Viking Supporters Co-operative

Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: mushRTID on June 28, 2021, 05:50:36 pm

Title: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: mushRTID on June 28, 2021, 05:50:36 pm
First day of training and he posts this...has he been told he’s not in Wellens plans?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: drfchound on June 28, 2021, 05:57:45 pm
Possibly Mush but he could also have been referring to Moore.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Alan Southstand on June 28, 2021, 05:59:49 pm
Not having that, hound, he could have posted that weeks ago, if it was about DM.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: drfchound on June 28, 2021, 06:00:54 pm
It was just a thought Alan.
What do you think he might have been referring to.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on June 28, 2021, 06:10:18 pm
Seems obvious to me. First day back among the lads after a searingly brutal experience as their manager.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on June 28, 2021, 06:11:28 pm
He's gone even further up in my estimation, quoting Cicero. He'd be my no 1 guest for a historical dinner party.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Alan Southstand on June 28, 2021, 06:11:58 pm
I don’t know what he’s referring to, it’s very cryptic, but the timing is of it is quite interesting!
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: mushRTID on June 28, 2021, 06:26:31 pm
Can’t remember which thread but I think last week, somebody guessed Butler as the contracted player who might possibly be leaving.

Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: jamesrover17 on June 28, 2021, 06:26:40 pm
A lot of speculation on Twitter that he wasn’t there today
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Cramby10 on June 28, 2021, 06:39:17 pm
Oh dear. This doesn’t look good. I would suggest that the new manager doesn’t want him and that he’s refusing to leave. A real sad situation if it proves to be true. Love Butty but also back Richie in his role as our manager. Could get messy and we really don’t want that.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: anton123 on June 28, 2021, 06:46:43 pm
It’s down to butts to get his head down and play not steer things up for richy so can’t see it been aimed at the manager
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on June 28, 2021, 07:10:33 pm
Such a shame Wellens can't be a grown up about it and put anything in the past between the two and Butler being our previous manager behind him. Butler's experience in the changing room would be brilliant.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Filo on June 28, 2021, 07:15:25 pm
Such a shame Wellens can't be a grown up about it and put anything in the past between the two and Butler being our previous manager behind him. Butler's experience in the changing room would be brilliant.

Either you know something no one else does, or you are making a massive assumption
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: pib on June 28, 2021, 07:16:02 pm
Such a shame Wellens can't be a grown up about it and put anything in the past between the two and Butler being our previous manager behind him. Butler's experience in the changing room would be brilliant.

We don't know that do we tbf? Wellens has good reasons for wanting AB to focus on playing rather than coaching, and if they can't come to an agreement on that that's not necessarily RW's fault.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on June 28, 2021, 07:17:49 pm
Such a shame Wellens can't be a grown up about it and put anything in the past between the two and Butler being our previous manager behind him. Butler's experience in the changing room would be brilliant.

Either you know something no one else does, or you are making a massive assumption

Everyone's making their own assumptions about it. This is just my take...
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Filo on June 28, 2021, 07:20:10 pm
Such a shame Wellens can't be a grown up about it and put anything in the past between the two and Butler being our previous manager behind him. Butler's experience in the changing room would be brilliant.

Either you know something no one else does, or you are making a massive assumption

Everyone's making their own assumptions about it. This is just my take...

Everyone?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on June 28, 2021, 07:20:25 pm
Such a shame Wellens can't be a grown up about it and put anything in the past between the two and Butler being our previous manager behind him. Butler's experience in the changing room would be brilliant.

We don't know that do we tbf? Wellens has good reasons for wanting AB to focus on playing rather than coaching, and if they can't come to an agreement on that that's not necessarily RW's fault.

Hopefully it is purely for playing reasons or Butler wanting to carry on coaching, but if it's Wellens using previous disputes between them then it shows he is still as childish as before. Hopefully both of them can move on from any previous disputes.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: steve@dcfd on June 28, 2021, 07:25:28 pm
Donny hopefully you can move on from assumptions that not proven and your dislike that comes across of RW.
 
If the quote is aimed at his situation it seems a very unprofessional thing to do.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on June 28, 2021, 07:29:05 pm
Donny hopefully you can move on from assumptions that not proven and your dislike that comes across of RW.
 
If the quote is aimed at his situation it seems a very unprofessional thing to do.

I don't have a dislike of RW... I was for him being appointed since the end of the season...
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: steve@dcfd on June 28, 2021, 07:33:09 pm
Quote
 but if it's Wellens using previous disputes between them then it shows he is still as childish as before.

You may want to reword this if you have nothing against the manager
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: roversdude on June 28, 2021, 07:38:33 pm
I read it completely differently and that it made reference to being manager and now ‘just’ a player
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on June 28, 2021, 07:40:52 pm
Quote
 but if it's Wellens using previous disputes between them then it shows he is still as childish as before.

You may want to reword this if you have nothing against the manager

I can believe a man has flaws to his personality but believe he's a good appointment for our team, in comparison with other names mentioned, as well as bringing a decent style of football with him.

Sorry, should I see the world through rose-tinted glasses?

Let's move on from my opinions and assumptions on this matter...
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: RugbyRover on June 28, 2021, 07:48:00 pm
here's an idea, how about one of you lads on Twitter ask AB what the fcuk he's going on about.

Tell him to stop with all this Cantona rubbish.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: i_ateallthepies on June 28, 2021, 07:49:18 pm
He's gone even further up in my estimation, quoting Cicero. He'd be my no 1 guest for a historical dinner party.

Me too, BST.  Read the Cicero trilogy by Robert Harris last year.  OK, fact based fiction but paints the picture of what a tremendous character he was.  Fantastic storytelling by Harris.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: MachoMadness on June 28, 2021, 08:05:29 pm
I think it's entirely possible we're reading too much into what is a fairly all-purpose motivational meme, no?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: anton123 on June 28, 2021, 08:07:32 pm
I don’t see it as richy been childish , as he’s in a very unusual position where u take over as manager and the previous manager is still there !
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: mushRTID on June 28, 2021, 08:10:36 pm
I think it's entirely possible we're reading too much into what is a fairly all-purpose motivational meme, no?

No, I don’t think it’s possible we’re reading too much into it.

If there’s nothing in it then it’s an extremely disruptive thing of AB to post on the day we return to training. It was always going to attract speculation like this.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Redandwhite on June 28, 2021, 08:21:18 pm
Such a shame Wellens can't be a grown up about it and put anything in the past between the two and Butler being our previous manager behind him. Butler's experience in the changing room would be brilliant.

Eh?

I'd say it's butler not being the grown up, if he's spat the dummy out over Ritchie saying to concentrate on playing .
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: redwine on June 28, 2021, 08:21:26 pm
Cicero, wasn't he left midfield in that 1982 Brazil team?

 :(
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Redandwhite on June 28, 2021, 08:24:03 pm
I don’t see it as richy been childish , as he’s in a very unusual position where u take over as manager and the previous manager is still there !
Exactly, if anyone is being mardy it's butler
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: i_ateallthepies on June 28, 2021, 08:24:51 pm
If it was Butts' intention to stick the boot into the new manager then it's thoroughly bad form.  I hope that wasn't his meaning but if it was then there surely is no place for him to remain at the club.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Redandwhite on June 28, 2021, 08:26:33 pm
I think it's entirely possible we're reading too much into what is a fairly all-purpose motivational meme, no?

No, I don’t think it’s possible we’re reading too much into it.

If there’s nothing in it then it’s an extremely disruptive thing of AB to post on the day we return to training. It was always going to attract speculation like this.

100% .

Completely unprofessional from butler, stirring things up on the first day of training. 

Time to cancel his contract
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Filo on June 28, 2021, 08:28:37 pm
Too many assumptions from both sides, it might be totally innocent
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: vaya on June 28, 2021, 08:29:04 pm
I think it's entirely possible we're reading too much into what is a fairly all-purpose motivational meme, no?

No, I don’t think it’s possible we’re reading too much into it.

If there’s nothing in it then it’s an extremely disruptive thing of AB to post on the day we return to training. It was always going to attract speculation like this.

100% .

Completely unprofessional from butler, stirring things up on the first day of training. 

Time to cancel his contract

"Gone fishin' doo-bee-doo-bee"
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: drfchound on June 28, 2021, 08:32:42 pm
I don’t see it as richy been childish , as he’s in a very unusual position where u take over as manager and the previous manager is still there !
Exactly, if anyone is being mardy it's butler





Well,is he.
We have no idea what Butts is really getting at.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: NickDRFC on June 28, 2021, 08:33:42 pm
Just to pour a bit more fuel on the speculation fire here, his bio simply says “1st Team Manager of @donnybelles”.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on June 28, 2021, 08:34:14 pm
Too many assumptions from both sides, it might be totally innocent

Interesting timing though.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: anton123 on June 28, 2021, 09:03:36 pm
Butts has been a great servant to the club but come on at his age he is only gonna be back up thus year , should be no where near the first team , couldn’t get in to a struggling league two team two years ago
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: jmt23 on June 28, 2021, 09:13:03 pm
Only AB will know why he has put that up, and the fact it, and so many social media messages can be read/misread in so many ways is why it should be closed down. Nothing is any better for it.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: CoppsChop on June 28, 2021, 09:15:23 pm
I think it's entirely possible we're reading too much into what is a fairly all-purpose motivational meme, no?

No, I don’t think it’s possible we’re reading too much into it.

If there’s nothing in it then it’s an extremely disruptive thing of AB to post on the day we return to training. It was always going to attract speculation like this.

100% .

Completely unprofessional from butler, stirring things up on the first day of training. 

Time to cancel his contract

Sacking someone for posting a motivational quote seems a bit extreme, does it not?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: selby on June 28, 2021, 09:22:58 pm
  It could also read that he had a bad time last season as manager, but is ready to redeem his reputation, and show how determined he is to do so.
  Whatever it means it is a storm in a tea cup either way, he either stays knuckles down and does the business, or he lets last years experience get the better of him, which I hope is not the case, as I feel he would still be an asset to the team and the club in general.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: GazLaz on June 28, 2021, 09:23:29 pm
The mans 40 years old, he wants to grow up a bit. Likely to be harmless but unnecessary.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: drfchound on June 28, 2021, 09:25:30 pm
Is he talking about Matt Hancock.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Arsenal Of The North on June 28, 2021, 09:26:11 pm
I haven’t seen any footage of bostock, bogle or butts from today, I’m sure there may be others missing too. My take would be he’s told butts it’s first team football only. He might not want to park the belles on the side? Bostock I would guess he’s told he’s free to either get stuck in or find a new club.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on June 28, 2021, 09:29:14 pm
I haven’t seen any footage of bostock, bogle or butts from today, I’m sure there may be others missing too. My take would be he’s told butts it’s first team football only. He might not want to park the belles on the side? Bostock I would guess he’s told he’s free to either get stuck in or find a new club.

Bostock and Bogle are in the video the club's Twitter account posted.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Arsenal Of The North on June 28, 2021, 09:40:39 pm
I haven’t seen any footage of bostock, bogle or butts from today, I’m sure there may be others missing too. My take would be he’s told butts it’s first team football only. He might not want to park the belles on the side? Bostock I would guess he’s told he’s free to either get stuck in or find a new club.

Bostock and Bogle are in the video the club's Twitter account posted.

I withdraw my original statement!
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: jamesrover17 on June 28, 2021, 09:43:22 pm
Yeah Bozzy was there, I am that sad I was looking through the video for him!
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: PDX_Rover on June 28, 2021, 09:44:58 pm
I read it completely differently and that it made reference to being manager and now ‘just’ a player

This
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: steve@dcfd on June 28, 2021, 09:55:42 pm
Bostock and Bogle were both there in training as I saw it.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: knockers on June 28, 2021, 10:38:20 pm
Butler often puts quotes on his Twitter. Nothing to see here!
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Draytonian III on June 28, 2021, 11:12:46 pm
Nothing to do with this alleged Twitter thingy but somehow in the back my mind I can see Richie Wellens who’s my club manager upsetting more than enough players/people/supporters at the club. I will give him my full support and hope he does very well, but something doesn’t sit right with me and I’ve always been a half full sort of man
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Chris Black come back on June 28, 2021, 11:18:47 pm
Still have Butler, Bostock and Bogle on my watchlist for departures. For different reasons, can’t see them hanging around. For Butler, he has a tough choice as he can still perform at this level, but probably not next season after. If he can get a decent coaching job somewhere, you could see him leaving. The other two you just can’t see fitting in given what Wellens has said he wants.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: RoversAlias on June 28, 2021, 11:43:51 pm
Some extremely odd and presumptive things being said in this thread. Let's wait and see where things shake out for Butts and Wellens eh.

Wellens did mention Butts when discussing the experienced players the new lads can learn from in an interview last week, which I took as a good sign. I'd be gutted if we drummed Butler out after all he's done for us...again. He deserves better.

Not that I'm saying we are doing or have done that to him by the way.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Redandwhite on June 29, 2021, 07:01:47 am
I don’t see it as richy been childish , as he’s in a very unusual position where u take over as manager and the previous manager is still there !
Exactly, if anyone is being mardy it's butler





Well,is he.
We have no idea what Butts is really getting at.
agree . IF anyone is being mardy .
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DRNaith on June 29, 2021, 08:18:19 am
I read it as him not deserting his post of CB, for the good of the team.

Not a great idea to post something so ambiguous though
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: essexrover on June 29, 2021, 08:32:27 am
Isnt he just saying " I've been through adversity (i.e the managerial experience last season), but I'm not deserting my post", meaning he's still here & ready to muck in. I see it as a positive post.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Metalmicky on June 29, 2021, 08:38:36 am
Isnt he just saying " I've been through adversity (i.e the managerial experience last season), but I'm not deserting my post", meaning he's still here & ready to muck in. I see it as a positive post.

Totally agree essexrover - some folk on here could work in government (or the media) they way the 'interpret`peoples posts on social media...
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DMnumber4 on June 29, 2021, 09:02:30 am
There's a few rushing in here to nail their colours to the mast one way or the other off the back of a social media post by a 37-year-old third tier centre half.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: roversdude on June 29, 2021, 09:08:22 am
Totally agree Essex
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: sha66y on June 29, 2021, 09:15:25 am
It’s disgraceful and quite pathetic ………that supposedly grown men with no clue about anything,  can not only make up their own conclusions over another persons statement but also come to a damning verdict!

Try reading what vitriol you write then look at how other people may perceive you ….I guarantee you one thing….you are not a nice person, you are a plague on society and utterly despicable as a human being…..

I read it as a clarion call !
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: mugnapper on June 29, 2021, 09:21:55 am
The most interesting thing I'm taking from this is Andy Butler must read motivational quotes whilst sat on the toilet.
I favour Viz myself.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: godlike1 on June 29, 2021, 09:30:31 am
The most interesting thing I'm taking from this is Andy Butler must read motivational quotes whilst sat on the toilet.
I favour Viz myself.

Exactly that. Mine is plumber's weekly. Ahem ;-)
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Campsall rover on June 29, 2021, 12:42:38 pm
I find it unbelievable so many people are drawing such negative conclusions about that tweet from Butts.

Seriously guy’s do you think Butts would have any inclination to cause any disruption at the club?

It’s a rallying call to the troops. That’s how i read it and that’s how i see Butts as a character and his love for DRFC his home town club.

Amazing how such an innocent tweet can cause such a response from so many of our supporters on this forum.
People being very mischievous, tying to create a story that simply isn’t there to be told imo.

Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DRCraig on June 29, 2021, 01:25:09 pm
Don't know what to make of that. Anyway. Forgetting it.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: keith79 on June 29, 2021, 01:31:05 pm
I just see it as "glad to be back. Let's go again"
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Avsuptem on June 29, 2021, 04:04:00 pm
The most interesting thing I'm taking from this is Andy Butler must read motivational quotes whilst sat on the toilet.
I favour Viz myself.

Exactly that. Mine is plumber's weekly. Ahem ;-)

You cannot beat The Pigeon Fanciers Gazette for inspiration.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: sedwardsdrfc on June 29, 2021, 10:18:15 pm
Anyone posting quotes on social media like this is annoying imo and that's all i'm going to take from it.

Butlers clearly a good guy and might not be in Wellens plans but don't rule out him getting into the team and staying there. It happened last season.

With the Euros and Wellens appointment i almost forgot what a shambles the second half of last season was. The mention of Butler brings it all back. Hopefully he can play a few games again just so that's not how he becomes remembered
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on July 02, 2021, 12:33:38 pm
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/the-latest-on-andy-butlers-standing-at-doncaster-rovers-according-to-richie-wellens-3293989

Seems fair enough. Just has to force his way in. However, where is Cameron John in all of this? He says he has 3 centerbacks..?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: NickDRFC on July 02, 2021, 12:45:28 pm
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/the-latest-on-andy-butlers-standing-at-doncaster-rovers-according-to-richie-wellens-3293989

Seems fair enough. Just has to force his way in. However, where is Cameron John in all of this? He says he has 3 centerbacks..?

As a left back? On his way out?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: jm291 on July 02, 2021, 01:23:05 pm
Doesn't look good for CJ does it! At best he sounds like 4th choice CB or 2nd choice LB.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: IDM on July 02, 2021, 01:30:02 pm
He can play midfield too..

Aren’t we jumping to conclusions here.?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: DonnyOsmond on July 02, 2021, 01:57:26 pm
He can play midfield too..

Aren’t we jumping to conclusions here.?

He doesn't have the technical ability to play midfield.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: steve@dcfd on July 02, 2021, 02:00:43 pm
Did RW mean he has three CH’s Williams, Anderson and John and Butts is behind them. Was he including Butts in the three, if so what’s happening to Cameron John, he is training this week. Will he be used in a different position or is there another plan for him. One question is answered about Butts, who has not be training in the morning, but thrown up another about CJ.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Alan Southstand on July 02, 2021, 02:01:04 pm
If we don’t sign a LM, we might have to move TR further up the pitch and then we need CJ as a LB?
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: IDM on July 02, 2021, 02:08:58 pm
He can play midfield too..

Aren’t we jumping to conclusions here.?

He doesn't have the technical ability to play midfield.

Might have to agree to disagree.. I got the impression last season that CJ was used as a utility player including a more advanced role..
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: NickDRFC on July 02, 2021, 03:07:39 pm
He can play midfield too..

Aren’t we jumping to conclusions here.?

He doesn't have the technical ability to play midfield.

Might have to agree to disagree.. I got the impression last season that CJ was used as a utility player including a more advanced role..

I don’t recall seeing him play in midfield at all but a lot of people on here mooted him for a role there. Would have to agree with DO, unless he comes on leaps and bounds technically he wouldn’t be up to it in midfield.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: i_ateallthepies on July 02, 2021, 04:07:16 pm
Cameron John's passing is nowhere near good enough to play midfield.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: sedwardsdrfc on July 02, 2021, 04:47:23 pm
He scored a few goals mostly from set plays but never played further than left back and centre back. Seeing how uncomfortable on the ball he has been at left back last season any talk of playing further forward needs to stop.

He’s a centre half and we might as well get rid of Butler is ahead of him still.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: steve@dcfd on July 02, 2021, 05:11:23 pm
Reading the article again I believe the Three CHs RW is talking about are Anderson, Williams and John. Otherwise Butts would be involved in every game coming off the bench or playing. There wouldn’t be weeks were he was not involved I could be wrong with my assumption.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: RugbyRover on July 02, 2021, 09:00:58 pm
Reading the article again I believe the Three CHs RW is talking about are Anderson, Williams and John. Otherwise Butts would be involved in every game coming off the bench or playing. There wouldn’t be weeks were he was not involved I could be wrong with my assumption.

I think you're right. CJ will be the 3rd choice CB as it stands.

RW seems to have a lot of faith in his new man, Williams, but having seen CJ play at CB when he first arrived at the club, I'd say he has a good chance of making RW change his mind during pre-season.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: knockers on July 02, 2021, 09:45:14 pm
Butler tweeted his Strava ride yesterday.
Maybe he’s on his bike!
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Upton Rover on July 02, 2021, 10:01:01 pm
Upset of not been appointed of permanent manager
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: steve@dcfd on July 02, 2021, 10:32:54 pm
Butler tweeted his Strava ride yesterday.
Maybe he’s on his bike!
That was 40km and he’s done 100km today as he tweeted again today.
So he doing well to ride on his bike then going to training later, he’s not training with the others in the morning.
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: knockers on July 02, 2021, 11:01:53 pm
I was sort of trying to keep things light hearted :crying:
Title: Re: Andy Butler Tweet
Post by: Bentley Bullet on July 02, 2021, 11:24:39 pm
I got it, Knockers!