Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: River Don on December 01, 2020, 12:59:52 pm
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It looks like nobody wants to buy the department stores and the Debenhams brand won't be particularly attractive. A lot of job losses.
It will also leave a big hole in the Frenchgate centre in Donny after Christmas, and other units look like be oming empty when Arcadia gives up the ghost.
It's difficult to imagine what high streets in towns like Donny will look like next year, when hopefully the virus begins to subside.
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We will all be walking around in rags soon. There will be nowhere left to but any decent clothing.
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Plenty of other local jobs in Donny affected aswell by these companies. Head office staff (Arcadia being heavily Yorkshire based), supply chains, logistics, people in all these areas affected by Arcadia/Debenhams etc, including people who post on this forum, really sad for the employees.
I also know having worked in 2 other very high profile companies that were liquidated how difficult it is having worked your arse off for your company. These employees will feel awful at some of the stuff they see/read, really unpleasant at times.
I remember a socialist worker campaigner outside our office in Sheffield City centre confronting us as we went in the office about 1 week post liquidation asking if we were ashamed of the company we worked for etc. I hate confrontation massively but he got much more stern words than I think I've ever given anyone.
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Loads of people will lose their jobs and future pension income.....Except Philip Green that is !!
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I used to work for a supplier of footwear into the large retailers. Debenhams were a big customer of ours.
I made many trips to London for meetings at Debenhams, Woolworths, BHS, Dorothy Perkins, ...... all retailers who have now gone or are going.
Apart from the job losses among employees of the retailers themselves, there will be a huge knock-on effect for the suppliers of Debenhams and Arcadia.
In the end it was the failure of Woolworths, Stylo, Barratts and Dolcis which caused the closure of the company I worked for, and my job went with it.
So I can empathise fully with the human stories behind these big retail failures.
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People need to rethink totally their attitude to clothing. Buying cheap throwaway rubbish for a few quid is wrong on so many counts. Sweatshop/child labour, transport and environmental costs to name but a few. It's much better to buy more expensive, quality items which looked after will last you for years. Or if you can't afford that a good tip is to visit charity shops in more affluent areas. You would be surprised of some of the hardly worn quality gear that can be bought for next to nothing.
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The system weakens until a link breaks and then there are knock on impacts all over. It's not only clothing. A huge chunk of floor space will be lost to beauty retailers and along with it therapists and counter staff. There will need to be a rethink in that industry. And then there is the fact the in many towns like Donny, Debenhams is an anchor store, it's existence driving footfall in to the Frenchgate, allowing other retailers and restaurants to piggy back on it.
It's a big challenge for Donny, a town which has been trying to invest in its high streets and markets for the last decade, despite the fact the writing has been on the wall for retail. The town centre needs a rethink and the council will have to come to terms with the fact that the high street retail cash cow is not going to return.
This will be the first year I will have bought all my main Christmas presents online. It's a massive change.
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It is RD that is totally correct. It needs a huge project as it changes massively the setup of our towns and cities and there needs to be a method that brings people to town centres. The knock on effects are certainly significant.
It is a very good point on the investment by the council, has it been misplaced in some ways investing in retail space?
Perhaps a rethink is needed and some real quality town centre housing could replace some of the lost areas, this bringing footfall to the area. I do sometimes think they missed a trick by not choosing the waterfront or marshgate sites for the stadium.
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Local councils have been bleeding shops dry for years with extortionate business rates, then they wonder why town centres look like a wilderness.
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Local councils have been bleeding shops dry for years with extortionate business rates, then they wonder why town centres look like a wilderness.
Now that I agree with.
Lack of free parking as well. I have never got my head round that one. Charge silly money for parking and you have totally killed off your town centre. Madness.
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Local councils have been bleeding shops dry for years with extortionate business rates, then they wonder why town centres look like a wilderness.
Now that I agree with.
Lack of free parking as well. I have never got my head round that one. Charge silly money for parking and you have totally killed off you town centre. Madness.
The problem is that many of the council people live in the 'public sector bubble' and have no concept on running a business and having to make money. They have a more or less guaranteed job for life and when they overspend it's always the fault of the government. In my opinion no one should be given any managerial position on the council unless they have at least ten experience in the private sector first.
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Remove party politics from local council elections, and stop paying exorbitant salaries to so called executive management.
Compare town and cities now to what they achieved with councilors in the past with councilors who did it voluntarily for personnel prestige who saw their localities as a reflection on themselves the buildings they built in such cities as Bradford destroyed and replaced with tack.
They were in it for themselves but didn't pocket it for themselves their legacy in a lot of cases is still there to be enjoyed as something worth looking at, some of the modern stuff is there as a joke at great expense to the local public
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Local councils have been bleeding shops dry for years with extortionate business rates, then they wonder why town centres look like a wilderness.
Now that I agree with.
Lack of free parking as well. I have never got my head round that one. Charge silly money for parking and you have totally killed off your town centre. Madness.
I am with you on that Camps.
The parking charges and restrictions have driven people away from the town centre and to the out of town retail parks.
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I suppose councils have to get money from somewhere?
''Poor urban councils bear majority of Tory funding cuts, study shows
Research finds some metropolitan authorities have £100m a year less to spend''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/24/deprived-urban-areas-shoulder-burden-of-funding-cuts
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I suppose councils have to get money from somewhere?
''Poor urban councils bear majority of Tory funding cuts, study shows
Research finds some metropolitan authorities have £100m a year less to spend''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/24/deprived-urban-areas-shoulder-burden-of-funding-cuts
But the answer cannot be screwing over retailers to the point that they shut down, put their staff on the dole and another boarded shop front in the town centre. They should be attracting businesses with lower rates and free parking and getting the undesirables cleared from the streets so decent people feel safe to go into town and spend money. This will all fund the big wheel of prosperity.
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I'm not saying it does but for the council to provide services where do you suggest it gets it's money from or which services to cut?
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I'm not saying it does but for the council to provide services where do you suggest it gets it's money from or which services to cut?
Well there going to have even less when the shops are all shut.
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put yourself in the position of the council, what do you do next?
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put yourself in the position of the council, what do you do next?
Carry out an audit on how efficiently the business is run. Where can wastefulness be eliminated? Look at the wage structure for management. The new council offices can't have been cheap can they?
Maybe councils need to re-evaluate their role. They need to concentrate on the essentials such as roads, street lighting, bin collections etc rather than running this that an d the other events. I would imagine most peoples concerns would be for a clean , tidy and safe town to live in with a thriving town centre.
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The Frenchgate will be massively on its arse. Debenhams were the main anchor store, and there is no one else large enough to take on a unit that size.
I know they are or were planning to mothball part of the centre anyway. They had planning permission for a cinema, but non of the main cinema operators would touch the place with a bargepole.
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The system weakens until a link breaks and then there are knock on impacts all over. It's not only clothing. A huge chunk of floor space will be lost to beauty retailers and along with it therapists and counter staff. There will need to be a rethink in that industry. And then there is the fact the in many towns like Donny, Debenhams is an anchor store, it's existence driving footfall in to the Frenchgate, allowing other retailers and restaurants to piggy back on it.
It's a big challenge for Donny, a town which has been trying to invest in its high streets and markets for the last decade, despite the fact the writing has been on the wall for retail. The town centre needs a rethink and the council will have to come to terms with the fact that the high street retail cash cow is not going to return.
This will be the first year I will have bought all my main Christmas presents online. It's a massive change.
The council has thrown loads of money into evening entertainment places such as the Wool Market.
I personally love what they've done with it, but unfortunately, know some of the traders in there, i'd be very surprised if it was still open in a years time.
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This may help AL with your Audit Al
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Keaf1WnIZEE
What doesn't help is that Sth Yorkshire is one of the poorest areas of Europe
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The system weakens until a link breaks and then there are knock on impacts all over. It's not only clothing. A huge chunk of floor space will be lost to beauty retailers and along with it therapists and counter staff. There will need to be a rethink in that industry. And then there is the fact the in many towns like Donny, Debenhams is an anchor store, it's existence driving footfall in to the Frenchgate, allowing other retailers and restaurants to piggy back on it.
It's a big challenge for Donny, a town which has been trying to invest in its high streets and markets for the last decade, despite the fact the writing has been on the wall for retail. The town centre needs a rethink and the council will have to come to terms with the fact that the high street retail cash cow is not going to return.
This will be the first year I will have bought all my main Christmas presents online. It's a massive change.
The council has thrown loads of money into evening entertainment places such as the Wool Market.
I personally love what they've done with it, but unfortunately, know some of the traders in there, i'd be very surprised if it was still open in a years time.
I really don't understand the whole idea of the wool market, when I have been in there it is empty and half of the traders speaking to a source have moved out of there because of high rents and that they want it only as an 'eatery' rather than having shops in there. The very moment I walked in there and saw teenagers riding on there bikes in there gives me a pretty good idea what it will become.
The problem with Doncaster Town Centre is it is too spread out and needs everything bringing in together rather than everything being so wide spread. You have the market but situated in about 3 or 4 different buildings, Waterdale, Frenchgate, Colannades it is just all too much.
Town doesn't really offer that much except shops, betting shops and pubs and that is even if half of them shut after Covid 19.
I have a young child what exactly would I take her there for and what is there to do. I'd go to York instead plenty to do there unlike Donny Town Centre full of spice heads. Maybe DMBC should ask the general public what they actually want it is alright building new market buildings but is it what people want?
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The system weakens until a link breaks and then there are knock on impacts all over. It's not only clothing. A huge chunk of floor space will be lost to beauty retailers and along with it therapists and counter staff. There will need to be a rethink in that industry. And then there is the fact the in many towns like Donny, Debenhams is an anchor store, it's existence driving footfall in to the Frenchgate, allowing other retailers and restaurants to piggy back on it.
It's a big challenge for Donny, a town which has been trying to invest in its high streets and markets for the last decade, despite the fact the writing has been on the wall for retail. The town centre needs a rethink and the council will have to come to terms with the fact that the high street retail cash cow is not going to return.
This will be the first year I will have bought all my main Christmas presents online. It's a massive change.
The council has thrown loads of money into evening entertainment places such as the Wool Market.
I personally love what they've done with it, but unfortunately, know some of the traders in there, i'd be very surprised if it was still open in a years time.
I really don't understand the whole idea of the wool market, when I have been in there it is empty and half of the traders speaking to a source have moved out of there because of high rents and that they want it only as an 'eatery' rather than having shops in there. The very moment I walked in there and saw teenagers riding on there bikes in there gives me a pretty good idea what it will become.
The problem with Doncaster Town Centre is it is too spread out and needs everything bringing in together rather than everything being so wide spread. You have the market but situated in about 3 or 4 different buildings, Waterdale, Frenchgate, Colannades it is just all too much.
Town doesn't really offer that much except shops, betting shops and pubs and that is even if half of them shut after Covid 19.
I have a young child what exactly would I take her there for and what is there to do. I'd go to York instead plenty to do there unlike Donny Town Centre full of spice heads. Maybe DMBC should ask the general public what they actually want it is alright building new market buildings and yet more restaurants when loads have already shut. Is it what people want though and is there any real kind of plan?
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Covid and the changing habits of shoppers are a massive challenge for all councils, not just Donny.
York is held up here but there are a lot of empty shop units in York now. Particularly on Coney Street, which is supposed to be the main shopping street. Debenhams shut down long before Covid in York and the hospitality sector was already under pressure. Jamie Oliver's had already closed. Before Covid locals complained there were very few proper shops left in the centre, only bars and stag dos. York is so reliant on tourism, Covid is really crushing the hospitality sector, all those winding streets, cosy pubs and quaint cafes, it's no good for social distancing.
York has its historic centre and so there is the prospect of a return to business but it's going to be a very long haul before that happens.
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A historic shift is going on. What it means is traditional town centres and markets are no longer as valuable as they once were. Town councils can't keep on trying to milk them. They are just failing and closing down.
At the same time retail online is relatively lightly taxed, it isn't a level playing field. But international big business cannot be taxed by local town councils. That's a job for government and one they haven't been very willing to grasp.
I think there has got to be a readjustment and councils are probably going to have to look to central government for more of their funding in future.
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I think it's probably right that town centres will only become vibrant again is when people live there. Once upon a time there were lots of flats above shops for example but now I'm guessing there's lots of empty commercial properties that could be converted to decent affordable accommodation. There are streets that were once pure retail but has quickly become dead space.
It's going to take years to transform but it's got to happen at some point.
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There are problems with bringing more housing back into town centres. It's very bad for the nighttime economy for one thing, residents don't like noisy bars and nightclubs or rowdy streets with takeaways and taxi ranks.
It's about striking a balance and in Donny I think there probably is scope to centralise retail areas somewhat. I don't think anyone would be too disheartened if the Waterdale was flattened and replaced with nice townhouses laid out in squares.
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They've done an excellent job in Sheffield of resurrecting a city centre that was in a shocking state 25 years ago.
Set piece public space attractions like the Peace Gardens, the Winter Gardens, the Millennium Gallery bring people into the city centre to BE there because it is an attractive space. Then they use the shops.
They run themed markets on Fargate a couple of times a month. Have big wheels and fun fairs for the kids. Our kids, when they were younger used to ask us to take them into town because it was fun for them.
That's the future of town centres. Make them attractive public spaces where people want to come to pass time. Not marketised shopping zones.
As for housing, Sheffield has lots around the town centre and it mainly attracts students and young professionals. Who want to be in the centre of the night time economy.
It's not hard to do if you get a strategic vision of what you want. They started that in Sheffield 25 years ago. And God knows it's not perfect but it is unrecognisable from the bomb site it was in the early 90s.
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Additionally they also need to make parking for free between certain times or at weekends bring people into the town centre.
Scunthorpe do it at a weekend where their retail offering is and markets I believe etc.
The issue is it is all shops, shops and shops and when they're closing it shows you that the general public aren't using them. Everyone always seems to blame online shopping if anything the independent shops are a lot better than the bigger shops as there is more of a customer orientated feels to it where as you could walk in 80% of the shops and not one person in the shop speaks to you on the shop floor.
The issue is the rents and business rates are that high they will inevitably take their business online and trade via their own website, or amazon ebay etc.
Who is it that is actually making the decisions on the plan for the town centre.
I like what they've done at the train station looks very smart, in my opinion the Cast is pretty decent too but besides that I don't really see what they're are doing with it.
The only thing I can think of on the top of my head is shops, banks and betting shops that is generally about it and not much else. Totally uninspiring.
With Debenhams now going from the Frenchgate and Argos as well it is looking bleak for the retail offering in the town centre. Maybe time for a re think.
Maybe they ought to do a survey for the general public see what they actually want, at least no one can then complain. But do businesses want to come to Doncaster especially when in my opinion it looks scruffy and worn down.
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Agreed bst I think we'll see the demise of the huge shopping centres unless they adapt and change, the idea of basing a visit on a changeable attraction with shopping and eating a part of that experience is a good concept.
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Agreed bst I think we'll see the demise of the huge shopping centres unless they adapt and change, the idea of basing a visit on a changeable attraction with shopping and eating a part of that experience is a good concept.
You mean like Meadowhall, Trafford Centre, etc?
They are what has killed off town centres, and this is nothing new. It's been going on for 20 odd years. Sheffield has evolved over this time as BST states purely because it had to. City centre stores and traders were complaining about the impact of the big, new, shiny Meadowhall building 20 years ago and the council listened. That's how long these measures take to change mindsets and cultures. Once the public decides that a town centre isn't for them then that's hard to turn around when the alternative is free parking and a range of quality shops in one place that's warm and safe.
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I was thinking more along the lines that as the large chain stores are struggling, online shopping increasing and less money in people's pockets that the if larger shopping centres don't diversify they will have problems in the future.
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I agree. But the decline of town centres starts and ends with them.
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I agree. But the decline of town centres starts and ends with them.
Id agree to a large extent Rob but would add that pedestrianisation and restricting parking accellerated it. Convenience rules
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I agree. But the decline of town centres starts and ends with them.
Fair enough, I have to be careful to think about where I'm talking about, but as a reply to you and LDR, here wherever pedestrianisation is accelerated and public transport improved it brings more people to the area, but we don't have the really cold winters and the days of drizzle.
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I would argue rents are the largest issue. Pick out arcadia, why did their stores leave the Frenchgate or downsize, the rents are far too big when other retailers online have no rents and thus are cheaper. The problem is how do these centres survive?
I don't think Doncaster is too bad, streets ahead of Barnsley, Rotherham, Scunthorpe but the town has to evolve.
Right now with the demise of arcadia its more pressing to find jobs for those who will now likely be unemployed like Mrs bfyp unfortunately.
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Large shopping centres usually have a refit policy in contracts to ensure a store maintains 'the look' of the centre so they have to pay for a new fitout each 3-5years which on top of rent as you say bfyp and wages it's a tough ask. I hope Mrs bfyp survives any changes. Commercial rents in Sydney have ploughed on with 5% increases every year regardless of economic conditions.
It's not unusual for smaller stores to vacate before the refit is due.
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I don't think Doncaster is too bad, streets ahead of Barnsley, Rotherham, Scunthorpe but the town has to evolve.
Not sure Barnsley is worse than us
I was speaking to a market trader this week who has had a stall at Doncaster for nearly 50 years and they have opened up two small shops in Barnsley and that's keeping them afloat. He's thinking of pulling out of Doncaster all together as they get no assistance at all from the Council yet Barnsley council are much more approachable.
This is an outdoor market clothes stall.
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I don't think Doncaster is too bad, streets ahead of Barnsley, Rotherham, Scunthorpe but the town has to evolve.
Not sure Barnsley is worse than us
I was speaking to a market trader this week who has had a stall at Doncaster for nearly 50 years and they have opened up two small shops in Barnsley and that's keeping them afloat. He's thinking of pulling out of Doncaster all together as they get no assistance at all from the Council yet Barnsley council are much more approachable.
This is an outdoor market clothes stall.
Much less choice of shops, bars, pubs and restaurants in Barnsley.
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Barnsley has sunk a small fortune into their new market development, with street food stalls and the like dotted throughout it. It's been a great success.
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What is the most popular prefered option:
1) Go to your nearest supermarket or outlet and park for free while you walk the short distance to buy your goods. Then, walk the short distance back to your car, with the stuff still in the supermarket trolly, and avoiding the occasionally unavoidable scenario of having to pay for something to be delivered.
Or:
2) Pay to park your car in town. Walk a much greater distance to buy your goods. Then carry your stuff back in several bags (unless they are too big and heavy so you have to pay for delivery), while avoiding bumping into, or tripping over the occasional smackhead?
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Barnsley has sunk a small fortune into their new market development, with street food stalls and the like dotted throughout it. It's been a great success.
Same as the Wool Market then.
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I would argue rents are the largest issue. Pick out arcadia, why did their stores leave the Frenchgate or downsize, the rents are far too big when other retailers online have no rents and thus are cheaper. The problem is how do these centres survive?
I don't think Doncaster is too bad, streets ahead of Barnsley, Rotherham, Scunthorpe but the town has to evolve.
Right now with the demise of arcadia its more pressing to find jobs for those who will now likely be unemployed like Mrs bfyp unfortunately.
Really sorry to hear that BFYP. I hope you don't get hit too hard by this.
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I would argue rents are the largest issue. Pick out arcadia, why did their stores leave the Frenchgate or downsize, the rents are far too big when other retailers online have no rents and thus are cheaper. The problem is how do these centres survive?
I don't think Doncaster is too bad, streets ahead of Barnsley, Rotherham, Scunthorpe but the town has to evolve.
Right now with the demise of arcadia its more pressing to find jobs for those who will now likely be unemployed like Mrs bfyp unfortunately.
Really sorry to hear that BFYP. I hope you don't get hit too hard by this.
Given my employment history it's nothing new to me
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I've said many times BFYP, I truly feel for your generation. You've been left a shite inheritance by mine and the one before.
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What is the most popular prefered option:
1) Go to your nearest supermarket or outlet and park for free while you walk the short distance to buy your goods. Then, walk the short distance back to your car, with the stuff still in the supermarket trolly, and avoiding the occasionally unavoidable scenario of having to pay for something to be delivered.
Or:
2) Pay to park your car in town. Walk a much greater distance to buy your goods. Then carry your stuff back in several bags (unless they are too big and heavy so you have to pay for delivery), while avoiding bumping into, or tripping over the occasional smackhead?
Or
3) click to pay and wait for the delivery man.
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Additionally they also need to make parking for free between certain times or at weekends bring people into the town centre.
Scunthorpe do it at a weekend where their retail offering is and markets I believe etc.
The issue is it is all shops, shops and shops and when they're closing it shows you that the general public aren't using them. Everyone always seems to blame online shopping if anything the independent shops are a lot better than the bigger shops as there is more of a customer orientated feels to it where as you could walk in 80% of the shops and not one person in the shop speaks to you on the shop floor.
The issue is the rents and business rates are that high they will inevitably take their business online and trade via their own website, or amazon ebay etc.
Who is it that is actually making the decisions on the plan for the town centre.
I like what they've done at the train station looks very smart, in my opinion the Cast is pretty decent too but besides that I don't really see what they're are doing with it.
The only thing I can think of on the top of my head is shops, banks and betting shops that is generally about it and not much else. Totally uninspiring.
With Debenhams now going from the Frenchgate and Argos as well it is looking bleak for the retail offering in the town centre. Maybe time for a re think.
Maybe they ought to do a survey for the general public see what they actually want, at least no one can then complain. But do businesses want to come to Doncaster especially when in my opinion it looks scruffy and worn down.
If there is a survey to see what people want the undoubtedly there will be different opinions so whatever the council decide to do then there will be some people who complain.
A bit like Brexit or a GE I suppose.
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Simon Wolfson chief exec of Next advocates raising rates on warehousing and lowering it on shops.
Just doing that would help to level the playing field between online and physical retailers a bit.
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How would that solve the problems of town centre shopping? It's more the sheer inconvenience of it more than the price of goods in the shops.
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I think price is a big factor. Businesses like Boohoo compete very aggressively on price.
Primark is one high street store that keeps dragging the customers in. Somehow it remains very competitive on price.
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I think price is a big factor. Businesses like Boohoo compete very aggressively on price.
Primark is one high street store that keeps dragging the customers in. Somehow it remains very competitive on price.
Neither myself or my wife would buy clothing online.
We like to try stuff on and feel the quality of the product, something you can’t do when buying online.
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That maybe true for some Hound. Personally if I see a bargain and the sizing guide looks good I go for it. I bought a jacket, direct from a Chinese brand, just £30 including shipping from China. When it arrived I couldn't believe the quality of it, good weight cotton, well finished seams, high quality metal fastenings.
Something like that would cost a lot more from a high street shop.
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I’m sure it would RD.
You took the chance and it paid off for you.
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I think price is a big factor. Businesses like Boohoo compete very aggressively on price.
Primark is one high street store that keeps dragging the customers in. Somehow it remains very competitive on price.
Helps that they likely pay about 2p an hour to the people that make their tat, though. And that it's hardly long-lasting material.
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I think price is a big factor. Businesses like Boohoo compete very aggressively on price.
Primark is one high street store that keeps dragging the customers in. Somehow it remains very competitive on price.
Helps that they likely pay about 2p an hour to the people that make their tat, though. And that it's hardly long-lasting material.
A lot of what is available in this country is made in China and the cheap stuff usually is cheap. There is a big markup on it nevertheless.
This is not a cheap garment though, it's heavy weight cotton twill. I did buy it direct though, cutting out the middleman.
I took a bit of a risk with it admittedly but there was still the guarantee and option of returning it with eBay.
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I think price is a big factor. Businesses like Boohoo compete very aggressively on price.
Primark is one high street store that keeps dragging the customers in. Somehow it remains very competitive on price.
Neither myself or my wife would buy clothing online.
We like to try stuff on and feel the quality of the product, something you can’t do when buying online.
No trying on clothes at the moment, hope your wardrobe is well stocked
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I think price is a big factor. Businesses like Boohoo compete very aggressively on price.
Primark is one high street store that keeps dragging the customers in. Somehow it remains very competitive on price.
Neither myself or my wife would buy clothing online.
We like to try stuff on and feel the quality of the product, something you can’t do when buying online.
No trying on clothes at the moment, hope your wardrobe is well stocked
It is.
There is nothing I need in the clothing department.
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Mike Ashley will buy it to add to his portfolio , he will be waiting for the right price