Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Sprotyrover on April 22, 2020, 07:58:44 pm
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When you study the massive management wiring Diagram of the NHS.
How is it possible that they all seem to have washed their hands (very thoroughly) of any responsibility towards their front line staff, they seem very happy to deflect the blame upwards towards the Government. I can only assume that most have a history in nursing and have donned some Scrubs tied a hanky around their face and joined their colleagues on the front line, individuals who have earned the Martys crown every working day since January.
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What is your point.?
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Errr you do know that the supply of PPE was privatised to an American company a while back don't you sproty?
And that company itself changed hands only two weeks ago which I am sure helped the supply issues.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/revealed-private-firm-running-uk-ppe-stockpile-was-sold-in-middle-of-pandemic?CMP=share_btn_tw
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Errr you do know that the supply of PPE was privatised to an American company a while back don't you sproty?
And that company itself changed hands only two weeks ago which I am sure helped the supply issues.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/revealed-private-firm-running-uk-ppe-stockpile-was-sold-in-middle-of-pandemic?CMP=share_btn_tw
Err there are 5 towns in RDASH area any body with any nounce would have sourced a supply but it seems they have been sitting on their hands.
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You have to if you don't have gloves Sprot :)
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You have to if you don't have gloves Sprot :)
Sunday times news feed stating that NHS supply chain is accusing Hospitals of stockpililng PPE as 24,000 containers sent out to Hospitals throughout country have not been returned empty. Looks like the various Trusts are squirrelling away the stuff and acting like independent Palantinies.
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Yep, so who's in charge of the NHS?
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Sproty, you're talking b*llocks
DRI is waiting on supplies every single day
You need to stop believing everything that you read
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Sproty, you're talking b*llocks
DRI is waiting on supplies every single day
You need to stop believing everything that you read
Menad Atalaia
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Yep, so who's in charge of the NHS?
Is that not an issue for NHS management and staff? If it is stated that deliveries have been made but staff on the frontline are saying they don't have it then something is very wrong logistically.
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You have to if you don't have gloves Sprot :)
Sunday times news feed stating that NHS supply chain is accusing Hospitals of stockpililng PPE as 24,000 containers sent out to Hospitals throughout country have not been returned empty. Looks like the various Trusts are squirrelling away the stuff and acting like independent Palantinies.
Of course they're keeping stuff in stock. They've no idea when they'll get some more nor how long the stock they currently have will be expected to last. The do have to look further than what they immediately need in the next five minutes you know. They have to protect their people as much as possible for as long as possible, or do you think that's not their responsibility for some reason?
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The NHS was broken up into little competing fiefdoms by the appalling "reforms" introduced by Lansley in the early 2010s.
What do you expect the Trust's to do, but compete with each other? That is their raison d'etre.
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This gives an idea on the quantities of ppe used/required, it's staggering
''Why a billion items of PPE is not enough''
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52362707
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The NHS was broken up into little competing fiefdoms by the appalling "reforms" introduced by Lansley in the early 2010s.
What do you expect the Trust's to do, but compete with each other? That is their raison d'etre.
Foundation trusts which complete were introduced by the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) act of 2003, individual NHS trusts begin to operate early 90s
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The NHS was broken up into little competing fiefdoms by the appalling "reforms" introduced by Lansley in the early 2010s.
What do you expect the Trust's to do, but compete with each other? That is their raison d'etre.
Yes I think that’s the issue, maybe a software package that allows them to Share stuff according to needs. I can easily see one trust have 100 k face masks and no Aprons and vice versa at another trust.
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It's not solely a UK issue, as much as some want to point the finger at certain ministers, this is a global issue;
Even the Germans, who are treating less patients than we are have their issues;
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-is-failing-in-its-efforts-to-obtain-protective-gear-a-fd08b86c-7b3a-4ac2-b2fe-089f4490679c?fbclid=IwAR1ibnxiwFgldIJKuDrgKbXK_oKY3wncJqoFDHH3hk6EseNAOUACRI1fKJg
And what can we say about the USA??
And just to add by the way, for those who wish to criticise that we aren't engaging with UK manufacturers enough, do you know that over 8,000 companies have responded?
It's no surprise that some of those companies haven't heard back.
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The NHS was broken up into little competing fiefdoms by the appalling "reforms" introduced by Lansley in the early 2010s.
What do you expect the Trust's to do, but compete with each other? That is their raison d'etre.
Foundation trusts which complete were introduced by the Health and Social Care (Community Health and Standards) act of 2003, individual NHS trusts begin to operate early 90s
Apologies. You are right.
Note though that a report onto the Lansley Reforms by the widely respected King's Fund said that the "...reforms have resulted in greater marketisation of the NHS..."
Which is the core of my point. The structure that we currently have requires Trusts to compete against each other. What we need in this crisis is a central command structure that puts limited resources where they are most required, not where the managers are best at securing them.
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It's not solely a UK issue, as much as some want to point the finger at certain ministers, this is a global issue;
Even the Germans, who are treating less patients than we are have their issues;
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-is-failing-in-its-efforts-to-obtain-protective-gear-a-fd08b86c-7b3a-4ac2-b2fe-089f4490679c?fbclid=IwAR1ibnxiwFgldIJKuDrgKbXK_oKY3wncJqoFDHH3hk6EseNAOUACRI1fKJg
And what can we say about the USA??
And just to add by the way, for those who wish to criticise that we aren't engaging with UK manufacturers enough, do you know that over 8,000 companies have responded?
It's no surprise that some of those companies haven't heard back.
The bigger structural problem is our complete reliance on China when it comes to the production of pretty much everything and anything.
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SM.
I am perfectly happy to accept that it may be impossible for Western European countries to source enough masks for the population at large. Securing maybe 50million a day when we don't have indigenous manufacturers is a hell of an ask. What I'm talking about is treating people with honesty, not the, frankly, devious guidance that came out last night.
It sounds from your article as though they have been more open about the problem in Germany:
"A mask requirement was not seriously considered during a video conference between Chancellor Angela Merkel, several government ministers and Germany’s state governors either. The main argument was not that it wouldn’t make any sense, but that it wouldn't be possible because of the sheer lack of masks.
"They argued that a requirement forcing people to wear masks could not be implemented because the government hasn’t managed to procure sufficient face-coverings. If 80 million Germans were required to wear masks, there wouldn’t be enough for those who need them the most: doctors, nurses and the staff in nursing homes. During the chancellor’s meeting, some cited the example of South Korea, where electronics manufacturer Samsung provides each of its employees with two masks a day. This wouldn't be possible in Germany."
My over-riding concern at the moment is that our Govt seems still in the mindset where the most important thing is controlling the media story. It's time they started treating us like adults, instead of spinning every issue.
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It's not solely a UK issue, as much as some want to point the finger at certain ministers, this is a global issue;
Even the Germans, who are treating less patients than we are have their issues;
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-is-failing-in-its-efforts-to-obtain-protective-gear-a-fd08b86c-7b3a-4ac2-b2fe-089f4490679c?fbclid=IwAR1ibnxiwFgldIJKuDrgKbXK_oKY3wncJqoFDHH3hk6EseNAOUACRI1fKJg
And what can we say about the USA??
And just to add by the way, for those who wish to criticise that we aren't engaging with UK manufacturers enough, do you know that over 8,000 companies have responded?
It's no surprise that some of those companies haven't heard back.
The bigger structural problem is our complete reliance on China when it comes to the production of pretty much everything and anything.
Yes but that's far too simple as well. I work for a global manufacturer, we have 72 factories in about 30 countries, give or take. All our Chinese factories are up and running, its those in Eastern Europe and India that are causing the big issues.
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It's not solely a UK issue, as much as some want to point the finger at certain ministers, this is a global issue;
Even the Germans, who are treating less patients than we are have their issues;
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-is-failing-in-its-efforts-to-obtain-protective-gear-a-fd08b86c-7b3a-4ac2-b2fe-089f4490679c?fbclid=IwAR1ibnxiwFgldIJKuDrgKbXK_oKY3wncJqoFDHH3hk6EseNAOUACRI1fKJg
And what can we say about the USA??
And just to add by the way, for those who wish to criticise that we aren't engaging with UK manufacturers enough, do you know that over 8,000 companies have responded?
It's no surprise that some of those companies haven't heard back.
The bigger structural problem is our complete reliance on China when it comes to the production of pretty much everything and anything.
Certainly the Big Picture take home from this entire affair is our almost complete lack of any mass manufacturing capacity on home soil. If that is how you are going to run your economy, this crisis tells you that you have to look at reasonable worst-case future emergencies and make damn sure you have stockpiled huge amounts of what yo would need. You cannot outsource everything and then run your country without a safety net.
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SM.
I am perfectly happy to accept that it may be impossible for Western European countries to source enough masks for the population at large. Securing maybe 50million a day when we don't have indigenous manufacturers is a hell of an ask. What I'm talking about is treating people with honesty, not the, frankly, devious guidance that came out last night.
It sounds from your article as though they have been more open about the problem in Germany:
"A mask requirement was not seriously considered during a video conference between Chancellor Angela Merkel, several government ministers and Germany’s state governors either. The main argument was not that it wouldn’t make any sense, but that it wouldn't be possible because of the sheer lack of masks.
"They argued that a requirement forcing people to wear masks could not be implemented because the government hasn’t managed to procure sufficient face-coverings. If 80 million Germans were required to wear masks, there wouldn’t be enough for those who need them the most: doctors, nurses and the staff in nursing homes. During the chancellor’s meeting, some cited the example of South Korea, where electronics manufacturer Samsung provides each of its employees with two masks a day. This wouldn't be possible in Germany."
My over-riding concern at the moment is that our Govt seems still in the mindset where the most important thing is controlling the media story. It's time they started treating us like adults, instead of spinning every issue.
I wasn't having a pop at any one individual. And I'm sure I would sit more on your side of the fence than our current government.
The point I was making is that, even in our little forum, the opportunity to score political points rather than research and balance the situation we currently find ourselves in is too great for some. Just like Donald Trump we've politicised this battle for our own ends. I'm happy to see the Sir Keir Starmer hasn't gone that way, and offers to help, but that hasn't stopped members of his party.
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It's not solely a UK issue, as much as some want to point the finger at certain ministers, this is a global issue;
Even the Germans, who are treating less patients than we are have their issues;
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-is-failing-in-its-efforts-to-obtain-protective-gear-a-fd08b86c-7b3a-4ac2-b2fe-089f4490679c?fbclid=IwAR1ibnxiwFgldIJKuDrgKbXK_oKY3wncJqoFDHH3hk6EseNAOUACRI1fKJg
And what can we say about the USA??
And just to add by the way, for those who wish to criticise that we aren't engaging with UK manufacturers enough, do you know that over 8,000 companies have responded?
It's no surprise that some of those companies haven't heard back.
The bigger structural problem is our complete reliance on China when it comes to the production of pretty much everything and anything.
Yes but that's far too simple as well. I work for a global manufacturer, we have 72 factories in about 30 countries, give or take. All our Chinese factories are up and running, its those in Eastern Europe and India that are causing the big issues.
Granted. But how many of those factories rely on China for their supply chains? Its supply chain dependence that is the worrying thing. China's share of manufacturing is high for a single country but its supply and processing/distribution of raw materials is even higher.
Anyway, I don't have problems with China manufacturing stuff. The better way of putting is, as BST says, is a worrying lack of manufactuing capabilities/capacity with us.
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It's not solely a UK issue, as much as some want to point the finger at certain ministers, this is a global issue;
Even the Germans, who are treating less patients than we are have their issues;
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-is-failing-in-its-efforts-to-obtain-protective-gear-a-fd08b86c-7b3a-4ac2-b2fe-089f4490679c?fbclid=IwAR1ibnxiwFgldIJKuDrgKbXK_oKY3wncJqoFDHH3hk6EseNAOUACRI1fKJg
And what can we say about the USA??
And just to add by the way, for those who wish to criticise that we aren't engaging with UK manufacturers enough, do you know that over 8,000 companies have responded?
It's no surprise that some of those companies haven't heard back.
The bigger structural problem is our complete reliance on China when it comes to the production of pretty much everything and anything.
Yes but that's far too simple as well. I work for a global manufacturer, we have 72 factories in about 30 countries, give or take. All our Chinese factories are up and running, its those in Eastern Europe and India that are causing the big issues.
Granted. But how many of those factories rely on China for their supply chains? Its supply chain dependence that is the worrying thing. China's share of manufacturing is high for a single country but its supply and processing/distribution of raw materials is even higher.
Anyway, I don't have problems with China manufacturing stuff. The better way of putting is, as BST says, is a worrying lack of manufactuing capabilities/capacity with us.
Yep, agree with that.
The interdependency on factory to factory is quite incredible, and supply chains are nothing like they used to be. Raw materials, as you point out, is centred in countries like China. Just about all the plastics we use in our factories originate in China, and issues there, such as long lead times, cause a ripple effect everywhere.
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SM.
I am perfectly happy to accept that it may be impossible for Western European countries to source enough masks for the population at large. Securing maybe 50million a day when we don't have indigenous manufacturers is a hell of an ask. What I'm talking about is treating people with honesty, not the, frankly, devious guidance that came out last night.
It sounds from your article as though they have been more open about the problem in Germany:
"A mask requirement was not seriously considered during a video conference between Chancellor Angela Merkel, several government ministers and Germany’s state governors either. The main argument was not that it wouldn’t make any sense, but that it wouldn't be possible because of the sheer lack of masks.
"They argued that a requirement forcing people to wear masks could not be implemented because the government hasn’t managed to procure sufficient face-coverings. If 80 million Germans were required to wear masks, there wouldn’t be enough for those who need them the most: doctors, nurses and the staff in nursing homes. During the chancellor’s meeting, some cited the example of South Korea, where electronics manufacturer Samsung provides each of its employees with two masks a day. This wouldn't be possible in Germany."
My over-riding concern at the moment is that our Govt seems still in the mindset where the most important thing is controlling the media story. It's time they started treating us like adults, instead of spinning every issue.
I wasn't having a pop at any one individual. And I'm sure I would sit more on your side of the fence than our current government.
The point I was making is that, even in our little forum, the opportunity to score political points rather than research and balance the situation we currently find ourselves in is too great for some. Just like Donald Trump we've politicised this battle for our own ends. I'm happy to see the Sir Keir Starmer hasn't gone that way, and offers to help, but that hasn't stopped members of his party.
SM
I agree entirely. Apologies if my response came across as defensive. That wasn't the intention, but re-reading it now, it does read like that.
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It's not solely a UK issue, as much as some want to point the finger at certain ministers, this is a global issue;
Even the Germans, who are treating less patients than we are have their issues;
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/germany-is-failing-in-its-efforts-to-obtain-protective-gear-a-fd08b86c-7b3a-4ac2-b2fe-089f4490679c?fbclid=IwAR1ibnxiwFgldIJKuDrgKbXK_oKY3wncJqoFDHH3hk6EseNAOUACRI1fKJg
And what can we say about the USA??
And just to add by the way, for those who wish to criticise that we aren't engaging with UK manufacturers enough, do you know that over 8,000 companies have responded?
It's no surprise that some of those companies haven't heard back.
The bigger structural problem is our complete reliance on China when it comes to the production of pretty much everything and anything.
Yes but that's far too simple as well. I work for a global manufacturer, we have 72 factories in about 30 countries, give or take. All our Chinese factories are up and running, its those in Eastern Europe and India that are causing the big issues.
Granted. But how many of those factories rely on China for their supply chains? Its supply chain dependence that is the worrying thing. China's share of manufacturing is high for a single country but its supply and processing/distribution of raw materials is even higher.
Anyway, I don't have problems with China manufacturing stuff. The better way of putting is, as BST says, is a worrying lack of manufactuing capabilities/capacity with us.
Yep, agree with that.
The interdependency on factory to factory is quite incredible, and supply chains are nothing like they used to be. Raw materials, as you point out, is centred in countries like China. Just about all the plastics we use in our factories originate in China, and issues there, such as long lead times, cause a ripple effect everywhere.
Absolutely.
I posted on here a few weeks ago about being at a conference more than 15 years back, at which the keynote address was from a researcher in the US Dept of Homeland Security who said his job was to plead with decision makers to think about the vulnerability of systems to shocks and the way in which the final outcome can be grossly disproportional to initial damage. In my area of structural engineering, we've known for decades that a small amount of damage can lead to the entire collapse of a badly-designed building and we are required to build in redundancy so that there is capacity to survive damage. The best example of this is the World Trade Center towers. It is astonishing that they survived for so long after taking so much damage from the aircraft strikes. They eventually came down because of the combination of that damage and the weakening of the rest of the structure because of the fires, but at least by that time the majority of the people in those towers and the ones adjacent had been evacuated.
The guy at the conference used a term I'd never heard before: Cascading Failure. He gave several examples of how vulnerable systems can be if you take all the fat out and run it as an uber-efficient process. Fine when it works. Potential for catastrophic knock-on effects when it doesn't.
I think there needs to be a long-hard look at whether the pared-down, dispersed JIT model is suitable for a world where the consequences of cascading failure are only going to get more severe.
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Mix into it all the reports that the Military called in to help are basically saying the Nhs logistics network is not fit for purpose and are asking for a bigger say in sorting it out. when you think they are pretty expert at planning and logistics it would probably make sense
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Mix into it all the reports that the Military called in to help are basically saying the Nhs logistics network is not fit for purpose and are asking for a bigger say in sorting it out. when you think they are pretty expert at planning and logistics it would probably make sense
In fairness the NHS doesn't have to deal with the issues it has now that often and we should accept in some ways that there will always be issues when unexpected major events such as this happen.
Add to that a point a colleague of mine made today - people will make mistakes, we too often slaughter any little mistake made, that is the modern way. Should we? Perhaps not and we've all been guilty of it.
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It’s not making mistakes that annoys people, it’s how those mistakes are dealt with which is more of an issue.
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It’s not making mistakes that annoys people, it’s how those mistakes are dealt with which is more of an issue.
That's precisely it IDM.
I went into this very much with the attitude of "Let's trust the Govt to get on with this professionally and not look to pick fights."
The problem is that requires Govt to be open and honest. And instead, there has been a series of demonstrable lies and deceptions from them, in particular from Hancock.
He lied on the subject of liaising with supermarkets over food deliveries to the vulnerable.
He lied over setting a 25,000 test per day target.
He and several others appear very likley to have been lying for a long time about the pan-Europe procurement scheme.
And then there's the biggest one of all. The apparent fact that the Govt was planning a "mitigation and go for HI" approach up until mid-March, without telling us. That is utterly outrageous, and I lost any assumption of giving them the benefit of the doubt at that point. If they were seriously prepared to risk a strategy where any amateur could see that we risked a total breakdown of the health system for weeks and deaths measured in the hundreds of thousands, their every step now needs watching with an assumption that they are wrong unless demonstrably right.
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I agree with SM's point about politicisation - and would then refer him back to the OP of this thread and the attempt to troll, bait and blame shift. No attempt to give an insight into the problem or a solution - just blame anyone except the government for it.
The problem with PPE supply now is basically 'you wouldn't start from here'. Back in February/March we were constantly told there was plenty of PPE from the Brexit stockpile. Now it seems there wasn't. Nor was there a plan to provide more when this stockpile ran low.
Despite the myths we didn't win WW1 or WW2 by singing 10 German Bombers. The whole economy was put on a war footing to provide the equipment/provisions/food the country required (alongside sourcing as much as possible from elsewhere).
The government TOLD which companies to produce what they required. They didn't wait for the market to come to them, relied on grannies knitting socks (though they were surely welcome) or scrambled through the phone book for every decreasing supplies. They worked out what was required and got factories making it asap.
Or in both wars, they did once they had got rid of the useless leader and replaced them with an organised one.
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Despite the myths we didn't win WW1 or WW2 by singing 10 German Bombers. The whole economy was put on a war footing to provide the equipment/provisions/food the country required (alongside sourcing as much as possible from elsewhere).
This. Precisely.
The first two years of WWI were a disaster, with provision of weapons and munitions left to the private sector and targets regularly missed. When the palace coup toppled Asquith, Lloyd George set about effectively nationalising the process and running it as a command economy from Whitehall.
In WWII, with that lesson learned, pretty much the whole economy was run from Whitehall. Everything from train timetables to Spitfire numbers to what food to deliver where and when.
Some enemies are so dangerous, you have to make these sort of changes to how you run the country. I'm not sending that this has been done in this crisis.
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I agree with SM's point about politicisation - and would then refer him back to the OP of this thread and the attempt to troll, bait and blame shift. No attempt to give an insight into the problem or a solution - just blame anyone except the government for it.
The problem with PPE supply now is basically 'you wouldn't start from here'. Back in February/March we were constantly told there was plenty of PPE from the Brexit stockpile. Now it seems there wasn't. Nor was there a plan to provide more when this stockpile ran low.
Despite the myths we didn't win WW1 or WW2 by singing 10 German Bombers. The whole economy was put on a war footing to provide the equipment/provisions/food the country required (alongside sourcing as much as possible from elsewhere).
The government TOLD which companies to produce what they required. They didn't wait for the market to come to them, relied on grannies knitting socks (though they were surely welcome) or scrambled through the phone book for every decreasing supplies. They worked out what was required and got factories making it asap.
Or in both wars, they did once they had got rid of the useless leader and replaced them with an organised one.
Attempt to Troll,Bit and Blameshift! Thus spake to the great Wiltsshifto mind reader extraordinary!
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As IDM's comment directly following your first comment asks 'what your point' well what was it?
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As IDM's comment directly following your first comment asks 'what your point' well what was it?
I think it's come out in the thread Sydders although we have a National health Service it's difunctional and very disjointed due to it's current structure.
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That sort of sounds like you're agreeing with the good guys Sprot?
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That sort of sounds like you're agreeing with the good guys Sprot?
Must be Cabin fever!
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This is a disgrace from our Government
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-firms-ask-government-do-you-want-our-ppe-or-not-11981025