Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on December 19, 2019, 12:30:00 am
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https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/end-of-neoliberalism-unfettered-markets-fail-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2019-11
That's a Nobel Prize winning economist saying baldly that the Neoliberal economic era has run into the rocks. Which we all know anyway. 40 years of slower growth and what growth there is, being creamed off by the richest. It's the understandable reason for so much anger with "the elite". It's just that Johnson and Farage have managed to con people that "the elite" they should be upset with are celebrity lefties, so that folk turn their ire on them and leave the rich f**kers to carry on their accumulation of wealth.
On one level, you have to admire the barefaced balls of it.
What's needed if we're really going to address this though, is for Labour to work up a credible and dynamic alternative economic policy, delivered by a credible and dynamic leader.
Should be easy enough.
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Billy, labours biggest problem is that they have no credible and dynamic members of the party on the front bench to enact anything like that, they are all London centrist nodding donkeys.
It might hurt them, but if they don't listen to such as Tony Blair and his forecasts as to where they are currently heading, and act now to rid the party of the nutters that are the face of Labour on the TV (the luvies) and the extreme members of momentum, who should be in the Communist Party, they are heading to be a party in the next twenty years no more significant than the Liberals.
Most people do not see themselves as working class anymore, nor do they want to be seen to be working class anymore, and they do not, like my generation mix with older people at work or in their leisure time, who largely set the tone of the way you thought about things.
Aspirations have changed, youngsters now live for the day, want to look like celebrities, and live their lives accordingly, and from a young age are shovelled everything their heart desires, borrowing money to do so just a fact of life.
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I agree with most if not all of that Selby. Labour need to get back to basics and provide people in parliament that are credible to more than just a fraction of the electorate.
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So busy rubbishing labour Selby you've missed the irony, you're arguing to something that wasn't in question.
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Yeh Sydney, you are so clever you and your like have had your heads stuck up your backside so far, you have ended up insignificant now, and don't realise it is you that has been left behind, Three and a half years of printing diatribe on here has done you the world of good buddy.
And your eyes are still closed tight shut, with brain disengaged.
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So busy getting your gloat in you missed the point, now you get abusive cos you're wrong, nice one selby
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Now there is a surprise, I get back from a deal and bingo a fish on the hook, it isn't gloating Sydney, it is the despair that you can't get it in your mind that people are moving away from your take on your vision of how the country should be run.
People are fed up of being thrust upon by career so called politicians straight out of university, who have never had a meaningful job in their lives preaching to them what is wrong with the world, while publishing manifestos that are only fit to put on a nail at the back of the toilet door.
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People show a lot about themselves when they get angry same as when they're drunk
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I drink very moderately for socialising, and I am not at all angry, in fact, I find the denial on your part very funny if a little sad really.
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Whatever selby
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https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/end-of-neoliberalism-unfettered-markets-fail-by-joseph-e-stiglitz-2019-11
That's a Nobel Prize winning economist saying baldly that the Neoliberal economic era has run into the rocks. Which we all know anyway. 40 years of slower growth and what growth there is, being creamed off by the richest. It's the understandable reason for so much anger with "the elite". It's just that Johnson and Farage have managed to con people that "the elite" they should be upset with are celebrity lefties, so that folk turn their ire on them and leave the rich f**kers to carry on their accumulation of wealth.
On one level, you have to admire the barefaced balls of it.
What's needed if we're really going to address this though, is for Labour to work up a credible and dynamic alternative economic policy, delivered by a credible and dynamic leader.
Should be easy enough.
The one important word there Billy is 'delivered'.
How is this going to be delivered'? The media are profoundly anti-Labour and will probably become more so under Johnson. He already has plans to scrap the BBC and Channel 4 because they are not complient enough.
The Tories enrich the tax exile elite who run the media and they do their bit in return by using their outlets as propaganda for them.
They wont give whoever the next leader is a fair hearing - whatever the message - if the party looks like becoming popular in the country they will be smeared like Corbyn - look at the replies in this thread.
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Wilts.
To be frank, I was pointing out that the media issue would loom large against Corbyn. That was a given. Predictable and predicted.
I was told on here (not by you) that the MSM were less important than they used to be, and that social media and new media would tip the balance.
That prediction aged well...
I find the Left complaining now about the MSM, frankly, risible. It's right if course that the media have an unfair effect, but complaining about that is pointless. It's like Japan complaining that it wasn't fair that the Americans had the atomic bomb. Fairness is irrelevant. The existence of the bomb was a fact that had to be taken into account when formulating policy. Similarly, the existence of an aggressive media environment is a fact that Labour MUST take into account. That requires Labour to have to perform far better than the Tories. To have a leader who is media savvy and doesn't dig his own bear traps.
And that was always my main criticism of Corbyn. Right from Day One he gave the MSM ammunition because the compromises he'd have had to make to transcend that were impossible for him.
Early in his reign as Leader, there was the ridiculous shenanigans about whether he would kneel before the Queen. Corbyn tried the blank the issue. That was utterly stupid as it allowed the media to portray him as a revolutionary, and worse...one who wouldn't admit it. Terrible, terrible optics. He should have come out immediately and said "Of COURSE I will kneel. It's the process that has always happened and I'm not interested in making pointless gestures. The Queen is our head of state and I respect that."
Imagine the change in his public image!
But of course, he couldn't do that. Because he wouldn't have been able to look Milne and McCluskey in the eye.
Labour's next leader has GOT to understand this lesson.
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Nah needs to be more than that Billy. It cant just be the leader it has to be the whole party and the message.
There was too much division behind Corbyn - Johnson/Cummings recognised that and threw the people he disagreed with out of the party.
And that wasn't Corbyn's fault - the people who refused to support Corbyn and were constantly attacking him must also take their share of the blame for his defeat - because if they don't the same will happen to the next leader.
Back onto your original point - and a little on this - have you see this:
https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/status/1199345085239816192
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So. Are you saying that if the Labour party had United as one behind Corbyn, he'd have led them to victory?
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So. Are you saying that if the Labour party had United as one behind Corbyn, he'd have led them to victory?
Not trying to answer for Wilts, but for my part I suspect they wouldn't have lost so heavily.
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I have watched most of this mornings debate in between other things, Labour have just lost an election very badly, does it look like they have changed one iota, not on your nelly, talk about having their head in the sand, still the same old rhetoric, which is starting to come over as nasty and smacking of striking out in anger.
The quicker some of this lot are dumped by the party the better for British politics and the proud party they purport to support. They are a million miles away from the party in the past.
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Something I don't get about you Selby.
You're very passionate about what you DON'T like.
What actually DO you want? What specific things could Labour offer that would impress you?
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BST I would say they need to accept Brexit for one and move on past that. I also think they need a leader who is less focused on being divisive, someone like Kier Starmer. He has that authoritative professional style that breeds confidence in voters, not someone shouty like Rayner or Long Bailey, that will turn voters off.
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Yeah bfyp, what about some one that can't be trusted even in his own home, can't be trusted with the truth, people's personal safety, their heritage, religion altough it couldn't be anyone from working stock so it norrows it down a bit, maybe labour could get some ideas from the experts the conservatives on how to pick a leader, what do you think?
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Yeah bfyp, what about some one that can't be trusted even in his own home, can't be trusted with the truth, people's personal safety, their heritage, religion altough it couldn't be anyone from working stock so it norrows it down a bit, maybe labour could get some ideas from the experts the conservatives on how to pick a leader, what do you think?
Yet another post looking for the negatives elsewhere rather than the negatives in the Labour Party and what should be done to correct their failings.
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BST I would say they need to accept Brexit for one and move on past that. I also think they need a leader who is less focused on being divisive, someone like Kier Starmer. He has that authoritative professional style that breeds confidence in voters, not someone shouty like Rayner or Long Bailey, that will turn voters off.
BFYP, I suggested a few months ago that in my opinion the Labour Party would be far better served with Starmer at the helm.
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Syd, they could do worse than ask the Conservatives, after all they have just picked a leader who has run rings around the other parties, stood on their neck and brought the black heads out.
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Correct Selby but if johnson is the price you have to pay to win an election the price is too high for me. I move in circles where we have to be squeaky clean, much like the UK labour party because the press/msm are pretty much the same as the UK, dominated by murdoch and the right wing. I've never been a member of a political party and I couldn't support a party that had a leader such as johnson, I'm no saint but I'm not corrupt.
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It was Brexit, not leftwing policies that lost Labour the election
(warning - contains stats)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election
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It was Brexit, not leftwing policies that lost Labour the election
(warning - contains stats)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election
Getting rid of Brother Jeremy is the biggest mistake the left has ever made, let's start a 'keep Corbyn as leader Poll!
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I have to say I think the importance of choosing the right leader, is underestimated. In this media age the leader is the face of the party, the spokesperson for the party, the director of the party, the publics first link to the party. It's got to be someone competent, trustworthy and very articulate.
The left side of politics doesn't win very often in this country. That has to be recognised. Fighting on a left wing platform never wins. That has to be recognised too. The Labour Party hasn't been in power for a longtime now and that too is a big problem. The importance of actually winning should be rising higher up the agenda with every year out of government.
Which all leaves this Labour Party in a very desperate place, with Corbyn lingering on, claiming he won the argument, Unite closing its grip, momentum a key voting block, McDonnell manoeuvring to push the continuity Corbyn candidate firmly in to place. I don't hold much hope to be honest.
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It was Brexit, not leftwing policies that lost Labour the election
(warning - contains stats)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election
I'm afraid that, for all her fine work in collating statistics, Ell Smith isn't so hot in drawing conclusions.
The premise running right through that piece is that Labour did as much as it could to hold onto Remain supporters and lost because it lost Leave supporters. She concludes this because Labour's lead over the Tories among Remain supporters was the same that it was in 2017.
But that entirely misses the massive difference between 2017 and 19. In 17, it was still possible to appeal to both Remain and Leave voters, and Corbyn did that we'll. In the atmosphere of 2019, that simply wasn't possible. You had to be clear where you stood in Brexit, and by doing so, you were inevitably going to lose votes on one side or the other. THAT was the electoral issue that Labour misjudged. If they were going to lose Leave votes, it's wasn't good enough to hold the line with Remain supporters. They had to sweep the board with Remain supporters. Instead, the shambolic performance in the first half of 2019 lost Labour the support of millions of those voters, and not enough came back.
The other massive thing she brushes over is the millstone that was Corbyn's unpopularity. And that's unforgivable because, even if she didn't get that in the doorstep like those of us canvassing got, she would have seen the historically bad figures in the polling data that she collated.
As RD says, it is absolutely essential that Labour chooses a leader who can connect with the electorate. If not, as 2019 shows, it doesn't matter if you have all the right and popular economic policies.
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Lisa Nandy would be my choice, she is a clever debater,has been a quick witted and clear speaker on programmes such as question time, and stood her corner and argued her points very well, also should appeal to the younger membership, and has the looks to front publicity.
More importantly she seams to have a clear pathway and vision of the direction the party should take.
Her problems are not being part of the London bubble, has a northern accent, and even before the election clashed with the far left on policy, the policy that has just failed spectacularly, and whether like minded MP's in the party have the balls to back her to take on Labours current leadership, and momentum within the party that are too extreme for popular British politics.
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So what policies of her's do you like Selby?
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I'm fully aware the Labour Party have never had a women lead the party but I say so what .
In all honesty I do not see a women who can get anywhere near the capabilities of Keir Starmer and that's nothing to do with gender its a simple fact .
The party needs a person who will hold Johnson to account and there's nobody better than Starmer who tied the tories in knots over Brexit time and time again .
With such a majority we need the best man at the crease .
Please please will the left just go away , what does it take for you people to understand your policies are for the fairies and the electorate don't ever want a left wing government .
The centre is where it's at , three election victories for Tony Blair , how hard is that to understand .
Were Tony Blair and New Labour the party that ticked every box ? , absolutely not but they are far more desirable than any Tory government , all day long .
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My take Tyke.
I DO think the country would vote for the Labour party's left wing economic and social policies. They are highly popular in polls.
What they will never vote for is a party that has foreign policies which, rightly or wrongly, give the impression that the party doesn't support Britain first and foremost. The Skripal incident was the perfect example. We had an attack on our soil by a hostile state. Our own security services were telling us that's what had happened. Corbyn blanked that for days and suggested that we should send samples of the nerve agent off to Russia for them to analyse.
Meanwhile, the Left on social media went into overdrive, darkly hinting it was a false flag job. There were a couple pushing the same line in here.
It's THAT approach that turns people off to the left. No Labour party will EVER win a majority peddling that line.
I'm coming round to thinking that Starmer is probably the best placed one to combine that domestic radial approach with a harder nosed approach to foreign policy.
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My take Tyke.
I DO think the country would vote for the Labour party's left wing economic and social policies. They are highly popular in polls.
What they will never vote for is a party that has foreign policies which, rightly or wrongly, give the impression that the party doesn't support Britain first and foremost. The Skripal incident was the perfect example. We had an attack on our soil by a hostile state. Our own security services were telling us that's what had happened. Corbyn blanked that for days and suggested that we should send samples of the nerve agent off to Russia for them to analyse.
Meanwhile, the Left on social media went into overdrive, darkly hinting it was a false flag job. There were a couple pushing the same line in here.
It's THAT approach that turns people off to the left. No Labour party will EVER win a majority peddling that line.
I'm coming round to thinking that Starmer is probably the best placed one to combine that domestic radial approach with a harder nosed approach to foreign policy.
BST
It's a very good point you make , the UK today is a very nationalistic country and proud of its military , now I'm not someone who thinks our military foreign policy isn't without criticism but that's where we are as a nation , electorally it might be a good idea to endorse that and perhaps not wear a white poppy if you want to be a Labour PM , some of our history is perhaps better to leave unsaid .
I'm not against socially progressive policies either , far from it we are the Labour Party after all .
The left's problem is that they can't help themselves from attacking the wealth and go down the class war road .
It's not a great look .
I know what the Tories are , you don't have to tell me as an ex miner who fought the fight and lost .
However the politics of yesterday aren't the politics of today , a Labour Party protest movement is about as much use as tyts on a fish .
We have to be in government to improve working class lives .
A leader who the electorate trust , credible policies and a vision that provides hope , hope that they will make this country a better place .
Johnson will fail , of that I have no doubt , a campaign of lies and hot air that many have fallen for .
I'm reminded of the Tory campaign of 1992 when they lied about the economy and it bit them severely on the ass and were trounced by Blair in 97 .
Get Starmer in , move to the centre and the common sense ground , is it everything I desire no it isn't but for God's sake it's better than Johnson and his right wing henchmen running this country .
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David Lammy says he is considering standing as leader, He would be the biggest Christmas gift the Tories have ever had if he is elected.
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A good post tyke.
I'd agree that Starmer is probably the best option but unfortunately Momentum will continue to call the shots and they and McCluskey are getting behind Rebecca Long-Bailey, who is basically Corbyn with a northern accent and a skirt
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My take Tyke.
I DO think the country would vote for the Labour party's left wing economic and social policies. They are highly popular in polls.
What they will never vote for is a party that has foreign policies which, rightly or wrongly, give the impression that the party doesn't support Britain first and foremost. The Skripal incident was the perfect example. We had an attack on our soil by a hostile state. Our own security services were telling us that's what had happened. Corbyn blanked that for days and suggested that we should send samples of the nerve agent off to Russia for them to analyse.
Meanwhile, the Left on social media went into overdrive, darkly hinting it was a false flag job. There were a couple pushing the same line in here.
It's THAT approach that turns people off to the left. No Labour party will EVER win a majority peddling that line.
I'm coming round to thinking that Starmer is probably the best placed one to combine that domestic radial approach with a harder nosed approach to foreign policy.
Are you referring to me?
I live near(ish) to Salisbury. I know where all the locations are and I know there is no way the poisoning incident happened as it is supposed to have done as reported by the media - as I have said on here several times.
How and why did the two poisoners walk nearly two miles from the Skirpals house with an open bottle of novichock to dump it in a charity collection bin in the centre of Salisbury - whilst re-sealing it in the celaphane and packet to make it look as though it had never been opened? Which is how and where Charlie Rowley found it.
Why did the police officer come down ill straight away when he touched the door handle - but it took 4 hours for the poison to affect the Skripals?
There is only one conclusion I can come too - there was more than one poisoning team and more than one bottle of novichok - which has not been found.
The government want you to believe it is all solved and as they say - so you wont ask questions as to why a Russian defector and target was placed in the middle of a residential community and how the police and MI6 failed to protect him and the local community.
Dont' ask questions or you are a left wing traitor - then they wont spot the mistakes we made or the danger we put you in.
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Lisa Nandy would be my choice, she is a clever debater,has been a quick witted and clear speaker on programmes such as question time, and stood her corner and argued her points very well, also should appeal to the younger membership, and has the looks to front publicity.
More importantly she seams to have a clear pathway and vision of the direction the party should take.
Her problems are not being part of the London bubble, has a northern accent, and even before the election clashed with the far left on policy, the policy that has just failed spectacularly, and whether like minded MP's in the party have the balls to back her to take on Labours current leadership, and momentum within the party that are too extreme for popular British politics.
Nope. Sorry. Nandy might be a rising star but she looks and sounds likes she's barely out of the sixth form.
Need a bigger hitter.
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A good post tyke.
I'd agree that Starmer is probably the best option but unfortunately Momentum will continue to call the shots and they and McCluskey are getting behind Rebecca Long-Bailey, who is basically Corbyn with a northern accent and a skirt
Haven't these Momentum idiots done enough damage and their vanity project .
Don't they realise they condemn the working class to yet more years of Tory rule .
Time to do what Kinnock did in the 80's with Militant Tendency and throw them out of the party .
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Can't do that Tyke. They ARE the party now.
It's down to debate and convincing people. Which is difficult because the Left is always correct.
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Don’t worry the Milliband enquiry team will get to the bottom of it!
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Having said that about Momentum and Long-Bailey etc it seems to be turning out that it was indeed Brexit and us coffin dodgers who decided the outcome and Labours policies were attractive to almost everyone else.
So when the ramifications of Brexit come home to roost and once the honeymoon period is over for Johnson's mob; and people recognise him as an incompetent chancer, then there's a chance Labour, with a charismatic leader,could win the next election, even with their current set up; and even with the proposed boundary changes.
Just hope I'm still around to see it!
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Can't do that Tyke. They ARE the party now.
It's down to debate and convincing people. Which is difficult because the Left is always correct.
Aye until the country votes on their policies Billy and they get walloped , Michael Foot 83 - Corbyn 2019 , you'd think the penny would have dropped by now .
I'm a Labour man and socially progressive policies are fine but here's the thing and something Blair worked out in the 90's .
Those in society who are at the bottom or who are struggling where left wing policy makers aim are helpless without middle class votes .
Middle England aren't going to vote for those who are struggling in life , they'll vote Labour if taxes are cut and the train journey to work each morning isn't blighted by strikes .
This is society today , very few care about those on the breadline , on minimum wages , zero hours contracts or stuck in the gig economy , selfish beat solidarity decades ago , it is what it is .
You can't help the least well off in society by sitting on the opposition benches with significantly less MP's after each election .
If the left and Momentum want to do the working class a favour I'd suggest they go and form a Socialist Party outside of the Labour movement where they can play out their fantasy politics for as long as they want and stop taking the rest of us down who have to endure decades of Tory governments .
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All very well and good Tyke - but as I pointed out in a previous post Labour's policies (other than Brexit) were popular with the public.
And as other people have pointed out - it was the middle class who provided a lot of the vote for Labour in the GE, the working class voted Brexit & Tory.
Labour increased their vote share in Canterbury and won Putney - and lost Bassetlaw, Don Valley and Scunthorpe. That wasn't due to middle class voters.
In your world who did Middle England vote for then? Lib Dem?
The Labour Party needs policies and people for the challenges of the 2020's not 1983 or 1997. What it doesn't need are arrogant pillocks like you saying who can or can't be in it.
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All very well and good Tyke - but as I pointed out in a previous post Labour's policies (other than Brexit) were popular with the public.
And as other people have pointed out - it was the middle class who provided a lot of the vote for Labour in the GE, the working class voted Brexit & Tory.
Labour increased their vote share in Canterbury and won Putney - and lost Bassetlaw, Don Valley and Scunthorpe. That wasn't due to middle class voters.
In your world who did Middle England vote for then? Lib Dem?
The Labour Party needs policies and people for the challenges of the 2020's not 1983 or 1997. What it doesn't need are arrogant pillocks like you saying who can or can't be in it.
Just explain to me how Labour's policies were popular with the electorate when they were absolutely hammered at the ballot box ? .
Don't you think the electorate worked it out that free stuff and nationalisation on cost alone are fairytale policies .
For god sake wilts an increase in vote share in Canterbury and Putney !!!! , we were hammered in the heartlands , the worst election result since 1935 on the back of a serial liar as PM with 9 years of austerity behind them .
How clear do you want it ?
The middle class probably voted for anybody but Labour I'd imagine given the toxicity of the party .
I don't decide who the Labour Party has amongst it's membership or so called support groups such as Momentum , the electorate decides on their worth and popularity and clearly they aren't highly regarded so it would be a good idea to expell or send them on a fact finding mission to Venezuela and see how socialism actually turns out in this day and age and reality if Labour wants to see government in five years time .
There's no appetite for left wing governments in this country , if there was Foot or Corbyn would have beaten Thatcher and Johnson wouldn't they , they were both routed .
You know when you start with the personal abuse you've lost the argument wilts , an argument you lost decades ago but still won't accept it .
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If you don't believe the stats on the popularity of Labour's policies tyke - that's your problem not mine.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election
If you come on here calling for a Stalinist purge of Labour members you don't like - and you don't like the response you get - that's your problem not mine.
The centre is where it's at! Which is why the Lib Dem's and Change UK did so well is it.
Well done Tony Blair in 1997. Lets see how someone proposing; joining the Euro, unlimited immigration, a public sector funded by PFI, invading countries that are no threat to us with no plan for the aftermath - thus leaving them as centres for international terrorism - gets on in 2020.
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If you don't believe the stats on the popularity of Labour's policies tyke - that's your problem not mine.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/21/labour-leftwing-brexit-policies-election
If you come on here calling for a Stalinist purge of Labour members you don't like - and you don't like the response you get - that's your problem not mine.
The centre is where it's at! Which is why the Lib Dem's and Change UK did so well is it.
Well done Tony Blair in 1997. Lets see how someone proposing; joining the Euro, unlimited immigration, a public sector funded by PFI, invading countries that are no threat to us with no plan for the aftermath - thus leaving them as centres for international terrorism - gets on in 2020.
I acknowledge the UK is a significantly different country to what it was in 1997 and a return to a pro EU stance will equally end up gifting the tories another 5 years in power .
For what it's worth New Labour under Blair wasn't without flaws and I'll accept that .
I come from a left wing background , ex NUM who fought the fight , when I left the industry I was a union rep for many years and was proud to do so .
My involvement in union work taught me many things , it taught me that the workplace is a two way street and compromise is for the greater interest , profits have to be made , costs have to be examined and pay levels have to be sensible or we all go down the road and where's the sense in that with unrealistic proposals that can't be met .
You have to accept Thatcher changed this country for ever and it won't ever go back to what it was and the greater majority of the electorate don't want it to either .
Individualism has replaced solidarity , most of the young people at my workplace don't know what a trade union is and what's more they don't want to know either , as long as they are ok jack .
McCluskey isn't even relevant today never mind a major influence in the Labour Party , he's toxic and a vote loser , get rid .
The left have taken the party backwards , taken it over on a £3 membership ticket that appeals to many of an age who haven't grasped the realities of life yet , the cost of free stuff and nationalisation apparently comes from someone else and not themselves .
You can't attack the wealth or they go and invest somewhere else .
You work with the conditions of today to gain power and by getting enough of the electorate onside and in to government you are then in a position to raise the living standards of those who need it but without wealth providers you cannot .
Yes we need an efficient NHS fit for purpose , yes we need a massive amount of affordable housing and yes the train industry could be taken back under a nationalisation programme but not everything as Corbyn wanted to do .
It might also be a good idea for Labour to elect a leader without any skeletons in the cupboard and not make it easy meat for the right wing tabloids to attack .
Keir Starmer is such a man , the acceptable face and appealing to middle england .
Bin the fantasy free stuff , stop attacking the wealth and stick to socially progressive policies that the electorate can identify with and are popular , the NHS and affordable housing and then we might have a shot at this in five years time .
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Tyke, you could have skipped the vast majority of that post which is basically just you having a moan, as only the last paragraph is relevant.
I disagree there was any 'fantasy free stuff', other than broadband which is infrastructure investment and would have paid for itself anyway, but wholeheartedly agree with the rest of it.
The next leader should be the best person for the job. The person whose ideas and personality best connect with the public. I hope it is a woman, as it is embarrassing Labour have never had a female leader, but if it is Keir Starmer or another man, I don't care so long as they are the best person.
What Labour will never do is win power by being factionalised. I advise you to forget about hard-left or centrist and think about what policies should a progressive, left of centre party coalesce around.
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Wilts.
That last paragraph. Does that mean you're going to stop throwing out "Blairite" and "Centrist" as a blunderbuss insult to anyone who criticises any aspect of party policy?
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Tyke, you could have skipped the vast majority of that post which is basically just you having a moan, as only the last paragraph is relevant.
I disagree there was any 'fantasy free stuff', other than broadband which is infrastructure investment and would have paid for itself anyway, but wholeheartedly agree with the rest of it.
The next leader should be the best person for the job. The person whose ideas and personality best connect with the public. I hope it is a woman, as it is embarrassing Labour have never had a female leader, but if it is Keir Starmer or another man, I don't care so long as they are the best person.
What Labour will never do is win power by being factionalised. I advise you to forget about hard-left or centrist and think about what policies should a progressive, left of centre party coalesce around.
That's all well and good about factionalised but when the policy makers come from the likes of John McDonnell and driven by Momentum and endorsed by McCluskey it's difficult to escape the hard left rhetoric , throw in Corbyn and Abbott for good measure and you know what Labour are .
We both want the same thing a Labour government we disagree on how we go about that but would you agree the personnel have to change in order to deliver the socially progressive policies that are our historical standard ?
Credibility has to be right at the top of the agenda when electing a leader and his shadow cabinet , the tories may be able to get away with electing a racist , a serial liar , a homophobic with a record of failure in higher office but we don't have that luxury .
Corbyn with lipstick on just won't do .
Everything looks bleak right now but wait a while , there's already rumblings inside the tory party who are wanting tax cuts and they don't want to see Johnson's new friends in the north seeing much investment either .
Tory Party donors to the tune of millions of pounds don't donate so that Leigh and Redcar gets their bus station done up that I do know .
See how this clown Gets His Brexit Done when it comes to negotiating a trade deal with the EU inside 12 months .
Yeh it's possible but only if he concedes ground to the EU on a grand scale and pysses off the ERG to the extent they see their Singapore On Thames wet dream diminish by the bloke they trusted and put in office .
See how he goes managing the economy and the expected downturn .
The fact is 88% of the Tory Campaign consisted of lies and the avoidance of scrutiny .
They own the next five years now and there's nobody else to blame anymore , something Major found out to his cost in 97 .
Credible , credible , credible and some common sense please and we can rout this lot in five years time .
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Pigs will fly before Labour sorts itself out,Momentun is too deeply entrenched.
Is membership still £3. Drop it to 50 p and then a million hard right of centre true Labour voters in and get momentum kicked out/out voted.
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Wilts.
That last paragraph. Does that mean you're going to stop throwing out "Blairite" and "Centrist" as a blunderbuss insult to anyone who criticises any aspect of party policy?
Well that depends on the context and content of who and what I am replying to doesn't it Billy - although I dont believe I have ever used the term 'centrist' in my life.
But if you want to continue the factionalising then fair enough, away you go, I doubt it will get Labour in power but Sproty will enjoy it.
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Wilts.
Factionalising eh? That's a good one.
You have frequently called me a "Blairite" for disagreeing with you.
You have supported a leadership which has a career-long record of disparaging people who don't share it's views of the policies the Labour movement should follow.
I (someone who has been a Labour party member for most of my adult life) have been told by people who joined the party in 2015 that I am a "Red Tory" that I should "shut the f**k up because it's no longer my party" that "there's no discussion to be had with the likes of you because you're the problem" among many other similar comments.
I've campaigned for Labour through thick and thin over 4 decades while some on the left haughtily decided that supporting Blair and Brown was too far for their principles to stretch to. And those same people have just delivered us the worst election result since the days of Ramsay MacDonald.
I'd have thought a bit of quiet reflection from those who took over the party in 2015 might be in order, rather than shouting the odds at those who predicted this f**king disaster. But then, those on the Left are always right aren't they? It's always the rest of the world that is wrong.
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Billy, you have spent the best part of 5 years ON HERE complaining about Corbyn and his policies - then feign surprise when the general public don't support them.
I put ON HERE in capitals because you have moaned before about what people call you. Neither I nor I guess anyone else on this board has the least interest in you outside of this board.
If you want to continue factionalising then that is entirely up to you. Away you go, see how well it works for you.
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Wilts.
So you regularly calling me a "Blairite" as an insult isn't factionalising then, eh?
And by the way. Once again you ignore the fact that I've supported Corbyn's domestic policies regularly and consistently. What I've criticised is a) his idiotic and infantile Milne-driven foreign policies and b) his quality of leadership.
On a) I seem to be in the company of Rebecca Long-Bailey. On b) a leader who managed to resurrect the corpse of the LDs, convince Leavers he supported Remain and Remainers he supported Leave, and attain the worst LotO poll ratings in history seems worthy of a tiny bit of criticism, don't you think?
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According to this it was people deserting Labour in the EU elections and the decisions taken after that led directly to the GE defeat:
https://twitter.com/FromSteveHowell/status/1212344485918728192
but you keep telling us how great you are and how much you did to support Labour and its leader Billy.
The LD's lost 9 MP's btw - some resurrection
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I'm thinking that instead trying to win the party back from the vice like Left control it would be far easier to breakaway and offering those who are of centre thinking a new home .
There could even be an alignment with the Liberal Democrats and The Greens .
A chance to reboot centre politics with a new image and leave the dinosaurs in the Labour Party to it and their socialist utopia protest movement .
The penny clearly won't drop , the electorate don't want them , historical Labour voters don't want em and they seem to enjoy getting walloped at GE's .
What more can I say :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
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According to this it was people deserting Labour in the EU elections and the decisions taken after that led directly to the GE defeat:
https://twitter.com/FromSteveHowell/status/1212344485918728192
but you keep telling us how great you are and how much you did to support Labour and its leader Billy.
The LD's lost 9 MP's btw - some resurrection
According to what? The unsubstantiated claims of a factionalist? (I'm at liberty to call him that because he's there chucking the Blairite slur around.)
And he's also a menadcious factionalist.
At the time of the local elections, Labour and the Tories were both on around 30% of the vote in opinion polls. Labour had lost 10-12% to the LDs and Greens over the first few months of the year. The Tories had lost a similar amount to Farage.
Labour went into a nosedive from there, and by June, had lost another 10% to the LDs.
It was blindingly obvious to anyone (and I predicted it regularly back then) that the Tories would rescue their position by electing Johnson and tacking right to eliminate Farage.
So to suggest, as Howell does, that Labour was set fair in May to win an election later in the year is either mendacity or political naivety of the highest order. You quote him, so you take your pick.
Meanwhile, outside the Church of the Blessed St Jeremy, it was obvious to anyone that Labour was in danger of being entirely eclipsed by the LDs. By early June, Labour were down to the low 20s in the polls and the LDs were up to the high teens.
Anyone who ignores those facts and tries to suggest that Labour would have been just fine if they had supported Leave is either an idiot or has an agenda to push. And I've read enough from you and Howell to know that neither of you are idiots.
Regarding the LDs' performance at the Election, you seem to be determined to be obtuse, so I'll spell it out.
Their vote went up by 1.3m on 2017.
a) Where do you think those votes came from?
b) What effect do you think it had on Labour's performance?
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Meanwhile, by the way, in doing the usual thing that the Left does (spinning a legend that it would all have been alright but for the traitors to the right if them in the party) Howell does what the whole of Team Corbyn is doing. He insists that the whole problem was Brexit.
And in doing so, he ignores all the polling evidence that the number 1 reason people deserted Labour wasn't Brexit. It was Corbyn.
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Meanwhile, by the way, in doing the usual thing that the Left does (spinning a legend that it would all have been alright but for the traitors to the right if them in the party) Howell does what the whole of Team Corbyn is doing. He insists that the whole problem was Brexit.
And in doing so, he ignores all the polling evidence that the number 1 reason people deserted Labour wasn't Brexit. It was Corbyn.
I had to hold my nose and vote Labour last month , it was an extremely difficult decision and my initial thoughts were to not vote at all and I'm a former member and a Labour voter all my life .
The only reason I voted Labour was because I didn't want the embarrassment of having a Tory MP in Barnsley Central because I knew it was going to be a tight thing and I didn't want to see Dan Jarvis kicked out to a Tory because of the idiots who control the party .
A Tory MP in Barnsley !!!!!!!!!
If the Brexit Party hadn't stood and split the vote Dan Jarvis was toast and won by only 3k votes .
It's coming to something when the tories have a sniff round my neck of the woods I can tell you that .
But hey ho they did well in Putney apparently .
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This thread has gone very quiet....
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Labour need a completely new head honcho, Kier Starmer and Long Bailey are supposed to be the front runners.
They attract completely different factions in the party, Long Bailey the failed Corbynista faction that has alienated the Northern heartlands, and are too radical for most by being linked to momentum.
And Kier Starmer who is more centre right, but is seen by the same voters as a leader who tried his best to stop Brexit against their wishes.
Neither them, nor any of the front bench nodding donkeys should even be proposed as leaders of the Labour Party if they have any thought of winning some of the support they lost in the last election ever again.
They also need to get rid of the just come out of University, have no real experience of life, but you need to live your lives this way, because we know better than you attitude they portray, and start to realise that the tribal attitudes have changed, not always for the best I might add, and people are more self centred, are more individual and are bothered about policies that effect their lives.
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Labour need a completely new head honcho, Kier Starmer and Long Bailey are supposed to be the front runners.
They attract completely different factions in the party, Long Bailey the failed Corbynista faction that has alienated the Northern heartlands, and are too radical for most by being linked to momentum.
And Kier Starmer who is more centre right, but is seen by the same voters as a leader who tried his best to stop Brexit against their wishes.
Neither them, nor any of the front bench nodding donkeys should even be proposed as leaders of the Labour Party if they have any thought of winning some of the support they lost in the last election ever again.
They also need to get rid of the just come out of University, have no real experience of life, but you need to live your lives this way, because we know better than you attitude they portray, and start to realise that the tribal attitudes have changed, not always for the best I might add, and people are more self centred, are more individual and are bothered about policies that effect their lives.
So, according to this, you’d only consider voting for Labour as long as they didn’t have a left wing or centre left leader?
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And Selby doesn't like Labour having London-centric leaders. Oh yeah, but he also didn't like them when their leader was MP for Donny, Shadow Chancellor MP for Leeds and Shadow Home Secretary MP for Ponty.
Anybody would think Selby makes his mind up first then finds reasons for it later.
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And Selby doesn't like Labour having London-centric leaders. Oh yeah, but he also didn't like them when their leader was MP for Donny, Shadow Chancellor MP for Leeds and Shadow Home Secretary MP for Ponty.
Anybody would think Selby makes his mind up first then finds reasons for it later.
Not forgetting his issue with those out of University, but he’s happy to be led by a self entitled Bullion Boy who’s got a clear grasp of life in towns like Donny of course!!
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It doesn't matter where the next Labour leader comes from just as long as he isn't consumed by the country's capital city and doesn't take the votes around these parts as a given although I'd like to think that particular penny has now dropped .
What's important are credibility , leadership qualities and policies that chime with at least 42% of the electorate .
It would also be a significant step forward if the new leader understands that power delivers hope and hope doesn't lead to power .
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Herbert and Billy, it seems to me that you are that clever at theories, and busy looking at statistics, that you are failing to look around you and seeing what is happening, I suggest you go out to the pub and go in the bar area and just listen to people.
It might just open your minds to what people are really thinking.
By the way Herbert I went off Milliband when attending a local village sports dinner and was selling the raffle tickets. All the local lads were chucking a tenner in when things were not that good some years ago. His nibs asked how much they were, £1 a ticket, he gave me the quid, things must have been hard, probably claimed it back on expenses, his counterfoil didn't go in though.
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Herbert and Billy, it seems to me that you are that clever at theories, and busy looking at statistics, that you are failing to look around you and seeing what is happening, I suggest you go out to the pub and go in the bar area and just listen to people.
It might just open your minds to what people are really thinking.
By the way Herbert I went off Milliband when attending a local village sports dinner and was selling the raffle tickets. All the local lads were chucking a tenner in when things were not that good some years ago. His nibs asked how much they were, £1 a ticket, he gave me the quid, things must have been hard, probably claimed it back on expenses, his counterfoil didn't go in though.
Selby, I really don’t understand your logic? It seems to me that it’s irrelevant who Labour select, you’ll find some reason to dislike them. As for looking around, I do this every day and that’s precisely why I’m a Socialist. The country is in an awful mess primarily due to having a Tory Government for the past 9 years & yet you seem happy to continue with the Status Quo that has created these issues. If you’re looking around I’m not sure where you’re looking if you think things are acceptable. For many, many people things are bad but unfortunately we have a Tory Government who promote an ‘I’m alright jack’ attitude that’s lapped up by its supporters.
Maybe you could point out what I’m missing thats going on around me and why its Labours fault??
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Selby.
Thanks for your advice.
On the subject of listening. I've offered to listen to you several times on what positive things you'd like politicians to do.
Never had a response.
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Billy, I want politicians to stop looking after themselves and do the best for the country.
You know as well as I do, that over the last three and a half years, the main point has not been Brexit. The Liberal and Labour party have used the subject to try and wrestle power away from the Tories. Most of the analysis and projections used in arguments both for and against are complete guess work, and were fabricated to substantiate whatever side of the argument they wanted to project. Just a few months ago you were getting excited about the chances of Labour being in power at No 10. Not stopping Brexit, getting back in power, Sydney another who has an innate hatred of the Tory party. Brexit a subject you could sort out after gaining power.
Brexit was nothing more than a tool to beat them with, some MP's in Parliament especially the opposition parties jumping on the band wagon when their own constituents held a completely opposite view to their parties grab for power, and who, to them, Brexit was the main subject
Well they and you and some other followers on here are going to pay a big price for those shenanigans, Labour will do well to ever be a significant threat for 10 to fifteen years, in fact because of the weight of responsibility all the so called opposition parties now carry of alienating the electorate, there is a good chance that another party could be formed, and overtake them as popular, as long as they stay clear of attracting the failed toss pots from the present opposition.
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Billy, I want politicians to stop looking after themselves and do the best for the country.
You know as well as I do, that over the last three and a half years, the main point has not been Brexit. The Liberal and Labour party have used the subject to try and wrestle power away from the Tories. Most of the analysis and projections used in arguments both for and against are complete guess work, and were fabricated to substantiate whatever side of the argument they wanted to project. Just a few months ago you were getting excited about the chances of Labour being in power at No 10. Not stopping Brexit, getting back in power, Sydney another who has an innate hatred of the Tory party. Brexit a subject you could sort out after gaining power.
Brexit was nothing more than a tool to beat them with, some MP's in Parliament especially the opposition parties jumping on the band wagon when their own constituents held a completely opposite view to their parties grab for power, and who, to them, Brexit was the main subject
Well they and you and some other followers on here are going to pay a big price for those shenanigans, Labour will do well to ever be a significant threat for 10 to fifteen years, in fact because of the weight of responsibility all the so called opposition parties now carry of alienating the electorate, there is a good chance that another party could be formed, and overtake them as popular, as long as they stay clear of attracting the failed toss pots from the present opposition.
I have to disagree with your view that Labour will not be a significant player for the next 10 to 15 years .
Under its present marionettist's I'd agree but I'm reading Keir Starmer has the support to win should he stand as leader which I think he will .
The next five years contain as much potential for economic meltdown and social unrest as you are likely to to see .
The Tory Party election manifesto was particularly light and lacking in detail much past the first 12 months in government .
Scutiny avoided and 88% of it lies .
Johnson seems to be the man of the moment , he may not want to show his face around these parts in 2 years time to say the least .
It will be his new found friends in the North who will pay the highest price when the downturn occurs and there will be a downturn , the only question is how severe will it be ? .
The country may well be ready for a return to grown up politics in five years time and a credible PM .
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Selby.
Tough to know where to start there.
1) You want politicians who are for the country not for themselves? But you're celebrating us having a PM who engineered Brexit precisely to further his own career!
2) You think that Labour and the LDs resisted Brexit purely for party political reasons? Where's your evidence for that? The Labour party MEMBERSHIP (who drive policy) were against the Brexit that we have got as a matter of principle, because of the damage it will do to the country. Corbyn just wanted Brexit done because he knew it was a vote loser for Labour, and because at heart he was always a Leaver.
3) But you still haven't answered the core of my question. What POLICIES do you want a party to put forward to attract your vote?
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Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned
2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.
The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?
Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.
Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?
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Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned
2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.
The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?
Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.
Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?
Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .
Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .
I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .
Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .
Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .
The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .
I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .
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Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned
2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.
The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?
Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.
Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?
Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .
Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .
I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .
Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .
Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .
The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .
I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .
Tyke - what are you talking about?
My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.
Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.
Stupidity is never a good look.
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Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned
2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.
The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?
Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.
Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?
Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .
Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .
I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .
Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .
Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .
The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .
I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .
Tyke - what are you talking about?
My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.
Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.
Stupidity is never a good look.
Because reading your posts leaves me to belief you think the left have something to offer the electorate .
The sort of offerings that the electorate don't buy and lead us having to accept Tory governments as a consequence .
I'm not prepared to accept it and I will take make you and any left wing view accountable .
I don't shy away from debate and I welcome criticism of my own views .
I'm a very pragmatic Labour voter with a deep dislike of the Tory Party and who they represent and their motives .
I wouldn't be doing justice to myself to not question a flawed vehicle that handed the keys to a Tory Government on a plate .
It's not personal , it is what it is .
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Here's a question for you Selby, when was the last time you voted Labour in a general election and if you did why?
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Sydney 2017 because I believed them when they said they would accept the result of the referendum, which meant a lot to me even though I voted to remain in it. During the campaign that followed I got more and more agitated by the remain stance against the wishes of the electorate and vowed never to vote for them again in my life, unless they backed the referendum result that became more and more obvious, the labour party in Westminster were not going to do, and were only using the subject to gain power for themselves.
Until 1978 I lived in the Doncaster North constituency and voted like everone else Labour. I then moved into the Selby area (Conservative) and continued to vote Labour, moving in 1992 to my present address and until 2019 voted Labour, until in the last election for the first time in my life, I decided I wanted no more of Corbyn, Lammy, and loads of other shitheads representing my vote.
When it comes to lies, the remainers who renegaded on their promise to respect the vote told the biggest and most insulting lie ever to be put to the electorate, and have now paid their price, and have as a result had their little elite world shoved up their backsides and rightly so.
Like Lion I live in the Brigg Goole constituency, the Conservative MP (Andrew Percy) has now a massive majority, works hard for the area, puts a lot of energy into attracting new industries and has actually been to meetings in my village of less than a thousand occupants and sends a circular round at regular intervals and keeps people informed about local issues.
In the election only one house had a labour poster in a window in an admittedly strung out village, and had no contact at all with the labour candidate who I have no idea who it was, and unless my wife threw any correspondence away unknown to me, no postal contact at all.
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So then you voted for a party that wrecked the economy and wanted to leave with a leader that has never kept his word in his life? that's some epiphany but thanks for you're answer.
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So then you voted for a party that wrecked the economy and wanted to leave with a leader that has never kept his word in his life? that's some epiphany but thanks for you're answer.
Sydders Labourr would have done a far better job of wrecking the economy that's why folks voted Conservative.
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Still not a word from you, Selby, on what policies you want to see.
A constant stream of what you don't like, but not a murmur on what you DO like.
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Rovers, Beer, and Ladies in that order Billy.
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I think you have your priorities badly wrong Selby.
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Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned
2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.
The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?
Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.
Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?
Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .
Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .
I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .
Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .
Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .
The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .
I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .
Tyke - what are you talking about?
My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.
Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.
Stupidity is never a good look.
Because reading your posts leaves me to belief you think the left have something to offer the electorate .
The sort of offerings that the electorate don't buy and lead us having to accept Tory governments as a consequence .
I'm not prepared to accept it and I will take make you and any left wing view accountable .
I don't shy away from debate and I welcome criticism of my own views .
I'm a very pragmatic Labour voter with a deep dislike of the Tory Party and who they represent and their motives .
I wouldn't be doing justice to myself to not question a flawed vehicle that handed the keys to a Tory Government on a plate .
It's not personal , it is what it is .
So Kier Starmer is wrong then when he "urged the party not to lurch to the right and said the case for a “bold and radical” Labour government was as important as ever."
and Lisa Nandy when she said: Trust was the issue, not the radicalism, not the deep fundamental change we were promising, but trust'.
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Selby - a few more points to consider that have not yet been mentioned
2 new political parties were formed last year (Change UK & Brexit) - both have pretty much disappeared without trace.
The Labour Party has over 500000 members - a number which has actually increased since the GE - why do you think these people will want a progressive left wing government less in the next 5 years to want to leave the party?
Around 50% of the Tory vote in the GE came from people aged 55 or over. What policy on social care can Johnson come up with that doesn't badly affect the people who didn't vote for him whilst rewarding the ones who did? Or if he does that - how will that affect his chances in 5 years.
Finally, 12 million people voted Tory, 10 million people voted Labour - 15 million registered voters didn't vote. They clearly don't like the Tories (or they would have voted for them) and Brexit isn't a big issue for them, so what does the new Labour leader need to do to win enough of these people over in time for the next election?
Wilts the Labour Party can have as many members as it wants but 500k doesn't speak for the whole of the UK .
Sorry to burst your bubble but unless you get 42% of the electorate who want a left wing government then your stats simply do not stack up .
I wish I had a pound for everyone who told me Corbyn packed out halls around the country who wanted to hear him speak .
Listen to what they wanted to hear more like , preaching to the converted .
Go in to the constituencies Blair won three times and see how that goes .
The left are good at protesting I'll give you that , winning elections seems to be a stumbling block , which is rather the point isn't it .
I sincerely hope this vanity project ends soon , denial is never a great look .
Tyke - what are you talking about?
My post was in response to Selby saying the Labour party is irrelevant will soon be overtaken by a new party because of its stance on Brexit.
Why is anything I have said not relevant to that? Or do you not bother to read threads.
Stupidity is never a good look.
Because reading your posts leaves me to belief you think the left have something to offer the electorate .
The sort of offerings that the electorate don't buy and lead us having to accept Tory governments as a consequence .
I'm not prepared to accept it and I will take make you and any left wing view accountable .
I don't shy away from debate and I welcome criticism of my own views .
I'm a very pragmatic Labour voter with a deep dislike of the Tory Party and who they represent and their motives .
I wouldn't be doing justice to myself to not question a flawed vehicle that handed the keys to a Tory Government on a plate .
It's not personal , it is what it is .
So Kier Starmer is wrong then when he "urged the party not to lurch to the right and said the case for a “bold and radical” Labour government was as important as ever."
and Lisa Nandy when she said: Trust was the issue, not the radicalism, not the deep fundamental change we were promising, but trust'.
Yes
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Thanks Ldr.
No offence but I know if you disagree with them they must be doing something right.
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Thanks Ldr.
No offence but I know if you disagree with them they must be doing something right.
So you dont want Labour to appeal to floating voters then? Be hard to win elections without us
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Ldr.
Funny thing is. Radical economics works when it is tried out. And the results are wildly popular.
https://kontrast.at/portugal-economy-right-wing/amp/?fbclid=IwAR0tIXdPeXiSjClCLnxCfyUave5grijLOLhvwPUBmDaXzSLNPd1o0L7gp70&__twitter_impression=true
Forgive if this sounds like a dig, but what you are doing, and Tyke to some extent, is falling prey to the allure of what Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman calls "Very Serious People". By that, he means so called experts who appear gravely serious and believable when they stroke their beards and sadly nod their heads and say that radical economics won't work.
They SOUND serious. They are actually ignorant of the facts.
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Ldr.
Funny thing is. Radical economics works when it is tried out. And the results are wildly popular.
https://kontrast.at/portugal-economy-right-wing/amp/?fbclid=IwAR0tIXdPeXiSjClCLnxCfyUave5grijLOLhvwPUBmDaXzSLNPd1o0L7gp70&__twitter_impression=true
Forgive if this sounds like a dig, but what you are doing, and Tyke to some extent, is falling prey to the allure of what Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman calls "Very Serious People". By that, he means so called experts who appear gravely serious and believable when they stroke their beards and sadly nod their heads and say that radical economics won't work.
They SOUND serious. They are actually ignorant of the facts.
I'm no expert Billy by any means but whether there's any merit in radical policies is neither here nor there in the UK .
The country simply won't vote that way in the numbers you need to win elections .
Whether we like or not this is a Tory country and they are difficult to beat in GE's .
Not enough people trust radical , it frightens them and so they vote safe .
The establishment and the media tycoons will simply trash this stuff , remember Miliband's slight lurch to the left , he then became Red Ed .
You can't beat the system , they have this thing stitched up .
Blair knew the importance of getting the media onside and distancing himself from the unions and the left .
He routed the Tories and then he went to work improving the lives of working class people , the NHS , new schools , the minimum wage , he built thousands of thousands of affordable housing through housing associations .
Roll that manifesto out with a left wing hat on and he wouldn't have got near government .
Blair showed how you can win and still improve lives for the working class .
Image and cedibility are where it's at , radical has none in the UK .
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What I'm saying is that any party wanting to win a UK general election needs to woo floating voters, nothing more, nothing less
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Another thing you hear the left say is ....
" Our policies wouldn't be considered radical in Scandinavia "and it's perfectly true they wouldn't and what's more they seem to work fine .
The only flaw is that this isn't Scandinavia so their point is neither here nor there .
Different electorate with different values going on there .
I'll say once again Power Brings Hope , it ain't the other way round .
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Tyke.
I beg to differ.
The policies I'm talking about are extremely popular in polls. Labour need to do a credible and very long duration job of setting out the detail and pushing the way they would fund it. Relentlessly. Over and over.
What they don't need to do is to publish a manifesto in an election with surprises like free broadband and then a couple of days later say "oh aye. And we'll find £60bn for the WASPI women." That was suicidal.
There's another thing as well. The Tories have controlled the political agenda on spending for so long that people now think Austerity is a law of physics. So you had people saying (and I heard it on a doorstep in Kiveton) "I like Labour's NHS policy but how will they pay for it?" Labour has to break that mindset. Or you had people saying that nationalisation won't work in practice.
And here's a thing. It's easy. They could hammer on the fact that under Blair and Brown, Labour DID massively increase funding for hospitals and schools. They DID nationalise Railtrack and the East Coast Main Line and they worked excellently. Far better than they did in the private sector.
Labour has a proud record on those topics.
So...
Why on earth weren't the leadership passionately selling that line? When did you EVER hear Corbyn praise anything done by the last Labour Govt on the economy or services?
We've had a decade of the Tories saying the last Labour Govt was shite. We've had half a decade of the Labour leadership agreeing with them. And THEN expecting people to trust Labour...
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Thanks Ldr.
No offence but I know if you disagree with them they must be doing something right.
So you dont want Labour to appeal to floating voters then? Be hard to win elections without us
I want a programme that appeals to a large number of the 10 million people who did vote Labour and a large proportion of those 15 million people who registered but didn't vote.
Should it also appeal to you then great - but why would you devise a programme for 12 million people who voted Tory- and probably will again - when there are 30 million who didn't.
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On both Billy and Tyke points see what Lisa Nandy said on tv today: people liked the policies but they didn't trust us to deliver them.
So that is the challenge of the next leader and leadership team - they have 5 years to work out how to get round the mainstream media and convince the public - or at least enough of the 30 million people (68%) who didn't vote Tory last month - that they can be a credible party of government who will deliver on their policies.
How they will do that is one of the question I would like the candidates to address in the leadership race.
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Tyke.
I beg to differ.
The policies I'm talking about are extremely popular in polls. Labour need to do a credible and very long duration job of setting out the detail and pushing the way they would fund it. Relentlessly. Over and over.
What they don't need to do is to publish a manifesto in an election with surprises like free broadband and then a couple of days later say "oh aye. And we'll find £60bn for the WASPI women." That was suicidal.
There's another thing as well. The Tories have controlled the political agenda on spending for so long that people now think Austerity is a law of physics. So you had people saying (and I heard it on a doorstep in Kiveton) "I like Labour's NHS policy but how will they pay for it?" Labour has to break that mindset. Or you had people saying that nationalisation won't work in practice.
And here's a thing. It's easy. They could hammer on the fact that under Blair and Brown, Labour DID massively increase funding for hospitals and schools. They DID nationalise Railtrack and the East Coast Main Line and they worked excellently. Far better than they did in the private sector.
Labour has a proud record on those topics.
So...
Why on earth weren't the leadership passionately selling that line? When did you EVER hear Corbyn praise anything done by the last Labour Govt on the economy or services?
We've had a decade of the Tories saying the last Labour Govt was shite. We've had half a decade of the Labour leadership agreeing with them. And THEN expecting people to trust Labour...
Generally the Tories fall on their sword Billy as Major did in the 90's .
Johnson will fall on his too in my opinion , absolutely convinced of it .
Once the economy slumps , jobs are lost , house prices go in to negative equity territory Johnson will have the music to face .
So the answer to your point in my opinion is it's as much about the Tory Party failing spectacularly as it is about Labour changing hearts and minds .
I don't actually recall Blair's 97 manifesto to be anything other than safe ground , the minimum wage had been talked about for a decade previously , it wasn't anything new at the time in reality .
The Tories have failed for a decade , borrowed more money than any Labour Government combined in history in the last 9 years .
Austerity was an ideology to shrink the state not a necessity policy to balance the books .
Foodbanks are now an acceptable way for working people to feed themselves , the NHS underfunded and not fit for purpose .
And that's without even mentioning Brexit which occured to heal the divisions in the Tory Party .
You'd think under those conditions the left and radical would triumph , instead they got routed .
I'm an old leftie myself Billy but I'd sooner win elections myself thanks very much than sing the Red Flag .
Stay calm , be credible and sensible and the keys to number 10 are easily attainable .
Johnson and his government will be Labour's biggest friend in the years to come .
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I didn't see the interview but I notice Keir Starmer is quoted as saying on Marr something similar to that I posted earlier: that he also believe Labours radical policies were popular and he would continue with them.
Here is the evidence which backs this up:
What voters think about nationalisation:
Railways: 56% support, 22% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)
Water: 50% support, 25% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)
Electricity: 45% support, 29% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)
Royal Mail: 55% support, 28% oppose (ComRes, 11-12 September)
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1213837178561843200
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I didn't see the interview but I notice Keir Starmer is quoted as saying on Marr something similar to that I posted earlier: that he also believe Labours radical policies were popular and he would continue with them.
Here is the evidence which backs this up:
What voters think about nationalisation:
Railways: 56% support, 22% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)
Water: 50% support, 25% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)
Electricity: 45% support, 29% oppose (YouGov, 7-8 November)
Royal Mail: 55% support, 28% oppose (ComRes, 11-12 September)
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1213837178561843200
The problem is Wilts and I don't disagree with the polls at all by the way .
Anything nationalised is communism according to the Establishment and their media attack dogs .
Both you and I know it isn't but that's what you are up against .
A Nationalisation programme gives them the mandate to attack you just as Corbyn found out .
I think you'd possibly get away with the railways given they are expensive and run inefficiently .
I'd hold fire on the rest personally and make the railways a success story first giving you the credibility to nationalise further .
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So then you voted for a party that wrecked the economy and wanted to leave with a leader that has never kept his word in his life? that's some epiphany but thanks for you're answer.
Sydders Labourr would have done a far better job of wrecking the economy that's why folks voted Conservative.
Yeah because the economists were wrong when they said they backed Labours spending plan over the Conservatives, not the people who were led down the garden path.
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Wilts.
I'm generally with you on much of what you've said here, except that I think you're being optimistic if you think you'll make much of a dent in the 15million who didn't vote. Because the issue isn't so much that they DIDN'T vote. It's that they DON'T vote. They're not sat at home waiting for a great Labour manifesto to inspire them. They are disengaged entirely from politics. Making inroads into that problem is a generation-long task. It's education and culture that need to be changed and I don't see a difference being made on that in 4-5 years.
I do agree that there's unlikely to be much churn between Lab and Tory directly, so Labour shouldn't be appealing to Tory voters - at least not long-term confirmed Tories. What Labour has to do is to neutralize the Greens and LDs as repositories of left-leaning votes while pulling back the few hundred thousand supporters they lost to Farage in the north and Midlands marginals. And THERE'S a challenge because the former want progressive, internationalist approaches while the latter are instinctively socially conservative and nationalistic. I don't know how you solve that.
There is the massive issue though. That Oppositions don't win elections - Governing parties lose them. Look at the changes of Govt over the past 50 years.
2010 - Labour crippled by the Global Financial Crisis.
1997 - Tories lost economic credibility after Black Weds, and lost party discipline over Europe.
1979 - Labour hammered by the IMF crisis and the Winter of Discontent.
1974 - Tories lost control of the nation in the Three Day Week.
In every case, the number 1 driver of the change of Govt was the sense that the governing party had lost control and didn't deserve to continue. Opposition's then win by looking like a credible alternative.
And THAT is what is so frustrating right now. Never since the War has a governing party been such a shambolic, out of control mess as the Tories over the past 2 years. And at the end of that, they've hammered Labour because Labour simply did not come across as a serious, credible Govt in waiting.
That's the most critical thing now. No more f**king about avoiding people's gazes when being asked if the leader will kneel before the Queen. No more acting as an apologist for foreign powers. No more self-indulgent months and months of navel gazing about the precise definition of anti-Semitism that we'd accept.
Get the core message sorted. Stick to it remorselessly. And close down distractions immediately.
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Wilts.
I'm generally with you on much of what you've said here, except that I think you're being optimistic if you think you'll make much of a dent in the 15million who didn't vote. Because the issue isn't so much that they DIDN'T vote. It's that they DON'T vote. They're not sat at home waiting for a great Labour manifesto to inspire them. They are disengaged entirely from politics. Making inroads into that problem is a generation-long task. It's education and culture that need to be changed and I don't see a difference being made on that in 4-5 years.
I do agree that there's unlikely to be much churn between Lab and Tory directly, so Labour shouldn't be appealing to Tory voters - at least not long-term confirmed Tories. What Labour has to do is to neutralize the Greens and LDs as repositories of left-leaning votes while pulling back the few hundred thousand supporters they lost to Farage in the north and Midlands marginals. And THERE'S a challenge because the former want progressive, internationalist approaches while the latter are instinctively socially conservative and nationalistic. I don't know how you solve that.
There is the massive issue though. That Oppositions don't win elections - Governing parties lose them. Look at the changes of Govt over the past 50 years.
2010 - Labour crippled by the Global Financial Crisis.
1997 - Tories lost economic credibility after Black Weds, and lost party discipline over Europe.
1979 - Labour hammered by the IMF crisis and the Winter of Discontent.
1974 - Tories lost control of the nation in the Three Day Week.
In every case, the number 1 driver of the change of Govt was the sense that the governing party had lost control and didn't deserve to continue. Opposition's then win by looking like a credible alternative.
And THAT is what is so frustrating right now. Never since the War has a governing party been such a shambolic, out of control mess as the Tories over the past 2 years. And at the end of that, they've hammered Labour because Labour simply did not come across as a serious, credible Govt in waiting.
That's the most critical thing now. No more f**king about avoiding people's gazes when being asked if the leader will kneel before the Queen. No more acting as an apologist for foreign powers. No more self-indulgent months and months of navel gazing about the precise definition of anti-Semitism that we'd accept.
Get the core message sorted. Stick to it remorselessly. And close down distractions immediately.
Billy it may well turn out to be not the election to have won given what the clown faces for the next five years .
I agree with the points you've raised , people are disenfranchised from politics and that's unlikely to change .
You have to work with what you have .
The clown has gone for broke on his brexit strategy , there's nobody left to blame now , he owns the next five years .
He falls and dies now on his own sword .
If he thinks the EU are going to roll over and give us a competitive edge in a trade deal inside 12 months then good luck with that .
If he rolls over and let's the EU tickle his belly then he's in for a rough ride within his own party and media backers .
If he takes us out with a no trade agreement then the consequences are obvious .
Once this thing starts costing people money and prosperity he's toast .
He owns it now , the whole 9 yards .
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Tyke.
May 1992. Tories had just won an election that Labour had been favourites to win.
I remember my grandad (Labour councillor and NUM branch official) saying to me that it was a poisoned chalice and that Labour were better off losing.
I've no idea to this day where he got his political acumen from. He'd left school at 13 to work at Cadeby pit and had no understanding of geo-economics and -politics.
But he called it bang on - 7 months later came Black Weds and the Tories fell apart. They wouldn't win another majority for nearly a quarter of a century.
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Here's a much sharper and higher profile person than me saying precisely what I was saying a few days ago.
https://mobile.twitter.com/shaunjlawson/status/1214504685647908864
If Labour doesn't get on board with strongly lauding what went RIGHT under Blair and Brown, they are doubling the severity of the task of persuading the electorate to support a future Labour Govt. That doesn't mean happy clapping and ignoring the many errors. But if you claim to be a Labour party supporter and never have a single good word to say about what Labour did in power, you are a major part of the problem.
There's another thing as well. The Tories have controlled the political agenda on spending for so long that people now think Austerity is a law of physics. So you had people saying (and I heard it on a doorstep in Kiveton) "I like Labour's NHS policy but how will they pay for it?" Labour has to break that mindset. Or you had people saying that nationalisation won't work in practice.
And here's a thing. It's easy. They could hammer on the fact that under Blair and Brown, Labour DID massively increase funding for hospitals and schools. They DID nationalise Railtrack and the East Coast Main Line and they worked excellently. Far better than they did in the private sector.
Labour has a proud record on those topics.
So...
Why on earth weren't the leadership passionately selling that line? When did you EVER hear Corbyn praise anything done by the last Labour Govt on the economy or services?
We've had a decade of the Tories saying the last Labour Govt was shite. We've had half a decade of the Labour leadership agreeing with them. And THEN expecting people to trust Labour...
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Shawn Lawson is right the Labour Party is shite and has been so for the past 40 years,well said that man!
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I don't get this constant harping on about Labour 'loosing working class voters'. The 'working class' have never been one particular thing or voice.
Certain workers went to work during the General Strike - as did miners during the Miners Strike. Enoch Powell represented a working class seat and the working class made up most of Oswald Mosley's support.
A point I think that is demonstrated perfectly by the contribution of some posters on this board.
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Shawn Lawson is right the Labour Party is shite and has been so for the past 40 years,well said that man!
It's like dealing with a bolshy five year old.
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👍😂😂😂
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By the way. This is what I mean about what Labour achieved when last in Govt.
https://mobile.twitter.com/labour_history/status/906441586183094279
When have you EVER heard a Corbynista talk approvingly of this record?
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There's been a lot of rewriting of history since that time bst.
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By the way. This is what I mean about what Labour achieved when last in Govt.
https://mobile.twitter.com/labour_history/status/906441586183094279
When have you EVER heard a Corbynista talk approvingly of this record?
I certainly heard Corbyn saying that Sure Start Centres were one of the main achievements of New Labour in the way they reduced poverty during the last election - I think it was a speech but I can't find it, the press release of the policy goes on about Tory cuts but it was the acknowledgement to New Labour that suprised me when I heard it - so failing that how about:
this bloke:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyns-top-policy-advisor-andrew-fisher-praises-tony-blairs-new-labour-a6814296.html
or this bloke:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11764704/Jeremy-Corbyn-I-want-to-build-a-National-Education-Service.html
or even this bloke:
https://news.sky.com/story/shadow-chancellor-john-mcdonnell-reaffirms-support-for-united-ireland-11528215
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Wilts.
Accepted. I went OTT in suggesting there was never any praise for the last Labour Govt.
But you see my point? And Harvey's? You have to dig to find it and you yourself say you were surprised by Corbyn praising Blair.
The problem is that the air of, at the very least studied indifference, at worst, outright hostility to the last Labour Govt impresses those on the far side of the Left, but it doesn't make it easy to convince the rest of the population that Labour can be trusted to deliver in Govt.
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Billy what you have actually shown is that the people who were hostile to Corbyn werre always hostile to Corbyn and were always going to be hostile to Corbyn - because of what they wanted him to say & be rather than what he actually said or did.
I notice Keir Starmer has recruited two of the blokes behind Labour First onto his staff - the right-wing group who want to expel/purge all Momentum members and anyone else who promotes socialists policies from the Labour Party.
How that will make Labour a 'broad church' or stop factionalisation on the left I wait to see, but you and tyke should feel at home if he gets in.
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Billy what you have actually shown is that the people who were hostile to Corbyn werre always hostile to Corbyn and were always going to be hostile to Corbyn - because of what they wanted him to say & be rather than what he actually said or did.
I notice Keir Starmer has recruited two of the blokes behind Labour First onto his staff - the right-wing group who want to expel/purge all Momentum members and anyone else who promotes socialists policies from the Labour Party.
How that will make Labour a 'broad church' or stop factionalisation on the left I wait to see, but you and tyke should feel at home if he gets in.
At home would be perhaps pushing it Wilts , did I buy the New Labour mandate fully ? , absolutely not .
For starters I'm not pro EU as Blair was and throwing benefits at former Northern industrial heartlands instead of solving the problem wasn't my idea of great governance .
However Blair won elections and anyone who routs the tories 3 times has to be respected .
Wilts you will not take capitalism on in opposition and get elected to government as Corbyn found out to his cost and the millions of us now subjected to another 5 years of Tory rule .
You talk the talk and walk the walk in opposition and once elected to government you change the direction of travel and deliver the socially progressive policies you historically have always stood on .
The bloody left are hopeless at winning elections , play the game Wilts just as those blue nose tw@ts do that's my point .
Stand on a left wing platform in opposition then good luck with that , get in to government and roll out nationalising the railways then that's another thing altogether .
I'm old enough to know but I never saw one thing in a Thatcher manifesto that said the Northern Heartlands were going to be destroyed or the Unions were going to be attacked aggressively .
Play the game mate .