Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: tyke1962 on December 10, 2021, 06:46:14 am
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Looks like the government are going to need the support of Labour to get through parliament next week the Plan B regulations .
Over 30 Tories are set to vote against the government or abstain .
Interesting to see what Starmer does here .
Does he support the measures and the party votes with the government ?
Or
Does he whip his MP's to abstain leaving Johnson to clean the mess up he's created and add another level of pressure on him ? .
Interesting ..........
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Indeed it will be interesting , especially given he has lambasted the govt time and again for their apparent lateness in implementing measures.
A good opportunity for Labour to show their true colours.
I’m sure they won’t disappoint.
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They'll back it and rightly so. They can't call for it then fail to vote for it, it lumps them in the same category as Boris and takes the story away from the PM.
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Looks like the government are going to need the support of Labour to get through parliament next week the Plan B regulations .
Over 30 Tories are set to vote against the government or abstain .
Interesting to see what Starmer does here .
Does he support the measures and the party votes with the government ?
Or
Does he whip his MP's to abstain leaving Johnson to clean the mess up he's created and add another level of pressure on him ? .
Interesting ..........
Either way tyke, I get the feeling that you will lambast them anyway, whichway do you think they should vote?
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Imagine a House of Commons that does not support these measures, only then to witness and preside over an exponential rise in cases with all that may bring.
The govt seem to be doing a pretty good job of self harming at the moment, but this would be another level. Political suicide.
Surely there can only be one outcome on tues.?
The vote for this should have nothing to do with Xmas parties, as emotive as that may be.
My concern is the opposition use it to kick the govt while they are down. Which could be very costly for all.
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Imagine a House of Commons that does not support these measures, only then to witness and preside over an exponential rise in cases with all that may bring.
The govt seem to be doing a pretty good job of self harming at the moment, but this would be another level. Political suicide.
Surely there can only be one outcome on tues.?
The vote for this should have nothing to do with Xmas parties, as emotive as that may be.
My concern is the opposition use it to kick the govt while they are down. Which could be very costly for all.
They’ll support it, they’ve supported every other measure and rightly so. But people like tyke will use that as a stick to bash Labour, thats why I ask him which way does he think they should vote? Labour could ofcourse use the tory trick of saying they will abstain, but if they did watch the Tory lovers come out and condemn that
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They should abstain. There is no need whatsoever for these restrictions. Where is the evidence that Omicron is a big problem? Even in South Africa with their poor vaccination figures it's no big deal.
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Those contracting omicron in SA are predominantly younger.
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They should abstain. There is no need whatsoever for these restrictions. Where is the evidence that Omicron is a big problem? Even in South Africa with their poor vaccination figures it's no big deal.
Come back in 2 months and revisit this comment.
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Politics and self gratification, or what is best for the country and its parties supporters has always been a hard call for all the political parties, but Labour have to be careful here they will be going against and effecting their core voters the most if they back the government, Hmm what to do?
The Reform party should make a big statement stating their opposition to the government stance and they could stand to gain the most from the situation.
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The shadow health Secretary Wes streeting, has said they will be voting for the measures, “putting public health first” according to the bbc website just now.
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The shadow health Secretary Wes streeting, has said they will be voting for the measures, “putting public health first” according to the bbc website just now.
And rightly so, it will give a bit of a free pass to the closet Tories to bash Labour with, but doing the right thing by the public trumps party politics everytime
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I will want to see a list of the names of the tories who abstain or vote against.
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Of course Labour will back this, because in the grown up world, you don't play politics with an enemy that kills 1000 of our fellow citizens a week. The fact that the question is even being asked is repellent.
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Of course Labour will back this, because in the grown up world, you don't play politics with an enemy that kills 1000 of our fellow citizens a week. The fact that the question is even being asked is repellent.
I get that some labour supporters passionately want to beat the other side. But they won't win an election with that approach. That's why kier Starmer has a chance. He may infuriate the left a little but he's taking an approach that attracts those in the middle a bit more.
The polling giving labour a lead was interesting. That's caused not by an increase in labour votes but Tory voters indicating they're undecided. Labour will know this, they don't want to be bulked in with the mistakes Boris is making by making their own.
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If the shoe was on the other foot, does anyone think the Labour occupants of no ten would not have transgressed in some way shape or form last Xmas?
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If the shoe was on the other foot, does anyone think the Labour occupants of no ten would not have transgressed in some way shape or form last Xmas?
I guess not NR, they didn't do it last year in opposition so why would they do it as a government?
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If the shoe was on the other foot, does anyone think the Labour occupants of no ten would not have transgressed in some way shape or form last Xmas?
What makes you think that? Millions of us did without Xmas parties last year. Why do you think Labour under Starmer would have thought themselves above those requirements? Is there any evidence that Starmer has similar standards to Johnson? Does he lie regularly? Has he ever been investigated for corruption? Had he ever been sacked...twice...for dishonesty? Has he ever refused to acknowledge how many kids he has fathered? Had he ever left his wife to deal with cancer, so he could shack up with his latest mistress?
I genuinely don't understand where this "they're all as bad as each other" attitude comes from.
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Some just wish labour was as bad as the tories, it saves having to explain why they support a dishonest incompetent rabble.
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They should abstain. There is no need whatsoever for these restrictions. Where is the evidence that Omicron is a big problem? Even in South Africa with their poor vaccination figures it's no big deal.
Come back in 2 months and revisit this comment.
Fine by me.
No disrespect intended here, but are you really that scared about this whole situation? We can't just sit at home forever, who's going to pay for it all? Life goes on and there are risks in everything we do. We were told get your jabs to get your freedoms back. Well i've done that, wear a mask done that. How long are we expected to hide with our collective heads under the duvet? As i say i'm not disrespecting you but i feel you're going a bit over the top over covid.
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How many Labour MPs or former MPs have been jailed or received suspended sentences in the last ten years?
Labour led Electoral fraud in East and West Ham earlier this year?
I could write a list.
A big list.
Both parties have rotten eggs. The tories ones just happen to be at the top at the moment.
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How many Labour MPs or former MPs have been jailed or received suspended sentences in the last ten years?
Labour led Electoral fraud in East and West Ham earlier this year?
I could write a list.
A big list.
Both parties have rotten eggs. The tories ones just happen to be at the top at the moment.
It's your story NR gives us your list
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How many Labour MPs or former MPs have been jailed or received suspended sentences in the last ten years?
Labour led Electoral fraud in East and West Ham earlier this year?
I could write a list.
A big list.
Both parties have rotten eggs. The tories ones just happen to be at the top at the moment.
That's not the point though is it? It's not about graft and illegality down the ranks. As you say, there will always be some like that in nay group. The point here is that for the first time in modern history, we have a pathological liar, cheat and fraud at the very top of the pole. And it is a worrying sign of how normalised his behaviour has become that you seem to assume that the leadership of the other side would be just as bad.
I've been saying this for years. If you lazily say "they are all the same" you've lost the leverage to hold to task the truly immoral and corrupt. They know they can get away with it because they won't be judged if people just assume that all politicians are amoral and corrupt. That's why you end up with true criminals like Berlusconi and Trump in power, or our own Poundland version.
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What’s the point?
I’m happy I have a balanced view of left and right wing politics in this country.
I also recognise, that no matter what, some will always be biased to one or the other.
The Tory party are doing a very good job of shooting the selves in the foot currently.
Something the Labour Party has been guilty of previously and if anyone is in denial about this, then this really is a pointless chat.
Kier starmer himself has been accused by his very own of being dishonest. He has branded the Labour Party as being that “of business”. Supporting capitalist ideals. Ones which strike at the very heart of the working man that the Labour movement was built on.
If I have to write lists, then you have clearly been absent from keeping abreast of current affairs for the adult years of your life.
But I will give you these snippets.
Kier starmers 10 pledges he made to Labour members only last year. Remember those? Here are two of them.
Income tax rise promised. Yet when sunak announced the same starmer called for his mps to abstain on the matter.
Common ownership. When asked on Andrew Marr show about if he would nationalise the big six energy companies. He replied no.
Most dishonourably of all, starmer inflicted the greatest injustice on his predecessor, when he chose to suspend him for remarks which some allege were agreed in advance. Starmer has been proven time and again to say different things to differing audiences at different moments. Un lucky for him, he did it all on tv and radio.
He has no more credibility that Johnson IMO.
The main diff between the two, is Johnson is a blundering idiot, whereas starmer has a little bit of nous about him.
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Normal I’m not convinced KS has got a bit of nous
He’s very good at saying that everything is not good enough without offering alternatives
I personally think a major problem with the Labour Party that is an advantage to the tories is KS isn’t up to the job and they have no obvious replacement
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Normal I’m not convinced KS has got a bit of nous
He’s very good at saying that everything is not good enough without offering alternatives
I personally think a major problem with the Labour Party that is an advantage to the tories is KS isn’t up to the job and they have no obvious replacement
What's the point of an opposition if they aren't coming up with any different ideas to the government?
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What do you expect? Starmer's a prosecutor. He only knows how to tell people they are wrong, not how to be right!
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If the shoe was on the other foot, does anyone think the Labour occupants of no ten would not have transgressed in some way shape or form last Xmas?
Archetypal whataboutery!!
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Labour should back a Plan B if it is thought through, reflects accurately the scientific advice, and will reduce significantly the impact of the Omicron variant.
Bozo has cobbled together a Plan B hybrid which is irrational, and does not reflect the science.
Nowhere do Sage say;
"Work from home, but go to parties",
"Wear a mask in Tesco, but not in the pub",
"Do the utmost to prevent spreading by not going to work, but do not get paid for income lost".
It is complete shit, just to distract from the other shit.
There is no reason for Labour to support these half measures. Starmer should oppose these measures as being nowhere near what the science advises.
If Labour support this nonsense, it is to help keep Coco clowning for a bit longer.......pathetic!
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Labour should back a Plan B if it is thought through, reflects accurately the scientific advice, and will reduce significantly the impact of the Omicron variant.
Bozo has cobbled together a Plan B hybrid which is irrational, and does not reflect the science.
Nowhere do Sage say;
"Work from home, but go to parties",
"Wear a mask in Tesco, but not in the pub",
"Do the utmost to prevent spreading by not going to work, but do not get paid for income lost".
It is complete shit, just to distract from the other shit.
There is no reason for Labour to support these half measures. Starmer should oppose these measures as being nowhere near what the science advises.
If Labour support this nonsense, it is to help keep Coco clowning for a bit longer.......pathetic!
Could Labour put an amendment in to try and get some sense into any restrictions
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Labour should back a Plan B if it is thought through, reflects accurately the scientific advice, and will reduce significantly the impact of the Omicron variant.
Bozo has cobbled together a Plan B hybrid which is irrational, and does not reflect the science.
Nowhere do Sage say;
"Work from home, but go to parties",
"Wear a mask in Tesco, but not in the pub",
"Do the utmost to prevent spreading by not going to work, but do not get paid for income lost".
It is complete shit, just to distract from the other shit.
There is no reason for Labour to support these half measures. Starmer should oppose these measures as being nowhere near what the science advises.
If Labour support this nonsense, it is to help keep Coco clowning for a bit longer.......pathetic!
Could Labour put an amendment in to try and get some sense into any restrictions
I don't believe the type of law that it is can be amended in a vote. They can of course make it clear what their regulations would be in more detail (unlikely as it wouldn't be popular).
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You think this is controversial wait until Plan C comes out.
Being discussed by COBRA now with intention to announce it 29th December according to rumours.
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Surely not. Johnson denied any knowledge of Plan C today.
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We will be in lockdown come the New Year, if not before
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Looks like the government are going to need the support of Labour to get through parliament next week the Plan B regulations .
Over 30 Tories are set to vote against the government or abstain .
Interesting to see what Starmer does here .
Does he support the measures and the party votes with the government ?
Or
Does he whip his MP's to abstain leaving Johnson to clean the mess up he's created and add another level of pressure on him ? .
Interesting ..........
Either way tyke, I get the feeling that you will lambast them anyway, whichway do you think they should vote?
My own view given I'm not in favour of any more restrictions what so ever is that he should whip his MP's to abstain .
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Looks like the government are going to need the support of Labour to get through parliament next week the Plan B regulations .
Over 30 Tories are set to vote against the government or abstain .
Interesting to see what Starmer does here .
Does he support the measures and the party votes with the government ?
Or
Does he whip his MP's to abstain leaving Johnson to clean the mess up he's created and add another level of pressure on him ? .
Interesting ..........
Either way tyke, I get the feeling that you will lambast them anyway, whichway do you think they should vote?
My own view given I'm not in favour of any more restrictions what so ever is that he should whip his MP's to abstain .
Yep I’d agree with that Tyke
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Labour should back a Plan B if it is thought through, reflects accurately the scientific advice, and will reduce significantly the impact of the Omicron variant.
Bozo has cobbled together a Plan B hybrid which is irrational, and does not reflect the science.
Nowhere do Sage say;
"Work from home, but go to parties",
"Wear a mask in Tesco, but not in the pub",
"Do the utmost to prevent spreading by not going to work, but do not get paid for income lost".
It is complete shit, just to distract from the other shit.
There is no reason for Labour to support these half measures. Starmer should oppose these measures as being nowhere near what the science advises.
If Labour support this nonsense, it is to help keep Coco clowning for a bit longer.......pathetic!
Looks like you are already making up scenarios to satisfy your distaste for someone you do not have a replacement for Albie.
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Surely not. Johnson denied any knowledge of Plan C today.
Possibly why he had Gove lead the COBRA meeting then!
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Looks like the government are going to need the support of Labour to get through parliament next week the Plan B regulations .
Over 30 Tories are set to vote against the government or abstain .
Interesting to see what Starmer does here .
Does he support the measures and the party votes with the government ?
Or
Does he whip his MP's to abstain leaving Johnson to clean the mess up he's created and add another level of pressure on him ? .
Interesting ..........
Either way tyke, I get the feeling that you will lambast them anyway, whichway do you think they should vote?
My own view given I'm not in favour of any more restrictions what so ever is that he should whip his MP's to abstain .
Yep I’d agree with that Tyke
Presumably it would be asking too much of Keith to come up with a Plan C .
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Syd,
"Making up scenarios".....you are going to have to explain, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Labour supporting Bozo and and silly plan is not in the public interest, is it?
If you reckon it is, please set it out.
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Syd,
"Making up scenarios".....you are going to have to explain, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Labour supporting Bozo and and silly plan is not in the public interest, is it?
If you reckon it is, please set it out.
Let me explain ALbie, a scenario is a 'something' that hasn't happened yet
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But Labour have said that they will support Boris, Syd.
Thangam Debonnaire has been on TV saying that is exactly their position.
Just very odd, and a complete misunderstanding of the political dynamics.
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But Labour have said that they will support Boris, Syd.
Thangam Debonnaire has been on TV saying that is exactly their position.
Just very odd, and a complete misunderstanding of the political dynamics.
It still hasn't happened yet, with the latest figures coming from cobra and the predictions, things may change Albie, although we could just hope for the worst and blame it all on labour.
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It's strange behaviour Albie, trying your level best to blame the opposition for the state the country is in.
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Syd,
Stop being silly.
Labour have confirmed that they will support Plan B.
Streeting was on R4 at lunchtime saying just that.
The question is about whether Labour have properly understood the implications of doing so.
When your opponent is about to make a major error, you stand aside and make sure that they "own it", so they can't say later that Labour would do the same.
It is not about "blaming the opposition for the state of the country", it is about making sure that Bozo takes the rap.
There are further implications for union funding on the back of this.
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But Labour have said that they will support Boris, Syd.
Thangam Debonnaire has been on TV saying that is exactly their position.
Just very odd, and a complete misunderstanding of the political dynamics.
Just the opposite Albie. This vote will split the Tories and enrage the ones who vote against it. Even more when they learn Johnson is also about to cave in to the EU on the NI protocol. So he will forever have enemies on his own benches - never a good idea.
It also makes it interesting for a future leadership contest. Did they or did they not support this vote?
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Syd,
Stop being silly.
Labour have confirmed that they will support Plan B.
Streeting was on R4 at lunchtime saying just that.
The question is about whether Labour have properly understood the implications of doing so.
When your opponent is about to make a major error, you stand aside and make sure that they "own it", so they can't say later that Labour would do the same.
It is not about "blaming the opposition for the state of the country", it is about making sure that Bozo takes the rap.
There are further implications for union funding on the back of this.
And what will you be saying if they don't support it Albie, go Starmer?
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The ABC Oz gov't broadcaster does a survey (Vote Compass) before each election, you tick the boxes for what you want, it spits out result of what parties and candidates support.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-11/vote-compass-federal-election-2019/10731602
It's likely there is a similar one done in the UK, there is one in Canada too. It throws up some interesting results.
''Political parties and their voters don't always see eye to eye on immigration, Vote Compass finds''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-24/vote-compass-election-immigration-asylum-seekers/11038070
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Politics is quite funny really, I keep reading about what people want from their government as far as health care, retirement care, job security, a fair go, a better society etc and then get admonishment for supporting a party most likely to provide it.
On the same hand you look at those that support a government that strongly shouts about smaller government, less taxes but can't stop itself from placing the burden on those that can least afford it, can someone explain how this will bring about a better society.
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But Labour have said that they will support Boris, Syd.
Thangam Debonnaire has been on TV saying that is exactly their position.
Just very odd, and a complete misunderstanding of the political dynamics.
Just the opposite Albie. This vote will split the Tories and enrage the ones who vote against it. Even more when they learn Johnson is also about to cave in to the EU on the NI protocol. So he will forever have enemies on his own benches - never a good idea.
It also makes it interesting for a future leadership contest. Did they or did they not support this vote?
Yes, Wilts, the vote will split the Tories.
It has already happened, and that is precisely the reason Labour should not get involved.
It is a tactical error to support Boris, leave him to stew in his own juices.
Plan B is ludicrous, and with Omicron doubling every 2 days it will be obsolete before the end of next week.
Much better to get on the front foot and support the public health messaging from the scientific community. Supporting a HoC vote for inadequate measures is extremely short sighted IMO.
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And then leave Labour wide open to the accusation that they voted against measures to limit the spread of Omicron.
I sometimes wonder if you really want Labour to lose.
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BST,
No, absolutely not.
I did not say vote against, I said abstain.
Massive difference, because Labour need to back public health measures, not support pointless gestures like Plan B which will achieve nothing.
Make Johnson own his mistake...this is ground zero in political management.
Sorry if you don't get this, but I promise you Plan B will be dead in the water next week.
Let's see!
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Apologies, you did say abstain. My mistake. And I agree that Plan B will be dead soon. We will be in some form of lockdown by New Year.
But I think you are over analysing this. If Labour abstain and Plan B falls, then we have to go into hard lockdown it doesn't take a genius to see what the Tory attack line will be. No one will care that Labour abstained because Plan B wasn't strong enough.
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The virus will do what it wants regardless of these measures .
If you think it's right that you need to prove your covid credentials just to watch a football match in this country then I don't really know what to say anymore .
In my opinion these measures are not just about a virus , it's starting to go way beyond that .
Don't even get me started on mandatory vaccinations .
Extremely slippery slope and Labour will sign up to it .
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21 months in and people are still talking absolute nonsense like this.
"The virus will do what it wants regardless of these measures ."
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21 months in and people are still talking absolute nonsense like this.
"The virus will do what it wants regardless of these measures ."
If you can't see the dead cat that was thrown on the table to shift you away from the Downing Street party then I don't really know what to say .
I'm not a covid denier or an anti vaxer and I'm double jabbed and will have the booster next week .
As I've said on another thread on this subject enough is enough they are on camera literally laughing at you and still you comply .
Words fail me .
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Tyke
I'm listening to the scientists, not to the politicians.
The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine have been bang on the money in modelling the spread over 2021. A very good friend of mine is closely involved in that effort and he's one of the sharpest minds I know.
They are now saying the most optimistic outcome over the winter is another 25k deaths. Worst case is 75k deaths and NHS running out of capacity.
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Tyke
I'm listening to the scientists, not to the politicians.
The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine have been bang on the money in modelling the spread over 2021. A very good friend of mine is closely involved in that effort and he's one of the sharpest minds I know.
They are now saying the most optimistic outcome over the winter is another 25k deaths. Worst case is 75k deaths and NHS running out of capacity.
Yes Billy and we've heard it all before haven't we ?
Not one of those Nightingale hospitals was ever needed .
Whilst the whole bloody focus on this thing carries on other illnesses go undetected and that's without mentioning mental health .
These people will not take my freedoms away and drip feed me the road to authoritarianism .
I'm totally convinced there's more going on here than perhaps you realise .
I'd also just like to say laws only work with consent from the public , there is no majority consent given last week's events .
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Just to clarify why I feel so strongly about this and why it may not come across too well especially if people have lost family and close friends to Covid .
I've seen a Police State in this country before in the strike , I've seen what the state is capable of when it has an agenda .
I've seen the Police become the government's paramilitary wing and I've seen people arrested for simply crossing the border in to another county .
I've seen the BBC deliberately frame Orgreave to suit the government agenda and I'm still waiting for the papers to be released in to the public domain .
I'm not a covid denier or a conspiracy theorist I'm just someone whose lived a life with some previous .
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Just to clarify why I feel so strongly about this and why it may not come across too well especially if people have lost family and close friends to Covid .
I've seen a Police State in this country before in the strike , I've seen what the state is capable of when it has an agenda .
I've seen the Police become the government's paramilitary wing and I've seen people arrested for simply crossing the border in to another county .
I've seen the BBC deliberately frame Orgreave to suit the government agenda and I'm still waiting for the papers to be released in to the public domain .
I'm not a covid denier or a conspiracy theorist I'm just someone whose lived a life with some previous .
Crossing the County border, for what purpose?
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Just to clarify why I feel so strongly about this and why it may not come across too well especially if people have lost family and close friends to Covid .
I've seen a Police State in this country before in the strike , I've seen what the state is capable of when it has an agenda .
I've seen the Police become the government's paramilitary wing and I've seen people arrested for simply crossing the border in to another county .
I've seen the BBC deliberately frame Orgreave to suit the government agenda and I'm still waiting for the papers to be released in to the public domain .
I'm not a covid denier or a conspiracy theorist I'm just someone whose lived a life with some previous .
Crossing the County border, for what purpose?
To try and persuade people by any means possible that by continuing to work placed the whole mining Industry under huge threat including themselves .
Which is exactly how it played out .
Now time is a great thing and looking back in 2021 it doesn't do this the justice it deserves .
Thatcher's Britain was to be thrown on the scrap heap with little or no chance of finding anything else for a significantly long time .
If that escapes you then unfortunately there's little I can do other than tell you how I saw it .
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .
The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .
A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .
I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .
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Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .
The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .
A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .
I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .
The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .
The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .
A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .
I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .
The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.
I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .
The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .
A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .
I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .
The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.
I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .
Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .
The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .
A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .
I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .
The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.
I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .
Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.
What completely passes you by is your Utopia isn't my Utopia Sydney .
The truth is as far as I'm concerned is that it's like asking me to chose between losing six nil under the Tories or losing five nil under the present Labour Party .
In short it's hardly worth the bother so I don't pin my colours to the mast of either .
Once you step away from the tribalism it's really not that hard to see the game .
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .
The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .
A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .
I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .
The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.
I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .
Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.
What completely passes you by is your Utopia isn't my Utopia Sydney .
The truth is as far as I'm concerned is that it's like asking me to chose between losing six nil under the Tories or losing five nil under the present Labour Party .
In short it's hardly worth the bother so I don't pin my colours to the mast of either .
Once you step away from the tribalism it's really not that hard to see the game .
So after years of listening to this, the result is you, Tyke the political scientist can't tell the difference between labour and tories.
You need to find another hobby, you suck at politics.
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Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.
Indeed, how much of it though is a criticism of Boris Johnson rather than the parties themselves. Labour had similar sized leads just 6 months prior to the last election remember.
More news about the so called quiz/party tomorrow so that won't help him. I don't think in isolation there's much actually wrong with that, but it won't help a pm who's had a totally bad number of errors and poor control.
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Gosh, labour's lead is doubling faster than the virus
The smart thing to do Sydney would be to pull the Labour candidate from the Shropshire by election next week and make it a two way contest .
The locals historically won't flip to Labour but they will vote Lib Dems as a protest vote and landing Bunter another blow .
A defeat in parliament next week and a defeat or just retaining the seat may just see him gone in the new year .
I'd kindly suggest Labour could do with making pacts with the Dems , you need an ally .
The really smart thing to do for those that want a better country, a better society, a fully funded NHS etc etc Tyke would be would be to vote for them.
I only speak of somebody who doesn't have necessarily a dog in this fight and can possibly look at it with less tribalism .
Then you need to go back and read your own dia-tribe over the past whenever, as your political petticoat hangs out over your shoes. You seriously need to mature Tyke and show that you can grow and accept that everything cannot possibly go the way you would wish and you can accept necessary change and that many roads can lead to Rome.
What completely passes you by is your Utopia isn't my Utopia Sydney .
The truth is as far as I'm concerned is that it's like asking me to chose between losing six nil under the Tories or losing five nil under the present Labour Party .
In short it's hardly worth the bother so I don't pin my colours to the mast of either .
Once you step away from the tribalism it's really not that hard to see the game .
So after years of listening to this, the result is you, Tyke the political scientist can't tell the difference between labour and tories.
You need to find another hobby, you suck at politics.
I've only lived a life Sydney and go with that experience .
My principles are all I have and they aren't for sale and I will die one day as we all will and that I stuck to rightly or wrongly to what I believed in .
It sits fine with me which to honest is the only conversation worthy .
You are perfectly entitled to remove the members of your favourite band but when they play the same music its probably a bit of fools gold .
But you suit yourself .
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Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.
Indeed, how much of it though is a criticism of Boris Johnson rather than the parties themselves. Labour had similar sized leads just 6 months prior to the last election remember.
More news about the so called quiz/party tomorrow so that won't help him. I don't think in isolation there's much actually wrong with that, but it won't help a pm who's had a totally bad number of errors and poor control.
What escapes the Labour Party is that whilst John Major's government was sleazy he wasn't .
That's a significant break from history given Starmer isn't Blair and hasn't a vision or a brand that offers the country an alternative .
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Opinium have just published a poll with Labour having its highest lead with them since 2014.
Indeed, how much of it though is a criticism of Boris Johnson rather than the parties themselves. Labour had similar sized leads just 6 months prior to the last election remember.
More news about the so called quiz/party tomorrow so that won't help him. I don't think in isolation there's much actually wrong with that, but it won't help a pm who's had a totally bad number of errors and poor control.
A lot happened in the last 6 months before the lady election. I predicted that Labour were in big trouble because there was no way they could unify over Brexit, while the Tories could easily by electing Johnson.
Of course there's a long way to the next one. The point about the current polls is they show how profoundly people have lost faith with Johnson. Despite some folk thinking Sunak would turn that around, that remains to be seen. And as I've said before, there's not a huge amount of obvious good news coming for the Govt in the medium future.
We'll see.
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We have all seen how the polls have proven to be wrong in the past.
If a downwards trend continues then the Tories will remove Johnson from his post, appoint Sunak as the new PM.
Those who believe that the polls are the gospel will see things rapidly change but probably won’t post about it.
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To me that broadcast earlier was the last roll of the dice from a man that knows the game is up for him, Thursdays by election should seal his fate
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It's telling that there was no erm erm wiff waff going on
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That to me looked like a serious Boris.
Which is a first.
Summat has him worried.
And I don’t think it’s Xmas parties.
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BST,
"The Tory party IS in disarray. There's talk of 100 head bangers voting against the Govt this week.
Labour has nothing to gain by siding with them. The most important thing is that it would send the wrong message to the country at a time it needs people to be disciplined and sensible again. It's vital that the swivel eyed loons on the far right of the Tory party are put in their boxes over this.
But just on the party politics, when Omicron runs out of control, imagine Johnson pointing at Starmer and saying "you refused to vote to get this under control."
It would be idiotic for Labour not to vote with the Govt, both morally and self-interestedly."
Billy,
Your last sentence does not make sense after what you said before.
What you suggest is a major error of political strategy.
Labour should be loud about the failings of Plan B, and make the debate about the most effective measures to bring in now.
Signing up to a plan that keeps hospitality open while infections are doubling every 2 days is completely irrational. Tories will just say that you fully supported this plan when it fails badly, as it will.
Starmer has the chance to press Bozo to support additional measures, including financial support for hospitality businesses which need to close temporarily.
He needs to make sure that trade union members interests are supported throughout the epidemic.
Get on the right side of the argument, and stay there.
The problem is that Starmer has no policy of his own, on anything really.
He tends to conservative opportunistic positions, and has no clear public interest story to tell.
That story is there, waiting to be used.
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Albie.
As I said before, you're being way too subtle.
If Labour don't support these measures, when the Omricron wave breaks, the Tories won't say "Ah yes. You were right. Plan B wasn't enough." They will beat Labour over the head for not supporting the moves. And we can see in here how successful the Captain Hindsight jibe is, even though it has zero substance.
Why give the Tories that free hit?
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BST,
You know very well, deep down, that Starmer is making a mistake due to a complete lack of political nous.
Admitting it would be embarrassing, so keep up appearances eh!
What Labour are about to support is going to put NHS staff, and other front facing service workers, at greater risk than would be the case with additional measures.
That much is obvious, but Keith is so risk averse he just can't take a chance on an ethical position.
So he backs Boris with loony Plan B in the vote, and then calls on Tory MP's to get rid of the clown because he is unfit for office.
Join the dots on those 2 positions, then search for integrity.
Not good, is it?
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Albie.
Probably pointless saying it, but I do actually write what I think. Even when talking to someone who uses stupid insult names for politicians, indicating that he'd not agree with him over what 2 plus 2 equalled.
The real delusion here is thinking that anything Labour do would change Govt policy for the better.
Frankly, your implication that Labour are in any way responsible for the impending disaster is disgraceful. But not surprising coming from a position where you would criticise Starmer if he found the key to world peace and a cure for cancer, because he's not St Jeremy the Immaculate.
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BST,
Oh dear....more irrelevant nonsense to bury the issue.
Anything to avoid the point.
Nobody is saying Labour will change Tory policy, the only people who can do that are the Tories themselves.
What Labour can do is put an alternative forward, to change the nature of the debate.
Starmer continually accepts the Tory definition of an issue, then looks to position inside that narrative.
That means that you have surrendered the terms of the discussion, and are reacting to that framework, rather than shaping it.
It is called the Overton window, in media speak.
What I look for is a policy position that is based on socialist first principles.
It is not the role of Labour to be Tory lite, tweaking around the edges.
"Frankly, your implication that Labour are in any way responsible for the impending disaster is disgraceful."....this is only in your imagination.
Labour are NOT responsible in any way for the position created by Tory mismanagement.
They are fully responsible for the failure to develop a different story, one which reflects the interests of the trade unions and Labour supporters.
Starmer deserves to be criticised when he abandons the pledges he made to get elected, then replaces them with nothing of substance. He is falling short.
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Plan B could be irrelevant in a week or two. If the streets of London on Friday and Sat were anything to go by. They were absolutely rammed . So much so, they had to shut the gates to stop people trying to get on the tube at Oxford Circus, Leicester sq and Piccadilly Circus due to overcrowding sat teatime. Plus it was mild and wet. Perfect conditions for virus spreading. Mask wearing was sparse also.
Lockdown next I feel.
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BST,
Oh dear....more irrelevant nonsense to bury the issue.
Anything to avoid the point.
Nobody is saying Labour will change Tory policy, the only people who can do that are the Tories themselves.
What Labour can do is put an alternative forward, to change the nature of the debate.
Starmer continually accepts the Tory definition of an issue, then looks to position inside that narrative.
That means that you have surrendered the terms of the discussion, and are reacting to that framework, rather than shaping it.
It is called the Overton window, in media speak.
What I look for is a policy position that is based on socialist first principles.
It is not the role of Labour to be Tory lite, tweaking around the edges.
"Frankly, your implication that Labour are in any way responsible for the impending disaster is disgraceful."....this is only in your imagination.
Labour are NOT responsible in any way for the position created by Tory mismanagement.
They are fully responsible for the failure to develop a different story, one which reflects the interests of the trade unions and Labour supporters.
Starmer deserves to be criticised when he abandons the pledges he made to get elected, then replaces them with nothing of substance. He is falling short.
Albie
You have a strange concept of how political dynamics work.
Labour aren't going to change any dynamic on this. Positions are too firmly entrenched.
Look at this time last year. Starmer was absolutely on the money, repeatedly pointing out that the Govt was behind the curve.
Johnson hit him with accusations of wanting lockdown.
We got lockdown. Too late. 75,000 people died.
And the political result? Starmer was labelled Captain Hindsight. His poll ratings slumped and Labour fell behind the Tories. THAT was the result of trying to lead the dynamic.
Be honest. You're going to criticise Starmer whatever he does aren't you? Especially with Labour stretching ahead in the polls. The Corbynista Left is facing its worst nightmare and has to pile onto Starmer.
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Billy,
What a council of despair.....Labour can't change the debate, so don't try, that is the size of it for you.
Stay within the box allocated to you, doff your cap to the masters!
I have a good handle on political dynamics, Billy, with many years experience in a number of related roles.
Your misunderstanding of polls leads you up the garden path again.
Once more, they tell you only of a general disquiet with Johnson, nothing more.
It is common in mid term to indicate a general unhappiness by witholding consent, it does not map directly into voting actions in 2 years time. No-one with a background in polling would claim that.
New leader, clean sweep......polls revert.
You seem obsessed with "Corbynistas", for some reason. Corbyn has gone.
Starmer stood on a platform supporting key policies, which he has discarded. He is a fraud.
Once again, what really matters are the policies.
It helps if the person fronting the party has a personality and a clear political identity.
The personal polling for Starmer suggests he has not cut through on either of these factors.
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Starmer has higher personal approval ratings that Corbyn ever did at ANY time in his reign. And yet you laud Corbyn's election performance in 2017.
I suggest you fundamentally misunderstand the dynamics of Opposition.
Opposition parties don't control the agenda. Opposition parties only EVER win because of the incompetence of the Government. The role of Opposition parties is not to set out, years in advance, detailed policies. No Opposition party ever does that. The role is to play mood music. To set themselves up as the antithesis of the problems the Govt has.
So Thatcher didn't say in 1976 that she'd implement policies that would result in 15% interest rates and 4million on the dole. She just repeatedly pointed out Labour's problems with inflation, unemployment and the Unions.
Blair didn't give a detailed policy list in 1994. He set himself up as fresh, dynamic and in control against a Tory party that was ripping itself apart.
Cameron didn't say in 2008 that they would introduce voodoo economic policies that would give us the worst decade of growth for 200 years. He sat on the sidelines and sniped at Brown about the debt. Relentlessly.
Opposition isn't about detail. It's absolutely not about detailed policy. It is about determining the existential weakness of the Govt and showing that you are strong on that theme.
And the existential threat to this Govt, whoever leads it, is that they stink of dishonesty and entitlement. Starmer doesn't win by his tax plans or his plans for homelessness. He wins by being the antithesis of Johnson's cabal. And THEN you can implement policies to make the changes that need to be made.
That's the bit that the Left never get. They are so passionate for their policies, they never understand that the overwhelming majority of the electorate don't share that. And that by concentrating on policies, when a Govt is deeply unpopular, you give the Govt a rope to pull themselves out. By changing the terms of the debate.
What Starmer needs to do on the Plan B topic is to not give Johnson a "You refused to support us when we could have defeated Omicron" line. Labour won't change Govt policy by abstaining. They only leave themselves open to accusations of dithering or worse. So there is simply nothing positive to come out of abstaining for Starmer.
Which of course, many on the Left wouldn't shed tears over.
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Ks will be starring in his very own public address tonight at 7pm on bbc.
A United front perhaps. .?
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There's an obvious line for Starmer which combines doing the right thing for the country, with party self-interest.
He has to say that he understands why people wouldn't trust Johnson, but that this isn't about Johnson's trustworthiness. This is about the underlying science. And it is vital that people get their jabs and be careful.
He should say that Plan B will not be enough, but Labour will vote for it because of the message that opposing it would send.
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Re: Starmer isn't cutting through.
https://mobile.twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1470334851689627650
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Billy,
Johnson is not going to be Tory leader at the election....what is it about that you don't understand.
"Doing the right thing for the country", err, supporting people going to Xmas parties, going to the pub without a mask, not offering financial support to those wanting to do the right thing.
The underlying science does not support any of this. Read the papers to government from the public health community.
Jesus wept!
Is this the best you can do.
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Albie.
I'll ask again.
What is the mechanism whereby Labour gets the Govt to change policy?
I KNOW what the underpinning science says. I'm talking about political reality.
How do they do it? And how do they avoid being unfairly pilloried like they were last year when they were correct on the policy?
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BST,
You say that you understand the science, then advocate a political response which contradicts the science.
It is nonsense, I'm afraid.
The best strategy for Labour is to allow maximum leverage for the Tory dissenters by abstaining.
At the moment around 75 are thought to be voting against Jonno. That is within grasp of a defeat if Labour do not back him up.
Labour backing Boris makes some Tory doubters less likely to act if they know it will pass anyway.
Boris has bet the farm on the booster roll out in the next month.
Today we have seen the website crash, and GP's are saying they were not consulted on how to roll out the programme.
Boosters are the right call, but like everything Boris, he has not worked out the logistics.
Even with a fair wind, the timeline of a month takes us way beyond the critical point of intervention.
Boosters are not 100% effective, and will take time to kick in.
It is vital that other containment measures kick in straight away, or the UK will be chasing its tail again.
The real issue is that Boris has lost all moral authority to ask for those additional containment measures, because of his farcical rule breaches.
Labour have a window of opportunity to claim that space of moral authority by backing the public health community.
Former Tory Minister David Gauke writes about it in New Statesman;
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/conservatives/2021/12/boris-johnson-has-lost-the-credibility-to-lead-britain-through-another-covid-wave
Starmer cannot see the wood for the trees, and is missing an open goal here.
He has no political antennae, and simply defaults to Tory orthodoxy.
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You say that you understand the science, then advocate a political response which contradicts the science.
It is nonsense, I'm afraid.
I'm not sure how to begin responding to that. This is the real world, not Plato's Republic.
Politics is about getting the best possible outcome. Not aiming for perfection. It requires messiness and compromise. The Left never did get that.
At the moment around 75 are thought to be voting against Jonno. That is within grasp of a defeat if Labour do not back him up.
The Tories have 360 MPs. Do the maths. There is no mechanism whereby Labour can put any pressure on Johnson to change tack. Insisting there is leads you to the political suicide stance that you are proposing.
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Interesting line from that article albie.
Some on here will be apapleptic with this comment
“Personally, I would have gone further on vaccine passports (better to lock down the irresponsible unvaccinated who are making up 90 per cent of those requiring specialist care rather than the population as a whole”
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Regarding "moral authority"
There are two reasons why you might want that.
1) Morally: Because you want the best outcome for the country.
2) Self-interestedly: Because you want to boost your support.
Look back at late 2020. Labour were ahead of the curve at every step on calling for stronger measures. What was the effect?
1) Cummings claims that one reason Johnson didn't bring in a lockdown earlier is that he didn't want to be seen to be being bounced into it by Starmer. When you're dealing with a narcissistic man-child, if you want the best outcome for the country, you have to take his psyche into account. You could make a decent argument that Labour strongly calling for harder measures this time last year, bizarrely resulted in several 10s of thousands of avoidable deaths.
2) And what political benefit did Labour get for being ahead of the curve and calling for stronger measures? Zero.
So I'll ask again. What is the reasoning for arguing that Labour should oppose the current plans?
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Interesting line from that article albie.
Some on here will be apapleptic with this comment
“Personally, I would have gone further on vaccine passports (better to lock down the irresponsible unvaccinated who are making up 90 per cent of those requiring specialist care rather than the population as a whole”
And I would agree rightly so - that is a terrible piece of journalism by Gauke.
Vaccine passports should be seen as the way to ALLOW you to do something, not punish you for something. That's the only way to make them acceptable.
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Interesting line from that article albie.
Some on here will be apapleptic with this comment
“Personally, I would have gone further on vaccine passports (better to lock down the irresponsible unvaccinated who are making up 90 per cent of those requiring specialist care rather than the population as a whole”
And I would agree rightly so - that is a terrible piece of journalism by Gauke.
Vaccine passports should be seen as the way to ALLOW you to do something, not punish you for something. That's the only way to make them acceptable.
Absolutely. As much as I fundamentally disagree with the nazi Germany like by an MP this morning, he has a slight point that we shouldn't have a 'papers please' society.
It's easy to talk about labours election chances now but it is a different world in 2 years time. Covid may be a non issue indeed the Tory leader may and probably will change by then.
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Agreed BFYP.
But as I say, there's not much on the horizon that gives a warm feeling to the Govt.
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Interesting line from that article albie.
Some on here will be apapleptic with this comment
“Personally, I would have gone further on vaccine passports (better to lock down the irresponsible unvaccinated who are making up 90 per cent of those requiring specialist care rather than the population as a whole”
And I would agree rightly so - that is a terrible piece of journalism by Gauke.
Vaccine passports should be seen as the way to ALLOW you to do something, not punish you for something. That's the only way to make them acceptable.
Absolutely. As much as I fundamentally disagree with the nazi Germany like by an MP this morning, he has a slight point that we shouldn't have a 'papers please' society.
It's easy to talk about labours election chances now but it is a different world in 2 years time. Covid may be a non issue indeed the Tory leader may and probably will change by then.
Yes BFYP, if nothing else the past two years have shown how quickly things can change in two years (or indeed six months).
Starmer has only one job, to show to the public at large Labour are fit for government. Which is why he should/will vote for the measures tomorrow, not because he is supporting the government, but because they are the right thing to do for public health and to keep the public safe.
It will be interesting to see what he has to say in his piece on the tv tonight.
And of course the Tory MP who doesn't think we should live in a 'papers first' society - was all set to vote for compulsary ID for all voters at the next GE. Hmmm...
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I listened to Lammy in his interview on tv this morning.
He said that it is right to back the plan b proposal and that this isn’t a time for political point scoring …….. then promptly went int a political point scoring rant against the government.
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Agreed BFYP.
But as I say, there's not much on the horizon that gives a warm feeling to the Govt.
Absolutely not and this is why labour need to be subtle. Moan too much and they appear to be unprofessional complainers. Today they've been heavily critical of vaccines and lateral flow tests. Bad move that imo, it's two processes that have worked incredibly well (remember labour were against the very successful vaccine procurement route).
They just need to act smarter without the rants. Like it or not people do not largely engage with rants from the likes of Lammy and Raynor. Starmer being concise and objective works well and that's the approach that may see them win.
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Agreed BFYP.
But as I say, there's not much on the horizon that gives a warm feeling to the Govt.
Absolutely not and this is why labour need to be subtle. Moan too much and they appear to be unprofessional complainers. Today they've been heavily critical of vaccines and lateral flow tests. Bad move that imo, it's two processes that have worked incredibly well (remember labour were against the very successful vaccine procurement route).
They just need to act smarter without the rants. Like it or not people do not largely engage with rants from the likes of Lammy and Raynor. Starmer being concise and objective works well and that's the approach that may see them win.
This highlights what I'm talking about to Albie.
Labour were NOT against the vaccine procurement route.
Johnson and the Tories repeatedly said that Labour would have joined the EU vaccine procurement system.
No senior Labour representative ever said that. It's a lie that has gone down as a fact. People simply don't drill down into what the subtleties are. They hear big, primary colours stories.
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The trouble is Billy your and your mates drills always veer off to the left all the time and barely scratch the surface.
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Not sure Starmer would be nine points ahead of johnson if he'd taken any advice coming from Albie or tyke.
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Not sure Starmer would be nine points ahead of johnson if he'd taken any advice coming from Albie or tyke.
Starmer isn't 9 points ahead because of anything he's done of substance he's 9 points ahead because Johnson keeps fecking up .
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That gap will soon reverse when BJ gets the boot.
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Not sure Starmer would be nine points ahead of johnson if he'd taken any advice coming from Albie or tyke.
Starmer isn't 9 points ahead because of anything he's done of substance he's 9 points ahead because Johnson keeps fecking up .
according to you two he's only a short second behind hitler, so on that scale it's not so bad
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Not sure Starmer would be nine points ahead of johnson if he'd taken any advice coming from Albie or tyke.
Starmer isn't 9 points ahead because of anything he's done of substance he's 9 points ahead because Johnson keeps fecking up .
according to you two he's only a short second behind hitler, so on that scale it's not so bad
Don't be like that Syd a lead is a lead you should enjoy it while it lasts .
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Not sure Starmer would be nine points ahead of johnson if he'd taken any advice coming from Albie or tyke.
Starmer isn't 9 points ahead because of anything he's done of substance he's 9 points ahead because Johnson keeps fecking up .
according to you two he's only a short second behind hitler, so on that scale it's not so bad
Don't be like that Syd a lead is a lead you should enjoy it while it lasts .
anyway, that's enough about the real world, tell us about your candidate, when will they be born? and don't say the 25th that's already been done.
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Agreed BFYP.
But as I say, there's not much on the horizon that gives a warm feeling to the Govt.
Absolutely not and this is why labour need to be subtle. Moan too much and they appear to be unprofessional complainers. Today they've been heavily critical of vaccines and lateral flow tests. Bad move that imo, it's two processes that have worked incredibly well (remember labour were against the very successful vaccine procurement route).
They just need to act smarter without the rants. Like it or not people do not largely engage with rants from the likes of Lammy and Raynor. Starmer being concise and objective works well and that's the approach that may see them win.
This highlights what I'm talking about to Albie.
Labour were NOT against the vaccine procurement route.
Johnson and the Tories repeatedly said that Labour would have joined the EU vaccine procurement system.
No senior Labour representative ever said that. It's a lie that has gone down as a fact. People simply don't drill down into what the subtleties are. They hear big, primary colours stories.
I am not sure I agree. I seem to remember kier Starmer himself wanting the UK to remain part of the EU medicines agency and the big hoo-hah about the EU procurement programme and the UK not being in it. Remember the "missed email" saga.
I also remember the criticism of the head of the vaccine programme in the UK and how that was an awful appointment. But it wasn't in the end was it?
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Fact Check 4 News
''The party could not point us to any instance of Mr Starmer saying that he wanted us to join the EU scheme. FactCheck has been unable to find any evidence in Hansard records either''
And
''The Conservatives seem to be suggesting that being part of the EMA and adhering to EU rules would have blocked the UK from issuing its own vaccine authorisation.
But as FactCheck reported last month, the EMA and EU law already allow national regulators to temporarily authorise the supply of a vaccine in an emergency like the pandemic. That’s why the UK regulator was able to sign off the Pfizer jab in December, while we were still in the Brexit transition period and subject to EU law''
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-johnson-claims-starmer-would-have-joined-eu-vaccine-scheme
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https://youtu.be/iY3VYdNHl64
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https://youtu.be/iY3VYdNHl64
If it's not in hansard it must be fake noos bb
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Agreed BFYP.
But as I say, there's not much on the horizon that gives a warm feeling to the Govt.
Absolutely not and this is why labour need to be subtle. Moan too much and they appear to be unprofessional complainers. Today they've been heavily critical of vaccines and lateral flow tests. Bad move that imo, it's two processes that have worked incredibly well (remember labour were against the very successful vaccine procurement route).
They just need to act smarter without the rants. Like it or not people do not largely engage with rants from the likes of Lammy and Raynor. Starmer being concise and objective works well and that's the approach that may see them win.
This highlights what I'm talking about to Albie.
Labour were NOT against the vaccine procurement route.
Johnson and the Tories repeatedly said that Labour would have joined the EU vaccine procurement system.
No senior Labour representative ever said that. It's a lie that has gone down as a fact. People simply don't drill down into what the subtleties are. They hear big, primary colours stories.
I am not sure I agree. I seem to remember kier Starmer himself wanting the UK to remain part of the EU medicines agency and the big hoo-hah about the EU procurement programme and the UK not being in it. Remember the "missed email" saga.
I also remember the criticism of the head of the vaccine programme in the UK and how that was an awful appointment. But it wasn't in the end was it?
BFYP. We went through this a couple of weeks ago.
Johnson lied repeatedly about Labour's policy being to join the EU vaccine rollout. It wasn't. Ever. But clearly the mud sticks, even with intelligent people like you. Which is why he does it. And why he's had a successful career doing it.
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OK,
Bit long winded this, but I was asked.
Points raised;
The Gauke article is posted not to suggest I agree with all of it, but to show the thinking of Tories opposed to Boris.
This is the group you need to gain support to oust Johnson. Not just among MP's, but among Tory members as well.
The "moral authority" point is also about the nature of the debate going forward.
How do you get the discussion away from low grade manipulation, and on to the scientific consensus?
"And what political benefit did Labour get for being ahead of the curve and calling for stronger measures? Zero."
So you conclude Labour should not be ahead of the curve unless there is a clear political benefit.
How would you know in advance?
"So I'll ask again. What is the reasoning for arguing that Labour should oppose the current plans?"
Nobody is saying oppose...abstain!
This is because the current plan will not work, and we know that before the vote.
To support that plan knowing it cannot work is unethical, and will result in casualties that would have been avoided by better mitigation measures.
If Johnson has to rely on Labour support this time, he will be wary of having to do so again when stricter “Plan C” measures are needed, even just to close loopholes in Plan B. Better for Labour to press for Plan C now, not when it is too late. Furlough is essential to secure compliance and support, but is missing from Plan B.
"The Tories have 360 MPs. Do the maths. There is no mechanism whereby Labour can put any pressure on Johnson to change tack."
Labour are not looking to put pressure on Johnson directly, but to influence the Tory party behind him.
I do not think this vote will fail, but I think it is part of the build up of pressure on Tory backbenchers to act.
The by-election on Thursday is another factor in this.
Johnson is not going to change tack without loss of support in his own party, as I said.
Backbench rebellion is a brick in that wall.
"Starmer has only one job, to show to the public at large Labour are fit for government. Which is why he should/will vote for the measures tomorrow, not because he is supporting the government, but because they are the right thing to do for public health and to keep the public safe".
Disagree with that, Wilts.
Starmer has to keep support within the Labour movement as well, including the backing of unions giving financial support.
Failure to do this reduces political capacity to act.
The public health community do not agree that these measures are sufficient.
https://youtu.be/_3_hYBs34qc
We are in danger of incubating an unmanageable crisis that will result from Plan B.
What evidence do you have to support the claim that these plans will keep the public safe?
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Albie
Once again, I'm not arguing with you on the science.
Once again, I'll point out that being right on the science as an Opposition is of no use if you can't influence.
There is no way, at the moment, that anything like a mass of Tory MPs are going to support harder measures. Not a chance in a million. That's the hard fact of where we are today.
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https://youtu.be/iY3VYdNHl64
Come on BB, that must be faked film.
Starmer never said any of those things that he is saying at the despatch box.
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https://youtu.be/iY3VYdNHl64
So our discussion about this from the other week has gone in one ear and out the other BB?
Which bit of this are you struggling with?
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I listened to Lammy in his interview on tv this morning.
He said that it is right to back the plan b proposal and that this isn’t a time for political point scoring …….. then promptly went int a political point scoring rant against the government.
As long as Labour have the likes of Lammy in their ranks they will never win. He has his own anti British, racist agenda and everything revolves around that.
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BST,
"There is no way, at the moment, that anything like a mass of Tory MPs are going to support harder measures. Not a chance in a million. That's the hard fact of where we are today".
Yes, I agree....and that is precisely the reason Labour should argue for an improved Plan C.
The objective is not to persuade the hard of thinking Tory backbencher to back the Labour position.
It is to make sure that there is clear blue water between the parties on the way forward.
If the "freezepeach" Tories want herd immunity by default, make them own the consequences.
Labour supporting minor changes like the futile gesture of Plan B is cowardly and politically naive.
At the end of the day, the public health outcome is more important than whether Johnson hangs on for a few more mistakes.
His position will erode further with his chaotic handling of Omicron, and those same Tory backbenchers will be between a rock and a hard place when it comes to public opinion.
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Albie
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=283282.msg1115900#msg1115900
Just like in March 2020, it looks like you've called it right and I've called it wrong. Once again I've underestimated the level of insane risk this lot will take.
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https://youtu.be/iY3VYdNHl64
So our discussion about this from the other week has gone in one ear and out the other BB?
Which bit of this are you struggling with?
Yes, Starmer lied.
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Here we go again. BB's weekly requirement to make an arse of himself.
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Taken from Sky news on the debate
“ Then it's ex-minister Tim Loughton, who complains he has wrongly been included on lists of rebels and then announces he's going to vote against COVID passes and the compulsory vaccination of NHS staff. Priceless!”
I just can’t believe some of the stuff I’m reading, and don’t get me started on Desmond Swayne
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Here we go again. BB's weekly requirement to make an arse of himself.
.....And the insults begin!
What a bad loser you really are lad.
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101 Tory rebels voted against the government tonight .
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No vote for Labour ever again for me. I have let my local Labour MP know that he can shove his vote from our family. What a weak, pathetic bunch of pussies.
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101 Tory rebels voted against the government tonight .
Johnson is toast, Thursdays byelection will see him get the boot
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No vote for Labour ever again for me. I have let my local Labour MP know that he can shove his vote from our family. What a weak, pathetic bunch of pussies.
Don’t think that’ll be the most important headline coming out of these votes CDH
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No vote for Labour ever again for me. I have let my local Labour MP know that he can shove his vote from our family. What a weak, pathetic bunch of pussies.
Is there anything you actually do like?
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The Tory backwoodsmen are an utter disgrace. They are going to have thousands of lives on their hands.
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The Tory backwoodsmen are an utter disgrace. They are going to have thousands of lives on their hands.
Yes Kim Jong Un.
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USA not even remotely concerned about Omicron. Omi con more like.
British people done up like kippers and human rights abolished.
Just breaking. Covid passports will not be required in Westminster.
One rule for them and all that..
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101 Tory rebels and 36 Tory abstention’s including Tory t**t in Chief Desmond Swayne
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Thanks, BST, for the post above.
Starmer really needs to look himself in the mirror after this;
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1470838448122646541
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How many Tories would have changed their vote if labour were voting against? Maybe a few but not many, a lot of them fundamentally don't back vaccine passports. I have to be honest I'm slightly on the fence. We seem to have gone away from public choice which I don't necessarily agree with but I see why they've decided to do it.
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Pud,
Not voting against, abstaining.
Some Tories would have had second thoughts, but we will never know how many, will we?
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I suppose it could be argued there's some political guile coming in to this from Starmer .
Don't interrupt the enemy whilst he's making mistakes .
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The Tory backwoodsmen are an utter disgrace. They are going to have thousands of lives on their hands.
how will they have thousands of lives on their hands the vote passed?
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Now that is a good question bpool.
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Interesting Jeremy Corbyn opposed it, I wonder what he would have done if he'd won the election, we'll never know but interesting.
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johnson said there was no opposition to the vote in the house :)
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The key point is that the measures approved are nowhere near what is needed to deal with the potential scale of the problem.
Listen to Stephen Reicher on BBC Scotland;
https://twitter.com/i/status/1470771492455653390
The Plan B will have a very limited impact.
Close hospitality for 2 months, and pay them for loss of income.
Furlough to encourage home working.
Ban Xmas parties and unnecessary social contact.
Nobody likes these things, but needs must.
Lets have Xmas in midsummer this year!
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we do know that Albie.
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Jesus wept, this from Corbyn.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1470822969010184192
As if we are going to beat this bas**rd by unity.
This is on a par with his response when asked if he'd use nuclear weapons if there was an existential war with Russia. And he responded "My policy is for us never to get into that situation." As though anyone else had a different policy.
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A double jeopardy question, on par with asking if you still beat your wife.
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Labour are just as bad or even worse for backing this dictatorship.
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What some of them are saying is that it won't work having vaccine passports and if you go by Carlisle and Lincoln reducing capacities to 9999 they might be right
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC876yBInncBfsiknqMdHvuA
ha ha
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How on earth do they come about a figure of 10000?
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IndySage have a briefing on the minimum measures needed;
https://www.independentsage.org/emergency-statement-on-omicron-15-december-2021/
This is what Boris/Keith should have been saying, not looking to out drivel each other.
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IndySage have a briefing on the minimum measures needed;
https://www.independentsage.org/emergency-statement-on-omicron-15-december-2021/
This is what Boris/Keith should have been saying, not looking to out drivel each other.
They also said we'd have 100k cases per day after the ending of restrictions. They were wrong. At the moment there is little evidence to agree with what they are saying.
The crux is this, we are largely in a similar place to we were when covid first appeared that we don't know what will happen as we don't have enough cases to tell us how bad it affects people. Unlike then we have knowledge of covid, vaccines and stronger treatment.
If we do what independent sage wants it destroys businesses. This was the problem when making the original decisions and is the same now. Is it severe enough to justify that? It's so hard to tell. South African experiences may suggest not. This virus may well now be on its way to being comparable to flu, bad for some but overall manageable. Equally can we guarantee the severity is better than delta? Not yet.
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BFYP.
There is absolutely no reason why it should destroy businesses.
Remember when Sunak said he'd "do what it takes"? Somewhere along the line that changed to "Protect the deficit and if tens of thousands die, tough shite."
It doesn't have to be that way. That's a policy choice. Remember that as the deaths start climbing.
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In the figures how many cases of flu have been recorded
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Let's be absolutely clear what the Govt policy is.
They are choosing not to lockdown. Partly because the swivel-eyed backwoodsmen won't wear it. Partly because Sunak doesn't want to pay for it. Partly because Johnson has staked his credibility on "No more lockdowns".
So they are letting the virus rip through us. And banking on the booster campaign to blunt the virus. But they've said themselves that we need to vaccinate 1million per day between now and New Year to cover the adult population. And we have only vaccinatred 1.5million in the first 3 days since the new policy was announced.
I say "only". This is a phenomenal achievement. But it's way below the required rate. And even if we DO get up to speed, the booster takes 2-3weeks to become fully effective. Whereas at the moment, we are looking like seeing the height of this wave well before then.
Remember, this is a chosen policy. They are choosing to not have lockdowns. They are choosing to hope that the vaccines do enough.
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BFYP.
There is absolutely no reason why it should destroy businesses.
Remember when Sunak said he'd "do what it takes"? Somewhere along the line that changed to "Protect the deficit and if tens of thousands die, tough shite."
It doesn't have to be that way. That's a policy choice. Remember that as the deaths start climbing.
Absolutely disagree there's many reasons why it can and will. The treasury can't cover every eventuality.
I'll give you an example, our football club. I seriously question if they can survive another period without fans. Bang goes the transfer window for a start and a relegation that may have been avoidable is highly likely. That has a huge long term impact.
The business I work for is in a pretty good place to handle it, but not many will be in the position we are, the pub down the road, hospitality venues etc just cannot cope with it.
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BFYP.
Govt can do what it wants if it has the will. They could give grants to every business in the country to allow them to close down from now to mid-Jan, giving time for a proper booster programme to take effect.
All that is required is the will. They are choosing not to do that.
And look at it this way. How many people are going to go to the pub or to the Rovers when this thing peaks?
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BFYP.
Govt can do what it wants if it has the will. They could give grants to every business in the country to allow them to close down from now to mid-Jan, giving time for a proper booster programme to take effect.
All that is required is the will. They are choosing not to do that.
And look at it this way. How many people are going to go to the pub or to the Rovers when this thing peaks?
But that still does harm doesn't it? What do these grants do? Do they make up for potentially hundreds of millions in lost sales for big businesses and the profit from that which is planned to invest, pay debt etc etc? No they won't do that and nor could they. Are they going to give football clubs enough to make up for 75000 fans not coming through the turnstiles in the case of man utd, 6000 at Doncaster? No they won't so there is harm there isn't there?
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Pud,
I think you are missing the point that the NHS will be rapidly overwhelmed, and unable to cope.
You cannot base policy on an assumption that the epidemic will be less problematic IF it causes fewer deaths because of reduced severity.
The proper response is to assume a damaging impact, and mitigate to the maximum, until better evidence of trajectory emerges, across a range of metrics.
The idea that you can net off potential economic effects against health outcomes is a false consideration. The UK can afford to compensate for loss of earnings, and policies could recoup some of that outlay over time such as a wealth tax, or steeper rates on existing tax instruments.
It is shameful that the debate has ignored these options.
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Another lockdown would in my opinion see an awful lot of non compliance particularly after the blatant behaviour of the government.
It’s accepted that covid will be around for years so where do we draw the line
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Some members of the govt have been irresponsible, so let’s all be irresponsible, shall we?
Surely we are better than this?
History shows that the British Army has had its fair share of poor leaders, but it did not necessarily make the whole army poor. Nor should it.
I believe, on the whole, the British public will continue to fight, and do the right thing.
It’s what we do in this country.
I have faith in this.
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That sums it up NR. People WILL do the right thing. Except this time, the Govt is washing its hands of financial support.
Johnson today saying that he's not banning social events but asking people to think about whether they should attend is a hammer blow to the hospitality sector. He did the same thing in mid March 2020 before being forced by events. I can see us following the same path this time. Reacting too late instead of acting.