Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: River Don on September 29, 2021, 11:08:35 pm
-
Three more utilities go bust.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/sep/29/three-more-uk-energy-suppliers-toppled-by-gas-price-surge
-
More blackouts in China.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/29/china-hit-by-power-cuts-and-factory-closures-as-energy-crisis-bites
-
GAS MARKET: European natural gas closes at a fresh all-time high after rising >10% today (both for UK NBP and Dutch TTF benchmarks). At the close, European gas was at the equivalent of ~$29 per mBtu, or close to $170 per barrel of oil equivalent. Yes, you read that correctly.
$170 a barrel... The economy can't take that for long.
-
It's the same with coal.
Asian benchmark coal (Newcastle) has been changing hands on the spot market above $200 per tonne for the last couple of days, above the weekly all-time high set in July 2008. Incredible prices, with runaway Chinese demand clashing against ESG-crunched supply |
The BoE, Fed and EU are all taking of supply chain bottlenecks this morning. What's behind that is the eye watering cost of energy.
-
It needs some action and whilst I'm far from keen on it, the government does need to consider subsidising energy to an extent this winter for those least well off. We've changed our energy supplier at the end of our deal and it's going up to over £130 a month and a 35%+ increase. That's pricey but ok for me, but for many others that's far, far too much and unaffordable.
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
I mean fundamentally I disagree with that completely. I don't think it should be up to government to determine fuel prices, competition has largely been healthy.
-
I don't think it'll be long before all the small players are squeezed out and we're back to the big 6 with very little competition again.
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
I mean fundamentally I disagree with that completely. I don't think it should be up to government to determine fuel prices, competition has largely been healthy.
I know power is expensive in the UK but £130 a month is a lot, why pay for a myriad of tin pot energy sales organisations that don't produce anything?
Look what privatisation has done to water and sewage.
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
I mean fundamentally I disagree with that completely. I don't think it should be up to government to determine fuel prices, competition has largely been healthy.
I know power is expensive in the UK but £130 a month is a lot, why pay for a myriad of tin pot energy sales organisations that don't produce anything?
Look what privatisation has done to water and sewage.
I have the costs of the hybrid electric car and a 5 bedroom house I'll pay above average, my choice to have both and I can afford it. Others won't be able to afford that.
On your point, I'd argue that the lack of competition is the reason that service is so poor. If the companies could lose their licenses it may prompt better services.
Remove the competition from energy and inevitably prices go higher, do we all want to end up on the energy cap tarriff set by the authorities? That which is higher than most people pay.
-
The problem with the energy market BFYP is it's not really competitive, it largely is a natural monopoly. It's difficult to believe that if it was a large centrally run organisation we wouldn't benefit from economies of scale.
Mind you, when we're buying international gas on the open market, there isn't a right lot anyone can do when prices shoot up like this.
-
Large buyers can hedge as a business strategy, small suppliers do not, by and large.
Public ownership of essential services is far better, because the back up of Treasury support is always available.
Competition does not work well in imperfect markets where consumers are service dependent, and cannot affect the business strategy of the supplier. Public ownership strips out the need for profit to pay shareholders, and allows the industry to plan on the basis of a public service remit.
It is also very popular, because the privatisation of utilities has proved a complete disaster.
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
I mean fundamentally I disagree with that completely. I don't think it should be up to government to determine fuel prices, competition has largely been healthy.
The trouble with privatisation is they have become foreign owned and they are screwing the IK public to the hilt, we’ve abandoned our own resources and become dependant on foreign nations, some that are hostile
-
Elon musk has some interesting thoughts on electricity provision.
He states the whole of the USA could be powered with a single solar farm 100 miles squared. Or a small corner of Ohio. And it would need a battery the size of 1 mile square to hold this power.
He also reckons China has enough unpopulated land to do the same .
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
I mean fundamentally I disagree with that completely. I don't think it should be up to government to determine fuel prices, competition has largely been healthy.
The trouble with privatisation is they have become foreign owned and they are screwing the IK public to the hilt, we’ve abandoned our own resources and become dependant on foreign nations, some that are hostile
A few years ago we got all our imported gas via a pumping set up near Ostend,We bought gas for X £ and thought we were laughing but it didn't come down the pipe, the Guys who owned the pumping set up said "Mais out you can av your Gaz but you pay us £xxx for the privelige of receiving it" that's why we furtively built a Pipe line to
Norway.
-
More blackouts in China.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/29/china-hit-by-power-cuts-and-factory-closures-as-energy-crisis-bites
Being a history buff I can tell you that the last time a nearly medieval country modernised and joined the Industrial world they too found themselves with a severe lack of raw materials, they built a massive modern navy and then attacked the other powers in the region and marched, sailed South! That's why Sydders mates a busy acquiring a fleet of Nuclear subs from us!
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
I mean fundamentally I disagree with that completely. I don't think it should be up to government to determine fuel prices, competition has largely been healthy.
The trouble with privatisation is they have become foreign owned and they are screwing the IK public to the hilt, we’ve abandoned our own resources and become dependant on foreign nations, some that are hostile
Well we don't have much gas left so hard to get that from elsewhere, though we should be actively pursuing other heating methods. Electricity we should be pushing nuclear, solar, wind and not much else. Though I remember the green types largely being against nuclear. Whilst we still use gas we are a bit stuck.
-
By 2032 the Dogger Bank will be producing Enough electricity to fuel 25 million homes, by 2050 it will produce enough for 85 million
-
One of the big utilities on the verge of collapse apparently.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/30/ofgem-prepares-for-looming-failure-of-a-leading-energy-supplier
If things continue to deteriorate, there will be no alternative to nationalisation.
-
One of the big utilities on the verge of collapse apparently.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/30/ofgem-prepares-for-looming-failure-of-a-leading-energy-supplier
If things continue to deteriorate, there will be no alternative to nationalisation.
We can always tap the johnson government haha
-
And this morning...
Business confidence has “fallen off a cliff”, as supply bottlenecks, rising energy prices, fuel shortages and looming tax increases hit the economy.
The Institute of Directors has warned that business confidence in the UK has tumbled to its lowest level since February, deep in the last lockdown.
Its index of business morale has dropped from +22 points to –1 point in September meant a return to the pessimism of February, when the economy was constrained by lockdown restrictions.
-
Time to re nationalise the energy sector, something that never should have been privatised in the first place
None of the utilities or railways should belong in private hands. I'd nationalise everything.
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
We and the whole of Europe should never have relied on a Russian energy supply, especially when a terrorist like Putin is in control
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
This
We and the whole of Europe should never have relied on a Russian energy supply, especially when a terrorist like Putin is in control
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
We and the whole of Europe should never have relied on a Russian energy supply, especially when a terrorist like Putin is in control
We should build bridges to get on with Russia. Why are they always painted as the bogieman of the world? Biden hates us, i would love to see the UK allied with Russia. No more USS Great Britain.
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
We and the whole of Europe should never have relied on a Russian energy supply, especially when a terrorist like Putin is in control
We should build bridges to get on with Russia. Why are they always painted as the bogieman of the world? Biden hates us, i would love to see the UK allied with Russia. No more USS Great Britain.
The attempted murder of two Russians on British soil, the murder of a British citizen in the same incident using Novichok, The Murder of another Russian on British soil. The Illegal annexation of Crimia and illegal incursion into Ukraine, the shooting down of that airliner by Russian backed militia. Thats why they are the bogieman of the world, Putin is a terrorist
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
We and the whole of Europe should never have relied on a Russian energy supply, especially when a terrorist like Putin is in control
We should build bridges to get on with Russia. Why are they always painted as the bogieman of the world? Biden hates us, i would love to see the UK allied with Russia. No more USS Great Britain.
The attempted murder of two Russians on British soil, the murder of a British citizen in the same incident using Novichok, The Murder of another Russian on British soil. The Illegal annexation of Crimia and illegal incursion into Ukraine, the shooting down of that airliner by Russian backed militia. Thats why they are the bogieman of the world, Putin is a terrorist
All things that other civilised countries do not do of course....
We like to take a moral high ground are we really much better?
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
We and the whole of Europe should never have relied on a Russian energy supply, especially when a terrorist like Putin is in control
We should build bridges to get on with Russia. Why are they always painted as the bogieman of the world? Biden hates us, i would love to see the UK allied with Russia. No more USS Great Britain.
The attempted murder of two Russians on British soil, the murder of a British citizen in the same incident using Novichok, The Murder of another Russian on British soil. The Illegal annexation of Crimia and illegal incursion into Ukraine, the shooting down of that airliner by Russian backed militia. Thats why they are the bogieman of the world, Putin is a terrorist
All things that other civilised countries do not do of course....
We like to take a moral high ground are we really much better?
A brief look at our history would answer that one, and not in a kind way.
-
It's not just little Britain that has issues.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/europe-tries-soften-blow-surging-power-gas-prices-2021-09-22/
and suspicion about Gazprom's involvement.....
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/group-eu-lawmakers-seeks-probe-gazproms-role-gas-price-surge-2021-09-17/
We and the whole of Europe should never have relied on a Russian energy supply, especially when a terrorist like Putin is in control
We should build bridges to get on with Russia. Why are they always painted as the bogieman of the world? Biden hates us, i would love to see the UK allied with Russia. No more USS Great Britain.
The attempted murder of two Russians on British soil, the murder of a British citizen in the same incident using Novichok, The Murder of another Russian on British soil. The Illegal annexation of Crimia and illegal incursion into Ukraine, the shooting down of that airliner by Russian backed militia. Thats why they are the bogieman of the world, Putin is a terrorist
All things that other civilised countries do not do of course....
We like to take a moral high ground are we really much better?
Have a look at how many politicians and journalists critical of Putin have carelessly fallen out of upstairs windows or just happen to have walked onto bullets in dark alleys.
He's a gangster running a fascist Kleptocracy. Anyone who wants us to ally with him hasn't got any comprehension of the concept of democracy.
-
Tony Blair must be one of the worst war criminals of all time; his actions caused the deaths of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
-
You think Bush would not have invaded Iraq without Blair?
-
You can see with the drone strike that killed at least 10 Afghan people (7 kids) that the US have a knee jerk response button that they press all too often.
-
German power plant runs out of coal.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-01/energy-crisis-forces-german-power-plant-to-halt-on-lack-of-coal
-
From the Telegraph.
Russia’s state gas company Gazprom may have to buy natural gas from European trading hubs this winter to meet contractual supply obligations amid lower pipeline flows, according to Goldman Sachs analysts.
The analysts, including Samantha Dart, wrote in a note: “This could potentially create a squeeze at the physical hub, further exacerbating the upside to gas prices well above” the bank’s $32 per million British thermal unit soft-ceiling scenario.
Futures based on the Dutch Title Transfer Facility hub surged to a record, hitting €100 a megawatt-hour on Friday, or $33.90 per MMbtu, as concerns mount of the possibility that Russian shipments to northwest Europe will disappoint just as winter starts, Goldman said.
Gazprom has been overwhelmed with demand both at home, where it needs to fill storage sites for winter and in its key export market Europe, where inventories are the lowest in more than a decade for the time of year.
I'm not sure how this is supposed to work, TBH.
-
Energy problems in Scandinavia too.
Where as the UK has not had enough wind of late, they have not had enough rain. That's affecting their hydroelectric plants.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/europe-power-crisis-moving-north-040000046.html
Oh, and the price of crude oil is now moving up too.
https://www.ft.com/content/14d4980b-8163-4359-bc4a-fb2b7f7d2c27
-
And more.
European gas stocks are lower then expected at this time of year.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-04/europe-gas-stocks-show-first-signs-of-decline-as-crisis-worsens
Everywhere you look its bad news on the energy front, things are going to become unaffordable this winter.
-
Petrol prices hit an 8 year high.
Brent crude has gone through $80 a barrel today, so pump prices have more to rise.
-
EUROPEAN ENERGY CRUNCH: European natural gas prices hitting fresh record highs, with UK NBP and Dutch TTF up >13% on the day to the equivalent to ~$38 per million Btu. In turn, European electricity prices are jumping this morning too.
To put the rally in European natural gas prices into context, at current prices gas is trading above $215 per barrel of oil equivalent. Yes, that's not a typo: triple-digit starting with a two.
-
We live in an area of Cornwall as does most that relies on oil for fuel, prices are going up and since the beginning of September no one to deliver it. We know people who have non at all, and are been told it could take upto 4 weeks to get more, oil theft is on the rise and the non existent Cornwall police haven’t got the personnel to stop it. It’s vastly becoming a crisis.
-
You've certainly blown the 'escape to the country' view of Cornwall out of the water with your various updates KM, it's appalling.
-
I’m sure we are not the only county to have this issue. Funnily enough Boris was asked about the 100 million shortfall that Cornwall council has this year due to the eu funding stop, the EU paid that out as Cornwall is the poorest region in the British isles (hard to believe from the tv shows promoting it, enticing people to move here and pricing Cornish families from living here where we badly need their labour). He said yesterday it would be be “replicated”…. By which he means… we are going to replace that with £3 million, which you have to apply for, and it’s not guaranteed, but think of all the other fantastic benefits that Brexit will offer you going forward….
-
But at least you can wake in the morning and smell the sovereignty Keith.
-
He, the bag of custard , also said that he wouldn’t ban 2nd homes in Cornwall even though we are at crisis point with housing. To be fair housing is going up everywhere, relatively cheap and affordable just to offset the damage from 2nd homes. And I will hold my hand up I moved down here several years ago to purchase and run holiday homes. We live in our house and I have 2 holiday let’s. I’m part of the problem, but I would hazard a guess all these people buying 2nd homes etc won’t exactly know of the issues Cornwall faces as nor did I. The recent price rises in property here has gone through the roof. Our house which we have owned for 3 years is now worth, 55% more than we paid for it. One of my holiday let’s is worth, 68% more. Great for me but not for the locals on minimal wage that provides the service economy to this county. Anyway rant over, would I move back to Donny… probably not but…. But if I am honest the gap is closing.
-
But at least you can wake in the morning and smell the sovereignty Keith.
I bask in its glow everyday… knowing I’m better than those in Europe…. Who have fuel/food/reasonable priced energy/freedom of movement/working governments etc etc
-
Well, I'm sorry to keep banging on about this but today the Nat Gas price is up again. The equivalent of $290 a barrel of oil. Spitting distance of 300. That's ten times the longterm average before the Great financial crisis.
I'm surprised it isn't really making front page headlines TBH.
"Yesterday, a UK industry body representing energy intensive sectors including steel, chemicals and fertilisers called for more help from the government to ensure they could continue to operate this winter.
Without emergency measures, there could be shutdown at essential industries, they warned.
(https://www.zerohedge.com/s3/files/inline-images/2021-10-06.png?itok=PpsT4D03)
-
The Guardian is carrying a story about it now.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/oct/06/uk-industry-could-face-shutdowns-as-wholesale-gas-price-hits-record-high
-
Remember when we used to be able heat our homes and supply our power stations with good old British Coal, before we started getting ripped off by overseas suppliers
-
Remember when we used to be able heat our homes and supply our power stations with good old British Coal, before we started getting ripped off by overseas suppliers
Right on cue.
Putin has stepped in and made a statement that Russia will stabilise the European gas market. Promising to increase supplies through Ukraine and of course promoting the new Nordstream 2 gaspipeline into Western Europe.
This has instantly calmed the market.
It's very clear who we are dependant on now.
-
Yes Filo, and lot's of the old lads were right when they said eventually the country would pay the price and still had collieries.
I can remember when we had North Sea Gas, coal and oil, and were told we were the only country in Europe with a supposed surfeit of energy; we sold it, shut it, and now buy it.
-
The crystal clear demonstration here is just how utterly dependant we still are on fossil fuels.
Renewables are one thing but intermittancy is a massive issue.
The UK urgently needs to build some gas storage, since we are reliant on it. We also need more nuclear capacity, as unappetising as that is. Taiwan and Hong Kong demonstrates that we don't really want Chinese Nuclear technology either.
And we need to get to work on developing some effective systems to store excess energy generated by renewables.
Edit: this is quite a clever idea. Use hydroelectric power in storage tanks on the seabed below offshore windfarms.
https://www.energie.fraunhofer.de/en/events-trade-fairs/allianz-energy-storage_2019/stensea-offshore-pumped-hydroelectric-storage-c1.html#:~:text=The%20lower%20reservoir%20is%20formed,turbine%20to%20the%20generator%20drive.
Not seen this before.
-
Disagree the answer is nuclear plus renewables. That we haven't pioneered more effective nuclear power is poor judgment. Coal and gas are not the answer, part of transition yes but not the answer.
-
Nuclear is completely uneconomic, compared to declining cost technologies like renewables.
Storage for excess renewable generation is now available at falling costs because of the battery revolution.
No private sector investor will touch it, unless it receives massive subsidies from the public purse.
The guaranteed price for Hinkley point power is way above the market rate strike price for offshore wind and solar, both of which are falling.
Reliance on nuclear means much higher prices for consumers than the alternatives, which makes fuel poverty more of an issue.
-
Why Is Everyone Talking About a Global Power Shortage?
Contributors: Stephen Stapczynski
Updated on September 28, 12:52 AM EDT
What You Need To Know
There is a worrying shortage of energy from Europe to Asia, caused by supply restraints from the world’s top producers, and that’s poised to shutter factories and boost power bills. While there is no single reason for the shortage — things like customer demand, technical problems and a lack of investment are all playing a part — the crisis is threatening to spread to more nations and upend the global economic recovery.
The price of natural gas and coal, used to power factories and heat homes, has surged to multi-year highs as the post-pandemic rebound collides with supply constraints in the run-up to the Northern Hemisphere winter.
The crisis has forced some fertilizer producers in Europe to reduce output, while Chinese power grids are rationing supplies to factories, which will curb production. What’s worrying is that it isn’t even cold yet. Energy consumption usually peaks when frigid temperatures boost demand for heating.
Already, China is looking to adopt measures to try to cool sky-high coal prices and ease its own power shortage, while utilities around the world are working tirelessly to try to secure more fuel supplies.
Key Coverage
Why China Is Facing a Power Crunch and What It Means
Europe’s Energy Crisis Is Coming for the Rest of the World, Too
Why U.K. Gas Suppliers Are Going Bust, and Who Pays
By The Numbers
1,300% The surge in European benchmark natural gas futures since May 2020
$100 per million British thermal units Natural gas in Asia and Europe could surge to this price in the event of a particularly cold winter, or roughly a four-fold increase from current levels, according to Citigroup
2017 The year China’s seasonal coal inventories were last at such a low level, according to Morgan Stanley
Why It Matters
Even a normally cold winter in the Northern Hemisphere is expected to exacerbate the shortage and drive up energy prices across the world. Since the world runs on fuel and electricity, the energy crisis threatens to touch every corner of the global economy, squeezing supply chains and even increasing food prices, all of which means a jump in inflation.
In a worst case scenario, Europe could face blackouts and China’s industrial users, including chip makers and aluminum smelters, may shut factories, with repercussions echoing around the globe. Economies that can’t afford the fuel — such as Pakistan or Bangladesh — could simply grind to a halt.
A crisis that’s largely playing out in industries could soon spread to the political arena, as higher utility bills and the price of goods could trigger public unrest. Lower hydroelectric power output in Brazil, for example, has forced the nation to increase dependence of pricey natural gas, boosting power bills for households, which could hurt President Jair Bolsonaro’s chances in next year’s election.
-
Nuclear is completely uneconomic, compared to declining cost technologies like renewables.
Storage for excess renewable generation is now available at falling costs because of the battery revolution.
No private sector investor will touch it, unless it receives massive subsidies from the public purse.
The guaranteed price for Hinkley point power is way above the market rate strike price for offshore wind and solar, both of which are falling.
Reliance on nuclear means much higher prices for consumers than the alternatives, which makes fuel poverty more of an issue.
Nuclear only contributes 15% to our daily demand, so we're hardly reliant on it.
-
SM,
The point is that some argue we should renew the UK nuclear capacity, but the economics is against this.
I assume you mean that 15% of UK energy is from domestic nuclear capacity.
We have also previously imported electricity from Cap De La Hage in Normandy to boost domestic supply.
-
My point is more around why we aren't seriously looking at developing it and making it cheaper. We could push r&d heavily in the energy sector and pioneer technology, or we could rely on the French to provide it poorly?
-
Pud,
The levelised cost of energy index shows nuclear to be a rising cost industry, at a time when renewable costs are falling.
Here is a summary from Prof Dave Elliot;
https://renewextraweekly.blogspot.com/2021/09/energy-economics-fiddling-with-figures.html
The difference between the two is rising, and the new "Contacts for Difference" auction in December will widen the cost gap.
-
In the not to distant future as solar panels improve in efficiency, almost every dwelling/factory (as selby pointed out) will have them on their roofs plus a back up battery.
panel efficiency
https://www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/most-efficient-solar-panels
-
Albie,
As I understand it, the largest battery storage power plants are only cable of releasing relatively short bursts of power, a few minutes or an hour or so.
How far are we off having battery storage plants that might provide long lasting high levels of energy similar to what a natural gas fired powerstation might?
-
RD, this battery cost $100m and has paid for itself pretty much
https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/
''South Australia’s Tesla ‘Big Battery’ saved consumers $116 million in electricity costs last year''
https://www.startupdaily.net/2020/03/south-australias-tesla-big-battery-saved-consumers-116-million-in-electricity-costs-last-year/
-
RD, this battery cost $100m and has paid for itself pretty much
https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/
''South Australia’s Tesla ‘Big Battery’ saved consumers $116 million in electricity costs last year''
https://www.startupdaily.net/2020/03/south-australias-tesla-big-battery-saved-consumers-116-million-in-electricity-costs-last-year/
Yes but Wikipedia reckons that can supply 30 MW for 3 hours, which wouldn't go very far to meeting the UK energy needs if the natural gas was unaffordable. And that's just about the largest battery farm in the world isn't it?
-
The battery meets the short term needs + 95% of the time, time enough to correct whatever is wrong, more than time enough to start up a standby gas turbine if required but agreed nowhere near enough to start a coal fired plant up.
-
Albie,
As I understand it, the largest battery storage power plants are only cable of releasing relatively short bursts of power, a few minutes or an hour or so.
How far are we off having battery storage plants that might provide long lasting high levels of energy similar to what a natural gas fired powerstation might?
RD,
I don't know where you got that information from, so it is difficult to comment.
EV batteries hold charge and do not deplete quickly, so stationary uses would have the same characteristics if deployed at sufficient scale.
Other methods of holding energy are possible, but I do not the economics of their use.
Battery storage costs are falling dramatically, and going forward off-shore wind is likely to pair with storage capacity;
https://renews.biz/72674/storage-market-to-add-30gw-a-year-by-2030/
The issue is having sufficient holding capacity to meet dispatchable demand. Part of that capacity is the reserve held by take up of EV, which will increase sharply in the near future.
Battery technology is moving fast, with solid state chemistries about to enter the field.
It is hard to know how quickly electrification will displace gas as the primary energy source across a number of sectors....home heating for example.
Without that information, and the extent to which decentralised generation will become a factor, it is a challenge to estimate mid term storage requirements for a specific facility.
-
Albie,
It requires quite a bit of faith to believe the new tech, EV fleet and so on is all going to be coming along fast enough.
As it is were heavily reliant on natural gas, which is rapidly looking much less reliable.
More Nuclear energy would have been useful to us now but it's going to take a decade or more to get anything new built.
I wonder if knocking down Eggborough was such a great idea?
-
From the Telegraph: Blackouts next.
National Grid: Greater risk of blackouts this winter
There's a concerning warning coming from the National Grid this morning, which says Britain is facing a greater threat of blackouts this winter.
National Grid’s electricity system operator (ESO) believes supply will meet demand - but has cut its forecast of buffer supply.
The UK is facing supply constraints after a major fire knocked out a key cable bringing electricity from France, while demand is also growing.
It comes amid record high energy prices, which have already cause nine suppliers to go bust.
-
From the Gurdian.
Dale Vince, founder of green energy supplier Ecotricity, has accused the UK government of “killing energy companies right now” through the retail price cap.
Vince told Radio 4’s Today programme that the government should either let energy be a free market, or nationalise it.
Vince explained that the price cap means companies are being forced to sell power and gas for a lower price than they can buy on the wholesale market. That’s why 12 have gone out of business this year.
He said:
It doesn’t make sense to have a retail price cap but not a wholesale one.
Fifty percent of Britain’s gas today comes from the North Sea, our North Sea. Those operators’ cost of operation has not gone up, but they’re selling their gas at five times what they did in January.
They’re making billions, while the government resists the natural ability of energy companies to put their prices up to stay in business, in order to save consumers from, basically, world events.
Vince argues that it’s “illogical” to hold prices at one end of the supply chain and not the other end, and the natural consequence is companies going out of business.
He's dead right but I think the conclusion to draw is that in the circumstances, where it's difficult to impose a wholesale price cap... We'd be better served by a nationalised industry.
-
I'm just watching a prog showing visitors to a town that served Chernobyl they get 70,000 visitors a year and guides are spending up to 22 a days a month there.
Not sure why you'd want to see an abandoned town, it's like Melbourne in lockdown, but dangerous.
-
Pud,
The levelised cost of energy index shows nuclear to be a rising cost industry, at a time when renewable costs are falling.
Here is a summary from Prof Dave Elliot;
https://renewextraweekly.blogspot.com/2021/09/energy-economics-fiddling-with-figures.html
The difference between the two is rising, and the new "Contacts for Difference" auction in December will widen the cost gap.
It is interesting this, very interesting. We have a clear issue don't we that we need some form of backup to renewables get struggle to meet climate and cost targets to do so.
-
Or go the other low tech way and insulate homes and businesses. There must quite a few areas of where large accumulated gains can be made. Increased use of public transport etc
-
There is a basic confusion between ENERGY and ELECTRICITY in this thread.
They are not the same.
https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix
Gas is about 24% of the UK Energy mix. The increased cost of gas can only be mitigated by finding new supply sources, or Treasury intervention via consumer price support.
https://ourworldindata.org/electricity-mix
Change the settings on the graphics to UK from World.
Longer term, the UK can move some of the gas consumption to electricity from renewable sources. Home heating is a good example, where heat pumps can replace gas boilers.
A heat pump multiplies each unit of input so that it provides 3 or 4 times the output. Basically, it is a fridge in reverse. The downside is the extra cost of installation, which needs to reduce.
As Sydney says, insulation of homes is a pre-requisite. The people disrupting roads around London have a point, although their tactics are dubious.
-
Stock up on candles. High risk of blackouts this winter reading numerous reports today.
-
Or go the other low tech way and insulate homes and businesses. There must quite a few areas of where large accumulated gains can be made. Increased use of public transport etc
If public transport is shite though people aren't going to use it. In the UK it's shite, unreliable and in some cases, expensive.
-
Free for us OAPs
-
Free for us OAPs
Yep, I have my bus pass too.
Only use it a couple of times a year though.
-
Free for us OAPs
Yeah but the idea is to get working people using it.
-
Or go the other low tech way and insulate homes and businesses. There must quite a few areas of where large accumulated gains can be made. Increased use of public transport etc
If public transport is shite though people aren't going to use it. In the UK it's shite, unreliable and in some cases, expensive.
Absolutely. It would cost me £4.70 to get 2 buses to work and take 45 minutes at least. It's a 15 minute drive costing me £1 a day in electric. No brainer. That's before car sharing is considered.
-
Public transport should be frequent reliable and free.
-
The latest battery chemistry out of the traps for storage is iron flow;
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-30/iron-battery-breakthrough-could-eat-lithium-s-lunch
A very competitive field, so other tech will put pressure on prices in future.
This is the way energy markets will move.
It does not provide direct relief for a gas shortage this winter, unfortunately.
-
''‘Lightbulb moment’: the battery technology invented in a Brisbane garage that is going global
Dominic Spooner’s startup Vaulta is working on a reusable battery casing to create less waste and a lighter product''
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/18/lightbulb-moment-the-battery-technology-invented-in-a-brisbane-garage-that-is-going-global
-
Money, the mother of invention
''Batteries of the future set to be cheaper and better — just by adding sugar''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-09-14/batteries-lithium-sulfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492
''Australian aluminium-ion battery breakthrough
Faster charging, greener and more reliable battery cells could lead to EV revolution''
https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/australian-aluminium-ion-battery-breakthrough-129973/
-
Drax is the UK’s biggest producer of CO2 burning biomass, but it’s not included in the UK emmision figures and is considered Carbon Nuetral, it was/ is all a big con to dump UK coal
https://news.sky.com/story/climate-change-draxs-renewable-energy-plant-is-uks-biggest-co2-emitter-analysis-claims-12428130
-
We have an infinitesimal amount of power from the sun. Limitless.
Based on Elon musks theory, we could power the whole of the uk with a big enough farm. He claims the USA could be powered with a farm 100 mile sq. and with a battery 1 mile sq. scale this down to uk size and this is very feasible.
-
We have an infinitesimal amount of power from the sun. Limitless.
Based on Elon musks theory, we could power the whole of the uk with a big enough farm. He claims the USA could be powered with a farm 100 mile sq. and with a battery 1 mile sq. scale this down to uk size and this is very feasible.
And what is the most likely reason this is not going to happen, if it's the same as Oz it's the fossil fuel lobby, spoon feeding both sides of politics with piles of money to maintain the status quo.
-
You can't blame Francis Rossi!
-
Or Alan Lancaster ............... now
-
Or go the other low tech way and insulate homes and businesses. There must quite a few areas of where large accumulated gains can be made. Increased use of public transport etc
If public transport is shite though people aren't going to use it. In the UK it's shite, unreliable and in some cases, expensive.
First bus from West Butterwick to Donny leaves at 0928 arriving at 1045. Last bus back leaves Donny at 1200 noon. Case closed. Ha ha.
-
Drax is the UK’s biggest producer of CO2 burning biomass, but it’s not included in the UK emmision figures and is considered Carbon Nuetral, it was/ is all a big con to dump UK coal
https://news.sky.com/story/climate-change-draxs-renewable-energy-plant-is-uks-biggest-co2-emitter-analysis-claims-12428130
Drax is the UK’s biggest producer of CO2 burning biomass, but it’s not included in the UK emmision figures and is considered Carbon Nuetral, it was/ is all a big con to dump UK coal
https://news.sky.com/story/climate-change-draxs-renewable-energy-plant-is-uks-biggest-co2-emitter-analysis-claims-12428130
Yeah, I think burning biomass is a con. How long will it take those trees to regrow and recapture all that carbon? Can we be sure the Canadians will remain commited to regrowing the forests 20 or 30 years down the line? And might climate change impact how effectively those forests grow, if its warner and a lot drier for instance, the forests might become more susceptible to forest fires.
-
Here is an analysis of the energy crisis, entitled: Europe’s soaring gas prices: does Russia hold solution to crisis?
The natural gas market has entered uncharted territory. The movements in the price of gas on Wednesday had been, in the words of one analyst, “unprecedented since the year dot of gas liberalisation in Europe”. In record swings, Dutch wholesale gas, a European benchmark, soared by 30% within one period of three or four hours from an already eye-watering level.
These are chilling numbers for European governments with winter stretching ahead, and when the EU sneezes, the UK, heavily reliant on imports from across the Channel, also catches a cold.
The shortage was caused by a confluence of events around the world, as economies emerged power hungry from their pandemic slowdowns. At the centre of the storm is Russia. While it supplies only 1% of UK gas, Russia is the biggest supplier to Europe, accounting for roughly 40% of all EU gas. And a squeeze on European gas volumes leads to price hikes in the UK and beyond...
“While Russia has been technically fulfilling its contractual obligations with the west, it has not been interested in capitalising on the high demand to send additional gas to its European clients. It is the only country that could really ease the pressure on the prices and has decided not to,” said Maria Shagina, a postdoctoral fellow at the University of Zurich, who focuses on energy politics.
-
Maybe the west shouldn't be arseholes with Russia all the time?
-
There is a basic confusion between ENERGY and ELECTRICITY in this thread.
They are not the same.
https://ourworldindata.org/energy-mix
Gas is about 24% of the UK Energy mix. The increased cost of gas can only be mitigated by finding new supply sources, or Treasury intervention via consumer price support.
https://ourworldindata.org/electricity-mix
Change the settings on the graphics to UK from World.
Longer term, the UK can move some of the gas consumption to electricity from renewable sources. Home heating is a good example, where heat pumps can replace gas boilers.
A heat pump multiplies each unit of input so that it provides 3 or 4 times the output. Basically, it is a fridge in reverse. The downside is the extra cost of installation, which needs to reduce.
As Sydney says, insulation of homes is a pre-requisite. The people disrupting roads around London have a point, although their tactics are dubious.
Heat pumps are not a straight forward replacement for gas fired boilers.
The cost alone is a major disincentive, but when you factor in the low flow temperatures, the difficulty in heating domestic hot water and having to replace all your radiators for much larger ones to supply the same level of heat they are not going to catch on very easily.
However heat pumps for new build coupled with hydronic underfloor heating is a good solution.
Most boilers in the UK will need to be converted to run on hydrogen.
-
SM,
I agree with the point about the difficulties of replacing gas boilers with heat pumps, and certainly all new build should include ground source heat pumps.
Your last comment about hydrogen is well off the mark, IMO.
It is not a matter of converting existing gas boilers alone.
Over the next 10 years, hydrogen can only play a small role. See point 4 in this twitter thread from Jan Rosenow on UK possibilities;
https://twitter.com/janrosenow/status/1427512726985879553
Introducing hydrogen into existing networks is a costly operation itself.
See this piece signed by leading academics on the use of hydrogen;
https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/hydrogen-for-heating-and-road-transport-is-not-efficient-and-does-not-make-economic-sense/2-1-1069478
The box at the bottom of the article summarises some of the difficulties!
-
Albie, I’m not sure that ground source heat pumps will be the norm for typical new build properties.
A standard ground source installation generally requires two and a half times as much land as the square footage of the house.
So a 1500sq.ft house requires 3750sq.ft of available land.
Given that a regular new build give about as much garden needed to swing a cat then ground source heating isn’t a realistic option.
Some other ground conditions and the presence of trees can also have an effect and should be taken into consideration.
Air source heat pumps on the other hand would be a better alternative.
-
How effectively are air pumps?
I was lead to believe ground pumps are much better.
Either way our insulation has got to improve a lot.
-
break it back even betterer
-
How effectively are air pumps?
I was lead to believe ground pumps are much better.
Either way our insulation has got to improve a lot.
My next door neighbour had air source installed about 18 months ago and he rates it highly.
His wife was ill throughout last winter and he had the heating on 24/7 for four months and told me his overall energy bills were still quite a bit less than they had been in the previous winter.
One of my ex customers is a specialist air source and ground source installer and says that ground source is better but lack of land space restricts where it can be utilised.
-
Ground source HP are better, but difficult to add after construction.
That is why I said for new build, so you do the excavation and pipework before construction proper.
Rather than for single properties, developers could provide for a number of houses on a new estate, for example.
Air Source HP are the best retrofit to existing housing stock, but are more costly than a gas boiler.
If you factor in the savings on energy bills when running, you get your money back, but you need to have the purchase price up front.
Some form of subsidy scheme is likely, if the UK is serious about moving on from fossil fuels.
I reckon there will be an announcement soon, before the climate talks in Glasgow.