Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Metalmicky on November 10, 2020, 05:55:22 pm
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football
TBF, my old man still refers to black guys as coloured - doesn't matter how many times I tell him that it's now inappropriate.... He is not trying to offend - it is just how it used to be...
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may be off topic mods - feel free to move
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Aye, that's how it used to be. And I highly doubt Clarke is racist at all.
But as the leader and face of the FA, an organisation in charge of helping move the game into the modern era and help minorities have a voice, he just cannot use that language.
He came across atrociously today. Not only did he use that outdated term to refer to minorities, he also referred to South Asians being tech-savvy (a tired trope), said Afro-Caribbeans have "different interests", said being gay is a "life choice" and referred to girls being afraid to be hit by a ball in a game.
Ridiculous and completely unfit to be in the position he is (was) in.
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Regardless of whether you think offensive words are ok because they used to be ok (I dont personally), if youre in a high profile position then you need to educate yourself/have someone educate you on what is and isnt appropriate terminology.
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Aye, that's how it used to be. And I highly doubt Clarke is racist at all.
But as the leader and face of the FA, an organisation in charge of helping move the game into the modern era and help minorities have a voice, he just cannot use that language.
He came across atrociously today. Not only did he use that outdated term to refer to minorities, he also referred to South Asians being tech-savvy (a tired trope), said Afro-Caribbeans have "different interests", said being gay is a "life choice" and referred to girls being afraid to be hit by a ball in a game.
Ridiculous and completely unfit to be in the position he is (was) in.
Didn't realise that - no scope then, had to go...
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Aye, that's how it used to be. And I highly doubt Clarke is racist at all.
But as the leader and face of the FA, an organisation in charge of helping move the game into the modern era and help minorities have a voice, he just cannot use that language.
He came across atrociously today. Not only did he use that outdated term to refer to minorities, he also referred to South Asians being tech-savvy (a tired trope), said Afro-Caribbeans have "different interests", said being gay is a "life choice" and referred to girls being afraid to be hit by a ball in a game.
Ridiculous and completely unfit to be in the position he is (was) in.
Right on. Ironic he was called to account for his role in the Big Picture but shot himself in the foot with these comments showing he is totally unfit for purpose!
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Agreed Baz. He was looking for support amongst board members etc but because of his stance with the Big Picture there wasnt any.
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Point of fact. He didn't say being gay is a life choice. He was talking about coming out being a life choice and that footballers who chose to do that needed and deserved support.
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What I can't understand is that he's 63 I believe. That's 3 yrs older than I am.
But he seems 20 yrs older in outlook and attitude.
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Point of fact. He didn't say being gay is a life choice. He was talking about coming out being a life choice and that footballers who chose to do that needed and deserved support.
He said the following, word for word:
"What I would want to do is to know that anybody who runs out onto the pitch and says, 'I'm gay. I'm proud of it and I'm happy. It's a life choice, and I've made it because my life is a better place', I'd like to believe and I do believe they would have the support of their mates in the changing room.'"
Whether he meant it to come out in quite that way I don't know, but you shouldn't ever bring the phrase "life choice" into a discussion about gay people because of the obviously offensive connotations. There is no choice involved in being gay, and for any footballer to come out it would be about much more than a simple choice.
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Agreed Baz. He was looking for support amongst board members etc but because of his stance with the Big Picture there wasnt any.
So if he had had a different attitude about that, he would have had support, irrespective of his comments? Nice to see cronyism is still alive and well.
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RA.
I think we need to be very careful about cognitive bias in reading what people say. What Clarke said on this specific issue wasn't particularly well phrased, but I think automatically assuming he was meaning being gay is a life choice is questionable to say the least. Even The Guardian has reported it as him saying coming out is a life choice, which it clearly is, especially in the context of football culture where that has been far from easy.
I've no axe to grind for Clarke. His other comments are ignorant and from an era I'd have hoped we'd have left well behind, but I can't help feeling this specific comment has been overplayed.
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As I say BST, using the term at all in the context is dim-witted at best and indicative of his true opinion at worst. Regardless, he said plenty of other clear-cut offensive things today and has rightly resigned.
What the FA does next will tell its own story. I sincerely hope they don't just go to the next old, white yes man ready to protect the self-interest of the richest clubs.
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Nick, I think a term containing the words "cherry" and "top of cake" might apply.
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RA.
As I say, criticise him for his antediluvian choice of words. But choose where to draw the line on interpretations.
In the Identity Politics Culture War, I'm regularly thinking that an over-reaction often produces a worse counter-reaction than the original crime.
If you genuinely care about moving society on, I think that's something to ponder.
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What I find strange is
Using the term coloured is deemed unacceptable but using the phrase people of colour is deemed acceptable..
For me they both sound unacceptable but the phrase people of colour is used all the time in the media when describing black people. In fact Andrew marr used the phrase on Sunday.
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What I find strange is
Using the term coloured is deemed unacceptable but using the phrase people of colour is deemed acceptable..
For me they both sound unacceptable but the phrase people of colour is used all the time in the media when describing black people. In fact Andrew marr used the phrase on Sunday.
I agree dickos. I am totally confused. I say coloured people all the time. It used to be if you said Black that was deemed offensive.
The world has gone mad. Please would someone of the BAME community explain to me what is acceptable and what is not. Think they themselves might not be sure.
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I still want to know what he has done wrong
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The colour of skin does not matter! Get it?
We are all people!
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People with brown eyes are good at sports. People with blue eyes are good at IT jobs.
How rediculous are the above statements?
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It’s nothing to do with eyes or anything else. Weather these people are termed black or people is colour is immaterial most of them prefer the be be called black, some coloured, you call them anything else and they class it as an insult
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Sorry for some reason the quote function will not work for me..
Dickos, vicar, (and anyone else unsure) there is a difference between saying “ people of colour “ with “ coloured people “ .
The first statement defines someone as a PERSON FIRST. The second labels him or her with a colour first.
It is the same with saying “ disabled “ as opposed to a “ person with a disability “ etc.
Everyone should be described as a person first and foremost. It is that simple, would you not agree.?
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vicar - surely most of “ them “ prefer to be called “ people “
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vicar - surely most of “ them “ prefer to be called “ people “
Yes we are all ‘people’
When we are talking about Black Lives Matter we have to differentiate between those who are white and those who are not.
How are we supposed to do that. Yes we are all equal but the fact is we are all different in ethnicity and colour of skin.
The last thing I ever want to do is offend anyone. I am not in any way shape or form racist but I really don’t understand what language is now acceptable and what is not. It is unbelievably confusing.
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It may be easy to get tied up in knots about choosing your words, but it's about the context in which you use them, which in some cases exposes our prejudice and ignorance!
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Working where I do I’m pretty much on top of right and wrong terminology
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believe it or not they are proud of there skin as they should be, but IF you call them anything else but place they are insulted. Just tell me one thing white, is that wrong, there is no difference between the two
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Question.
Is our Manager Black, Coloured or A Person of Colour. Is he all 3 of those or none of those.
I am now baffled as to what to say. His skin is a different colour to mine yes but he is exactly the same as me. A human being with exactly same the equality that I have.
Well that’s the way it should be any way. I am delighted he is our manager not because he is One of the 3 ( above ) but because he was the best person for the job.
I am though delighted our owners were happy to interview him and then actually appoint him because he was the best candidate, acknowledging any other factors were not relevant.
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https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=278324.msg1001222#msg1001222
This!
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https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=278324.msg1001222#msg1001222
This!
The link won’t open BST
I think it’s because the site is having major problems.
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Opens for me. It was DBR's post #25 in this thread. I posted the link as I couldn't use the QUOTE method.
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Opens for me. It was DBR's post #25 in this thread. I posted the link as I couldn't use the QUOTE method.
Ok yes agree with DBR it’s how things are said and the context it is used in.
Mot so much the words used.
I just want to confirm i agree Clarke’s comments were totally unacceptable.
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I think regardless of if it says people first, the expression is still wrong.
Black people don’t wish to be described as a colour they want to be described as black.
Both expressions are wrong but one seems to be accepted
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I think regardless of if it says people first, the expression is still wrong.
Black people don’t wish to be described as a colour they want to be described as black.
Both expressions are wrong but one seems to be accepted
One minute you can't say Black, then it is wrong to say coloured, now black and people of colour are accepted expressions. Is there any wonder some older people say the wrong thing?
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:suicide:So if it is wrong to say black for a person, how come they say themselves BLACK lives matter, or if people on here say they are just people as they are, shouldn’t that be all lives matter or people’s lives matter
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Campsall, just call him Darren Moore, boss, our manager. If you were asked to describe DM as a man, how far, up or down the list would you use Black to describe him? Does his colour, religion, sexual orientation matter?
It's not racist or offensive to say he's black, but the context in which you use the description does matter.
Black Lives Matter is much more than 'differentiating' between black or white etc.
There's a good thread about the subject in Off Topic which helps us to question ourselves about our views. It helped me to question my own views and whether I'm racist or anti racist etc.
For example, would you say you have white privilege?
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vicar I only mentioned the difference between “coloured people” and “people of colour”, to point out the massive difference that the order of those words implies.
I’m no expert, but I think black as a descriptive word, rather than a label, is appropriate.?
As for Black Lives Matter, the point there is that for decades and centuries even, people and societies gave the impression that black lives didn’t matter - and that even now some people’s behaviours still show that..
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Can someone define "black"? Is it correct to call someone of Indian or Pakistani origin "black"? Or someone from a mixed marriage as "black"? As Campsall said our age group were brought up to use coloured as a decent term of description as opposed to all other derogatory terms, when was it decided it has now become wrong and by whom?
To me a person is a person whatever the colour of their skin
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The vast majority of us are not outwardly racist but we can be lazy and use terms that have racist overtones that could be detrimental and not understand why it does matter.
As said above, if you are getting hung up on whst words you can or can't use to describe the colour of someones skin, then you're missing the point somewhat.
I worked worked in an office with two Karen's on my team. One is white, the other is black. In conversation it would come up, Karen said this or that, and I would get the question “Which Karen?“ to which I'd say “Black Karen“.
Is that racist? No. Is it lazy? Yes, I could have used their surnames, hair colour etc but in context it wasn't racist or offensive. Karen is well aware she is black and was not offended in the slightest however, I can think of many words to describe Karen as a person and the word "black' would be way, way down the list.
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DBR.
Need to be careful using the term "Karen". You'll get yourself in trouble.
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He’s certainly not a racist, but this PC world means that it’s easier to say someone’s offended over the slightest thing they don’t happen to like nowadays.....
Maybe all the footballers should have made a joint statement saying that they are not offended by anything he said and that he should not of resigned....
I’m deeply offended by those that seek to look for racism where it clearly does not exist....
I’m deeply offended by those that tell others how they should think and act regarding race discussions...
I’m deeply offended by those that lack the intelligence to KNOW when something is actually racist and just said the wrong way.....
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As soon as people start spouting “All lives matter” you know there’s no hope for them!
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Context matters. "Coloured" has often been used very negatively in the past, which makes it uncomfortable for many black people. Most notably, in the Jim Crow era, which is in living memory (including my wife's grandparents who lived through it). Segregated areas would often refer to "coloreds". It's still quite raw for a lot of people. "People of colour" doesn't have that same history.
Believe it or not, there isn't an army of woke lefties out there waiting for someone to say the wrong thing so they can jump on it. If some old bloke called my wife "coloured" because he innocently didn't know any better, she'd likely ignore it or politely try to explain if it started to make her uncomfortable. Most black people would do the same. Your parents and grandparents are fine, they don't need to walk on eggshells. But coming from the chairman of the FA, representing the sport to MPs, that's a whole different ball game and is quite unacceptable, so the furore is warranted in this case.
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The quote function not working for me either and I wanted to comment on a number of points made. Instead...
IDM, I've been struggling to understand why the term Coloured people and people of colour are considered so different and until your explanation in Reply 22 nobody has been able to explain it and it has been discussed at length on radio today. I must admit to feeling annoyance when the presenter introduced Joleon Lescott to contribute from the Black person's perspective, she began by asking him to explain why the term Coloured is offensive and people of colour is not. He couldn't and after a bit of bluster said something lame about it just make him angry.
So, IDM, to come back to your explanation if the distinction is putting person in front of the word colour is the key distinction why then is speaking of Black people ok? Genuine question because, apart from this your explanation is the only one that seems to have any logic.
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I dunno, it’s probably all to do with the context.
Take DM, when we discuss him in respect of DRFC he is simply Darren Moore our manager. In a discussion on diversity in football he is one of the few black managers in the game, clearly disproportionate to the number of black players in the game.
You wouldn’t think words can have so much power and influence, when ordered in a certain way or in different contexts, but they do. Often accidentally and without malice.
I don’t have the absolute answers but I would think a context which is only descriptive is ok, which moves away from any indication of “us” and “them”.?
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People of colour/coloured people? First thing that springs to my mind, is who the hell does it refer to? Aren't we all people of colour? Or are we referring to non whites? That in itself has inferences that white people are superior. Is like a white person in effect saying everyone else but us!
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The colour of skin does not matter! Get it?
We are all people!
If that is the case DBR, why did I hear on the sports news this morning that it has been suggested that Clarke’s replacement should be a black person?
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the thing is maybe and only maybe it wouldn't such be an issue if people got it wrong-occasionaly, a genuine mistake if they had full equality and there wasn't prejudice, there wasn't a long history of prejudice and and society didn't still struggle with it.
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Hound, why do you think it is being suggested?
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I was gonna have a chinky tonight......guess I’ll have to rethink the context of my desire for food of an oriental nature....
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I was thinking of having a shaggy but I've gone off the idea
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Hound, why do you think it is being suggested?
I don’t know.
I was just asking the question in light of what you had said.
Personally I don’t care who gets the job.
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The best person ought to get it but they seldom do.
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Black is not a colour, so they can’t be classed as coloured or people of colour
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Can someone define "black"? Is it correct to call someone of Indian or Pakistani origin "black"? Or someone from a mixed marriage as "black"? As Campsall said our age group were brought up to use coloured as a decent term of description as opposed to all other derogatory terms, when was it decided it has now become wrong and by whom?
To me a person is a person whatever the colour of their skin
Bang on ravenrover. You hit the nail on the head.
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So, Coloured is a perfectly logical term after all. Seems to me the problem around this terminology is that those trying to tell us it's a derogatory word base their opinion on the assumption that anyone using it does so from a position of ignorance or malice. They would be very far from correct to do so. I was raised to have no racial prejudice, it's no exaggeration to say that I am only around today because of a Black West Indian GP but I have always preferred to use the term 'coloured' to any others in common use.
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I thought "Coloured" used to be the acceptable term, and "Black" was a taboo term, hence the banning of the word Blackboards in schools etc. It is a difficult task trying to keep up with what is politically correct at any given time, and these days if you say the wrong thing you are assumed racist by the politically correct brigade.
No doubt I'll be considered racist by some because of this post.
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The taboo on blackboards is pc gone mad.. the implication was that because chalk was white it was the white that had some kind of superiority over the black.
However a blackboard is a blackboard because it is a board which happens to be black. From my memory most of the chalk my teachers used was actually yellow as it was more visible especially with reflections.
Not using the word black when the context is perfectly ok to do so and is unrelated to people or their skin colour, is crazy IMHO.
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Now that would be coloured chalk or now Chalk of colour
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No, just yellow.. ;)
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Has anyone ever had first hand experience of the word "blackboard" being banned? I have several friends and family that are or were teachers and I've never heard any examples of them being banned from using the word. I regularly use a blackboard at work and no-one has ever mentioned any issues with the use of the word.
I've just searched online and found plenty of people complaining about "PC councils banning the word blackboard" but no actual examples of it.
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I don’t think it was banned per se, more went out of fashion.. certainly in my later schooldays and at uni, the staff mainly used whiteboards and pens.
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That's a different thing though IDM. Whiteboards are just easier to use.
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If a blackboard is offensive then i give up completely.
If it is then a whiteboard has to be doesn’t it?
Give me strength. The world has gone PC mad. :zzz:
I don’t know what is acceptable any more. I really don’t. I don’t have a racist bone in my body but the words i thought were acceptable apparently are not. I think ;)
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Campsall. no one is arguing that a blackboard is offensive. People like to pretend that they are to distract you from the real issues. But they're not.
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Campsall.
Do you have any experience of people being banned from using the word "Blackboard"?
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Campsall.
Do you have any experience of people being banned from using the word "Blackboard"?
No none at all.
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I blame the whole PC thing on the lefty snowflakes who control Universities.
Although...
They obviously haven't spotted the unacceptable racist name given to the world's leading online teaching software used by Universities all round the world.
https://www.blackboard.com/en-uk
PC snowflakes AND f**king hypocrites, the lot of 'em.
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I’m not aware of any ban on “blackboard” but it certainly fell out of favour in the 90s when “chalkboard” came into common use.
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When referring to banned, it's not necessarily banned by law, but by pressure brought on by people preaching political correctness, or the PC brigade.
When referring to the PC brigade, it's not necessarily suggesting there is a political or any other sort of group or official party of them in existence, it is just a term to describe extreme over the top do-gooders collectively.
We all know these people exist, and we all should know that these people played a part in replacing such words as Blackboards for Chalkboards.
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You will of couse have a load of examples of that you can share with us to show the accuracy of that BB?
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The invention of the 'blackboard is banned' myth to discredit actual attempts at racial integration:
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/opinion/letters/2318169.political-correctness/
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Not in the news outlets you read, no! You'll just have to rely on good old BB experience if you want to believe me, but I suspect you are probably part of the PC brigade problem.
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that means there will be no proof then?
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See my last post, Skippy.
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BB
Happy to put up £25 for the foodbank against your £100 depending on your confidence level of coming up with some credible evidence that the word blackboard is regarded as non-pc?
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Do you accept personal experience or has it got to be in the Guardian?
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As you don't appear to have much of the former why don't we let Martin be the judge of what is credible or not?
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Offiah? Lewis? O'Hara?
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who do you think I mean bb?
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Doing a bit of fact checking bb?
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Luther King?
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Sheen?
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If you want to admit you got it wrong anytime I'm happy to back up your £100 with my £25 as it's a good cause bb, making it $125 total for the less well off?
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Don't be silly Syderney. You're so out of touch anyone would think you lived on the other side of the world.
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All your posts are up there for people to read we'll just leave it there and save you further embarrassment aye?
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My only embarrassment owd lad is wondering why I'm wasting my life talking to you.
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BB
Happy to put up £25 for the foodbank against your £100 depending on your confidence level of coming up with some credible evidence that the word blackboard is regarded as non-pc?
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Perhaps the simple and correct explanation for the word 'blackboard' going out of use is that they were replaced with green ones.
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Blackboards were replaced with Green ones when I was at school, but they were still called Blackboards. It was after I'd left school that the name was changed to Chalkboard for PC reasons.
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Late into this, but I retired as a junior school head twelve years ago, we were still using the term blackboard, though they were being replaced by whiteboards, they’d often be side by side in the classroom. Never had a missive banning the name, can’t even remember calling it a chalkboard either.
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BB
I've never used the word "chalkboard" in my life, nor heard anyone use it before this thread.
Why do you think the biggest University online teaching software system in the world is called Blackboard if there has been a concerted PC attempt to not use that term?
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As far as I can remember there was never anything official or formal about not using “blackboard”, but I certainly heard the argument that it was non-pc for the reasons I described before.
I didn’t then and don’t now agree with that argument about white chalk being empowered over the black board, because it is b*llocks..
But it was around, f not formally.
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BST. I don't think I've used the word Chalkboard either, but it has been and is still used nowadays.
As you know, the use of the word Blackboard is no longer taboo and hasn't been for probably 30 or 40 years, so the biggest University online teaching software system in the world is quite within political correctness to be called Blackboard.
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So let me get this right.
The word "Blackboard" was offensive in the 1980s, but it isn't now. Because...
Somebody help me out here.
And both of us have never used the word chalkboard and I've never heard it used before. But it IS used and it replaced "blackboard" because PC sensibities demanded that we accept "blackboard" was offensive then. But it isn't now. And neither of us, nor an ex-hesd teacher in this thread, nor the several people I know who work in education can find any example of anyone not using the word "blackboard" because it was offensive then. (Even though it isn't now.)
Good. That appears to have cleared things up. Looks like you talking b*llocks again and taking what was actually a generally very intelligent and nuanced discussion into the cess pit.
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BB I can’t think or remember when blackboard was ever taboo in my teaching career, starting around the 1970s.
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So let me get this right.
The word "Blackboard" was offensive in the 1980s, but it isn't now. Because...
Yes, because it was back then, but it isn't now.
Somebody help me out here.
And both of us have never used the word chalkboard and I've never heard it used before. But it IS used and it replaced "blackboard" because PC sensibities demanded that we accept "blackboard" was offensive then. But it isn't now. And neither of us, nor an ex-hesd teacher in this thread, nor the several people I know who work in education can find any example of anyone not using the word "blackboard" because it was offensive then. (Even though it isn't now.)
I'll help you out. Yes, some deemed it offensive then, but they don't now. Chalkboard is still used today, but not necessarily instead of saying blackboard like used to be the case.
Good. That appears to have cleared things up. Looks like you talking b*llocks again and taking what was actually a generally very intelligent and nuanced discussion into the cess pit.
Funny how it always finds you when it enters the cesspit.
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Chalkboard is the American word for blackboard.
Like hallowen trick or treat (became popular here after ET) and offense instead of attack for football commentators, it is part of the Americanisation of our culture. Watch any 80's American high school film - they have chalkboards.
It was never banned. It is a myth.
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I'm sure I can remember my daughter coming home from school reciting "Baa baa green sheep", but of course I don't have the proof that you all crave for.
Anyway, that's enough of that. Our club needs every penny it can get at the moment, so those of you without season tickets, make sure you buy your match passes for our next 2 home games against Sunderland and Bluepool.
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Some folks took the pc thoughts of the late 80s and early 90s too seriously, hence dropping blackboard in some contexts. Then most folks realised it was a total toss idea.
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Like a lot of complaints and causes the extremists push it too far and then it is counter-productive and does more harm than good.
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Like a lot of complaints and causes the extremists push it too far and then it is counter-productive and does more harm than good.
That's a fair point, but it does need some context.
When I was a kid, there were comedy programmes on the telly every week which freely used words like "nig-nog", "coon", "sambo" and "darkie" for comic effect.
It took people pushing to make that unacceptable. If some pushed too hard on some aspects of that struggle (and no-one ever seems to come up with convincing evidence, but leave that aside) it's a pretty small problem in that context.
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I remember in the mid 70s the “N word” was still included in one of the Rev Awdry books for kids (wasn’t themed on Thomas the tank engine then)..
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On the theme of counterproductive, the report into (might have been the Toxteth riots all those years ago) listed many findings and recommendations to improve, one of which was that 'there needs to be a period of positive discrimination' and whilst I'm sure it was never the intention I remember thinking at the time there couldn't possibly be a more ready-made excuse for those with racist agendas to keep the racist pot boiling than discrimination in favour of non-whites.
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Like a lot of complaints and causes the extremists push it too far and then it is counter-productive and does more harm than good.
That's a fair point, but it does need some context.
When I was a kid, there were comedy programmes on the telly every week which freely used words like "nig-nog", "coon", "sambo" and "darkie" for comic effect.
It took people pushing to make that unacceptable. If some pushed too hard on some aspects of that struggle (and no-one ever seems to come up with convincing evidence, but leave that aside) it's a pretty small problem in that context.
Another word that was used regularly for comic effect was of course “honky”.
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Aye Hound. Dozens of black comedians, there were, in the 1970s, using derogatory racist terms against whites on telly. Dozens of 'em.
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Aye Hound. Dozens of black comedians, there were, in the 1970s, using derogatory racist terms against whites on telly. Dozens of 'em.
Who said anything about black comedians.
Did you ever watch Love thy Neighbour.
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I remember in the mid 70s the “N word” was still included in one of the Rev Awdry books for kids (wasn’t themed on Thomas the tank engine then)..
Do you know that you can buy reprints of the original Rupert Bear annuals from the fifties and sixties. I'm not sure which one it is, but one of the years is unavailable because Rupert visits Coon Island! I had never really the friendly little bear with the chequered scarf and trousers as a closet NF member.
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The railway series book was reprinted to say the “boys ran away as black as coal” (they got blasted with soot). It was originally the N word..
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The railway series book was reprinted to say the “boys ran away as black as coal” (they got blasted with soot). It was originally the N word..
I believe Agatha Christies 'And then there were none' was originally titled 'Ten Little N***ers'. It was just a different era then.