can get 'into the system' the quality of service and support is nothing short of excellent.
I can write chapter and verse of trying to overcome that fist hurdle, with both my Father and my Mother, and I've attempted to complain on several occasions with no success whatsoever!
The NHS is seriously under funded and under staffed. What it delivers, (when it finally delivers it), is nothing short of first class. If it is ever privatised then it will be much the worse for it!
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
Ok Ldr. But surely you accept the rate of hitting the target as a measure of overall relative performance over time?
As in, if it consistently gets worse over time, that's an indicator of a systemic and growing problem?
Now, that may be because more people are getting unwell or hurt year on year. It may be because more people are going to A&E year on year with trivial complaints. It may be because the service is not being properly managed. Or it may be because the service is not being properly funded.
See me? As an outsider looking in at the big picture, I see target performance getting worse in line with funding being capped over and extended period of time and I hear Occam's Razor being sharpened.
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:rolleyes:It was always going to be difficult for Labour going into an election without Brexit being resolved. The party is dominated by people who want to remain in the EU which alienated a lot of the leave voters in the north. As several on them on here have been saying for a while.
Would Labour have done as badly if Johnson had been allowed to get his WA through first - and all the problems that will come with it - or ammended it for a 2nd referendum - we shall never know but I don't think so.
Personally I think the next Labour leader should be female. It's embarrassing that the Tory's have had two female leaders and the party of equality have yet to have had one.
Party of equality!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why tens of thousands of Labour voters voted Conservative last night.
It’s a myth. I don’t believe the Labour Party have done much at all for people they portray to represent for a very long time.
They trusted Boris with the country above their own Labour candidates.
Party of the people. 1970’s rhetoric. That’s why they got hammered as they had a leader and a shadow chancellor who were from a bygone era. The public saw that and snubbed them big time.
Believe me Brexit just exacerbated their demise.
We have just had the worst waiting A&E waiting times ever - every hospital in the country failed to meet its target. Thanks for that Campsall - thats what you voted for.
As someone who is involved in the monitoring of nhs targets, the 4 hour a and e is meaningless. Those who need urgent treatment get it. The masses who descend on ae departments this time of year with minor ailments tend not to anytime fast. It's the wrong place for them, they get seen but not prioritised over needier patients. Its arbitrary b*llocks
Ok Ldr. But surely you accept the rate of hitting the target as a measure of overall relative performance over time?
As in, if it consistently gets worse over time, that's an indicator of a systemic and growing problem?
Now, that may be because more people are getting unwell or hurt year on year. It may be because more people are going to A&E year on year with trivial complaints. It may be because the service is not being properly managed. Or it may be because the service is not being properly funded.
See me? As an outsider looking in at the big picture, I see target performance getting worse in line with funding being capped over and extended period of time and I hear Occam's Razor being sharpened.
I suspect more people are going to A&E due to the difficulty, (time wise), of getting an appointment with a local GP - around 2 weeks at my local surgery unless I phone between 08:30 and 9:00 and ask for an emergency appointment, (even then I have to await a call back to assess if it really is an emergency), and there are only a limited amount of those appointments anyway. Again a result of underfunding of the NHS in total.
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It's interesting Kato the UK is about 7th in the world by gdp ahd Australia a good deal lower
I can ring my doctor make an appt and see him the same day, no charge.
Australia is way ahead of the UK average of personal wealth, it will take someone smarter than me to tell me why.
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To contribute to the public / private debate NNK it's worth noting that most (not all) GPs, whilst delivering NHS services are private businesses, that's just a point for information.
Front line services in the NHS are definitely underfunded, the NHS has that many organisations under its banner though that it is quite capable of mass wastage in the system. Imho the whole system of organisations in the background needs streamlining, it's not as simple throw more money at it whilst the wastage is there (though it wouldn't hurt).
Also to throw it out there, should the NHS be offering all the services it does? You could make the argument that things like IVF, cosmetic plastics etc are lifestyle, not health and you could make the counter argument that those services promote mental health. The point being how much do the public want to put in to the NHS. Thinking practically if it's the former then stripping away some of the non essential services would mean more resources for essential ones. If it's the latter then we must accept that we probs need to tax more to fund it.
BST sorry when the point scoring fanatic joins in I tune out. I will be in the lakeside on boxing day if people want an NHS chat over a pint
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I can also get a same day appointment with my local GP practice free of charge.
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To contribute to the public / private debate NNK it's worth noting that most (not all) GPs, whilst delivering NHS services are private businesses, that's just a point for information.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Front line services in the NHS are definitely underfunded, the NHS has that many organisations under its banner though that it is quite capable of mass wastage in the system. Imho the whole system of organisations in the background needs streamlining, it's not as simple throw more money at it whilst the wastage is there (though it wouldn't hurt).
I know a little bit about mass wastage. My Daughter-in-Law is a director of a company that supplies IT services/applications to the NHS. She/they have to negotiate separately with the various 'Trusts' rather than one centralised body. A very expensive and wasteful process that leads to a degree of incompatibility as some trusts use them whilst other trusts choose something else or don't bother! I am sure there are other areas and these really should be addressed. The system, as it is today, is wide open to privatisation - with the attendant risks that that presents.
Also to throw it out there, should the NHS be offering all the services it does? You could make the argument that things like IVF, cosmetic plastics etc are lifestyle, not health and you could make the counter argument that those services promote mental health. The point being how much do the public want to put in to the NHS. Thinking practically if it's the former then stripping away some of the non essential services would mean more resources for essential ones. If it's the latter then we must accept that we probs need to tax more to fund it.
A difficult one this. There are indeed people who look to cosmetic surgery etc due to the stress their condition presents, whilst there most certainly are others who do this through vanity. I'm not sure how this could easily be addressed.
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Unless they were for road trauma or those that cannot have children via normal practice, not sure I'd call that lifestyle but there you go.
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The definition of cosmetic is interesting. I've had the procedure commonly called a nose job, but goes by the name of septorhinoplasty.
Ironically my private healthcare didnt cover it but the nhs did. Most see it as a cosmetic procedure but they affects of it on my life were huge. Yes the OP itself had some adverse effects (ironically aesthetically) l. But after years of struggles I can breathe properly, my asthma hugely improved due to that and my taste changed dramatically. Not everything that's portrayed as cosmetic is just that.
And to add, the OP and recovery was bloody horrible.
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Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html
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I had a problem with my nose. I couldn't sneeze. The NHS wouldn't cover it so I had to go private. Apparently the nurse said I needed to be in BUPA to get a blow job.
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Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html
it will be interesting to hear what labour voters on hear think of that as it’s from the independent, people keep saying about the right wing papers ect. But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail, to move forward labour need to accept that the problem lies only within the Labour Party, the papers have been the same for years and labour have still got into power
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Anything to support what you said bp?
Not sure why anyone would go near the mail its staunchly right wing and the most untrustworthy newspaper published, but ppl do it's got the second highest readerships in the UK, goes to show what you get if you bracket bullshit with tits and sport.
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Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html
it will be interesting to hear what labour voters on hear think of that as it’s from the independent, people keep saying about the right wing papers ect. But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail, to move forward labour need to accept that the problem lies only within the Labour Party, the papers have been the same for years and labour have still got into power
I couldn't agree more Bpool.
Back in 2015 when Corbyn became leader, I said he would lose and the Left would blame in on the media.
It's happening to some extent. And it's self-indulgent. We KNEW what the media would be like. They are not going to vanish. They are a given. Labour has to beat that, not complain when they lose.
Maybe now, some on the Left will realise why Blair and Alastair Campbell existed.
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Anything to support what you said bp?
Not sure why anyone would go near the mail its staunchly right wing and the most untrustworthy newspaper published, but ppl do it's got the second highest readerships in the UK, goes to show what you get if you bracket bullshit with tits and sport.
What do you mean support what I said?
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sorry I just thought that because my reply was about the mail you would have made the connection
''But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail''
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Do you think they do? Or are you just looking to argue as normal
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or course i'm interested it's why i asked, why do those who have difficulty supporting what they write mostly answer a question with a question, another question for you.
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Interesting (though by no means unique) take on why Labour did badly in its heartlands from a now former MP.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/general-election-results-2019-jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-a9246311.html
it will be interesting to hear what labour voters on hear think of that as it’s from the independent, people keep saying about the right wing papers ect. But most in labour heartlands won’t go near the mail, to move forward labour need to accept that the problem lies only within the Labour Party, the papers have been the same for years and labour have still got into power
I couldn't agree more Bpool.
Back in 2015 when Corbyn became leader, I said he would lose and the Left would blame in on the media.
It's happening to some extent. And it's self-indulgent. We KNEW what the media would be like. They are not going to vanish. They are a given. Labour has to beat that, not complain when they lose.
Maybe now, some on the Left will realise why Blair and Alastair Campbell existed.
I do wonder if it's the press guiding the readers or is it the readers that guide the press. It's like the old adage that the sun has a big say, perhaps the sun just follows where it thinks most people.are heading?
I do agree that the more mainstream written press favours the tories, there are though left wing papers, why are they not as influential?
I also fundamentally disagree the BBC is biased, the same bbc that has constantly slaughtered all parties.
What is the answer though? I genuinely dont know that. Should all channels be split, should channel 4 lose the left wing bias for example? It's tough to know. Certainly labour still hasnt figured out what to do. I do think there is a bit of sway from social media, ie because they do well on social media labour think they've cracked it, when in reality most of the electorate isnt bothered and actually is quieter.
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you're correct about the majority of msm being right wing especially the yellow press, draws them in with tits and sport then sells them the the message to hate people on the dole and all your problems lead back to immigrants etc, drip drip drip.
Why do they influence people? maybe the readers don't question what they read enough or they are happy to accept the suggestions.
The sun has approx equal readership with the mail over a month, both owned by very rich people and the Sun belongs to murdoch and has acted appallingly, people have short memories, how can they forget what they did in the Milly Dowler scandal.
Most of the press is owned by extremely rich people with a barrow to push.
The media is not totally to blame for labours problems but it shouldn't be discounted either.
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Corbyn claims he may have lost the Election but he won the Political Argument, I wholeheartedly agree! stay at the helm Jeremy call for another Election,I guarantee your voice will be heard (around your 75th Birthday) and you will get a second chance! And remember with his silver spoon upbringing there are many years left in the old Dog yet!✊️✊️✊️
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don't choke on your gloat sprot :)
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''British media 'most right-wing' in Europe, YouGov survey finds
Readers also ranked the British press as the 'most biased' in the countries surveyed''
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/british-media-is-the-most-right-wing-in-europe-yougov-finds-a6859266.html
this you Jo Public's view on your own media.
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you're correct about the majority of msm being right wing especially the yellow press, draws them in with tits and sport then sells them the the message to hate people on the dole and all your problems lead back to immigrants etc, drip drip drip.
Why do they influence people? maybe the readers don't question what they read enough or they are happy to accept the suggestions.
The sun has approx equal readership with the mail over a month, both owned by very rich people and the Sun belongs to murdoch and has acted appallingly, people have short memories, how can they forget what they did in the Milly Dowler scandal.
Most of the press is owned by extremely rich people with a barrow to push.
The media is not totally to blame for labours problems but it shouldn't be discounted either.
So I am assuming the the very left wing papers that you have consistently posted links from over the past weeks are owned by people who are not wealthy?
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Very left wing papers - which are those please hound?
I will start of with The Morning Star - and I am afraid my list ends with The Morning Star.
I would never describe newspapers such as The Mirror, The Guardian or The Independent as very left anything. Left of centre certainly but no way could any of these be far left. They all disliked Corbyn, none of them supported him to be leader, all of them supported Owen Smith in his challenge against him and they have all been very critical of his lack of support for remain - ie he wasn't 'centerist' enough.
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Come on wilts, even Labours front benchers didn’t want Corbyn as leader.
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I posted a month or so ago Corbyn's future was setting out his allotment.
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When I hear from one I may listen too
You need to start listening to a great deal of things.
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I posted a month or so ago Corbyn's future was setting out his allotment.
I could say if DR/DM listened to you we would be winning more games, but I wouldn't say that :)
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I can also get a same day appointment with my local GP practice free of charge.
You're bloody lucky then Hound. I live in the extremely well heeled Cotswolds. The absolute minimum notice to get even an emergency appointment is a week. Can I come live with you?
As for the good Jeremy Corbyn I think he will go down in history. He has achieved something remarkable. Unique in fact. His shilly shallying about Brexit lost him the Labour heartlands who want Brexit and lost him the metropolitan intelligentsia who don't. He could only ever satisfy one, but to lose both is downright astounding. The bloke is unintelligent (evidenced by his almost equally remarkable absence of academic achievement) and he has no grasp of history at all. It is now not far short of 50 years since the last Labour leader apart from Tony Blair won a general election. The only succesful Labour leader in nearly half a century really ought to be something of a model. Every other bugger who's tried has failed. What did Tony do different? The answer is obvious of course. And not to the liking of the left. Tony Blair may have only delivered a small part of the socialist dream, but this perpetual harking after obsolete socialism continues to deliver absolutely nothing at all. Unless you count gifting government to the Tory party an achievement.
The working classes have been gamed by the Tory right. Persuaded to vote against their interests in a Tory inflicted referendum designed to resolve their own long standing internal schism. Persuaded to vote against their interests again in order to honour outcome of said referendum with neither discernable benefit nor agreed outcome. Northern and nationalist constituencies have been neglected by both main parties in pursuit of middle class and metropolitan votes. The result is an alienated white working class looking to nationalist and nativist solutions. The winners of that are the Tories and SNP and NI Nationalists. Simples. The audacity and irony of Boris visiting Blair's old constituency as a Tory PM. The years of Thatcherism and deindustrialisation, and deunionisation and Tory post crash austerity forgotten in support of empty slogans and misplaced patriotism.
And Corbyn has allowed all of it to happen. The man should be pilloried.
BobG
PS In the 40 years since Mrs Thatcher was elected in 1979, the Conservatives have been in power for 29 of them. That's 72.5% of the last 40 years. Who, do you suppose, is responsible for the ills of the nation today? Can they be proud of what they have created?