Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: drfchound on November 14, 2021, 07:49:11 pm
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I see that the government are set to scrap the Eastern section of HS2 and instead improve existing rail links.
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I see that the government are set to scrap the Eastern section of HS2 and instead improve existing rail links.
What do you think about this, would you like the HS2 to come to Leeds or prefer not, why do you think they have scrapped the idea or were they never intending it to run up north? Quite an interesting topic you have posted hound.
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So much for levelling up.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-to-water-down-promise-on-northern-powerhouse-rail-line-in-key-plan-this-week-1300248?ito=twitter_share_article-top
When Sunak replaces Johnson, remember he's the Chancellor who has given the thumbs up to £40bn for Crossrail 2 and the finger to transport in the North.
The East Midlands Line electrification was supposed to have started a decade ago and still Sheffield remains the biggest city in Western Europe with diesel-only trains.
Look under the bullshit rhetoric and they don't really give two f**ks about the North.
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So much for levelling up.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-to-water-down-promise-on-northern-powerhouse-rail-line-in-key-plan-this-week-1300248?ito=twitter_share_article-top
The East Midlands Line electrification was supposed to have started a decade ago and still Sheffield remains the biggest city in Western Europe with diesel-only trains.
... and Leeds is still the biggest city in Western Europe with no mass transit system - such as Tram network
I know its easy with hindsight but what possessed Cities to get rid of Trams etc - modernisation ?
Even Donny had "Trackless" electric Buses ffs criss crossing the Town - will set a Thread going soon
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Doncaster had a Tram system before Trackless, both went down The Pan due to Progress'
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Doncaster had a Tram system before Trackless, both sent download The Pan due to Progress'
See my comment and link on Wolfies new trackless topic sprot
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/14/government-to-finally-drop-plan-for-hs2-link-to-leeds-reports
If true this seems really bizarre. Not fully cancelling the High speed Leeds link, only not connecting Sheffield to East Midlands Parkway.
I assume this means the connection to London remains, only with a slow section in the East Midlands. Half arsed or what?
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I never really understood the eastern leg of HS2. The East Coast mainline is not at full capacity, hence why there are paths for the open access operators to run trains to London from Bradford, Hull and Sunderland. If I was a resident of Leeds I'd be happy with getting better local transport and it keeps stations like Donny, Grantham, etc on the main route rather than becoming rail backwaters like Lincoln.
It pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to agree with the tories... with Covid, Brexit and the way the economy is, something has to give. If they hadn't already started the main part of HS2 to Birmingham I'd guess that they would have cancelled the whole thing and looked to upgrade the speed limit on the West Coast mainline instead.
The bit that doesn't make sense is the peicemeal bits still being done and London-Sheffield still not being electrified, especially when they've already done a good portion of the southern end already for commuter trains into London.
I'm guessing the HS3 (Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds) plans will now die a death too.
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Excuse me if I am wrong, but Leeds Sheffield and Doncaster were running their own municipal transport systems when Trackies and trams were done away with and replaced by cheaper Diesel transport, and all under labour controlled councils at the time, and a good chance of the labour party government under Wilson also being in power.
In fairness I think it was seen as progress at the time, and the chance to expand the network to the outlying new estates on the outer edges of the cities without the infrastructure being built to support the tram and trackless systems.
Motoring was seen as the future, and personal transport was coming into fashion with the motor car and the working classes ability to afford it.
Some would revert to the working class being priced out of the ability of personal transport, I think they are heading for trouble.
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I never really understood the eastern leg of HS2. The East Coast mainline is not at full capacity, hence why there are paths for the open access operators to run trains to London from Bradford, Hull and Sunderland. If I was a resident of Leeds I'd be happy with getting better local transport and it keeps stations like Donny, Grantham, etc on the main route rather than becoming rail backwaters like Lincoln.
It pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to agree with the tories... with Covid, Brexit and the way the economy is, something has to give. If they hadn't already started the main part of HS2 to Birmingham I'd guess that they would have cancelled the whole thing and looked to upgrade the speed limit on the West Coast mainline instead.
The bit that doesn't make sense is the peicemeal bits still being done and London-Sheffield still not being electrified, especially when they've already done a good portion of the southern end already for commuter trains into London.
I'm guessing the HS3 (Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds) plans will now die a death too.
I did read East Coast Mainline could be made faster and more reliable with infrastructure work to get rid of some bottlenecks, for instance an additional bridge at Welwyn Garden City to shift commuter trains off the mainline and some additional tunneling.
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I agree with Rios on this, but we need to see that the changes add up to a better package overall.
Removing bottlenecks on the existing networks makes much more economic sense than a vanity project like HS2.
I am not opposed to high speed rail, but the upgrading of the Victorian network is a higher priority. High Speed on the footprint of a current line might be feasible, with the service temporarily suspended during the works, section by section.
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I never really understood the eastern leg of HS2. The East Coast mainline is not at full capacity, hence why there are paths for the open access operators to run trains to London from Bradford, Hull and Sunderland. If I was a resident of Leeds I'd be happy with getting better local transport and it keeps stations like Donny, Grantham, etc on the main route rather than becoming rail backwaters like Lincoln.
It pains me to say it, but I'm gonna have to agree with the tories... with Covid, Brexit and the way the economy is, something has to give. If they hadn't already started the main part of HS2 to Birmingham I'd guess that they would have cancelled the whole thing and looked to upgrade the speed limit on the West Coast mainline instead.
The bit that doesn't make sense is the peicemeal bits still being done and London-Sheffield still not being electrified, especially when they've already done a good portion of the southern end already for commuter trains into London.
I'm guessing the HS3 (Liverpool/Manchester/Leeds) plans will now die a death too.
This is the fundamental misunderstanding that the Tories play on. Something DOESN'T have t give when you are talking about long term capital investment. It pays for itself in a a number of ways, including the multiplier effect in the short term (people and companies getting paid to do the work spend that money so other people earn so they spend and they all pay taxes on the earnings and the spending) and the long term efficiencies it brings over the next 150 years. Not to mention the fact that Man U-f**king-nited and the like would have less of an excuse to take 10 minute aircraft flights to cities just over the horizon...
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BST,
HS2 did not meet the criteria set in the Treasury Green Book, so was approved against the published cost benefit appraisal.
There is very good evidence that schemes like this suck economic activity from the weaker to the stronger economy, and HS2 would primarily benefit London and the SE.
It meets all the criteria of a Johnson scheme, including transferring public funds to private contractors, gaining cheap headlines and persuading people he can "get things done", despite his record showing the opposite. Soundbites for votes, with apologies for afters!
The Leeds extension was always the most vulnerable, and as costs spiral out of control the likelihood of a cull increased.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/high-speed-2-costs
The increase in potential costs has risen year on year since approval.
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So much for levelling up.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-to-water-down-promise-on-northern-powerhouse-rail-line-in-key-plan-this-week-1300248?ito=twitter_share_article-top
When Sunak replaces Johnson, remember he's the Chancellor who has given the thumbs up to £40bn for Crossrail 2 and the finger to transport in the North.
The East Midlands Line electrification was supposed to have started a decade ago and still Sheffield remains the biggest city in Western Europe with diesel-only trains.
Look under the bullshit rhetoric and they don't really give two f**ks about the North.
The daft thing about it is the fact that Sheffield did have electrification, from the old Victoria Station to Manchester, a really high speed journey, and then the whole f*cking thing was taken down, along with the closure of Victoria Station.
Madness.
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I recall going to Woodhead by Steam train and then changing over to Electra loco to head to Mcr
Wonder if they hadn't built the Sheffield to Woodhead bit at that time
Another sad error getting rid of electric overhead lines , trams and tracklesses not to mention Beeching
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I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.
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I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.
Some people have serious double standards AL.
HS2 is a serious waste of money and should never have been sanctioned in the first place in my opinion.
Your point about the countryside destruction is also overlooked by some who have championed HS2 as well.
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Hs2 was never going to benefit Doncaster, now they can sort out the pinch points at Hitching, Peterborough and Rossington and Welwyn and knock 20 mins off the journey time to London. They can also re visit the Finningly Airport Arm.
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Does hs2 operate on water?
It will need to by the end of the century.
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I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.
The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.
''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''
https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508
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The Leeds/Manchester high speed rail which has also been cancelled, surely is the biggest kicker here. I used to work in Leeds for a company based in Manchester, the train commute was an absolute joke. I always thought a high speed rail between Hull and Liverpool connecting. Doncaster Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc would have a huge benefit to the north, as it stands it’s one of the slowest routes in Europe.
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I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.
The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.
''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''
https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508
There is no public transport. If i was to catch the bus to work and back, i would have around one hour at work by the time i had walked from and back to the bus station.
Public transport is something they have in London and most politicians on both sides don't seem to know it is virtually non existant outside of the big cities.
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I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.
The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.
''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''
https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508
There is no public transport. If i was to catch the bus to work and back, i would have around one hour at work by the time i had walked from and back to the bus station.
Public transport is something they have in London and most politicians on both sides don't seem to know it is virtually non existant outside of the big cities.
Exactly, thank you AL you made the point better than I did, building roads doesn't solve congestion, public transport does.
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I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.
The thing is, rail transport is more efficient than road, look at all the effing roads that now criss-cross the countryside. More roads to solve congestion end up competing with public transport and creating more traffic, whereas improving rail transport leaves existing roads for the final leg of the journey, tradies and trucks.
''Do more roads really mean less congestion for commuters?''
https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508
There is no public transport. If i was to catch the bus to work and back, i would have around one hour at work by the time i had walked from and back to the bus station.
Public transport is something they have in London and most politicians on both sides don't seem to know it is virtually non existant outside of the big cities.
Exactly, thank you AL you made the point better than I did, building roads doesn't solve congestion, public transport does.
PT wouldn't work for me as i'm travelling from a backwater in North Lincs, for people travelling shorter distances such as under ten miles better PT would free up the roads for people with no realistic alternative. Your battle is to get them out of their car. I was stood in the CO-OP in Epworth last Saturday and some old bloke drove up to the shop, got out of his car and came in to buy a bag of sweets! Now i don't know if he'd been anywhere else but it's pointless journeys like that which are a big problem.
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The Leeds/Manchester high speed rail which has also been cancelled, surely is the biggest kicker here. I used to work in Leeds for a company based in Manchester, the train commute was an absolute joke. I always thought a high speed rail between Hull and Liverpool connecting. Doncaster Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester etc would have a huge benefit to the north, as it stands it’s one of the slowest routes in Europe.
I agree. I'm sure a fast connection between Manchester and Leeds would have a transformational effect. Then on to Liverpool, Sheffield, Hull.
The concept of tying the large northern cities closer together seemed a good one to me.
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The route from Hull to Liverpool is a joke unfortunately. Even with the current TRU project it will still be painfully slow
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The case for bringing HS2 to Leeds never made a huge amount of sense to me, just make the ecml better. I find the 1hr 30-40 to London from Doncaster fine. They talked about the economic benefits but it hasn't hugely helped Doncaster with the exception largely of those who live here and work in London.
It's ridiculous though that we can largely get to London quicker than Manchester or Liverpool. Cross penine travel is horrendous and surely improving that is the biggest potential benefit.
There's some great points on this thread, public transport doesn't work well outside London, Birmingham, the north east or Manchester really and this wouldn't have solved that much bigger issue.
I work 9 miles from my house now, closest I ever have to home. But I can't do it on public transport as it is hugely slower and expensive when I can pretty much drive it for free charging my car at work. Quite often those who do need public transport in the office get lifts from others given the cost and travel time.
We had dozens of rail lines for the pits, God knows why they didn't retain and use them for economic benefit.
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HS2 Eastern spur would have tied Leeds and Sheffield much closer together, which would have brought benefits though there have always been problems getting the line through Sheffield.
I always thought the Parkway station between Nottingham and Derby was only really about providing long distance commuters with a more convenient way from the East Midlands to London. It looks like that will still go ahead.
The real aim of High a Speed rail was meant to offer a low carbon alternative to internal flights, odd then that it wasn't planned to go right up to Newcastle and Edinburgh from the off.
From the point of view of offering alternatives to aviation, I always thought it was a staggering design flaw that the line terminates in London and doesn't connect directly to HS1 out to the continent too.
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I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.
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I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.
It'll be interesting to see what else they go with as talk was they'd still build Sheffield to Leeds in some form.
There are other more pressing points I'd say? Connect Barnsley better to Leeds, Sheffield, Doncaster and you've a big boost. Same with other parts of West yorkshire. Do we need better connections south or better around our local areas?
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It's a false dichotomy.
We need both. We're going to get neither. Or at least neither on the scale that we need.
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I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.
It'll be interesting to see what else they go with as talk was they'd still build Sheffield to Leeds in some form.
There are other more pressing points I'd say? Connect Barnsley better to Leeds, Sheffield, Doncaster and you've a big boost. Same with other parts of West yorkshire. Do we need better connections south or better around our local areas?
They are bound to upgrade parts of the network, but it’s still the same network and a lot of that work is already ongoing. It’s the high speed trains that are not stopping at local stations getting priority over the local trains that causes the issues for local travellers. Implementing this section of HS2 would have a net benefit for travel in the region, I’m sure of it.
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Anyone see the car crash interview this morning with MP for Penistone? Trying to defend the scrapping by saying she has managed to get improvements on her local lines to Sheffield which makes it a lot quicker for her constituents to get to Sheffield and that is what should be hapoening lots of little local improvements. Not many people travel to London now she says. Wonder when the last time she was on a teain outside of 1st class! She should try getting North from Nottingham it's either a drive to Newark to catch LNER or change at Chesterfield or Sheffield there in no direct Nothern link and that supposedly was what HS2 was about, yet another broken promise from the Conservative Manifesto.
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I remember saying in a much earlier thread on the same subject something like the only way to guarantee getting the HS2 to Leeds would be to start building from the north down.
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I think the issue is that people don’t really understand what the high speed rail network is for. The real benefit is not one of time but the fact that the high speed trains (and freight) can be taken off the current infrastructure allowing local services to run on the current network with less delay and at increased capacity. This just can’t happen without HS2. It’s a mistake knocking it on the head.
Capacity was a priority for the UK, which makes sense because the UK has the worlds oldest network in need of upgrading.
But when the Japanese and French started developing high speed rail it was as an alternative to flying.
Both objectives were valid in the UK.
I think the focus with HS2 has become the fast link between Birmingham and London and the opportunity to expand the computer belt of London out into the Midlands. Look at what's happening now, the project terminates in London because London is the objective. The Eastern Spur terminates at a car park in the East Midlands in the middle of nowhere because it's about feeding London with more commuters.
And now they've given regional airports a tax break, it looks very much like the solution to overcoming distance in the country is aviation. So much for climate change.
And they've cancelled the so called Northern Powrhouse rail link. So much for levelling up.
The focus is all on the capital.
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There was always a reason why they started to build HS2 in London, and that was s that other sections in the North could be cancelled
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Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.
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The more you read it the more you think the proposals are nothing like ambitious enough. Long timescales, improvements not big enough and not all targeted correctly. There's a very valid point from the PM that largely people aren't bothered about high speed to London but better availability to get to work etc.
I just think of us in Doncaster. They could really push things forward in the town with better rail to certain villages (askern etc), link to the airport and all the development there and connections improved to the other local cities (Sheffield, hull etc) and then bringing the great British rail base here. But we'll get none of that. Does ten minutes off the journey to London matter? Not really.
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Perhaps "up here in the North" we should rename HS2 ....
H2S
cos it stinks ..... could say there are no "good eggs" in the cabinet just "bad eggs" leaving a bad smell
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Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.
It still will increase house prices in the Midlands, that component of the project remains intact. £96bil to extend the London commuter belt basically.
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Northern Workhouse.
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Excellent interview with a rail boss on R4 news this lunchtime
He said the basic problem we have in UK is running local stoppers and fast IC trains on same lines. That limits capacity because you need a big gap between a stopper and a fast train.
That was the point of HS2. It wasn't about journey times, it was about putting fast trains on a dedicated line. That would allow you to have far more capacity on the stopper line.
He said everyone in the industry knows this, and knows that abolishing the Eastern HS2 now means we are stuck with limited capacity for decades. The proposed line improvements will help a bit but only a tiny bit. Most of it is political window dressing.
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Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid 19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.
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What you vote for - is what you get:
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Very good comment piece from Rail journalist Christian Wolmar here;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/18/revised-hs2-plan-viable-boris-johnson-rail
Barmy Bozo is a dab hand at announcing the grand scheme, then parking it sometime later.
Thames airport, London Garden Bridge, Bridge/Tunnel to Northern Ireland etc, etc!
HS2 is no loss, but east west city connection across the north is a big loss.
Very different economic profile to these schemes, so bundling them all together makes little sense.
It would be good if the government could make an announcement without recycling previous commitments, including the money to finance them.
How many times can you make the same pot of money do a publicity job for the PM?
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Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid 19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.
I'm not sure you're really grasping the point of an open discussion forum, Selby.
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Note most of this won't have started by the next election so will be interesting to see if labour propose implementing more or not.
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I have to appologise I have just read the comments on here from 2015/16 on the subject and it looks as if most were experts on HS2 long before Covid, and could predict the future too.
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Excellent interview with a rail boss on R4 news this lunchtime
He said the basic problem we have in UK is running local stoppers and fast IC trains on same lines. That limits capacity because you need a big gap between a stopper and a fast train.
That was the point of HS2. It wasn't about journey times, it was about putting fast trains on a dedicated line. That would allow you to have far more capacity on the stopper line.
He said everyone in the industry knows this, and knows that abolishing the Eastern HS2 now means we are stuck with limited capacity for decades. The proposed line improvements will help a bit but only a tiny bit. Most of it is political window dressing.
This is the issue with the East Coast mainline, the bottlenecks slow the IC trains down around Hitchen and Welwyn where local stoppers use the mainline.
One or two bridges and tunnels and Leeds would have a comparable journey time to London on that fast line as opposed to HS2. Upgrades like that aren't a big sexy project though.
The real kick in the teeth here is the cancelling of the high speed East/West link. That would have had a transformational effect.
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Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.
It still will increase house prices in the Midlands, that component of the project remains intact. £96bil to extend the London commuter belt basically.
That is what I said RD.
The midlands is further North than London.
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Yep, agreed and it was under the Labour government in 2009 that the scheme was first proposed.
HS2 has always been about getting people to London rather than the other way round.
It would have also increased house prices further North as commuters moved home further from their SE place of work.
It still will increase house prices in the Midlands, that component of the project remains intact. £96bil to extend the London commuter belt basically.
That is what I said RD.
The midlands is further North than London.
Fair enough, I took 'would have' to mean it won't now. What has largely happened with this announcement, is that the London centric objective always within the original plan is now laid bare as being of foremost importance.
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Sunak has been quiet today. Wonder if he remembers saying this
https://twitter.com/bphillipsonMP/status/1461328690940362756
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Can we have our home back now, please?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/18/can-we-have-our-home-back-hs2-u-turn-leaves-uprooted-family-reeling
Weavers unfinished housing estate in Mexborough is now not being knocked down.
Farcical.
Heh, I walked the dogs with my Dad near High Melton, we stopped and tried to work out the proposed route of the new High speed line through Mexborough.
Dad said "it'll never happen" he's not here to see it but he's been proved right today.
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Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid 19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.
I guess as the country downsizes and the population diminishes over time there will be less need for a fast modern rail system like they have in many countries of the world.
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I find it difficult to understand how so many people on here who reckon to champion the environment are upset by this. The wanton destruction of the countryside, ancient woodlands and peoples homes is some thing i will be glad to see stopped.
Some people have serious double standards AL.
HS2 is a serious waste of money and should never have been sanctioned in the first place in my opinion.
Your point about the countryside destruction is also overlooked by some who have championed HS2 as well.
I was certainly in the camp that thought the humongous cost of HS2 could be better spent on new and improved
regional infrastructure.
I benefits didn't stack up for me. For example, why would you want to travel to Meadowhall to catch a HS2 train to London instead of catching the service from Donny with an overall shorter journey time.
If it's not about speed, is it about capacity? I'm sure it's within the realms of intelligent engineers to increase capacity on the current networks for a fraction of the cost of HS2.
I couldn't help thinking, by the time HS2 is finished, new technology may have overtaken with people and goods being able to move via automated drone!!
Talking of local improvements, can anyone confirm whether the funding has been secured to reroute the East Coast mainline via Donny Airport? This seems to be one of the more sensible approaches to improving existing infrastructure and connectivity.
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Can I just say how proud and amazed I am at fellow supporters of the Rovers who have for the last eighteen months have shown their expertise in Covid 19 and how many of the same experts have at the drop of a hat in no time at all have become expert Railway engineers.
I guess as the country downsizes and the population diminishes over time there will be less need for a fast modern rail system like they have in many countries of the world.
After all, we can always go back to canals.
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At least we now all know what 'Levelling Up' really means.
'Levelling Up to Birmingham'.
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I wonder if the new plans for HS2 to East Midlands Parkway bother to take account of East Midlands airport?
I mean you can see the aircraft take off from the platform at a East Midlands but you need to hang around for a crumby bus service to get to the airport.
Shift the line a couple of miles and they could have the railway line terminate at the airport.
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I wonder if the new plans for HS2 to East Midlands Parkway bother to take account of East Midlands airport?
I mean you can see the aircraft take off from the platform at a East Midlands but you need to hang around for a crumby bus service to get to the airport.
Shift the line a couple of miles and they could have the railway line terminate at the airport.
Depends what date maps where used by the planners to determine the route, apparently outdated maps were used regarding the shimmer estate in Mexborough, resulting in nearly new properties being compulsory purchased
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That was unbelievable Filo,
Andrew Weaver (brother of Simon Weaver Harrogate manager) suddenly discovered his new housing estate in Mexborough was being compulsory purchased because they did not know it existed!
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I think this might be the interview Raven mentioned;
https://twitter.com/i/status/1461352276254097420
Victoria Derbyshire is probably on borrowed time at the BBC, what with doing her job properly and that!
I don't reckon she is that bothered.
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Then, Feb 2020, but we know that decisions are being made whether it is possible or not, whether there is genuine intention to go-ahead or not
''HS2 go-ahead controversial and difficult, admits Boris Johnson''
''Prime Minister Boris Johnson has announced that the controversial HS2 high-speed rail link will be built.
The first phase of the route will travel between London and Birmingham, with a second phase going to Manchester and Leeds''
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51461597
Now, ''HS2 rail extension to Leeds scrapped amid promise to transform rail''
Not 18 months later .............
Accompanied with a whole new raft of johnson promises and guarantees that are not worth a cracker. Those in the magic circle know that the last person he speaks to is the one that carries sway.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59334043?piano-footer
ammended
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If only there was a photogenic, persuasive Tory backbencher holding the Govt to account over its promises to the North...
https://mobile.twitter.com/bphillipsonMP/status/1461328690940362756
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I'm glad HS2 won't be coming. Good.
Stop vandalising the countryside for the benefit of people in cities.
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If only there was a photogenic, persuasive Tory backbencher holding the Govt to account over its promises to the North...
https://mobile.twitter.com/bphillipsonMP/status/1461328690940362756
The Sunak footage is hilarious now.
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I'm glad HS2 won't be coming. Good.
Stop vandalising the countryside for the benefit of people in cities.
You mean those that generate wealth and buy ............. cars and stuff?
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If only there was a photogenic, persuasive Tory backbencher holding the Govt to account over its promises to the North...
https://mobile.twitter.com/bphillipsonMP/status/1461328690940362756
His original points were pretty much spot on, so strange to not pursue it fully. Though the actual plans are not that far from the original on the so called NPR.
Equally amazing that Starmer has done a full turn aswell. He's gone from fierce HS2 critic to slamming the government all of a sudden.
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When was Starmer a fierce critic of HS2 BFYP?
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When was Starmer a fierce critic of HS2 BFYP?
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/657539020533145600?t=-uTXL0P7BIh3i69ad7X3nA&s=19
That for starters. He also voted against it in parliament. Amazing what becoming leader and political gain does to change your view. Same bracket as Sunak clearly.
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Just waiting now for the spin.
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
f**king hell, talk about blinkered!
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HS2 on steroids into Manchester
''Government planning ‘to put HS2 on stilts through Manchester’
Andy Burnham demands underground station for new route rather than cheaper series of viaducts''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/nov/19/government-planning-to-put-hs2-on-stilts-through-manchester
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
f**king hell, talk about blinkered!
I don't know which one is worse hound .
The Etonian entitled serial bullshyter who everyone knew was a serial entitled bullshyter
Or
The one who looks and talks as though he's been through Eton plus a knighthood and serial bullshyte's .
If the bar gets any lower even these two snakes won't be able to crawl under it .
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
f**king hell, talk about blinkered!
I don't know which one is worse hound .
The Etonian entitled serial bullshyter who everyone knew was a serial entitled bullshyter
Or
The one who looks and talks as though he's been through Eton plus a knighthood and serial bullshyte's .
If the bar gets any lower even these two snakes won't be able to crawl under it .
Agreed tyke. Both very much the same in some respects.
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
f**king hell, talk about blinkered!
I don't know which one is worse hound .
The Etonian entitled serial bullshyter who everyone knew was a serial entitled bullshyter
Or
The one who looks and talks as though he's been through Eton plus a knighthood and serial bullshyte's .
If the bar gets any lower even these two snakes won't be able to crawl under it .
Agreed tyke. Both very much the same in some respects.
Any Labour leader who accepts a knighthood for simply doing their job probably belongs in the Tory party in my opinion .
Apparently Keith doesn't like to be referred to as " Sir " .
So why accept the knighthood then you may ask yourself ?
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
f**king hell, talk about blinkered!
I don't know which one is worse hound .
The Etonian entitled serial bullshyter who everyone knew was a serial entitled bullshyter
Or
The one who looks and talks as though he's been through Eton plus a knighthood and serial bullshyte's .
If the bar gets any lower even these two snakes won't be able to crawl under it .
Agreed tyke. Both very much the same in some respects.
A lot of commenters are the same, small minded vindictive and childish, wouldn't you agree hound?
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I take it that you are referring to your own posts there.
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I take it that you are referring to your own posts there.
You actually hound you're one of the most childish people on the forum full stop, why do you need everything spelling out, just grow up.
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I take it that you are referring to your own posts there.
You actually hound you're one of the most childish people on the forum full stop, why do you need everything spelling out, just grow up.
Oh, the irony of that statement.
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I take it that you are referring to your own posts there.
You actually hound you're one of the most childish people on the forum full stop, why do you need everything spelling out, just grow up.
Oh, the irony of that statement.
no, the truth hound you're still a child
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I take it that you are referring to your own posts there.
You actually hound you're one of the most childish people on the forum full stop, why do you need everything spelling out, just grow up.
Oh, the irony of that statement.
no, the truth hound you're still a child
Haha. Pick your teddies up before you go out.
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Bunter and Keith. Let's hope to f*ck they're both replaced before the next GE.
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:welcome: :that:
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Bunter and Keith. Let's hope to f*ck they're both replaced before the next GE.
Who are you putting forward as replacements Steve?
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Bunter and Keith. Let's hope to f*ck they're both replaced before the next GE.
Who are you putting forward as replacements Steve?
Sunak's a shoe-in. Not sure about Labour, Andy Burnham will probably still be Manchester Mayor.
As long as Keith's out, as he won't get the votes in the North.
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Bunter and Keith. Let's hope to f*ck they're both replaced before the next GE.
Who are you putting forward as replacements Steve?
Sunak's a shoe-in. Not sure about Labour, Andy Burnham will probably still be Manchester Mayor.
As long as Keith's out, as he won't get the votes in the North.
Maybe you should explain what you are looking for in the next labour leader, what qualities would be acceptable to you, I/we can help you look. What do you want, someone more to the left? someone more qualified? what qualifications should they have? Do they have to be against foreign workers coming to this country? what policies should they be championing? Should they make a stand against police bias conscious or unconscious? there's plenty to think about Steve.
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Bunter and Keith. Let's hope to f*ck they're both replaced before the next GE.
Who are you putting forward as replacements Steve?
Sunak's a shoe-in. Not sure about Labour, Andy Burnham will probably still be Manchester Mayor.
As long as Keith's out, as he won't get the votes in the North.
Maybe you should explain what you are looking for in the next labour leader, what qualities would be acceptable to you, I/we can help you look. What do you want, someone more to the left? someone more qualified? what qualifications should they have? Do they have to be against foreign workers coming to this country? what policies should they be championing? Should they make a stand against police bias conscious or unconscious? there's plenty to think about Steve.
Instead of making a pest of yourself on this thread kindly answer my question ...properly on the CCC Thread.
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Sprot, maybe you should get out of the bedroom more and see a bit of life.
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
f**king hell, talk about blinkered!
I don't know which one is worse hound .
The Etonian entitled serial bullshyter who everyone knew was a serial entitled bullshyter
Or
The one who looks and talks as though he's been through Eton plus a knighthood and serial bullshyte's .
If the bar gets any lower even these two snakes won't be able to crawl under it .
You really can't tell which one is worse?
Honestly?
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Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.
f**king hell, talk about blinkered!
I don't know which one is worse hound .
The Etonian entitled serial bullshyter who everyone knew was a serial entitled bullshyter
Or
The one who looks and talks as though he's been through Eton plus a knighthood and serial bullshyte's .
If the bar gets any lower even these two snakes won't be able to crawl under it .
You really can't tell which one is worse?
Honestly?
….and you say you didn’t know about Starmer campaigning against HS2, yeah, of course you didn’t.
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It typifies the problem for me. Boris is doing a pretty poor job of late and he knows it. But are labour really catching up or are they slightly benefitting from a poor Tory position. It's hard to see the Tories going backwards in the polls from where they are now. Starmer makes it easy to be criticised because nobody knows what he stands for. He appears to change his views to suit opportunities.
Second jobs labour want to ban them, but he took advantage of it (imo second jobs are important if managed correctly whereas he now wants pretty much a full ban). HS2 he was against it until he could take advantage of it. Brexit, his view Changed after the election again. How do we know what he stands for apart from what the government doesn't do? Corbyn was a poor leader but largely we knew who he was. It remains a case of who is the least bad leader.
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BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).
In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.
That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.
Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.
Context is everything.
Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.
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BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).
In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.
That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.
Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.
Context is everything.
Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.
Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .
His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .
Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .
Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .
It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .
The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .
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Tyke.
I swear you'd have voted against Labour in 1945.
Attlee was an upper middle class son of a very wealthy solicitor. London born and bred. Public school and Oxford educated. University Don before becoming a London MP.
No way would you have voted for his party!
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It is less about the personality of Starmer, and more about the policies he wants to promote.
Keith stood on the platform of support for the broad policy offer developed by Corbyn.
At the hustings he put his case on that basis, but since then has abandoned those promises.
He has also looked to expel members on the basis of a retrospective association with groups once affiliated to Labour. This is unlawful, and will be contested in court.
The Party stands on the brink of insolvency due to the mismanagement of Starmer and Evans.
The situation could hardly be worse.
Keith is the worst Labour leader in my lifetime, and I can remember the appalling Neil Kinnock.
IMO he offers nothing, and has zero credibility, neither in the red wall as Tyke says, nor in the Metropolitan areas, where he is losing support of Muslim and marginalised groups.
Keith stands for nothing, other than not being Boris.....he is shite!
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Yet BSTs experience door to door was that the loss was down to leadership not policies at the last election
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Certainly was Ldr. And no subsequent Labour leader would have had a cat in hell's chance of returning to power if they had put an arm round the shoulder of the Corbynistas. Especially ones who sent anti-Semitic tweets, or who (like Corbyn) decried the results of the inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour party.
And it's worth noting that two years into the last Parliament, Corbyn's Labour party was on 20% in the polls. Two years into this one, Starmer's party is heading towards 40%.
But yeah, Starmer is useless and Corbyn is in the process of beatification.
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BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).
In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.
That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.
Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.
Context is everything.
Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.
Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .
His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .
Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .
Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .
It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .
The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .
The people you are talking about voted for an Oxbridge educated, metropolitan elite, Old Etonian millionaire. So yes clearly they would!
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Tyke.
I swear you'd have voted against Labour in 1945.
Attlee was an upper middle class son of a very wealthy solicitor. London born and bred. Public school and Oxford educated. University Don before becoming a London MP.
No way would you have voted for his party!
Well as ever these days you couldn't be more wrong .
It's nothing to do with class it's to do with having the skills to see outside the centrist metropolitan bubble .
There wasn't anybody more upper crust than Tony Benn who I admired greatly so I'm afraid your assessment of me is massively flawed .
The Labour Party of 1945 had balls , strength and courage of conviction and knew exactly what the mood of the country was .
They won a landslide victory beating a war hero .
The current Labour Party doesn't even deserve to be in the same conversation as the class of 1945 .
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BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).
In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.
That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.
Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.
Context is everything.
Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.
Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .
His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .
Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .
Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .
It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .
The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .
The people you are talking about voted for an Oxbridge educated, metropolitan elite, Old Etonian millionaire. So yes clearly they would!
They voted to get brexit done and not be fecked over by the likes of Starmer and his second referendum .
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BST,
The full picture on the position on anti semitism in Labour awaits the release of the Forde Inquiry, which Keith has not published.
For a summary, Craig Murray did a useful overview;
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/that-leaked-labour-party-report/
The polls say nothing relevant at this stage. Perhaps a discontent with Johnson, that's all!
To say Labour are polling at around 40% is entirely meaningless...are they likely to recover seats in Scotland, and if not, how can they hope to form a majority?
The point is that the shapeshifting of Keith on HS2 is a template for how he moves his political stance.
Everything is negotiable, nothing is ethical.
If you can explain what you think the core beliefs of Keith are, and how they will find expression in policy, feel free....no-one else seems able to define it, least of all Starmer!
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BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).
In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.
That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.
Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.
Context is everything.
Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.
Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .
His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .
Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .
Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .
It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .
The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .
The people you are talking about voted for an Oxbridge educated, metropolitan elite, Old Etonian millionaire. So yes clearly they would!
They voted to get brexit done and not be fecked over by the likes of Starmer and his second referendum .
Well they appear to have been fecked over by Johnson and his frozen oven ready deal. So again clearly they will.
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And they keep getting 'fecked over' on a daily basis
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Who is this 'Keith '?
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Who is this 'Keith '?
Why do people keep asking the same question over and over again? It's been explained on here umpteen times.
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BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).
In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.
That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.
Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.
Context is everything.
Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.
I don't disagree it's absolutely valid that things can change pending context or situation. I haven't seen him answer the question though, why not be honest with his change on it? He's victim of a narrative that says he lacks conviction for what he believes, rightly or wrongly it's an easy attack line. Note he's nowhere near as bad as Boris Johnson on these things but struggles to lose that tag because it's used well. The same will be said on Tories sleaze point.
Will any of it matter come the election? Maybe not, but that point is now only 2.5 years away so the next 18 months matters hugely.
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Panorama did a report 18 months ago on the cost increases for HS2;
https://youtu.be/LCh7WIRuT1g
Since then, the costs have skyrocketed, even without the Leeds link.
Worth listening to Doug Thornton in the vid, talking about how likely costs were underplayed.
As a business strategy, sell the idea on a false set of costings, then use sunk costs as a justification to continue.
The other standout is the HS2 CEO claiming that the Leeds extension brings benefits to support the economic case for the whole package...Hmm!
What a crock of shyte....and the weak minded fell for it!
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Just watched it what a joke,they would have had loads of issues with Archeology, St Helens well an ancient Celtic place of worship would have been a problem plus the Roman road plus the Roman paved Ford!