Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: phil old leake on June 08, 2020, 01:28:54 pm
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By all means protest and say your piece about any subject.
That is the right of every man woman and child in the United Kingdom
These protesters who are causing damage and wrecking property need to be prosecuted. There is no excuse for it. NO excuse
Trying to burn the Union Jack at the cenotaph is as abhorrent to me as the student who thought it was hilarious to urinate on a memorial a while ago
Why are people not appalled by this behaviour.
Any cause will do
A lot of these idiots will have been the ones complaining (and rightly so) about others not social isolating
Suddenly it’s ok to mix
Please tell me I’m not the only one upset by all of this
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By all means protest and say your piece about any subject.
That is the right of every man woman and child in the United Kingdom
These protesters who are causing damage and wrecking property need to be prosecuted. There is no excuse for it. NO excuse
Trying to burn the Union Jack at the cenotaph is as abhorrent to me as the student who thought it was hilarious to urinate on a memorial a while ago
Why are people not appalled by this behaviour.
Any cause will do
A lot of these idiots will have been the ones complaining (and rightly so) about others not social isolating
Suddenly it’s ok to mix
Please tell me I’m not the only one upset by all of this
David Gilmour from Pink Floyd, his Son got 16 Months jail for swinging from the union jack at the Cenotaph, in the interests of fairness I expect yesterdays idiot will also get a custodial sentence for trying to burn the same flag at the cenotaph
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I really hope they do
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I don't really care about a bit of paint on the Churchill statue. Guy was a literal white supremacist, the message is clear, the paint will wash off. But burning the Union Jack on the cenotaph is as f**king stupid as it gets. What a way to muddy your point while also disrespecting the millions of BAME soldiers who fought. They already don't get enough credit as it is.
Idiocy, likely done in order to go viral.
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Idiots hijacking a just-cause protest always spoil it for the rest.
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I don't particularly have a problem with people wanting to remove a statue of a slave trader. It shouldn't have still been in place in this day and age.
Puliing it down in an act of vandalism doesn't sit well but given the circumstances I think we can turn a blind eye. Personally I think the statue should be retrieved from the Dock and put in an exhibition about the slave trade in a Bristol museum.
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If the authorities in Bristol were to decide today which person would be suitable for a statue, would they choose this one, irrespective of the protests.?
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I don't particularly have a problem with people wanting to remove a statue of a slave trader. It shouldn't have still been in place in this day and age.
Puliing it down in an act of vandalism doesn't sit well but given the circumstances I think we can turn a blind eye. Personally I think the statue should be retrieved from the Dock and put in an exhibition about the slave trade in a Bristol museum.
Agreed. Liverpool was a massive centre of the slave trade, but if you go there you won't find statues to any of the people involved. What you will find is an incredibly moving section of the Maritime Museum devoted to the horrors of the slave trade. It is right to preserve and remember the darker parts of our history, but it's not right to glorify it - which erecting a statue to someone heavily involved in such an atrocious trade is.
As to comments about the protesters harming their cause, I think people will find that it's members of extreme organisations that both cause and incite it rather than the protesters themselves, though it is the latter that will get the blame no doubt!
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I agree that the statue should maybe have come down but agreeing to turn a blind eye to such wanton vandalism isn’t right under any circumstances
It’s not about a £5 bit of damage by some silly kids. If you let that go where do you draw the line
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I wonder what would have happened had one of those ropes got tangled round someone’s leg and the person had gone into the water with the statue.
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There would have been protests about the police not diving in to save them!
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The d**khead burning the flag has shown so much disrespect to all races, I really hope he is named and shamed (there’s enough photos of him) and has the book thrown at him. Acts such as this lose so much credibility to genuine causes - that said the lack of social distancing was disgraceful. Bearing in mind that BAME are a more at risk group shows a lack of respect for their own families
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I wonder what would have happened had one of those ropes got tangled round someone’s leg and the person had gone into the water with the statue.
Were there any ropes around the statue when it was dumped/ceremonially thrown in the water?
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I wonder what would have happened had one of those ropes got tangled round someone’s leg and the person had gone into the water with the statue.
Were there any ropes around the statue when it was dumped/ceremonially thrown in the water?
Yes.
They were dangling off it.
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By all means protest and say your piece about any subject.
That is the right of every man woman and child in the United Kingdom
These protesters who are causing damage and wrecking property need to be prosecuted. There is no excuse for it. NO excuse
Trying to burn the Union Jack at the cenotaph is as abhorrent to me as the student who thought it was hilarious to urinate on a memorial a while ago
Why are people not appalled by this behaviour.
Any cause will do
A lot of these idiots will have been the ones complaining (and rightly so) about others not social isolating
Suddenly it’s ok to mix
Please tell me I’m not the only one upset by all of this
This is honestly the first I have heard about this - and from what you are saying you are right to be upset.
Imho there is a huge difference between that - which is just a pure act of spontaneous vandalism and nothing to do with BLM or racism in any form - and the tearing down of the Colston statue which has been a source of controversy for years/decades in Bristol and was clearly planned to remove it as part of the demonstration yesterday.
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I wonder what would have happened had one of those ropes got tangled round someone’s leg and the person had gone into the water with the statue.
Were there any ropes around the statue when it was dumped/ceremonially thrown in the water?
Yes.
They were dangling off it.
That's surprising, costs a lot for a good piece of rope? Maybe they were meant to represent the shackles the slaves might have had on when they were thrown overboard from his slave ships?
I see now what's happened. I hadn't actually realised until I went to check just now about the ropes WHERE they had actually thrown him in the harbour.
Where the statue was is only about 20 yards from the waterside. I thought they had rolled him there and thrown him in.
But actually they haven't. They have rolled him about 400 yards down the harbourside and thrown him in near Pero's Bridge. Which is the only monument in Bristol that is named after a slave.
Looks from this photo that the ropes are being used to guide him down in the water, it seems to be pulleyed around the barrier - but could be just the photo angle?
Thanks hound - I missed that - makes it even more symbolic
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/08/boris-johnson-colston-statue
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I can't all worked up about the Union Flag being damaged when we have an idiot at the helm detemined to drive a wedge between the countries it represents.
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Explain please
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Explain please
It's just a flag Phil, people will wrap themselves in it and claim all sorts of things the real damage is being done by the clown/s running the country taking us out of the EU with all the fiscal damage and associated reduction on food standards, workers and human rights and a lowering lowering of living standards across the country (except of course for a bunch at the top) Due to this Scotland wants another vote to determine it's independence from England and I support its right to do that and the only thing standing in its way is the refusal of this government to allow a vote. I would much rather see a voluntary united kingdom but Scotland given the choice between England and the EU it would be mad to choose England with these selfish dishonest corrupt unprincipled bas**rds at the helm. Hope that clears it up Phil.
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Explain please
It's just a flag Phil, people will wrap themselves in it and claim all sorts of things the real damage is being done by the clown/s running the country taking us out of the EU with all the fiscal damage and associated reduction on food standards, workers and human rights and a lowering lowering of living standards across the country (except of course for a bunch at the top) Due to this Scotland wants another vote to determine it's independence from England and I support its right to do that and the only thing standing in its way is the refusal of this government to allow a vote. I would much rather see a voluntary united kingdom but Scotland given the choice between England and the EU it would be mad to choose England with these selfish dishonest corrupt unprincipled bas**rds at the helm. Hope that clears it up Phil.
He's taking us out of the EU because the people of this country have mandated him to do so. Twice.
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Wrong SS we are already out, the only thing thing left is to work out how big the bill is going to be, I hope those that voted to leave are ready to help those less well off that will suffer the most.
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Sydney Rover do you live on these shores ?
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It is just a flag !!
Wrong.....
Also it was on the National Cenotaph symbolically representing fallen servicemen.
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This is starting to sound like all the threads that led up to the uk leaving. All the doom and gloom about the stock market crashing and no one investing
I think in reality very soon after we got it finalised the FTSE went up
All the Remain MPs spouting negativity with no basis
It was the same with the outers telling us how good it would be again with no basis
Everyone chucking figures and facts about
To be fair no matter which way you voted the referendum was the referendum and all the complications came from the power people not accepting the vote and causing a lack of confidence in the UK
I don’t know how it’s going to end up and neither does anyone else.
With regard to Scotland N Sturgeon has just found a way of pushing for a new referendum which is her role as head of the SNP
She’s not complaining about Scotland being supported by the cash of the UK central government
I don’t want the UK to break Up and can’t see Scotland getting another vote
The SNP are strong in Scotland which has taken the legs of the Labour Party
The conservatives are highly unlikely to grant another vote in the near future
Back to the subject of the flag and damage being caused. Burning the union flag has nothing to do with supporting”black lives matter“ it’s about being using it as a platform for anti societal behaviour
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100% hound it’s was a sign of total disregard for all the servicemen that have served this country not only the ones that have given their lives or been injured
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Was it the same flag that was used when we Invaded Iraq?
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Absolutely
The relevance of that comment being
I take it you have total disregard for all the serviceman that fought in Iraq
Whether it was right or wrong to go in there is nothing to do with showing disrespect for people that have served this country
It is the same flag at the Falklands and everywhere else our troops enter
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Absolutely
The relevance of that comment being
I take it you have total disregard for all the serviceman that fought in Iraq
Whether it was right or wrong to go in there is nothing to do with showing disrespect for people that have served this country
It is the same flag at the Falklands and everywhere else our troops enter
You are conflating two issues to support your argument Phil
Of the current 200 nations in the world, the British have invaded all but 22 of them. The lucky 22 include Sweden, Luxembourg, Mongolia, Bolivia, and Belarus. The full analysis is available in Laycock’s book, All the Countries We’ve Ever Invaded.
https://kottke.org/12/11/britain-has-invaded-all-but-22-countries#:~:text=Of%20the%20current%20200%20nations,Countries%20We've%20Ever%20Invaded.
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How many countries did Italy invade? Even Mussolini had a go at recreating part of the Roman Empire.
How was the Russia state and USSR created?
Spain had a far worse record than us in South America than we had in North America.
Portugal,Germany,France,Holland and Belgium all had colonies Sydney.
It was what happened in those times.
It always seems to be us that gets singled out. We were also the major force in trying to effectively stop the slave trade earlier than most.
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Idler, I was showing that if you wrap yourself in the flag for glory then you have to accept all the other occasions where the flag was used.
I don't actually see a lot of respect being shown to the flag when it's used on mugs, teatowels, underwear, shopping bags. I hope the buyers of these items dispose of them respectfully.
and this
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BELLA-BRITAIN-UNION-JACK-FLAG-DESIGN-MODERN-FLOOR-RUG-150x220cm-NEW/222575401169?hash=item33d28718d1:g:Vz4AAOSwEUVZYc7U
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
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About flags - IMHO there is a big difference between using the flag design on mugs etc as souvenirs or a positive association, and abusing it such as burning, which has a much more symbolic negative meaning.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8
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Idler, I was showing that if you wrap yourself in the flag for glory then you have to accept all the other occasions where the flag was used.
I don't actually see a lot of respect being shown to the flag when it's used on mugs, teatowels, underwear, shopping bags. I hope the buyers of these items dispose of them respectfully.
and this
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BELLA-BRITAIN-UNION-JACK-FLAG-DESIGN-MODERN-FLOOR-RUG-150x220cm-NEW/222575401169?hash=item33d28718d1:g:Vz4AAOSwEUVZYc7U
Sydney, I don't wrap myself in the Union Jack for glory. I regard as a symbol of the country that I love and was born in. I'm proud when it is hoisted high at the Olympics. It's reassuring when you see the flag abroad when used in the right way that you have something in common with others while far from home.
I disregard a lot of the tat that uses the symbol the same with the flag of St. George.
That's my opinion you are welcome to yours. I'm fed up of people having digs about what happened in the past and laying guilt on generations that had nothing to do with it.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
You're absolutely right that we should not feel guilty for the actions of our ancestors, there is no purpose to it. However it is vitally important, in a progressive society, that we recognise not only the things we did well but also the things we did very badly indeed, some of which were shameful - otherwise how do we learn and progress without making the same mistakes again; and thus, as you say, taking responsibility for our own actions or the actions of others to which we approve.
So, whilst we shouldn't feel guilty we certainly should be ashamed of some of the things our ancestors did.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-colonial-shame-slave-owners-given-huge-payouts-after-abolition-8508358.html?fbclid=IwAR235hSKbMCV57JeO7q_gtfYwp0rT_Mt0dC0gSNWabf6nJx0DghLBCm4udc
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I don't have a problem with any of the views expressed about the flag, I do object when people conflate views to promote their argument, this maybe what they think but is it what I said?
I am more in line with Kato's response unless you/I learn from mistakes you don't grow as a person or a country and have shown some different ways people see the flag.
We/I don't know how the person/s that attempted to burn the flag felt or their reasons, if they feel disenfranchised from a lifetime of racisim and abuse then I could understand their position just look at the petty crap that goes on here.
I am not going to get upset about it, I'm more concerned about people than symbolism.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
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Billy stop apologising for being white and British, if you feel the need do it for yourself, and stop imposing your thoughts on others about the way to live their lives, You have no right to, you don't even know the majority of people who Post on here, but jump to conclusions and like to play god.
I have no doubt you are a decent lad, and would be better for knowing, but some times you come over as a bully and a knob.
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Now you've finished that personal attack Selby, which part of the logic of my post did you object to?
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If we are going to hate everyone that has done bad in their history What shall we do about all the African nations that throughout history have enslaved each other. Invaded other African nations for greed. Sold captives to white invaders and money makers for profit and power
History is history and should not be forgotten. The best way to educate people is to be truthful and not selective about what we want to criticise
Educate with the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts
There will be very few if any nations in the world that have not tried to expand by taking over neighbours
Maybe we should all hate Scandinavians who spread their wings and conquered or the Greeks and Romans the list goes on and on
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Let the Scandinavians off .... just ... as without them we wouldnt have such a great Forum name and Club Badge of course
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No-one is talking about "hating" anyone.
It is simply about being aware of your history.
If you take all the benefits of what your forefathers did, while ignoring the responsibilities, you are a hypocrite. Simple logic.
I don't question that many countries and many people have done evil things. The issue is that we have a responsibility to face up to that, especially where the consequences are still raw today.
That is the only point I'm making. Selby is perfectly at liberty to go unhinged at that point and accuse me of hating white people and being a knob.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
I can't answer for Ldr, nor would I try; but for my part BST it is clear I cannot be responsible for the crimes of the past; nor can I avoid the benefit of the material wealth I and the country enjoy.
What I can do however is to feel ashamed of those crimes and do whatever I can not to be part of making the same, or similar, crimes again. I have friends in Germany who feel exactly the same about the atrocities committed during WW2 - they are not responsible for them, but they do feel ashamed that they happened in the name of their country and are determines such will never happen again. An attitude that would benefit the world if more people were to adopt it.
Did you or anyone else watch the excellent but dark Sitting in Limbo drama on BBC last night? It was impossible to watch without understanding the abhorrent treatment the Windrush generation were subject to without feeling ashamed of how they were treated, and, particularly how Amber Rudd and Teresa May behaved 'in our name'! How those two people, (I use that last word lightly), are still in politics and how they are revered by some people is beyond me - shameful beyond belief!
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
I can't answer for Ldr, nor would I try; but for my part BST it is clear I cannot be responsible for the crimes of the past; nor can I avoid the benefit of the material wealth I and the country enjoy.
What I can do however is to feel ashamed of those crimes and do whatever I can not to be part of making the same, or similar, crimes again. I have friends in Germany who feel exactly the same about the atrocities committed during WW2 - they are not responsible for them, but they do feel ashamed that they happened in the name of their country and are determines such will never happen again. An attitude that would benefit the world if more people were to adopt it.
Did you or anyone else watch the excellent but dark Sitting in Limbo drama on BBC last night? It was impossible to watch without understanding the abhorrent treatment the Windrush generation were subject to without feeling ashamed of how they were treated, and, particularly how Amber Rudd and Teresa May behaved 'in our name'! How those two people, (I use that last word lightly), are still in politics and how they are revered by some people is beyond me - shameful beyond belief!
Spot on NNK
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I have only been able to read about the scandalous windrush and find it difficult to believe that it could have ever happened in a modern society.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
I can't answer for Ldr, nor would I try; but for my part BST it is clear I cannot be responsible for the crimes of the past; nor can I avoid the benefit of the material wealth I and the country enjoy.
What I can do however is to feel ashamed of those crimes and do whatever I can not to be part of making the same, or similar, crimes again. I have friends in Germany who feel exactly the same about the atrocities committed during WW2 - they are not responsible for them, but they do feel ashamed that they happened in the name of their country and are determines such will never happen again. An attitude that would benefit the world if more people were to adopt it.
Did you or anyone else watch the excellent but dark Sitting in Limbo drama on BBC last night? It was impossible to watch without understanding the abhorrent treatment the Windrush generation were subject to without feeling ashamed of how they were treated, and, particularly how Amber Rudd and Teresa May behaved 'in our name'! How those two people, (I use that last word lightly), are still in politics and how they are revered by some people is beyond me - shameful beyond belief!
NNK.
That is an excellent post. You are right of course. We can't be held responsible for what our forefathers did. But equally, we can't simply shrug it off and say it is nothing to do with us. We DO have a responsibility to make some atonement for those crimes in how we act today. And as you say, the Windrush scandal shows how far we have to go on that, and how easy it is for politicians to play to the mob and do the precise opposite of what morally they should be doing.
For my part, I'd certainly like to see this era address the issue of how we have historically glorified the elite who profited from slavery. The pulling down of that statue in Bristol was symbolic in bringing the issue into our living rooms. Personally I'd like democracy to take over now. Let's have democratic votes all over the country on whether we tear down all these statues.
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Alternatively leave the statues up but have an explanation of how times have changed and they are no longer revered as they once were.
Would you pull down a statue of Caligula or Nero in Italy?
We can't change history but we can learn from it.
Most of my ancestors going back a hundred years or two were agricultural labourers so did not benefit from the slave trade.
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Idler, if the economy improved, surely so would lives of ordinary people, including agricultural labourers. The slave trade would have had a big impact on growing the economy, there must be an indirect link for all of society.
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Idler.
I do think there is a qualitative difference between how we should address the crimes of Nero and the crimes of slave traders.
In that the consequences of the latter are unquestionably still very much active in society today. Whereas you have a much harder time drawing a clear thread from Caligula to today's socio-economic problems.
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Idler, if the economy improved, surely so would lives of ordinary people, including agricultural labourers. The slave trade would have had a big impact on growing the economy, there must be an indirect link for all of society.
Bang on.
Those of us who are not from the upper classes were not directly responsible for instigating the crimes of the slave trade[1]. They were planned and conducted by a different stratum of society.
But there's no question that we benefited materially from the money and the trade that the slavery system brought into the country.
[1] This is why I draw a distinction between the generic "responsibility" of our entire UK society for the slave trade, and the responsibility of the entire German people for the Holocaust. The former was about decisions taken by a small group of people without the support of a mass democratic system. In the case of the latter, the German people en masse had enabled Hitler, knowing precisely what kind of man he was.
The former crime was the outcome of a patrician state where only a tiny percentage had any input into national policy. The latter was enabled by a mass democracy. That means the German people have a much heavier burden of responsibility.
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It's difficult isn't it? Different times and all these sort of things seem different now. I guess there is a point that a statue shouldn't always stay in place and really there should be a point where we think about whether they should remain.
The thing with history is that the perception of history will change over time. I wonder what our kids, grandkids etc will think of us burning fossil fuels, coal, use of oil etc? They may well think the whole idea of it was bonkers, yet 50 years ago it was barely questioned in many cases. Will social media be seen as a positive or negative and what will it fuel over the coming years (hate, civil war, mental health issues who knows?) Very difficult to see these things at the time it is happening isn't it?
The reality is that to some the reality of slave trade was accepted and yielded the development required at the time. I would (referring to my previous point) say the same for the use of coal. Many round here were miners including many of my family. I as a younger person find the thought of us sending people (and in the past children) down mines pretty grim. Yet historically, it was necessary to give us the development we have today. We shouldn't forget that, but equally we shouldn't stop striving to have a future that pays much, much more attention to these things.
Indeed, I wonder how much many of us think about the design and production of the clothes that we wear and impact on those actually undertaking that work. The jacket I have on was made in Pakistan, my phone a Chinese brand made in China, my shoes made in China, I still have my sports watch on, American but made in Taiwan... We trust the companies we purchase these goods from are ethical and tell us the full truth, are they and should we just accept it? What of the effect our cars, phones, planes, computers etc are having on the future? Is that trade off acceptable and what will future generations make of that and us?
We also have this moral dilemma with wars. The Iraq and Syria wars classic examples. The human right travesty in those countries shouldn't ever be accepted, yet those wars are seen as imoral and illegal to many. Is it perhaps the case that the wars were both right and wrong in different ways? What would modern society have done and made of the acts of Germany in the 30s and 40s, would we have questioned military action much more? Who knows.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!
I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.
I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.
That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.
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The best thing some people could do is go to some of the countries the downtrodden come from and ask some of their rich and elite citizens in those countries if they will swop their life for your white comfortable lifestyle, and spread a bit of their wealth about among their fellow citizens, in some cases who are still in a state of slavery.
I think we all know the answer would resemble something on the lines of sex and travel.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8
Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8
Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.
You're just as free to quote a right-wing d**khead who's about as funny as severe toothache too.
But no, your reaction is to just to throw insults about. Typical that.
The only thing we can deduce from that is that you have no response to what he says. At all.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8
Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.
You're just as free to quote a right-wing d**khead who's about as funny as severe toothache too.
But no, your reaction is to just to throw insults about. Typical that.
The only thing we can deduce from that is that you have no response to what he says. At all.
Why should I respond to someone like him who's completely irrelevant to me?
The reason why modern day comedians are so f*cking rubbish is that all they can do is take the p*ss out of everything they disagree with, and they try to pass that off as humour.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!
I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.
I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.
That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.
You might well have worked hard for what you have. But if you happened to be descended from those slaves who were brought over here all those years ago rather than the people who owned them, it's a safe bet that you wouldn't have the same standard of living even if you'd worked twice as hard. That's the problem.
It's an uncomfortable thing to face up to, but if the price for true equality is that a few white people have to feel a bit uncomfortable about their history, then that's a small price to pay.
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Why should I respond to someone like him who's completely irrelevant to me?
The reason why modern day comedians are so f*cking rubbish is that all they can do is take the p*ss out of everything they disagree with, and they try to pass that off as humour.
Modern comedians? Bill Hicks died in 1994!
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!
I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.
I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.
That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.
You might well have worked hard for what you have. But if you happened to be descended from those slaves who were brought over here all those years ago rather than the people who owned them, it's a safe bet that you wouldn't have the same standard of living even if you'd worked twice as hard. That's the problem.
It's an uncomfortable thing to face up to, but if the price for true equality is that a few white people have to feel a bit uncomfortable about their history, then that's a small price to pay.
But that wasn't the point BST was making, and I've never suggested that I don't feel uncomfortable about it. What I countered was that my comfortable living is derived from the crimes of our forefathers and that I should feel responsible, if not I should give up some of the material wealth that was bequeathed to me. Really?
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I didn't read it as that, SM. I read it as him putting an unfair proposition to you to illustrate the unfair proposition that millions of people have to deal with every day, just because of their skin.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Not particularly aimed at you Ldr but just a general thought.
I bet you feel proud and patriotic when the country has a national celebration or a sports team/person does well. I do.
If you can feel proud at the actions of others who make you then why shouldn't you feel shame at other actions that are shameful?
Also I can't but chuckle at people from Doncaster talking about respecting/disrespecting the military and what our forces have done in the past.
There were thousands of British casualties at Waterloo and the other major Napoleonic battles. But if you go there today you won't find any graves for them.
The reason you wont find any graves is that several years after their bodies were buried in mass graves, their remains were dug-up, shipped to Doncaster, and ground-down to make bone fertiliser.
How times change. But sometimes its good to look back at the symbols of the past and present and realise how and why they have changed.
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I struggle with the concept that we should feel guilty for actions of others. Yes this country has done bad things in the past. Why should I as an individual feel guilt though over actions I had not part in? Every adult can only be responsible for their own actions
Your and my comfortable standards of living are at least in part built on the crimes that our forefathers committed.
If you don't want to be responsible for those crimes, maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of the material wealth they bequeathed you?
That's some very broad brush you've got there BST!
I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery, one obviously impacting on the masses with jobs, housing, welfare and education whereas the other put money into a select few pockets.
I'd be happy to consider my comfortable living was more about my work ethic and the choices I've made along the way from humble beginnings than was ever about some slave trader.
That doesn't mean I don't feel some angst, but I'm buggered if I'm going to feel responsible for those crimes as you say, and in no part do I feel that my comfortable living is due to crimes committed by my forefathers.
SM.
1) I would say this country's material wealth is more about the Industrial revolution than was ever about slavery.
The first stage of the Industrial Revolution was concerned with the automation of the textile making process. Predominantly cotton. Where do you think the cotton came from? It was the cheap and plentiful source form the slave plantations of the south east of the USA that facilitated the huge boom in the textiles industry in the UK that drove the need for mechanisation.
2) The slave trade put money into a select few pockets.
Where do you think it went then? You don't think they kept it in socks under the bed do you? It went into employing servants and cooks and nannies and teachers and stonemasons and tailors and farmers and coachmen and jewellers and artists and a huge range of other services. And it went into investment in the burgeoning companies of the Industrial Revolution. That money was part of what underpinned the socio-economic development of the country.
I maintain that the relatively strong economic position that we were all born into is built, in part, on the slave trade. Yes you and I might well have taken advantage of that position and used our "work ethic" to get on, but ignoring the springboard we were given by history is being wilfully blind.
I'm not asking you to give up your material wealth [1]. I'm asking people to acknowledge where their advantages came from and to reflect on that in how they respond to the current issue.
[1] Actually, I AM. I do think we have a moral responsibility to consider whether increased taxes on us, wealthy, white successes to fund socio-economic development of regions affected by what we have done historically should be on the agenda.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKCeESg9Ev8
Typical that. Highlighting a left wing d*ckhead who's about as funny as a severe toothache.
You're just as free to quote a right-wing d**khead who's about as funny as severe toothache too.
But no, your reaction is to just to throw insults about. Typical that.
The only thing we can deduce from that is that you have no response to what he says. At all.
Why should I respond to someone like him who's completely irrelevant to me?
The reason why modern day comedians are so f*cking rubbish is that all they can do is take the p*ss out of everything they disagree with, and they try to pass that off as humour.
And yet you did respond. And my post wasn't even directed at you so no response from you was expected.
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A little bit about the Bristol statue incident.
Many have said it is wrong that it was done in this way, people should have used the democratic system to deal with it and get the Council to remove it. This has been going on for years and always gets stuck, not least due to not wanting to upset certain people with influence in Bristol as well as a significant part of the electorate there who didn't want it removed. The statue was in the most prime place in the centre of Bristol. Sometimes direct action cuts through the crap. Given the George Floyd incident, hardly anyone is now saying it shouldn't have gone. So, job done. FWIW, I think it should stay in the docks.
There's a background in Bristol of locals not acknowledging the slave history of the city. And there was the tobacco business, like the cotton industry, made on the backs of slaves. I was shocked at the outrage about 25 years back when a mural in the docks, celebrating the history of the docks, included a tiny part (less than 5% of the mural) relating to the slave trade. Some even denied it happened, though most doubted it was important. An issue well swept under the carpet.
Even now there is a lot of objection to it having been removed. What's interesting is how far back the acceptance of slavery in Bristol goes back.
St. Wulfstan was a social reformer and Bishop of Gloucester partly responsible for ending the slave trade in the 11th Century.
This paints an horrific picture. From The Life of St. Wulfstan, 1066:
"There is a maritime town, called Bristol, which is on the direct route to Ireland, and so suitable for trade with that barbarian land. The inhabitants of this place with other Englishmen often sail to Ireland for the sake of trade. Wulfstan banished from among them a very old custom which had so hardened their hearts that neither the love of God nor the love of King William [the Conqueror] could efface it. For men whom they had purchased from all over England they carried off to Ireland; but first they got the women with child and sent them pregnant to market. You would have seen queues of the wretches of both sexes shackled together and you would have pitied them; those who were beautiful and those who were in the flower of youth were daily prostituted and sold amidst much wailing to the barbarians. Oh execrable crime, wretched dishonor, men who remind us of beasts, to sell into slavery their nearest relative because of their necessities."
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How far back do people want to go with this? The early civilisations who invariably dealt in slaves of all colours no discrimination we've conquered you get those chains on. As someone has already pointed out the black african civilisations were pretty adept at enslaving their neighbours and even participated in bringing in captives for the slave traders of the 16thC onwards they have blood on their hands as well as white people The Romans particularly efficient at it built an Empire on it yet they are revered in civilisations what did the Romans do for us? The Egyptians without the aid of aliens built massive constructions with slave labour should we tear down the pyramids? The middle east civilisations whose sites are classed as world heritage should we follow Isis and blow them all up it just goes on and on. We can't change what has happened be it 10 20 50 100 or 1000s of years ago what is it people actually want is it just all about black people?
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The Egyptians should be bloody ashamed of themselves. Get them pyramids torn down!
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Whilst I understand the link of the slave trade issue to Black Lives Matter, it's far bigger than that. Slavery along with raping and pillaging, invading, killing has been a central part of human history in every part of the world going back pre history. It's how in the main, Lord Bloggs has his land and power and Joe Bloggs doesn't.
And it continues today even in the UK most featured in the world of prostitution, but also in v low paid work like with seasonal farm workers, cleaners, and more subtley in basic wage slavery. All of this is a crime, something perpetuated by the "elite". Whether or not the individuals involved (not me guv!) had it in uppermost in their minds, that statue being rolled into Bristol docks was a small symbolic act against all of that.
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I know where mine came from Billy, My mothers side came from Ireland to the valleys of South Wales for work in the potato famine. When they fell on hard times in the twenties my grandfather who died young due to dust in the mines and his three oldest sons walked from Brynmawr in South Wales to Askern for work because they didn't have enough money for the train fair, while my mother younger sister and mother were sent for when they had the money to travel on the train.
My fathers side were horse traders in Hunslet and fair ground workers who again came to Askern for work in the Mines after my grandfather and my fathers two oldest brothers were killed in the first world war.
Then my father was badly wounded in the second world war, therefore limited to what job he was able to do, although we didn't seem to want for anything it was because my mother and father were thrifty, lived within their means and gave up a lot for my school uniforms and holidays.
I didn't know, like loads of kids of the 40's 50's we were privileged until told so in the last few years by the spoon fed, never wanted for anything, me me me generations of the 70's 80's and onwards.
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Raven.
I agree with you in principle that historical issues have to be left to fade away at some point.
The reason why this one is different is that many countries are still dealing with the direct consequences of the slave trade and they are still very acute.
Do you think there are more black Americans in prison than in Universities because black are genetically predisposed to break the law more than to study?
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Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point
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Selby.
When you were younger, you WERE in the most fortunate few percent of people who have ever lived.
That's not in any way belittling the hardships you and your family faced.
I spent every evening after primary school in my grandparents hovel of a slum house in Denaby, with no hot water, no fridge, no inside toilet, with windows that the winter draft came whistling through. My grandad was knackered from 40-odd years of shift work at Cadeby pit, most of it at the coal face.
But you and I lived in a world where there was a roof over your head. Usually food on the table. A health system. An education system through which people could better themselves. (Generally) peace and stability.
Very, very few people in history have had that. It doesn't belittle how hard you had it to accept the fact that most people, in most places, at most times have had it far harder. It just needs empathy with other people's lot.
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I would encourage anyone seriously interested in the history of slavery, and how interconnected and embeded in British society it was at the time, to browse this database. It details the people who received compensation from the government when slavery was abolished in the British colonies:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/legacies/
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Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point
By that I'm referring to people tied to having to work in jobs to subsist, there being no actual or perceived alternative for them to do better. The differential between low and high paid is a crime, and is ever growing. That's a long way from saying everyone has to have the same.
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Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point
By that I'm referring to people tied to having to work in jobs to subsist, there being no actual or perceived alternative for them to do better. The differential between low and high paid is a crime, and is ever growing. That's a long way from saying everyone has to have the same.
That's not slavery, that's capitalism.
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What has happened in this country?
4 far-right, neo-Nazis jailed for membership of a terrorist organisation
Journalist threatened from House of Commons IP address:
https://twitter.com/danohagan/status/1270338850431344642
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As a basis of fact some None white chiefs/ tribes/cultures sold fellow Non whites as slaves and profited from it By selling them to white slavers.
I’ve just had an interesting question put to me whilst discussing the riots And the current situation in England
All the anger is been aimed at white imperialists. Slavery is abhorrent and should be denounced at every opportunity and so should all forms of racism I am in no way advocating anything that supports any kind of racist behaviour
Remembering my opening line
The question put to me was Who should be denounced more. The people that that attacked other villages or areas and rounded up the slaves and sold them or the people that bought them and transported them
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Since time began the victorious enslaved those that they had defeated.
As someone said earlier in the thread, how far back do we need to go before we can feel free of the shame.
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How far back do people want to go with this? The early civilisations who invariably dealt in slaves of all colours no discrimination we've conquered you get those chains on. As someone has already pointed out the black african civilisations were pretty adept at enslaving their neighbours and even participated in bringing in captives for the slave traders of the 16thC onwards they have blood on their hands as well as white people The Romans particularly efficient at it built an Empire on it yet they are revered in civilisations what did the Romans do for us? The Egyptians without the aid of aliens built massive constructions with slave labour should we tear down the pyramids? The middle east civilisations whose sites are classed as world heritage should we follow Isis and blow them all up it just goes on and on. We can't change what has happened be it 10 20 50 100 or 1000s of years ago what is it people actually want is it just all about black people?
Are you still feeling the systemic discrimination/subjugation created by the Roman system? Probably not right, so in answer to your question lets go as far back where history is still having some affect.
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As a basis of fact some None white chiefs/ tribes/cultures sold fellow Non whites as slaves and profited from it By selling them to white slavers.
I’ve just had an interesting question put to me whilst discussing the riots And the current situation in England
All the anger is been aimed at white imperialists. Slavery is abhorrent and should be denounced at every opportunity and so should all forms of racism I am in no way advocating anything that supports any kind of racist behaviour
Remembering my opening line
The question put to me was Who should be denounced more. The people that that attacked other villages or areas and rounded up the slaves and sold them or the people that bought them and transported them
How about denouncing the aspects that still have a historical legacy today. Start there.
You are still conflating racism with slavery. Two different things. Yes, slavery existed internally within Africa but it was the European imperialists who turned into a global industry, of the breadth and magnitude the world had never seen - linked to an economic, social and symbolic system of subjugation. It was this SYSTEM, and not slavery itself that created what we now understand as racism against black people today. Nothing on that order ever resulted out of slavery within Africa.
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And of course, no, we weren't the only country involved in the bestiality of slavery.
This one is from Belgium's past. Tell me this doesn't make your guts knot up when you think about what privileged white Europeans did to cement and extend their privilege.
https://mobile.twitter.com/wingcommander1/status/1270350039081091072
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And of course, no, we weren't the only country involved in the bestiality of slavery.
This one is from Belgium's past. Tell me this doesn't make your guts knot up when you think about what privileged white Europeans did to cement and extend their privilege.
https://mobile.twitter.com/wingcommander1/status/1270350039081091072
I would highly recommend to anyone to read 'King Leopold's Ghost'.
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Raven.
I agree with you in principle that historical issues have to be left to fade away at some point.
The reason why this one is different is that many countries are still dealing with the direct consequences of the slave trade and they are still very acute.
Do you think there are more black Americans in prison than in Universities because black are genetically predisposed to break the law more than to study?
It's a sad indictment when colour deprives someone of advancement in any field and it is perhaps the same indictment that many blacks end up in jail rather than university but commit the crime etc etc also applies to white, hispanics and so on but my point relates to events on this side of the pond surely we can't compare events in the US to here? The swing here seems to be against our "recent" involvement in the slave trade not just racism.
A black female singer on BBC this morning accused anybody of not speaking out against racism as condoning racism bet she doesn't think like that when these same people are buying her records or showing up at her gigs. For me being racist has nothing to do with your colour it's all about what is on your head be you black, white or whatever colour just because you don't speak out in mass protest doesn't mean you condone racism in any form.
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Maybe not but the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
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Since time began the victorious enslaved those that they had defeated.
As someone said earlier in the thread, how far back do we need to go before we can feel free of the shame.
Get over yourself ;) I'm not getting at you there hound, but the comment that gets churned out - and it's a very poor one. It's not about the shame, it's about recognsing what happened, and what is happening, and making changes as far as you can - even if that's simnmply what you say to others or how you vote. In some cases it would be right to take money or property from people who have directly benefitted from crimes such as slavery.
Why do people bang on about "shame" and then usually go on to pretty much ignore or avoid the issue?
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Bristol you write about basic wage slavery
Are you suggesting that there shouldn’t be such a thing and everyone should be on the same wage
If that’s not what you’re suggesting what’s your point
By that I'm referring to people tied to having to work in jobs to subsist, there being no actual or perceived alternative for them to do better. The differential between low and high paid is a crime, and is ever growing. That's a long way from saying everyone has to have the same.
That's not slavery, that's capitalism.
There's a difference? I suppose in the world of Venn Diagrams, Capitalism is largely swallowed up by the Slavery, but then there's other systems that fall into the Slavery circle as well.
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Maybe not but the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Bit deep for me that one Syd
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Maybe not but the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Sydney, you might not be able to do much to change the standards that you walk past but still maintain your own if they are higher.
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Looks like there could be a modern kick back, part of the fund he left is used to fund bursaries for some students, the students union refused to comment when asked about the withdrawal of those bursaries which are being considered.
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Who's that selby, Colston?
There wasn't a university in Bristol when he died?
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Cecil Rhodes at Oxford Wilts.
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Thanks idler, yes been controversial for years that
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I wonder how many, if any students took the moral high ground and turned down the chance to go there under his scheme?
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The Rhodes Trust at Oxford has a value of around £200m. They give out about £10m per year in bursaries and other support.
Oxford University sits on an endowment of £6.1bn. I'm sure they could cover the shortfall if they wished.
Because otherwise, we'd be accepting that the only way that poor but brilliant students could afford an Oxford education in the 21st century would be to be funded from the proceeds of Victorian era colonial oppression. And I'm sure none of us REALLY wants to live in that country.
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I wonder how many of the protesters at Oxford actually know who Cecil Rhodes was and what he did good or bad. It would be a very interesting poll if taken. I would hazard a guess that not many would be able to give any kind of sensible response
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I think that it was the Dean who was talking at dinner Tim on Radio 2. He said that he discussed the Rhodes issue with Nelson Mandela.
Nelson Mandela said that it was in the past and it wasn't as if he was actually sat facing Rhodes.
He had far more reason to be bitter than the protesters. Most countries in their history that they are uncomfortable with but we should be building a future for everybody. Living in the past won't solve anything.
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Nelson Mandela set up a joint foundation with the Rhodes Trust.
He said he was doing it because, despite their ideological differences, he wanted to set an example in reconciliation and reparation.
What exactly has Oxord University done towards reconciliation and reparation?
https://www.mandelarhodes.org/about/story/
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Copied from someone else but worth a read....... if only for balance
There are many misconceptions around the slave trade debate and with the generation of inept liberal appeasers, I thought it best to point out just a few small details that often get overlooked or swept under the carpet - to avoid the real agenda of stirring up race baiting arguments, or fueling the activity of the victimisation card. We should probably tackle the most important myth of all - and that's around who actually invented the slave trade industry. It wasn't the white people, as the left 'woke' in society would have you think or believe. It was in fact the AFRICANS themselves who enslaved black people - FACT! It was after that point that sub Saharan AFRICANS then got involved in the trafficking of human lives and then the ARABS followed suit!
The EUROPEANS were not involved in any black slave trading until much later!. Although I fully appreciate that any form of slavery is despicable and immoral, why is the blame community pointing fingers at the white British people, when they themselves were the true perpetrators and instigators of these atrocious acts against human beings? Maybe it's not white guilt or privilege that actually haunts them, but the part their own ancestors played. We are just easy targets to point the finger at - and that includes our nicely lined fat wallets of course!
The next part that the white people played in that appalling moment of history, was how we the white British demanded the abolition of slavery - and we brought that unfortunate episode to an end. In 1833, Britain used 40% of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves within the British empire. That's how racist white British actually were. We then rallied against our allies to follow suit. In 1865, President Lincoln then had Congress pass the 13th Amendment, which ended slavery in the US. That was 32yrs AFTER the British. The debt - that the BRITISH taxpayer took on to pay off all those slave traders - was so huge, it took almost 200yrs to eventually pay off. It was only settled in 2014. That's right, you and I paid to end slavery - as did your parents and their parents before them so you can reject any notion of guilt. Furthermore, we played no part in this trade - never owned a slave or sold a slave, but as mentioned it was US who paid off that debt!
Even today there are many places - like Africa and the Middle East - who have a bustling slave trade. Of course the left and blame community don't want you knowing that - and neither will they point their fingers in that direction. Is it possible that they don't want to expose their own abominable role in this inhumane trade? Or maybe the guilt and pockets don't flow as deep in less civilised countries!
CONCLUSION!
This is to all you apologetic, guilt ridden white appeasers - and those anarchists who seek to create mayhem and chaos just to promote anger and civil disobedience. The Cenotaph, Winston Churchill and the fallen soldier are not just symbols of war. They are tributes to all who stood up and lost their lives in fighting for all of our freedoms - so what gives you the right to desecrate such iconic statues and monuments, that reflect our conflicted history? They were placed there to remind all of us about those who fought against fascists like you who have no respect for humanity! Your misconception that this behaviour can be somehow seen as righteous or justifiable is indefensible - and undeniably wanton vandalism!
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Copied from someone else but worth a read....... if only for balance
There are many misconceptions around the slave trade debate and with the generation of inept liberal appeasers, I thought it best to point out just a few small details that often get overlooked or swept under the carpet - to avoid the real agenda of stirring up race baiting arguments, or fueling the activity of the victimisation card. We should probably tackle the most important myth of all - and that's around who actually invented the slave trade industry. It wasn't the white people, as the left 'woke' in society would have you think or believe. It was in fact the AFRICANS themselves who enslaved black people - FACT! It was after that point that sub Saharan AFRICANS then got involved in the trafficking of human lives and then the ARABS followed suit!
The EUROPEANS were not involved in any black slave trading until much later!. Although I fully appreciate that any form of slavery is despicable and immoral, why is the blame community pointing fingers at the white British people, when they themselves were the true perpetrators and instigators of these atrocious acts against human beings? Maybe it's not white guilt or privilege that actually haunts them, but the part their own ancestors played. We are just easy targets to point the finger at - and that includes our nicely lined fat wallets of course!
The next part that the white people played in that appalling moment of history, was how we the white British demanded the abolition of slavery - and we brought that unfortunate episode to an end. In 1833, Britain used 40% of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves within the British empire. That's how racist white British actually were. We then rallied against our allies to follow suit. In 1865, President Lincoln then had Congress pass the 13th Amendment, which ended slavery in the US. That was 32yrs AFTER the British. The debt - that the BRITISH taxpayer took on to pay off all those slave traders - was so huge, it took almost 200yrs to eventually pay off. It was only settled in 2014. That's right, you and I paid to end slavery - as did your parents and their parents before them so you can reject any notion of guilt. Furthermore, we played no part in this trade - never owned a slave or sold a slave, but as mentioned it was US who paid off that debt!
Even today there are many places - like Africa and the Middle East - who have a bustling slave trade. Of course the left and blame community don't want you knowing that - and neither will they point their fingers in that direction. Is it possible that they don't want to expose their own abominable role in this inhumane trade? Or maybe the guilt and pockets don't flow as deep in less civilised countries!
CONCLUSION!
This is to all you apologetic, guilt ridden white appeasers - and those anarchists who seek to create mayhem and chaos just to promote anger and civil disobedience. The Cenotaph, Winston Churchill and the fallen soldier are not just symbols of war. They are tributes to all who stood up and lost their lives in fighting for all of our freedoms - so what gives you the right to desecrate such iconic statues and monuments, that reflect our conflicted history? They were placed there to remind all of us about those who fought against fascists like you who have no respect for humanity! Your misconception that this behaviour can be somehow seen as righteous or justifiable is indefensible - and undeniably wanton vandalism!
MM, no doubt that that article with open up a can of worms.
Just waiting now for someone to pull it to pieces.
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Some 'interesting' bits of historical research in there MMickey (and I know it isn't yours).
Britain used 40% of its national budget to buy freedom for all slaves
The other day I encouraged people who were interested to look into the actual history of slave ownership, reparation and the compensation paid out too them £20m (£18bn in todays terms) to look at this website and the database. I think I should post it again:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/
Here's a bit of context.
1833 was a critical year for Britons who had invested in the Empire. Thanks to the work of the Legacies of British Slave Ownership team at UCL, we have got to know more about the thousands of British people from nearly all classes, regions, towns and cities, who owned slaves and were paid compensation for their emancipation after the act abolishing slavery was passed in that year. We know that some 40% of GDP was handed over to slave owners while formerly enslaved people received nothing, and that much of the payout was invested in projects like the building of railways and the establishment of banking and insurance firms at home, and in projects like the colonization of South Australia overseas.
Around 3000 people claimed compensation, nearly all UK based or with UK links. At lot of MP's had claims, so effectively the British government compensated itself with taxpayers money.
There were 4 slave owners in Doncaster, 83 in Yorkshire. Please do search the database, it is well worth 5 minutes of your time:
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/search/
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Happy to oblige houd
The true scale of Britain's involvement in the slave trade has been laid bare in documents revealing how the country's wealthiest families received the modern equivalent of billions of pounds in compensation after slavery was abolished.
The previously unseen records show exactly who received what in payouts from the Government when slave ownership was abolished by Britain – much to the potential embarrassment of their descendants. Dr Nick Draper from University College London, who has studied the compensation papers, says as many as one-fifth of wealthy Victorian Britons derived all or part of their fortunes from the slave economy.
As a result, there are now wealthy families all around the UK still indirectly enjoying the proceeds of slavery where it has been passed on to them. Dr Draper said: "There was a feeding frenzy around the compensation." A John Austin, for instance, owned 415 slaves, and got compensation of £20,511, a sum worth nearly £17m today. And there were many who received far more.
Academics from UCL, including Dr Draper, spent three years drawing together 46,000 records of compensation given to British slave-owners into an internet database to be launched for public use on Wednesday. But he emphasised that the claims set to be unveiled were not just from rich families but included many "very ordinary men and women" and covered the entire spectrum of society.
Dr Draper added that the database's findings may have implications for the "reparations debate". Barbados is currently leading the way in calling for reparations from former colonial powers for the injustices suffered by slaves and their families.
Among those revealed to have benefited from slavery are ancestors of the Prime Minister, David Cameron, former minister Douglas Hogg, authors Graham Greene and George Orwell, poet Elizabeth Barrett Browning, and the new chairman of the Arts Council, Peter Bazalgette. Other prominent names which feature in the records include scions of one of the nation's oldest banking families, the Barings, and the second Earl of Harewood, Henry Lascelles, an ancestor of the Queen's cousin. Some families used the money to invest in the railways and other aspects of the industrial revolution; others bought or maintained their country houses, and some used the money for philanthropy. George Orwell's great-grandfather, Charles Blair, received £4,442, equal to £3m today, for the 218 slaves he owned.
The British government paid out £20m to compensate some 3,000 families that owned slaves for the loss of their "property" when slave-ownership was abolished in Britain's colonies in 1833. This figure represented a staggering 40 per cent of the Treasury's annual spending budget and, in today's terms, calculated as wage values, equates to around £16.5bn.
A total of £10m went to slave-owning families in the Caribbean and Africa, while the other half went to absentee owners living in Britain. The biggest single payout went to James Blair (no relation to Orwell), an MP who had homes in Marylebone, central London, and Scotland. He was awarded £83,530, the equivalent of £65m today, for 1,598 slaves he owned on the plantation he had inherited in British Guyana.
But this amount was dwarfed by the amount paid to John Gladstone, the father of 19th-century prime minister William Gladstone. He received £106,769 (modern equivalent £83m) for the 2,508 slaves he owned across nine plantations. His son, who served as prime minister four times during his 60-year career, was heavily involved in his father's claim.
Mr Cameron, too, is revealed to have slave owners in his family background on his father's side. The compensation records show that General Sir James Duff, an army officer and MP for Banffshire in Scotland during the late 1700s, was Mr Cameron's first cousin six times removed. Sir James, who was the son of one of Mr Cameron's great-grand-uncle's, the second Earl of Fife, was awarded £4,101, equal to more than £3m today, to compensate him for the 202 slaves he forfeited on the Grange Sugar Estate in Jamaica.
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Another illustrious political family that it appears still carries the name of a major slave owner is the Hogg dynasty, which includes the former cabinet minister Douglas Hogg. They are the descendants of Charles McGarel, a merchant who made a fortune from slave ownership. Between 1835 and 1837 he received £129,464, about £101m in today's terms, for the 2,489 slaves he owned. McGarel later went on to bring his younger brother-in-law Quintin Hogg into his hugely successful sugar firm, which still used indentured labour on plantations in British Guyana established under slavery. And it was Quintin's descendants that continued to keep the family name in the limelight, with both his son, Douglas McGarel Hogg, and his grandson, Quintin McGarel Hogg, becoming Lord Chancellor.
Dr Draper said: "Seeing the names of the slave-owners repeated in 20th‑century family naming practices is a very stark reminder about where those families saw their origins being from. In this case I'm thinking about the Hogg family. To have two Lord Chancellors in Britain in the 20th century bearing the name of a slave-owner from British Guiana, who went penniless to British Guyana, came back a very wealthy man and contributed to the formation of this political dynasty, which incorporated his name into their children in recognition – it seems to me to be an illuminating story and a potent example."
Mr Hogg refused to comment yesterday, saying he "didn't know anything about it". Mr Cameron declined to comment after a request was made to the No 10 press office.
Another demonstration of the extent to which slavery links stretch into modern Britain is Evelyn Bazalgette, the uncle of one of the giants of Victorian engineering, Sir Joseph Bazalgette and ancestor of Arts Council boss Sir Peter Bazalgette. He was paid £7,352 (£5.7m in today's money) for 420 slaves from two estates in Jamaica. Sir Peter said yesterday: "It had always been rumoured that his father had some interests in the Caribbean and I suspect Evelyn inherited that. So I heard rumours but this confirms it, and guess it's the sort of thing wealthy people on the make did in the 1800s. He could have put his money elsewhere but regrettably he put it in the Caribbean."
The TV chef Ainsley Harriott, who had slave-owners in his family on his grandfather's side, said yesterday he was shocked by the amount paid out by the government to the slave-owners. "You would think the government would have given at least some money to the freed slaves who need to find homes and start new lives," he said. "It seems a bit barbaric. It's like the rich protecting the rich."
The database is available from Wednesday at: ucl.ac.uk/lbs.
Cruel trade
Slavery on an industrial scale was a major source of the wealth of the British empire, being the exploitation upon which the West Indies sugar trade and cotton crop in North America was based. Those who made money from it were not only the slave-owners, but also the investors in those who transported Africans to enslavement. In the century to 1810, British ships carried about three million to a life of forced labour.
Campaigning against slavery began in the late 18th century as revulsion against the trade spread. This led, first, to the abolition of the trade in slaves, which came into law in 1808, and then, some 26 years later, to the Act of Parliament that would emancipate slaves. This legislation made provision for the staggering levels of compensation for slave-owners, but gave the former slaves not a penny in reparation.
More than that, it said that only children under six would be immediately free; the rest being regarded as "apprentices" who would, in exchange for free board and lodging, have to work for their "owners" 40 and a half hours for nothing until 1840. Several large disturbances meant that the deadline was brought forward and so, in 1838, 700,000 slaves in the West Indies, 40,000 in South Africa and 20,000 in Mauritius were finally liberated.
David Randall
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britains-colonial-shame-slave-owners-given-huge-payouts-after-abolition-8508358.html
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Good to see you posting something that's being circulated by white supremacists MM.
It really shouldn't need explaining, but the issue is about SCALE.
Yes slavery always existed. We industrialised it.
That propaganda you've just shared is the exact equivalent of saying that pogroms always happened so why should Germany have special guilt over the Holocaust?
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Billy, it still exists, child traffickers, prostitution,slave labour, exploitation, it is on your doorstep in this country, and is mostly run by foreign criminals living in this country.
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Selby. Yes. And I want that rooting out and punishing.
People still abuse and assault Jews today. Should Germany just "meh" over the Holocaust?
I'll not wait for an answer on that. I accept that you'll just fire back more whataboutery.
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Billy, it still exists, child traffickers, prostitution,slave labour, exploitation, it is on your doorstep in this country, and is mostly run by foreign criminals living in this country.
And they're all against the law because we as humanity recognise that it should be. Unlike the time when slave trading wasn't against the law. So what's your point?
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Does this mean we have to abolish the scout movement
Robert Baden-Powell: Scouts founder statue to be removed in Poole https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53004638
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Ant and dec have made an apology now
I wonder if the cast of Goodness Gracious Me will apologise for the “going out for an English sketch” which I thought was hilarious and was not offended by it in any way
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Remember the black and white minstrel show?
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Love thy Neighbour
Never get away with that these days, yet a black actor and actress starred in it
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Billy what about on this point I agree with you, but the constant undermining of the police and authority, will only give organised crime more confidence.
Like football twenty years ago the tail is starting to wag the dog, most likely at my age I will not see it, but about twenty years down the line if something does not alter some posters on here might not have the same thoughts on liberty they have now.
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Good to see you posting something that's being circulated by white supremacists MM.
TBH, I had no idea is allegedly by 'white supremacists' BST - it was sent to me and I believed it was thought provoking - does that make me bad?
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MM
No. But it does make you a naive example of how these things work.
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That article you shared MM is a superb piece of propaganda. It has everything that good (sic) propaganda should have.
1) It comes across as a reasonably argued, logical critique.
2) It has undeniable facts which strengthen its credibility (Slavery has been a widespread problem. Black Africans were involved in and profited from the Slave Trade. The UK was the first country to abolish slavery...)
3) It uses this approach to appeal to reason and have people who don't think too hard nodding in agreement.
4) And that allows it to pull of the key sleight of hand. It skillfully side-steps the REALLY important issue in the current debate (that we white Europeans, and the British more than anyone chose to industrialise slavery and the slave trade and took it to levels that were astronomically higher than anything the world had ever seen, or has ever seen since, reaping an unprecedented financial reward: and in doing so, WE laid the foundations for the ongoing socio-economic problems that are still being played out in front of our eyes).
5) And having done all that, it gets to its purpose. An affirmation of what the reader already wants to believe, but perhaps hasn't had supported by such a well-crafted argument: that they are being duped and hoodwinked by "the other side". The "apologetic, guilt ridden white appeasers" are the enemy and must be resisted.
It truly is a superb example of the genre. You don't do propaganda by screaming something that is obviously bullshit. You wrap up the Lie in swathes of truth, such that the Lie passes through unnoticed. You make the reader feel that they are correct in their gut instincts. You give them a pseudo-intellectual buttress for what they want to believe is true. And you make it far, far harder for anyone to engage with them on the real truth.
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Ant and dec have made an apology now
I wonder if the cast of Goodness Gracious Me will apologise for the “going out for an English sketch” which I thought was hilarious and was not offended by it in any way
I wonder whether anyone who has ever told an Irish joke should apologise to the World.
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Love thy Neighbour
Never get away with that these days, yet a black actor and actress starred in it
It was a parody on English attitudes at the time, (as was Till Death Us Do Part), but an awful lot of people didn't understand that and branded both shows racist, which they certainly weren't - they simply highlighted and poked fun at the racial prejudice commonly displayed by many English people at the time. The 'Little Englander' was the bad guy in both shows!
Sadly, racial prejudice was a powerful tool used by the right as part of the Leave campaigns - and equally sadly we still have plenty of 'Little Englanders', nothing changes; why can't we learn?
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Rising damp anyone?
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Mind your Language - no not you Idler lol
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Christ, Mind Your Language was cringeworthy even at the time. Rising Damp and Till Death Us Do Part had some multi-dimensionality in the way they approached race and racism. MYL just presented flat, stupid stereotypes for us to giggle at.
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That article you shared MM is a superb piece of propaganda. It has everything that good (sic) propaganda should have.
1) It comes across as a reasonably argued, logical critique.
2) It has undeniable facts which strengthen its credibility (Slavery has been a widespread problem. Black Africans were involved in and profited from the Slave Trade. The UK was the first country to abolish slavery...)
3) It uses this approach to appeal to reason and have people who don't think too hard nodding in agreement.
4) And that allows it to pull of the key sleight of hand. It skillfully side-steps the REALLY important issue in the current debate (that we white Europeans, and the British more than anyone chose to industrialise slavery and the slave trade and took it to levels that were astronomically higher than anything the world had ever seen, or has ever seen since, reaping an unprecedented financial reward: and in doing so, WE laid the foundations for the ongoing socio-economic problems that are still being played out in front of our eyes).
5) And having done all that, it gets to its purpose. An affirmation of what the reader already wants to believe, but perhaps hasn't had supported by such a well-crafted argument: that they are being duped and hoodwinked by "the other side". The "apologetic, guilt ridden white appeasers" are the enemy and must be resisted.
It truly is a superb example of the genre. You don't do propaganda by screaming something that is obviously bullshit. You wrap up the Lie in swathes of truth, such that the Lie passes through unnoticed. You make the reader feel that they are correct in their gut instincts. You give them a pseudo-intellectual buttress for what they want to believe is true. And you make it far, far harder for anyone to engage with them on the real truth.
I actually agree with you - there are many who have similar skill sets.....
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You should point them out when you find them MM. It's important to separate propaganda from correctly and honestly argued points. A lot of people have serious trouble seeing the difference between the two...
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Speaking of which, I see Farage has been sacked by LBC today.
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The debt which was to the Rotheschild family who also made millions out of slavery and in interest over the loan period, was extended twice once for each world war!!! The debt endured until 2015 but to say all those working have paid for the original is a huge stretch but that's how all sides operate "not strictly true but neither false"
The truth is out there for every side
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Hound I now live and work in Northern Ireland and I’ve heard more Irish jokes told here by the locals than I did recently in the uk
Maybe we should apologise to Liverpudlians for work jokes (notice I didn’t refer to them as scousers in case it upset someone) or we should all be apologising to ourselves every time a Yorkshireman is referred to as tight
In my case the cap does fit
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I wonder if you'd hear the same number of Irish jokes in Ireland Phil?
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Hound I now live and work in Northern Ireland and I’ve heard more Irish jokes told here by the locals than I did recently in the uk
Maybe we should apologise to Liverpudlians for work jokes (notice I didn’t refer to them as scousers in case it upset someone) or we should all be apologising to ourselves every time a Yorkshireman is referred to as tight
In my case the cap does fit
Phil, I don’t have an argument about people telling Irish, Yorkshiremen etc jokes.
The point I was trying to put forward is why is that not considered to be racist but telling a joke about a Pakistani person now is.
I see that Ant and Dec have issued a public apology for dressing up as black people and speaking in a West Indian accent back in 2003.
Should people who say, dressed up a a Scotsman, wearing a ginger wig and a kilt for example, and speaking in a Glaswegian accent, apologise for that.
With no disrespect intended to anyone I just think that some things being said just now are taking the racist theme too far.
People have to be able to see the funny side of some situations and be able to laugh.
Before anyone piles in and says I can’t see the bigger picture, of course I can and I have great sympathy for some of the things that have and do happen in the World.
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Tend to agree people are going too far with it. Have we reached the point where nobody can be mocked ever at all?
I think it's fine to have humour and even some humour based on skin, hair colour etc or nationality as long as there is balance.
Should we alongside that promote equality etc? absolutely. Is removing an old comedy or statue going to make much difference? Symbolic perhaps but does very little to address real issues does it?
With TV comedies let people make their own minds up, the past is just that. Most young people wouldn't find most of them that funny as times have changed so they will naturally disappear in many cases anyway but give people that choice.
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Hound.
It is really, really simple and I do not understand why anyone struggles to get this.
Comedy that is predicated on stereotyping weaker, more marginalised groups than the people who are making or laughing at the comedy, and doing it in a way that is designed to belittle is just not funny. It is bullying.
So the GGM "English" sketch was funny. The one in the Young Ones (now cut) where the police officer with sunglasses on is giving racist abuse to a white man because "I thought you was a nigger" is funny.
Jim Davidson doing his Chalky White act wasn't funny. Bernard Manning doing his "So there were this Paki" jokes wasn't funny. Little Britain doing Vicky Pollard wasn't funny.
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My Jimmy Saville impersonation used to have them rocking in the aisles.
Wouldn't dream of doing it nowadays.
Let's hope there's no skeletons in the cupboard about James Stewart, Humphrey Bogart or James Mason.
My repertoire will be in tatters!
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BST, the point is that just because you don’t find it funny doesn’t mean it isn’t to others.
The Bernard Manning stuff and the Jim Davidson stuff was funny at the time and people laughed at it.
How is that any different to the “I thought you was a nigger” sketch any different.
It uses the N word but you find that funny?
Is that because it was being said to a white man?
I am in no way a racist person and have some very good black and Asian friends but I do think that the current situation is being taken too far.
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My Jimmy Saville impersonation used to have them rocking in the aisles.
Wouldn't dream of doing it nowadays.
Let's hope there's no skeletons in the cupboard about James Stewart, Humphrey Bogart or James Mason.
My repertoire will be in tatters!
TT, if you did a good Rhett Butler then that has gone with the wind too.
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Bernard Manning wasn’t funny, even at the time (70s) many people considered him to be OTT.
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Bernard Manning wasn’t funny, even at the time (70s) many people considered him to be OTT.
Yes they did IDM but his shows always sold out so I guess that many people did find it it funny.
I wasn’t a fan of his by the way.
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The Germans episode of Fawlty towers gone now
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The Germans episode of Fawlty towers gone now
Yes it’s getting stupid now
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The Germans episode of Fawlty towers gone now
Yes it’s getting stupid now
Oh I don't know. I watched that episode recently and the racism was truly shocking.
Right to ban it imo.
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How about banning all Samuel l Jackson movies That typify black people as hard criminals
All tv and films that identify all native Americans as the oppressed
We might consider banning the Hobbit because it might upset short people
Or take the music of randy Newman off the radio because of his record short people He obviously doesn’t like them
The list could go on and on and on
Ban meat adverts in case it upsets vegetarians or totally ban social media as it’s full of shxxe
The most important thing to ban could be Britain’s got talent as it basically chooses individuals to ridicule(that would be a result)
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Hound you are wrong about Ireland
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SongFacts
The Guardian newspaper July 28, 2008 asked Newman if realized from the start that this song's irony would be a tough sell. He replied: "I didn't. I thought, all you gotta do is listen. It's not like it's James Joyce. [Then] I realized the medium wasn't great for that. People don't listen to music like that, where they're actually listening. They're doing all kinds of things. It's just an irritation."
He put it this way when he spoke with Rolling Stone in 2017: "Because it was a hit, the song reached people who aren't looking for irony. For them, the words mean exactly what they say. I can imagine being a short kid in junior high school. I thought about it before I let the record get out. But I thought, 'What the hell?' I know what I meant – the guy in that song is crazy. He was not to be believed."
https://www.songfacts.com/facts/randy-newman/short-people
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BST, the point is that just because you don’t find it funny doesn’t mean it isn’t to others.
The Bernard Manning stuff and the Jim Davidson stuff was funny at the time and people laughed at it.
How is that any different to the “I thought you was a nigger” sketch any different.
It uses the N word but you find that funny?
Is that because it was being said to a white man?
I am in no way a racist person and have some very good black and Asian friends but I do think that the current situation is being taken too far.
Hound.
Are you for real? You honestly don't see the difference between using the N word to focus on the fact that a black person is black and make that the butt of the joke, and one that uses it to make the racists attitudes of others the core of the joke?
Honestly?
It is always and everywhere about intention and context. Always.
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Should people be considering chucking the Mercedes Benz, BMW, Volkswagon cars they drive about into the dock, after all they were big supporters of the most racial ruling government ever put on Earth in Europe.
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Should people be considering chucking the Mercedes Benz, BMW, Volkswagon cars they drive about into the dock, after all they were big supporters of the most racial ruling government ever put on Earth in Europe.
I'm sure they never drink coca cola products either. And here is the problem, times have changed, move on and deal with the here and now.
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Uncle Ben uses slave imagery, time to ban those products too?
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Anyone joining Fat Lads Alliance protests tomorrow?
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Hound you are wrong about Ireland
What did I say about Ireland?
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That I wouldn’t hear Irish jokes in Ireland
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Hound.
It is really, really simple and I do not understand why anyone struggles to get this.
Comedy that is predicated on stereotyping weaker, more marginalised groups than the people who are making or laughing at the comedy, and doing it in a way that is designed to belittle is just not funny. It is bullying.
So the GGM "English" sketch was funny. The one in the Young Ones (now cut) where the police officer with sunglasses on is giving racist abuse to a white man because "I thought you was a nigger" is funny.
Jim Davidson doing his Chalky White act wasn't funny. Bernard Manning doing his "So there were this Paki" jokes wasn't funny. Little Britain doing Vicky Pollard wasn't funny.
BST, Reading through your above post again, the way I understand what you are saying is that racist comedy aimed at weaker or more marginalised groups is not funny (and therefore racist).
Then, comedy aimed at a wider and stronger group is ok, such as the going out for an English sketch or the policeman using the N word at a White man.
That reads to me that you think it is ok to aim racist comments at say, the white English group of people.
But back to my original point of view on this issue, I was simply saying that the racism card is being played too often, something that it would appear that other posters are in agreement with me now.
It really is getting silly to ban and remove some of the stuff that it is happening to.
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That I wouldn’t hear Irish jokes in Ireland
I think you need to look again Phil.
I haven’t said anything of the sort.
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Apologies it was Sydney Rover
Please don’t be too upset and ban me or feel aggrieved
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I’m not sure why you have included that last line Phil.
I was of the opinion that our exchanges had always been of a civilised nature.
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That's a thought, I wonder if old Syd has his house parked on a bit of real estate that some poor old indigenous Ausie really owns. Would he just vacate or come over all white supremacist?
And old Iberian benefiting from all that lovely Inca and native South American native gold. I don't blame him for not demonstrating in Madrid against it. From what I saw of the Spanish police in Barcelona last year they are not that bothered about taking a Knee themselves, but are not adverse to putting someone on their back with a sore head.
Nothing to get upset about it wasn't police brutality the same in Paris it happened in the EU so it is OK.
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Only a joke
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My Jimmy Saville impersonation used to have them rocking in the aisles.
Wouldn't dream of doing it nowadays.
Let's hope there's no skeletons in the cupboard about James Stewart, Humphrey Bogart or James Mason.
My repertoire will be in tatters!
I'll raise you my Eddie Waring and Bill McClaren, Tommy.
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Hound.
There's nothing basically wrong with noting that people are from different races. Telling a joke that revolves around something specifically English is not "racist".
it is, as I say, always and everywhere about context and intention.
So no, the Young Ones sketch wasn't by any possible definition "racist" even though it used the N word.
And racism in practice is about relative power. You can be from a disenfranchised group and have racist attitudes towards people from a stronger, more powerful group, but there is far less effect in that. That's why a black person calling a white person "honky" doesn't have the same effect as a white person calling a black person a "nigger".
I'm astonished that I have to spell this out to be honest. It seems self-evident to me.
For the record, fro all the reasons I state up there, I think culling the Fawlty Towers Hitler sketch is a stupid over-reaction.
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Hound.
There's nothing basically wrong with noting that people are from different races. Telling a joke that revolves around something specifically English is not "racist".
it is, as I say, always and everywhere about context and intention.
So no, the Young Ones sketch wasn't by any possible definition "racist" even though it used the N word.
And racism in practice is about relative power. You can be from a disenfranchised group and have racist attitudes towards people from a stronger, more powerful group, but there is far less effect in that. That's why a black person calling a white person "honky" doesn't have the same effect as a white person calling a black person a "nigger".
I'm astonished that I have to spell this out to be honest. It seems self-evident to me.
For the record, fro all the reasons I state up there, I think culling the Fawlty Towers Hitler sketch is a stupid over-reaction.
A lot of common sense in that post BST. I personally feel there is a massive difference between being anti-racist, which any sane person should be, and overly politically correct.
Not that I'm saying you are OPC, but some people are.
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According to Radio 4 this morning the Fawlty Towers episode was removed because they have been showing the wrong version.
In the original there is use of the 'n' word. This was removed in 2013 and a new edit has been used in repeats since then.
The one on UK Gold or whatever it is has been using the original
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2013/jan/23/fawlty-towers-isnt-racist-major-gowen-is
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Some of those programmes in the early 70s were actually parodying the racists and racist attitudes..
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BST
What I objected to in Fawlty Towers was not the scat about the Germans its the bit when Fawlty and the Major are discussing the W Indies cricket team.
That is completely unacceptable in this day and age.
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TT, it isn’t from this day and age though.
It is from around fifty years ago.
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No but is still shown on TV.
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No but is still shown on TV.
I dont think it is 100% reasonable to judge the past by today's standards
Logically sense is to understand in context
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https://twitter.com/JohnCleese/status/1271478966948265986?s=19
I tend to agree
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BST
What I objected to in Fawlty Towers was not the scat about the Germans its the bit when Fawlty and the Major are discussing the W Indies cricket team.
That is completely unacceptable in this day and age.
Sorry TT. I didn't remember that bit. Agreed.
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No but is still shown on TV.
I dont think it is 100% reasonable to judge the past by today's standards
Logically sense is to understand in context
But it's not judging the past. It's deciding what is acceptable to watch today.
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https://twitter.com/JohnCleese/status/1271478966948265986?s=19
I tend to agree
If you watch the old episodes, the laughter of the audience went through the roof when he said "coon" or "nignog".
I very much doubt they were laughing at him because they disliked his racist views.
I once went to see Bernard Manning live. Peer pressure. I'm not proud.
He was actually a very skillful comedian. Made some very cleverly constructed jokes. Which raised polite laughter. Then he said, "So this nigger..." and the place erupted.
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Once watched a programme on him, probably after he died, but a tough cookie when younger in the Army also a sergeant I think.
But an agent told the tale of how the top of the bill for the Scouts gang show in London had took ill at the last minute. his only get out was Bernard and although having reservations of others had to fill in with him.
He put on a fabulous clean act that went down a bomb to most peoples surprise and brought the house down to an audience completely different to his norm.
At the end the Agent and top brass went in to see what payment he wanted the norm being no fee but expenses and hotel bill to about £13,000.
When asked he said "I thought it was for the scouts and guides charity I don't want anything", and wrote them a check for thousands of pounds having also got some of his mates on the northern club scene to also donate with him.
Up to that programme he was still the only act that had paid to do the show.
Also on the Parkinson show Esther Rantzen really had a go at him about his act and how he disgusted her, He never said a word while she came out with her diatribe. He just tapped Parky on the knee and said " don't worry Parky, I won't let you down" and then proceeded to absolutely kill her and took her to pieces so much that the other guest, Magnus Magnusson when Esther Rantzen asked, "what do you think" he said I agree with Bernard.
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Selby.
That'll be this one.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nxevi
Watch it right to the end. The last minute is very instructive.
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Nail on head
Cleese told The Age newspaper: “If you put nonsense words into the mouth of someone you want to make fun of, you’re not broadcasting their views, you’re making fun of them. The major was an old fossil left over from decades before. We were not supporting his views, we were making fun of them. If they can’t see that – if people are too stupid to see that – what can one say?”
https://amp.theguardian.com/culture/2020/jun/12/john-cleese-attacks-stupid-removal-of-fawlty-towers-episode?__twitter_impression=true
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Selby.
That'll be this one.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nxevi
Watch it right to the end. The last minute is very instructive.
I'm assuming you didn't watch it so I'll tell you what he said.
He said no-one could watch his act and think he really meant what he was saying. But he'd said earlier on, he told racist jokes because it earned him money.
So, when I saw him at Blackpool South Pier and the thousand or so people were rolling in the aisles whenever he said "Paki" or "nignog", he was putting on an act. He was playing to what he reckoned his audience wanted to hear.
He didn't think his joke where he imitated an Urdu language BBC programme, speaking in a Pakistani accent unintelligibly and interspersing in with "Social Security" and "Housing Benefit" was funny. But he was serving it up because his punters did.
And you have the gall to accuse ME of being condescending to people!
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That's a thought, I wonder if old Syd has his house parked on a bit of real estate that some poor old indigenous Ausie really owns. Would he just vacate or come over all white supremacist?
And old Iberian benefiting from all that lovely Inca and native South American native gold. I don't blame him for not demonstrating in Madrid against it. From what I saw of the Spanish police in Barcelona last year they are not that bothered about taking a Knee themselves, but are not adverse to putting someone on their back with a sore head.
Nothing to get upset about it wasn't police brutality the same in Paris it happened in the EU so it is OK.
You should be paying homage to this man selby.
Larry Tesler
"The inventor of cut/copy & paste, find & replace, and more, was former Xerox researcher Larry Tesler," the company tweeted. "Your workday is easier thanks to his revolutionary ideas." Mr Tesler was born in the Bronx, New York, in 1945, and studied at Stanford University in California.Feb 20, 2020
Pity no one told you about this though?
https://www.quetext.com/
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Well, it's good that we are able to discuss and debate these matters as in some countries, it isn't an option. There's no doubt Understanding history and it's context helps us to shape the future.
It's also good to debate what is perceived to be racist but actually isn't.
Probablty like many, seeing the news and the protests with acts of vandalism, shocked me. I was naive enough to think this was a spontaneous reaction to the killing of a citizen in America. Then you see how remarkably similar these protests are in cities around the globe. Then you begin to smell something.
Maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake these days but there's much more to this than black lives matter. Of course black lives matter, all lives matter. Free speach and democracy matter. Then you realise this BLM organisation is something much more and these protests were a set up, made to look spontaneous.
I've not fully got my head around this yet and maybe I'm too weary to fully grasp it but save your debates about Manning and Cleese, (although it does no harm to challenge our own views on racism) and look at the bigger picture of what the BLM movements aims and objectives are.
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Selby.
That'll be this one.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6lsaxz
Watch it right to the end. The last minute is very instructive.
When I hit that link all I get is wrestling.
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See bst post 166 above NP
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Well, it's good that we are able to discuss and debate these matters as in some countries, it isn't an option. There's no doubt Understanding history and it's context helps us to shape the future.
It's also good to debate what is perceived to be racist but actually isn't.
Probablty like many, seeing the news and the protests with acts of vandalism, shocked me. I was naive enough to think this was a spontaneous reaction to the killing of a citizen in America. Then you see how remarkably similar these protests are in cities around the globe. Then you begin to smell something.
Maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake these days but there's much more to this than black lives matter. Of course black lives matter, all lives matter. Free speach and democracy matter. Then you realise this BLM organisation is something much more and these protests were a set up, made to look spontaneous.
I've not fully got my head around this yet and maybe I'm too weary to fully grasp it but save your debates about Manning and Cleese, (although it does no harm to challenge our own views on racism) and look at the bigger picture of what the BLM movements aims and objectives are.
DBaz I always find that you can tell what a movement is about by how it is reported & the people that oppose it.
There were dozen's of demonstrations attended by thousands of protesters in the UK. There was more singing and dancing then fighting.
Football hooligans, Tommy Robinson making videos promising violence on the streets, racist chants, monkey noises and Nazi salutes. Some people do really want to takes us back to the 1970's.
Makes you think. Makes me think.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/y3zpzy/far-right-planning-defend-statues-blm-protesters
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans-and-far-right-plan-london-demonstration/
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Fawlty Towers episode re instated by the UKTV but with a warning
-
Well, it's good that we are able to discuss and debate these matters as in some countries, it isn't an option. There's no doubt Understanding history and it's context helps us to shape the future.
It's also good to debate what is perceived to be racist but actually isn't.
Probablty like many, seeing the news and the protests with acts of vandalism, shocked me. I was naive enough to think this was a spontaneous reaction to the killing of a citizen in America. Then you see how remarkably similar these protests are in cities around the globe. Then you begin to smell something.
Maybe I'm a bit slow on the uptake these days but there's much more to this than black lives matter. Of course black lives matter, all lives matter. Free speach and democracy matter. Then you realise this BLM organisation is something much more and these protests were a set up, made to look spontaneous.
I've not fully got my head around this yet and maybe I'm too weary to fully grasp it but save your debates about Manning and Cleese, (although it does no harm to challenge our own views on racism) and look at the bigger picture of what the BLM movements aims and objectives are.
DBaz I always find that you can tell what a movement is about by how it is reported & the people that oppose it.
There were dozen's of demonstrations attended by thousands of protesters in the UK. There was more singing and dancing then fighting.
Football hooligans, Tommy Robinson making videos promising violence on the streets, racist chants, monkey noises and Nazi salutes. Some people do really want to takes us back to the 1970's.
Makes you think. Makes me think.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/y3zpzy/far-right-planning-defend-statues-blm-protesters
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/
https://www.hopenothate.org.uk/2020/06/08/football-hooligans-and-far-right-plan-london-demonstration/
Yep. Just seen a couple of other vids and it's making a bit more sense now. Another jolt to the senses to make us reassess our society. Is evolution quick enough etc??
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That's a thought, I wonder if old Syd has his house parked on a bit of real estate that some poor old indigenous Ausie really owns. Would he just vacate or come over all white supremacist?
And old Iberian benefiting from all that lovely Inca and native South American native gold. I don't blame him for not demonstrating in Madrid against it. From what I saw of the Spanish police in Barcelona last year they are not that bothered about taking a Knee themselves, but are not adverse to putting someone on their back with a sore head.
Nothing to get upset about it wasn't police brutality the same in Paris it happened in the EU so it is OK.
You should be paying homage to this man selby.
Larry Tesler
"The inventor of cut/copy & paste, find & replace, and more, was former Xerox researcher Larry Tesler," the company tweeted. "Your workday is easier thanks to his revolutionary ideas." Mr Tesler was born in the Bronx, New York, in 1945, and studied at Stanford University in California.Feb 20, 2020
Pity no one told you about this though?
https://www.quetext.com/
It's not just that Syd, he doesn't even read what he's copying properly. He lifted a whole load of stuff that a right-wing Brexit think tank said and tried to pass it off as something Barnier said. And despite it being uncovered he won't acknowledge it, of course. He just posts some sub-BB 'witticisms' instead.
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NP.
Here's the link. When I copied the original one, it had already automatically gone on to the next video in the websites list. My mistake.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2nxevi
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I am only retired, I havn't the time to be on here like you lot with nothing to do.
Billy you keep saying you employ people, if they spent as much time during the day on social media that you do, would you employ them?
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I havn't the time to be on here like you lot with nothing to do.
And you wonder why folks argue with you on here with an attitude like that.?
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Interesting to see the usual folk defending racism. The same older folk that got offended when it was pointed out the demographics of Brexit voters.
Bigoted hypocrites springs to mind.
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Hey up IB, any statues of conquistadors you fancy pulling down in your area. Watch out for them nasty Spanish police though, The EU let them do anything they want.
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Interesting to see the usual folk defending racism. The same older folk that got offended when it was pointed out the demographics of Brexit voters.
Bigoted hypocrites springs to mind.
Who has defended racism?
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I am only retired, I havn't the time to be on here like you lot with nothing to do.
Billy you keep saying you employ people, if they spent as much time during the day on social media that you do, would you employ them?
You certainly don't have the time to read the websites you're cutting and pasting from, do you?
Or to apologise when you get caught red-handed.
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Selby.
Don't worry your little head over how much I or my colleagues work.
Just stick to the subject instead of lazy and ignorant and hominems.
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Interesting to see the usual folk defending racism. The same older folk that got offended when it was pointed out the demographics of Brexit voters.
Bigoted hypocrites springs to mind.
Who has defended racism?
Something I heard the other day. Would you describe yourself as a racist? I guess most of us would answer no to that question.
Try this one. If you are not an anti-racist, then you are a racist!
Made me think and question whether I have ever tackled racist behaviour and whether we are doing enough as a society stamp it out.
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That's a thought, I wonder if old Syd has his house parked on a bit of real estate that some poor old indigenous Ausie really owns. Would he just vacate or come over all white supremacist?
And old Iberian benefiting from all that lovely Inca and native South American native gold. I don't blame him for not demonstrating in Madrid against it. From what I saw of the Spanish police in Barcelona last year they are not that bothered about taking a Knee themselves, but are not adverse to putting someone on their back with a sore head.
Nothing to get upset about it wasn't police brutality the same in Paris it happened in the EU so it is OK.
You should be paying homage to this man selby.
Larry Tesler
"The inventor of cut/copy & paste, find & replace, and more, was former Xerox researcher Larry Tesler," the company tweeted. "Your workday is easier thanks to his revolutionary ideas." Mr Tesler was born in the Bronx, New York, in 1945, and studied at Stanford University in California.Feb 20, 2020
Pity no one told you about this though?
https://www.quetext.com/
It's not just that Syd, he doesn't even read what he's copying properly. He lifted a whole load of stuff that a right-wing Brexit think tank said and tried to pass it off as something Barnier said. And despite it being uncovered he won't acknowledge it, of course. He just posts some sub-BB 'witticisms' instead.
There seems to be an awful lot of posts recently that add nothing to the topic being discussed. Some individuals seem hell-bent on just posting insults and digs at certain other posters.
Try and be more civil.
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As I mentioned earlier you tell how important a movement is by the people who oppose it.
Urinating on a memorial to a policeman murdered in a terrorist attacked - good luck defending that.
#BlackShirtsMatter
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Interesting to see the usual folk defending racism. The same older folk that got offended when it was pointed out the demographics of Brexit voters.
Bigoted hypocrites springs to mind.
Who has defended racism?
Something I heard the other day. Would you describe yourself as a racist? I guess most of us would answer no to that question.
Try this one. If you are not an anti-racist, then you are a racist!
Made me think and question whether I have ever tackled racist behaviour and whether we are doing enough as a society stamp it out.
So the question still stands to IR, who has defended racism.
I can’t think of anyone on here who has said it is ok to be racist.
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Hey up IB, any statues of conquistadors you fancy pulling down in your area. Watch out for them nasty Spanish police though, The EU let them do anything they want.
It clearly a subject you know absolutely nothing about.
Over the last 40 years 1000s of statues,street names,public buildings,parks etc have been removed or renamed.
Stick to your anti EU blindness.
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I am only retired, I havn't the time to be on here like you lot with nothing to do.
Qué? Surely you have more time than us employed folk?
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Where did they do all that then IB, Barcelona?
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Where did they do all that then IB, Barcelona?
In Franco’s case every statue in the Country has been removed, over 600 of them
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I would be surprised if they ever had one of Franco in Barcelona.
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I would be surprised if they ever had one of Franco in Barcelona.
Then I suggest you read about Francoist Spain selby
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
Is that last bit a Freudian slip MM.
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I would be surprised if they ever had one of Franco in Barcelona.
Pure ignorance.
Dont worry,it probably comes to all of us as we get older and certain,horrible diseases take over your mind.
As I said before,
Stick to things you are an expert about.
Europe certainly isnt one.
Have you seen many Romanians in horses and traps up the A19 recently?
I've been to Romania and never seen any.
Ive lived on the A19 and seen hundreds.
Was that your family walking all the way from Wales and Ireland?
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
Is that last bit a Freudian slip MM.
Don't know white you mean, hound.
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
You missed out the incident where they heroically defend an English piece of grass from some, quite clearly far-left Antifa scum. desecrating it by having a picnic:
https://twitter.com/Tom_Norm/status/1271832403070377986
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
You missed out the incident where they heroically defend an English piece of grass from some, quite clearly far-left Antifa scum. desecrating it by having a picnic:
https://twitter.com/Tom_Norm/status/1271832403070377986
Jesus Christ. I'm appalled but not surprised. They obviously turned up itching for a scrap with someone (anyone!) but when BLM didn't turn up, people like these - and the coppers - got it instead. Scum.
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Not quite true glyn while it is disgusting whoever even turns up for these protests during these times there was a large rally of blm and they threw punches on Westminster bridge at the others trying to get to parliament square so it’s not all one sided
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https://news.sky.com/story/counter-protesters-intent-on-causing-chaos-run-into-hyde-park-12006188
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
I class them all the same so not really worth commenting on is it? A dick is a dick regardless of its skin colour.
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Quite agree
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Not quite true glyn while it is disgusting whoever even turns up for these protests during these times there was a large rally of blm and they threw punches on Westminster bridge at the others trying to get to parliament square so it’s not all one sided
Nothing on BBC site saying that, which is what I was looking at. Thanks for the link.
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
I class them all the same so not really worth commenting on is it? A dick is a dick regardless of its skin colour.
Are you really comparing hundreds of thousands protesting systemic racism - with an unfortunate minority of violent individuals - to a few thousand white supremacists, the vast majority of whom went out with the explicit intention of causing violence?
They are not the same. If you genuinely think that you are part of the problem. Full stop.
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'They are all the same' is lazy commentary when it is obvious they are not. Maybe it is intended to cast doubt rather than actually saying 'I support the right wing thuggery?' it doesn't make a lot of sense.
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
I class them all the same so not really worth commenting on is it? A dick is a dick regardless of its skin colour.
Are you really comparing hundreds of thousands protesting systemic racism - with an unfortunate minority of violent individuals - to a few thousand white supremacists, the vast majority of whom went out with the explicit intention of causing violence?
They are not the same. If you genuinely think that you are part of the problem. Full stop.
Disagree, at the point somebody turns violent and none peaceful they've lost the point of their protest. Violence shouldn't be accepted in any form and we should be treating people the same regardless. If I'm part of the problem we really are in trouble.
'They are all the same' is lazy commentary when it is obvious they are not. Maybe it is intended to cast doubt rather than actually saying 'I support the right wing thuggery?' it doesn't make a lot of sense.
That's a pretty twisted interpretation (as usual from you). Are you as such saying that it's ok for the protests last week to be violent but not yesterdays?
As for your second point that's pretty offensive. It is ok to criticise something without supporting the alternate view. Something many seem to fail to realise. You can criticise the actions of any person without being racist or agreeing with the contrasting view.
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
I class them all the same so not really worth commenting on is it? A dick is a dick regardless of its skin colour.
Are you really comparing hundreds of thousands protesting systemic racism - with an unfortunate minority of violent individuals - to a few thousand white supremacists, the vast majority of whom went out with the explicit intention of causing violence?
They are not the same. If you genuinely think that you are part of the problem. Full stop.
Disagree, at the point somebody turns violent and none peaceful they've lost the point of their protest. Violence shouldn't be accepted in any form and we should be treating people the same regardless. If I'm part of the problem we really are in trouble.
'They are all the same' is lazy commentary when it is obvious they are not. Maybe it is intended to cast doubt rather than actually saying 'I support the right wing thuggery?' it doesn't make a lot of sense.
That's a pretty twisted interpretation (as usual from you). Are you as such saying that it's ok for the protests last week to be violent but not yesterdays?
As for your second point that's pretty offensive. It is ok to criticise something without supporting the alternate view. Something many seem to fail to realise. You can criticise the actions of any person without being racist or agreeing with the contrasting view.
Who are all the same you didn't say bfyp? Just remember the far right is politically closer to the team you support than any left organisation which is why presumably a lot lot og them hopped over the fence to become faragists.
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
I class them all the same so not really worth commenting on is it? A dick is a dick regardless of its skin colour.
Are you really comparing hundreds of thousands protesting systemic racism - with an unfortunate minority of violent individuals - to a few thousand white supremacists, the vast majority of whom went out with the explicit intention of causing violence?
They are not the same. If you genuinely think that you are part of the problem. Full stop.
Disagree, at the point somebody turns violent and none peaceful they've lost the point of their protest. Violence shouldn't be accepted in any form and we should be treating people the same regardless. If I'm part of the problem we really are in trouble.
'They are all the same' is lazy commentary when it is obvious they are not. Maybe it is intended to cast doubt rather than actually saying 'I support the right wing thuggery?' it doesn't make a lot of sense.
That's a pretty twisted interpretation (as usual from you). Are you as such saying that it's ok for the protests last week to be violent but not yesterdays?
As for your second point that's pretty offensive. It is ok to criticise something without supporting the alternate view. Something many seem to fail to realise. You can criticise the actions of any person without being racist or agreeing with the contrasting view.
Who are all the same you didn't say bfyp? Just remember the far right is politically closer to the team you support than any left organisation which is why presumably a lot lot og them hopped over the fence to become faragists.
So if bfyp didn’t say who was all the same, how can you say it is obvious they are not?
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Because my interpretation is that the far right went to fight and cause mayhem and the majority of blm went primarily to protest. If blm were not protesting then the far right would likely not have been there at all.
Added: even johnson the knob called out the right which is surprising.
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I don’t doubt that some of the far right people were out there to cause trouble but I also think that the BLM group had been infiltrated by some people who also wanted to cause trouble.
Neither side could claim that their protests had been trouble free.
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Provide some proof please hound of who you think would want to do that and who would stand to gain by it.
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Not quite true glyn while it is disgusting whoever even turns up for these protests during these times there was a large rally of blm and they threw punches on Westminster bridge at the others trying to get to parliament square so it’s not all one sided
Do you have any links to them urinating on a memorial to a murdered policeman? Or throwing smoke grenades at current policeman? Or attacking members of the public for having a picnic?
They are all the same!!!!
And if they are 'all the same' why have you only chosen to pick out the actions of one side to comment on?
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A massive problem in this country appears to be that however worthy a protest, the "rent a mob" mentality idiots attach to it giving idiots from the opposing view the excuse to pitch up and thus the touch paper is lit
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I think if I got assaulted or hit over the head with something I would be just as peed off whoever hit me.
Once violence starts it weakens the argument of those protesting. Once confrontation starts all of the peaceful protesters should go to the back and let the lunatic fringe fight it out with the police or their opponents.
There would be fewer for the extremists to hide amongst making them easier to identify and they might also not be so brave. Also make the gratuitous filming on mobiles illegal. Rather than offer a helping hand to someone in trouble loads now just want to film it. Those filming the police officer on the floor were disgusting.
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I don’t doubt that some of the far right people were out there to cause trouble but I also think that the BLM group had been infiltrated by some people who also wanted to cause trouble.
Neither side could claim that their protests had been trouble free.
What a load of rubbish.
There were dozens of BLM protests around the country yesterday, including several in other areas of London. All of them were peaceful except the one that was attacked in Trafalgar Square.
The vast majority of violence yesterday were far-right thugs attacking the police.
So all of the BLM protestors are aiming for violence but only 'Some' of the far-right. Is that it hound?
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Wilts.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-riots-protest-arrests-breaking-18416915
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Wilts.
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/newcastle-riots-protest-arrests-breaking-18416915
Thanks Ldr
So all of the BLM protests were peaceful. But at least 2 far-right counter protests, in Parliament Square and Newcastle involved violence against the police.
But they are 'all the same'.
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Idler, I was showing that if you wrap yourself in the flag for glory then you have to accept all the other occasions where the flag was used.
I don't actually see a lot of respect being shown to the flag when it's used on mugs, teatowels, underwear, shopping bags. I hope the buyers of these items dispose of them respectfully.
and this
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BELLA-BRITAIN-UNION-JACK-FLAG-DESIGN-MODERN-FLOOR-RUG-150x220cm-NEW/222575401169?hash=item33d28718d1:g:Vz4AAOSwEUVZYc7U
Sydney, I don't wrap myself in the Union Jack for glory. I regard as a symbol of the country that I love and was born in. I'm proud when it is hoisted high at the Olympics. It's reassuring when you see the flag abroad when used in the right way that you have something in common with others while far from home.
I disregard a lot of the tat that uses the symbol the same with the flag of St. George.
That's my opinion you are welcome to yours. I'm fed up of people having digs about what happened in the past and laying guilt on generations that had nothing to do with it.
On that basis , we can stop the perpetual digs at modern day Germans who weren't even alive at the end of WW11 let alone taking part in it . We expect THEM like the Japanese and French come to that to OWN their history in perpetuity.
Hence the 12 bombers songs sang at every England game and yesterday of course where some thought imitation of the Nazi salutes etc were fitting outside or rather around a monument to Churchill.
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With all the media photographs and video footage it will surely be easy to identify the regular offenders and put them away irrespective of colour creed or political persuasion.
The deeds should be looked at dispassionately and fair punishment meted out all that deserve it. The idiots always seem to be near the front, the rest should leave them to it rather than stand with phones filming it.
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Idler, I was showing that if you wrap yourself in the flag for glory then you have to accept all the other occasions where the flag was used.
I don't actually see a lot of respect being shown to the flag when it's used on mugs, teatowels, underwear, shopping bags. I hope the buyers of these items dispose of them respectfully.
and this
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BELLA-BRITAIN-UNION-JACK-FLAG-DESIGN-MODERN-FLOOR-RUG-150x220cm-NEW/222575401169?hash=item33d28718d1:g:Vz4AAOSwEUVZYc7U
Sydney, I don't wrap myself in the Union Jack for glory. I regard as a symbol of the country that I love and was born in. I'm proud when it is hoisted high at the Olympics. It's reassuring when you see the flag abroad when used in the right way that you have something in common with others while far from home.
I disregard a lot of the tat that uses the symbol the same with the flag of St. George.
That's my opinion you are welcome to yours. I'm fed up of people having digs about what happened in the past and laying guilt on generations that had nothing to do with it.
On that basis , we can stop the perpetual digs at modern day Germans who weren't even alive at the end of WW11 let alone taking part in it . We expect THEM like the Japanese and French come to that to OWN their history in perpetuity.
Hence the 12 bombers songs sang at every England game and yesterday of course where some thought imitation of the Nazi salutes etc were fitting outside or rather around a monument to Churchill.
Hoola, I never sing those songs and have a nephew who married a German girl when he left the army. He now speaks betterGerman than English and all of his friends and new relatives made us very welcome when we travelled there in 2000 for his wedding. There are idiots in all societies, the problem gets worse as the minorities increase.
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I don’t doubt that some of the far right people were out there to cause trouble but I also think that the BLM group had been infiltrated by some people who also wanted to cause trouble.
Neither side could claim that their protests had been trouble free.
What a load of rubbish.
There were dozens of BLM protests around the country yesterday, including several in other areas of London. All of them were peaceful except the one that was attacked in Trafalgar Square.
The vast majority of violence yesterday were far-right thugs attacking the police.
So all of the BLM protestors are aiming for violence but only 'Some' of the far-right. Is that it hound?
Wilts, please don’t get as bad as some of the leftie brigade on here.
I haven’t said that ALL of the BLM protestors are aiming for violence.
I did say that the BLM group had been infiltrated by SOME people who were out to cause trouble.
Big difference.
Those ripping down statues are probably among the SOME group.
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So once again, we should ask ourselves the question whether we are anti racist.
I think it was fairly predictable what was going to happen yesterday. Was it really about protecting our monuments? Plus you could see some of these morons had been missing their Saturday afternoons entertainment and they enjoyed resuming acquaintances with the Police.
It's plain to see what we have to deal with as a society and in football. Holding up a 'Kick it Out' banner or some other token gesture isn't going to work.
The BLM movement know exactly what they are doing, to do enough to provoke and, it has worked because it has exposed how consciously or unconsciously racist we are as a society.
I do not agree with their overall objectives eventhough, I can understand the motivation.
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I don't think blm are provoking I think they are challenging society to sort it, to finally end all the promises all the talk and get it done as our racist in chief would say. And it's about time wouldn't you say dbr?
SM has said the policy of kick it out is to reducate rather than exclude which was my thinking until I heard his argument but good luck with some of these. Any of them that are racist and violent I think should be banned from football on top of what ever penalty they may get through the courts.
What are their overall objectives dbr?
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Here's the poster boy of the Fat Lads Alliance.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1C1E/production/_112889170_tv061938129.jpg)
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Meanwhile, the Hypocrite of the Week competition has ended early.
https://mobile.twitter.com/benphillips76/status/1271910951256719360
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I don't think blm are provoking I think they are challenging society to sort it, to finally end all the promises all the talk and get it done as our racist in chief would say. And it's about time wouldn't you say dbr?
SM has said the policy of kick it out is to reducate rather than exclude which was my thinking until I heard his argument but good luck with some of these. Any of them that are racist and violent I think should be banned from football on top of what ever penalty they may get through the courts.
What are their overall objectives dbr?
Yes, I think the word challenge is better than provoke. We all from time to time must challenge our own views and educate ourselves to at least understand. We also have to challenge others, take responsibility and be part of that education process.
As far as the BLM movement is concerned, I'd rather stick to evolution rather than revolution.to progress to a fairer and prosperous society where anyone can succeed if they work at it.
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I don’t doubt that some of the far right people were out there to cause trouble but I also think that the BLM group had been infiltrated by some people who also wanted to cause trouble.
Neither side could claim that their protests had been trouble free.
What a load of rubbish.
There were dozens of BLM protests around the country yesterday, including several in other areas of London. All of them were peaceful except the one that was attacked in Trafalgar Square.
The vast majority of violence yesterday were far-right thugs attacking the police.
So all of the BLM protestors are aiming for violence but only 'Some' of the far-right. Is that it hound?
Wilts, please don’t get as bad as some of the leftie brigade on here.
I haven’t said that ALL of the BLM protestors are aiming for violence.
I did say that the BLM group had been infiltrated by SOME people who were out to cause trouble.
Big difference.
Those ripping down statues are probably among the SOME group.
That is correct hound you didn't. But you have just written 'ripping down statues'. Statues, plural?
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Here's the poster boy of the Fat Lads Alliance.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1C1E/production/_112889170_tv061938129.jpg)
Handed himself in this morning. Hope he has washed his hands.
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But they are not asking for a lot dbr, just to be treated with the same respect as other ordinary people, you think that is too much to ask?
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But they are not asking for a lot dbr, just to be treated with the same respect as other ordinary people, you think that is too much to ask?
That in itself is not too much to ask of course. But they the movement's objectives goes much further than that. Breaking down the institutions, starting with the Police. Have you heard/seen this reference to 'defunding the police'? On face value it sounds like they want to disband the police but that's not what they mean. They are talking about society policing itself, policing by the people for people by 'their' rules.
There's talk of reparations for all the history of persecution etc etc. Yes, these are all extreme views that may be unachievable but yet, the movement has taken over a precinct in Seattle I think. Be interesting to see how that pans out.
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Thanks dbr we agree on basic human rights for all which is good, I haven't seen the stuff about them wanting to break up the police (could you post any links?) but they do need to treat everyone the same and I can understand their anger, look at the Steven Lawrence case and others. There needs to be change but I agree Britain is far from ready to be without some type of force, but the police in my view needs to get to a community policing position in society where they respect us and they in turn are respected.
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Agree Sydney.
Just a couple of thought provoking vids from different perspectives that I came across. Yes they're from USA but relevant.
https://youtu.be/llci8MVh8J4
https://youtu.be/G1HSAXJz1mM
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State of this bell end in the green top at the end of this clip.
https://mobile.twitter.com/VinnieoDowd/status/1271774513831849985
Every football club has a cock like this. Note he squares up to a small female copper.
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And another re the defunding of Police. Its been on the agenda in US for a while before the George Floyd killing and now exported to UK, France, Australia with the protests.
https://youtu.be/AYa1WjHtzKc
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And the air kicks from some of these.
https://mobile.twitter.com/VinnieoDowd/status/1271809857507770376
Like Charlie Brown when Lucie pulled the football away at the last minute.
Is this the army that we were warned was going to reclaim the nation if they weren't listened to over Brexit? Just a bunch of impotent pissed up f**kwits.
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So, BST, Sydney, Wilts, Macho and all, where are we going with this? Genuine question.
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DBR.
There's no revolution. It is one of the occasional, spontaneous outbursts that happens every few years when tensions break.
It WILL be used by dog-whistle politicians on both sides of the pond to try to foment a Culture War. It's up to the sensible ones among us to not let themselves be used like that.
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I wonder if any of this would have happened on this scale without Covid
All the Black lives matter followed by the far right racist dxxxheads
If people had maybe had more responsibility with regard to work etc would they have turned out in the same numbers
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The government has got to move forward and offer some workable solutions with solid no fudge timetables, and get some community representative around the table. Get Grenfell sorted get any racism in the police sorted ensure that there is equality of employment in all areas, so much to do and unfortunately for this lot in power not a lot going on except spin. Maybe it's time to put real funding back into local areas to allow councils to play their part in society as they used to.
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Talking about Culture War, I'm regularly shocked at just how f**king thick Fox News thinks its audience is. They clearly assume they can rule them with any old b*llocks.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AaronBlake/status/1271896103357747200
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And then this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/paulkrugman
In the current circumstances, isn't it illegal to stoke up passions like this?
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When I left Donny for London in the early 1980’s I attended quite a few anti racism marches organised by the Anti Nazi League amongst others. The violence we saw yesterday was common back in those days, but rarely seemed to be reported. Many times we were attacked and abused by right wing thugs who, more often than not, outnumbered the anti racists. Also, the Police would often stand by and not do a great deal to stop these attacks. One infamous incident that I heard 3rd hand, was of some Police Officers proudly displaying NF badges!
Now, we are seeing the anti racism marches having significantly more people joining them than the racists. This was pretty rare back in the day. This makes me optimistic that we are turning things around to the point that the racists are in the minority. It’s taken a long time though.
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I’m not wanting to upset anyone but like you said Herbert you heard the story 3rd hand. Propaganda boxxocks
I find it very difficult to believe that if it did happen it was never reported on
What a great story that would have been for the trouble causing selective reporting press
If there’s any evidence of the police anywhere in the uk openly displaying fascism by flying flags then let’s see it
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Here's the poster boy of the Fat Lads Alliance.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1C1E/production/_112889170_tv061938129.jpg)
is it ok to call out fat people what if your words drove someone who has eating disorder to harm themself? Is it ok to cherry pick what you say is ok? Does this not make you as bad as
A rasist
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So, BST, Sydney, Wilts, Macho and all, where are we going with this? Genuine question.
Really, I don't know DBR - but it does feel like an epoch changing moment to me - as the late 1960's were.
After Covid things are going to be different. I can't tell you if they will be better or worse but I am pretty sure they will be different.
These protests have highlighted the cracks, divisions, prejudices in society - and that a government that has succeed by exploiting them, appears neither able or willing to heal them.
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https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fat-shaming-makes-things-worse
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Here's the poster boy of the Fat Lads Alliance.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1C1E/production/_112889170_tv061938129.jpg)
is it ok to call out fat people what if your words drove someone who has eating disorder to harm themself? Is it ok to cherry pick what you say is ok? Does this not make you as bad as
A rasist
Fat people haven’t been marginalised or persecuted for years because of their genetics.
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Here's the poster boy of the Fat Lads Alliance.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1C1E/production/_112889170_tv061938129.jpg)
is it ok to call out fat people what if your words drove someone who has eating disorder to harm themself? Is it ok to cherry pick what you say is ok? Does this not make you as bad as
A rasist
This is the problem these days, I’m fat, it never once crossed my mind that it would offend me, some folk make it their mission in life to be offended
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Racism is calling someone because of there colour ect. He is calling people because of the way they look, you can’t just pick and choose what suits and “fat” people have been shamed for years and years as you well no
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Here's the poster boy of the Fat Lads Alliance.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1C1E/production/_112889170_tv061938129.jpg)
is it ok to call out fat people what if your words drove someone who has eating disorder to harm themself? Is it ok to cherry pick what you say is ok? Does this not make you as bad as
A rasist
This is the problem these days, I’m fat, it never once crossed my mind that it would offend me, some folk make it their mission in life to be offended
agree with that filo but it does upset and offend a lot of people
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Here's the poster boy of the Fat Lads Alliance.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1C1E/production/_112889170_tv061938129.jpg)
is it ok to call out fat people what if your words drove someone who has eating disorder to harm themself? Is it ok to cherry pick what you say is ok? Does this not make you as bad as
A rasist
Fat people haven’t been marginalised or persecuted for years because of their genetics.
On that point I beg to differ, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been called a fat bas**rd, (not that it bothers me), and I know for a fact I was turned down in a job application after the interview because of being fat, despite being the best and most experienced candidate, to the point that I knew more than the interviewer about the job
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So, BST, Sydney, Wilts, Macho and all, where are we going with this? Genuine question.
Really, I don't know DBR - but it does feel like an epoch changing moment to me - as the late 1960's were.
After Covid things are going to be different. I can't tell you if they will be better or worse but I am pretty sure they will be different.
These protests have highlighted the cracks, divisions, prejudices in society - and that a government that has succeed by exploiting them, appears neither able or willing to heal them.
I think so too and there isn't a magic wand, I'm sure we wish there were. Any government would have a difficult task with this however we shouldn't shirk away from it being our problem. We all have responsibility to play our part however we can. Even if its trying to educate. Hopefully everyone who reads this forum will have challenged themselves and be open to learning and understanding.
The football is the thing that brings us together. Should we be taking positive action rather than leaving it the the club, the EFL, the FA etc?
We know the club has a policy on dealing with racist behaviour and advice for fans who encounter it but shouldn't we be taking on an active role in supporting a zero tolerance stance? I just think it's too easy to stand behind a banner, wear a T Shirt on a day and hope everything will be fine.
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I’ve just read your point from this morning bpoolrover
I’m with you on this
People today get upset because they can’t get upset and that upsets them which upsets them further
This is not undermining the fact that all forms of racism whether it be black on black white on black or black on white which does actually occur is not absolutely terrible and abhorrent but some people actually go out of their way these days to find any reason to feel aggrieved
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Racism is calling someone because of there colour ect. He is calling people because of the way they look, you can’t just pick and choose what suits and “fat” people have been shamed for years and years as you well no
Bpool.
I get that you have a determination to choose very odd hills to die on, but drawing a connection between belittling someone because of the colour they are born, and belittling someone who is clearly incapable of controlling his ale intake, to the point that he would piss on a memorial to a terrorist victim is a new standard even for you.
The point is, of course, that the FLA would like to see themselves as some sort of glamorous Knights of St George. What they actually are, are the pathetic nothings, typified by that bell end in the photo.
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It’s not to do with the fla it’s to do with the word fat if everybody goes around saying it then potentially your upsetting offending tens of millions of people, like racists you are judging people by how they look
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Donnybaz you’re 100% right about there needing to be zero tolerance. Up until I moved 18 months ago I was at nearly every home and a lot of away games
Can you tell me when was the last time you heard any racist comments at the Keepmoat. I used to stand in the south stand and I am genuinely struggling to recall any
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Donnybaz you’re 100% right about there needing to be zero tolerance. Up until I moved 18 months ago I was at nearly every home and a lot of away games
Can you tell me when was the last time you heard any racist comments at the Keepmoat. I used to stand in the south stand and I am genuinely struggling to recall any
Tend to agree but we've heard people say they have encountered it, so we've got to be prepared to deal with it, rather than stand aside and think it's someone else's responsibility to deal with it. Everyone entering that stadium needs to know what is expected of them, the consequences and their responsibilities in challenging it and reporting it in the right manner. But its got to be a message from us, the fans. We need to make sure folk feel empowered and comfortable enough to take the right action without getting into conflict. Maybe easier said than done but we should be doing more.
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So, BST, Sydney, Wilts, Macho and all, where are we going with this? Genuine question.
I honestly couldn't tell you. The pushback we're seeing was inevitable really, as are the attempts to make it more about statues and sitcoms than the actual real issues. Whether that pushback will successfully derail the movement, I can't say, but it does feel like a watershed moment. As more people take an anti-racist - rather than simply non-racist - stance, a lot of people are going to have to accept some uncomfortable home truths about themselves and their culture. Whether we as a country are mature enough to accept them, or whether we'll just blame it all on those troublemaking black folk with a chip on their shoulder, I can't say. Some of the responses on here are truly depressing, which is why I don't post as much anymore (until recently, at least, as this issue is one my family deals with every day), but the younger generation is giving me hope.
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Phil, I have attended every home and away matches over the last few years, the matches there has been any trouble (which have been very few) have been predictable being either local derby's or against the bigger teams, and are attended let's say by people who are not regular supporters hoping for a bit of action.
The norm is no problems at all, anything else an exception, and I have to say at our level the opposition supporters I have seen are much the same.
I have heard no racial chants even at one game when some said there was some I was unaware of it, unless you count you set of Yorkshire B*****D's as racial, which seems to be the standard chant of the opposition.
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So the illegal raves, the lack of respect for the law of the land, the general lack of discipline and respect for others property and authority gives you hope Macho does it?
Forget left or Right, forget black and white, lot's of the young are ferrel, and the non acceptance of democratic election results and constant undermining of government and authority is reaping the results of their labours.
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So, BST, Sydney, Wilts, Macho and all, where are we going with this? Genuine question.
I honestly couldn't tell you. The pushback we're seeing was inevitable really, as are the attempts to make it more about statues and sitcoms than the actual real issues. Whether that pushback will successfully derail the movement, I can't say, but it does feel like a watershed moment. As more people take an anti-racist - rather than simply non-racist - stance, a lot of people are going to have to accept some uncomfortable home truths about themselves and their culture. Whether we as a country are mature enough to accept them, or whether we'll just blame it all on those troublemaking black folk with a chip on their shoulder, I can't say. Some of the responses on here are truly depressing, which is why I don't post as much anymore (until recently, at least, as this issue is one my family deals with every day), but the younger generation is giving me hope.
Yes and maybe would should start tight here, right now. Nobody should be afraid to post on this forum but we have to be prepared to be challenged, without resorting to name calling or making assumptions about folks beliefs and values. We can still be passionate but also respectful.
As you say, talking about Fawlty Towers or talking about our history of players and managers from different backgrounds is missing the point somewhat.
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Donnybaz you’re 100% right about there needing to be zero tolerance. Up until I moved 18 months ago I was at nearly every home and a lot of away games
Can you tell me when was the last time you heard any racist comments at the Keepmoat. I used to stand in the south stand and I am genuinely struggling to recall any
Phil, I posted recently about not hearing racist chants at Rovers games for many years.
Someone posted that they had heard some but when I asked whether they had reported it I didn’t get a response.
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It’s not to do with the fla it’s to do with the word fat if everybody goes around saying it then potentially your upsetting offending tens of millions of people, like racists you are judging people by how they look
What Politically Correct term do you suggest we use instead of 'fat' so as not to offend all those tens of millions of people?
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Why would anyone need to draw attention to whether someone is fat or not?
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Racism is calling someone because of there colour ect. He is calling people because of the way they look, you can’t just pick and choose what suits and “fat” people have been shamed for years and years as you well no
Can't disagree with anything there bpool. Equality is equality.
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So, BST, Sydney, Wilts, Macho and all, where are we going with this? Genuine question.
Really, I don't know DBR - but it does feel like an epoch changing moment to me - as the late 1960's were.
After Covid things are going to be different. I can't tell you if they will be better or worse but I am pretty sure they will be different.
These protests have highlighted the cracks, divisions, prejudices in society - and that a government that has succeed by exploiting them, appears neither able or willing to heal them.
I think so too and there isn't a magic wand, I'm sure we wish there were. Any government would have a difficult task with this however we shouldn't shirk away from it being our problem. We all have responsibility to play our part however we can. Even if its trying to educate. Hopefully everyone who reads this forum will have challenged themselves and be open to learning and understanding.
The football is the thing that brings us together. Should we be taking positive action rather than leaving it the the club, the EFL, the FA etc?
We know the club has a policy on dealing with racist behaviour and advice for fans who encounter it but shouldn't we be taking on an active role in supporting a zero tolerance stance? I just think it's too easy to stand behind a banner, wear a T Shirt on a day and hope everything will be fine.
Yes, I agree with everything you have written there DBR. We, as a club, supporters in the ground, posters on this forum and as individuals, it is up to us to act responsibly and call out racism where we see it. I certainly wouldn't knock anyone with a banner or a t-shirt though - any positive move is a good move and you need to start from somewhere.
I do think though we should give praise where it is due. I wrote recently on another thread where I think Rovers should be proud of their record at tackling racism. From playing Charlie Williams to appointing Darren Moore - and standing by him in that dodgy period before Christmas they lead by example.
Nor should this forum. In that same dodgy period there were some very spurious comments from some posters that were quickly shot down.
There is a long way for society to go but, in my experience, Doncaster Rovers are nearer the front of the queue than the back.
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Why would anyone need to draw attention to whether someone is fat or not?
It's a descriptive term, just as 'thin' is. I'm just asking the person who's raised this issue how they would convey that description to someone else without offending anyone.
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Why would anyone need to draw attention to whether someone is fat or not?
It's a descriptive term, just as 'thin' is. I'm just asking the person who's raised this issue how they would convey that description to someone else without offending anyone.
And I am saying why would he need to do so.
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Why would anyone need to draw attention to whether someone is fat or not?
It's a descriptive term, just as 'thin' is. I'm just asking the person who's raised this issue how they would convey that description to someone else without offending anyone.
And I am saying why would he need to do so.
Go on then, how would you answer the question 'Who sang 'Vindaloo''? Or 'Lard is a type of what?'
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Is that relevant to this particular discussion?
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Is that relevant to this particular discussion?
Bpool thinks it is. That's why I'm asking him.
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I haven’t seen Blackpool mention vindaloo.
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I h@vent seen Blackpool mention vindaloo.
I don't care what you've sen him mention.
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But why are you asking him what words he would use to draw attention to someone who is overweight.
Why would he need to do that.
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But why are you asking him what words he would use to draw attention to someone who is overweight.
Why would he need to do that.
I haven't said that. I asked him what inoffensive word we should use instead of the word 'fat' as he seems to object to it. Nothing to do with drawing attention to anyone at all. Clear? Good.
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Glyn, not sure where you’re going with this - BST started by calling the guy in the picture “fat”, which wasn’t necessary in that context as a descriptive term as there wasn’t anyone else in the picture so no need to highlight any distinguishing features. I can see the point of people questioning why it was needed.
What I object to is anyone trying to suggest that any offence or abuse towards fat people is in remotely the same ballpark as racism. How anyone could really think that baffles me.
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But why are you asking him what words he would use to draw attention to someone who is overweight.
Why would he need to do that.
I haven't said that. I asked him what inoffensive word we should use instead of the word 'fat' as he seems to object to it. Nothing to do with drawing attention to anyone at all. Clear? Good.
But Blackpool was saying it was wrong to use the word fat to draw attention to the man in the picture so why would he need to use another word to draw attention to that man.
Why not just say “that man”.
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But why are you asking him what words he would use to draw attention to someone who is overweight.
Why would he need to do that.
I haven't said that. I asked him what inoffensive word we should use instead of the word 'fat' as he seems to object to it. Nothing to do with drawing attention to anyone at all. Clear? Good.
But Blackpool was saying it was wrong to use the word fat to draw attention to the man in the picture so why would he need to use another word to draw attention to that man.
Why not just say “that man”.
Didnt the group self identify as the Fat Lads Alliance?
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But why are you asking him what words he would use to draw attention to someone who is overweight.
Why would he need to do that.
I haven't said that. I asked him what inoffensive word we should use instead of the word 'fat' as he seems to object to it. Nothing to do with drawing attention to anyone at all. Clear? Good.
But Blackpool was saying it was wrong to use the word fat to draw attention to the man in the picture so why would he need to use another word to draw attention to that man.
Why not just say “that man”.
Not a great way to describe him to the police though, is it? If they'd asked what he looked like, would you have ignored his body shape altogether and just let them guess? What is the politically correct way of doing it?
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Glyn, not sure where you’re going with this - BST started by calling the guy in the picture “fat”, which wasn’t necessary in that context as a descriptive term as there wasn’t anyone else in the picture so no need to highlight any distinguishing features. I can see the point of people questioning why it was needed.
What I object to is anyone trying to suggest that any offence or abuse towards fat people is in remotely the same ballpark as racism. How anyone could really think that baffles me.
Yes, but then bpool himself widened it all out to tens of millions of people, not just the one in the photo.
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Good job I didn't quote hound before he deleted his last post otherwise I'd have got accused of editing his posts again.
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It’s not to do with the fla it’s to do with the word fat if everybody goes around saying it then potentially your upsetting offending tens of millions of people, like racists you are judging people by how they look
What Politically Correct term do you suggest we use instead of 'fat' so as not to offend all those tens of millions of people? You don’t have to refer to someone using there weight do you? Then there is no political correctness,in the post I referred to it was fat lads alliance so was said in a derogatory way to offend
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Glyn, not sure where you’re going with this - BST started by calling the guy in the picture “fat”, which wasn’t necessary in that context as a descriptive term as there wasn’t anyone else in the picture so no need to highlight any distinguishing features. I can see the point of people questioning why it was needed.
What I object to is anyone trying to suggest that any offence or abuse towards fat people is in remotely the same ballpark as racism. How anyone could really think that baffles me.
Yes, but then bpool himself widened it all out to tens of millions of people, not just the one in the photo.
yes because the post was fat lads alliance, and it is still referring to someone in a not nice way because of the way they look
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Good job I didn't quote hound before he deleted his last post otherwise I'd have got accused of editing his posts again.
I didn’t know I needed permission to change my mind about what I wanted to say.
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Glyn, not sure where you’re going with this - BST started by calling the guy in the picture “fat”, which wasn’t necessary in that context as a descriptive term as there wasn’t anyone else in the picture so no need to highlight any distinguishing features. I can see the point of people questioning why it was needed.
What I object to is anyone trying to suggest that any offence or abuse towards fat people is in remotely the same ballpark as racism. How anyone could really think that baffles me.
Yes, but then bpool himself widened it all out to tens of millions of people, not just the one in the photo.
yes because the post was fat lads alliance, and it is still referring to someone in a not nice way because of the way they look
How would you describe someone of that body shape without causing offence?
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Good job I didn't quote hound before he deleted his last post otherwise I'd have got accused of editing his posts again.
I didn’t know I needed permission to change my mind about what I wanted to say.
Who said anything about permission? But this is exactly what happened before - I quoted you and then you deleted your post that I quoted. And then accused me of editing your posts.
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I think the portly gentleman urinating on or near the memorial has more on his plate than to worry about being called fat.
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Good job I didn't quote hound before he deleted his last post otherwise I'd have got accused of editing his posts again.
I didn’t know I needed permission to change my mind about what I wanted to say.
Who said anything about permission? But this is exactly what happened before - I quoted you and then you deleted your post that I quoted. And then accused me of editing your posts.
Really?
It was there for all to see.
You added a word to my post.
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I think the portly gentleman urinating on or near the memorial has more on his plate than to worry about being called fat. So if a black person committed a crime it would be ok to call him on his colour because he has more on his plate?
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It is disgusting what he did I no way am I condoning or defending what he did
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He's a fat Kitson that had a piss next to a memorial that he travelled to defend against a baying mob of non white English.
The non white English people didn't turn up so this fat Kitson and his other fat Kitson mates decided to have a ruck with old bill because the euros aren't on.
So what's a fat, neo nazi, racist useless Kitson supposed to do when there's no footy on?
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He's a fat Kitson that had a piss next to a memorial that he travelled to defend against a baying mob of non white English.
The non white English people didn't turn up so this fat Kitson and his other fat Kitson mates decided to have a ruck with old bill because the euros aren't on.
So what's a fat, neo nazi, racist useless Kitson supposed to do when there's no footy on?
Fatist!
🤪🤪🤪
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He's a fat Kitson that had a piss next to a memorial that he travelled to defend against a baying mob of non white English.
The non white English people didn't turn up so this fat Kitson and his other fat Kitson mates decided to have a ruck with old bill because the euros aren't on.
So what's a fat, neo nazi, racist useless Kitson supposed to do when there's no footy on?
Fatist!
🤪🤪🤪
I'm a fat Kitsonist. You're just fat, you're not a Kitson so you're OK 😉😂
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He's a fat Kitson that had a piss next to a memorial that he travelled to defend against a baying mob of non white English.
The non white English people didn't turn up so this fat Kitson and his other fat Kitson mates decided to have a ruck with old bill because the euros aren't on.
So what's a fat, neo nazi, racist useless Kitson supposed to do when there's no footy on?
Fatist!
🤪🤪🤪
I'm a fat Kitsonist. You're just fat, you're not a Kitson so you're OK 😉😂
Filo you're screwed mate 🤣
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Love this it's a right laugh, I hope the same people disgusted at any racial name calling will remember when calling older people gammon, racial bigots etc. on other threads.
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BLM protesters = Noble, marching for a just and right cause.
"Rent 'a' mob" attached to BLM protesters = Scumbag d*ckheads.
Far right mob = Scumbag d*ckheads.
IMO that's a fair and balanced view.
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He's a fat Kitson that had a piss next to a memorial that he travelled to defend against a baying mob of non white English.
The non white English people didn't turn up so this fat Kitson and his other fat Kitson mates decided to have a ruck with old bill because the euros aren't on.
So what's a fat, neo nazi, racist useless Kitson supposed to do when there's no footy on?
Fatist!
🤪🤪🤪
I'm a fat Kitsonist. You're just fat, you're not a Kitson so you're OK 😉😂
Oh I don’t know, I’ve been called a Kitson a fair few times over the years 😂😂😂
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Love this it's a right laugh, I hope the same people disgusted at any racial name calling will remember when calling older people gammon, racial bigots etc. on other threads.
Gammon isn't a term rooted in centuries of oppression and murder.
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No Macho I agree, it is a modern derogatory term used by younger ignorant people to describe older people they don't agree with. I am fully aware of the meaning and insult intended especially when linked to wishing the same people dead which has also been mentioned by ignorant, self centred, younger people on this forum.
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Love this it's a right laugh, I hope the same people disgusted at any racial name calling will remember when calling older people gammon, racial bigots etc. on other threads.
Gammon isn't a term rooted in centuries of oppression and murder.
are you allowed to be racist or offensive if it’s a new word then?
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Love this it's a right laugh, I hope the same people disgusted at any racial name calling will remember when calling older people gammon, racial bigots etc. on other threads.
Gammon isn't a term rooted in centuries of oppression and murder.
are you allowed to be racist or offensive if it’s a new word then?
It's not a racist term. It comes from when racists go on angry, racist rants and turn a shade of pink. Don't be an angry racist, don't get called a gammon. Works for me.
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Love this it's a right laugh, I hope the same people disgusted at any racial name calling will remember when calling older people gammon, racial bigots etc. on other threads.
What do you call people who keep insulting others by calling them liberal leftie elitists?
I'm mulling over 'fascist bullyboys' myself. :silly:
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
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Hound just read your thread from the 14th. I was waiting for something similar if I’d got a response
If people are upset by it (and they should be) then challenge it
If you don’t then you’re not really upset. I don’t feel it has any thing to do with being nervous. I’m quite sure if someone challenged racism and got abuse there would be lots of others who would support them
I still maintain I’ve not heard any racism in the south stand and I used to stand central
I suppose there could be an argument that it’s maybe more prevalent in the east and south stands where more people my age (58+) sit who are maybe less tolerant
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https://medium.com/@burntoakboy/the-new-cultural-revolution-efa0c84ba966
An interesting read
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Ldr.
You might want to do a bit of background reading on the author of that piece.
Brendan O'Neil is a career revolutionary. He started off as a Marxist. Then he went so far off the Far Left spectrum he re-appeared on the Far-Right as a Revolutionary Libertarian.
One thing has remained constant.
He wants society to go up in flames and be re-born.
What he is doing in that article is trying to wind up people on the Right. He WANTS the Culture War. He wants it to consume everyone.
Notice how he structures the piece.
It starts with reasonable tut-tutting about vandalism. And then he increases the ante all the way through, until he gets to the real purpose.
Which is putting forward the terrifying article written by Senator Tom Cotton as something reasonable.
Senator Cotton (a SENATOR for f**ks sake!) wrote an Op-Ed in the New York Times calling for the US Army to be let loose to quell the BLM protests.
THAT is what O'Neil wants. Because it puts society one step closer to going up totally in flames.
And that is what that article is about. If you don't know the context, by the time you get to that part you are nodding furiously and saying, "I agree, it IS disgraceful that NYT journalists rebelled against an article that proposed us going a step closer to Civil War."
There are people on both sides of this issue that want to recruit people to help them bring down society. Unless you want that to happen, you need to think about whether you want to help them.
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I don't read or watch anything with his name attached, he popped down here a couple of time spouting rubbish.
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https://medium.com/@burntoakboy/the-new-cultural-revolution-efa0c84ba966
An interesting read
Interesting in that there's a lot of whataboutisms in there. Reminds me of this meme....
(https://i.imgur.com/VdGLrBL.jpg)
As to what has happened to this country? I give you....
(https://i.imgur.com/KQgVYpd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MKmtD8T.jpg)
When influential people and an influential media incite people like that there is little wonder that racism appears to be on the increase. Now what does propaganda like that, aimed aagainst foreigners, remind me of? Oh yes, I remember - and that didn't end at all well for the people lured into believing it!
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Donnybazrover asked where to from here of several of us, this for a start
Lammy says Johnson should implement existing racism inquiry recommendations ahead of ordering new one
In his Today programme interview this morning (see 9.19am) David Lammy, the shadow justice secretary, said that if Boris Johnson were serious about wanting to address racial inequalities, he should implement the recommendations of the many reviews already sitting on shelves in Westminster instead of ordering a new inquiry.
Helpfully, he itemised some of them, starting with a reference to the review he himself led into the way BAME people are treated by the criminal justice system. David Cameron appointed Lammy to head the review when he was PM, and it reported to Theresa May’s government inn 2017.
Lammy said:
I made 35 specific recommendations in the Lammy review (pdf). Implement them.
There are 110 recommendations in the Angiolini review (pdf) into deaths into police custody. Implement them.
There are 30 recommendations in the Home Office review (pdf) into the Windrush scandal. Implement them.
Twenty six into Baroness McGregor’s review (pdf) into workplace discrimination. Implement them.
That’s what Boris has to do. And the Black Lives protests can stop and we can get on with dealing with the coronavirus.
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More racist propaganda for the gullible
(https://i.imgur.com/g5bLcRL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MYv1yFA.png)
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That's more than a fair point Sydney. This is one of the reasons why I think we really do need reform of our political system.
I think the Brexit decision was a huge one and despite what some might have us believe, it wasn't all about immigration etc. But for me, as important as that decision was, we also need to get our own act together if we are to have an effective political system. We've seen the worst of politics/politicians in recent times under a system being stretched to beyond its limits, going from one crisis to another. There must be hundreds of papers on the shelves of Whitehall that have not been acted upon or reviewed as they should be. The media/social media whip everything up into a crisis and demand this that and t'other.
Let's start with Westminster and the Houses of power. The Chambers etc are museum pieces and are no longer fit for purpose. Yes, 'The home of Democracy', 100s of years of tradition will never be forgotten but come on, time to modernise.
The discussions need to continue about reform of the system of representation, and whether than needs more devolved power to the regions etc. Do we really need this many MPs who claim to represent their constituencies but don"t??
I won't drivel on but you know where I'm coming from.
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Hopefully the Daily Express will die away Kato.
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Hopefully the Daily Express will die away Kato.
Hopefully ALL the current print media will die
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That "They are all at it, so damn them all" approach is THE most dangerous one to have taken root recently.
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
I would suggest you would be offended if your we are looney leftie. If you were a Tory fanboy then probably not.
Maybe if you found one of each to ask?
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Not now kato. Nice cartoon with some genuine sentiment
I do take issue with the sentences black lives are being treated as expendable by the police and government and we need to focus now because the situation has got out of control
Can I please just remind people that the recent incidents of police being involved in the death of black people was in the USA
In case some people have forgotten we actually live in the United Kingdom
It’s totally unfair and unwarranted to associate the police in the United Kingdom with what’s occurring in the USA
The cultural situation is absolutely miles apart between the USA and United Kingdom
There are obviously issues here but let’s put this in perspective
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Well said Phil.
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
I would suggest you would be offended if your we are looney leftie. If you were a Tory fanboy then probably not.
Maybe if you found one of each to ask?
I don’t understand what you are saying there wilts?
“If your we are loony leftie”?
Sorry, I don’t get that at all.
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Not now kato. Nice cartoon with some genuine sentiment
I do take issue with the sentences black lives are being treated as expendable by the police and government and we need to focus now because the situation has got out of control
Can I please just remind people that the recent incidents of police being involved in the death of black people was in the USA
In case some people have forgotten we actually live in the United Kingdom
It’s totally unfair and unwarranted to associate the police in the United Kingdom with what’s occurring in the USA
The cultural situation is absolutely miles apart between the USA and United Kingdom
There are obviously issues here but let’s put this in perspective
I don't think you need to remind anyone here Phil it's a straw man argument, but there is no complacancy required either as UK police do stop and search more bame people than the rest of society, which is racism. With an openly racist PM it's going to be difficult to stop.
'More BAME people likely to be targeted' under relaxed stop-and-search rules
This article is more than 7 months old
Official report finds disparity in use of tactic and says this may be partly down to discrimination by officers''
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/oct/18/more-bame-people-likely-to-be-targeted-under-relaxed-stop-and-search-rules
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Not now kato. Nice cartoon with some genuine sentiment
I do take issue with the sentences black lives are being treated as expendable by the police and government and we need to focus now because the situation has got out of control
Can I please just remind people that the recent incidents of police being involved in the death of black people was in the USA
In case some people have forgotten we actually live in the United Kingdom
It’s totally unfair and unwarranted to associate the police in the United Kingdom with what’s occurring in the USA
The cultural situation is absolutely miles apart between the USA and United Kingdom
There are obviously issues here but let’s put this in perspective
I think you're completely missing the point Phil, (as indeed are so many - possibly fueled by the reporting in the media). This isn't about the police in America killing a black man, it's about so much more than that. The killing of Floyd was simply the straw that broke the camels back on rampant racial prejudice.
Yes, it's more ingrained in the US; but it's certainly a big issue here too - fueled by a media with an agenda as I've shown above. There's already been a review in this country, why do we need another? Oh, I know, so Johnson can appear to be doing something in the hope that the problem will go away! I doubt now that it will.
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The problem is according to reports knife crime is higher with people in BAME communities so would that naturally not require more stop and search?
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Tricky one though bpool. Why do they carry knives, why are many more black people in society involved in crime etc? Get to the root cause to address the issue. Even then, it's a poor generalisation given so many black people just want normal lives without that feeling. It's not nice being picked on by police for a reason outside your control.
I had it by some idiot because I didn't look like I should have the car I had. He even tried accusing me of hitting the car behind when I pulled in and had it on camera. He did not like it when I told he him he thus had to show me (which he couldn't as it didn't happen). Imagine being an honest black person penalised for what others say (probably feels like insinuation you're a racist for saying the complete opposite).
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
I class them all the same so not really worth commenting on is it? A dick is a dick regardless of its skin colour.
Are you really comparing hundreds of thousands protesting systemic racism - with an unfortunate minority of violent individuals - to a few thousand white supremacists, the vast majority of whom went out with the explicit intention of causing violence?
They are not the same. If you genuinely think that you are part of the problem. Full stop.
Disagree, at the point somebody turns violent and none peaceful they've lost the point of their protest. Violence shouldn't be accepted in any form and we should be treating people the same regardless. If I'm part of the problem we really are in trouble.
'They are all the same' is lazy commentary when it is obvious they are not. Maybe it is intended to cast doubt rather than actually saying 'I support the right wing thuggery?' it doesn't make a lot of sense.
That's a pretty twisted interpretation (as usual from you). Are you as such saying that it's ok for the protests last week to be violent but not yesterdays?
As for your second point that's pretty offensive. It is ok to criticise something without supporting the alternate view. Something many seem to fail to realise. You can criticise the actions of any person without being racist or agreeing with the contrasting view.
Who are all the same you didn't say bfyp? Just remember the far right is politically closer to the team you support than any left organisation which is why presumably a lot lot og them hopped over the fence to become faragists.
Took me a while to respond as had far more pressing things yesterday to think about.
I think it was obvious, a violent idiot is a violent idiot... The so called far right protests are allowed as much as any other (I find it hard for anyone to agree with them) but read what I responded to and it was fairly obvious to me.
Note I don't support a team politically I don't know how many times that has to be said. I agree and disagree with many various things.
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The problem is according to reports knife crime is higher with people in BAME communities so would that naturally not require more stop and search?
I can't find statistics on that bp maybe you have some to hand bp
The places knife crime is rising fastest
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49923129
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Quite surprised to see a lack of criticism on here about the far right thugs "defending" monuments in London by pulling nazi salutes in front of them, pissing on them, and having tearups with police. BLM didn't even show up for this exact reason. Oddly quiet on here. I wonder white.
I class them all the same so not really worth commenting on is it? A dick is a dick regardless of its skin colour.
Are you really comparing hundreds of thousands protesting systemic racism - with an unfortunate minority of violent individuals - to a few thousand white supremacists, the vast majority of whom went out with the explicit intention of causing violence?
They are not the same. If you genuinely think that you are part of the problem. Full stop.
Disagree, at the point somebody turns violent and none peaceful they've lost the point of their protest. Violence shouldn't be accepted in any form and we should be treating people the same regardless. If I'm part of the problem we really are in trouble.
'They are all the same' is lazy commentary when it is obvious they are not. Maybe it is intended to cast doubt rather than actually saying 'I support the right wing thuggery?' it doesn't make a lot of sense.
That's a pretty twisted interpretation (as usual from you). Are you as such saying that it's ok for the protests last week to be violent but not yesterdays?
As for your second point that's pretty offensive. It is ok to criticise something without supporting the alternate view. Something many seem to fail to realise. You can criticise the actions of any person without being racist or agreeing with the contrasting view.
Who are all the same you didn't say bfyp? Just remember the far right is politically closer to the team you support than any left organisation which is why presumably a lot lot og them hopped over the fence to become faragists.
Took me a while to respond as had far more pressing things yesterday to think about.
I think it was obvious, a violent idiot is a violent idiot... The so called far right protests are allowed as much as any other (I find it hard for anyone to agree with them) but read what I responded to and it was fairly obvious to me.
Note I don't support a team politically I don't know how many times that has to be said. I agree and disagree with many various things.
Apologies bfyp, I should have said party not team. I agree that one violent idiot can be the same as another but I go back to what I said, blm supporters didn't in the vast majority go to fight they went to protest whereas the majority of the far right protesters only went to fight and cause trouble, bourne out by the resulting reporting across the media to say they are all the same implies that all protesters from both goups were acting in the same way.
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I wouldn't disagree the majority of those at the weekend appeared violent and clearly a bigger proportion than the previous protests.
We cannot though have equality when it suits us, as I mentioned the root cause of the issue is far more important, a crime committed is a crime committed it doesn't matter who committed it.
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I agree that this latest sleight of violence was mainly down to the idiotic far right If not solely
I would suggest that the initial violence and damage was probably not
The far right didn’t pull down a statue in Bristol or spray graffiti on historic statues
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We cannot make assumptions. The BLM protests have if nothing else, highlighted weaknesses in what we have assumed is not our problem, it's USAs problem etc. UK and Australian citizens have Been asking themselves, what have we done to deserve this?
The question is, as Sydney and others have pointed its what HAVEN'T we done that we should have done to deliver on promises made after previous investigations and reviews. Time tells us that Society is fairer and more equal but there's alot more to be done.
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The problem is according to reports knife crime is higher with people in BAME communities so would that naturally not require more stop and search?
I can't find statistics on that bp maybe you have some to hand bp
The places knife crime is rising fastest
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-49923129
I should have stated in London my mistake
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Tricky one though bpool. Why do they carry knives, why are many more black people in society involved in crime etc? Get to the root cause to address the issue. Even then, it's a poor generalisation given so many black people just want normal lives without that feeling. It's not nice being picked on by police for a reason outside your control.
I had it by some idiot because I didn't look like I should have the car I had. He even tried accusing me of hitting the car behind when I pulled in and had it on camera. He did not like it when I told he him he thus had to show me (which he couldn't as it didn't happen). Imagine being an honest black person penalised for what others say (probably feels like insinuation you're a racist for saying the complete opposite). 100 percent agree to try get to the root of it, the problem is how to do that
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
I would suggest you would be offended if your we are looney leftie. If you were a Tory fanboy then probably not.
Maybe if you found one of each to ask?
I don’t understand what you are saying there wilts?
“If your we are loony leftie”?
Sorry, I don’t get that at all.
Apologies hound, quick post in my lunch break (as this is during a tea break whilst doing the garden). It should have said:
I would suggest you would be offended (being called a Tory Fanboy if your were a looney leftie. If you were a Tory fanboy then probably not.
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I agree that this latest sleight of violence was mainly down to the idiotic far right If not solely
I would suggest that the initial violence and damage was probably not
The far right didn’t pull down a statue in Bristol or spray graffiti on historic statues
Nor did the people in Bristol damage or spray graffiti on a War Memorial - which is maybe 10 yards from a statute they pulled down.
So are the far-right defending War Memorials - or memorials of slave traders?
And I think you will find plenty of far-right graffiti and damage to memorials:
https://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/18342424.police-clean-far-right-graffiti/
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/grave-of-karl-marx-vandalised-in-suspected-far-right-attack_uk_5c597d92e4b00187b554e33c
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
It's only unacceptable if it isn't true...
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
It's only unacceptable if it isn't true...
Double negative there pies, so not sure what you actually mean.
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Syd, is it just the Tory part of the UK you hate or all of it? and why come back?
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Syd, is it just the Tory part of the UK you hate or all of it? and why come back?
He's coming back because he wants to meet BB and myself, and get our autographs.
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OH, well worth coming back for then Steve, I don't know how he has earned such a great honour though.
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Syd, is it just the Tory part of the UK you hate or all of it? and why come back?
He's coming back because he wants to meet BB and myself, and get our autographs.
I could be lookng over your back fence right now SS :)
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Looks like the government want to kick the can down the road a bit more rather than implement recommendations from the many previous enquiries.
''The new government commission on racial inequalities is being set up by a No 10 adviser who has cast doubt on the existence of institutional racism and condemned previous inquiries for fostering a “culture of grievance”, it has emerged''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/15/dismay-over-adviser-chosen-set-up-uk-race-inequality-commission-munira-mirza
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
It's only unacceptable if it isn't true...
Double negative there pies, so not sure what you actually mean.
Ok, Hound, I'll be charitable and assume you're just being mischievous rather than not able to understand basic English. So, for clarity... it's only unacceptable to call a person a 'Tory Fanboy' if the person at whom it is aimed is not a Tory Fanboy. Happy?
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But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
It's only unacceptable if it isn't true...
Double negative there pies, so not sure what you actually mean.
Ok, Hound, I'll be charitable and assume you're just being mischievous rather than not able to understand basic English. So, for clarity... it's only unacceptable to call a person a 'Tory Fanboy' if the person at whom it is aimed is not a Tory Fanboy. Happy?
Love this it's a right laugh, I hope the same people disgusted at any racial name calling will remember when calling older people gammon, racial bigots etc. on other threads.
What do you call people who keep insulting others by calling them liberal leftie elitists?
I'm mulling over 'fascist bullyboys' myself. :silly:
I am very happy now thank you pies.
So by following that train of thought I guess it is ok to call someone a liberal leftie elitist if the person at which it is aimed isn’t a liberal leftie elitist.
I glad we got that cleared up. 🙂
-
But apparently it is ok to use the term Tory Fanboys.
Do you think that is acceptable?
It's only unacceptable if it isn't true...
Double negative there pies, so not sure what you actually mean.
Ok, Hound, I'll be charitable and assume you're just being mischievous rather than not able to understand basic English. So, for clarity... it's only unacceptable to call a person a 'Tory Fanboy' if the person at whom it is aimed is not a Tory Fanboy. Happy?
Love this it's a right laugh, I hope the same people disgusted at any racial name calling will remember when calling older people gammon, racial bigots etc. on other threads.
What do you call people who keep insulting others by calling them liberal leftie elitists?
I'm mulling over 'fascist bullyboys' myself. :silly:
I am very happy now thank you pies.
So by following that train of thought I guess it is ok to call someone a liberal leftie elitist if the person at which it is aimed isn’t a liberal leftie elitist.
I glad we got that cleared up. 🙂
That's the exact opposite of what pies said.
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Oh no it isn’t.
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I'll let pies confirm whether it is or not.
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Wow, can’t wait.
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Read it again, Hound. It's there in plain English.
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Syd, is it just the Tory part of the UK you hate or all of it? and why come back?
He's coming back because he wants to meet BB and myself, and get our autographs.
I could be lookng over your back fence right now SS :)
If ever you do Sydney, make sure you have some smelling salts with you. Have you ever seen a gargoyle sunbathing?
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Read it again, Hound. It's there in plain English.
I know pies.
I saw it first time.
GW gets so agitated when I post things so I was having a bit of fun.
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So by following that train of thought I guess it is ok to call someone a liberal leftie elitist if the person at which it is aimed isn’t a liberal leftie elitist.
None of my business wading into someone else's argument of course but I would have to say Yes.
Because that is one of the best ways of telling the reader that you (the poster) are a Tory Fanboy.
I do love being called a 'liberal leftie elite' myself. I smile and think 'I wonder how many certificates for bricklaying you have?'
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So by following that train of thought I guess it is ok to call someone a liberal leftie elitist if the person at which it is aimed isn’t a liberal leftie elitist.
None of my business wading into someone else's argument of course but I would have to say Yes.
Because that is one of the best ways of telling the reader that you (the poster) are a Tory Fanboy.
I do love being called a 'liberal leftie elite' myself. I smile and think 'I wonder how many certificates for bricklaying you have?'
Perversely wilts, I don’t think that GW would agree with you.
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So by following that train of thought I guess it is ok to call someone a liberal leftie elitist if the person at which it is aimed isn’t a liberal leftie elitist.
None of my business wading into someone else's argument of course but I would have to say Yes.
Because that is one of the best ways of telling the reader that you (the poster) are a Tory Fanboy.
I do love being called a 'liberal leftie elite' myself. I smile and think 'I wonder how many certificates for bricklaying you have?'
Perversely wilts, I don’t think that GW would agree with you.
I wouldn't know hound but I must admit I would be more worried if you agreed with me!
No offence like.
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So by following that train of thought I guess it is ok to call someone a liberal leftie elitist if the person at which it is aimed isn’t a liberal leftie elitist.
None of my business wading into someone else's argument of course but I would have to say Yes.
Because that is one of the best ways of telling the reader that you (the poster) are a Tory Fanboy.
I do love being called a 'liberal leftie elite' myself. I smile and think 'I wonder how many certificates for bricklaying you have?'
Perversely wilts, I don’t think that GW would agree with you.
I wouldn't know hound but I must admit I would be more worried if you agreed with me!
No offence like.
We have agreed on things in the past but I won’t let on if you don’t.
No offence taken by the way.
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https://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/take-a-good-hard-look-at-the-new-britain-we-all-now-live-in/?fbclid=IwAR04aA1bhBdllYQwCDhwst6loUCit2NGKhd36LVU2lkRHitqF72GmVn0DAg
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Thanks for the link Kato, most the the points in it could be made into charges against johnson, there has to culpability
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Also, added to that report is the sombre fact that football and all forms of entertainment will probably never be the same again.
Let's all just f*cking hang ourselves.
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Pies. The way things are going and the way people are now starting to think in this 21st century I would suggest that it’s not acceptable at any time to call anyone anything even if they are what they’re called
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Phil, how dare you call him “pies”.
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Probably i_ateallthepies would say - as Rashford said when told Han-cog had praised him but called him "Daniel Rashford" - Ive been called worse
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What has happened to this country is a seriously apt question....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-penny-mordaunt-royal-yachts-overseas-aid-money-a9572376.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3j9Rmu6r9okZ88IC3GBLasCgEzQy0TY8Pzy3Krair2l8NOlQiKhnEUiCY#Echobox=1592472997
What on earth have we become to allow people like this anywhere near government? Fcuk the poor, fcuk the starving, fcuk people, let's build the queen a couple of boats!
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They really don't get it do they?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53093244
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Billy rightly or wrongly agree or disagree like everyone else in this country he is allowed an opinion
Are we now saying that anyone who has an opinion different to anyone or any organisation charity or group can’t have a say
Opinion is what democracy is built upon
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I'm saying he simply doesn't get it. Whatever his opinion, he doesn't get why people feel the need to express themselves in this way.
And he also doesn't get the history. If he did, he'd know the background and not make idiotic, crass comments like saying it looks like subjugation.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/globalnews.ca/news/3769534/martin-luther-king-jr-take-a-knee-history/amp/
Taking a knee is a sign of respect. Raab would not understand that. Read his book and see how he holds lower classes in utter contempt.
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BST, would you say that anyone who refused to “take the knee” is lacking in respect.
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What would the reaction be if a premiership player took the James Maclean stance and insisted on for example a shirt with “all lives matter”
Before anyone starts slating me I’m just asking the question to continue the debate
It would take a lot of bottle for anyone to do it
I totally disagree with Maclean’s stance but I do give him credit for having the nerve to do it
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Hound/Phil
I'd say they are showing their beliefs. People can judge them on that.
Just like if a player starting laughing and joking during a minute silence before a game. They'd be showing their beliefs and you can judge them on that.
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BST, would you say that anyone who refused to “take the knee” is lacking in respect.
I know you aren't asking me mate but I wanted to "chime in", as it were.
For me, I don't think things like this should be mandatory because then it dilutes the intent and message. I respect everyone "taking the knee" or raising a fist or whatever it may be and I think the display at the start of the Villa game last night for instance was terrific. But people who don't do it shouldn't be vilified at all. I personally think it is a bit different to someone laughing and joking during a minute's silence as well, as that shows obvious contempt.
This is all different to what Raab has said today though He has displayed a massive amount of ignorance with that comment and clearly a contempt for the movement in comparing it to a pop culture thing. It's ridiculous for a high-ranking cabinet member - the Foreign Secretary no less - to not have any idea where this very well known symbol of racial oppression began. It is one of the main things Boris Johnson's good mate and ally Donald Trump has been banging on about for the entire duration of his Presidency!
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The Tories
reticent to bend a knee for Black Lives Matter - but quick to bend planning rules for billionaire property developers and No10 'advisors'
https://twitter.com/David__Osland/status/1273611295212933122
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BST, would you say that anyone who refused to “take the knee” is lacking in respect.
I know you aren't asking me mate but I wanted to "chime in", as it were.
For me, I don't think things like this should be mandatory because then it dilutes the intent and message. I respect everyone "taking the knee" or raising a fist or whatever it may be and I think the display at the start of the Villa game last night for instance was terrific. But people who don't do it shouldn't be vilified at all. I personally think it is a bit different to someone laughing and joking during a minute's silence as well, as that shows obvious contempt.
This is all different to what Raab has said today though He has displayed a massive amount of ignorance with that comment and clearly a contempt for the movement in comparing it to a pop culture thing. It's ridiculous for a high-ranking cabinet member - the Foreign Secretary no less - to not have any idea where this very well known symbol of racial oppression began. It is one of the main things Boris Johnson's good mate and ally Donald Trump has been banging on about for the entire duration of his Presidency!
RA, it is good to hear another opinion on my question.
Personally, I agree with you that it shouldn’t be mandatory to kneel but I also think that in certain situations people could be classed as being racist if they didn’t do it.
I read that police officers who don’t kneel when in front of crowds of BLM supporters could become targets for abuse themselves, which in my opinion is wrong.
It could be argued that if they were in front of a right wing rally that they should do the Nazi salute.
I also go with your line of thinking on the minutes silence situation.
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BST, would you say that anyone who refused to “take the knee” is lacking in respect.
I know you aren't asking me mate but I wanted to "chime in", as it were.
For me, I don't think things like this should be mandatory because then it dilutes the intent and message. I respect everyone "taking the knee" or raising a fist or whatever it may be and I think the display at the start of the Villa game last night for instance was terrific. But people who don't do it shouldn't be vilified at all. I personally think it is a bit different to someone laughing and joking during a minute's silence as well, as that shows obvious contempt.
This is all different to what Raab has said today though He has displayed a massive amount of ignorance with that comment and clearly a contempt for the movement in comparing it to a pop culture thing. It's ridiculous for a high-ranking cabinet member - the Foreign Secretary no less - to not have any idea where this very well known symbol of racial oppression began. It is one of the main things Boris Johnson's good mate and ally Donald Trump has been banging on about for the entire duration of his Presidency!
Raab is truly as thick as mince when it comes to the quality you need at the highest level.
I've noted on here before my interaction with him on a R5 call-in programme ten years or so ago when he was a humble back-bencher. He was promoting his 10 Minute Rule Bill to make strike action illegal unless 50% of members of the union (not just 50% of those voting) voted to strike. He was up on his high horse saying you undemocratic it would be to oppose that. I phoned in and pointed out that in the 2010 election, only 42% of the electorate in his constituency had voted for him and asked for his take on that. It was SUCH a blindingly obvious question, it beggars belief that he didn't have a clear, calm, logical answer. Instead, he hurriedly said "That's a different issue altogether and spoke for another 30 seconds about a different aspect of his Bill.
If someone had told me back then that a vacuous no mark like that would be the de facto PM during the height of the worst peacetime crisis for centuries, I'd have been horrified.
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Where 'taking the knee' actually comes from (Martin Luther King spoiler alert)
https://twitter.com/garyyounge/status/1273593537049825280
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If someone chooses not to take a knee when all their teammates are doing so, that is fine. But it is clearly a statement of belief in and of itself.
I accept that my "laughing and joking" example earlier was a poor one, but the above situation is the precise equivalent of a player choosing to sit in the dugout while the minute silence is being observed on Remembrance Day.
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Well Twitter is finding some much needed backbone to smack down the bas**rds who want to tip us into a race war.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/katie-hopkins-twitter-suspended-deleted-account-blue-tick-verified-a9576041.html
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So are the Tory Party. Let's see how long they both last eh
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tories-racism-islamophobia-naz-shah_uk_5eecd53cc5b634145cc1473a
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https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-leaks-report-antisemitism-racism-diane-abbott-butler-a9468521.html?amp This is from a couple of months ago it’s not like the Labour Party are perfect
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Yes, exactly the same bpool. As (checks notes) the former Chair of the Conservative Party says:
The Tory suspended this week for saying Muslim MP should go back to Pakistan was someone I raised concerns about over a year ago - I was told then she was suspended
This is the @Conservatives shambolic revolving door system of dealing with racism
https://twitter.com/SayeedaWarsi/status/1274095138466402305
For 5 years I have raised individual cases of racism within @Conservatives
The Party only ever responds and reacts after the media shine a spotlight on a case. And on the rare occasion individuals are suspended they are v quickly & quietly let back in Revolving door racism
https://twitter.com/SayeedaWarsi/status/1274097767774916610
Again, not me saying that, its the former Chair of the Conservative Party - you would think she would know.
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Both parties have issues clearly
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Why only mention the Labour party ones then?
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Why only mention the Labour party ones then?
why wouldn’t you ask wilts then the same question or Sydney or any others? All you see is posts slating the tories
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bpool. I haven't 'slated' the Tories.
I have reposted two tweets from the former Chair of the Conservative Party. Don't you think you should listen, take notice and explore why she has posted those things?
There is an actual thread on the Labour report btw.
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The price of truth....
https://www.thenational.scot/news/18530968.theresa-villiers-axed-intelligence-committee-disloyalty/?fbclid=IwAR3hPvIqMSSDLmQ0hsStd6RvoHKOAQbAx1Fd7kll3zQ50wStDKPI-1ltZCw
THIS is what you Tory voters voted for!
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bpool. I haven't 'slated' the Tories.
I have reposted two tweets from the former Chair of the Conservative Party. Don't you think you should listen, take notice and explore why she has posted those things?
There is an actual thread on the Labour report btw.
I know you haven’t mate I worded it wrong sorry,you do put links up that are bad against the tories which is fine but when I put one up Hounslow questioned why I didn’t put a link of both tories and labour and I wondered why he just choose to ask me that and not you as well
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I see that over-educated idiot David Starkey has revealed his true colours.
And this, from the under-educated idiot who interviewed him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DawnHFoster/status/1278690822528151553
As the tweet says, accidentally hilarious.
Worra amoral bas**rd eh? Doing nothing when they came for the racists!
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And yet we have a full thread on Priti Patel started by BST where she has been called some quite vile near to the bone things.
Is it that she and the Chancellor by some quirk of fate are the wrong sort of black, or just that they happen to be coloured but members of the Tory party? which would be a real reason to be hated according to some of you. Which is no different to hating because of race and colour.
Is there any real difference between people seen as racial, and people who hate and belittle people because of their politics? some on here are well qualified to answer surely.
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Priti Patel isn't black.
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Macho, as I said are her and the chancellor the wrong type of black to call it racial hate that has been posted on that thread, or is it OK to insult and call her because she is a Tory minister and her politics, and what is the difference?
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Again, neither of them are black, for one thing. So why they're being lumped in with black people I have no idea, but can probably take a good guess.
I can't see any racial hate on her thread. You can criticise people of colour and even insult them without being racist. I'm not even going to get into this idea that criticising Tories is as bad as racism. All I can say is I hope that's bait because if you genuinely believe that, then wow.
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Macho, as I said are her and the chancellor the wrong type of black to call it racial hate that has been posted on that thread, or is it OK to insult and call her because she is a Tory minister and her politics, and what is the difference?
Why are you pointing to a thread that has no racial insults in it whasoever?
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You have been scolded selby get your posts on the correct thread please
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Fight :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:
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Usual deflection
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Usual deflection
Says the person ignoring the question!
Go on, prove me wrong and show me up by telling us what you think is a insult based on someone's race or religion in that thread.
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And yet we have a full thread on Priti Patel started by BST where she has been called some quite vile near to the bone things.
Is it that she and the Chancellor by some quirk of fate are the wrong sort of black, or just that they happen to be coloured but members of the Tory party? which would be a real reason to be hated according to some of you. Which is no different to hating because of race and colour.
Is there any real difference between people seen as racial, and people who hate and belittle people because of their politics? some on here are well qualified to answer surely.
Is this a serious question in Britain in the 21st century?
Is there any difference between 'hating' someone for being born a particular colour or from a particular race and 'hating' them for choosing to represent a particular political ideology you disagree with?
Seriously, you have to ask this?
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If either Patel or Sunak have been subject to abuse or other degrading treatment because of their ethnicity, that is utterly disgusting.
If you have examples of prominent people doing that, please post them Selby.