Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Ldr on July 11, 2021, 06:35:55 pm
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https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1414195735143370753?s=21
‘People harmful to the public interest’
Jesus that’s a slippery slope, who decides that
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https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1414195735143370753?s=21
‘People harmful to the public interest’
Jesus that’s a slippery slope, who decides that
The wokies who are so superior to the rest of us.
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https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1414195735143370753?s=21
‘People harmful to the public interest’
Jesus that’s a slippery slope, who decides that
Anti-vaxxers are harmful to the wider public interest.
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https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1414195735143370753?s=21
‘People harmful to the public interest’
Jesus that’s a slippery slope, who decides that
Anti-vaxxers are harmful to the wider public interest.
Why are they? People should be allowed their own opinions.
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https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1414195735143370753?s=21
‘People harmful to the public interest’
Jesus that’s a slippery slope, who decides that
Anti-vaxxers are harmful to the wider public interest.
Why are they? People should be allowed their own opinions. Anti Vaxers are dangerous, people should be allowed opinions of course, but not complete lies that puts people at risk of death
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https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1414195735143370753?s=21
‘People harmful to the public interest’
Jesus that’s a slippery slope, who decides that
Anti-vaxxers are harmful to the wider public interest.
Why are they? People should be allowed their own opinions.
They are. Antivaxxers and dangerous to the wider public health. It's an opinion.
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Starmer pruned hard by Sharon Graham;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/02/labours-main-union-backer-says-it-will-cut-political-funding
Rusty secateurs to the nads!
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She doesn't have any Albie
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“Descending into”?
He has always been like that.
The man is a first class prick.
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“Descending into”?
He has always been like that.
The man is a first class prick.
Why do you say that NR? what is the reason?
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Because he is Syd, the man is a Quisling, a puppet who was willing to undermine and try and overturn a democratic vote by the British electorate. A stabber in the back merchant not ever to be trusted.
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You really must remember to switch your brain on brian, first thing if possible.
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https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1414195735143370753?s=21
‘People harmful to the public interest’
Jesus that’s a slippery slope, who decides that
Anti-vaxxers are harmful to the wider public interest.
So is ignorant intolerance.
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“Descending into”?
He has always been like that.
The man is a first class prick.
Why do you say that NR? what is the reason?
He has limited political experience and it shows. A stiff public persona. He relies on a narrow circle of advisers and presides over messy party management. He shows disproportionate emphasis on voters in the so-called red wall, and fails to say clearly what he stands for. He is a big part of the reason why Labour underperform.
The Labour Party have much much deeper issues though. They have , essentially, in the last 20 years failed to renew themselves. They have failed to modernise.
And don’t think for one minute I believe the conservatives have it all good either. They are not without their failings. Top to bottom.
I made a point about KS. And I stand by it. I’m not interested in a right v left argument discussion either so don’t bother trying to stand up for all things Labour. I’m not interested.
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“Descending into”?
He has always been like that.
The man is a first class prick.
Why do you say that NR? what is the reason?
He has limited political experience and it shows. A stiff public persona. He relies on a narrow circle of advisers and presides over messy party management. He shows disproportionate emphasis on voters in the so-called red wall, and fails to say clearly what he stands for. He is a big part of the reason why Labour underperform.
The Labour Party have much much deeper issues though. They have , essentially, in the last 20 years failed to renew themselves. They have failed to modernise.
And don’t think for one minute I believe the conservatives have it all good either. They are not without their failings. Top to bottom.
I made a point about KS. And I stand by it. I’m not interested in a right v left argument discussion either so don’t bother trying to stand up for all things Labour. I’m not interested.
For a minute there I thought you were describing the PM
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Syd, it's Brian with a capital B
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Because he is Syd, the man is a Quisling, a puppet who was willing to undermine and try and overturn a democratic vote by the British electorate. A stabber in the back merchant not ever to be trusted.
Has no one told you Brexit has been done and you're supposed to be geting over it? Especially with it going so well. All you Remoaners banging on forever....
Plus extra irony alert about politicans that you trust!
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Worrying authoritarian language vs an exposition on Peppa Pig.
We get it all in our politics don't we!
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Because he is Syd, the man is a Quisling, a puppet who was willing to undermine and try and overturn a democratic vote by the British electorate. A stabber in the back merchant not ever to be trusted.
Has no one told you Brexit has been done and you're supposed to be geting over it? Especially with it going so well. All you Remoaners banging on forever....
Plus extra irony alert about politicans that you trust!
Me, I'll never vote Tory again because of the Gold Standard. And the Whigs can f**k right off over their position on the Corn Laws.
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Wilts , that is just what people like you want, to forget what a treacherous B*****d he is , and his treacherous hopo's like Lammy, Thornberry and Cooper you are not shouting about on here for the last week, What's up are you at last showing some shame you lot, there's three to send a shiver down everyones back if stabber thinks they are the answer.
They have turned into the biggest secret ever on here by his lordship and the disciples.
Hang your head in shame if you hang on to the shirt tails of that lot.
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
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“Descending into”?
He has always been like that.
The man is a first class prick.
Why do you say that NR? what is the reason?
He has limited political experience and it shows. A stiff public persona. He relies on a narrow circle of advisers and presides over messy party management. He shows disproportionate emphasis on voters in the so-called red wall, and fails to say clearly what he stands for. He is a big part of the reason why Labour underperform.
The Labour Party have much much deeper issues though. They have , essentially, in the last 20 years failed to renew themselves. They have failed to modernise.
And don’t think for one minute I believe the conservatives have it all good either. They are not without their failings. Top to bottom.
I made a point about KS. And I stand by it. I’m not interested in a right v left argument discussion either so don’t bother trying to stand up for all things Labour. I’m not interested.
''He has always been like that.
The man is a first class prick''
But why this, you sound like a very average tier three football supporter
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Because he is Syd, the man is a Quisling, a puppet who was willing to undermine and try and overturn a democratic vote by the British electorate. A stabber in the back merchant not ever to be trusted.
Has no one told you Brexit has been done and you're supposed to be geting over it? Especially with it going so well. All you Remoaners banging on forever....
Plus extra irony alert about politicans that you trust!
hmmm, let me think about that for a nanosecond .................. did he lie about brexit and put the lies on the side of a bus? did he lie about there being benefits from negotiating the worst deal possible, has he lied at all? Is he still lying about, well everything?
Has he been fired for lying? Has he broken the law? has he lied to the queen? hmmmm let me think about that for another nanosecond.
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Starmer is the classic acceptance of the society we operate in within the UK looking to carve his place at the top of politics within the system .
The only thing missing is to go running off to Murdoch claiming " you've nowt to fear from us " although that may come .
What is principle without power I often here .
Well I'll tell you what power is without principles it's to be a sycophant to neoliberalism that's what it is .
To put an arm around the " I'm alright Jack's " that is what it is and the status quo .
Without principles you are a worthless piece of shyte in my opinion every bit as much as Bunter is .
The centre of UK politics is cowards territory , they should swap their red rosettes for white feathers .
Corbyn was on the right path despite his many failings as a man historically and a leader .
Confront what is wrong with this country head on , for the many not the few .
Even the centre and right of the Labour Party plotted his demise which exactly tells you what they are .
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Syd, it's Brian with a capital B
and selby with a capital S I guess, but it's only a forum, good to see what's important in your life
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.
Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?
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Ironic, given the length of some of his posts.
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Syd, it's Brian with a capital B
Since when have you become concerned with using capital letters properly? That's new.
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.
Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?
Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.
Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?
Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?
Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .
The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .
Well done for becoming part of the problem .
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.
Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?
Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?
Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .
The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .
Well done for becoming part of the problem .
The problem blaming others for being part of the problem, don’t make me laugh, your thoughts and comments on this thread show that you’d rather see a far right Govt than a centre left Govt and that is fact going on what you post. You are a right winger posing as a left wing revolutionary!
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.
Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?
Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?
Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .
The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .
Well done for becoming part of the problem .
The problem blaming others for being part of the problem, don’t make me laugh, your thoughts and comments on this thread show that you’d rather see a far right Govt than a centre left Govt and that is fact going on what you post. You are a right winger posing as a left wing revolutionary!
Culturally to the right and economically to the left I'll give you that .
There's no law against that either as far as I can see .
I'll await the usual racist and bigot retorts which is the general hiding place of the standard Labour luvvies .
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The best thing the people of this country can do is get rid of the corrupt Labour Party and replace it with something that truly represents the working people of this country .
The party is nothing more than a party of choice for the metropolitan , liberal middle class voter .
It has absolutely no connection with the post industrial towns of this country anymore .
What is more galling is the fact it is unable to break out of its bubble and truly connect with the millions of voters it should be representing .
It is finished but in name only and I will make it my life's work to see that it bites the dust given that it is incapable of change .
I take it as read that this ensures the Tories will win but the Tories will win anyway with Labour under its guise so what's to lose ? .
My grandkids deserve better and I'll do my bit to ensure they get it .
tl:dr.
I'm happy for the Tories to be in power for the rest of my time on earth.
Any chance you can to play the ball instead of the man Billy ?
Any chance of you coming out and admitting you are a red wall Tory?
Well I'd have no problem if I was and the last time I checked the people of this country are entitled to vote anyway they see fit .
The sneers and the air of superiority from people such as yourself have gone a long way to ensure the Labour Party is practically finished in the former red wall .
Well done for becoming part of the problem .
The problem blaming others for being part of the problem, don’t make me laugh, your thoughts and comments on this thread show that you’d rather see a far right Govt than a centre left Govt and that is fact going on what you post. You are a right winger posing as a left wing revolutionary!
Culturally to the right and economically to the left I'll give you that .
There's no law against that either as far as I can see .
I'll await the usual racist and bigot retorts which is the general hiding place of the standard Labour luvvies .
That first sentence typifies your stance, you can’t have both, maybe a centrist Govt is the one for you, even after false ultra left leaning posts, you are a fraud
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Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.
People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.
Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.
The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.
And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).
That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.
[1] Nationalist culturally and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together.
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Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.
People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.
Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.
The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.
And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).
That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.
[1] Nationalist culturally and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together.
It's a hand you consistently over play Billy .
The facts are that 6 out of 10 Labour held constituencies voted to leave the EU as of 2016 .
Now when I was at school 60% wasn't considered a minority number although neither could it be considered a huge majority either .
Which leads me to believe that the 40% Labour remainer vote which was mainly the metropolitan , middle and liberal class vote spoke for us all apparently .
Is 60% a bigger majority or not Billy rather than 40% ? .
It seems to me that your particular tribe of the Labour Party don't speak for the majority at all but only inside your head .
So I would respectively suggest economically to the left and culturally to the right isn't the worst play to undertake .
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Tyke.
You just don't get it do you?
3 out of 4 Labour voters in 2017 had voted Remain the year before. That is broadly how people on the left now line up. 3/4s are socially progressive. 1/4 are socially reactionary.
The reason why 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave is NOT because most people on the Left are insular nationalists like you.
It's because a small number of left wing insular nationalists, like you, implicitly made a pact with the far bigger number of right wing insular nationalists.
In simple terms, yes 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave. But in very, very few if any of them did a majority of Labour voters vote Leave. That seems to be the bit you're struggling to deal with.
So the constituencies votedeave because you and the far right teamed up. You were just doing it implicitly then, because you had a beautiful dream of a Bennite Brexit, and were oblivious to the fact that you were actually voting for a far right Brexit.
But now you know. You know what the Johnson game is. What country he wants us to be. And still you are taking a stance that enables him. Which leaves me thinking that you are explicitly enabling him now. Because you are too smart not to realise what you have done and continue to do. So you certainly aren't enabling Johnson by accident. You're choosing to do so.
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Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.
People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.
Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.
The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.
And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).
That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.
[1] Nationalist culturally and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together.
It's a hand you consistently over play Billy .
The facts are that 6 out of 10 Labour held constituencies voted to leave the EU as of 2016 .
Now when I was at school 60% wasn't considered a minority number although neither could it be considered a huge majority either .
Which leads me to believe that the 40% Labour remainer vote which was mainly the metropolitan , middle and liberal class vote spoke for us all apparently .
Is 60% a bigger majority or not Billy rather than 40% ? .
It seems to me that your particular tribe of the Labour Party don't speak for the majority at all but only inside your head .
So I would respectively suggest economically to the left and culturally to the right isn't the worst play to undertake .
Thats what they thought in 1930’s Germany
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Tyke.
You just don't get it do you?
3 out of 4 Labour voters in 2017 had voted Remain the year before. That is broadly how people on the left now line up. 3/4s are socially progressive. 1/4 are socially reactionary.
The reason why 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave is NOT because most people on the Left are insular nationalists like you.
It's because a small number of left wing insular nationalists, like you, implicitly made a pact with the far bigger number of right wing insular nationalists.
In simple terms, yes 60% of Labour constituencies voted Leave. But in very, very few if any of them did a majority of Labour voters vote Leave. That seems to be the bit you're struggling to deal with.
So the constituencies votedeave because you and the far right teamed up. You were just doing it implicitly then, because you had a beautiful dream of a Bennite Brexit, and were oblivious to the fact that you were actually voting for a far right Brexit.
But now you know. You know what the Johnson game is. What country he wants us to be. And still you are taking a stance that enables him. Which leaves me thinking that you are explicitly enabling him now. Because you are too smart not to realise what you have done and continue to do. So you certainly aren't enabling Johnson by accident. You're choosing to do so.
You can pull whatever you want out of a hat that reconciles your view Billy but I prefer to stick to the harsh reality also known as facts .
The facts are that Labour lost voters in extremely massive numbers in solid areas that were previously a shoe in .
They lost those votes because the party no longer connects with those voters and hasn't done for two decades .
Losing the red wall is like the Tories losing Torbay or Bromley .
Have you any idea of the scale of the Labour problem in the post industrial towns ?
No you expect these areas to dance to the tune that was played over 13 years of government and a return to that particular flavour of Labour policy .
It ain't going to happen fella .
The former red wall couldn't give a feck about Starmer because he offers nowt that they haven't seen before .
The day a second referendum came from Labour was the day they died and dead is dead .
When 60% in Labour held seats vote to leave the EU you'd better believe they want that respected .
The proof is in the pudding , they voted Tory before tick the second referendum option .
Just exactly how much on the ground evidence do you need ?
60% of the former Labour vote was culturally to the right but Starmer and co ignored that particular fact .
And it is a fact but dress that up how you want for what good it will do you .
The Red wall didn't desert Labour rather more than Labour deserted them .
You people are so arrogant and up your own ass it's not true .
No they won't be signing up to Starmer because it's the same old same old .
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Tyke. I've tried for a long time to play the ball with you. It's impossible because you will not recognise the core fact.
People like you, socially nationalist, economically socialist [1] are a very small minority. Unless you realise that, you cannot understand the bigger picture.
Labour CANNOT win by pandering to you. Full stop. There aren't enough of you. And if Labour plays to your insular needs, it haemorages support among other sections of the Left. Like it did in Spring 2019 when Corbyn finally embraced Brexit and 4-5 million Labour supporters switched allegiance to the LDs and Greens.
The Left in the UK can only win if it is a big collective where people realise they cannot get everything they want. You never seem to get that. You rant about the ideal that you want. But a party that offered that would not get 15% in an election. You are being egotistically self indulgent in not recognising that.
And it's worse of course. Because the Tory party utterly bereft of any economic vision, realises that it's one and only chance of holding to power is to play on the prejudices of social conservatives. Which is basically what Brexit was only ever about. And you refusing to see that means you are prepared to condone it (it sometimes looks like you actively embrace it to be honest).
That's why I've given up trying to play the ba with you. You're not part of a left solution. You are part of the problem that enables this drift into right wing authoritarianism.
[1] Nationalist culturally and Socialist economically. I'm genuinely not saying this flippantly, but you might want to reflect on what you get when you out those two concepts together.
It's a hand you consistently over play Billy .
The facts are that 6 out of 10 Labour held constituencies voted to leave the EU as of 2016 .
Now when I was at school 60% wasn't considered a minority number although neither could it be considered a huge majority either .
Which leads me to believe that the 40% Labour remainer vote which was mainly the metropolitan , middle and liberal class vote spoke for us all apparently .
Is 60% a bigger majority or not Billy rather than 40% ? .
It seems to me that your particular tribe of the Labour Party don't speak for the majority at all but only inside your head .
So I would respectively suggest economically to the left and culturally to the right isn't the worst play to undertake .
Thats what they thought in 1930’s Germany
A bit flawed given it's the UK and not 1933 .
The truth is the country isn't voting the way you'd like .
Hmmm because you are the minority .
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Economically to the left and culturally to the right - that is literally Kier Starmer's Labour Party!
Despite the press headlines and spin, the Johnson government is economically to the right (this taxpayers money that is supposed to have gone to 'the regions' has actually gone/going to tax doding multi-nationals' and socially to the far-right.
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Tyke.
Stop ranting. Read what I said.
You are making a basic logic error.
The fact that 60% of Lab constituencies voted Leave does not mean that 60% of Labour voters voted Leave.
While ever you are making that mistake, you are going to fail to draw the correct conclusions.
Opinion poll after opinion poll have shown that 3/4s or so of Labour voters supported Remain. I know you don't want that to be true, but it is.
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Tyke.
Stop ranting. Read what I said.
You are making a basic logic error.
The fact that 60% of Lab constituencies voted Leave does not mean that 60% of Labour voters voted Leave.
While ever you are making that mistake, you are going to fail to draw the correct conclusions.
Opinion poll after opinion poll have shown that 3/4s or so of Labour voters supported Remain. I know you don't want that to be true, but it is.
I thought you'd more oil in your lamp than opinion polls Billy but there you are .
60% of Labour held seats voted to leave the EU but that's not a true reflection of the Labour vote is a remarkable claim .
So presumably 40% is ? .
70% of Tory held seats voted to leave the EU also , presumably that's not a true reflection either ?
Perhaps the 52% was a minority vote too in the referendum ?
So 60% of Labour held seats and 70% of Tory ones voted to leave and Starmer goes with his second referendum policy .
You not think in all honesty that's not flawed and stinks of playing to the gallery his heart sits ? .
Mandelson might think it's 1997 but the truth is the electorate aren't buying it .
Including yourself .
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Economically to the left and culturally to the right - that is literally Kier Starmer's Labour Party!
Despite the press headlines and spin, the Johnson government is economically to the right (this taxpayers money that is supposed to have gone to 'the regions' has actually gone/going to tax doding multi-nationals' and socially to the far-right.
Never mind about Johnson show me evidence that Labour is economically to the left and culturally to the right please ?
Starmer dare not even state the energy companies should be back in public ownership despite the fact loads of em are falling quicker than Barnsley and Rovers .
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Tyke. At the risk of being accused of playing the man, you are talking pure nonsense and frankly, it's pointless talking with you if you won't accept basic premises.
I'll say it one last time to see if it sinks in. 60% of Labour constituencies voting Leave is not the same as 60% of Labour voters voting Leave.
Until you get that, it's pointless talking to you.
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Tyke. At the risk of being accused of playing the man, you are talking pure nonsense and frankly, it's pointless talking with you if you won't accept basic premises.
I'll say it one last time to see if it sinks in. 60% of Labour constituencies voting Leave is not the same as 60% of Labour voters voting Leave.
Until you get that, it's pointless talking to you.
Billy you are making a fundamental mistake in trying to reconcile a two way referendum vote with the electoral system in this country .
If 73% of my town voted to leave the EU which they did and the local MP is a solid remainer which he was then that's surely a huge problem .
That is fairly typical of where the red wall was give or take in 2016 .
Don't forget we lost Dennis Skinner to this who was as anti EU as they come .
You simply can't brush this shyte under the carpet .
The facts are that the Labour Party may well be pro EU but the electorate in the numbers they need to win a GE aren't .
That's a solid fact and whilst you may come up with what ever figures you want to prove the point the fact is it doesn't convert to political capital .
The majority of this country is culturally to the right irrespective of which party they choose to vote for in the system we have here .
I've seen no solid evidence that Labour want to change the political system we have here so you live or die on that hill .
I've seen no evidence either that they want to form pacts with the other pro EU parties to defeat the Tories .
So if the support you claim the Labour Party has is real then why aren't their doing your so called majority a favour and sticking to their beliefs .
I wouldn't have thought the Libs , Greens and SNP at price are miles apart in such an issue .
If you have the numbers back it up Billy .
Or have you ?
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The Starmer shitshow continues, with the latest that now "Labour has suspended Angela Rayner’s head of communications in an escalation of hostilities between her and Sir Keir Starmer".
Reported in The Sunday Times, but paywalled.
Not content with unlawful expulsions, exodus of members, loss of union financial support, and the threat of bankruptcy, Keith has got his foot down on the destruction pedal.
The real question for Labour is how Starmer thinks he will be able to run an election campaign of any sort, without money or people to campaign.
End days these, for effective opposition.
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As DRFC is showing Albie, when a previous manager leaves one in deep shit it take a massive effort to pull oneself out.
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Albie
What do you think they should do with someone who has allegedly broken confidentiality in briefing journalists?
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BST,
I would expect due process to be followed, wouldn't you?
I would not expect that an allegation (which has been denied) to pass into the public domain via the press.
The person suspended found out about it from the Sunday Times.
Lawyers and the Union for that person point out that Starmer has committed exactly the same misdemour that the suspension was for.
Expect further fall-out.
Looking at the bigger picture, it is another example of action taken without thinking through consequences.
Precisely the sort of error that has put the party in jeopardy of insolvency.
Remember this comes after the massive data breach, still to be resolved.
It is called maladministration.
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And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?
Albie someone has to get a grip.
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Unite have announced they are withdrawing extra funding to the Labour Party although they will still pay the million quid affiliation fee .
Personally I wouldn't even bother with the affiliation either .
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And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?
Albie someone has to get a grip.
The centre of the Labour Party also lost two elections Sydney .
It's an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth .
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And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?
Albie someone has to get a grip.
The centre of the Labour Party also lost two elections Sydney .
It's an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth .
I guess one has to look at the order of things, which came first and how the former affected the latter.
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And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?
Albie someone has to get a grip.
The centre of the Labour Party also lost two elections Sydney .
It's an uncomfortable truth but it is the truth .
I guess one has to look at the order of things, which came first and how the former affected the latter.
Well the fact is a centrist Labour government pre brexit lost two elections no matter how you want to dress it up .
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But no one has lost an election like the left headed by Corbyn Tyke, which has threatened the foundations of the whole left movement and allowed a far right wing government to break the law, abandon human rights, discard the UN convention for refugees.
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But no one has lost an election like the left headed by Corbyn Tyke, which has threatened the foundations of the whole left movement and allowed a far right wing government to break the law, abandon human rights, discard the UN convention for refugees.
You know as well as I do why Corbyn was rinsed in 2019 Sydney and that's because of Labour's ambiguous brexit position .
For sure he was a weak man with some particularly dodgy past acquaintances which didn't help .
He put the shyte up the few in this country following the 2017 election .
You don't get a campaign like that against the likes of Corbyn without good reason .
Nobody cares about Starmer because he's one of them . the status quo , business as usual .
Starmer doesn't carry the baggage Corbyn did , very little skeletons in the cupboard and it's a travesty he's not pursuing the same policies Corbyn did .
He was happy enough to endorse that narrative to get elected and subsequently renegaded on every one of em .
Thats unforgivable in my opinion .
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But only and until the left understands that unless they stand together under the one umbrella over all the centre and left this is only shooting the breeze on a third tier football forum. We have established that the electorate will not accept a party made up of the left of the left, we have established that there aren't enough in that cohort anyway, so the only way forward is for a united front.
All the while the clock ticks and the party that makes the rules for everyone else marches on.
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But only and until the left understands that unless they stand together under the one umbrella over all the centre and left this is only shooting the breeze on a third tier football forum. We have established that the electorate will not accept a party made up of the left of the left, we have established that there aren't enough in that cohort anyway, so the only way forward is for a united front.
All the while the clock ticks and the party that makes the rules for everyone else marches on.
The left perfectly understands the game Sydney and I don't ever remember Corbyn purging the centre and right of the Labour movement .
The left have demonstrated a willingness to work with the centre and right but that's not replicated the other way and instead they are content to plot against them , Mandelson is on the record .
Starmer was heavily involved under Corbyn and the proof in the pudding .
When it's the other way around suddenly we all have to bury the hatchet and dance to the centre right tune .
Not going to happen as Unite and the Communications Union are proving .
The money will now be put in to campaigns for social justice .
You reap what you sow Sydney .
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Tyke
I've always said that Corbyn pulled a brilliant trick in 2017 by convincing Left Leavers and Remainers that he was on their side. So he kept the Left and Centre-Left united.
The trouble always was that the Left totally misinterpreted the meaning of that. They thought it was a resounding vote in support of Corbynism. They ignored the fact that Labour still lost against THE worst campaigning PM of all time. They said the fact that Corbyn added votes to Labour's tally showed that Corbyn was popular (ignoring the fact that May, who could barely put two consecutive cogent words together, also added over 1million votes to the Tory tally). They ignored the fact that UKIP was temporarily sidelined and the votes went home to Lab AND Con in an election where Brexit didn't really matter.
I said at that time that he couldn't possibly pull that trick a second time, because by the time of the next election after 2017, Labour would have had to put its cards on the table and state clearly whether they supported Brexit or not. And when Corbyn finally came out in early 2019 as the Brexit supporter everyone knew he was, the result was a catastrophe. Labour fell from 40% to 20% in the polls in a matter of months - the sharpest fall in Labour support since the Great Depression.
It is simply ridiculous for people on the Left to blame the defeat in 2019 on Labour finally coming out for Ref2 in Autumn 2019. I sometimes wish that the clearer heads in the Labour party had let Corbyn have the Brexit policy he wanted in the 2019 election and supported Brexit (even though the membership was massively in favour of Ref2). Then at least the Corbynite/Bennite Left would have owned the result which would have left Labour with less than 100 seats. Then they could have been swept into the dustbin of history where they deserve to be, instead of doing what they always do and blaming everyone else.
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By the way Tyke. On one hand you criticise Labour for not supporting electoral pacts. On the other you sing the praises of the Unions.
It was the Union vote at Conference this year that block a motion which had overwhelming support from the members that called for electoral pacts. Which way do you want it?
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By the way Tyke. On one hand you criticise Labour for not supporting electoral pacts. On the other you sing the praises of the Unions.
It was the Union vote at Conference this year that block a motion which had overwhelming support from the members that called for electoral pacts. Which way do you want it?
No Billy I criticise Starmer for not honouring his leadership pledges pre leadership election .
I find it abhorrent that the centre and right of the party whether in parliament , members or those who support Starmer won't call it out .
I find it abhorrent that nothing is said of Starmer the democracy denier and his ill fated second referendum .
I find it abhorrent that a man such as Mandelson whose on the record as plotting against its twice elected leader by a landslide should be brought back to higher echelons of the party and nobody says shyte .
It seems sticking two fingers up to democracy , bare faced lying to promote your career and a lack of integrity sits fine just as long as the tune getting played is music to the ears of those of a political persuasion .
How low the bar can go is anyone's guess .
You'll have to be more specific with the union's electoral pact .
There's unions who are happy to happy clap to the Starmer tune and there's a couple who have pulled the funding .
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And the bit about the previous manager leaving the party divided, having to pay court costs and with the worst defeat since Culloden?
Albie someone has to get a grip.
Sydney,
Only just seen this, and you are as wrong as you could be.
Labour is more divided under Keith than it has ever been in my lifetime.
Loss of members, and reductions in union financial support is a total disaster before the next GE.
Starmer did not inherit court costs.
Labour had legal advice that the claims of anti-semitism were without merit, and Labour would win if taken to court.
Starmer preferred to avoid having to present evidence in court which would have exposed the false claims, because it would demonstrate the point made about creating a false narrative.
This would have undermined the extreme centrists, so Keith settled out of court.
Worst defeat since Culloden?
I think not.
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Albie.
The Left love that idea that Corbyn won so many votes in 2017.
It is meaningless because it ignores the single most important fact.
2017 is the only election of this century where it was effectively a straight fight in England and Wales between Labour and the Tories.
UKIP were strong in 2015.
LDs were strong throughout the 00s.
But in 2017, those two were effectively sidelined. UKIP had vanished because, temporarily Brexit wasn't an issue. The LDs had committed suicide by being in the Coalition. None of that was Corbyn's doing. It was simply circumstance. You basically only had two choices in most of England and Wales in 2017.
Now consider this. even with the Left deserting Labour and wasting their support on the Greens, and even with the LDs having been given a boost by Corbyn's Brexit policy in 2019, Stamer's Labour party is still up at around 37% in the polls. Which would give Labour 11,000,000+ votes if there was an election tomorrow. Think where they would be if those people from the Left didn't waste their votes and give Johnson an inside run.
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BST,
As you well know, the worst Labour vote in modern times was that for Prudence Broon in 2010.
28% of the vote is extremely poor, but is not just the fault of Broon and his policies. The rot set in earlier with Blair, and Broon failed to halt the decline by doubling down on centrism.
Reverting back to the policies which brought universal apathy is a braindead response, unless you hold to magical incantation as a political philosophy.
Whatever the temporary standing of Labour in the polls, it makes no difference if those votes are not in the right place under FPTP.
Labour could, in theory, achieve the greater share of the votes cast and still lose the GE under FPTP.
The current polling suggests only a reduced Tory majority.
So, are Labour improving in Scotland? This is the critical measure of viability.
No is the answer, so in that one measure a Labour success is highly unlikely.
You seem to believe that repeating that Johnson or nowt is the choice is going to persuade folk to back nowt.
Zero evidence that I can see to support that theory.
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As you well know, the worst Labour vote in modern times was that for Prudence Broon in 2010.
28% of the vote is extremely poor, but is not just the fault of Broon and his policies. The rot set in earlier with Blair, and Broon failed to halt the decline by doubling down on centrism.
This is a classic of the genre "I've decided what I want my conclusion to be and I'll interpret the facts in a way that supports what I've already decided."
Yes Labour got hammered in 2010. Very, very few Governments win after 13 years in power. Very, very few Governments win after the worst recession in three generations. So Labour getting hammered wasn't a surprise. But to attribute it to Labour nor being Left enough is a conclusion you have pulled out of thin air, because you want it to be right.
Labour lost in 2010 because their votes from 2001 and 2005 went to Clegg's LDs and Cameron's Tories, not to vanguards of the Socialist Utopia. Corbyn's success (sic) in 2017 was largely due to the LDs having collapsed as an option for anyone on the centre-Left.
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BST,
You are projecting your own interpretation again.
I did not say Broon wasn't left enough for voters...Broon lost because he stood for continuity of policies that the electorate had tired of.
There was nothing new or distinctive in the offer, just the others are worse....not a good sales pitch.
This is precisely the same mistake dour Keith is making, vote for me or it will be worse...hopeless marketing.
I would be cautious about saying governments can't win after 13 years in power, because the Tories are likely to do that after 14 years on current form. Better to say that Labour have a much bigger problem with timelines under FPTP.
Consider for a moment those you say are wasting their vote by choosing Greens or another party.
Why would they be doing so?
Could it be the hostile environment Keith and his handlers have built within Labour?
Make people homeless and they will seek shelter....the far centre has a very poor grasp of human psychology.
Right up there with football managers IMO.
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I don't know why people on the Left are insisting on acting in a way that would keep Johnson in power. It genuinely baffles me. My take has always been to hold my nose and vote in a way that produces the least bad outcome, rather than indulge myself and call it "being principled".
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There you go again, BST.
Its not just people on the left, is it?
It is people who do not see what Keith brings to the party, how he gives them a belief in something better.
Pitching a return to the dog days of New Labour is about as welcome as a death at a birthday party.
Keith is correctly seen as beige meets grey, and with the personality of a wet fart.
Nothingness as a defining characteristic is not the way to hearts and minds, but the Labour right is just too thick to see it.
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And yet...18 months after taking over a party which Corbyn had left at 24% in the polls, Labour are currently on 37% and rising.
And yes I know that's not enough. It'd be more if a few more people held their nose and supported a flawed left of centre party rather than open the door for Johnson.
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And yet...18 months after taking over a party which Corbyn had left at 24% in the polls, Labour are currently on 37% and rising.
And yes I know that's not enough. It'd be more if a few more people held their nose and supported a flawed left of centre party rather than open the door for Johnson.
Have you considered that enough people are doing alright and Starmer isn't attractive enough to want to change things Billy ?
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No Tyke.
I've considered that since Starmer replaced Corbyn, the number of 2019 Labour voters who now say they will vote Green has doubled. And if there was an election tomorrow, those votes would be the difference between a Labour Govt or a Johnson Govt.
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Keith has asked women complaining about sexual harassment to sign non-disclosure agreements;
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/04/labour-women-urge-party-not-to-use-ndas-for-sexual-harassment-allegations
Talk about authoritarian!
Absolutely appalling behaviour.....I hope the unions representing these women back them to the hilt.
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This just stinks of the desperately poor judgement and leadership that permeates from Starmer, he has form for these type of underhand dealings going back to his DPP days when dealing with the Rotherham and Saville issues.
My advice to Labour, get rid, this dull grey man, makes John Major look like action man on steroids, how Labour ever saddled itself with this leader will be its constant epitaph after another Johnson led victory, that will live with us all forever.
Will we ever have a political party leader, who can be called that without constant guffaws from all sides.
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I had to giggle at Mike Graeme saying it was two years to the day today that old Stabber had become the leader of the Labour Party, and that they were going to discuss how the party had changed under his leadership.
But there would still be two hour fifty eight minutes to discuss other main topics.
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I had to giggle at Mike Graeme saying it was two years to the day today that old Stabber had become the leader of the Labour Party, and that they were going to discuss how the party had changed under his leadership.
But there would still be two hour fifty eight minutes to discuss other main topics.
I have said before and will say again - there is no way the right wing media will allow a Labour government. If they cant find stories they will just invent them - and the better they do in the polls the more they will be attacked.
Did Mike Graeme mention the billionaire wife of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is recorded as a non-domicile for tax purposes? Thus she has avoided tax on all overseas earnings, inculding her £400 million Russian investments, whilst her husband at British taxpayers expense. Thought not - he should stick to growing concrete.
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Mike Graham is quite something.
I'd assumed that he wouldn't ever be taken seriously by anyone again after his verbal diarrhoea resulted in him saying concrete grows like wood.
But I see Selby is still lis...ahhh! Yep, I see the flaw in my post.
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Mike Graham is quite something.
I'd assumed that he wouldn't ever be taken seriously by anyone again after his verbal diarrhoea resulted in him saying concrete grows like wood.
But I see Selby is still lis...ahhh! Yep, I see the flaw in my post.
Graham is a lot smarter than his listeners, he's the one on the big salary feeding the chooks
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I had to giggle at Mike Graeme saying it was two years to the day today that old Stabber had become the leader of the Labour Party, and that they were going to discuss how the party had changed under his leadership.
But there would still be two hour fifty eight minutes to discuss other main topics.
I have said before and will say again - there is no way the right wing media will allow a Labour government. If they cant find stories they will just invent them - and the better they do in the polls the more they will be attacked.
Did Mike Graeme mention the billionaire wife of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is recorded as a non-domicile for tax purposes? Thus she has avoided tax on all overseas earnings, inculding her £400 million Russian investments, whilst her husband at British taxpayers expense. Thought not - he should stick to growing concrete.
This is quite something that she first had to be shamed into shutting down the russian arm of the business and than we find that she doesn't pay tax in the UK, this says it all about the privileged classes, especially as you read on this forum about members struggling with their everyday energy bills.
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Slightly wrong there she doesn't pay tax on income from abroad. Any income from the UK is taxed. Yes on face value it stinks but there is nothing wrong in it. She pays taxes where she is domiciled, presumably in India where she was born, on foreign income but at what rate one wonders
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Yep I accept that Raven, thanks, let's hope her visas is up to date, otherwise May will be on her case.
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And a bit more to the story
''However, tax experts have said non-dom status is not automatic but a choice.
Prof Richard Murphy, a Sheffield University academic who co-founded the Tax Justice Network, said: “Domicile has nothing to do with a person’s nationality. In other words, the claims made in the statement issued by Ms Murty are wrong, and as evidence, just because a person has Indian citizenship will never automatically grant them non-dom status in the UK.”''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/07/kwasi-kwarteng-defends-non-domicile-tax-status-of-chancellors-wife-akshata-murthy-rishi-sunak
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Let’s be honest. Who in their right mind wouldn’t avoid tax if they could
It’s not the people who are doing wrong it’s the system that allows it
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Let’s be honest. Who in their right mind wouldn’t avoid tax if they could
It’s not the people who are doing wrong it’s the system that allows it
And that's the question phil, are the circumstances contrived, is the option available to all.
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Let’s be honest. Who in their right mind wouldn’t avoid tax if they could
It’s not the people who are doing wrong it’s the system that allows it
Of course, our Chancellor could tighten up the rules. But that would make the atmos at tea time a bit frosty...
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Is this actually a nothing story created by Labour to try and undermine the Chancellor
Unless I’ve missed something (which wouldn’t be the first time) there is nothing to suggest she’s not paying tax. She’s just not paying tax in this country on business interests abroad. I’m assuming she’s paying tax where the businesses are based
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The main point seems to be where her permanent home is it appears thete are 4, 3 in GB 1 in USA but none registered in India
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Let’s be honest. Who in their right mind wouldn’t avoid tax if they could
It’s not the people who are doing wrong it’s the system that allows it
Of course, our Chancellor could tighten up the rules. But that would make the atmos at tea time a bit frosty...
Not really her non dom status means her main home is India
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Is this actually a nothing story created by Labour to try and undermine the Chancellor
Unless I’ve missed something (which wouldn’t be the first time) there is nothing to suggest she’s not paying tax. She’s just not paying tax in this country on business interests abroad. I’m assuming she’s paying tax where the businesses are based
Quite the opposite Phil, there is nothing to confirm that the billionairess Mrs Sunak is paying tax:
NEW: spokesperson for Rishi Sunak's wife, Akshata Murty, says:
• It is not "relevant" where she pays tax on overseas income.
• She pays £30,000 a year to keep her UK non-dom status.
• It is possible the arrangements mean she uses tax havens.
https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/status/1512090627168632839
Or how the news came out. It certainly wasn't created by Labour. It was leaked to a newspaper and Labour have commented on the story only after it came out. Nothing at all on their comms.
Yah makes your own choices about who wanted to knock down Sunak's popularity? Apparently there were rows last week over Sunak's budget that Johnson wanted more spending but Sunak over-ruled him. And that photo of Johnson having a party in his garden that got in the papers and turned the public against him - where was it taken from again and how did it get out?
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Wilts as I said maybe I misunderstood
I stand enlightened
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And the bit about everyone would reduce tax if they could, not everyone. In Oz there is of course private health insurance and to incentivise uptake there is a government medicare levy surcharge which is a % of your wage if you don't have private insurance. I am opposed to private health care and have paid this levy rather than buy the cheap junk medical insurance policies designed solely for the purposes of avoiding tax.
the levy is not paid by low income earners and since retirement from full time work I think junk insurance has been banned
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Do they do free brain surgery Syd?
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After pissing off women with non disclosure agreements on sexual harassment, Keith has locked horns with his own staff again.
Starmer now on a collision course with trade unions over plans to reduce pension benefits, according to Sienna Rodgers of Labour List:
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1512456428958666756
The fella is a slo-mo car crash.
Best to keep the unions onside, Keith!
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Do they do free brain surgery Syd?
did they charge you?
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Some of the Starmer financial backers are from the motor industry:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/keir-starmers-donations-car-industry-motoring-revealed-oil-protests/
It does raise the issue of the position taken by Labour against the eco-protests in support of climate action.
Back in the old days this was a source of income for Labour....remember the Bernie Ecclestone affair?
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All donations to political parties and MPs should be declared within 7 days.
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Are you suggesting that the donations were not declared within seven days?
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Perhaps Starmer has grown a pair......
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61210585
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Lots of contributors on here do plenty of whingeing about right wing Tory factions but Corbyn was running a full on extreme left parasitic faction, hosting on the center left Labour carcass.
If they had got their way at the last election i dred to think where we would be now with regards to dealing with the despot in Russia.
I wonder how Keith would have squared his faux credentials in this instance?
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Lots of contributors on here do plenty of whingeing about right wing Tory factions but Corbyn was running a full on extreme left parasitic faction, hosting on the center left Labour carcass.
If they had got their way at the last election i dred to think where we would be now with regards to dealing with the despot in Russia.
I wonder how Keith would have squared his faux credentials in this instance?
You should read the Times story, it tells everyone exactly why we are here in this place right now.
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Labour have announced a plan to resolve the issue of non-doms;
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/apr/25/rachel-reeves-promises-labour-will-close-non-dom-tax-loophole#Echobox=1650862928
Trouble is the plan is simply to reduce the timeline from 15 years to 5 years.
The relevant bit from the Guardian report is here:
"Labour said it would consult widely on how its new “temporary resident tax regime” would work but that any tax advantages would be likely to expire after five years, compared with up to 15 years under the current system".
So basically keep non-dom status but restrict the period it is available.
The Labour manifesto promise was to abolish this form of tax evasion.
No substantive change to the money machine for the wealthy.
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Spoiler: McDonnell is not the shadow treasurer, following the worst defeat in living memory.
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Sorry Syd,
Are you saying keeping non-dom status is a good thing?
It seems a very bad idea indeed to me, I can't see how that fits with any intention to change the laundromat economy!
Do you really think that the super wealthy should have a legitimate route to avoid UK tax liabilities?
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Sorry Syd,
Are you saying keeping non-dom status is a good thing?
It seems a very bad idea indeed to me, I can't see how that fits with any intention to change the laundromat economy!
Do you really think that the super wealthy should have a legitimate route to evade UK tax liabilities?
Point of order albie, tax evasion (you mention it in your earlier post) is illegal and the non dom status doesn’t provide an illegal way to pay reduced tax.
Perhaps you meant tax avoidance which provides legal ways to reduce your tax liabilities.
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Point taken, Hound.
I have amended the post.
Now, what do you think about the plan to give a 5 year window?
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Point taken, Hound.
I have amended the post.
Now, what do you think about the plan to give a 5 year window?
I think it is fair to say that people who have the UK as their main residence should be required to pay UK taxes.
It isn’t just the super rich though who have been taking advantage of the non dom situation.
I know people who have worked abroad, kept a home in England but banked in tax havens.
It isn’t such a rare thing.
With regards to tax avoidance, there will be plenty of people on this site who are making a noise about the likes of the Sunak situation, who do the same thing (on a much lower scale of course) to pay as little income tax, CGT and unearned income tax as they can.
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Sorry Syd,
Are you saying keeping non-dom status is a good thing?
It seems a very bad idea indeed to me, I can't see how that fits with any intention to change the laundromat economy!
Do you really think that the super wealthy should have a legitimate route to avoid UK tax liabilities?
No apology required Albie, have you asked Rachel Reeves what she means by closing the non-dom loophole?
Found it ......
''Previous Labour leaders Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn had vowed to scrap non-dom status altogether.
But Reeves said her proposed programme would be more in line with schemes in Canada, Germany and France. Labour would sort out the details in due course, she said.
“This would be a clear, simple and modern system, ending the 200-year-old rules we currently follow that mean domicile is passed down through people’s fathers,” she said.
The initiative is part of a wider review of tax breaks by Labour that was promised by Reeves at the party conference last autum''
https://www.ft.com/content/f22035ed-f357-45a2-89dd-492649973e30
Maybe it would be easier for you to say what you want from the party you don't vote for, do you want them to be more like the tories or more like the corbyn brand, out of office?
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Albie, I may be incorrect about this but if you look at the very recent election in France you can see that Melenchon came in a credible third by all accounts and narrowly missed out getting through to the next round.
''Melenchon has called on his supporters not to vote for Le Pen, repeating the injunction four times in a speech to supporters after the first round. But he has stopped short of advocating Macron and said his La France insoumise (France Unbowed) party would hold a public consultation to help guide those who backed him.
''According to results published on Sunday from about 215,000 people who took part, more than 66% said they would abstain, leave their ballot paper blank or spoil it. Just over 33% said they would vote for Macron. The option of voting for Le Pen was not given to respondents.''
https://www.france24.com/en/france/20220417-leftist-party-consultation-shows-majority-will-abstain-vote-blank-in-macron-le-pen-run-off
This appears to be how to do it, ensure the right don't get in and live to fight another day.
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Melenchon was playing a very high risk game in not calling on his supporters to vote for Macron.
I don't like Macron and he wouldn't have been my first choice. But politics is often about dealing with a less than perfect choice, rather than being in the world you'd like to inhabit. Not voting for Macron in a straight run-off between him and LePen ran the risk of allowing a far-right leader to become President. At the very least it gave LePen a higher percentage of the vote, strengthening the far right for the future. I simply do not understand how anyone who purports to be on the Left can do that and then be able to look at themselves in the mirror.
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Melenchon was playing a very high risk game in not calling on his supporters to vote for Macron.
I don't like Macron and he wouldn't have been my first choice. But politics is often about dealing with a less than perfect choice, rather than being in the world you'd like to inhabit. Not voting for Macron in a straight run-off between him and LePen ran the risk of allowing a far-right leader to become President. At the very least it gave LePen a higher percentage of the vote, strengthening the far right for the future. I simply do not understand how anyone who purports to be on the Left can do that and then be able to look at themselves in the mirror.
I agree billy but I would think that many of Melenchon's voters wouldn't have taken kindly to be asked to vote for Macron, so yes a great risk but it leaves him in a secure position. I would also think that he had some internal polling done to see what his supporters would do.
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Point taken, Hound.
I have amended the post.
Now, what do you think about the plan to give a 5 year window?
I think it is fair to say that people who have the UK as their main residence should be required to pay UK taxes.
It isn’t just the super rich though who have been taking advantage of the non dom situation.
I know people who have worked abroad, kept a home in England but banked in tax havens.
It isn’t such a rare thing.
With regards to tax avoidance, there will be plenty of people on this site who are making a noise about the likes of the Sunak situation, who do the same thing (on a much lower scale of course) to pay as little income tax, CGT and unearned income tax as they can.
Hound,
I don't disagree with that, but there is a big difference in scale between the super wealthy sidestepping tax via off shore havens and small scale tax avoidance.
This is an industry of avoidance which limits the ability of states to properly provide help to those who will be on the sharp end of the cost of living crisis.
The problem with Labour simply renaming non-dom and allowing a 5 year window is that it does nothing to prevent the laundromat economy.
All that will happen is that the accountants and lawyers making a good living out of advising will have another business model involving transferring assets on a 5 year cycle.
It is about pretending to act, while doing nothing to prevent the oligarchs continuing business as usual.
This is Reeves signalling to the financially corrupt that their interests are safe under Labour.
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I wonder who Hound thinks these "plenty of people" in here are?
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Melenchon was playing a very high risk game in not calling on his supporters to vote for Macron.
I don't like Macron and he wouldn't have been my first choice. But politics is often about dealing with a less than perfect choice, rather than being in the world you'd like to inhabit. Not voting for Macron in a straight run-off between him and LePen ran the risk of allowing a far-right leader to become President. At the very least it gave LePen a higher percentage of the vote, strengthening the far right for the future. I simply do not understand how anyone who purports to be on the Left can do that and then be able to look at themselves in the mirror.
I agree billy but I would think that many of Melenchon's voters wouldn't have taken kindly to be asked to vote for Macron, so yes a great risk but it leaves him in a secure position. I would also think that he had some internal polling done to see what his supporters would do.
I think Melenchon would have also had an ear to the upcoming parliamentary elections where his party will expect to do well and nab some high profile positions there.
There is a good possibility of Macron's party disappearing as fast as they arrived and in some respects it could be back to something that is similar to previous parliamentary governance.
Testing times for the minute frog, and not before time, if anything this bloke will destroy the EU hegemony by trying to bulldozer the rest into his crazed ideas for Europe(the part that partake in it)
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Point taken, Hound.
I have amended the post.
Now, what do you think about the plan to give a 5 year window?
I think it is fair to say that people who have the UK as their main residence should be required to pay UK taxes.
It isn’t just the super rich though who have been taking advantage of the non dom situation.
I know people who have worked abroad, kept a home in England but banked in tax havens.
It isn’t such a rare thing.
With regards to tax avoidance, there will be plenty of people on this site who are making a noise about the likes of the Sunak situation, who do the same thing (on a much lower scale of course) to pay as little income tax, CGT and unearned income tax as they can.
Fabric*nt
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Point taken, Hound.
I have amended the post.
Now, what do you think about the plan to give a 5 year window?
I think it is fair to say that people who have the UK as their main residence should be required to pay UK taxes.
It isn’t just the super rich though who have been taking advantage of the non dom situation.
I know people who have worked abroad, kept a home in England but banked in tax havens.
It isn’t such a rare thing.
With regards to tax avoidance, there will be plenty of people on this site who are making a noise about the likes of the Sunak situation, who do the same thing (on a much lower scale of course) to pay as little income tax, CGT and unearned income tax as they can.
Fabric*nt
Is that your educated way of saying I am wrong?
Or is it your usual way of not adding anything of interest to the debate.
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I just thought your whataboutery reply was on par with his is all hound, which I think you'd agree, casting a slur on good members of the forum.
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I just thought your whataboutery reply was on par with his is all hound, which I think you'd agree, casting a slur on good members of the forum.
No whataboutery involved at all and certainly no slur on anyone of the forum.
I think it is beyond any doubt that even good people have accountants who keep the tax bills down.
Even people who do their own tax returns find a way to manipulate the figures to save a few shillings.
Why do you suggest I am casting a slur on anyone when this is legal.
And I certainly don’t resort to insults, as you do.
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I think you should support you allegations with some proof hound, you have some I take it? Or is this going to be another if your never ending conversations where you absolve yourself.
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I think you should support you allegations with some proof hound, you have some I take it? Or is this going to be another if your never ending conversations where you absolve yourself.
You do say some silly things SR.
How do you think I can provide proof?
Oh hang on a minute …… you want me to ask others to send me their private details.
You really are deluded.
Or maybe you have never done a tax return or had an accountant so haven’t a clue what happens in the real world.
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No proof that would mean you don't know what you are talking about then.
fabric*nt did it with his slur on nurses and teachers ........
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No proof that would mean you don't know what you are talking about then.
If you say so.
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I do say so, you're talking shit
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I do say so, you're talking shit
Others will know I’m not but you can have your opinion of course.
But well done for proving you have no idea about the real world. LoL.
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Only that fabric*nt smeared the good name of teachers and nurses to cover for the criminal act of partying while thousands were dying and you are going into bat for a super wealthy treasurer that could not see a problem with increasing taxes for many that cannot makes ends meet while his partner pays as little as she possibly could.
And you hound liken this situation to members of the forum, maybe you are thinking about your personal position and then think others are like you?
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How much extra tax are people paying this financial year? What level would you say people should pay increased taxes?
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The more money those earning the least have goes straight back into the economy.
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The more money those earning the least have goes straight back into the economy.
Can you answer the question?
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What has it got to do with the current conversation?
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You made a point about tax rises, I asked you what you think they should be? I'm not quite sure what the issue is?
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If you quote my comment you'd have a better chance of getting an answer
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Shall I make a cup of tea?
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Only that fabric*nt smeared the good name of teachers and nurses to cover for the criminal act of partying while thousands were dying and you are going into bat for a super wealthy treasurer that could not see a problem with increasing taxes for many that cannot makes ends meet while his partner pays as little as she possibly could.
And you hound liken this situation to members of the forum, maybe you are thinking about your personal position and then think others are like you?
Syd, you need to grow up pal.
You are taking the conversation off at a tangent by bringing the partying into this.
FWIIW I think it was wrong and they have been fined for doing it.
I am not defending the chancellor either.
All I am saying is that there are plenty of people who are having a pop at him and his wife who are keeping there own taxes down by either manipulating their tax return or employing an accountant to keep their dues down.
It isn’t a secret and it isn’t illegal.
You are either so naive that you don’t know about stuff like that or are just being bloody minded enough to make an argument about it for the sake of making an argument.
I am going for the latter because that is your standard practice.
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I haven't a clue what you are on about hound but I'd guess you're clearing yourself of all blame and you didn't mean what you said ever.
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I haven't a clue what you are on about hound but I'd guess you're clearing yourself of all blame and you didn't mean what you said ever.
Enough said, you aren’t worth engaging with.
As was said in the south stand, a truly horrible man.
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I was correct then?
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hound:
''With regards to tax avoidance, there will be plenty of people on this site who are making a noise about the likes of the Sunak situation, who do the same thing (on a much lower scale of course) to pay as little income tax, CGT and unearned income tax as they can.
This is not comparing a mega-rich treasurer who's partner who's partner has even more money, to those on those on this forum?
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Sydney.
Which of these would you consider to be the most dangerous shark for swimmers.
1 The Great White.
2 The Hammer Head.
3 The Sneaky Upper.
Thank you.
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Sydney.
Which of these would you consider to be the most dangerous shark for swimmers.
1 The Great White.
2 The Hammer Head.
3 The Sneaky Upper.
Thank you.
Not the answer you're looking for but looking at the numbers of attacks compared to numbers of swimmers the risk is low, more chance of getting murdered than getting attacked by a shark.
There was nearly 400 homicides in 2020.
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In the sea!?
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An overlooked safety tip is that sharks only kill wet people
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Gummy sharks can give you a nasty suck apparently.
All shark attacks in United Kingdom
http://www.sharkattackdata.com/place/united_kingdom
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Because he is Syd, the man is a Quisling, a puppet who was willing to undermine and try and overturn a democratic vote by the British electorate. A stabber in the back merchant not ever to be trusted.
Has no one told you Brexit has been done and you're supposed to be geting over it? Especially with it going so well. All you Remoaners banging on forever....
Plus extra irony alert about politicans that you trust!
Me, I'll never vote Tory again because of the Gold Standard. And the Whigs can f**k right off over their position on the Corn Laws.
I have finally realised who you are, you are Adam Adamant and i claim my £5