Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: River Don on October 24, 2021, 07:00:12 pm
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So the government give you five grand towards replacing your gas boiler.
Apparently though that's only half the cost of a pump. Then you're going to need new plumbing, bigger radiators, lots of insulation.
And then after spending all that, it costs about the same as a gas boiler to run. Or perhaps you could fork out some more for solar panels to help bring the cost down.
And you've got to be really careful about getting qualified people to do it, there are many stories of cold houses and very expensive running costs.
I want to try and be green but I don't think I can afford this. I'll be sticking with the gas boiler for as long as I can. There's more scope for insulating our house, I think that's where I'm investing.
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Yes, insulation is the first thing to consider, whatever system you use.
The support for heat pumps at £5k is a one off lump sum.
Under the renewable heating grant previously it was up to £7k, paid in instalments each year.
The government strategy assumes that 200,000 of the installations will be in new build...about a third of the take up. I reckon it will be more to new build, because it does not make sense to install systems which are about to be phased out.
Keep in mind that they also plan to move price support from gas to electricity, so over time the cost of running a gas boiler will increase relative to the alternatives.
The whole package assumes that the cost of heat pumps will fall quickly, like with solar and wind.
Maybe, or maybe not!
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It makes sense for new builds, they can put in the underground pipes for ground source heat, they can build with underfloor heating in mind, get the insulation up to scratch and put solar panels in.
In fact it should be happening already, except the builders successfully lobbied George Osbourne to put it all off. Greenest government ever? That was Cameron's promise...
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I wonder how much scope there is to bring the cost of heat pump heating systems down? It's not new tech like a solar panel.
I suppose economies of scale might come in but a big radiator isn't going to get any cheaper. Tearing up flooring to get at pipes isn't going to get cheaper. Digging up gardens won't get cheaper.
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Lets face it, which class of person has the amount of land required and is likely and able to afford the upgrade? Money for mates again IMHO
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Couldn't agree more Raven.
It really is a give away to those with £10, £15, £20 grand to spare.
The original plan of subsidising insulation was much more egalitarian and much more likely to be taken up widely, which was why it was scrapped.
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My Labour supporting neighbour installed a heat pump not so long ago.
I don’t think he will be classed at “a mate” of the government.
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Do you know how much it cost him hound?
And do you have any idea what the running costs are?
I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.
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Do you know how much it cost him hound?
And do you have any idea what the running costs are?
I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.
He told me that the whole job came in at around £14,000.
He now doesn’t have any gas going into the house and everything, including cooking, runs off electric.
His wife has been poorly for quite some time now and he said that although he had the heating on 24/7 last winter, his energy bill was still considerably less than it had been the previous winter.
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Interesting Hound.
Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?
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Interesting Hound.
Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?
It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.
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Interesting Hound.
Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?
It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.
Probably not a bad spec then. I'm in a 1970s house (the kind of thing Bob Ferris bought in The Likely Lads) it needs work.
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The cost is going to vary depending upon whether you already have underfloor heating, and a hot water tank etc.
If you have solar, then the leccy to run the heat pump is cheaper than chips during the day.
A big if is how quickly government move support from gas to electricity. A new gas boiler could be a mistake if the unit cost rises year by year, while electricity stays the same.
General guide here from the Energy Saving Trust;
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/what-is-a-heat-pump-and-why-are-they-important/
It sounds like RD might need to retrofit insulation first, but Hound is good to go if next door is a guide.
One thing to consider is if you are staying put.....not a lot of point if you plan to move soonish!
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''n fact, much of the data seems to suggest that UK properties experience even more of a value increase than homes in America. ... Plus, according to Greenlancer, not only do homes with solar panels generally sell for more money, but they have historically sold faster than homes without panels.6 Oct 2021''
''Solar Panels Affect Your Property's Value? | The Eco Experts''
cannot speak to the accuracy of this.
https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/property-value#:~:text=In%20fact%2C%20much%20of%20the,increase%20than%20homes%20in%20America.&text=Plus%2C%20according%20to%20Greenlancer%2C%20not,faster%20than%20homes%20without%20panels.
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The cost is going to vary depending upon whether you already have underfloor heating, and a hot water tank etc.
If you have solar, then the leccy to run the heat pump is cheaper than chips during the day.
A big if is how quickly government move support from gas to electricity. A new gas boiler could be a mistake if the unit cost rises year by year, while electricity stays the same.
General guide here from the Energy Saving Trust;
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/what-is-a-heat-pump-and-why-are-they-important/
It sounds like RD might need to retrofit insulation first, but Hound is good to go if next door is a guide.
One thing to consider is if you are staying put.....not a lot of point if you plan to move soonish!
Albie, my house and my neighbours house are nothing like each other.
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Fair enough, Hound.
I did say "if", cos I am not to know!
I forgot to say Octopus Energy are saying that they will have AS heat pumps at the same price as gas boilers when the grant becomes available in April.
I will wait and see on that!
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Interesting Hound.
Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?
It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.
Probably not a bad spec then. I'm in a 1970s house (the kind of thing Bob Ferris bought in The Likely Lads) it needs work.
How's Thelma?
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Fair enough, Hound.
I did say "if", cos I am not to know!
I forgot to say Octopus Energy are saying that they will have AS heat pumps at the same price as gas boilers when the grant becomes available in April.
I will wait and see on that!
Interesting.
I was a Plumbers Merchant before I retired and heat pumps were just beginning to come to the fore.
As you know, way more expensive than gas boilers, even the better ones like Vaillant.
I am with Octopus so I will keep an eye on what you have said.
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Here is what Octopus are saying;
https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1508461/octopus-energy-heat-and-buildings-strategy-boris-johnson-kwasi-kwarteng-cop26
The section on their website was written in May, before the new scheme was announced;
https://octopus.energy/blog/heat-pumps/
It might be just PR bluster!
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Do you know how much it cost him hound?
And do you have any idea what the running costs are?
I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.
He told me that the whole job came in at around £14,000.
He now doesn’t have any gas going into the house and everything, including cooking, runs off electric.
His wife has been poorly for quite some time now and he said that although he had the heating on 24/7 last winter, his energy bill was still considerably less than it had been the previous winter.
Labour supporter or not bet he must have a bob or two
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Interesting Hound.
Is his house new and well insulated or an older property?
It is about a 20 years old property.
If anyone nicks his washing this week you are going to be the prime suspect.
Probably not a bad spec then. I'm in a 1970s house (the kind of thing Bob Ferris bought in The Likely Lads) it needs work.
How's Thelma?
She seems fine. Getting on a bit now. I genuinely know this because I saw her a few weeks ago shopping in our local big Sainsbury's.
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Do you know how much it cost him hound?
And do you have any idea what the running costs are?
I'm genuinely interested because I don't know anyone who has done this.
He told me that the whole job came in at around £14,000.
He now doesn’t have any gas going into the house and everything, including cooking, runs off electric.
His wife has been poorly for quite some time now and he said that although he had the heating on 24/7 last winter, his energy bill was still considerably less than it had been the previous winter.
Labour supporter or not bet he must have a bob or two
He will have but some people seem to think that only people who support the other lot have money.
Money for mates etc, and it isn’t aimed at just you by the way Raven.
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British Gas now matching Octopus on the installation of heat pumps, according to the Torygraph;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/16/british-gas-kicks-price-war-heat-pumps/
Looking a good option if you need to renew your system, even better with the solar providing the leccy.
I wonder how Hound is getting on with his.
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The cost is going to vary depending upon whether you already have underfloor heating, and a hot water tank etc.
If you have solar, then the leccy to run the heat pump is cheaper than chips during the day.
It makes sense for new builds, they can put in the underground pipes for ground source heat, they can build with underfloor heating in mind, get the insulation up to scratch and put solar panels in.
I am not up to speed at all on this - but interested. I am in a house which was a new build when I moved in 9 years ago, well insulated and underfloor heating - but run by gas. Are you suggesting switching to geothermal heating might make sense because it can be built to feed the existing underfloor heating, thus potentially saving a lot of cost?
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Dutch Uncle,
It sounds like you are well suited to an Air Source heat pump.
Contact your electricity provider to see what they can offer, if they are not yet up to speed on this, British Gas and Octopus will offer a deal.
Now BG are in the game, all the others will need to step up smartish, or miss the market growth.
I don't know if you have a south facing roof, but solar to provide the electricity for the heat pump (and the house) is worth looking at. All depending on what you think the cost of electricity is going to be going forward.
Energy Saving Trust website is a good place to look, but I don't know if NI has different rules to here.
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/
and on heat pumps specifically;
https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/energy-at-home/heating-your-home/heat-pumps/
The post from River Don is about ground source heat pumps, which make sense at the construction stage, but not really for retrofit.
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Very many thanks Albie, much appreciated. :thumbsup:
Edit: Fortunately looking at your link the air source heat pump can be at ground level (roof would be a problem). I have a west facing sheltered garden which should be good. I am very close to neighbours though, will have to check out noise. Will research. My main aim is simply to be more green, and away from gas has to be a long term goal.
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Dutch,
New models of ASHP have reduced the noise issue, manufacturers seeing it as a sales benefit.
The new Samsung quiet heat pump available from November 2022:
https://www.hpmmag.com/news/samsung-launches-new-low-noise-heat-pump
This 10 min vid from Fully Charged takes you through a beginners guide:
https://fullycharged.show/episodes/how-do-heat-pumps-work-this-is-the-future-of-heating/
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From the figures I've seen, solar power for the heat pump electricity doesn't make sense.
Typical household heating requirement is 12,000kWh per year.
The standard figure for the efficiency of heat pumps is 3, meaning 1kWh of input electric will give you 3kWh of heating.
So you will use 4000kWh per year of electric to run the pump.
At current rates that's about £1300 of electric. At the rate we expect electricity to go to in April, that would be £2000 per year.
I've had a quote for a decent sized solar electric system which would be estimated to produce 2800kWh of electricity per year. So that is already only 70% of the requirement. But it's worse than that. Most of the solar electricity production is in the warmer months of the year, when you don't need heating. The solar panels would produce very little electricity in mid winter when you really want it, and obviously none during darkness (4pm-8am in late December).
The only way I can see that it comes remotely close to making financial sense is to have a big battery installed and charge that up overnight on Economy7.
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BST,
Yes, I should have said solar with battery storage.
Very difficult to assess the cost profile on this without knowing the likely costs of electricity in the future. While installation costs are now greatly reduced, the payback period will depend on the usage pattern and the tariff rate.
With all these assessments a site visit from a professional is required.
If you are at the point of replacing a gas boiler anyway, then you do not need to swap out like for like.
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Albie.
I may be missing something fundamental here, but I just don't see how the solar aspect makes any significant impact on the overall cost of running the heat pump. It might scratch at the surface of the costs, but that's it.
I'm very much in favour of decarbonising domestic heating, but I think people need to go into this with their eyes open. I've seen several folk online hinting that a heat pump and solar electricity gives you low cost or free heating. I cannot see how that is possible, much as I'd like it to be. At best, after allowing for up front capital costs, it would be very unlikely to break even over the medium term, without a big drop in electricity prices.
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That would depend on the pattern of usage, BST.
No-one is suggesting it would be free, but it may be lower cost than the current energy provision.
Don't forget that the solar could feed the house demand in summer, for fridge freezer air conditioning and electric car for example. The net annual position is what is under consideration.
Are you selling excess back to the grid for peanuts, when you could reserve that excess for evening use? If so, what is the additional cost of sized storage?
There is no general rule to apply...how important decarbonisation is varies from person to person.
As I said, get a professional assessment.
Octopus must think that there is a value in this approach;
https://www.hvnplus.co.uk/news/octopus-energy-to-offer-solar-pv-service-alongside-heat-pump-installations-18-01-2023/
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Albie.
I get your point on using solar power in the summer, and the net position.
My point is that solar doesn't come close to providing the power you need to run a heat pump when you need to run a heat pump. There's no professional advice that can change that.
Let me give you my numbers.
Since the start of December, we've used 3000kWh of gas for heating and hot water. That's cost about £300.
If that had been supplied by a heat pump, we'd have needed about 1000kWh of electric to service it.
I haven't got solar power yet - I'm on a waiting list. But I have got a professional app that predicts, from my house location and orientation and the actual weather, what solar electricity I would be producing with the system I intend to get. It says I'd have made 92kWh since the start of December. So I'd need 900kWh of grid electric. Which, at current rates is £300.
As I say, when you need the electricity to run the pump, solar doesn't do any more than scratch the surface.
And yes, of course solar is great in the summer. But you don't need heating then. My point is that "solar" and "heat pump" are effectively two entirely separate decisions, financially.
Don't get me wrong. I'm seriously looking at both.
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BST,
Yes, installing a heat pump and installing solar are separate financial decisions, but they are linked for those looking to decarbonise.
You would not install solar specifically to run a heat pump, you choose solar to manage down your energy bills over the full range of energy uses.
Adding an ASHP will increase electricity consumption, but reduce gas consumption.
So the task is to reduce the amount of energy that needs to be bought in, at rising costs.
What is the lowest cost method of reducing energy demand, and smoothing the peaks by transferring from day to night, or interseasonally, over the lifetime of the kit?
If you can reduce the heating season by shrinking the demand in autumn and again in spring, and reduce grid supply to winter top up from a renewable provider, then a 3 season coverage might give a summer excess to be redeemed as a credit in winter.
Whether you retain that summer excess in battery storage, or with an EV as the battery, or use the grid as a back up, is an available choice.
My guess is that EV will become the energy store (so called "vehicle to grid", or VTG). "Smart charging" using different tariffs will become the norm.
Trying to second guess the way taxation and grant support will move in energy is very difficult in a market without direct public sector presence.
The £3k deal BG and Octopus offer in England is £499 in Scotland, because grant support is higher.
You are paying upfront at todays installation costs (supported) to hedge against possible rises in supply costs in the future.
The starting point is you need to know what size of heat pump the property requires.
Here is a guide:
https://www.theecoexperts.co.uk/solar-panels/solar-with-heat-pumps
The heat pump costs given here have now been overtaken by the new support offered by BG and Octopus.
Residential solar would depend on the available roof space, alongside cost.
Once people have solar, they change their behaviour, so washing machines and dishwashers are in use when you have the juice.
With bifacial solar on the move, perhaps ground mounted become more attractive to some buyers:
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/solar-panels-renewable-energy-bifacial-b2264534.html
Solar is a declining cost sector (per unit supplied), whereas electricity costs will rise again in April.
Neither political party has yet understood that the electricity supply market needs to be fully decoupled from gas supply and prices.
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It's difficult to make the decision though without any sense of understanding what future energy costs might be. I'd like solar and a heat pump but I can't justify the cost.
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Albie
I get all of what you are saying, but it's a blunderbuss response to a very specific point I'm making.
On the very link you posted, the EcoExperts say " Free solar energy can power other eco-friendly items, like heat pumps."
My point is that claims like this either clumsily or deliberately deceiving people. Solar electricity simply cannot make a significant contribution to the running costs of a heat pump, for all the reasons I've set out.
It could if and only if there was a way of storing solar electricity in July and using it in January. You ain't going to do that with an EV.
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BST,
The point of the link was to give an indication of the size of a heat pump required for different property types.
I clearly said so in post 32.
You are right to say some parts in the link are poorly written....solar is not free energy, there is the upfront cost to consider.
Obviously, if I put up a link to show a particular point, it does not mean I endorse everything in the link, that would be ridiculous.
"It could if and only if there was a way of storing solar electricity in July and using it in January. You ain't going to do that with an EV"....Billy, no-one is suggesting this!
The idea is that you retain any excess generation for personal use.
For example, transferring excess to an EV would displace energy cost from buying fuel, which gives a surplus which could offset the winter bill for electricity.
It is an alternative strategy to using the grid as sole reserve, but that is available.
I have no view on what is best for any particular case.
With a coefficient of performance of 3 or 4 to 1, you multiply the heat return on every unit of electricity consumed. Providing 25% (or more) of the electrical energy from a renewable source should be an attainable goal, whether bought in from a external supplier or self produced.
Once again, the big picture is about whole system costs, not specific elements within the wider energy supply.
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Just to digress slightly as I think you're both actually arguing the same thing and agreeing with each other, just from different angles down to how you've both interpreted the marketting...
I've had my solar panels in with a decent-sized battery and on Economy 7 for a few months now so if anybody has any questions or would like any info on it's performance or capabilities please feel free to ask. I know there are a couple of things I would have liked to have known up front, such as charge/discharge capabilities of the batteries, power generation differences summer to winter, etc etc.
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What's your payback period looking like? Everything I read suggests it is just too long.
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Just to digress slightly as I think you're both actually arguing the same thing and agreeing with each other, just from different angles down to how you've both interpreted the marketting...
I've had my solar panels in with a decent-sized battery and on Economy 7 for a few months now so if anybody has any questions or would like any info on it's performance or capabilities please feel free to ask. I know there are a couple of things I would have liked to have known up front, such as charge/discharge capabilities of the batteries, power generation differences summer to winter, etc etc.
Do you have the payback period for a battery (separate from the panel system) Ss, most of the experts here are saying that it is not worth it atm and to wait till the price drops.
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Cool, couple of different angles on payback.
BFYP's first.
At the minute I can only go on theory and the quote I got because I've not had the system in a full year to see what the actual generation numbers are in all seasons but...
The payback period on my full system was quoted as around 8/9 years - slightly longer than a lot of systems because my panels aren't south facing, it's a split east/west system, so I need more panels to generate the same as a south facing system.
Whether this is "too long" or not obviously depends on your own circumstances - I have no intentions of leaving this house for 20+ years, so it feels like a solid investment to me.
The key with quoted payback periods is to go into it with your eyes wide open and understand the assumptions they make in the quote, because they can be hugely significant. The biggies are:
- What the system will generate (obviously after a year you'll have a better idea of whether this was accurate) but you have to take it at face value to start with
- Utilisation - how much of the generation you'll use vs how much you'll export to the grid (at a, usually, much cheaper rate)
- Price you'll be paid to export (tied to the previous point and can vary wildly between suppliers at the moment)
- Energy Price Inflation
- The fact you're not on Economy 7 (or any time of use tariff - relevant if fitting a battery)
Assuming the generation numbers are accurate then the utilisation and inflation figures are critical.
With solar pricing where it is at the moment, I would expect a quoted payback of 6-9 years is assuming 70-80% utilisation and 20-30% export.
It's incredibly difficult to hit these numbers without a battery because during daylight hours in summer a lot of what you generate will go straight back to the grid. Even in winter you'll be generating more than you can use without seriously managing it, and if you're out of the house all day you've got no chance regardless of time of year. But with a decent battery system and managing your usage (as BST alluded to earlier) you can spread the usage through the day and night and get much better utilisation, paying the system off much more quickly.
Most solar quotes I've seen have an assumed energy price inflation of 8% per year. Higher energy prices obviously result in a faster payback (because each unit you generate and use saves you more off your bills). Before last year this assumption was very disingenuous in my opinion (bordering on pure sales bullshit), because the average inflation over the previous decade was 5%, and 5% compounded over a decade is vastly different to 8% compounded over the same period - so what you would have seen is that each year your savings weren't climbing by as much as the quote suggested.
But we're in a different place now with energy pricing - since I've had mine fitted prices have already gone up 25%, and will go up another 20% in April, so I've had something like 5 or 6 years of assumed inflation kick in within the first 6 months, meaning my savings will be higher than they assumed.
That, added to the fact that I've moved onto Economy 7 so I can charge my battery over night and utilise it during the day, reducing my bills even further, and that I've made some behavioural changes to take advantage of the technology, means I expect it to pay off faster than they quoted.
Obviously I'll have a better idea later in the year once I've got generation numbers for the height of summer, and I'll report back if there's interest.
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Do you have the payback period for a battery (separate from the panel system) Ss, most of the experts here are saying that it is not worth it atm and to wait till the price drops.
Hi Syd
By "separate from the panel system" do you mean having a home battery and purely charging it on a time of use tariff like Economy 7 without having solar at all, or do you mean a calculation for how long it would take to pay back a battery adding it to a solar system, so you have separate payback numbers for the battery and the panels?
If it's the former, then yeah it likely isn't worth it - or would take a LONG time to pay back, as you have to offset anything you save on a night-rate to anything you still need to use on a day-rate which would be more expensive.
Using Octopus figures as of today, the standard Yorkshire tariff is 33p/kWh, economy 7 is 43.5/18 (day/night)...so every night unit is 15p cheaper, but every day unit is roughly 10p more expensive.
If (miracle assumptions incoming) you bought a battery perfectly sized for your daily usage and could fully charge it over night - therefore never needing to use any grid power during the day, if the battery cost approx £400 per KW (not sure on the average cost at the minute) - then £400 / 0.15p saving = having to cycle your battery over 2600 times (over 7 years) to pay for itself.
In practice it's going to be much worse than that, as you aren't going to be able to completely stop yourself from using grid power during the day - it just isn't practical - so a lot of those savings will be negated if the battery isn't perfectly sized for your usage, or any of your usage peaks higher than what the battery can output (which it will if you use a kettle) and your usage will vary throughout the year so there's no such thing as perfectly sized battery..
If I've made a fundamental error in my maths there I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to correct me.
On the other hand - if it's a case of already having a solar system and wondering whether it's worth adding a battery to it - this presents a more interesting (and tricky) proposition because of the stuff I said in my last post about utilisation. Having a battery allows you to utilise more of what you generate by spreading it through the day and night, rather than exporting it back, meaning that having a battery also enables the overall system to pay itself off quicker.
But how much you save from doing this massively depends on your export rates. In this case a high export rate means a LONGER payback for a battery specifically, as the savings aren't as high - but if you're willing to use it like a tool to be managed you can do things to help with this too - at one point in December I was getting paid £1.40 per unit to export by being on an agile tariff.
Having had my system in for a few months now I wouldn't be without the battery, in all honesty.
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Sorry for the long posts there chaps - could have just said the top line numbers but got a bit carried away with the context for anybody who isn't familiar with this stuff.
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Full marks for effort Ss, I've just put a new roof on the garage which I'm hoping may see enough sun for panels as the house is too shaded. A battery would come a bit later.
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Putting the solar debate to one side, and getting back to heat pumps, here is the assessment of one who installed in earlier to replace a gas boiler;
https://foresightdk.com/why-i-replaced-my-new-gas-boiler-with-a-heat-pump/
Note this was written in 2019, and as always the tech moves on, so the cost of installation has fallen since then.
Some models now claim to be more efficient as well, offering a higher coefficient of performance than 3, which is the assumption used here.
The author is a professor working with energy efficiency at Oxford.
BBC Inside Science discussed heat pumps last night;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001h4cq
First 15 minutes.
Ps
Good point from Sydney....you don't have to do all at once, you can add to the system as you go!
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That's really useful SS.
Question from me if you don't mind. What's the peak wattage output that you get from your battery? Checking my Loop app data, we rarely use above 3kW (usually when the oven and several hob rings are on). I'm wondering if a battery would be able to service that requirement without drawing from the grid (assuming it was sufficiently charged up of course).
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Also, when charging your battery from E7, can you program that? I'm thinking that I'd want to fully charge it every night in winter, but probably not in high summer, when the solar panels would do the job.
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Why would you buy something that is at best 30% efficient, if it was an everyday item you used to do a job you would lob it over the hedge.
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Did I hear correctly this morning that E7 prices will be going up unlike standard tariffs?
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Can I just say what a good thread this is, I have learnt so much - many thanks to all contributors :thumbsup:
This board at its best
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Why would you buy something that is at best 30% efficient, if it was an everyday item you used to do a job you would lob it over the hedge.
Because wind and solar are by far the cheapest means of adding new electrical generation capacity.
Not by a small amount, by a country mile.....so if you want lower electricity prices and reduction in fuel poverty, much better than relying on Mr Putin and his gas.
Another new report on the importance of heat pumps here;
https://bregroup.com/press-releases/bre-calls-on-uk-government-to-improve-the-energy-efficiency-of-britains-homes/
All this is building up to the UK upgrading its net zero strategy in April.
Low hanging fruit, and all that!
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Why would you buy something that is at best 30% efficient, if it was an everyday item you used to do a job you would lob it over the hedge.
What on earth are you on about?
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Tell you what, I'll start a new thread for the solar questions so as to not keep derailing the discussion about heatpumps.
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Some companies are starting to offer tariffs aimed at heat pump users.
Good Energy and Octopus are first out of the traps with this;
https://www.octopusreferral.link/cosy-octopus-tariff/
With the discussion on heat pumps and solar, it might be worth considering an installer who offers both, so you get an integrated heat and power solution.
This is also helpful if you want compatible warranty and service plan arrangements.
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That Octopus plan is worth considering Albie, although I think you'd probably need 12kWh of battery storage to make it work.
We are using about 100kWh of gas each day in this cold snap. With an efficiency ratio of 4 on a heat pump, that would require 25kWh of electricity.
We use most of the gas in the morning and evening, so I could just about imagine topping up 12kWh into batteries at the cheap rates between 04:00-07:00, discharging that into the heat pump in the morning then topping up the batteries from 13:00-16:00 and using that for the heat pump in the evening.
25kWh of electric at the cheap rate is £5/day. Compared to a current £10/day to burn 100kWh of gas. So that's a big saving.
Downside to that is that would take all the cheap electric we could get. All the other electric usage in the house would be at the normal or high rate, excluding the little bit you'd get from solar at this time of year.
Definitely worth considering though. Thanks for posting that.
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It's probably even better than that, because my understanding of heat pumps is that you normally run them for longer as they run lower flow temps than a gas boiler.
So on top of what you're saying there BST, you'd likely run the heatpump at the offpeak times whilst simultaneously charging your batteries, as well as a little bit later in the day - meaning you'd need to use less of your battery storage specifically for the heating and some of it would be left over for the other household load.
You'd need to be super careful between 4-7pm though as those peak rates are a stinger, even compared to E7. But as long as you've got enough charge in the battery to cover that, which you should have if you've charged 1-4pm then it shouldn't be an issue, in theory.
If you look at this from the perspective of somebody who doesn't have solar or battery storage it's probably still a good deal IF you can avoid the peak usage 4-7pm, because the "day rate" is only marginally more expensive than a standard tariff, so if you run your heatpump in the off peak periods in the morning and afternoon, and shift any other usage you have control over to those times (dishwasher, washing machine) whilst avoiding the peak rate 4-7 then it should still offer a saving.
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UK Gov site has a tool which explains the suitability of different options for particular circumstances;
https://www.gov.uk/check-heat-pump
Details of your Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) are available to view.....mine was out of date, because of recent changes.
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Heat Pump Monitor is an interesting site for those thinking about an air source heat pump.
https://heatpumpmonitor.org/
The efficiency of different models is given (as Coefficient of Performance figures), but this will depend on other energy efficiency measures in the property.
To see the running costs at current prices:
https://heatpumpmonitor.org/costs.html
The price of electricity will change, and adding solar also changes the economics.
A full year of data is needed to get the whole picture.
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I've just today had a 4kW solar panel system installed with a 9.6kWh battery. Now expecting to spend hours each day optimising the charge times to fit in with Octopus Agile rates.
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Nice one bst, was filling in my monthly generation numbers in yesterday and wondered about whether you'd bit the bullet yet.
I've started scaling back my eco7 charging as we're getting to the point where the sun can handle a chunk of the load. I expect to be doing almost no charging by the end of this month.
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That's going to be the interesting thing SS - seeing how much to top the batteries up and how much to rely on the solar. I was pleasantly surprised that, when the solar panels were finally connected at 16:20 under slate grey skies, they were still pumping out 200W. I know that's only a tiny fraction of capacity, but I was surprised they gave out anything, it was so grim.
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Yeah, as you saw from my numbers on my Solar FAQ thread, they do better than you expect over winter
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Octopus now offering heat pumps fitted from £2500, cheaper than British Gas at £3k;
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/octopus-energy-heat-pump-boiler-energy-british-gas-b1059668.html
That will be for the smaller unit I expect.
If you live in a mansion, expect a higher cost.
New tariff for solar, batteries and EV owners as well;
https://www.solarpowerportal.co.uk/news/octopus_energy_launches_new_combined_solar_battery_and_ev_tariff
It will be interesting to see if prices fall lower than this offer.
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That's a really interesting tariff and now has me sat here wondering if it's worth me shelling out for a 4th battery for my solar and switching onto it and away from my eco-7/Agile outgoing combo. Hmmmmm.
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Been thinking about the heat pumps again in light of my experience with panels and batteries. Here's some top of the head calcs.
Assume your peak gas CH usage is 100kWh/day. That's £10/day at current rates.
With a Efficiency Factor 4 heat pump, you'd need 25kWh of electric to run that. That's £8.33/day at current rates (33p/kWh). So there's already a saving, but not very much and it would take a long time to pay back even the current subsidised heat pump installation costs.
What about if you use Octopus Agile and charge up batteries overnight at low tariffs?
You still need to get 25kWh a day for your heat pump. Assume you get 1/4 of that direct from the grid overnight at the low rates, and 3kWh from solar panels during the day. That means you'd need about 16kWh of battery storage for the rest of your requirement. That'd be about £5-7k, plus the cost of the pump installation, say £8-9k upfront investment.
With Octopus Agile, I reckon recently the average low tariff figure has been about 24p/kWh. So that would be £5.25 per day (24p times (25kWh minus the 3kWh assumed to come from the panels) or a £4.75/day saving on standard tariffs.
Assume that rate of heating was used for 150 days per year - that would be £700 per year saving. It'd take > 10 years to pay back the original investment. But the batteries would probably need replacing after 10 years, so it wouldn't quite ever break even.
But there's another Octopus tariff, Intelligent Go, only available to people with an EV charge point. That has a guaranteed overnight rate of 10p/kWh. If that was available to heat pump owners, the cost to run the pump would be £2.20 per day - £7.80 saving per day or £1170 per year assuming 150 days of heating. That means the initial investment would be paid off after 7-8 years. That starts to make sense.
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The Octopus tariff is available to people with a heat pump, as long as they have an EV (with charger) as well.
Small detail, but an important point.
So do you actually have to currently own an EV, or if you have a charger installed (for future proofing) like many new builds, are you eligible.
You could ask Octopus, I suppose.
With your calculations BST, keep in mind the claimed efficiency is on the up.
Samsung now claiming 5 to 1 for their low noise model:
https://samsung-climatesolutions.com/en-gb/b2c/heat-pump-solutions/heating/mono-ht-quiet.html
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Albie.
I'd jump at getting an EV charger installed to get the Go rate, but I don't have off road parking. My understanding is that installers won't put in a charge point unless you have off road parking.
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BST,
What I'm saying is that others could, if they had a mind to!
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Agreed Albie.
I'm just pointing out that there will be many cases where that won't work. It needs a more far sighted national policy to encourage uptake.
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QI:
''While the share of electric vehicles and induction stoves sales may be growing, they still represent a sliver of all cars and stoves sold respectively. US heat pump sales, though, surpassed those of gas furnaces last year as the tech of choice to keep homes comfortable''
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/11/heat-pump-revolution-what-you-need-to-know
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Looks like heat pump installations are now taking off, after a slowish start;
https://eciu.net/media/press-releases/2023/governments-heat-pump-scheme-could-run-out-of-vouchers-as-demand-rises
Anybody pondering the change should get in before the subsidy runs out, although I reckon they will extend support.
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Interesting update on heat pump technology in the Torygraph;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/08/22/heat-pump-technology-soon-hot-even-britons-tempted/
The BlueHeart pump sounds promising.
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Now that the grant has increased to £7.5k per installation, the price wars are up and running.
From £500, depending upon property and other measures needed.
Octopus are making their own brand in NI, available December:
https://octopus.energy/get-a-heat-pump/
British Gas;
https://www.britishgas.co.uk/home-services/boilers-and-heating/air-source-heat-pumps.html
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Which magazine with an update on installation and running costs, with new tariffs now available;
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/a-heat-pump-might-be-a-lot-cheaper-than-you-think-heres-how-aSx7P0B2hOHW
Worth looking at if your gas boiler is at the end of its useful life, or you are thinking of an energy makeover.
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QI
''You can walk around in a T-shirt’: how Norway brought heat pumps in from the cold.
Device installed in two-thirds of households of country whose experience suggests switching to greener heating can be done''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/23/norway-heat-pumps-cold-heating
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I have one thanks to Albies posts on here.
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Have you tried setting alight to half a dozen tyres in the middle of the road?
Doesn’t half give some heat out + you’re helping the environment out by stopping geezers waste dumping the tyres!
Thinking of inviting David Attenborough round for a street party. Reckon he might bring some interesting ‘meat’ for the inevitable BBQ that might follow…..upwind of course. You don’t get to watch the amount of survival programmes as I do without picking up some knowledge.
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Anyone gone down the route of electric boiler that charges either via solar or cheaper overnight rates? Seems like an interesting development in technology
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QI
''You can walk around in a T-shirt’: how Norway brought heat pumps in from the cold.
Device installed in two-thirds of households of country whose experience suggests switching to greener heating can be done''
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/nov/23/norway-heat-pumps-cold-heating
You mean to say the British media, and some of the population, who are constantly negative about anything new or change in genreal are wrong? And it actually works. Who knew :lol: I saw in the article that uK are the lowest adopters in Europe. Surpirse surprise. Dig t coal up lad
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Anyone gone down the route of electric boiler that charges either via solar or cheaper overnight rates? Seems like an interesting development in technology
You should read the whole thread it's not long and there is useful info, except for the usual suspect trying to make it political.
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Anyone gone down the route of electric boiler that charges either via solar or cheaper overnight rates? Seems like an interesting development in technology
You are talking about the ZEB, the zero emissions boiler.
https://www.tepeo.com/the-zeb
Unfortunately this does not qualify for the £7.5k government grant, although that may change.
They say they are working on a new version to replace a combi boiler, so waiting for that.
A lot of innovation going on in his sector.....Worcester Bosch now have a heat pump with quiet mark certification, lower noise than a fridge.
In Leeds they are fitting them to blocks of flats, giving an energy makeover from low efficiency storage heaters;
https://www.hpmmag.com/news/high-temperature-air-source-heat-pumps-installed-at-leeds-tower-block
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Looks like gas will be on its way out with the proposed future homes standard;
https://www.propertywire.com/news/heat-pumps-could-be-the-norm-from-2025/
Better late than never, but new build with gas boilers between now and 2025 makes no sense.
Thoughts are turning to the future decommissioning of the gas grid;
https://archive.is/dV68v
Is it possible that this could be turned into an opportunity?
Repurpose gas pipelines as energy carriers for the new North Sea electricity sector.
If they can transport gas to where it is needed, could they equally transfer energy in another form....leccy, hydrogen, hot water?
Reduce the cost of overhead transmission lines...just a thought!
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Additional financial support announced to support the sector;
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/families-business-and-industry-to-get-energy-efficiency-support
Energy efficiency makeovers now becoming the low hanging fruit!
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All being well I’m going to be purchasing a house that has a heat pump. Anyone any idea how much they cost to run from an electricity stand point? Presume they run 24/7 365.
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They would be available to run 24/7 Gaz but would only fire up when required/set. How much that cost is would depend on a few variable such as how large the space it is required to heat and the temp setting, same for the hot water and different sized systems.
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Depends on whether you have the solar, Gaz, and what tariff you are on with your utility.
Some like Octopus offer a special rate for heat pump users.
See the Which Report I linked in an earlier post on this thread (72).
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Quick update as Worcester Bosch are offering £2.5k cashback from April to those choosing their heat pump;
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/worcester-bosch_breaking-news-to-help-make-2024-the-activity-7152714307863007234-cuKy
This is as well as the £7.5k government grant.
Anyone who needs to replace their boiler should look into this.
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I thought this graph will be of interest to those with a heat pump, or thinking about it;
https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGJl2JcdXUAAvrrB.jpg
It shows the savings on a heat pump tariff, against the efficiency of the system.