Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: River Don on March 08, 2021, 02:00:37 pm
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So they don't like the intrusivenesss of the British press and the demands of being in 'the firm' , so they sod off to America...
Where they continually court the media, culminating in a full 2 hour long expose with Oprah. And one of their main complaints is the young boy isn't getting a royal title and they want free security.
It seems to me they want to make up their minds what they do want because it appears they're trying to claw back all the royal attention they supposedly didn't want.
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There were warnings of what she is like from her half siblings, everyone just brushed those warnings aside as jealousy.She plays the race card, and at the same time blames her estranged father for being mixed race. Another American divorcee causing trouble
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Viva La Republic
Referendum 50 / 50 ?
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Far from a royalist but come on. The way those 2 have been treated is disgraceful. Our press is constantly hounding them to the point where they've left the country, and they're still going! What's Meghan actually supposed to have done to warrant being savaged worse than Prince Andrew, who is an actual nonce wanted by the FBI? Like what is she actually on record as having said or done? f**k all, apart from be a black woman who's an actress. She's too low-born, she isn't his distant cousin so Harry's breaking royal protocol by marrying her. And if you think that's "playing the race card", what other explanation would you come up with for this? https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/meghan-markle-kate-middleton-double-standards-royal
There's a difference between doing an interview on your terms and being hounded and abused by the press to the point where you need to leave the country. Maybe, just maybe, Harry remembers how the royals and the press treated his mam, and he's decided he doesn't want any part of it now he sees the same thing happening again.
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Does anybody like the intrusiveness of the British press?
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It's both for me. The British press are shocking and I do believe her on racism in the royal family. But then again she's gone over there to get away from our press yet appears on Oprah, etc which would obviously entice the press.
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Typical of the rags that we call the Press MM. That last double standards piece by Sarah Vine tops the lot. At least in most cases there's a seemly gap of a couple of years between the articles fawning over one and haranguing the other. Vine does a flip in barely six weeks. Quite an achievement for Michael Gove to find a wife who has even lower standards than his own.
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I thought she was treated just the same as anyone else in the royal family by the public. I never heard any mention of her race and her wedding to Harry was celebrated as much as any other royal wedding, and more than some of them. Personally, I didn't even notice she was Black, and I suspect many others didn't either. Not that it would have made an ha'peth of difference.
It's as though she's exploiting her race withing the royal family similar to Daffyd's claim of being the only gay in the village in the Little Britain TV show, in a badly done to way, so she could bugger off back to America with Harry, on her terms.
It seems to me she's spent her adult life trying to cop off with someone famous and finally pulled Prince Harry. He's fallen for it hook, line and sinker and moved to California because she didn't want to live in England.
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I have a bit of sympathy for Harry, I'm not sure he's ever wanted to be royal etc. But I'm surprised given he wants quietness that he's bringing it up so much? Feels more like a business move than anything else and that is what I struggle with.
The press should just agree to leave them alone, nobody really cares do they? Let them do what they want as long as they get no public money that's fine.
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It would be very revealing if they were ignored by the world press and then started courting exposure at every opportunity. A likely scenario I think if it were to happen.
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Another one who used slippy knickers to catch a sprat.
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Thing is she was warned fully, and asked several times 'are you sure' before marrying into royalty.
She's been accused of bullying, and has gone through so many staff and nanny's, it just backs up the bullying accusation.
She's now been very well paid for an interview, so its in her interest to sensationalise it and give the network the sensational headlines they paid for.
There's a clip doing the rounds where she says "that's the truth" it the 2 seconds she says it, she literally blinks almost 10 times, it's obvious she's lying or at least exaggerating.
Countless stories of her upsetting staff, going against protocol, and arguing against hundreds of years old traditions.
Kate was a breath of fresh air, meghan the opposite. Absolutely disgusting behaviour.
Sorry if I don't believe anything she says.
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Smoke and mirrors.
No one talks about Uncle Peado. Brushed under the carpet, forgotten. Nothing to see here.
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It would be very revealing if they were ignored by the world press and then started courting exposure at every opportunity. A likely scenario I think if it were to happen.
It is already happening. He doesn't have a role, all he's got is the connection to royalty. She's an actress who has married a prince. They have a life of luxury to fund and their only real asset is their celebrity. So they need the attention of the press, like it or not they are wedded to it. Unfortunately courting the press is a double edged sword.
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I thought she was treated just the same as anyone else in the royal family by the public. I never heard any mention of her race and her wedding to Harry was celebrated as much as any other royal wedding, and more than some of them. Personally, I didn't even notice she was Black, and I suspect many others didn't either. Not that it would have made an ha'peth of difference.
It's as though she's exploiting her race withing the royal family similar to Daffyd's claim of being the only gay in the village in the Little Britain TV show, in a badly done to way, so she could bugger off back to America with Harry, on her terms.
It seems to me she's spent her adult life trying to cop off with someone famous and finally pulled Prince Harry. He's fallen for it hook, line and sinker and moved to California because she didn't want to live in England.
But she isn't talking about you. She is talking about the royal family.
Who had no problem welcoming the introduction into their ranks of the daughter of an SS Major.
Who thought wearing a blackamoor brooch to have dinner with Meghan was entirely appropriate and wouldn't be a problem in 21st century Britain:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42462724
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Kate was a breath of fresh air, meghan the opposite. Absolutely disgusting behaviour.
Qwhite an interesting point.
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Does anybody like the intrusiveness of the British press?
I like it when they are exposing duck islands and other MPs expenses claims.
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From the comments I can’t tell if it has been shown yet in the UK, but if not be sure to watch because it is very disturbing. I figured it would be a tell-all superficial interview, but it was a deeply personal conversation that was truly upsetting. Some of it is cringeworthy and you can see them steel themselves when asked some of the questions. Oprah is direct and pointed in her questions and asked for clarification more than once. To be fair whether you like Megan or not, Harry verified all of her comments.
My personal opinion is they tried to get rid of her from the beginning and was racially motivated. Maybe not the royals themselves so much as the people behind the machine.
Here is a good synopsis.
https://apple.news/ASHULP9wUQv2Hnqk2t2yQRg
Also a Twitter feed from an ITV reporter:
https://twitter.com/chrisshipitv/status/1368729014966382596?s=21
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Personally, I couldn't give a flying sh*t about any of this.
I'm much more interested in Andy Butler's magic hat at the moment.
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I thought she was treated just the same as anyone else in the royal family by the public. I never heard any mention of her race and her wedding to Harry was celebrated as much as any other royal wedding, and more than some of them. Personally, I didn't even notice she was Black, and I suspect many others didn't either. Not that it would have made an ha'peth of difference.
It's as though she's exploiting her race withing the royal family similar to Daffyd's claim of being the only gay in the village in the Little Britain TV show, in a badly done to way, so she could bugger off back to America with Harry, on her terms.
It seems to me she's spent her adult life trying to cop off with someone famous and finally pulled Prince Harry. He's fallen for it hook, line and sinker and moved to California because she didn't want to live in England.
But she isn't talking about you. She is talking about the royal family.
Who had no problem welcoming the introduction into their ranks of the daughter of an SS Major.
Who thought wearing a blackamoor brooch to have dinner with Meghan was entirely appropriate and wouldn't be a problem in 21st century Britain:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42462724
Who said she is talking about me? She is having a pop at the Royal family this time. She was having a pop at the press before that. Maybe she'll have a pop at me next time, although by all accounts she just wants a quiet, Royal free, Press free, public free life so I might be wrong.
Interesting link. I wonder what makes people so interested in becoming authorities in brooch racism?
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Personally, I couldn't give a flying sh*t about any of this.
I'm much more interested in Andy Butler's magic hat at the moment.
I've asked for a copy of the interview to be put in my coffin which I'll read later.
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Does anybody like the intrusiveness of the British press?
I like it when they are exposing duck islands and other MPs expenses claims.
There are 2 sides to the British press. There's the investigative journalism, holding truth to power side, and the tabloid gutter press side. The Panama papers Vs the Sun's Hillsborough reporting.
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This accusation that the British Press is racist to them. Not very specific is it, the best example they could come up with was conflicting stories about eating avacado.
I noticed at least a couple of the headlines they put on screen to highlight the racist nature of the press were from Danny Baker-gate. A story the press was reporting, about an anti-monarchy DJ who wasn't actually intending to be racist. He was just a stupid and he got sacked for his lack of judgement.
The press industry have asked for specific examples of racial prejudice. I think they will struggle to come up with them.
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The insinuation that security and title were being held back from Archie because he's black was well off the mark too.
The Royal family have had plans to slim down and concentrate on the core family has been in place long before Harry even met Megan. The royals are aware that they need to cut costs.
In all the couples demands for security the words British taxpayer wasn't uttered once.
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RD, check the link up the thread. There's plenty of examples, the avocado thing is just a famous one. What other explanation could there be for covering two similar women in similar roles in such a different manner? That doesn't even get into articles talking about her being "straight outta Compton". She was seen as not royal enough because she's low born and black. There's no other possible explanation.
The royals could have stepped in at any point to make it go away, but they didn't. They stepped in to stop people calling Andrew a nonce but not to stop them going after the black woman? Makes you think. The most telling part was when Harry discussed the invisible contract between the tabloids and the palace. Pulling back the curtain and exposing the game is why the media are so angry, I think. They've been exposed and they're circling the wagons.
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Alright MM there is a lot to go through there but if we take the now infamous flower girl spat.
The Express reported Kate Middleton had a posy in her hands that included Lily of the Valley.
Later the Express reported that the flower girls at Megan's wedding had Lilly of the Valley in their headdresses. They then point out the flower is poisonous and it might not have been such a good idea to include them for little kids.
It looks like Kate scolded Megan about this and there were tears. Shocking. Were the press briefed about this oversight by Kate's team?...
Racial prejudice? I don't think it is. In the first instance a responsible adult is handling poisonous flowers in the second, small children.
They won't make that complaint of prejudice stick at the press complaints commission.
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
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BST
Take a look how often those disparaging remarks in the press are attributed to a palace aide or could quite easily have been requested from the palace.
My guess is what the complaint actually is, is someone in the family has been briefing against them...
Less to do with structural racism in the British press, more family tensions I'd say.
I agree with Harry on one point, the Royals are held in a bubble. They are prisoners in a guilded cage.
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
Eggsf**kingzactly
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
Fantastically put Sir!!!
Made me cringe a bit how a billionaire was interviewing 2 privileged millionaires, and talking about how they have been oppressed.
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
As a parent to one mixed race child with another on the way, I can safely say that if a white person expressed concern my child would be born too black, that would be extremely f**king racist and I'd make sure they knew about it!
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
As a parent to one mixed race child with another on the way, I can safely say that if a white person expressed concern my child would be born too black, that would be extremely f**king racist and I'd make sure they knew about it!
That's fair enough if someone was "expressing concern"
But the point Filo was making is merely talking about the child's features in the same way as eye colour, and hair etc.
Which categorically isn't racist.
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Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Meghan claim the question of the baby's colour occurred when she was pregnant with Archie, but later, when Harry was asked about the incident he said it happened early on when the couple had just met.
If I heard that right, are they both telling the truth?
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But did Prince Charles (£ to a penny it was him) use a form of words like that MM?
He was clearly wondering about the colour of the child, no question that's racist but you have to take into account his age and how the older generations often misstep when navigating this minefield.
My other half is South Asian and God knows my parents have said things they didn't mean that have been racist. I have all on trying to get my Mum to stop calling black people coloureds for instance. She doesn't mean to be racist, she's in her 80s and can't remember the politically correct way to phrase things.
Ultimately I think we can discount the idea that the British Press is racist. In this day and age media organisations cannot afford to be, the idea is ludicrous and they will never make that stick.
The idea that there have been tensions and jealousies in the Royal family and that some of it has got in the press through aides is only too plausible. The idea that older members of the royal family may have racist views or outdated views or maybe don't express their opinion on the matter well, that's only to be expected. Do I think Prince Charles is prejudice or really a racist? No, I don't think he is for a minute.
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There are no winners here. Hazza and Meg are kitsons and the royal family are kitsons. The media are kitsons and Piers Morgan is a kitson.
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But did Prince Charles (£ to a penny it was him) use a form of words like that MM?
He was clearly wondering about the colour of the child, no question that's racist but you have to take into account his age and how the older generations often misstep when navigating this minefield.
My other half is South Asian and God knows my parents have said things they didn't mean that have been racist. I have all on trying to get my Mum to stop calling black people coloureds for instance. She doesn't mean to be racist, she's in her 80s and can't remember the politically correct way to phrase things.
Ultimately I think we can discount the idea that the British Press is racist. In this day and age media organisations cannot afford to be, the idea is ludicrous and they will never make that stick.
The idea that there have been tensions and jealousies in the Royal family and that some of it has got in the press through aides is only too plausible. The idea that older members of the royal family may have racist views or outdated views or maybe don't express their opinion on the matter well, that's only to be expected. Do I think Prince Charles is prejudice or really a racist? No, I don't think he is for a minute.
But "wondering about the colour of the child" surely to god isn't racist.
In the same way as wondering about hair, eye colour, height, build and who he will take after?
Excited questions every family ever has talked about.
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To me wondering about the colour of the child isn't really racist but it depends how it was phrased. Wondering if the public would accept a black Prince is racist.
It depends what exactly was said, and what exactly was meant. It is a minefield.
Harry has said he won't discuss it, so we don't know. We do know he stopped talking to his dad for a while.
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To me wondering about the colour of the child isn't really racist but it depends how it was phrased. Wondering if the public would accept a black Prince is racist.
It depends what exactly was said, and what exactly was meant. It is a minefield.
Harry has said he won't discuss it, so we don't know. We do know he stopped talking to his dad for a while.
Meghan was vague about when it was questioned but made it sound like it was a direct question relevant to Archie. Harry when pushed clearly said it was questioned before they were married, ie 'what will the kids look like if you have them with her' - sounded far more sinister than just standard speculation about having Daddy's ginger hair or Mummy's eye colour.
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I believe Harry told Meghan "there were concerns" the baby might be black - that is f**king racist.
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Apparently it has been clarified that the whole of the Royal Family was in a Pizza Express in Woking when the alleged comment was made.
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But "wondering about the colour of the child" surely to god isn't racist.
In the same way as wondering about hair, eye colour, height, build and who he will take after?
Excited questions every family ever has talked about.
If you wonder whether a child will be black or white, why the f**k does it even matter? And if you do wonder shit like that, keep it to yourself. Whether you have racist intentions or not, it is casual racism. Wondering about a kids eye colour, or height, or hair colour isn't racist, because your not thinking about someones race.
ffs
Apparently it has been clarified that the whole of the Royal Family was in a Pizza Express in Woking when the alleged comment was made.
:lol:
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Yes, reading between the lines it appears Harry was asked if any children would be black or dark or brown. It suggest there was a question over whether this would be acceptable. Racist.
But we don't know the context or meaning or anything. For instance, was he wondering if that might be an issue with the public. Perhaps he wanted to know or would have asked how they should be handled in the media. Not so racist.
And even if he was saying I don't think we want black grandchildren, then was it from the point of view that it's just going to cause us all problems, are you sure you want to do this? Racist but not such bad racism as I don't want black kids in our family. Full stop.
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But did Prince Charles (£ to a penny it was him) use a form of words like that MM?
He was clearly wondering about the colour of the child, no question that's racist but you have to take into account his age and how the older generations often misstep when navigating this minefield.
My other half is South Asian and God knows my parents have said things they didn't mean that have been racist. I have all on trying to get my Mum to stop calling black people coloureds for instance. She doesn't mean to be racist, she's in her 80s and can't remember the politically correct way to phrase things.
Ultimately I think we can discount the idea that the British Press is racist. In this day and age media organisations cannot afford to be, the idea is ludicrous and they will never make that stick.
The idea that there have been tensions and jealousies in the Royal family and that some of it has got in the press through aides is only too plausible. The idea that older members of the royal family may have racist views or outdated views or maybe don't express their opinion on the matter well, that's only to be expected. Do I think Prince Charles is prejudice or really a racist? No, I don't think he is for a minute.
Well, we don't know it was Charles although I agree he's the most likely. You'd think any royal, with their links to the commonwealth, would know better. But maybe that's the problem - they're from a centuries-old bloodline which is to this day almost worshipped as a divine family, and those colonial attitudes are hard to unlearn.
I agree that people can misstep and say something inadvertently racist, without being actually racist themselves. God knows I'm not perfect and have put my foot in it before. The difference is I was actually able to listen why what I'd said was wrong and came out of it a better person. Too many will just immediately go on the defensive, throw their toys out the pram and whine about the race card instead of actually reflecting on what they've said. Too many take "you've said something racist" to be the end of the conversation, when really it should be the start. That's where the problem lies for me. And it's a problem being played out in the press as we speak. Are they interrogating what was actually said - the racist comments, the treatment of Meghan which was undoubtedly motivated by racism, the fact that she was suicidal? No - they're circling the wagons and looking after their own. It's also worth mentioning that our journalists are around 85% white, and a large proportion of them (I forget the exact figure) were educated in similar private institutions to the royals. They all shit in the same pot. There is no representation and balance in our press.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the racism of the press I'm afraid. The Mail, the Express and the Sun in particular all have a decades-long history of vile headlines and behaviour, and there's categorical evidence that they treat people of colour more harshly than white people. Do they print swastikas on the front page - no, but most racism is subtler than that. Surely as football fans we all know this better than anyone. Remember the treatment Sterling got? None of this is mentioning magazines like the Spectator, which has published actual neo-Nazis in the last couple of years, or that Guido Fawkes rag. It's messy, and getting into it involves having some uncomfortable conversations about Britain and British culture which people don't like having.
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great post macho :aok:
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But "wondering about the colour of the child" surely to god isn't racist.
In the same way as wondering about hair, eye colour, height, build and who he will take after?
Excited questions every family ever has talked about.
If you wonder whether a child will be black or white, why the f**k does it even matter? And if you do wonder shit like that, keep it to yourself. Whether you have racist intentions or not, it is casual racism. Wondering about a kids eye colour, or height, or hair colour isn't racist, because your not thinking about someones race.
ffs
Apparently it has been clarified that the whole of the Royal Family was in a Pizza Express in Woking when the alleged comment was made.
:lol:
Your right, it doesn't matter one bit.
But neither does talking about potential eye or hair colour of a baby.
But families the world over still talk about it with excitement.
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But "wondering about the colour of the child" surely to god isn't racist.
In the same way as wondering about hair, eye colour, height, build and who he will take after?
Excited questions every family ever has talked about.
If you wonder whether a child will be black or white, why the f**k does it even matter? And if you do wonder shit like that, keep it to yourself. Whether you have racist intentions or not, it is casual racism. Wondering about a kids eye colour, or height, or hair colour isn't racist, because your not thinking about someones race.
ffs
Apparently it has been clarified that the whole of the Royal Family was in a Pizza Express in Woking when the alleged comment was made.
:lol:
Your right, it doesn't matter one bit.
But neither does talking about potential eye or hair colour of a baby.
But families the world over still talk about it with excitement.
There's potentially two very different conversations here. And only Harry and AN Other know which one it was (or potentially where in the scale between the two is). Harry seemed to be suggesting the former, which is DEFINITELY racist.
'if you marry her we are concerned that any children you have will not be white'
'we can't wait to meet the baby and we wonder if his skin will be fair or dark, not that it matters either way to us'
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Superb post MM.
And I couldn't agree more about the editors and leaing journalists in the gutter rags. They are almost exclusively public school and Oxbridge educated, but they deliberately dumb down and play & stoke up the prejudices of their readers. If individuals get chewed up and spat out as part of that process, or if societies get split, tough shit, as long as the money rolls in.
Reprehensible examples of humanity.
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But "wondering about the colour of the child" surely to god isn't racist.
In the same way as wondering about hair, eye colour, height, build and who he will take after?
Excited questions every family ever has talked about.
If you wonder whether a child will be black or white, why the f**k does it even matter? And if you do wonder shit like that, keep it to yourself. Whether you have racist intentions or not, it is casual racism. Wondering about a kids eye colour, or height, or hair colour isn't racist, because your not thinking about someones race.
ffs
Apparently it has been clarified that the whole of the Royal Family was in a Pizza Express in Woking when the alleged comment was made.
:lol:
Your right, it doesn't matter one bit.
But neither does talking about potential eye or hair colour of a baby.
But families the world over still talk about it with excitement.
There's potentially two very different conversations here. And only Harry and AN Other know which one it was (or potentially where in the scale between the two is). Harry seemed to be suggesting the former, which is DEFINITELY racist.
'if you marry her we are concerned that any children you have will not be white'
'we can't wait to meet the baby and we wonder if his skin will be fair or dark, not that it matters either way to us'
Completely agree ks.
I think some people are struggling to differentiate the two types of conversation here.
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Good post MM...
However, is there a slight irony that Harry was once pictured dressed as a Nazi for a fancy dress party....... and I recall he also was filmed calling a fellow cadet a 'raghead' during his time in service. OK, he was young and I have no doubt that didn't mean to offend.... but shouldn't we judge all folk the same...?
To add - he also (reportedly) called an Asian army colleague (on film) a "Paki" back in his military days..... is that worse that what is purported to have been done?
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
As a parent to one mixed race child with another on the way, I can safely say that if a white person expressed concern my child would be born too black, that would be extremely f**king racist and I'd make sure they knew about it!
Apologies MM if you felt offended, it wasn’t my intention, for that, I was putting forward an argument of how a discussion MAY have gone, and how that discussion MAY have been interpreted, it is pure speculation.I am not, never have been and never will be a racist, but that doesn’t stop me thinking that sometimes the racist card is dished out too often to score a point
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It seems to me that the jury is still out on this. In this case, the Jurors are us. Unfortunately, we are supposed to be impartial and shouldn't know any of the witnesses or the defendants. If we weren't impartial or knew any witnesses or defendants, we would be removed from the panel.
It's clear that some of us are far from impartial, and they have made their minds up on judgement of it because they want it to be true more then they believe it to be.
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
As a parent to one mixed race child with another on the way, I can safely say that if a white person expressed concern my child would be born too black, that would be extremely f**king racist and I'd make sure they knew about it!
Apologies MM if you felt offended, it wasn’t my intention, for that, I was putting forward an argument of how a discussion MAY have gone, and how that discussion MAY have been interpreted, it is pure speculation.I am not, never have been and never will be a racist, but that doesn’t stop me thinking that sometimes the racist card is dished out too often to score a point
Correct.
There are many of us who believe that treating everyone equal completely exonerates us from being racist. Unfortunately, it doesn't. An example is the Danny Baker case. The picture he used of Harry, Meghan and the baby as a monkey was supposed to portray them as circus animals in posh clothes. Baker said he didn't even realise Meghan was Black when he used the picture, and would have used one of Boris Johnson's, or even his own kid if he'd known.
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MM,
Has Megan undoubtedly received poor treatment motivated by racism? I think there is still room for some doubt about that. In the press at least I think the question isn't only, is it because I is black? But also questions like is it because I is up-staging the future queen? Is it because we have had a royal falling out?
In the past yes, the British press have behaved abominably but in this case I'm still struggling to see real racism. Certainly not obvious racism, they are having to dig around comparing one article to unrelated article published months ago and there are other possible explanations. Said a member of the royal staff... No newspapers are going to be prosecuted for racist treatment of Megan here.
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BB
I'm all for treating people equally. But in this very thread, you have clear and unambiguous examples of the media not treating two similar women equally. Do you have any thoughts on that?
(PS: The Danny Baker situation was disgraceful. Never in a million years should he have been sacked for that.)
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What two women?
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It didn't stop Orpah from using the Danny Baker story and a couple of headlines including the word Chimp up on screen to reinforce allegations that the British Press are racist though did it, BST?
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RD.
Racial prejudice doesn't usually manifest itself as someone screaming "I'm going to have an unfair pop at you because you are black."
It usually manifests itself as someone having an unfair pop at someone who happens to be black, in a "I'm not racist!" deniable context.
I understand that, and admittedly only recently.
However, how do you prove it?
I dare say the person being racist, isn't even aware they are.
Also opens up any ethnic person to play the race card when they are legitimately
Criticised for doing something wrong.
How do you stop that?
This thing with Megan, has nothing to do with her race, despite her trying to make it so, I feel.
Conversations take place in every family of an unborn baby about how the baby will look, one aspect might well have been taken well out of context to suggest it’s racist, here are the sort of things everyday family’s would speculate about
Will the baby have ginger hair like it’s dad or darker hair like it’s mum?
Will the baby have fair skin like his dad or darker skin like his mum?
Will the baby be tall like his dad or shorter like his mum?
The list goes on and on, and no different to conversation in normal family’s, in my opinion they have played the race card massively, and due to the BLM stuff in America the Americans have bought it lock stock and barrel and Ophera has mad a few quid as well
As a parent to one mixed race child with another on the way, I can safely say that if a white person expressed concern my child would be born too black, that would be extremely f**king racist and I'd make sure they knew about it!
Apologies MM if you felt offended, it wasn’t my intention, for that, I was putting forward an argument of how a discussion MAY have gone, and how that discussion MAY have been interpreted, it is pure speculation.I am not, never have been and never will be a racist, but that doesn’t stop me thinking that sometimes the racist card is dished out too often to score a point
No problem Filo. It wasn't my intention to call you racist, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. I just think "the race card" is itself a card that's all too often used to shut down people's concerns. It stops people having to take responsibility for something they've said, and it gets tiring for me, someone who doesn't actually have to deal with it directly. I can only imagine how exhausting it is to keep raising the same issues time after time and get told you're just playing the race card, or "well actually it might not have been racism because..."
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It is very strange finding ourselves debating whether one side of the royal family or other is being mistreated or not when normally the argument is much more simple.
Is it an outdated institution we could welk do without? This whole forago suggests it is.
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It didn't stop Orpah from using the Danny Baker story and a couple of headlines including the word Chimp up on screen to reinforce allegations that the British Press are racist though did it, BST?
I don't know RD, I haven't seen it. If she did, that is utterly disgraceful.
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What two women?
Markle and Middleton.
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It is very strange finding ourselves debating whether one side of the royal family or other is being mistreated or not when normally the argument is much more simple.
Is it an outdated institution we could welk do without? This whole forago suggests it is.
This I can agree with.
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It is very strange finding ourselves debating whether one side of the royal family or other is being mistreated or not when normally the argument is much more simple.
Is it an outdated institution we could welk do without? This whole forago suggests it is.
In some senses, I couldn't agree more RD. I am not in the slightest concerned about the Royal Family. For me, the issue here is more about the standards of rags like the Mail, Express and Sun.
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It is very strange finding ourselves debating whether one side of the royal family or other is being mistreated or not when normally the argument is much more simple.
Is it an outdated institution we could welk do without? This whole forago suggests it is.
Many think it is an outdated institution we could well do without and will insist on this accusation of racism being true in order to strengthen that opinion.
Very, very sad, but true.
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What two women?
Markle and Middleton.
Middleton doesn't complain about the press, the Royal family and the public being racist! Markle does!
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It is very strange finding ourselves debating whether one side of the royal family or other is being mistreated or not when normally the argument is much more simple.
Is it an outdated institution we could welk do without? This whole forago suggests it is.
In some senses, I couldn't agree more RD. I am not in the slightest concerned about the Royal Family. For me, the issue here is more about the standards of rags like the Mail, Express and Sun.
Im personally a proud royalist. But I completely agree with what you say about the press.
I think you can add the daily mirror to that list regarding the topless pictures of Kate.
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What two women?
Markle and Middleton.
Middleton doesn't complain about the press, the Royal family and the public being racist! Markle does!
Which came first?
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Take away the colour of Markle’s skin, and I see a devious, calculated fame seeking, money orientated, selfish narcissist of a woman. With the colour of her skin, she is all those things with an unbeatable hand to play because that kind of hand can’t be matched.
People like her do more damage to racial equality than good.
Not that she’d give a shit about that.
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You may well be right Belton. But we are back to the same question. How do you form that opinion, other than through the prism of how she is presented in the media?
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The same way you form yours, I expect.
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I don't have an opinion on her.
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Why not? Because you don’t know her personally?
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It is very strange finding ourselves debating whether one side of the royal family or other is being mistreated or not when normally the argument is much more simple.
Is it an outdated institution we could welk do without? This whole forago suggests it is.
In some senses, I couldn't agree more RD. I am not in the slightest concerned about the Royal Family. For me, the issue here is more about the standards of rags like the Mail, Express and Sun.
I see that but wonder if your dislike of those papers and their proprietors is colouring your judgement on this.
Ultimately what they are after is free security and a Royal title. They are using the allegation of racism to beat the royal family and their friendly press with to apply pressure. I'm not so sure it's justified.
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You may well be right Belton. But we are back to the same question. How do you form that opinion, other than through the prism of how she is presented in the media?
And in terms of ‘prisms of how she is presented in the media’ I assume you mean media that presents her as a race card playing, narcissistic etc etc woman, such as the mail/express/sun/mirror (I don’t know because I do not read these newspapers). I form my opinion by listening to what she has to say (through formats that are usually there to promote her views and perception) and I, quite frankly, don’t believe it.
I once thought she was the best thing that has happened for the Royal family, as it happens. She fooled me, too.
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This is why progress is so slow, unfortunately. A woman claims she's been subject to a campaign of racism from the press, and received no support from her family. The two issues combine to until she becomes suicidal. Now, I don't care about the royals, but when someone shares issues like this, and people of colour across the country call it out as racism because they can see parallels with their own lives and experiences, it's worth listening to them. But there's always a core of people who'll make excuses - "well, they weren't throwing bananas at her like a 70s football match, so you can't PROVE it's racism! You're just playing the race card! We don't know what really happened! I as a white man don't see the problem!" That's the attitude that allows racism to thrive, unfortunately - treating allegations of racism as worse than racism itself. Give the white people the benefit of the doubt, while the black woman gets none. Even when she claims to be suicidal - but hey, she was probably just lying, right?
The press coverage around her is unquestionably racist. That is not up for debate. Not just in terms of headlines - although there are plenty of them, "straight outta Compton", references to "tainting" the bloodline, references to Harry joining "the Dark Side" - but also the overall coverage. The tone of it is unmistakable and dogwhistly, as is the case for many public black figures. Constantly painting her as angry, uppity, a chip on her shoulder, everything she asks for is unreasonable. Maybe it is, and maybe she really is all those things, but the issue is that when Kate asks for the same thing it results in very different headlines. And, of course, there's just enough plausible deniability to clutch your pearls and act shocked when you get called out on it.
Meanwhile, Wills gets to shag about and nothing gets said. Old Andrew gets to live out a quiet life. Maybe if Meghan really wanted peace and quiet she should start noncing kids.
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How do you define press coverage, Macho?
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The 2 main headline grabbing comments that everyone is talking about alleged racism and mental health/suicide both unanswerable by The Firm without causing more furore.
My expectation of the comment from the Palace when it comes is along the lines of we are disappointed about the comments made by HnM.
That is it no more.
On a seperate point were the questions given to HnM given in advance so they coild prepare their theatrical performance beforehand? As for the clip I have regretfully seen of the baby colour it was all very clearly staged, the pauses the fluttering eyelashes the long pause after the camera panned to Oprah before the WHAT?! Of shock and indignation.
As for the comment about Archie not getting a title this was instigated back in the time of George V, however when Charles becomes King their children will both be given titles as a matter of course
H complaing that his income had been cut off, if you decided not to do your job would you expect to be paid?
Charlrs not taking his calls, rewind several months and it was reported that H was talking via e mails to his father regarding them stepping back but Charles declared that it was not something to be discussed by e mail and needed discussing face to face.
There are so many conflucting points one says they were married 3 days before the eedding the other says it was just an exchange of vows, one says the colour of the child was discussex when M was pregnant the other says it was before mmmmm!
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MM,
You might have to explain why the Straight Outta Compton story is so unforgivably racist.
The Mail ran a story about MMs family background, and it happens that her mother comes from a very tough area of LA. It is a story of public interest.
Now the headline might be constrewed as inappropriate but for most people in the UK, the only thing they know about Compton is its reputation as a gangland neighbourhood and they might have heard of NWA.
I suppose the Mail could have put a more positive spin on it and wrote it up as a fairytale rags to riches story. As it is they just reported the facts. Is that so racist?
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You may well be right Belton. But we are back to the same question. How do you form that opinion, other than through the prism of how she is presented in the media?
And in terms of ‘prisms of how she is presented in the media’ I assume you mean media that presents her as a race card playing, narcissistic etc etc woman, such as the mail/express/sun/mirror (I don’t know because I do not read these newspapers). I form my opinion by listening to what she has to say (through formats that are usually there to promote her views and perception) and I, quite frankly, don’t believe it.
I once thought she was the best thing that has happened for the Royal family, as it happens. She fooled me, too.
Belton
I don't have any opinion on Markle because a) I'm not massively interested in celebrity culture and b) I'm even less interested in the Royal Family. So I've never bothered to learn much about her other than what I've picked up by osmosis because she is often in the news.
I do have an interest in how certain parts of the media f**k with people's heads and that is why I have a mild interest in this story.
If you look at the examples that MM gave yesterday, it is very clear that the media present Markle in a very different way to how they present Middleton. One very similar topics, they consistently present Middleton positively and Markle negatively.
My point was that if the information that shapes your opinion on the sort of person Markle is comes from the media, there ought at the very least to be minor alarm bells ringing on whether a media that behaves like ours does (as set out in the previous paragraph) can be trusted to give a balanced picture.
That's all I was saying. Now you've told me that you form your opinion by listening directly to what she says and you don't believe it, the issue is irrelevant. Except to say that it does take some effort of will to be oblivious to the constant stream of negative media coverage of Markle, which even I who don't give much of a shit about celebrity culture or the Royal Family pick up on.
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MM,
You might have to explain why the Straight Outta Compton story is so unforgivably racist.
The Mail ran a story about MMs family background, and it happens that her mother comes from a very tough area of LA. It is a story of public interest.
Now the headline might be constrewed as inappropriate but for most people in the UK, the only thing they know about Compton is its reputation as a gangland neighbourhood and they might have heard of NWA.
I suppose the Mail could have put a more positive spin on it and wrote it up as a fairytale rags to riches story. As it is they just reported the facts. Is that so racist?
RD:
How about Rachel Johnson (the PM's sister) writing in the Mail several years ago that if they married and had kids, Markle would add "some exotic DNA" to the royal blood? Then noting in the following sentence that Markle's mother was African American.
For the record, Johnson (Rachel) insisted that there were no racial overtones to her comment. In which case, let's say that for an experienced and prominent journalist, it was perhaps a little thoughtless.
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BST,
It's not a surprise that Rachel Johnson is casually racist, like her brother.
I'm not armed with a list of links links to back things up but I'm sure there were occasional stories of Kate being a commoner, her family being coal miners and snide remarks about her parents Mail order business in the press before she was married.
I'm not saying there isn't occasionally questionable stuff being published. I am saying I don't think there is an orchestrated racist campaign being waged against Megan by the press. And if you look at a lot of the negative reporting, like the flower girl thing, it's being fed by Royal flunkies.
There is a lot of negative criticism but it isn't racist in nature and it appears to be coming from the Royal PR people. What's that all about? Racism or a family rift? The papers and columnists know which side their bread is buttered and it's with the Royal family.
And then look at the grievances about money and titles. That's what this is all about.
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For what it's worth I agree with you RD. I think there IS some racism but that's not core to the issue. It's the gutter press doing what the gutter press does. They've got a line that earns them money and they are playing it for all it's worth.
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MM,
You might have to explain why the Straight Outta Compton story is so unforgivably racist.
The Mail ran a story about MMs family background, and it happens that her mother comes from a very tough area of LA. It is a story of public interest.
Now the headline might be constrewed as inappropriate but for most people in the UK, the only thing they know about Compton is its reputation as a gangland neighbourhood and they might have heard of NWA.
I suppose the Mail could have put a more positive spin on it and wrote it up as a fairytale rags to riches story. As it is they just reported the facts. Is that so racist?
On its own you could argue that. Although the press coverage of wider race issues in neighborhoods like that is also not good. As part of a broader picture, though - and I've given many, many examples now - it's pretty clear what the implication is. Painting a picture of her as uppity, above her station, someone who doesn't belong.
If the Compton story were on its own - and it wasn't part of a broader media picture not just surrounding MM, but minorities in general - nobody would care. But when you have papers comparing refugees to cockroaches, alarmist headlines about "ethnic numbers", referring to migrants as an invading force, recycling racist propaganda from the 50s to paint BLM as nothing but Marxist thugs... I could go on and on. At some point you have to step back and realise these aren't just individual little accidents, they're part of a very deliberate big picture and a clear pattern of behaviour. The press, particularly the tabloid press, is diseased, and they're passing that sickness on to us all because they know it sells.
I keep saying this isn't just about one woman, but what that woman represents to the racist British media. And their attitude to her reflects their attitude towards all people of colour - especially the ones who aren't lucky enough to be married to a prince.
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Billy. I’m not oblivious to it, but I am also able to to read the headline ‘chimp’ with a picture of a person of colour (or whatever it was - I really have no idea) without thinking, consciously or sub-consciously, maybe there’s something in this.
The only ‘media’ coverage I’ve seen are ones that seem to actively promote her personal ‘plight’ ie BBC news. The whole Whinfrey interview has been a massive part of media coverage.
Markle needs the media. She thrives on the media. Even the gutter ones.
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On reflection, she might have made the right move in going to live in America to get away from all the racism and media coverage. Hopefully, she can live the rest of her life out of the limelight.
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For what it's worth I agree with you RD. I think there IS some racism but that's not core to the issue. It's the gutter press doing what the gutter press does. They've got a line that earns them money and they are playing it for all it's worth.
The irony is the gutter press will actually be loving all this. It's manna from heaven for them.
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On reflection, she might have made the right move in going to live in America to get away from all the racism and media coverage. Hopefully, she can live the rest of her life out of the limelight.
Obviously the place to go to get away from the limelight is California. The global hub of the entertainment, media and digital communication industries...
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I wonder if they know?
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MM,
You might have to explain why the Straight Outta Compton story is so unforgivably racist.
The Mail ran a story about MMs family background, and it happens that her mother comes from a very tough area of LA. It is a story of public interest.
Now the headline might be constrewed as inappropriate but for most people in the UK, the only thing they know about Compton is its reputation as a gangland neighbourhood and they might have heard of NWA.
I suppose the Mail could have put a more positive spin on it and wrote it up as a fairytale rags to riches story. As it is they just reported the facts. Is that so racist?
On its own you could argue that. Although the press coverage of wider race issues in neighborhoods like that is also not good. As part of a broader picture, though - and I've given many, many examples now - it's pretty clear what the implication is. Painting a picture of her as uppity, above her station, someone who doesn't belong.
If the Compton story were on its own - and it wasn't part of a broader media picture not just surrounding MM, but minorities in general - nobody would care. But when you have papers comparing refugees to cockroaches, alarmist headlines about "ethnic numbers", referring to migrants as an invading force, recycling racist propaganda from the 50s to paint BLM as nothing but Marxist thugs... I could go on and on. At some point you have to step back and realise these aren't just individual little accidents, they're part of a very deliberate big picture and a clear pattern of behaviour. The press, particularly the tabloid press, is diseased, and they're passing that sickness on to us all because they know it sells.
I keep saying this isn't just about one woman, but what that woman represents to the racist British media. And their attitude to her reflects their attitude towards all people of colour - especially the ones who aren't lucky enough to be married to a prince.
If you're going to widen this out and suggest the right wing press pander to the worst side of British public opinion and regularly publish questionable, dog whistle stuff then I won't disagree. As you say it sells and it pushes some towards voting Tory.
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Our lass suggested we need a getaway holiday as soon as we can if only to have a break from my lockdown gambling habit.
She's just given me a Las Vegas brochure to look at.
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Meets Harry
Sleeps with Harry
Marrys Harry
Has children with Harry
Divorces Harry
Not a bad career move for a very average actress
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Meets Harry
Sleeps with Harry
Marrys Harry
Has children with Harry
Divorces Harry
Not a bad career move for a very average actress
Not so sure about an average actress, she was very convincing to some in that interview.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_j35t3GCsk
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I’ve just heard a news headline, though missed the detail, that Markle has made an an official complaint about Piers Morgan.
So this couple who moved to America to escape the press, engineer a global ‘interview’. Piers Morgan on British breakfast television says he doesn’t believe her, so she makes an ‘official’ complaint, whatever that means. Just what is it exactly she is desperate to escape from?
And, for the record, I despise Piers Morgan.
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Meets Harry
Sleeps with Harry
Marrys Harry
Has children with Harry
Divorces Harry
Not a bad career move for a very average actress
I've been thinking of trying the same move with Ann Widdicombe.
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Meets Harry
Sleeps with Harry
Marrys Harry
Has children with Harry
Divorces Harry
Not a bad career move for a very average actress
I've been thinking of trying the same move with Ann Widdicombe.
You've no chance mate, Farage parks in her garage these days.
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Ah, whinge and ginge. Not one mention of markles own family in the interview. I wonder why. This woman has spent her adult life cutting out those that don’t sing to her tune.Be careful what you wish for Harry. You’re next.
Oh, and while I’m on the subject of Harry, get your facts right mate, before you lie about never had been taking out on a bike by your own father. Social media is flooded with pics of you at Sandringham on the back of Charlie’s bike when you were a lad.
As a fellow veteran mate, I’m really disappointed in you. You have succumbed to the worst of American traits. Blame culture.