Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: SydneyRover on October 07, 2021, 05:14:00 am
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.
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Would that be sovereignty we're talking about as i don't know what sovrenty is?
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Wrong question/answer, what is sovereignty worth if you lose freedoms and the answer is nothing, if you end up as a slave or a wage slave as the tories dismantle workers rights and many others rights what is it's worth?
They are making it difficult as possible to vote, to question the decisions the government makes, to protest, to blow the whistle on corporate and government wrongdoing and expanding the official secrets act.
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.
43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate
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You probably need to ask the people of Hong Kong or Taiwan what the value of sovereignty is.
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And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.
Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.
43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate
But it was the biggest share of those who bothered to vote.
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.
43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate
It might not be, but it's more than anyone else got and enough to win again. I think people look around themselves and imagine the rest of the country to be and think as it is around here, but it clearly isn't like that. Obviously large parts of England are more than happy to have a Conservative government.
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I've often wondered if only a minority of people know the difference between a majority and a plurality.
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And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.
Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.
On that basis are Hong Kong and Taiwan better off jacking democracy and freedom of speach in and throwing their lot in with the Chinese?
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And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.
Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.
On that basis are Hong Kong and Taiwan better off jacking democracy and freedom of speach in and throwing their lot in with the Chinese?
Same question for the Ukraine I guess, the west can only do so much to help, we have to find a way to negotiate there is no other way, I'm hoping Biden will but it won't save HK and it may not save Taiwan.
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And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.
Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.
On that basis are Hong Kong and Taiwan better off jacking democracy and freedom of speach in and throwing their lot in with the Chinese?
Same question for the Ukraine I guess, the west can only do so much to help, we have to find a way to negotiate there is no other way, I'm hoping Biden will but it won't save HK and it may not save Taiwan.
Not sure about Bonanza but the bundle of sticks representing strength through unity was the Fasces, symbol of Mussolinis Facist party and where the word fascism derives.
I'm also not sure if it wasn't Ghengis Khan who first used the analogy. He wasn't a very nice chap either.
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You may not like it RD but the UK will be hitching her skirts up and asking the EU for more pencils of the balloon goes up.
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You may not like it RD but the UK will be hitching her skirts up and asking the EU for more pencils of the balloon goes up.
It is possible to act in a common cause with allied nations without actually becoming part of a pan European political union.
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You may not like it RD but the UK will be hitching her skirts up and asking the EU for more pencils of the balloon goes up.
When the EU contributes to defence half as much as this country let me know. We have a whole bunch of dead service people to prove it.
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I've often wondered if only a minority of people know the difference between a majority and a plurality.
Do you know the difference between plurality and puerility?
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"43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate"
Perhaps you can tell us when was the last time any government had over 50% of the electorate ?
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.
43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate
But it was the biggest share of those who bothered to vote.
Did anyone say any different?
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
But as proved over and over again the majority of the electorate don't want the Conservatives out.
43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate
But it was the biggest share of those who bothered to vote.
Did anyone say any different?
Did I say they had.
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Can I ask how many seats in The House of Commons the Conservatives won with 43.6% of the vote, and how many the losers won with the rest? I always thought the most number of seats a party won formed the government.
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And we come the full circle, strength in numbers, a united EU sends a very strong message to Russia, China and any other state that has expansion ideas.
Like Bonanza where Ben the father tells Hoss and little Joe that a bunch of pencils is much stronger than just one.
We have strength in numbers through NATO.
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Can I ask how many seats in The House of Commons the Conservatives won with 43.6% of the vote, and how many the losers won with the rest? I always thought the most number of seats a party won formed the government.
You are correct, but 43.6% is still not the majority of the electorate, no matter how you try to dress it up
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Still not answered my question Filo
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"43.6% vote share is not the majority of the electorate"
Perhaps you can tell us when was the last time any government had over 50% of the electorate ?
I can’t tell you that, but my point still remains the same regarding the original statement made by Axholme Lion, but what I will add is that 56.7% of the people that voted did not vote for a Tory Govt, so however way you want to dress it up a majority of people didn’t vote for them, they are in power because of our out dated FPTP system
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That's correct Filo it's the system we have in the UK. Having said that you have to go back to about 1930 for the last time a party polled over 50 % of the votes cast. To change the system would mean a proportional representation system and would probably mean a series if not permanent coalition Governments'
Which party in government is going to initiate that. Bit like turkeys voting for xmas !!
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Bang on Welling. FPTP has never been questioned when Labour won a GE has it.
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The first Labour majority government was elected in 1945.
The highest share of the vote received by Labour in a general election was 48.8% in 1951, when the Conservatives won the most seats despite polling fewer votes. Labour’s worst general election performance of the post-war years was in 1983, with 27.6% of the vote and 209 seats.
In 1997, Labour’s 418 seats were the highest ever number for a single party.
In 2019, Labour won 202 seats, their lowest number since 1935.
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The first Labour majority government was elected in 1945.
The highest share of the vote received by Labour in a general election was 48.8% in 1951, when the Conservatives won the most seats despite polling fewer votes. Labour’s worst general election performance of the post-war years was in 1983, with 27.6% of the vote and 209 seats.
In 1997, Labour’s 418 seats were the highest ever number for a single party.
In 2019, Labour won 202 seats, their lowest number since 1935.
Yep and labours proportion of the votes in 1997 was 43.2%.
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Personally, I've always supported having a proper PR system. The current system is an outrage against the very concept of democracy. It gives all but untrammeled power to whoever can get 40-ish percent of the vote, or sometimes not even that. Even if that delivers my ideal Government, it is absolutely indefensible.
If there was a serious mass movement in the country for PR, I'd be on the streets demonstrating at every opportunity.
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Johnathon Freedland reminds us of it's fragility ...... in the wrong hands.
''If this wasn’t us, how would we describe it? If this was Viktor Orbán’s Hungary, or Poland, what language might we use? Would an announcer on the BBC World Service declare: “Amid fuel and food shortages, the government has moved to cement its grip on power. It’s taking action against the courts, shrinking their ability to hold the ruling party to account, curbing citizens’ right to protest and imposing new rules that would gag whistleblowers and sharply restrict freedom of the press. It’s also moving against election monitors while changing voting rules, which observers say will hurt beleaguered opposition groups … ”''
''It doesn’t sound like us. We like to tell ourselves that we live in a mature democracy, our institutions deep rooted. Political competition is brisk, never more so than at this time of year, as one party conference ends and another begins. This is not a one-party state. All it would require is Labour to get its act together – to which end it made a decent start this week – and, with a fair wind, the Conservatives would be out''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/oct/01/boris-johnson-rigging-the-system-power-courts-protest-elections
And thus do people in this thead prove Freedland wrong as they are not interested in sovereignty or even fairness - just their side winning. However that is achieved.
I once again refer you to the Holocaust Museum's leaflet on the warning signs of fascism:
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If they used pr in the last election thou tories could have had 83 more seats than Labour yet Labour and Lib Dem's could be in power is that really fair?
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I know of a few people who would think so bpool.
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Personally, I've always supported having a proper PR system. The current system is an outrage against the very concept of democracy. It gives all but untrammeled power to whoever can get 40-ish percent of the vote, or sometimes not even that. Even if that delivers my ideal Government, it is absolutely indefensible.
If there was a serious mass movement in the country for PR, I'd be on the streets demonstrating at every opportunity.
would you agree that the boundaries favour Labour? If so in the interest of fairness would you be on the streets supporting that?
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Hey bp, while you're here, pud is looking for a rusted on tory supporter to solve the problems of the UK.
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If they used pr in the last election thou tories could have had 83 more seats than Labour yet Labour and Lib Dem's could be in power is that really fair?
They would have only been in power because more people voted for the those two parties than voted Tory. The Tories were quite happy to share power with the Lib Dems when that coalition suited them.
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I know of a few people who would think so bpool.
The Labour Party have principles Hound but if you don't like them they have others .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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I know of a few people who would think so bpool.
The Labour Party have principles Hound but if you don't like them they have others .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I would have thought you were more au fait with the tories myself tyke :woohoo:
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If they used pr in the last election thou tories could have had 83 more seats than Labour yet Labour and Lib Dem's could be in power is that really fair?
Of course it is because more people voted for Labour plus the LDs in that Election. EDIT: My mistake. I thought you were talking about the 1983 Election. Actually, you and I are both wrong here. Labour and the LDs only won 40% of the vote in the last election, so they could not have formed a majority under PR and in fact would have had fewer seats combined than the Tories. So it's a pointless example.
Put it another way, is it fair that the Tories had a 144 seat majority when they only won 43% of the vote in the 1983 Election? Or Labour had a 191 seat majority on 43% of the vote in 1997?
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And of course I do realise it's pointless me saying this when so many contributors in here have already decided what other people think.
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I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .
None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .
It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .
More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .
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I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .
None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .
It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .
More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .
There was no realistic way there could have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.
Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...
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I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .
None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .
It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .
More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .
There was no realistic way there could have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.
Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...
Aye it's always the left isn't it ?
A middle class party and voters telling us what we should think and how we should vote .
It's not worked out too well thus far has it ?
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I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .
None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .
It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .
More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .
There was no realistic way there could have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.
Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...
Aye it's always the left isn't it ?
A middle class party and voters telling us what we should think and how we should vote .
It's not worked out too well thus far has it ?
What a strange person you are tyke, sneering because you assume centrist means 'middle class'
All those red wall voters are now suddenly upper class are they?
I think there may be a cure for 'jilted lover' syndrome, ask around on the forum a few appear to have it.
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I don't particularly think FPTP is the fairest way by any means .
None the less it's a system Labour should still have the capability to win under as they have before .
It only seems to be an issue when they don't win .
More to the point is that in hung parliament situations such as 2010 and 2017 nobody wants to work with them to form a government .
There was no realistic way there could have been a Labour led coalition in 2010. The numbers just didn't stack up.
Of course, if a couple of hundred thousand folk on the Left had voted Labour rather than voting Green because Brown was no better than the Tories, and Labour had won another 10 seats, then yes a Lab/LD coalition would have been a distinct possibility. And then we wouldn't have f**ked the country through Austerity. But principles...
Aye it's always the left isn't it ?
A middle class party and voters telling us what we should think and how we should vote .
It's not worked out too well thus far has it ?
What a strange person you are tyke, sneering because you assume centrist means 'middle class'
All those red wall voters are now suddenly upper class are they?
I think there may be a cure for 'jilted lover' syndrome, ask around on the forum a few appear to have it.
You can only be a jilted lover if you were a lover to begin with Syd of which I'm not .
It's pretty much a solid fact that the Labour Party is more middle class than it's working class so let's at least find some common ground .
The problem is the middle class do not understand the working class mind .
Can't understand Brexit , can't understand the red wall flipping to the Tories .
It's a metropolitan bubble that at least in my opinion not only doesn't understand it doesn't want to understand it and sneers at it instead .
Aint in those circumstances is anybody going to even give you the time of day never mind vote for you .
How many times does the centre need to grasp economically to the left and culturally to the right ? .
Nobody cares about migrants and what ever issues they have in working class communities , they couldn't give a feck .
It's probably not what you want to hear but that's the reality .
The working class are right wing culturally and like or not that's the truth .
I'd even go as far as to say right wing culture is actually more important than left economics in working class areas .
I ain't say it's right or wrong I'm saying it's reality .
Labour would be better placed to deal in reality and forget about the old red wall if it seeks government because it ain't coming back to them anytime soon .
They'd be better placed to stand on a joining the free market ticket with the EU .
Coming up with solutions that lead to greater production and better wages , it's neo-con approach isn't going to work with folk like me .
Play to the electorate that's more receptive you ain't a chance getting the likes of me onside or the red wall .
The party left the red wall it wasn't ever the other way around .
Johnson is fecking you 7 days till Sunday on economically to the left and culture to the right .
Of course it's rhetoric but that's where the space is and he's got it sown up .
Almost everyone is an EU fanatic within the Labour Party so make the case then .
But then you did vote for this deal but rejected the Corbyn and Ken Clarke proposal !!!
So whether you like it or not this shyte show is owned by you and Keith too .
When the Labour Party gets around to electing a leader with a pair and credibility too .
It may actually become relevant .
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If that's your car blocking the driveway please move it now.
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Tyke just out of interest what is YOUR definition of Working Class and Middle Class
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Hello, you have reach the Karl Marx centre for excellence, sorry to keep you waiting we are quite busy right now.
If your call is an emergency please hang up now and ring your local furniture repair shop,
Armchairs R Us.
Please press 1 for a philosophical argument
Press 2 for advice on how to get your 'man' elected.
Press 3 for advice on retirement matters.
Press 4 for tripe recipes.
Press 5 for all other matters or hold on while we find someone to solve your problems for you.
If that's your car blocking the driveway please move it now.
……..and this poster calls others strange.
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nowt so queer as foke, hound, aye
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Hello, you have reach the Karl Marx centre for excellence, sorry to keep you waiting we are quite busy right now.
If your call is an emergency please hang up now and ring your local furniture repair shop,
Armchairs R Us.
Please press 1 for a philosophical argument
Press 2 for advice on how to get your 'man' elected.
Press 3 for advice on retirement matters.
Press 4 for tripe recipes.
Press 5 for all other matters or hold on while we find someone to solve your problems for you.
If that's your car blocking the driveway please move it now.
……..and this poster calls others strange.
Unfortunately Hound it's all they have .
No ideas and completely clueless as to how to break out and free themselves from the Tories having their foot on their throat .
They could try the things they believe in I guess , rejoining the EU perhaps .
Only thing is they voted for Johnson's deal so good luck with the credibility on that one .
Bunter's run rings round em .
Absorb that fact .
How embarrassing does it have to get ?
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A lament from a sad old man tyke
oops missed out the bitter bit
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Back to the op, seems the Poles are asking the same question.
On Thursday, Poland's Constitutional Tribunal ruled that key articles of one of the EU's primary treaties were incompatible with Polish law, in effect rejecting the principle that EU law has primacy over national legislation in certain judicial areas.
I thought Italy would be next to topple , but it’s possible Polexit could be next.
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possible but unlikely at this point, unless you have further information NR
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I recently saw a list of Daily Express headlines from this summer alone. In various headlines, they've said the next country just about to leave the EU is (deep breath)
Ireland, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Poland, Czechia, Austria, Germany, Denmark and Sweden.
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Yep, you can just imagine the people of EU countries having a look at the UK and thinking mmmmm must get ourselves some of that.