Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: GazLaz on August 27, 2020, 08:29:04 am
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One time Rovers loanee and one time possible Marquis replacement JCH is joining Peterborough for £1.2m. Not a bad replacement for Ivan Toney.
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Did very well at Bristol, improving with age.
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Where's Toney gone?
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Where's Toney gone?
Not gone yet, but Celtic might be in the running:
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport/18675502.darren-bent-insists-celtic-still-sign-peterboroughs-ivan-toney-despite-ajeti-purchase/
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Where's Toney gone?
Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.
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Where's Toney gone?
Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.
If that's true we got properly ripped off for Marquis.
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He turned Brentford down with sounds of things thinking he will get a bigger move, sounds like that Barry Fry said he doesnt expect him there for start of season.
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I see the link there with Celtic and Gavin Strachan. With Celtic now out of Champions league, Brentford might be his best option.
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Where's Toney gone?
Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.
If that's true we got properly ripped off for Marquis.
Did we.? If Toney goes to Brentford he will be at a club with realistic chances of getting to the EPL next season. If Toney scores goals at Brentford and helps them go up, that makes the £10million worth paying - hence the value.
What is the “value” to Portsmouth of having a proven league one goal scorer help get them up to the championship.? A lot less I reckon.!
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Where's Toney gone?
Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.
If that's true we got properly ripped off for Marquis.
Well we didn't but some clubs play around with silly numbers! Still, they have to make room for the bungs!
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Where's Toney gone?
Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.
Where is all this money coming from. Brentford paying 10m !!! although Celtic seem favourites as far as i can see.
I know Brentford have wealthy owners but that’s insane. Is Toney worth that sort of money? Only time will tell.
He hasn’t played at a high level before. Wigan on loan, a few games in the Championship.
Massive gamble at that sort of money.
Peterborough will be well set up with that sort of money. McAnthony’s pockets will be burning.
Let’s see if DF is the man to take them to where McAnthony wants them to go.
Very much doubt it myself. Let’s see.
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Not a bad advertisement for poor old smaller clubs with no money.
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Clarke Harris did OK for Bristol Rovers last year - without doubt his best year to date. According to Soccerstats he made 35 appearances and scored 16 goals in all competitions.... although 5 of these were from the penalty spot.
In previous seasons he has not been as prolific and this will be a test of whether he can produce when the pressure is on him. It's a big fee for someone who isn't a consistent goal scorer and time will tell if it's money well spent.
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Not a bad advertisement for poor old smaller clubs with no money.
Are you referring to Brentford Brian?
They are not a club with no money though at the present time.
If their owners pull the plug then they are in the, well we all know what don’t we.
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The majority of Brentford’s wealth has been generated from great business in the Transfer market. Have a quick look at the signings they’ve made and then how much they’ve sold them on for.
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Where's Toney gone?
Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.
Where is all this money coming from. Brentford paying 10m !!! although Celtic seem favourites as far as i can see.
I know Brentford have wealthy owners but that’s insane. Is Toney worth that sort of money? Only time will tell.
He hasn’t played at a high level before. Wigan on loan, a few games in the Championship.
Massive gamble at that sort of money.
Peterborough will be well set up with that sort of money. McAnthony’s pockets will be burning.
Let’s see if DF is the man to take them to where McAnthony wants them to go.
Very much doubt it myself. Let’s see.
They'll probably make £40m from selling Mbuemo, Watkins and Benrahma.
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:it took me almost a day to work out who the hell JCH actually was ... Irrelevant history in my world but at least i know now
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Buying a replacement before you sell an asset is the way to operate. We could learn a lot.
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Brentford have all their chips on player development. If that fails, they are in big trouble as their income otherwise is one of very lowest in the Championship and they pay pretty much the lowest wages in that league. As an example, in 18/19 they had same wage bill as Millwall. Even with those low wages they have wages at 125pc of income. So it just needs their transfer machine to fail once and they are in trouble.
Yes they are getting a new stadium that might alter the underlying income position, but it is only marginally bigger than Keepmoat (15k vs 17k). Being a London club helps attract players as well.
But, they are a club built on risk. They seem to have a decent model identifying and building up players but that is inherently risky (if they were certs, they would not be at Brentford) and you can only ride your luck for so long.
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Buying a replacement before you sell an asset is the way to operate. We could learn a lot.
Seems a bit daft in case it falls through and then you have two high earners and one of them isn't playing.
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Buying a replacement before you sell an asset is the way to operate. We could learn a lot.
Got deep pockets then have you GazLaz? Just send the money to Gavin. Sure he will appreciate your contribution to the cause.
Can be a very risky way to do business don’t you think? What happens if the sale of our player didn’t go through at the last minute.
Don’t suppose you thought of that.
Look if you prefer the ‘Posh‘ model why don’t you go and support them.
All you do is slag off DRFC’s recruitment.
We are solvent, we will be solvent in 12 months time. Probably solvent in 5 yrs time.
Will Peterborough United be solvent? Possibly if they are sensible with their 10m bonanza, or will they spend it all?
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Spending 10pc of what you are likely to get for Toney is prudent. Spending 10m would be madness but the price for JCH is a fraction of what they will get for Toney.
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Not a bad advertisement for poor old smaller clubs with no money.
Are you referring to Brentford Brian?
They are not a club with no money though at the present time.
If their owners pull the plug then they are in the, well we all know what don’t we.
Last summer they made £30m+ from the sales of Maupay & Konsa, the season before £20m from Mepham. This summer they could quite easily generate another £30m - £40m from player sales. It wouldn't surprise me if we've had more money put in by our owners to keep us propped up over the last few years than they have.
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Not a bad advertisement for poor old smaller clubs with no money.
Are you referring to Brentford Brian?
They are not a club with no money though at the present time.
If their owners pull the plug then they are in the, well we all know what don’t we.
Are you confusing them with Bournemouth?
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I think £1.2million is a big risk on an unproven League One striker. He hasn’t scored a lot of goals consistently yet like Marquis had. Time will tell but I suppose it’s only a small investment out of approx £6million windfall.
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Not a bad advertisement for poor old smaller clubs with no money.
Are you referring to Brentford Brian?
They are not a club with no money though at the present time.
If their owners pull the plug then they are in the, well we all know what don’t we.
Last summer they made £30m+ from the sales of Maupay & Konsa, the season before £20m from Mepham. This summer they could quite easily generate another £30m - £40m from player sales. It wouldn't surprise me if we've had more money put in by our owners to keep us propped up over the last few years than they have.
Aye. It's not just some rich benefactor like most clubs pushing for the top 6 at that level. It's their recruitment that does it for them. They have a squad full of assets which can be sold for multiple times of what they were signed for. I'm guessing seeing a club like that making profit and succeeding is what a lot of our fans recent disdain is about. They want us to sign our own players to make a profit and rinse and repeat.
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Not a bad advertisement for poor old smaller clubs with no money.
Are you referring to Brentford Brian?
They are not a club with no money though at the present time.
If their owners pull the plug then they are in the, well we all know what don’t we.
Last summer they made £30m+ from the sales of Maupay & Konsa, the season before £20m from Mepham. This summer they could quite easily generate another £30m - £40m from player sales. It wouldn't surprise me if we've had more money put in by our owners to keep us propped up over the last few years than they have.
Should we just ignore the £100m that Matthew Bentham put in as well?
That's what kick started them. And I understand that talk during the close season was that he wanted his money back.
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A lot of people have drunk the Brentford moneyball Kool-Aid. It is true they have found an impressive revenue stream from player development and sales but they still carry a lot of debt and are a club with a 17k stadium. If the conveyor belt of transfers fails just one year they have paper thin revenues to fall back on.
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Not a bad advertisement for poor old smaller clubs with no money.
Are you referring to Brentford Brian?
They are not a club with no money though at the present time.
If their owners pull the plug then they are in the, well we all know what don’t we.
Isn't that exactly the same position we are in?
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JCH had a good season last year but he doesn’t have a good injury record.
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In his ten season as a pro he has made 40 league games in a season only twice.
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Not a fan of Peterborough at all, but you have to hand it to them in how they spot gems and sell them on for big bucks. They had loads of the years.
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Not so long ago there were people on here scoffing the thought that Peterbro would get anywhere near the £6m that they were hoping for for Toney.
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Brentford have all their chips on player development. If that fails, they are in big trouble as their income otherwise is one of very lowest in the Championship and they pay pretty much the lowest wages in that league. As an example, in 18/19 they had same wage bill as Millwall. Even with those low wages they have wages at 125pc of income. So it just needs their transfer machine to fail once and they are in trouble.
Yes they are getting a new stadium that might alter the underlying income position, but it is only marginally bigger than Keepmoat (15k vs 17k). Being a London club helps attract players as well.
But, they are a club built on risk. They seem to have a decent model identifying and building up players but that is inherently risky (if they were certs, they would not be at Brentford) and you can only ride your luck for so long.
They are not riding their luck I know that.
Regarding what they spend on wages, they budget to the assets they have on their balance sheet, there is no risk in doing that.
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Burnley, Wimbledon and Crewe all had a few good seasons of unearthing and then selling talent. The thing is to be ready when it stops. I do think that the Covid crisis has hit our plan that was moving forward last season.
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Isn't football by definition a risk and reward business for everyone .
Every player you sign or let go produces risk , it's the nature of the beast .
Every clubs strategy carries risk the only difference is the way you go about it .
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I honestly don't think JCH is in the same class as Toney. Not that it's easy to find a replacement for a player so good. I have little doubt that Toney will succeed at a higher level but if Posh went up, JCH probably would outlive his usefulness to them at that point.
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I agree with you on the Toney observation RA.
I have rated him highly for the last couple of years and I too expect him to make an impact in the Championship.
JCH might just be a late developer, it does happen.
If he does help Peterbro to get promotion and then has to move on though he will have done his job and also raised his profile.
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Very fair that Hound.
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Brentford have agreed a £10m fee with Peterborough for Toney. We will see if he can do at the higher level. So Peterborough spend money on players and contracts then sell Toney to get their money back.
The thing I’ve just seen on Sky Sports news JCH went to Peterborough on a 4 year contract. So if they get Promotion will he step up he’s not really done it before in the Championship.
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If you can trust your scouts and management then I don’t see any problem in spending significant fees, if you’re confident that you will make money eventually.
We did it once with sharp and Baldwin can out and said that if the deal makes sound business sense then we would do it, we’ve not done that again since really.
Maybe whiteman when we gave him a new deal cause we know one day we will make money on him.
But players like kane, dieng, Wilks, these are players we could’ve spent money on knowing that in time we will make money on them
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All of those players have since gone to teams in higher divisions though dickos. Maybe if we were one division higher they would come here but ambition will surely drive them to want or need a bigger challenge?
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If you can trust your scouts and management then I don’t see any problem in spending significant fees, if you’re confident that you will make money eventually.
We did it once with sharp and Baldwin can out and said that if the deal makes sound business sense then we would do it, we’ve not done that again since really.
Maybe whiteman when we gave him a new deal cause we know one day we will make money on him.
But players like kane, dieng, Wilks, these are players we could’ve spent money on knowing that in time we will make money on them
I get the theory and it's good business but to take those gambles you also have to be prepared to lose. You need a significant amount of money to raise those stakes and we won't gamble to that degree.
Had we have achieved promotion then Herbie, Wilks, Dieng may have been on the radar although just a personal view, I don't think Wilks was worth the gamble.
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If you can trust your scouts and management then I don’t see any problem in spending significant fees, if you’re confident that you will make money eventually.
We did it once with sharp and Baldwin can out and said that if the deal makes sound business sense then we would do it, we’ve not done that again since really.
Maybe whiteman when we gave him a new deal cause we know one day we will make money on him.
But players like kane, dieng, Wilks, these are players we could’ve spent money on knowing that in time we will make money on them
I get the theory and it's good business but to take those gambles you also have to be prepared to lose. You need a significant amount of money to raise those stakes and we won't gamble to that degree.
Had we have achieved promotion then Herbie, Wilks, Dieng may have been on the radar although just a personal view, I don't think Wilks was worth the gamble.
Barnsley didn't seem to think he was worth the gamble.
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If you can trust your scouts and management then I don’t see any problem in spending significant fees, if you’re confident that you will make money eventually.
We did it once with sharp and Baldwin can out and said that if the deal makes sound business sense then we would do it, we’ve not done that again since really.
Maybe whiteman when we gave him a new deal cause we know one day we will make money on him.
But players like kane, dieng, Wilks, these are players we could’ve spent money on knowing that in time we will make money on them
I get the theory and it's good business but to take those gambles you also have to be prepared to lose. You need a significant amount of money to raise those stakes and we won't gamble to that degree.
Had we have achieved promotion then Herbie, Wilks, Dieng may have been on the radar although just a personal view, I don't think Wilks was worth the gamble.
Barnsley didn't seem to think he was worth the gamble.
But we don't know how much we was asking for him.
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All of those players have since gone to teams in higher divisions though dickos. Maybe if we were one division higher they would come here but ambition will surely drive them to want or need a bigger challenge?
Kane and dieng haven’t gone anywhere yet, and Wilks is with us in league one now.
Mccann had agreed a deal for Wilks according to him but wasn’t backed to make it happen.
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If you can trust your scouts and management then I don’t see any problem in spending significant fees, if you’re confident that you will make money eventually.
We did it once with sharp and Baldwin can out and said that if the deal makes sound business sense then we would do it, we’ve not done that again since really.
Maybe whiteman when we gave him a new deal cause we know one day we will make money on him.
But players like kane, dieng, Wilks, these are players we could’ve spent money on knowing that in time we will make money on them
I get the theory and it's good business but to take those gambles you also have to be prepared to lose. You need a significant amount of money to raise those stakes and we won't gamble to that degree.
Had we have achieved promotion then Herbie, Wilks, Dieng may have been on the radar although just a personal view, I don't think Wilks was worth the gamble.
Barnsley didn't seem to think he was worth the gamble.
The New manager didn’t rate him,
It happens,
Hull obviously did think he was worth the gamble.
The point is over the last 2/3 years we’ve reduced our squad quite significantly And are making it up with short term deals.
In my opinion we are going to struggle to build any future with a squad full of short term deals where each year we have to rebuild our squad
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If you can trust your scouts and management then I don’t see any problem in spending significant fees, if you’re confident that you will make money eventually.
We did it once with sharp and Baldwin can out and said that if the deal makes sound business sense then we would do it, we’ve not done that again since really.
Maybe whiteman when we gave him a new deal cause we know one day we will make money on him.
But players like kane, dieng, Wilks, these are players we could’ve spent money on knowing that in time we will make money on them
I get the theory and it's good business but to take those gambles you also have to be prepared to lose. You need a significant amount of money to raise those stakes and we won't gamble to that degree.
Had we have achieved promotion then Herbie, Wilks, Dieng may have been on the radar although just a personal view, I don't think Wilks was worth the gamble.
Barnsley didn't seem to think he was worth the gamble.
The New manager didn’t rate him,
It happens,
Hull obviously did think he was worth the gamble.
The point is over the last 2/3 years we’ve reduced our squad quite significantly And are making it up with short term deals.
In my opinion we are going to struggle to build any future with a squad full of short term deals where each year we have to rebuild our squad
Thanks. I think you've touched on this before.
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You must have a good memory,
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If you can trust your scouts and management then I don’t see any problem in spending significant fees, if you’re confident that you will make money eventually.
We did it once with sharp and Baldwin can out and said that if the deal makes sound business sense then we would do it, we’ve not done that again since really.
Maybe whiteman when we gave him a new deal cause we know one day we will make money on him.
But players like kane, dieng, Wilks, these are players we could’ve spent money on knowing that in time we will make money on them
I get the theory and it's good business but to take those gambles you also have to be prepared to lose. You need a significant amount of money to raise those stakes and we won't gamble to that degree.
Had we have achieved promotion then Herbie, Wilks, Dieng may have been on the radar although just a personal view, I don't think Wilks was worth the gamble.
Barnsley didn't seem to think he was worth the gamble.
The New manager didn’t rate him,
It happens,
Hull obviously did think he was worth the gamble.
The point is over the last 2/3 years we’ve reduced our squad quite significantly And are making it up with short term deals.
In my opinion we are going to struggle to build any future with a squad full of short term deals where each year we have to rebuild our squad
The point is dickos, we can all see your point and understand it, but we won't be indulging in that degree of gambling. Our owners are different characters and go about things differently.
There's more than one way of skinning a cat as we know and accepting how Posh go about their business, we beat them twice last season and remain in the same division. I would like to hope you enjoyed those victories just like everyone else!
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I’ve not mentioned Peterborough.
My only interest is us and the way our squad has deteriorated over the last two years is an obvious concern.
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Have our performances on the pitch and the position in the league table been a “serious concern”.?
I thinks we’ve done quite well in those last two seasons..
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Have our performances on the pitch and the position in the league table been a “serious concern”.?
I thinks we’ve done quite well in those last two seasons..
Considering the mess Fergie and McCann left us in we did.
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Have our performances on the pitch and the position in the league table been a “serious concern”.?
I thinks we’ve done quite well in those last two seasons..
Considering the mess Fergie and McCann left us in we did.
McCann was in charge for one of those two seasons.
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We did well under mCcann, but then the summer after that was very poor recruitment wise, we sold marquis at the last minute which left us with no striker for the first game of the season, we didn’t replace many if any of the first team contracted players of that season And filled our squad with 6 loan players of which only 5 could play.
For two seasons now we’ve had a good starting 11, but a couple of injuries and we’re struggling.
Currently out of the back 4 we only have Amos has cover, in midfield we have whiteman, copps and then a few inexperienced players and up top We have one striker on the books.
Yes there’s a few weeks to go but you’d think we’d learn from past experience.
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It’s your right to have an opinion to be concerned, but I trust DM and the club to get it right..
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Have our performances on the pitch and the position in the league table been a “serious concern”.?
I thinks we’ve done quite well in those last two seasons..
Considering the mess Fergie and McCann left us in we did.
McCann was in charge for one of those two seasons.
IMHO Hound, McCann left us in a poorer state than he found us. Yes the football played in his year was good and successful, but the actions of the early summer of 2019 meant the squad left was much weaker.
The jury is out on Fergie for me, but that is only because he inherited a very poor situation from Dickov. The football (League 2 season aside) was poor, but he unquestionably left us with a better squad.
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Have our performances on the pitch and the position in the league table been a “serious concern”.?
I thinks we’ve done quite well in those last two seasons..
Considering the mess Fergie and McCann left us in we did.
McCann was in charge for one of those two seasons.
I think perhaps the point was that both Ferguson (4 June) and McCann (21 June) left us in middle of the close season and we were always playing catch up from then in both seasons. McCann arguably was the most damaging as it was not only later but he had taken scalpel to squad but not finished the recruitment. Darren Moore has been behind ever since then, with COVID-19 uncertainty making his job even more challenging.
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I’ve not mentioned Peterborough.
My only interest is us and the way our squad has deteriorated over the last two years is an obvious concern.
I mentioned Posh because its part of this thread and a contrast to how we go about things, particularly with DF as manager.
As I've said before, clearly DM has his own way and that ain't going to change just to satisfy us. He could easily be sat there with his feet up knowing the options he has in the pipeline and confident in his, and the players ability, to get up to speed relatively quickly.
There's no particular right or wrong and given your similar concerns last season, I hope you can acknowledge he made a relative success of it.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
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I want Dickos to be our Manager so we can see exactly what needs to be done in practice rather than theoretically....
These Covidian groundhog days are what I dream about...
Dickos ! Nearly everyone agrees with your points, but agreeing or disagreeing is a bit pointless as we have absolutely zero influence over current and future events...
Sit back and enjoy what our Management team serve up, it’ll be a much better experience for you if you accept that this is the way our club currently operates, and it’s actually quite exciting seeing new faces wearing our colours...
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He has signed for them £1.25mill what a joke
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They might be the ones laughing mate if he has another good season.
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How are Peterborough paying his wages given the salary cap? He will be on more than £5k a week, how does that fit the salary cap?
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If he’s on that much then some of his team mates will be on peanuts.. he would have had to have joined a while ago for his higher salary only to have counted as the average level.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
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Its just ridiculous to suggest that we have slashed the wage bill, no truth in that whatsoever. DM can have what he wants, he's been told that, but the choices to delay are his.
And for the poor start to last season then there are two people to point the finger at, one is Grant McCann, obviously, the other is JM, who led the club a merry dance.
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SM, did we have a poor start to last season?
One defeat in the first nine league matches.
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Its just ridiculous to suggest that we have slashed the wage bill, no truth in that whatsoever. DM can have what he wants, he's been told that, but the choices to delay are his.
And for the poor start to last season then there are two people to point the finger at, one is Grant McCann, obviously, the other is JM, who led the club a merry dance.
We didn’t have a poor start last season.
4 wins 4 draws & 1 defeat in first 9 games.
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If he’s on that much then some of his team mates will be on peanuts.. he would have had to have joined a while ago for his higher salary only to have counted as the average level.
He was on £5k a week at BR and apparently he’s on more at Peterborough, all subjective and assumptions from fans of both clubs.
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If he’s on that much then some of his team mates will be on peanuts.. he would have had to have joined a while ago for his higher salary only to have counted as the average level.
He was on £5k a week at BR and apparently he’s on more at Peterborough, all subjective and assumptions from fans of both clubs.
Ha ha. So basically you haven't got a clue then?
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As you can imagine our forum is divided over JCH going. We’ve had an offer of a new contract on the table for a few months now making him the best paid player for us, ever. He hasn’t signed it. For me if he doesn’t want to play for us I’m happy for him to go, so long as we get a fee for what he’s worth. We think it’s £1.25m, McAnthony says it’s a bit less. JCH is good, but needs a direct, long ball approach more than a pass and move system which our manager wants to play. JCH also loves to moan and have a go at his own players, not a team player imo. So overall a decent player but not as good as he thinks and if he’s plays 35 games this season I’ll be surprised. And we got a decent fee.
The downside is we’ve got no recognised goalscorers and we’re about to start serious football! Only at BRFC!
Up the Rovers!
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You wouldn't imagine that he'd move on a two year deal for less money after the best season that he's had?
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
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If he’s on that much then some of his team mates will be on peanuts.. he would have had to have joined a while ago for his higher salary only to have counted as the average level.
He was on £5k a week at BR and apparently he’s on more at Peterborough, all subjective and assumptions from fans of both clubs.
Ha ha. So basically you haven't got a clue then?
I’ve more clue than you but hey that wouldn’t be hard would it, the talk from people more in the know than you and I is he’s on 7k
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If he’s on that much then some of his team mates will be on peanuts.. he would have had to have joined a while ago for his higher salary only to have counted as the average level.
He was on £5k a week at BR and apparently he’s on more at Peterborough, all subjective and assumptions from fans of both clubs.
Ha ha. So basically you haven't got a clue then?
I’ve more clue than you but hey that wouldn’t be hard would it, the talk from people more in the know than you and I is he’s on 7k
So your post based on assumptions from "fans" of both clubs and the "talk" from those "people in the know" just goes to prove you really haven't got a clue what he is on, have you?
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Why has this been made a sticky?
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If he’s on that much then some of his team mates will be on peanuts.. he would have had to have joined a while ago for his higher salary only to have counted as the average level.
He was on £5k a week at BR and apparently he’s on more at Peterborough, all subjective and assumptions from fans of both clubs.
Ha ha. So basically you haven't got a clue then?
I’ve more clue than you but hey that wouldn’t be hard would it, the talk from people more in the know than you and I is he’s on 7k
So your post based on assumptions from "fans" of both clubs and the "talk" from those "people in the know" just goes to prove you really haven't got a clue what he is on, have you?
My post is no different from any other but thanks for choosing mine to have a go at
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I’d be surprised if he’s on 7k a week. L1 footballers don’t earn as much as you think.
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Why has this been made a sticky?
I'm presuming someone meant to pin the new PvO thread and clicked the wrong thread.
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Eoin Doyle was on that at Bradford City which is why he ended up on loan at Swindon with City stilling paying over half of his wage.
James Vaughan was also on decent money there.
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SM, did we have a poor start to last season?
One defeat in the first nine league matches.
I was referring to the transfer market and our perceived failure to attract the type of player we needed. That was the gist of Dickos's post, that we had slashed the wage bill and now can't attract the type of player who could be considered as quality. It was a clear reference to our activity level and not our playing level.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
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No real idea how much he was on with us. There’s always lots of rumours. But Kyle Bennett is said to be our top earner at £4K a week. Now that is stealing a living, we can’t shift him and he’s not in the managers plans. One of Darren Clarke’s more ridiculous poor decisions before he left. If JCH was on that he would have been earning it. We’ve all thought he was on less but as with all footballers wages no one really knows.
Up the Rovers!
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
Ok Martin, could you tell us what the wage bill was when we got promoted under SoD and under Saunders, compared to now?
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I’d be surprised if he’s on 7k a week. L1 footballers don’t earn as much as you think.
Bear in mind Peterborough will use some of the fee they're expecting for the guy they're selling. They're not really investing a high % of their sales in fees, hence they likely may be able to pay decent wages.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
Ok Martin, could you tell us what the wage bill was when we got promoted under SoD and under Saunders, compared to now?
Who mentioned SoD and Saunders? He said two seasons ago.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
Ok Martin, could you tell us what the wage bill was when we got promoted under SoD and under Saunders, compared to now?
To be fair, there have been several managers since those two - and the SOD promotion was 12 seasons ago. I don’t think either of those two promotions could in any way be described as financially prudent given the multimillion pound black hole they delivered. We are now down to one guy filling this and he might rightly expect not to keep delivering £2-3million each season on his own.
It could of course be reasonable to think the wage bill has gone down in recent seasons. But without access to that information, it is entirely a suspicion and supposition rather than an objective fact. Like those bores in pubs talking about immigrants taking jobs.
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SM, did we have a poor start to last season?
One defeat in the first nine league matches.
I was referring to the transfer market and our perceived failure to attract the type of player we needed. That was the gist of Dickos's post, that we had slashed the wage bill and now can't attract the type of player who could be considered as quality. It was a clear reference to our activity level and not our playing level.
Well I accept what you are now saying but it wasn’t clear to me, or Campsall evidently for that matter, that you weren’t talking about the start of season results.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
Ok Martin, could you tell us what the wage bill was when we got promoted under SoD and under Saunders, compared to now?
Who mentioned SoD and Saunders? He said two seasons ago.
I mentioned them. Just wanted to gauge direction of travel over a longer period of time.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
Ok Martin, could you tell us what the wage bill was when we got promoted under SoD and under Saunders, compared to now?
Who mentioned SoD and Saunders? He said two seasons ago.
I mentioned them. Just wanted to gauge direction of travel over a longer period of time.
But that's a different subject entirely and is irrelevant to the post I made in response to Dickov's post, something he and I have debated in the past.
To answer your question though, and without digging through my records to find the information, I can just offer this. The playing budget is usually related to the league that you are in because its based on income. When we were in the Championship with SoD we had, for us, a large playing budget. When Saunders inherited the squad and then added to it with McKay's cast off's the playing budget ballooned beyond all recognition. Yet we were relegated.
The following season we had a good budget for LG1 and were promoted again. The budget went up again but ended up with relegation. Again we had a LG1 budget, but managed to get relegated and ended up in LG2 were we kept our LG1 budget and bought our way out of LG2. Since then we've had a pretty similar budget year on year, with increases reflecting our growing commercial income and the consistent funding from the Watson/Bramall ownership.
Does that answer your question?
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I’d be surprised if he’s on 7k a week. L1 footballers don’t earn as much as you think.
You can only go on what information is given by fans of the club he’s at, Bristol fans are claiming he was on £5k a week and that Posh are paying more. It might all be guess work just passing on what I have seen.
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
I’m not doing that at all Martin.
Even if all the contracted players were on the same money then it’s an obvious fact that 2 years ago the wage bill was higher just due to the fact we had many more contracted players on the books.
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And that was how I read your post - welcome back
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
I’m not doing that at all Martin.
Even if all the contracted players were on the same money then it’s an obvious fact that 2 years ago the wage bill was higher just due to the fact we had many more contracted players on the books.
When we debated this before you used the quality of the player as your argument that our budget had been reduced.
Now you're using the amount of contracted players, which is a bit like licking your finger and sticking it in the air, its just guesswork. But my question is how can you do that? At what point in the season do you count the number of contracted players, at the beginning, mid season, end of season? To be fair its all irrelevant, what matters is the numbers in the accounts, that's the arbiter for knowing whether our budget has been reduced or not.
Welcome back by the way!
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I hate to say it but you are looking at the post from the wrong angle SM or is it that you are just happy to carry on a little feud with the poster?
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I know we are living through a post-truth Trump/Boris age where you can say any old rubbish and get away with it - but this entire argument comes down to the singular point that does the manager have available to him a budget to spend on players that has been reducing over recent seasons.
However, unless someone has access to how much spending power Gavin has allotted Ferguson, McCann and Moore respectively, it is just a discussion over what people think is the case, not what is actually the case. Just saying what you think you see on the pitch and extrapolating this to the budget as a whole is a personal view, not fact.
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We now have a wage cap for Players with new contracts don’t we?
So this seasons budget will possibly be reduced but not necessarily.
It’s all supposition isn’t it. We don’t know what each individual player is on at DRFC.
Are existing contracts above or below the new threshold. We don’t know.
So what’s the problem? Does it matter. No it doesn’t imo. As long as we are competitive and DM has a budget he can comfortably work with ( unlike DF :headbang: ) then thats all that matters. Isn’t it?
When all the old contracts run out we will have a level playing field throughout the league. Hallelujahs to that.
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I know we are living through a post-truth Trump/Boris age where you can say any old rubbish and get away with it - but this entire argument comes down to the singular point that does the manager have available to him a budget to spend on players that has been reducing over recent seasons.
However, unless someone has access to how much spending power Gavin has allotted Ferguson, McCann and Moore respectively, it is just a discussion over what people think is the case, not what is actually the case. Just saying what you think you see on the pitch and extrapolating this to the budget as a whole is a personal view, not fact.
Well no, not really.
I’ve not mentioned the budget, I’m speaking specifically about the number of contracted players we have in comparison to what we had 2/3 years ago.
It’s a fact that in August before the start of the 2017/18 season we had a significant higher number of contracted players.
It’s not guesswork to realise this means the wage bill was larger then.
That was my only point, nothing to do with anything you’ve come back with
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I’ve no qualms at all with Moore, but he’s hardly been given the best chance to be successful has he.
Sold his best striker days before the season started, he’s had no money to spend on transfer fees to replace his best striker.
The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had.
Moore has done well considering what he’s had at his disposal but just imagine where he could take us if he’s given the funds to build his own squad
Apart from the current season having a salary cap, are you privy to the clubs wage bill.?
Look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players.
Don’t need to be privy to anything to know the wage bill on contracted players is a lot less now
Your doing that 'thing' again where you take your biased opinion of a player and relate that to reflect what you consider is a players salary level. No logic to that at all.
I’m not doing that at all Martin.
Even if all the contracted players were on the same money then it’s an obvious fact that 2 years ago the wage bill was higher just due to the fact we had many more contracted players on the books.
When we debated this before you used the quality of the player as your argument that our budget had been reduced.
Now you're using the amount of contracted players, which is a bit like licking your finger and sticking it in the air, its just guesswork. But my question is how can you do that? At what point in the season do you count the number of contracted players, at the beginning, mid season, end of season? To be fair its all irrelevant, what matters is the numbers in the accounts, that's the arbiter for knowing whether our budget has been reduced or not.
Welcome back by the way!
I’m just comparing like for like,
August to August.
Yes this year is unusual with what’s going on but we have reduced our squad quite significantly over the last 2/3 years.
Player quality is down to opinion, obviously. But we had Experienced players throughout the squad in every position, player who undoubtedly would’ve been on good wages.
Now we have a very good starting 11 in my opinion, as we did last season too, but the squad isn’t big enough in my opinion to compete throughout the season, were always only 2 injuries away from struggling
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There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.
What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”
That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.
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I just don’t get the context of this thread....why does it matter what the club does with its finances?
The product served up is very good regardless of costs....
and we minions only have to fork out a bit each week/fortnight, I guess there’s just no preseason without these mind boggling threads
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There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.
What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”
That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.
The evidence is the number of contracted players for the 2017/18 season compared to the number of contracted players we have now.
The disparity is a fact.
That’s my only point, I’ve no idea what you’re drivelling on about.
It’s not my opinion that we have less contracted players now than we did then, it’s a fact
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There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.
What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”
That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.
The evidence is the number of contracted players for the 2017/18 season compared to the number of contracted players we have now.
The disparity is a fact.
That’s my only point, I’ve no idea what you’re drivelling on about.
It’s not my opinion that we have less contracted players now than we did then, it’s a fact
Does it fxxxing matter
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There is no need for discord over this. Just needs putting in perspective and then everyone can move on.
What would be accurate to say is: “In my view, although I am not privy to the actual underlying official information, is that the wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had. My opinion is that this is correct because if you look at the contracted players we had two seasons ago, and compare to today’s contracted players, there is a disparity, in my own view.”
That would to most reasonable and sentient people be a fairly constructed statement, rather than tilting at windmills without evidence.
The evidence is the number of contracted players for the 2017/18 season compared to the number of contracted players we have now.
The disparity is a fact.
That’s my only point, I’ve no idea what you’re drivelling on about.
It’s not my opinion that we have less contracted players now than we did then, it’s a fact
No, that's not right - but we can easily correct this dissembling and put the issue to bed for the season.
There is the number of contracted players. That is yes, a fact.
Then there is this statement: "The wage bill on contracted players is significantly less than previous managers have had."
That statement is an assertion - an assertion you believe to be true - but you don't have the actual evidence to present it as fact. The number of contracted players might be lower (I don't know) but could be quantified easily I guess, but you cannot state as fact the wage bill on contracted players is "significantly less" - unless you want to bring forward the figures for this.
Long season ahead, lots to look forward to, maybe even some more spending on contracted players to cheer you up!
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I don't understand the obsession with the wage bill. Sunderland's probably dwarfs ours, and yet for the third season running, they'll be playing in the same division.
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I don't understand the obsession with the wage bill. Sunderland's probably dwarfs ours, and yet for the third season running, they'll be playing in the same division.
Dickos gets this itch every year and won’t let it heal....
I personally think he is OCD but then again.......who isn’t
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If you have fifteen players and it works out at £1 million then you would expect to have better players than if the total for 20 players was the same.
We don't know how much the individual players are on.
I would imagine that Ben Whiteman was offered a significant amount to extend his contract maybe taking one or two lesser players out of the equation and budget.
Let's just appreciate the team that we have.
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If you have fifteen players and it works out at £1 million then you would expect to have better players than if the total for 20 players was the same.
We don't know how much the individual players are on.
I would imagine that Ben Whiteman was offered a significant amount to extend his contract maybe taking one or two lesser players out of the equation and budget.
Let's just appreciate the team that we have.
Your dead right Idler.
There are some who are obsessed with the budget.
It’s not that important, it helps of course, it gives a head start. It also creates extra pressure, look at Sunderland.
Wycombe last season i would imagine had one of the smallest budgets in league 1. Look where they are now.
What’s important, really important is the mindset, the coaching ability and man management of the manager & coaching staff. The team spirit, togetherness of the whole squad, work ethic, coupled with a never say die attitude.
All that together gives you a far better chance of promotion than having one of the biggest budgets and none or few of those qualities required.
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m sure player bonuses are not included in the wage cap, therefore it’s open to abuse, I.e for every goal the team scores you’ll get an extra 2k a week or whatever.
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I thought they are included.?
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Bonuses are included I had the same thought.
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"Basic wages, taxes, bonuses, image rights and agents fees"
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/explained-how-new-squad-salary-caps-league-one-will-affect-clubs-including-doncaster-rovers-2936369
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Sound.
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If you have fifteen players and it works out at £1 million then you would expect to have better players than if the total for 20 players was the same.
We don't know how much the individual players are on.
I would imagine that Ben Whiteman was offered a significant amount to extend his contract maybe taking one or two lesser players out of the equation and budget.
Let's just appreciate the team that we have.
Your dead right Idler.
There are some who are obsessed with the budget.
It’s not that important, it helps of course, it gives a head start. It also creates extra pressure, look at Sunderland.
Wycombe last season i would imagine had one of the smallest budgets in league 1. Look where they are now.
What’s important, really important is the mindset, the coaching ability and man management of the manager & coaching staff. The team spirit, togetherness of the whole squad, work ethic, coupled with a never say die attitude.
All that together gives you a far better chance of promotion than having one of the biggest budgets and none or few of those qualities required.
I would tend to disagree, martin, gavin etc have always maintained that the budget almost always reflects the league table.
And I’d tend to agree with them.
There’s always exceptions to the rule of course
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Squad Salary Cap
A Squad Salary Cap for each Division at the following levels:
o League One - £2.5m
o League Two - £1.5m
An Overrun Concept is included where a Club’s total squad salary payments exceed the Cap by up to 5%.
There will be a blanket exclusion on those Players that are Under 21 Years whether they are a temporary loan or permanent.
Agent fees are included within the Squad Salary Cap and therefore linked to each Player.
A Football Fortune concept has been incorporated to acknowledge income received and bonuses incurred as a result of a successful Cup run:
o Cup bonuses will be included as a separate football fortune schedule and measured against the Cup Income that the Club generates each season.
o Any Cup surplus or deficit in that Season will be added to the Salary Cap calculation. This includes all Cup competitions including the end of Season Play offs.
o Promotion Bonuses are to be excluded from the Cap.
o Player Sales are not allowable – Due to the potentially significant value of transfer fees and the distortional impact this could have on a Club’s Cap.
o No carry forward will be allowed - For simplicity, is it proposed that Fortune Income will only be included in a Club’s Calculation in relation to the Season in which it was earned.
A strict set of Sanction guidelines will be drafted (incorporating points deductions) for Disciplinary Panel consideration if a Club is found to have complied with the Rules only through deliberate non-disclosure of accurate information and/or misleading information, or if it has exceeded the Overrun Allowance.
Salary Cap Rules
• Squad Salary Cap (“the Cap”) of £2.5m (Transitional allowances outlined below).
• Under 21 Players are excluded from the Cap whether they are a temporary loan or permanent.
• The Cap would include total salary (including taxes, bonuses, image rights, agents’ fees, and other fees and expenses) paid directly or indirectly to all Registered Players (Permanent and Loans).
• Payments directly linked to a Club’s progression in cup competitions or promotion are excluded from the Cap.
• Any income generated from Players going out on Loan would be deducted from the relevant Player’s Salary to be included within the Club’s Squad Salary Cap Calculation.
• Under 24 Players can be offered contract extensions/new contract terms as long as they are not at a higher Salary and be maintained at the Divisional Average Cap (if relevant) to protect Compensation rights.
• An ‘Overrun’ concept is included if a Club’s total squad salary payments exceed the Cap by up to 5% to acknowledge that, for example, a Club’s achievements (not promotion) may result in bonus payments in excess of their original budget.
o An Overrun Tax is then be payable on a staggered basis up to £3 for every £1 overspend.
o Clubs exceeding the Overrun would be referred to an Independent Disciplinary Commission.
• The EFL would monitor the Cap on a Real-Time basis throughout the Season.
• A strict set of Sanction guidelines will be drafted (incorporating further fines and points deductions) for Disciplinary Panel consideration if a Club is found to be in breach or to have only complied with the Rules, e.g. through deliberate non-disclosure of accurate information and/or misleading information.
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Any idea S_M on how clubs will be audited, frequency etc, and whether compliance results will be published in the public domain?
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Any idea S_M on how clubs will be audited, frequency etc, and whether compliance results will be published in the public domain?
Not yet, that's still part of the detail, but I will ask. It won't ever be in the public domain though, I can't see the members voting for that one!
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Any idea S_M on how clubs will be audited, frequency etc, and whether compliance results will be published in the public domain?
Not yet, that's still part of the detail, but I will ask. It won't ever be in the public domain though, I can't see the members voting for that one!
Cheers S_M. I notice they say it will be monitored on a real time basis. I think it would be prudent given its introduction the EFL make some form of statement, maybe when the transfer window closes that confirms all clubs are compliant, unless of course they issue a statement about any specific disciplinaries due to breaches etc.
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Where's Toney gone?
Brentford for £10m (£6m with clauses) seemed to be the shout. Not gone yet.
Where is all this money coming from. Brentford paying 10m !!! although Celtic seem favourites as far as i can see.
I know Brentford have wealthy owners but that’s insane. Is Toney worth that sort of money? Only time will tell.
He hasn’t played at a high level before. Wigan on loan, a few games in the Championship.
Massive gamble at that sort of money.
Peterborough will be well set up with that sort of money. McAnthony’s pockets will be burning.
Let’s see if DF is the man to take them to where McAnthony wants them to go.
Very much doubt it myself. Let’s see.
Mmmmmm, it seems as though Toney has had a good start to the season.
Seven goals in six matches.
At 71 minutes per goal he easily has the best scoring rate in the Championship.
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He actually has a better goal-per-game rate at this stage on his own than Real Madrid.