Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: wilts rover on January 28, 2022, 01:00:47 pm
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Why, when the government and consumer bodies are talking about looming sky high gas prices for UK customers, has extraction from UK fields doubled - and been sold to Europe?
This bloke has an idea
https://twitter.com/_richardblack/status/1486721893277134849
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Or why not let Russia have their own way in exchange for cheaper gas?
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Or why not let Russia have their own way in exchange for cheaper gas?
And what happens after they have marched i to Ukraine?
Poland?
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I don't think people realise how much energy prices are going up ,I currently pay£90 per month my deal ends at the end of February with it rising to £135 a month and in April the energy cap is stopped my bill is prodicted to be around £180 a month ,this will cripple people unless the government step in to help.
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Why, when the government and consumer bodies are talking about looming sky high gas prices for UK customers, has extraction from UK fields doubled - and been sold to Europe?
This bloke has an idea
https://twitter.com/_richardblack/status/1486721893277134849
Yep, he's quite right UK gas is sold on the open market at the going rate. It would take a heck of a lot of gas production to shift the European market significantly lower.
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I don't think people realise how much energy prices are going up ,I currently pay£90 per month my deal ends at the end of February with it rising to £135 a month and in April the energy cap is stopped my bill is prodicted to be around £180 a month ,this will cripple people unless the government step in to help.
We had a letter from British gas offering to fix our energy bill at nearly double what we're paying now.
I thought I'd leave it until they adjust the cap in April. Fingers crossed the government will do something to help but I'm not expecting much.
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
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And we've got petrol following the gas price up now.
And food is going up because of expensive fertiliser and fuel costs.
And high fuel prices will push all commodities up.
That will hit retail.
Wages aren't keeping up with inflation.
All in all. Grim.
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And it’s not just here in the UK is it.
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When does the £350 million a week Brexit benefit kick in?
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Let the energy companies charge what they want, and when they declare massive profits do what they did to the banks and hit them with a big one off tax take and distribute it to the customers.
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Why, when the government and consumer bodies are talking about looming sky high gas prices for UK customers, has extraction from UK fields doubled - and been sold to Europe?
This bloke has an idea
https://twitter.com/_richardblack/status/1486721893277134849
Yep, he's quite right UK gas is sold on the open market at the going rate. It would take a heck of a lot of gas production to shift the European market significantly lower.
They wanted to fix mine at £180 a month ,I knew it was going up but not that much ,people on low incomes or benefits will struggle not time
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
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One thing is for sure, if they don't come up with something to mitigate this, these energy prices are going to smash into the just about managing, the low paid and those who are already struggling to make ends meet.
It's not only going to be the unemployed who feel it, it's going to be those on lower incomes too. Even those on a fairly decent wage will feel the pinch.
I think it's unprecedented.
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The prices are ridiculous
It’s not only fuel. I was in Homebase yesterday and looking at wood. There was some 4x2 which I was buying last year for around a fiver. Couldn’t believe it £14.75 for the same thing
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Chuff me MM.
BST will have a dickie fit if the government were to give pensioners increased winter fuel payments.
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Chuff me MM.
BST will have a dickie fit if the government were to give pensioners increased winter fuel payments.
Easy to means test it if they choose to. When it comes to energy and heating giving help to the least well off is absolutely the right thing to do.
Where I disagree with MM's point is on council tax it is to generic. I'm two bands above my next door neighbour, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm better off than them.
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Chuff me MM.
BST will have a dickie fit if the government were to give pensioners increased winter fuel payments.
Easy to means test it if they choose to. When it comes to energy and heating giving help to the least well off is absolutely the right thing to do.
Where I disagree with MM's point is on council tax it is to generic. I'm two bands above my next door neighbour, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm better off than them.
Hound here is another one who is incapable of having a sensible debate because every word is put through a process in his head of making it fit what he wants the person he disagrees with to be saying.
There are going to be millions of people who need serious support to keep the lights and radiators on in 2022 and the future. That includes pensioners but not only pensioners. Many of the very poorest in society now are working people and any assistance package must help them.
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Chuff me MM.
BST will have a dickie fit if the government were to give pensioners increased winter fuel payments.
Easy to means test it if they choose to. When it comes to energy and heating giving help to the least well off is absolutely the right thing to do.
Where I disagree with MM's point is on council tax it is to generic. I'm two bands above my next door neighbour, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm better off than them.
Hound here is another one who is incapable of having a sensible debate because every word is put through a process in his head of making it fit what he wants the person he disagrees with to be saying.
There are going to be millions of people who need serious support to keep the lights and radiators on in 2022 and the future. That includes pensioners but not only pensioners. Many of the very poorest in society now are working people and any assistance package must help them.
BST, can you deny that you have complained about pensioners getting too much from the government and that pensioners should be eternally grateful to the younger generation for paying for their pensions.
The underlying truth though is that because I don’t bow to your beliefs on many things, that you feel the need to discredit anything I and some others (who don’t agree with you) say.
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Chuff me MM.
BST will have a dickie fit if the government were to give pensioners increased winter fuel payments.
Easy to means test it if they choose to. When it comes to energy and heating giving help to the least well off is absolutely the right thing to do.
Where I disagree with MM's point is on council tax it is to generic. I'm two bands above my next door neighbour, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm better off than them.
Hound here is another one who is incapable of having a sensible debate because every word is put through a process in his head of making it fit what he wants the person he disagrees with to be saying.
There are going to be millions of people who need serious support to keep the lights and radiators on in 2022 and the future. That includes pensioners but not only pensioners. Many of the very poorest in society now are working people and any assistance package must help them.
BST, can you deny that you have complained about pensioners getting too much from the government and that pensioners should be eternally grateful to the younger generation for paying for their pensions.
Well he shouldn't because he is right. If I was born 40 years ago and had chose the same career path as now I'd be significantly better off in terms of pension, student debt, house prices etc. It is what it is, but there's no doubt today's pensioners in some (not all) cases don't need additional funding/benefits. Why should a pensioner get a fuel benefit if they're getting 30-40k dividends, final salary pension etc. They should not. A pensioner on state pension without those other aspects fully should.
That's the point of means testing isn't it?
Additional to that pensioners in 30 years time will find it tougher. Assuming they've paid off their huge mortgages (many won't), they won't have contributed anything like as much in to different styles of pension schemes. It's a potential problem in the future.
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Chuff me MM.
BST will have a dickie fit if the government were to give pensioners increased winter fuel payments.
Easy to means test it if they choose to. When it comes to energy and heating giving help to the least well off is absolutely the right thing to do.
Where I disagree with MM's point is on council tax it is to generic. I'm two bands above my next door neighbour, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm better off than them.
Hound here is another one who is incapable of having a sensible debate because every word is put through a process in his head of making it fit what he wants the person he disagrees with to be saying.
There are going to be millions of people who need serious support to keep the lights and radiators on in 2022 and the future. That includes pensioners but not only pensioners. Many of the very poorest in society now are working people and any assistance package must help them.
We are absolutely seeing this now in my work. Tenants ringing in saying houses are cold . Looks like average age stock , reasonable investment in thermal performance , so why now - it's not especially cold for time of year and these are not new to the house and they didn't complain last year . First checks it seems clear that it's money related IE heating going on later and off earlier. Of course insulation can be improved but these homes aren't priority construction. There's a real issue coming and it's in fact already here
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Looks like that's exactly what the chancellor has gone with. Good news if you're band a-d. A little annoying if you're not mind
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There is talk of changing the VAT rate on fuel to help offset some of the cost.
There will have to be a payback though so something else will have to go up.
And that impact would be tiny. If your bill is £60 net now and goes up to £100 now it's a gross of £63 going to £105. So not much of a saving, it needs way more than that. We don't really have a short term answer bar government subsidy.
Perhaps the government could subsidise bills a little and put in place a rebate for when prices drop off again to smooth it a little.
I agree with you on this - cutting the VAT on fuel alone won't do anything.... however, if they postponed green levies for 12 months in addition to cutting VAT it may have a better impact. I think the government need to consider increasing the Winter Fuel Payments to pensioners and perhaps need to start looking at some form of means test for other households - to protect the vulnerable?
I've always thought that they could link means testing with Council Tax rates - which automatically reflect those who are in a position to pay........ higher value houses = higher wages/savings..... or is that to simplistic...?
Looks like that's exactly what the chancellor has gone with. Good news if you're band a-d. A little annoying if you're not mind
Certainly does look that way..... it is a bit simplistic, but it will help 80% of people - and mainly the demographic that are going to be affected most.
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How will £150 help when most bills will go up by £800-£1000 and pre payment customers face an even bigger rise in bills of around £1200 per year, this is when shell energy just announced profits of 4.7 billion pound let that figure sink in then what the government announced today is not so good for the working man out their
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Yep, bit like when the housing crisis hit. I had a house repossessed in 2000 off York Road which i bought for 33 grand. 5 years later it was sold for just under 100k yet wages hadn't tripled in 5 years. This creating overnight a situation where affordable homes were a thing of the past.
The consumer will always be worse off.
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Energy Companies should be re nationalised simple as that
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I see France is capping energy bills and forcing EDF to take the hit. Presumably otherwise the French workers would be dusting off the guillotines again. We've got far too many servile forelock-tuggers for that, shame.
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Energy Companies should be re nationalised simple as that
Correct Filo,
There is no chance of controlling energy bills within reason when companies are syphoning off profit as shareholder dividends. Energy is a necessary utility, and as such should be in public ownership.
It is also important to consider climate change.
How do any system changes impact our ability to decarbonise, and move to a more efficient use of energy across the economy.
The green premium is aimed at making this change, and without it the transition will be slower.
It is in everyone's interest to move into the new energy economy rapidly, particularly those in fuel poverty.
With increasing numbers in fuel poverty, it is important to avoid loading extra costs on to regressive taxation like Council Tax. Targeted help for the vulnerable is the most appropriate response.
It always surprises me when you see North Sea explorations flaring off gas as a safety measure.
If they can recover oil and transfer it to land, then surely piping the gas on-shore cannot be that difficult.
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This is what So energy want to charge me although I am currently £250 in credit and pay £120 per month, trebling or nearly quadrupling my current payments.
Your current tariff is ending soon
You can renew onto a fixed rate tariff today that will start when your current contract ends. If you choose not to, at the end of your contract you'll automatically be placed onto our So Flex tariff, which fluctuates in line with the price of wholesale energy.
So Guava One Year
Rates fixed until 16 Mar 2023
£425 per month*
RECOMMENDED
So Guava Two Year
Rates fixed until 16 Mar 2024
£387 per month*
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Energy Companies should be re nationalised simple as that
Which will do little to solve the problem just shifts it in to one provider paid for by the taxpayer.
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No Pud, that is not correct.
It removes rent seeking from the economics of provision, allows forward planning for the industry as a whole on the basis of economies of scale, and clarifies the relationship between the main actors in moving the energy industry on to sustainable goals.
I doubt that you will find a credible energy economist to agree with the point you make.
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Whether or not there are economies to be made by nationalisation is entirely a secondary point.
What Govt should be doing is what it should ALWAYS do when there is a massive, temporary shock to the economy. It should put large amounts of money into the economy to smooth over the effect. And it shouldn't do that by taxing it from taxes. It should borrow at the still historically low rates that it can do, and settle the debt by moderate inflation over decades.
Offering £150 to 80% of the population when bills are going up by 4,6 or ten times that amount is nowhere remotely close to being enough. There are millions of people who were already teetering on the edge of poverty and this is going to tip them over. There are many more millions who are going to be pushed towards that edge.
And that is all on top of inflation being at its highest, and real wages set to fall their steepest since Billy Bremner was our manager. I've been saying for months that 2022 was going to be a horrific year for the Govt's popularity and this is what I meant.
The Govt response suggests that they simply don't get this. But people I'm speaking to get it, even ones in relatively well paid jobs. This has the danger of becoming this Govt's Poll Tax if they don't take much more aggressive steps to shield people from these effects.
One last thought. Last time we had a spike in energy costs and a dramatic rise in inflation like this, a lot of the workforce were still unionised and could fight for higher wages to compensate. We don't have that situation now. The workforce is fragmented and powerless. So ordinary people are going to be exposed to the full force rampant inflation with no simple way of fighting for a raise in their wages for the first time in decades. That is a recipe for mass discontent.
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It makes me grimace when I hear talking heads saying "well interest rates will have to go up, or there will be secondary wage inflation that will lead to a 1970s inflation spiral.
That is simply not going to happen, the lower paid have virtually no leverage anymore. Wages aren't keeping up with prices and won't keep up with the price rises.
What will happen is demand will fall out of the economy as prices for just about everything go up. That will lead to a secondary hit of closures and redundancies.
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What happens in October when prices are expected to rise again by £400-£700 per year, this is when again it will cripple people when the cold weather hits , I just don't think the government get how much people will struggle , as from April people will have higher national insurance,fuel and mortgage payments.
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...and higher food bills rich.
...and higher everything else bills. For instance, they were making the point in the inflation figures how much the cost of building materials were going up.
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"you'll own nothing, but you'll be happy"
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BST,
"Whether or not there are economies to be made by nationalisation is entirely a secondary point."
Most definitely not!
There is not a crisis in ENERGY prices, there is a massive rise in wholesale gas prices.
The objective is therefore to hedge gas supplies in the mid term, and replace gas in the energy economy at the earliest date.
The ownership of the industry is central to that transition.
Trying to micro manage the disparate energy industry is about as rational as herding cats.
The only realistic way to create the new energy economy is from the position of controlling the investment and policy environment in the sector.
We have seen many providers go to the wall because they were gaming the existing system, without any long term overview of where the sector needs to be in 2030 and beyond.
Plenty of info on this topic if you investigate.
On the inflation point, you argued on here against wage increases as advocated by trade unions and Andy Mcdonald. With the latest forecast showing 7.25% inflation, the levels of wage increases that you supported looks like a poor choice!
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Albie,
Gas prices are extraordinarily high but crude oil prices are rising too.
When fossil fuel prices are so high shouldn't that be a massive green light to the renewable energy business? Shouldn't the market just take care of the transition away from fossil fuels anyway now?
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RD,
They will do whatever gives them the highest margin of return.
The issue is that a sector heavily embedded in the existing network will sweat that asset.
Basically, it is a Kodak moment.....the need for change is clear, but the inertia in the system prevents it. Kodak knew that smartphone cameras would undermine their core business, but could not move from the status quo.
We have an energy system which evolved in the last century.
The new energy economy looks nothing like the incumbent.
Politicians of all stripes have not understood this change, and revert to defaults at every prompt.
There is no chance of evading fuel poverty for many by tinkering with the old system IMO.
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Yeah but Kodak went out of business and was replaced by the new camera technology.
Shouldn't the same be happening here and renewables be taken up naturally? Or are they still not out competing fossil fuel based technologies even at these prices?
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We had no choice said Sunak allowing a price rise of 50%.
Shell announced profits of £20 billion this morning (£900 a second) with £6 billion to be given to shareholders.
The French government announched 3 weeks ago it will limit EDF's price rise to 4%, which will cost that company c£7 billion.
One country looks after its population. The other looks after its shareholders.
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Personally I think the government should be launching massive support scheme to insulate Britain over the summer.
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Albie.
1) You're not going to change the basic cause of gas prices spiking and therefore the immediate crisis (global supply outstripping demand) by nationalisation.
2) When MacDonald was calling for 15% pay rises, inflation was below 2%. As a great man once said, when the facts change I change my opinion. What do you do?
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A nationalised energy industry, could be delivered at cost without the need to generate £20b profits and greedy shareholders wanting dividends, this is all the legacy of Thatcher and her let the markets decide, we are being ripped off by foreign companies and its been allowed to happen. Those companies that saw no profit have stopped trading in the energy markets
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The anti climate change action government in Oz tried to blame every problem of the power generation industry on green energy, grid failures, price rises, you name it and tried every which way to stifle growth in the solar energy industry. We now have falling electricity prices.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-12-03/solar-power-how-cheap-will-it-get-household-electricity-bill/100664690
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The anti climate change action government in Oz tried to blame every problem of the power generation industry on green energy, grid failures, price rises, you name it and tried every which way to stifle growth in the solar energy industry. We now have falling electricity prices.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-12-03/solar-power-how-cheap-will-it-get-household-electricity-bill/100664690
"After a long decade of year-on-year increases in power prices throughout the country, the cost of electricity is forecast to fall in most places.
Not yet you don't. According to that article, it is forecast but at the moment there is cheap electricity intermittently. There still lies the bugbear with renewables, overcoming intermitancy still tends to be expensive.
In a dark Northern European winter it's that intermitancy that is the big challenge.
These very high energy prices should provide the incentive but the need is now urgent.
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The world will move away from large generating centres to smaller localised units. This will help isolated towns and villages who will have their own generation sites and battery storage to help in times of greater need. The faster this is done the sooner the rewards will come.
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...battery storage. How much is that going to cost?
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You have to look at the cost of not doing it, and that is limitless. All new developments should have earth sourced heating to reduce the load have solar panels and should be insulated to a high standard. And set about sorting the old housing stock.
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BST,
1) That is not the point of public ownership here.
You take the production sector into public ownership to make sure that the policy and infrastructure investment is directed to the objectives of the low carbon economy, without delay.
This is aimed at avoiding resources being expended on the legacy fossil based energy economy, with speed of transition being the goal. By-passing the inertia of the incumbents is central to that transfer.
The suppliers (your gas company) just buy in on the wholesale markets.
Public ownership allows for much better terms at volume on the futures markets, and takes the % to shareholders back into the expansion of capacity.
2) Well, we knew that at the time, didn't we?
The forecasts were for increasing inflation rates from the Bank of England, and the smart money in the markets were well in advance of the BoE.
You were so focussed upon backing up the lamentable Starmer and Reeves that you disregarded the evidence in plain sight.
RD,
Intermittency is not a major problem to the grid, declining over time.
Electric vehicles act as a balancing reserve, with a 2 way transfer enabled. (so called Vehicle to Grid, or VtG).
The rapid progress of battery chemistry has changed the renewables economy for the better.
The issue that we face is that those who invest in the production capacity for electrification are, in many cases, seperate from the sellers of utility services to the public.
In a nutshell, the more links that you have in the extended supply chain, the greater the leakage of capital to rent seekers looking for a premium. As these organisations add zero value, quite why we keep them in the loop is a mystery.....unless you are in hock to the ideology of prvatisation.
Sydney is right on this.
Decentralisation will have an increasing role to play.
How best to enable the change is the question?
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Intermittency is not a major problem to the grid?
It certainly is at the moment, with low wind levels and back up provided by very expensive natural gas.
Ground source heating, high insulation levels, widespread electric car ownership, new battery chemistry. All these things are off into the future. They aren't with us right now. The problem we are facing is now. It's this winter, next winter and the winters after that.
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RD,
Has the National Grid said that intermittency is a big problem?
I may have missed it if so, is there a link?
I am not saying that there is no immediate problem with wholesale prices....there is!
The measures proposed kick the can a little down the road, but do not address the fuel poverty impacts.
Now you can take the current architecture of the energy industry as a given, and seek to tweak in the short term, or you can address the need for structural reform head on.
I favour the latter, because it needed to happen anyway, irrespective of volatility in wholesale markets.
Continuing a dependence upon spot market pricing is a recipe for instability of supply. The UK has reduced gas storage capacity in 2017.
Secure mid to long term gas supply by purchase as a state body, and re-organise the local supply network on a not for profit basis is the best way forward IMO.
If you are interested in the discussion, this link might be helpful;
https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-has-added-2-5bn-to-uk-energy-bills
As to the future, it is nearer than you think.
All the technologies are available now.
Yes, take up will take time....all the more reason to start as soon as possible.
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Very revealing moment yesterday.
The Governor of the Bank of England very publicly said that workers shouldn't ask for high wage rises as this would encourage more inflation.
He's technically right. But what he's doing is expecting workers to take all the pain of the current inflation.
But it doesn't have to be workers alone who take the pain.
What about asking companies not to increase their prices as a reaction to increased costs? How about containing inflation that way, and expecting companies to take some of the pain?
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All this and we live in a country where people are not allowed to erect their own wind powered generator in their garden.
Madness.
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Shell have just come over to be a British registered company again because of the taxation situation in the EU and the Netherlands, meaning that company taxes will be paid in the UK.
Now yes the profit declared is somewhat grotesque ( but was reported before taxes) but taxes will be paid in the UK, and over the last decade investment in our own gas fields in the North Sea has been declining as exploration has, those profits if they can be set against tax for exploration and expansion could be better used by the company to eventually bring sustainable exports and energy supply and bring prices down.
It is a highly skilled and paid industry, with an existing workforce in technical fields the country should be looking to exploit and enlarge, not discourage the companies from being here. I never saw any posts on here in the last two years when these companies tanked.
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In 2017, the UK chose to decommission about 75% of gas storage capacity.
This policy choice meant that imports were basically on a just in time basis at spot market prices.
If you are using gas as a baseload fuel for other industrial and commercial processes, you become extremely vulnerable to price volatility.
So for now, we are in hock to Russian gas.
The only way out is source elsewhere while at the same time electrifying all end uses that can be transferred readily.
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Shell have just come over to be a British registered company again because of the taxation situation in the EU and the Netherlands, meaning that company taxes will be paid in the UK.
Now yes the profit declared is somewhat grotesque ( but was reported before taxes) but taxes will be paid in the UK, and over the last decade investment in our own gas fields in the North Sea has been declining as exploration has, those profits if they can be set against tax for exploration and expansion could be better used by the company to eventually bring sustainable exports and energy supply and bring prices down.
It is a highly skilled and paid industry, with an existing workforce in technical fields the country should be looking to exploit and enlarge, not discourage the companies from being here. I never saw any posts on here in the last two years when these companies tanked.
Is this a brexit benefit?
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So the government gives people £150 of council tax if your in band A-D and today Doncaster council put it up £43 a year for band A and £65 for band B-D not really going to help at all is.
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Us poor buggers in band E get nowt.
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Another smart move , the 150 was a look ways going to be part swallowed up by CT rise , but that's now seen as local councils fault . Wait till folk work out that 50 quid a year on energy bills will apply to more people than received it too
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I was with green energy That went bust a year ago and was moved to shell energy ,I claimed money went out of my bank to green energy after they went bust , yesterday I got a cheque for £93 returned to me ,it was a nice shock
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Us poor buggers in band E get nowt.
I'm with you, guess they have to draw a line somewhere, though I am sulking about it.
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Us poor buggers in band E get nowt.
I'm with you, guess they have to draw a line somewhere, though I am sulking about it.
I'm in band A but don't have an option to opt out or pay the money back early
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I’m in band A debt free and don’t want a loan forcing on me
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Not at all I don't care what party is in charge ,it helps nobody and you still have to pay it back over 4 years,what should happen is companies making millions should lower the amount they can charge for whatever it is gas,electric petrol, Apple today have asked share holder to vote down a 73 million pound pay increase that is a installing of money.
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Nothing to do with party allegiance, as much as you would like it to be, I just don’t want debt forced onto me
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Just in case there is any confusion amongst people reading the thread, the "loan" portion of the discounts isn't related to the Council Tax band. Everybody is having the loan forced on them, only Council Tax bands A-D are getting the additional discount which doesn't have to be paid back (in theory).
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For clarity.
The Energy Bills Rebate will provide around 28 million households with an upfront discount on their bills worth £200. Energy suppliers will apply the discount to domestic electricity customers from October, with the Government meeting the costs. The discount will then be automatically recovered from people’s bills in equal £40 instalments over the next five years. This will begin from 2023, when global wholesale gas prices are expected to come down.
Households in England, which are in council tax bands A-D, will also receive a £150 rebate. The rebate to bills will be made directly by local authorities from April. This will not need to be repaid. This one-off payment will benefit around 80 per cent of all homes in England and is £1 billion more generous and more targeted towards lower-income families than a VAT cut on energy bills.
On top of this discount, discretionary funding of £144 million will also be provided to support vulnerable people and individuals on low incomes that do not pay Council Tax, or that pay Council Tax for properties in Bands E-H.
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The £150 is a false figure ,with the increase councils are doing it will be between £100- £80 off your council tax bill and some families on low income who don't pay council tax will get no help
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Nothing to do with party allegiance, as much as you would like it to be, I just don’t want debt forced onto me
Why have you come forth? Are you a likely candidate? It's like handing yourself in to prove your innocence!
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Not at all I don't care what party is in charge ,it helps nobody and you still have to pay it back over 4 years,what should happen is companies making millions should lower the amount they can charge for whatever it is gas,electric petrol, Apple today have asked share holder to vote down a 73 million pound pay increase that is a installing of money.
Why have you come forth? Are you a likely candidate? It's like handing yourself in to prove your innocence!
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The £150 is a false figure ,with the increase councils are doing it will be between £100- £80 off your council tax bill and some families on low income who don't pay council tax will get no help
Was anyone expecting that there wouldn’t be a council tax increase in April?
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Not at all I don't care what party is in charge ,it helps nobody and you still have to pay it back over 4 years,what should happen is companies making millions should lower the amount they can charge for whatever it is gas,electric petrol, Apple today have asked share holder to vote down a 73 million pound pay increase that is a installing of money.
Why have you come forth? Are you a likely candidate? It's like handing yourself in to prove your innocence!
I suppose those that don’t want the £200 could just leave it in a bank account so it is there when each £40 is reclaimed.
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Nothing to do with party allegiance, as much as you would like it to be, I just don’t want debt forced onto me
It's not a real debt though per se. Crikey they could even not show it on your bill If they chose and you'd be none the wiser. It's only news to get the government some positive views I'm not sure why you care about it to be honest?
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The £150 is a false figure ,with the increase councils are doing it will be between £100- £80 off your council tax bill and some families on low income who don't pay council tax will get no help
Was anyone expecting that there wouldn’t be a council tax increase in April?
Loads if you look on free press Facebook page when they have reported the council tax increase. Some really upset with Dmbc for stealing good old Boris 150 quid . It's painful
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Nothing to do with party allegiance, as much as you would like it to be, I just don’t want debt forced onto me
It's not a real debt though per se. Crikey they could even not show it on your bill If they chose and you'd be none the wiser. It's only news to get the government some positive views I'm not sure why you care about it to be honest?
If we had a Labour government making the decision I reckon that nothing detrimental would have been said.
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Nothing to do with party allegiance, as much as you would like it to be, I just don’t want debt forced onto me
except that you'd still be a shitster hound
It's not a real debt though per se. Crikey they could even not show it on your bill If they chose and you'd be none the wiser. It's only news to get the government some positive views I'm not sure why you care about it to be honest?
If we had a Labour government making the decision I reckon that nothing detrimental would have been said.
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Interesting article on the massive rises in Standing Charges..... and the case that these should be scrapped.
https://www.ft.com/content/05fc1440-5538-4072-ac46-4b87ecc3a5f3
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With the war in Ukraine how high will the cost of gas and petrol go up as some reports are saying these bills could double in the coming months
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With the war in Ukraine how high will the cost of gas and petrol go up as some reports are saying these bills could double in the coming months
The UK gets less than 5% of it’s gas from Russia, the vast majority of UK’s gas comes from the North Sea
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With the war in Ukraine how high will the cost of gas and petrol go up as some reports are saying these bills could double in the coming months
The UK gets less than 5% of it’s gas from Russia, the vast majority of UK’s gas comes from the North Sea
We still have to buy it on the open market though and this war is already impacting the market price.
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The UK has to buy at spot market prices because we decommissioned 75% of gas storage capacity in 2017.
This makes us very vulnerable to external market variables.
Gas prices also determine costs in the wider energy sector as a keynote technology.
The sooner this is revised to focus on electricity the better.
The increase in standing charges for both gas and electricity is nonsense on stilts, and is just naked profiteering from the energy providers.
The sooner they are in public ownership, with a service provision remit, the better for everyone.
There is not the slightest chance of averting rising fuel poverty across the UK under the current architecture.
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Well, there's been some utter shit written on here over the years, but well done for srtting a new bar, BB
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The UK has to buy at spot market prices because we decommissioned 75% of gas storage capacity in 2017.
This makes us very vulnerable to external market variables.
Gas prices also determine costs in the wider energy sector as a keynote technology.
The sooner this is revised to focus on electricity the better.
The increase in standing charges for both gas and electricity is nonsense on stilts, and is just naked profiteering from the energy providers.
The sooner they are in public ownership, with a service provision remit, the better for everyone.
There is not the slightest chance of averting rising fuel poverty across the UK under the current architecture.
We have a disjointed energy policy and a government incapable of joined up thinking. The energy trilemma is nothing new. We were highlighting this 8 or so years ago to government, just as Centrica were putting out the first murmurings of the Rough storage facility being unstable. We are reliant on interconnects to mainland Europe for power and gas, as highlighted when the main interconnect to France in Kent burnt to a crisp 6 months ago.
Wholesale gas markets rose over 50% on the near curve yesterday, and retreated almost all of it today, but that volatility in day ahead and month ahead markets is leaching into Summer and winter 22 pricing, and in turn sucking up 23 too. Forward hedging into 23 and 24 offer value over near term, but are still close to treble the price they ordinarily should be.
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Careful Rob. People might think you know what you're talking about! Ditto Albie.
Thank you both. I am a better informed person now.
BobG
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
Well, there's been some utter shit written on here over the years, but well done for srtting a new bar, BB
What strange times we are living in when telling the truth is setting a new bar!
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Think energy needs nationalising to protect the public, especially when you look at the profits Centrica are looking at
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
But it isn't a Labour plan. It's a Tory plan and the below is the harsh reality. You can defend your party all you want but they aren't helping normal people.
We had no choice said Sunak allowing a price rise of 50%.
Shell announced profits of £20 billion this morning (£900 a second) with £6 billion to be given to shareholders.
The French government announched 3 weeks ago it will limit EDF's price rise to 4%, which will cost that company c£7 billion.
One country looks after its population. The other looks after its shareholders.
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
But it isn't a Labour plan. It's a Tory plan and the below is the harsh reality. You can defend your party all you want but they aren't helping normal people.
We had no choice said Sunak allowing a price rise of 50%.
Shell announced profits of £20 billion this morning (£900 a second) with £6 billion to be given to shareholders.
The French government announched 3 weeks ago it will limit EDF's price rise to 4%, which will cost that company c£7 billion.
One country looks after its population. The other looks after its shareholders.
I know it isn't a Labour plan. My point is if it was .........
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I know storm Franklin wasn't a labour plan, my point is if it was ............
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To some, if it was a Labour plan it would have been treated in Terry Bramall proportions of generosity. However, because it's a Tory plan it's being treated in Ken Richardson proportions of tightbas**rdness.
But it isn't a Labour plan. It's a Tory plan and the below is the harsh reality. You can defend your party all you want but they aren't helping normal people.
We had no choice said Sunak allowing a price rise of 50%.
Shell announced profits of £20 billion this morning (£900 a second) with £6 billion to be given to shareholders.
The French government announched 3 weeks ago it will limit EDF's price rise to 4%, which will cost that company c£7 billion.
One country looks after its population. The other looks after its shareholders.
I know it isn't a Labour plan. My point is if it was .........
So you're happy with the unnecessary price increase.
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That's not the point! Why are you deviating from my point?
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That's not the point! Why are you deviating from my point?
Sorry for not allowing you to ruin the thread with your incessant "Yeah but what about Labour...".
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Apology accepted.
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British Gas letter in today. I’m on standard variable, which is the cheapest tariff currently.this year £720. Next year £1200 predicted.
Leccy going up £200.
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I’m with Shell Energy, paying £92 a month for gas and electric in November, today they have recommended it should go up to £260 a month after the April rise
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I’m with Shell Energy, paying £92 a month for gas and electric in November, today they have recommended it should go up to £260 a month after the April rise
You know what to tell them to do I assume.
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Switch to British Gas for both.
And put a jacket and hat on indoors.
We have the gas heating off, but the wood burner is roaring.
Going to Try to make a real effort to use less gas.
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I’m with Shell Energy, paying £92 a month for gas and electric in November, today they have recommended it should go up to £260 a month after the April rise
that has to be a fixed rate ,as the cheapest fixed rate at the minute are crazy prices
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I’m with Shell Energy, paying £92 a month for gas and electric in November, today they have recommended it should go up to £260 a month after the April rise
that has to be a fixed rate ,as the cheapest fixed rate at the minute are crazy prices
Nope, flexible rate
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I’m with Shell Energy, paying £92 a month for gas and electric in November, today they have recommended it should go up to £260 a month after the April rise
that has to be a fixed rate ,as the cheapest fixed rate at the minute are crazy prices
Nope, flexible rate
there will be loads cheaper than that ,mine has gone up from £87-£135 per month on current usage , utility warehouse are the cheapest I found as the daily standard charge is much lower than the rest on the market
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NR, what's your stance on air pollution, and wood burner particles in the air? What do you think of the Green Lobby?
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I use a log burner it's a god send on keeping the heating bills down as I don't need to turn it on to heat the house
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So with the council tax going up by £1.25 per week , So is peoples rent As part of Mayor Ros Jones’ budget, rent for those living in social housing will increase by 4.1 per cent in April – bringing the average rent to around £76 a week.
This follows a government-imposed one per cent increase over the last four years.
The increase in rent equates to around £12 a month with a resident on the average rent of £292.24 a month. The rent hike will come into effect on April 4, 2022.And with the energy increase people will need to find around £1000 a year just to pay the same bills, that's not including the rising food costs.
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NR, what's your stance on air pollution, and wood burner particles in the air? What do you think of the Green Lobby?
I have an Efficient stove, and burn only well seasoned wood. No coal.
Get it swept every year and the sweep always comments how clean the flu is.
I’m mindful it still kicks out particles though.
I live in a very rural area so there are no issues currently with its use.
I don’t pay for wood either .
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With bulb. My bill is £101 a month currently which I pay all year round which easily covers winter usage - going up to £181 in April.
The worlds gone mad
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My estimates from E-on, I'm a high user.
Estimated annual costs from 1 April 2022:
Electricity: £1,781.96
Gas: £1,449.07
:woot: :woot:
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My estimates from E-on, I'm a high user.
Estimated annual costs from 1 April 2022:
Electricity: £1,781.96
Gas: £1,449.07
:woot: :woot:
wow and I was moaning at £1600 for both gas and electric, do you put the heating on and open the doors
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If your supplier is putting up standing charges in these increases, ask them why?
Wholesale price rises are one thing, but standing charges are not under the same economic pressure.
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Just been on uswitch, there are no deals at the moment except fixed deals coming out at around £450 a month
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Just been on uswitch, there are no deals at the moment except fixed deals coming out at around £450 a month
most suppliers will only do the switch if you call them , even checking money supermarket yesterday no deals to switch to online
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Think you'll have to wait till next month to find out what's cheaper.
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Deal just ended with shell was paying around 60 a month now 150 on their flexible 6 tariff but will keep looking thankfully she’ll give 3% of fuel so save a few quid a month not a great deal but at least it’s something.
As an aside does anyone have a home battery system thinking about it to store the excess solar rather than it going back to the grid for the 14pkwh
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Summary of costs and suppliers for a home battery system here;
https://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-batteries#/
Might be best to speak to your panel installer to get the right spec for your system.
You could always get an EV, and run the house electrics from the EV battery when the car is not in use. You could charge up the EV from the panels, then draw back to the house when needed.
Check out vehicle to grid on the web.
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Normal rules ,who does your chimney sweep for you just had mine a year and need to get it done
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I've been paying £72 a month dual fuel and live in a 3 bed semi.
Bulb want to up my bill to £135 a month from April 1st.
I'll have a look round and see if there's any better deals to be had, but I doubt whether there'll be any mega deals.
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I've been paying £72 a month dual fuel and live in a 3 bed semi.
Bulb want to up my bill to from April 1st.
I'll have a look round and see if there's any better deals to be had, but I doubt whether there'll be any mega deals.
Mines more or less the same with shell energy. Daft thing is they actually put my d/d down in January to £72 amonth as I'd overpaid and now is 1400 a year from April
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Normal rules ,who does your chimney sweep for you just had mine a year and need to get it done
I live in south east Lincolnshire. Not your area ?
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Ok cheers
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The government will be wondering why birth rates are dropping so much, well they will be when we're not on 80K like yourselves and getting 2.7% pay rises. It doesn't help having a government that let our energy bills increase by 54% and then increase again in a few more month. No house can afford to live on one wage nowadays while the other person's on maternity.
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I keep saying it and offer no excuses, it is time to nationalise our utilities, profit that Shareholders of these companies take could be used to keep our populations bills down instead of ripping us off
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Agreed Filo.
I also said a while back that I could see the gas and electricity companies being nationalised.
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The utility companies should never have been denationalised.
Even Ted Heath said that it was like flogging the family silver.
Maybe they could have been run better but at least they were in the hands of the government and could be controlled in this country rather than a foreign boardroom.
Successive governments have let them get away with murder to the cost of the customer.
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Another effect of Austerity.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1500765107051237378
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Brent crude went close to $135 a barrel this morning!
It's hovering just under 130 now.
This is going to have a serious impact on the economy, inflation is really going to rip.
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the shell garage on the A17 at East Heckington yesterday had unleaded at 169.9 per litre.
That’s £7.70 per gallon.
There are reports of unleaded as high as £2.20 in the uk .
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I'm a plumber by trade starting apprenticeship in 1989. I can distinctly remember one of the lecturers repeatedly saying we should be concentrating on insulation as gas and electricity prices were artificially low and by the time we were his age it would be unaffordable. We had him as a crank but maybe not. Mind you could get a pint for well under a quid and he never mentioned a four/five pound pint
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Drove padt our local Esso petrol station this morning at 11.15, price of diesel was £1.59 came back 1 hour later price is now £1.65. How? No new delivery is it just down to profiteering?
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British Gas have increased profits by 44% in the last reporting year.
At the same time as passing on the increase in wholesale prices to customers, without regard to fuel poverty and the ability to pay.
Meanwhile, the opposition (cough) Labour Party are defending the existing system;
https://labourlist.org/2022/01/reeves-big-swathe-of-nationalisation-would-not-be-good-value-for-money/
So how do they expect this situation to be resolved?
Windfall tax this year, then another next year, and again the year after that?
Deal with the actual problem, not the symptoms, if you want to be effective.
Public core services like energy need to be in direct control of public authorities, and not seen as a cash cow by private companies for shareholders.
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British Gas have increased profits by 44% in the last reporting year.
At the same time as passing on the increase in wholesale prices to customers, without regard to fuel poverty and the ability to pay.
Meanwhile, the opposition (cough) Labour Party are defending the existing system;
https://labourlist.org/2022/01/reeves-big-swathe-of-nationalisation-would-not-be-good-value-for-money/
So how do they expect this situation to be resolved?
Windfall tax this year, then another next year, and again the year after that?
Deal with the actual problem, not the symptoms, if you want to be effective.
Public core services like energy need to be in direct control of public authorities, and not seen as a cash cow by private companies for shareholders.
I’ve been saying that before the energy rises, but there are some people who still believe they should be in private hands, the situation today is a direct legacy of Thatchers policies
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True Filo, very short sighted at the time
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British Gas profits up 44% to £118 million. BGE has approximately 7,250,000 customers. Which equates to approximately £16 per customer profit.
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Albie.
Labour has for some time been proposing a large windfall tax on the energy companies. I'd prefer the companies to be nationalised, but as a first order issue, I'm far less concerned about ownership than I am about ensuring the companies don't pocket massive profits.
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BST,
They have indeed, which shows that Labour have no understanding of how the energy sector works in the economy.
You are wrong if you think a WT will change the priorities of the sector. There is no evidence that a WT has ever delivered such a change, and the public interest is not a primary focus of the industry.
A WT applied across the whole sector makes little sense, because it does not guide the sector on pricing policy for different energy consumers.
For example, you need to have a different approach to low income families for whom energy is a high percentage of their income, to those who may be high consumers but also high income.
The existing system discriminates against low income customers by use of high standing charges irrespective of amounts of energy used. This is highly regressive, and for Labour to leave this unchanged is deplorable.
Industrial consumers need to have an altogether different pricing model, which directs them to lower and non carbon energy sources.
The energy economy needs fundamental reform to address immediate and future challenges.
Ignorant policies like telling people a WT will suffice is a big part of the problem...it is not a solution to the inability of market mechanisms to deliver a change to the system.
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I saw this mentioned on another site and thought I would share - it may help someone........... even if it is a little bit underhand...
When submitting a reading at the end of March, artificially inflate it so that you get loads of extra units at the pre cap rise price...
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I keep saying it and offer no excuses, it is time to nationalise our utilities, profit that Shareholders of these companies take could be used to keep our populations bills down instead of ripping us off
How much do you think that would raise?
Here's the figures.....
Total profit of energy companies last year was £800m. Sounds like a lot right? So now let's split that accross the 54m adults in the country. That's just under £15 per adult. That's assuming you don't split the profit based on usage and give nothing to businesses (which typically use much more than consumers).
I'm not sure based on the simplicity of the above we would see a significant amount of difference....
The current average profit margin for the supply element of energy suppliers is a loss of -1.5%.
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How much do you think that would raise?
Here's the figures.....
Total profit of energy companies last year was £800m. Sounds like a lot right? So now let's split that accross the 54m adults in the country. That's just under £15 per adult. That's assuming you don't split the profit based on usage and give nothing to businesses (which typically use much more than consumers).
I'm not sure based on the simplicity of the above we would see a significant amount of difference....
The current average profit margin for the supply element of energy suppliers is a loss of -1.5%.
This article differs widely from your £800m figure..... nearly double actually..... Although I am not saying you are wrong.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/energy-bills-eon-british-gas-sse-scottish-power-b2013421.html
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Pud,
You need to look at the energy economy as a whole, not just the energy suppliers to the public.
The energy production economy, including the infrastructure provision via the National Grid, is a different beast.
Investment in new off shore wind for example, is not determined by the consumer supply sector.
They are just brokers, buying on international markets, then selling to the public at a margin.
It is also not about "how much it would raise", it is about a funded roadmap for the industry to self sufficiency and non carbon capacity.
Bozo is talking up a new energy policy in the near future, but there is little sign that government understands the need for fundamental reform.
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I worked for a while in the HQ of NPower. I kid you not, a more disorganised, unthinking and incompetant shower of shite you will never see.
Remember when they couldn't even send bills out? That was caused by a groupthink decision that was so entrenched that even when the world started caving in, they continued with the 'plan'. That gave IBM, the clowns who f**ked up the spadework, over 100 million in revenue, on a cost plus basis (!!), and eventually cost the Chief Exec his job. If I'd been the boss IBM would have been marched out of the door at gunpoint. In the meantime tens of thousands ended up, months and months and months later with bills they could neither trust nor pay.
The benefits of Thatcherite dogma eh?
BobG
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Pud,
You need to look at the energy economy as a whole, not just the energy suppliers to the public.
The energy production economy, including the infrastructure provision via the National Grid, is a different beast.
Investment in new off shore wind for example, is not determined by the consumer supply sector.
They are just brokers, buying on international markets, then selling to the public at a margin.
It is also not about "how much it would raise", it is about a funded roadmap for the industry to self sufficiency and non carbon capacity.
Bozo is talking up a new energy policy in the near future, but there is little sign that government understands the need for fundamental reform.
Said it a few times previously..... but I can't for the life of me understand why every new build isn't required to have at least solar panels on, or even a heat source pump fitted. We could even go further and make all new large estates have their own wind turbine that could create the energy for that estate. An onshore wind turbine with a capacity of 2.5 MW could make up to 6 million kWh a year – which would be enough to supply 1200 - 1500 households.
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Pud,
You need to look at the energy economy as a whole, not just the energy suppliers to the public.
The energy production economy, including the infrastructure provision via the National Grid, is a different beast.
Investment in new off shore wind for example, is not determined by the consumer supply sector.
They are just brokers, buying on international markets, then selling to the public at a margin.
It is also not about "how much it would raise", it is about a funded roadmap for the industry to self sufficiency and non carbon capacity.
Bozo is talking up a new energy policy in the near future, but there is little sign that government understands the need for fundamental reform.
Said it a few times previously..... but I can't for the life of me understand why every new build isn't required to have at least solar panels on, or even a heat source pump fitted. We could even go further and make all new large estates have their own wind turbine that could create the energy for that estate. An onshore wind turbine with a capacity of 2.5 MW could make up to 6 million kWh a year – which would be enough to supply 1200 - 1500 households.
I’ve been banging on about this for years.
Rainwater catchment also is a big area of waste. New homes should have large underground reservoirs to store rain water with an overflow into mains when needed. Toilet flushing alone would save billions of gallons of water across the uk .
And it would help alleviate flooding concerns from excess downpours.
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Pud,
You need to look at the energy economy as a whole, not just the energy suppliers to the public.
The energy production economy, including the infrastructure provision via the National Grid, is a different beast.
Investment in new off shore wind for example, is not determined by the consumer supply sector.
They are just brokers, buying on international markets, then selling to the public at a margin.
It is also not about "how much it would raise", it is about a funded roadmap for the industry to self sufficiency and non carbon capacity.
Bozo is talking up a new energy policy in the near future, but there is little sign that government understands the need for fundamental reform.
Said it a few times previously..... but I can't for the life of me understand why every new build isn't required to have at least solar panels on, or even a heat source pump fitted. We could even go further and make all new large estates have their own wind turbine that could create the energy for that estate. An onshore wind turbine with a capacity of 2.5 MW could make up to 6 million kWh a year – which would be enough to supply 1200 - 1500 households.
I’ve been banging on about this for years.
Rainwater catchment also is a big area of waste. New homes should have large underground reservoirs to store rain water with an overflow into mains when needed. Toilet flushing alone would save billions of gallons of water across the uk .
And it would help alleviate flooding concerns from excess downpours.
It's simply that the big house builders are a powerful lobby that has leant on the government to prevent these kinds of reforms.
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EU have produced a plan to get off Russian energy, short term and longer term summary here;
https://twitter.com/janrosenow/status/1501222172588662791/photo/1
The hydrogen element will need to be "green hydrogen", from renewable sources, not "blue hydrogen" from gas.
The UK will need something similar, but with greater energy efficiency via insulation.
Bated breathe!
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EU have produced a plan to get off Russian energy, short term and longer term summary here;
https://twitter.com/janrosenow/status/1501222172588662791/photo/1
The hydrogen element will need to be "green hydrogen", from renewable sources, not "blue hydrogen" from gas.
The UK will need something similar, but with greater energy efficiency via insulation.
Bated breathe!
Yes green hydrogen would be a good power storage system to replenish and build when there is an excess of renewable energy.
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Interesting thread from the IFS showing how the increase in energy costs fall more heavily on low income households:
https://twitter.com/TheIFS/status/1501860379550535680
Without a much greater intervention from Sunak, next winter is going to be a killer for the least well off.
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Local Asda seems to be maintaining 1.55 for unleaded.
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Local Asda seems to be maintaining 1.55 for unleaded.
I topped up at Sainsbury on the York ringroad for 1.55 yesterday. For diesel!
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Asda on Monday was 154 for diesel next to the dome
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For those with a condensing boiler, some tips on how to set the boiler to reduce your consumption of expensive gas;
https://www.theheatinghub.co.uk/articles/turn-down-the-boiler-flow-temperature
It might be a good time to tweak and see if it works for you, it being towards the end of the heating season.
You can always put it back up if it does not meet your needs!
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Thanks for that Albie. I never knew that. Horrifying to think how much carbon and money has been wasted by this not being publicised.
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Asda on Monday was 154 for diesel next to the dome
As I passed yesterday the diesel was 168 , gone up 15p in a week
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Heating oil starting to come down but still well over double, coal now expected to rise 40% in the next 3 weeks due to international shortages and increased demand.
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Tesco at Edenthorpe this morning. 1.73 for diesel.
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Brent crude almost back to $100 this morning. Fears of a slowdown in China due to COVID lockdowns are weighing on the price
It might be worth holding off filling up for a few days if you can. It'll take a while for the price drops to filter through.
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Tesco at Edenthorpe this morning. 1.73 for diesel.
Barrie cars Dunsville 1.64 this morning, Murco Dunscroft 1.75, jacksons Stainy 1.85
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For those with a condensing boiler, some tips on how to set the boiler to reduce your consumption of expensive gas;
https://www.theheatinghub.co.uk/articles/turn-down-the-boiler-flow-temperature
It might be a good time to tweak and see if it works for you, it being towards the end of the heating season.
You can always put it back up if it does not meet your needs!
Another tip to reduce the gas price hike, change the controls;
https://www.beama.org.uk/news/the-heat-is-on-beama-led-research-reveals-heating-controls-can-reduce-gas-use-by-10-12-percent-amid-record-price-hikes.html
I have reduced the flow rate, but not fitted new compensation thermostats....has anyone on here done this?
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I wonder how many are pleading fuel poverty while paying for Sky and the latest mobile phone, prime TV, and having their nails done.
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I wonder how many are pleading fuel poverty while paying for Sky and the latest mobile phone, prime TV, and having their nails done.
You're more Daily Mail than the Daily Mail itself. Impressive
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I wonder how many are pleading fuel poverty while paying for Sky and the latest mobile phone, prime TV, and having their nails done.
Well I am still keeping my nails done!
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I wonder how many are pleading fuel poverty while paying for Sky and the latest mobile phone, prime TV, and having their nails done.
Lazy, feckless scum the lot of them...
Except, hang on these are the generations that very often have to take such low paid work that the government accepts it has to top up the wages with benefits to make it viable.
That has no hope of getting on the housing ladder and consequently have often given up hope of being able to afford to have kids. Then the birth rate plummets and you moan when the government brings in immigrants to keep the growth rate up.
But yeah they're wasting their money on broadband and new mobile phones which they actually need to have these days for work purposes.
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For those with a condensing boiler, some tips on how to set the boiler to reduce your consumption of expensive gas;
https://www.theheatinghub.co.uk/articles/turn-down-the-boiler-flow-temperature
It might be a good time to tweak and see if it works for you, it being towards the end of the heating season.
You can always put it back up if it does not meet your needs!
Another tip to reduce the gas price hike, change the controls;
https://www.beama.org.uk/news/the-heat-is-on-beama-led-research-reveals-heating-controls-can-reduce-gas-use-by-10-12-percent-amid-record-price-hikes.html
I have reduced the flow rate, but not fitted new compensation thermostats....has anyone on here done this?
I reduced the flow rate on my heating when we were going into the winter and, much against my wife’s wishes, I reduced all the programmer settings by just one degree.
She was convinced she would be cold but in actual fact we don’t think it feels any different.
I however bolster the draught excluder products on the window and door frames and that helped too.
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Another 'big society' plan eventually flushed, don't blame the messenger, discuss the points made.
''Tories may recall those sunlit days leading up to the 2010 election when David Cameron, as the green man of folklore, posed in the Arctic cheerily driving a husky team, as he rebranded his party with an oak tree and a Vote Blue, Go Green slogan. His greenery was environmental gauze to signify an end to the nasty party: he did the job pretty well.
He did preserve Labour’s green policies initially, but in 2013 Cameron panicked when Labour’s Ed Miliband pledged a price freeze, after energy prices had risen by 37% in three years. Cut the “green crap” Cameron ordered, which was duly splashed across the Sun’s front page. The consequences were far-reaching. Stripping out green subsidies caused the number of homes getting loft or cavity wall insulation to plummet immediately by 92% and 74% respectively: those figures never recovered. He scrapped zero carbon building regulations, so a million homes have been built since 2016 with poor energy standards: our energy bills are £2.5bn higher as a direct result, says Simon Evans of Carbon Brief''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/15/tories-green-crap-david-cameron-boris-johnson
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I reduced the flow rate on my heating when we were going into the winter and, much against my wife’s wishes, I reduced all the programmer settings by just one degree.
She was convinced she would be cold but in actual fact we don’t think it feels any different.
I however bolster the draught excluder products on the window and door frames and that helped too.
What products did you use for the windows and door frames drfchound and did you notice a significant difference?
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I reduced the flow rate on my heating when we were going into the winter and, much against my wife’s wishes, I reduced all the programmer settings by just one degree.
She was convinced she would be cold but in actual fact we don’t think it feels any different.
I however bolster the draught excluder products on the window and door frames and that helped too.
What products did you use for the windows and door frames drfchound and did you notice a significant difference?
Hi mate. I used something from Screwfix, item code 43490.
It is a rubber self adhesive strip, it comes in a 25mtr roll.
If you have existing pvc windows and doors it is probably too thick to put on top of the existing weather strip which comes with the installation, as was the case for me.
So I ran it alongside the existing stuff, tight up to it.
Easy enough to do, cuts easily with a Stanley knife or even a pair of scissors.
I have found that it makes a noticeable difference in reducing draughty spots.
If you have vents at the top,of the windows always make sure they are closed in cold or windy weather too.
I forgot to say earlier that I also bought some of the foil insulation that goes behind the radiators.
I always thought it was a gimmick and would never be any good but I have changed my mind having tried it. I put it on all the radiators which are on an outside wall.
I only put it between the brackets on the back of the radiators because if you put it right up to the ends it looks crap and sometimes fall out. You could try fixing it in place with masking tape on the back I suppose.
In my case all of the above seems to have made a difference.
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Article in the Guardian today on the way to reduce reliance on Russian gas in the UK;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/mar/16/uk-can-eliminate-need-for-russian-gas-this-year-research-shows
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I reduced the flow rate on my heating when we were going into the winter and, much against my wife’s wishes, I reduced all the programmer settings by just one degree.
She was convinced she would be cold but in actual fact we don’t think it feels any different.
I however bolster the draught excluder products on the window and door frames and that helped too.
What products did you use for the windows and door frames drfchound and did you notice a significant difference?
Hi mate. I used something from Screwfix, item code 43490.
It is a rubber self adhesive strip, it comes in a 25mtr roll.
If you have existing pvc windows and doors it is probably too thick to put on top of the existing weather strip which comes with the installation, as was the case for me.
So I ran it alongside the existing stuff, tight up to it.
Easy enough to do, cuts easily with a Stanley knife or even a pair of scissors.
I have found that it makes a noticeable difference in reducing draughty spots.
If you have vents at the top,of the windows always make sure they are closed in cold or windy weather too.
I forgot to say earlier that I also bought some of the foil insulation that goes behind the radiators.
I always thought it was a gimmick and would never be any good but I have changed my mind having tried it. I put it on all the radiators which are on an outside wall.
I only put it between the brackets on the back of the radiators because if you put it right up to the ends it looks crap and sometimes fall out. You could try fixing it in place with masking tape on the back I suppose.
In my case all of the above seems to have made a difference.
Thanks mate, i appreciate your response. I shall have a look at that - seems easy enough even for me to fit...! We have UPVC windows, but we still seem to get some drafts.
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I wonder how many are pleading fuel poverty while paying for Sky and the latest mobile phone, prime TV, and having their nails done.
You're f*cking clueless.
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Video from The Heating Hub on how to tweak a condensing boiler to get best value;
https://t.co/QVmCWLLAK0
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I reduced the flow rate on my heating when we were going into the winter and, much against my wife’s wishes, I reduced all the programmer settings by just one degree.
She was convinced she would be cold but in actual fact we don’t think it feels any different.
I however bolster the draught excluder products on the window and door frames and that helped too.
What products did you use for the windows and door frames drfchound and did you notice a significant difference?
Hi mate. I used something from Screwfix, item code 43490.
It is a rubber self adhesive strip, it comes in a 25mtr roll.
If you have existing pvc windows and doors it is probably too thick to put on top of the existing weather strip which comes with the installation, as was the case for me.
So I ran it alongside the existing stuff, tight up to it.
Easy enough to do, cuts easily with a Stanley knife or even a pair of scissors.
I have found that it makes a noticeable difference in reducing draughty spots.
If you have vents at the top,of the windows always make sure they are closed in cold or windy weather too.
I forgot to say earlier that I also bought some of the foil insulation that goes behind the radiators.
I always thought it was a gimmick and would never be any good but I have changed my mind having tried it. I put it on all the radiators which are on an outside wall.
I only put it between the brackets on the back of the radiators because if you put it right up to the ends it looks crap and sometimes fall out. You could try fixing it in place with masking tape on the back I suppose.
In my case all of the above seems to have made a difference.
Did you take the rads off to fit the foil hound?
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It gets better from shell energy, they predict that I’ll use £201 a month so advise I increase my payments to £280 a month, I owe them £31.60
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The issue is , when you try to shop around my cheapest deal is£289 compared to £135 I am paying ,the thing that has pissed me off the most I'd the standard charge going up from 10p per day to 47p for electric and 27p a day for gas that along is around £135 a year increase.
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I reduced the flow rate on my heating when we were going into the winter and, much against my wife’s wishes, I reduced all the programmer settings by just one degree.
She was convinced she would be cold but in actual fact we don’t think it feels any different.
I however bolster the draught excluder products on the window and door frames and that helped too.
What products did you use for the windows and door frames drfchound and did you notice a significant difference?
Hi mate. I used something from Screwfix, item code 43490.
It is a rubber self adhesive strip, it comes in a 25mtr roll.
If you have existing pvc windows and doors it is probably too thick to put on top of the existing weather strip which comes with the installation, as was the case for me.
So I ran it alongside the existing stuff, tight up to it.
Easy enough to do, cuts easily with a Stanley knife or even a pair of scissors.
I have found that it makes a noticeable difference in reducing draughty spots.
If you have vents at the top,of the windows always make sure they are closed in cold or windy weather too.
I forgot to say earlier that I also bought some of the foil insulation that goes behind the radiators.
I always thought it was a gimmick and would never be any good but I have changed my mind having tried it. I put it on all the radiators which are on an outside wall.
I only put it between the brackets on the back of the radiators because if you put it right up to the ends it looks crap and sometimes fall out. You could try fixing it in place with masking tape on the back I suppose.
In my case all of the above seems to have made a difference.
Did you take the rads off to fit the foil hound?
No mate.
Just cut the foil long enough to fit between the brackets and slide it behind the radiator.
If the radiator has two 15mm pipes coming up from the floor it might be a good idea to put a bit of masking tape on the top of the foil and tape it to the back of the rad.
My rads have 10mm pipes coming out of the wall behind the rad so the foil just sits nicely on the pipes.
Silver foil facing into the room of course.
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The issue is , when you try to shop around my cheapest deal is£289 compared to £135 I am paying ,the thing that has pissed me off the most I'd the standard charge going up from 10p per day to 47p for electric and 27p a day for gas that along is around £135 a year increase.
There aren’t any sensible deals around just now matey, probably because the energy companies don’t know how things are going to pan out yet.
I don’t really think that there is a need to increase the standing charge though.
They justify it as below:
Energy companies justify standing charges by explaining that they cover their costs for maintaining their networks, as well as other elements that come as part of running their business, such as paying government levies and grants like the Warm Home Discount.
Read more: https://www.which.co.uk/news/2022/03/explained-why-are-energy-standing-charges-going-up/ - Which?
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Thanks hound, its for my mother's, I think the pipes run along the wall.
I might try double-sided tape and see how that goes.
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One thing that I’ve notice since having smart meters installed is that I’m using 3-4p an hour with stuff left on standby, clocks, Wi-Fi, phones etc. working that out it’s about 72p a day or over £260 a year. I know you cannot turn off everything, fridges, freezers and the like. But if you can reduce it by a penny an hour. Over the year there is a saving to be made
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One thing that I’ve notice since having smart meters installed is that I’m using 3-4p an hour with stuff left on standby, clocks, Wi-Fi, phones etc. working that out it’s about 72p a day or over £260 a year. I know you cannot turn off everything, fridges, freezers and the like. But if you can reduce it by a penny an hour. Over the year there is a saving to be made
You can't turn the wifi off, it will mess things up apparently.
Do turn everything off at the wall that you're not using though. TVs, computers, set top boxes, lights, Chargers, microwaves. Anything that has a standby light. It will add up over a year.
Trouble is I already do this.
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One thing that I’ve notice since having smart meters installed is that I’m using 3-4p an hour with stuff left on standby, clocks, Wi-Fi, phones etc. working that out it’s about 72p a day or over £260 a year. I know you cannot turn off everything, fridges, freezers and the like. But if you can reduce it by a penny an hour. Over the year there is a saving to be made
Modern appliances, made after 2013 should only use 1watt/hr on standby, the fridge will be using the most juice, you can possibly save money by having a thermometer inside and running it at the correct temp and make sure the seals are in good nick.
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Don't boil a full kettle if you don't need to.
I'm in the habit of measuring cold water from as many cupfulls as I need. The kettle boils a lot quicker if it's only doing a couple of cups of water.
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How many hot tubs will not be used or put up for sale this year?
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If you can still afford to cook vegetables (apparently people are turning spuds down at food banks because they are too expensive to cook!)
Get a stacking steamer. Spuds in the pot, lighter veg on top. One ring will do the lot.
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This thread is insane. In what world does the 5th richest country need people sharing tips on saving money from doing things they would have done without a thought a year ago.
Whilst the energy companies make profits and other countries put caps on price rises.
Fair play to anyone who voted for this government and still believe they made the right choice.
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It's going to get worse in the autumn DO. Energy prices are due to rise 50% again, and with winter coming on too.
Still, it could be worse. In nations that aren't so wealthy, it's really going to bite. They are already rioting in Sri Lanka.
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Sharing cost saving tips is a good idea IMO.
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Sharing cost saving tips is a good idea IMO.
It is but shouldn't be needed in 2022 in the 5th richest country.
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Here's a tip from my dear old Sainted Mum
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Sharing cost saving tips is a good idea IMO.
It is but shouldn't be needed in 2022 in the 5th richest country.
But even in the richest country on Earth there will be people who need to know some energy saving tips.
Not everyone has a bottomless pit of money.
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I think you might be missing the point there H.
Cheers!
BobG
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These sets of numbers explain a lot
''Household total wealth in Great Britain: April 2018 to March 2020''
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/bulletins/totalwealthingreatbritain/april2018tomarch2020
''Which Countries Have the Most Wealth Per Capita?''
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/countries-wealth-per-capita/
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I think you might be missing the point there H.
Cheers!
BobG
No Bob, I’m not.
I fully understand what DO is saying.
My point is very simple, it is good to share tips.
Plenty of others on this thread agree too.
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I think you might be missing the point there H.
Cheers!
BobG
No Bob, I’m not.
I fully understand what DO is saying.
My point is very simple, it is good to share tips.
Plenty of others on this thread agree too.
So do I.
A few I haven't seen mentioned. Use sites like Quidco, topcashback etc for purchases. They won't all track but you'll make money back. I actually track how much we have had back through these and over 7 years it's well over £3000. Alongside that use things like work schemes to get vouchers or cards for stores at a discount (even the DNA card scheme through rovers is good for that).
Other obvious ones. Washing line over tumble drier, the air is free. Led light bulbs etc. Driving, turn off your Aircon if you can it saves fuel or if you have a hybrid turn off your heating on a short journey or it'll turn the engine on.
I'm sure there's loads more, already seen one or two I didn't expect in places and we've just started turning off plugs etc much more.
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Well at least a climate change portfolio holder has finger on the pulse
https://twitter.com/anotherJon/status/1511005694572519429?t=-t-EV4ZZqFQztW1xpnFvag&s=19
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Well eon has just informed me they are putting my direct debit up to £189 from may ,the thing is I cannot put it back to the £135 I'm paying ,so tomorrow I'm going to cancel paying this way and just pay the bill each month when they send it as in Feb I was paying £88 march £135 now they want £189 that not a 54% increase
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You had better be sure to hold some dosh back for the end of the year then Rich for when the big bills come in the winter.
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You had better be sure to hold some dosh back for the end of the year then Rich for when the big bills come in the winter.
problem is at the minute I have been on the sick since January and now only getting £500 a month sick pay ,saving only last so long so giving them 40% of my sick pay is not happening come August I will be fine and payback any money I owe ,they just need to accept what I can pay till then
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You had better be sure to hold some dosh back for the end of the year then Rich for when the big bills come in the winter.
problem is at the minute I have been on the sick since January and now only getting £500 a month sick pay ,saving only last so long so giving them 40% of my sick pay is not happening come August I will be fine and payback any money I owe ,they just need to accept what I can pay till then
That's a tough gig Rich, you can't claim any of the support allowances?
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You had better be sure to hold some dosh back for the end of the year then Rich for when the big bills come in the winter.
problem is at the minute I have been on the sick since January and now only getting £500 a month sick pay ,saving only last so long so giving them 40% of my sick pay is not happening come August I will be fine and payback any money I owe ,they just need to accept what I can pay till then
That's a tough gig Rich, you can't claim any of the support allowances?
no nothing ,I have spoken to eon who to be fair was very good and helpful and have reduced my payments until I'm back at work and can pay more and get caught up, I would recommend anyone who is struggling to call them as they will help ,but if people don't call they cannot help.
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You had better be sure to hold some dosh back for the end of the year then Rich for when the big bills come in the winter.
problem is at the minute I have been on the sick since January and now only getting £500 a month sick pay ,saving only last so long so giving them 40% of my sick pay is not happening come August I will be fine and payback any money I owe ,they just need to accept what I can pay till then
.
Good on you mate. It sounds like you are in control.
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Shocking discrimination against the disabled from the appalling Johnson:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/energy-company-obligation-free-insulation-disabled-people-lose-out/
No real coverage in the main news channels on this!
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It's been well covered in the main media Albie
No, wrong, apologies, only that the insulation scheme scrapping has been well flagged and that poor people would suffer the most.
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Here's some more useful ideas
‘Heat the human, not the home’: Martin Lewis guide for ‘desperate’ households
Money Saving Expert offers tips from heated insoles to layers of clothing in ‘damning indictment’ of cost of living crisis''
''As one respondent put it: “It’s a damning indictment of the depths to which this country has sunk when the cheerful guy who provided advice about the best savings, offers and phone deals is now tearfully providing advice on how not to die from cold or malnutrition. Thank you – I wish it wasn’t necessary.”''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/06/martin-lewiss-cost-of-living-guide-offers-advice-to-desperate-households
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Well...clearly I was getting away with dodging this (to a degree) for too long being on a communal LPG tank rather than mains gas...letter through the post this morning, 44% increase per litre, plus vat.
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Put dishwasher on after 9pm.
Every little helps.
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Only a matter of time before we have riots, totally agree with Martyn Lewis
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When it goes up in October again people who are struggling now will just think what's the point in worrying and just not pay it ,they cannot get what you don't have
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Nothing dead cat about this johnson, it's real ..............
''‘I’m frightened’: prepaid meter users feel early impact of price hike
Four people on struggling today and their anxiety over the prospect of another huge rise later this year''
''Tim, after the energy price cap hike, the 50-year-old says he now expects to spend roughly £32 a week of his monthly £325 universal credit on energy costs – almost 40% of his income after housing costs. Until this month he paid about £22 a week''
''Emma Rehling, who part-owns and part-rents a flat in Tower Hamlets, east London, gas prices have more than doubled. The 32-year-old, who lives alone and works in commhttps://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/apr/15/im-frightened-prepaid-meter-users-feel-early-impact-of-price-hikeunications, says the amount she tops up her meter has surged from about £30 a month to £70, even after she has slightly reduced usage.''
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/apr/15/im-frightened-prepaid-meter-users-feel-early-impact-of-price-hike
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What would your solution be to keep energy prices down at pre increased prices Syd.
Obviously you have to be sensible about your reply.
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Do I get 12 years to think about it hound?
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Do I get 12 years to think about it hound?
I think you would probably need that amount of time.
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Do I get 12 years to think about it hound?
I think you would probably need that amount of time.
for someone that claims not to vote conservative you certainly pop up with plenty of silly gotcha questions,
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Do I get 12 years to think about it hound?
I think you would probably need that amount of time.
for someone that claims not to vote conservative you certainly pop up with plenty of silly gotcha questions,
By the way, are you saying that the government have had twelve years to come up with a solution to something that no one knew about twelve years ago.
The question I asked is perfectly legitimate but I think that you are keen to criticise but not able to offer solutions.
What has the way anyone votes got to do with this anyway.
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talk to bb about it
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I’ll take it that you also have no idea then.
Full of blather as usual.
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I just thought bb is more your level of conversation is all hound.
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I just thought bb is more your level of conversation is all hound.
You can aspire to get there perhaps one day.
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I was right aye hound?
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I was right aye hound?
Another attempt to engage goes up the wall, well done.
You can have it.
#The last word.
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:)
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More people would just refuse to pay if this ever happened , Maybe give less to the share holders , Anderson suggested a "social tariff" to target help to those least able to afford their energy bills.
"I think it's got to the point now where the government in October, for anybody that's deemed to be in fuel poverty or vulnerable, and that will include pre-payment metre customers, a £1,000 payments should be taken off their bill and put into a fund," he said.
"That fund can then be repaid over a 10-year period across the rest of the customer base."
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sheesh
''Boss of collapsed Bulb Energy criticised for £250,000 salary funded by taxpayers''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/19/boss-of-collapsed-company-bulb-energy-criticised-for-250000-salary
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The plan will be to let the prices stay where they are roughly to get investment back into the North sea and export to Europe replacing Russian produce as quick as possible and get the UK back to being a net exporter of gas and oil.
The investment has to come from somewhere the governments expenditure is already extended so the British users of energy will pick up most of the bill at their expense, the upside will be on shore highly skilled and paid engineering and service jobs.
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What is going to happen is mass default on paying bills at the new tariffs.
This will push many of the marginal suppliers into insolvency;
https://www.energylivenews.com/2022/04/20/energy-chiefs-expect-severe-impact-on-customers-ability-to-pay/
So the industry will face a meltdown in the sector unless government intervene with targeted support measures.
A sum is already allocated to customers to cover the business failure of many unhedged suppliers to date.
North Sea extraction would be incompatible with UK climate policy, now set in law.
The viability of selling to international markets would be vulnerable to prices from other gas suppliers, and would also be undermined by widespread policy commitments to reduce gas dependency year on year.
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Even if the UK opens up gas fields in the North sea and starts fracking the desolate north...
It's not likely to impact gas bills because the stuff is sold on the international markets
And we certainly won't see any benefit in time for next winter
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What it is, is a monumental failure of long-term planning for the UKs energy supply and security.
Taken together with the unavoidable recession we now face. And the chancellor's apparent denial of that truth in being the only country in the G7 to raise taxes at this time.
On top of the country having a proven dishonest leader and a dodgy chancellor who doesn't pay his taxes..
You still have to wonder, taken altogether if it's enough to shake the electorates faith in the tory party.
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What it is, is a monumental failure of long-term planning for the UKs energy supply and security.
Taken together with the unavoidable recession we now face. And the chancellor's apparent denial of that truth in being the only country in the G7 to raise taxes at this time.
On top of the country having a proven dishonest leader and a dodgy chancellor who doesn't pay his taxes..
You still have to wonder, taken altogether if it's enough to shake the electorates faith in the tory party.
Back to the OP of all recent threads on gas and energy prices then, nothing has changed
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When there's an emergency Budget this summer, those Captain Hindsight barbs aren't going to be worth much, are they?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61207802
There is absolutely no justification for the lack of measures to help people out in Sunak's Spring Statement. There is no justification for not putting his hand up and admitting he should have done more.
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There has been measures to help some people out.
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Energy giant Shell has reported its highest ever quarterly profits as oil and gas prices surge around the world.
Shell made $9.13bn (£7.3bn) in the first three months of the year, nearly triple its $3.2bn profit it announced for the same period last year.
But the firm said pulling out of Russian oil and gas due to the Ukraine conflict had cost it $3.9bn (£3.1bn).
On Tuesday, rival BP also reported a sharp rise in profit, but the UK has so far ruled out a windfall tax. From the bbc
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But but the Energy companies don't want a windfall tax says our PM. I don't want a bigger gas or electric bill but have no choice
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Ukraine has announced it is going to have to start cutting Russian gas supplies into Europe.
The Russians aren't accepting Germany gas payments that aren't in Roubles.
A think tank estimates this morning that 1.5 million in the UK aren't going to afford to cover the basics of food and fuel this winter.
In the developing world 107 countries are already under stress, Sri Lanka is the first Government to fall.
This winter is going to be like nothing we've seen before
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We'll see if we can get the government's number 1 fanboy to tell us how they are going to sort it out, I'll go and put the kettle on.
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Gas prices started to rise steadily around last April before seriously rising around December, this along with 24 or so retailers going bust I would have thought it would make it a hot topic on parliament's opening day, did I miss it?
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There has been measures to help some people out.
'Some' being the most important word there.
My energy bill has gone up over 150% in the last year with not one penny's worth of 'measures to help'.
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There has been measures to help some people out.
'Some' being the most important word there.
My energy bill has gone up over 150% in the last year with not one penny's worth of 'measures to help'.
This is it, it's not just going to be those who are already struggling, or those just about managing. There are going to be a lot of families who will get by but will really start to feel the pinch.
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
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If anyone is trying to deflect and blame russia after 12 years of tories contact them here:
''The embassy of Russia in London is located at 6/7 Kensington Palace Gardens and can be contacted by telephone on 20 7229 6412 as well as by email info@rusemb.org.uk and kanc@rusemb.org.uk. The consular section is located at 5 Kensington Palace Gardens and can be reached by telephone on 20 3668 7474''
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That is good information Syd.
I take it that you won’t be making the call as it doesn’t affect you.
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Syd,
It's difficult to getaway from Russia being a major culprit in this. First limiting gas supplies to pressure Germany and the EU. Then invading Ukraine, causing chaos in the energy markets and havoc in the food chain. Particularly with the supply grain and vegetable oil from Ukraine.
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The prices increases were announced a fair bit before Russia invaded Ukraine, weren't they?
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Syd,
It's difficult to getaway from Russia being a major culprit in this. First limiting gas supplies to pressure Germany and the EU. Then invading Ukraine, causing chaos in the energy markets and havoc in the food chain. Particularly with the supply grain and vegetable oil from Ukraine.
This is true RD, but if the govt had taken steps much earlier to wean the UK off fossil fuels which they will need to do regarding the climate change response this mess would not be so severe for so many people. Insulating old homes a larger pool of funds for changing over to heat pumps, more offshore windfarms etc etc, after 12 years everything is at their door, there are no excuses. How long do you think the tories will need to get a grip on how to govern?
Protesters are miles ahead of government thinking.
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The prices increases were announced a fair bit before Russia invaded Ukraine, weren't they?
Yes because Russia had started limiting gas supplies before they kicked the war off.
If you remember, the first big alarm going off in the UK was when two large fertilizer plants shut down unexpectedly.
That was because the price of gas had spiked so high it made it unaffordable.
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So what did the tories do from 2010 to sept last year?
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Syd,
It's difficult to getaway from Russia being a major culprit in this. First limiting gas supplies to pressure Germany and the EU. Then invading Ukraine, causing chaos in the energy markets and havoc in the food chain. Particularly with the supply grain and vegetable oil from Ukraine.
This is true RD, but if the govt had taken steps much earlier to wean the UK off fossil fuels which they will need to do regarding the climate change response this mess would not be so severe for so many people. Insulating old homes a larger pool of funds for changing over to heat pumps, more offshore windfarms etc etc, after 12 years everything is at their door, there are no excuses. How long do you think the tories will need to get a grip on how to govern?
Protesters are miles ahead of government thinking.
I won't disagree there.
The government caved to housebuilders, in regards to higher standards of insulation years ago.
They tried to roll out an insulation program more recently that failed abysmally
The issue of energy should have been much higher on the agenda in the UK for decades. The dash for gas was the cheap option and we see the consequences now.
And so on and so on.
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Not wrong there RD, except I would put it a bit more crudely.
''The Robert Jenrick planning row explained
Housing secretary’s approval of £1bn development has come under increasing scrutiny''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered
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This is Gove discussing the Govt response to the cost of living crisis this morning.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1524284376078594048
Bit early to be on the Charlie, even for him.
Government by f**king buffoonery.
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So what did the tories do from 2010 to sept last year?
Have a read of the below article, which won't link but you'll find it on Google. The answer is a significant change in the picture accross all areas.
UK Energy in Brief 2021 - GOV.UK
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So what did the tories do from 2010 to sept last year?
Have a read of the below article, which won't link but you'll find it on Google. The answer is a significant change in the picture accross all areas.
UK Energy in Brief 2021 - GOV.UK
And the result for domestic consumers is ........ they cannot afford to heat their homes pud
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
The UK fertiliser plants were shut down Sept 2021, that was because Putin had already begun restricting gas supplies into Europe.
So yes, it probably was Putin to blame.
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
See above post by RD. :thumbsup:
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This is Gove discussing the Govt response to the cost of living crisis this morning.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KarlTurnerMP/status/1524284376078594048
Bit early to be on the Charlie, even for him.
Government by f**king buffoonery.
Watch out for Gove in the House later on.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PoetryRebellion/status/1177205819689115649
Hiding in plain sight. Absolutely off his tits.
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
The UK fertiliser plants were shut down Sept 2021, that was because Putin had already begun restricting gas supplies into Europe.
So yes, it probably was Putin to blame.
If it was just gas prices and everything else was running as clockwork, as it should be following 12 years of the money managers at the helm you could say ............... well ok, they got that bit wrong but overall ............
But the problem is there is a whole host of shit happening with the economy and if you look back on the major decisions made it would be hard not to think the economy was in a hole by design, no?
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
The UK fertiliser plants were shut down Sept 2021, that was because Putin had already begun restricting gas supplies into Europe.
So yes, it probably was Putin to blame.
If it was just gas prices and everything else was running as clockwork, as it should be following 12 years of the money managers at the helm you could say ............... well ok, they got that bit wrong but overall ............
But the problem is there is a whole host of shit happening with the economy and if you look back on the major decisions made it would be hard not to think the economy was in a hole by design, no?
I accept the pandemic has had an effect, I accept there are supply chain issues. There are other factors but nothing designed.
But the scale of the gas price rises are unprecedented. That has had a knock on effect of the price of oil and coal too. The war in Ukraine is effecting food supply (as are very high fertiliser prices - fossil fuels again)
And given the vast majority of the economy still runs on fossil fuels, that restriction of supply is largely what's behind this inflation. You can see it all around the globe.
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
The UK fertiliser plants were shut down Sept 2021, that was because Putin had already begun restricting gas supplies into Europe.
So yes, it probably was Putin to blame.
If it was just gas prices and everything else was running as clockwork, as it should be following 12 years of the money managers at the helm you could say ............... well ok, they got that bit wrong but overall ............
But the problem is there is a whole host of shit happening with the economy and if you look back on the major decisions made it would be hard not to think the economy was in a hole by design, no?
Well don’t you think that covid might have had a bit of an effect on things.
Of course you wouldn’t consider that.
Then WE (not you) left the EU after the Brexit vote and that is having an effect.
Just a couple of insignificant scenarios really.
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So what did the tories do from 2010 to sept last year?
After the grandstanding from the ginger tw*t representing Sheffield tying the governments hands at every opportunity, not much between 2010 to 2015.
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So what did the tories do from 2010 to sept last year?
After the grandstanding from the ginger tw*t representing Sheffield tying the governments hands at every opportunity, not much between 2010 to 2015.
You talking about Clegg? The one who single-handedly gave the green light to THE most destructive and stupid Tory economic policy since the 1920s?
Oh aye, he blocked them alright.
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Would that be the economic policy that the public decided at the next election to re-elect but this time without the LD anchor rapped around it Bol***ks.
The Lab strategy was left on the shelf,as usual.
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Would that be the economic policy that the public decided at the next election to re-elect but this time without the LD anchor rapped around it Bol***ks.
The Lab strategy was left on the shelf,as usual.
The fact that people voted for it [1] doesn't make it any less of a catastrophe. It's a fact that the 2010s were the worst decade for UK economic growth for 2 centuries. You'll not find a credible economists in the country that thinks Austerity wasn't principally resposinbke for that.
[1] Actually 60% of votes were cast for parties that were against Austerity in 2015, including even the LDs by then who realised how badly they'd f**ked up. But there you go. That's our electoral system.
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It doesn’t matter how you wrap it up bst, the Labour Party got slaughtered at the last GE.
I bet you didn’t complain about our electoral system in 1997 or in 2005 when Blair only won 35% of the vote.
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Would that be the economic policy that the public decided at the next election to re-elect but this time without the LD anchor rapped around it Bol***ks.
The Lab strategy was left on the shelf,as usual.
The fact that people voted for it [1] doesn't make it any less of a catastrophe. It's a fact that the 2010s were the worst decade for UK economic growth for 2 centuries. You'll not find a credible economists in the country that thinks Austerity wasn't principally resposinbke for that.
[1] Actually 60% of votes were cast for parties that were against Austerity in 2015, including even the LDs by then who realised how badly they'd f**ked up. But there you go. That's our electoral system.
The fact that the 2010's "were the worst decade for UK economic growth for 2 centuries" might just of had a very small matter of a worldwide economic recession the likes of which had not been seen for over 80years to deal with. That and the lousy legacy left of an outward bound Labour spending everyone's money again, and not being prudent in the good times to alleviate the bad.
Your second point is again moot because you know that in a first past the post system,1st is everything and all the also ran's added together makes no difference to the governance of the country.
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It doesn’t matter how you wrap it up bst, the Labour Party got slaughtered at the last GE.
I bet you didn’t complain about our electoral system in 1997 or in 2005 when Blair only won 35% of the vote.
……
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It doesn’t matter how you wrap it up bst, the Labour Party got slaughtered at the last GE.
I bet you didn’t complain about our electoral system in 1997 or in 2005 when Blair only won 35% of the vote.
The last general election was highly unusual, in that it wasn't primarily about the economy.
Brexit and sovereignty had been raised to such a level that it put all else into the shade
If Brexit hadn't become the monster it did, it would have been fascinating to see what the election would have focussed on .
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It doesn’t matter how you wrap it up bst, the Labour Party got slaughtered at the last GE.
I bet you didn’t complain about our electoral system in 1997 or in 2005 when Blair only won 35% of the vote.
The last general election was highly unusual, in that it wasn't primarily about the economy.
Brexit and sovereignty had been raised to such a level that it put all else into the shade
If Brexit hadn't become the monster it did, it would have been fascinating to see what the election would have focussed on .
Quite possibly RD, but it still doesn’t change my point about not complaining when Labour did win.
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It doesn’t matter how you wrap it up bst, the Labour Party got slaughtered at the last GE.
I bet you didn’t complain about our electoral system in 1997 or in 2005 when Blair only won 35% of the vote.
The last general election was highly unusual, in that it wasn't primarily about the economy.
Brexit and sovereignty had been raised to such a level that it put all else into the shade
If Brexit hadn't become the monster it did, it would have been fascinating to see what the election would have focussed on .
And...no-one was talking about the 2019 election.
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Would that be the economic policy that the public decided at the next election to re-elect but this time without the LD anchor rapped around it Bol***ks.
The Lab strategy was left on the shelf,as usual.
The fact that people voted for it [1] doesn't make it any less of a catastrophe. It's a fact that the 2010s were the worst decade for UK economic growth for 2 centuries. You'll not find a credible economists in the country that thinks Austerity wasn't principally resposinbke for that.
[1] Actually 60% of votes were cast for parties that were against Austerity in 2015, including even the LDs by then who realised how badly they'd f**ked up. But there you go. That's our electoral system.
The fact that the 2010's "were the worst decade for UK economic growth for 2 centuries" might just of had a very small matter of a worldwide economic recession the likes of which had not been seen for over 80years to deal with. That and the lousy legacy left of an outward bound Labour spending everyone's money again, and not being prudent in the good times to alleviate the bad.
Your second point is again moot because you know that in a first past the post system,1st is everything and all the also ran's added together makes no difference to the governance of the country.
DD
If you want to discuss macroeconomics I'm game.
Start with this graph, which, by the way, includes the Great Depression, so that covers your "worst for 80 years" argument.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-px5Ykq0uaNE/T1nqaTjf3lI/AAAAAAAAACQ/bKZxlm4WH44/s1600/March09+GDP.jpg)
See if you can have a wild guess when, on that graph, the 2010 election happened and the Tories (with Clegg's help) imposed Austerity.
Go on. I dare you.
As for elections, yes of course the Tories won in 2015. My point was that the country overwhelmingly voted for anti-Austerity parties. Do you disagree?
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It doesn’t matter how you wrap it up bst, the Labour Party got slaughtered at the last GE.
I bet you didn’t complain about our electoral system in 1997 or in 2005 when Blair only won 35% of the vote.
The last general election was highly unusual, in that it wasn't primarily about the economy.
Brexit and sovereignty had been raised to such a level that it put all else into the shade
If Brexit hadn't become the monster it did, it would have been fascinating to see what the election would have focussed on .
And...no-one was talking about the 2019 election.
YOU though were talking about how crap our electoral system is.
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It doesn’t matter how you wrap it up bst, the Labour Party got slaughtered at the last GE.
I bet you didn’t complain about our electoral system in 1997 or in 2005 when Blair only won 35% of the vote.
The last general election was highly unusual, in that it wasn't primarily about the economy.
Brexit and sovereignty had been raised to such a level that it put all else into the shade
If Brexit hadn't become the monster it did, it would have been fascinating to see what the election would have focussed on .
And...no-one was talking about the 2019 election.
YOU though were talking about how crap our electoral system is.
……
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
See above post by RD. :thumbsup:
So the government have been on notice since at least then...and yet nothing. And they're still making excuses to sit on their hands until Autumn because they'll 'have a better idea what the problem is' by then. I thought we elected governments who were supposed to be competent enough to be on top of things and not go missing when they're needed.
-
Would that be the economic policy that the public decided at the next election to re-elect but this time without the LD anchor rapped around it Bol***ks.
The Lab strategy was left on the shelf,as usual.
The fact that people voted for it [1] doesn't make it any less of a catastrophe. It's a fact that the 2010s were the worst decade for UK economic growth for 2 centuries. You'll not find a credible economists in the country that thinks Austerity wasn't principally resposinbke for that.
[1] Actually 60% of votes were cast for parties that were against Austerity in 2015, including even the LDs by then who realised how badly they'd f**ked up. But there you go. That's our electoral system.
The fact that the 2010's "were the worst decade for UK economic growth for 2 centuries" might just of had a very small matter of a worldwide economic recession the likes of which had not been seen for over 80years to deal with. That and the lousy legacy left of an outward bound Labour spending everyone's money again, and not being prudent in the good times to alleviate the bad.
Your second point is again moot because you know that in a first past the post system,1st is everything and all the also ran's added together makes no difference to the governance of the country.
DD
If you want to discuss macroeconomics I'm game.
Start with this graph, which, by the way, includes the Great Depression, so that covers your "worst for 80 years" argument.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-px5Ykq0uaNE/T1nqaTjf3lI/AAAAAAAAACQ/bKZxlm4WH44/s1600/March09+GDP.jpg)
See if you can have a wild guess when, on that graph, the 2010 election happened and the Tories (with Clegg's help) imposed Austerity.
Go on. I dare you.
As for elections, yes of course the Tories won in 2015. My point was that the country overwhelmingly voted for anti-Austerity parties. Do you disagree?
Pretty clear to see on that graph that after the 2010 election, the Coalition government started to make sow inroads into the recession after being elected during the 24month point, but never managed to bring it back down over the line because of the conditions that they inherited at the time, ie Labours spendthrift policies (if you put up a graph of comparable leading nations the graph would not look massively different, we was just a bit slower in reducing the fall) also they were never allowed to implement their desired policies due to the coalition partners in effect trying to prevent them, this caused the government policy to be a compromised version of what was required.
So the graph demonstrated that this particular recession dragged on for longer than the others, if it had continued you could see where the recession eventually topped out.
To me this is a good example of why Coalition government as well as PR systems would always cause a country like this big issues when it comes to governance.
I believe that policy should be planned for the longer term to iron out cyclical variations, but 5 year parliamentary terms don't encourage this to be the case.
When you say the country overwhelmingly voted for anti-Austerity parties, you really mean the parties who lost the election all wanted to throw more money at the situation which in some respects would of caused us even more issues now, with the benefit of hindsight. So yes if you ask many people that a good way to try to react to this situation is to throw money at it then yes they will vote for that cause.
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
See above post by RD. :thumbsup:
So the government have been on notice since at least then...and yet nothing. And they're still making excuses to sit on their hands until Autumn because they'll 'have a better idea what the problem is' by then. I thought we elected governments who were supposed to be competent enough to be on top of things and not go missing when they're needed.
……like Labour did in 2008 you mean.
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DD
You guessed wrong. The Tories came to power in month 30 on that graph. By that time, we'd been emerging from recession for about a year. How? By the Economics101 method. The mechanism that every economist in the world is taut as a standard. Government borrows money and uses it to get the economy firing on all cylinders. Only then should Govt spending be reined in. If you cut too soon, you throttle the recovery. Government borrowing doesn't matter at all when the economy is on its knees. You sort out the debt naturally when business is booming again.
That was all known for 80 years.
Cameron knew better. Clegg was too f**king useless to stop him when he could have done. And that graph shows the result.
You ask what happened after that graph finished? This:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRytlL6j4jBoRbjIRr4PxWXkfuFltgS9cESbw&usqp=CAU
We went onto a permanently lower growth trajectory. Again, you can see the link at 2010.
And the REAL irony? Cameron and Osborne said that Austerity was necessary to get the deficit down to zero by 2015.
But they didn't. Because they flatlined the economy through Austerity for 3 years. Which meant tax receipts never rose much and they had to keep paying more than they received. Which was EXACTLY what was forecast by this who understood the economics. You never, ever reduce Govt debt by cutting Govt spending in a slump. You actually reduce debt in the long run by borrowing and spending more in the short term. The cardinal sin of Austerity was getting that wrong. And every one of us have paid for it by living in a country that is maybe £1trn poorer than it should have been.
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PS.
I agree that some other countries also went down the Austerity rabbit hole, in particular in Europe. That doesn't excuse our f**k up.
The shining example of not making that mistake was Obama's USA. They never went for Austerity. Go have a look how their GDP went after the Great Recession.
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Agreed RD. Things will have to happen quickly to avoid that.
Maybe everyone should lobby Putin to see if he will call the war off
Was Putin to blame for the rise in prices in 2021 too? When £90pm was taken off me and my energy bill first went up by £40pm?
See above post by RD. :thumbsup:
So the government have been on notice since at least then...and yet nothing. And they're still making excuses to sit on their hands until Autumn because they'll 'have a better idea what the problem is' by then. I thought we elected governments who were supposed to be competent enough to be on top of things and not go missing when they're needed.
……like Labour did in 2008 you mean.
That Government was very active in the wake of the global crash. What did you think they didn't do?
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Not enough to win in 2010.
Who was at fault for the crash by the way.
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Not enough to win in 2010.
Who was at fault for the crash by the way.
In 2008? United States banks due to giving dodgy mortgages.
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The 2008 crash was principally caused by essentially no-one understanding the extent to which the unregulated shadow banking system had grown, and the risk it posed to global financial stability if (as it did) it collapsed.
basically, the reason for the Great Depression in the 1930s was that the banks had made too many dangerously risky loans and were al exposed to the consequences. When the economy slowed down, some debtors started to default on their loans. But because banks had borrowed so much themselves to make those loans, the defaults started to make banks nonviable. And then, that transferred the problem to other banks which had made the loans to the riskiest banks. Domino effect. A small initial problem became a massive systemic crash.
Countries like the USA and UK responded to that after WWII by bringing in stringent rules on how much banks could borrow to lend. And as a result, we have rarely seen high street banks fail. But by the early 2000s, the big banks were getting round this by running a lot of their dealings in ways that circumvented the regulations, in what became known as the "shadow banking system". Problem was that this shadow system was assumed to be so small that it wasn't a systemic risk. But it wasn't. It was stupendously huge. And when it collapsed, it had a similar effect to the Great Depression.
Actually, that's all b*llocks. everyone knows the real problem was that Gordon Brown pissed every penny we had up against a wall.
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Actually, that's all b*llocks. everyone knows the real problem was that Gordon Brown pissed every penny we had up against a wall.
This for you BST is surprisingly actually not far from the truth, after he'd fleeced the country by broadcasting his objective to sell 400tons of gold on the open market.
He virtually gave the stuff away ($275 an ounce) after this whatever he did was always going to be catch up.
He never caught up. Thanks Mr Broon.
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DD.
The gold sale was a very complex issue.
But let's take o your approach that it was a total and unforgivable misjudgement.
Let's assume that Brown should have held onto the gold and sold it precisely at the top of the market, 13 years later.
We'd have gained about $16bn. That would be $1.22bn per year that we held onto the gold. Or, roughly 0.05% of GDP.
Not a trifling amount, but it pales into insignificance against what we lost from Austerity. Estimated at perhaps £200bn just over the first three years of the Tory Govt.
Which raises a fascinating point about you. You claim to be a politically neutral, balanced sort. Yet you give it to Labour with both barrels on economic issues, but rarely ever have a pop at the Tories for mistakes on a different scale altogether. Odd, that...
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Write it up as a complex issue but the facts remain the same, This was a Labour Chancellor who was having a decent stab with the economy at that time, he wasn't in dire straits that he needed to sell the gold so why did he? could it have been anything to do with the old saying, it was burning a hole in his pocket, this along with his botched pension provisions has cost the nation much more than it could ever receive back in payments, if you add this to his other very clever economic machinations it means our grand kids and theirs will have Johnson's botched dealings to add to Broon's to pay for the foreseeable.
From my recall this was around the time that Boon's "soft touch regulation" of the financial markets was in full swing, as a Labour Chancellor he was quite happy to allow the markets more leeway then currently exists, the coffers where full and everyone was doing ok, i was making hay along with a very large part of the nation. They always say if its too good to be true then it always follows it's because its not.
As regards your estimates, your throwing them around like confetti, but that should not surprise me as its always been Labours way to handle the nations cash this way, so much so they even made a joke about it after the 2010 general election but like all the best jokes, this one had legs.
Nice whist the ride lasted.
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DD.
I think you've had your account hacked by a bot.
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DD.
I think you've had your account hacked by a bot.
Fair enough BST, we all understand.
Can you answer me one question that's bugged me for years,
Why do all Labour Chancellors always leave office having spent the nations money?
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Write it up as a complex issue but the facts remain the same, This was a Labour Chancellor who was having a decent stab with the economy at that time, he wasn't in dire straits that he needed to sell the gold so why did he? could it have been anything to do with the old saying, it was burning a hole in his pocket, this along with his botched pension provisions has cost the nation much more than it could ever receive back in payments, if you add this to his other very clever economic machinations it means our grand kids and theirs will have Johnson's botched dealings to add to Broon's to pay for the foreseeable.
From my recall this was around the time that Boon's "soft touch regulation" of the financial markets was in full swing, as a Labour Chancellor he was quite happy to allow the markets more leeway then currently exists, the coffers where full and everyone was doing ok, i was making hay along with a very large part of the nation. They always say if its too good to be true then it always follows it's because its not.
As regards your estimates, your throwing them around like confetti, but that should not surprise me as its always been Labours way to handle the nations cash this way, so much so they even made a joke about it after the 2010 general election but like all the best jokes, this one had legs.
Nice whist the ride lasted.
'Broons' soft touch regulation was in full swing and he'd been warned about it by Vince Cable.
However, at the time the tories were pushing him strongly to go beyond and liberalise regulation further.
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It's often overlooked but back in 2007 as now fuel prices went nuts.
Back then it was crude oil, with a run up in prices as high demand was meeting stagnating world oil production. It was probably this weighing on the world economy that broke the camels back.
Since then we've had a decade where fracking gave America the muscle to keep energy prices lower. However that's started falling away, energy is so tight now that it gives a reasonably large player like Russia the potential to manipulate the market.
Until they find a way to get cheap energy back, the global economy will struggle.
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Didn’t fuel (gas and oil) prices soar too just before the 2008 crash.
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Didn’t fuel (gas and oil) prices soar too just before the 2008 crash.
Yep.
If you look at the very long term the price of a barrel of crude has been fairly stable at no more than $30 (adjusted for inflation). The late 70s was a problem.
Around 2005 the price started to climb until it was hitting $120 or more in 2007/2008.
Since then the price has moved wildly up and down. Today it's hovering just above $100 a barrel, which I think is probably too high to allow the economy to grow steadily.
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It's often overlooked but back in 2007 as now fuel prices went nuts.
Back then it was crude oil, with a run up in prices as high demand was meeting stagnating world oil production. It was probably this weighing on the world economy that broke the camels back.
Since then we've had a decade where fracking gave America the muscle to keep energy prices lower. However that's started falling away, energy is so tight now that it gives a reasonably large player like Russia the potential to manipulate the market.
Until they find a way to get cheap energy back, the global economy will struggle.
Thers plenty of cheap energy options, it’s having the will to do it, every new build should be forced to install solar power and heat pumps, wind farms should be high on the agenda as well, getting the house in order with these things would also create employment
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It's often overlooked but back in 2007 as now fuel prices went nuts.
Back then it was crude oil, with a run up in prices as high demand was meeting stagnating world oil production. It was probably this weighing on the world economy that broke the camels back.
Since then we've had a decade where fracking gave America the muscle to keep energy prices lower. However that's started falling away, energy is so tight now that it gives a reasonably large player like Russia the potential to manipulate the market.
Until they find a way to get cheap energy back, the global economy will struggle.
Thers plenty of cheap energy options, it’s having the will to do it, every new build should be forced to install solar power and heat pumps, wind farms should be high on the agenda as well, getting the house in order with these things would also create employment
That's all good, just so long as it produces cheap enough energy. We'll know when it's doing that because the price of crude oil will fall back as clean energy is taken up instead.
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Ethical dilemma for you.
Now that the price of oil and gas is going through the stratosphere its become profitable again to gas frack in North America,
Now should the Americans open up the fracking sites again and extract big time to the point where the West can buy oil and gas from the Americans instead of from the despot in Russia. This would allow the EU as an organisation to stop funding the Ukraine War and allow the Germans amongst others to show their face again.
Is it doable or does Biden's morals only stretch as far as his front gate?
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FORMER International Trade Secretary Liam Fox has demanded an investigation into the Bank of England for failing to predict the hike in inflation.
... How is the Bank of England supposed to predict the actions of Vlad Putin???
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FORMER International Trade Secretary Liam Fox has demanded an investigation into the Bank of England for failing to predict the hike in inflation.
... How is the Bank of England supposed to predict the actions of Vlad Putin???
Hindsight ?
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Watching bbc 1 this morning they expect the price cap to go up in October to between £2700-£3000 a year ,I think people will just refuse to pay anymore than they are paying now even if they can afford it and I know many can not afford to pay now
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Eon say 20% of their customers are currently in fuel poverty. 20%!
Let that sink in and then understand, they are expecting that figure to go up to 40% in the winter.
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This is going to be a crippling recession.
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Eon say 20% of their customers are currently in fuel poverty. 20%!
Let that sink in and then understand, they are expecting that figure to go up to 40% in the winter.
20% of 8 million customers
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Eon say 20% of their customers are currently in fuel poverty. 20%!
Let that sink in and then understand, they are expecting that figure to go up to 40% in the winter.
20% of 8 million customers
Well yes but isn't that likely to be a similar percentage across the board?
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What are the chances the government will be praising themselves about how they are reducing energy consumtion.
Helping the country go green whilst so many cannot afford to turn in the heating.
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Saw an MP this morning saying that the easiest way out is to forego the green levy on energy
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Saw an MP this morning saying that the easiest way out is to forego the green levy on energy
I saw that being discussed about a month ago dude.
It would be an additional source of help but there still needs to be more.
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They have to do something as in October my bill will have gone 2k in 7 month ,where and how do they expect you to find that sort of extra cash to pay the bills, They come up with some bullshit way of loaning you the money again and paying it back over 5 year ,the Tories are making people poorer ,And labour will just bankrupt the country ,we are in a no win situation who ever we vote for ,Boris lies and I don't trust him and kier has the same personality as a plank of wood.
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The Tories aren't making people poorer. It's circumstances. The Labour Party aren't making people poorer it's circumstances.
The question is, who is best place to improve matters?
Given the circumstances..l think it's grim.
But given the Labour Party always want to invest to kick start growth, it might be a better bet... Unless the Russians are still clamping down on everything.
Rock and a hard place.
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I think what people worry about with Labour RD is their lack of a viable plan, lack of proper leadership and the financial mess they usually leave behind when they lose power.
I’m not so sure they have the ability to win a GE with all the division in their Party anyway so we appear to be stuck with what we have now.
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Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.
My opinion is in both cases, the UK government didn't cause it. I don't think the Tories dealt with the fallout of 2008 very well. I don't think we will cope now very well.
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Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.
Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.
Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.
[/quote]
I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.
It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.
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Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.
Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.
Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.
I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.
It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.
The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.
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Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.
Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.
Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.
I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.
It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.
The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.
If that is true RD do you think the decline has been wholly over the last twelve years?
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Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.
Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.
Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.
I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.
It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.
The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.
If that is true RD do you think the decline has been wholly over the last twelve years?
Much longer.
I guess since about 1914.
That was when we reached peak coal.
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Just as now the financial mess the government was in with Brown as leader was really international. The Tories hammered Labour hard but now they find themselves in exactly the same sort of position.
Isn’t that what the LP are doing right now though RD.
Second half of RDs post above:
This Tory government is riding into a storm. I expect they will try and find an excuse why it's not their fault. They are pretty good at doing this.
I seem to recall Browns government doing just the same.
It is just the way politics goes, the two biggest Party’s slagging each other off and their newspaper friends digging for dirt.
The UK is no longer a significant enough economy. Our governments no longer apply significant pressure on world markets.we just get battered in the storms.
If that is true RD do you think the decline has been wholly over the last twelve years?
Much longer.
I guess since about 1914.
That was when we reached peak coal.
I thought as much (perhaps not as far back as 1914 if I’m being honest) and yet there are people on here who suggest that it has all been down to this government.
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The UK is an island built on coal surrounded by fish...
But sometime just before the first world war digging out coal began to become uneconomic.
By the 1970s it was completely untenable. But then they discovered oil in the North sea.
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And to complete the story ....... instead of using the oil money to revive the old industrial areas and finance new industries what did the government of the day do with it?
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IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.
I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.
When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.
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Maybe they didn't fancy working in the city of london as financiers.
''Oil wealth key to Thatcher's legacy, analysts say
According to official figures, UK government revenues from oil and gas jumped from £565 million in the 1978-79 tax year to £2.3 billion in 1979-80, and rose to over £12 billion in 1984-85''
“[Tax revenue from North Sea oil and gas] has certainly been a major boost for the UK,” Jason Kenney, Head of pan-European oil and gas Equity Research at Banco Santander told FRANCE 24 on Wednesday.
''The tax revenues from oil have proved to be a “real windfall,” he said.
Part of Thatcher’s disputed legacy is her policy of closing state-run businesses she judged unprofitable. In 1984, her government unveiled a plan to close 20 pits with the loss of 20,000 jobs.
Many observers have drawn an unfavourable comparison between the UK’s use of its oil wealth, and that of its North Sea neighbour Norway.
“Norway got the same benefit, it put its money away, it has this enormous sovereign wealth fund,” the chief political commentator of the Financial Times, Philip Stephens, said in a Tuesday audio broadcast on the newspaper’s website''
“We spent it,” he said''
https://www.france24.com/en/20130417-north-sea-oil-tax-boon-for-margaret-thatcher
It's a lazy argument to blame the victims.
Anything like these enterprise zones?
''Enterprise zones 'failed to deliver' jobs boost in England''
''A multimillion-pound government policy to boost job creation has failed to deliver, research has revealed.
In 2011, the government announced "enterprise zones" in England to try to improve economic growth, forecasting 54,000 new jobs between 2012 and 2015.
But BBC-commissioned research found by 2017 only 17,307 jobs had been created in 24 zones around England - and in two areas the number of jobs had fallen.
The government said it had created 38,000 jobs since 2012.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-48856440
Let's not get into another debate about miners if you have factual data by all means post it.
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Eon say 20% of their customers are currently in fuel poverty. 20%!
Let that sink in and then understand, they are expecting that figure to go up to 40% in the winter.
20% of 8 million customers
Well yes but isn't that likely to be a similar percentage across the board?
Not meant as a criticism just adding another figure to clarify what the 20% of customers is. Far too many.
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Eon say 20% of their customers are currently in fuel poverty. 20%!
Let that sink in and then understand, they are expecting that figure to go up to 40% in the winter.
20% of 8 million customers
Well yes but isn't that likely to be a similar percentage across the board?
Not meant as a criticism just adding another figure to clarify what the 20% of customers is. Far too many.
Think they have 8 million customers ,so about 1.6 million in fuel poverty just from Eon
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Here comes the emergency budget, just in time to deflect attention from the Sue Gray report.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10850825/Rishi-Sunak-announce-large-package-measures-combat-cost-living-crisis-Thursday.html
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The ability of renewables to develop in the energy crisis is being artificially restricted by government;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/24/limits-on-renewables-will-keep-uk-energy-bills-higher-this-winter
Let's hope that the emergency budget removes these restrictions.
The only reason that you would keep them in place is to try to make a case for unaffordable nuclear, 15 years away from coming into production.
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The ability of renewables to develop in the energy crisis is being artificially restricted by government;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/24/limits-on-renewables-will-keep-uk-energy-bills-higher-this-winter
Let's hope that the emergency budget removes these restrictions.
The only reason that you would keep them in place is to try to make a case for unaffordable nuclear, 15 years away from coming into production.
Albie, what do you consider, all things taken into account do you think would be the total percentage of the enegey market for renewables in the near to mid term, and what would be the best type of energy to fill any voids. What would the balance be longer term?
I also noticed that the link you put up states that "if the 12GW the government is planning had been available last winter, energy bills would have been about £100 lower for the average household." would this have balanced out the "Levies on bills that support energy efficiency and renewables are falling, from £172 last year, or 15% of fuel bills, to about £153 on bills, according to recent figures from Ofgem."
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DD,
Difficult question to answer, as it depends upon the support mechanisms in place under the control of government.
How these change will impact the viability of different strategies.
I heard the boss of OFGEM today talking about the coming £800 rise in the price cap as though it was inevitable, not a political choice....absolute nonsense!
The UK has a big advantage in not being dependent on Russian gas.
Our disadvantage is that we have little gas storage, having stupidly decommissioned capacity in 2017.
We use imported gas to generate electricity, and export to international markets if prices make that attractive. The UK could choose to prioritise domestic self sufficiency, but that does not sit easily with the private ownership model for the energy sector in the UK. If these energy interests see higher returns on international markets, that is where they will go.
So any solution depends upon how quickly we look to replace gas with electricity, and what is the most cost effective method to produce that electricity.
Here is a guide;
https://renewextraweekly.blogspot.com/2022/05/uk-energy-policy-messes.html
What is clear is that both main parties have a very weak understanding of the energy economy.
Both steer clear of the root and branch review required.
In practice, this means political considerations outweigh effective technical solutions.
In short, I would say electrify all areas of the economy that can transfer from fossil fuels urgently, and maximise the production of that electricity from renewables with back up storage.
All possible with existing technology and at the lowest cost per unit produced, to keep bills as low as possible.
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IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.
I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.
When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.
What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.
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IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.
I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.
When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.
What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.
Amen.
My uncle and cousin were chucked out of work when Yorkshire Main was shut down. My uncle spent the next 5 years shuttling up and down the country, working on the Channel Tunnel and slogging back home every other weekend. My cousin worked as a financial adviser then re-trained as a prison officer.
The redundancy payments were the bare minimum those lads could be offered for careers and communities that were destroyed for political ends. Who the f**k has the right to tell them what they should and shouldn't have done with those payments.
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I worked at Yorkshire Main then transferred to Markham Main - ended up re training and I’ve had a pretty decent career - still miss the craic with the lads though.
There were a lot of lads didn’t even get chance to spend their redundancy, never been to as many funerals when the pits first shut
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IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.
I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.
When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.
The enterprise Zones were funded from the European Social fund, no longer available, Stainforth missed out on those funds because they had a working pit in Hatfield Colliery, even though the majority of the workforce came from miles around, there were about half a dozen people from Stainforth worked at the pit in its later years, Stainforth and it’s mining community got nothing at all to replace lost jobs
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IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.
I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.
When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.
What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.
I'm struggling to see what was condescending about the post, i mentioned some facts, redundancy was paid, enterprise zones were set up, training and support was offered, some took advantage of it, some didn't, some spent their money, some invested in their future.all factual so nothing to argue about.
So whats condescending about posting the above? maybe you were someone involved and didn't do too well out of it?
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IF i remember rightly i believe enterprise zones were setup in many of the old mining areas and villages, The vast majority of the displaced miners were given quire large payouts with the authorities hope to steer the redundant miners towards the enterprise zones and to set up business on a self employed basis with their payouts.
I think a great many of the displaced miners never took up the offers of training and business help and spurned away their payments in the pubs. Some did and made a very good fist of it, most were never really going to become self employed business minded people, its probably the reason why they went to work at the pit in the first place.
When the money was handed over it should of come with stipulations to having to cover a certain amount of additional training to enable them to have the best opportunities to succeed. Never happened.
What a condescending post - you obviously know very little about what happened. The enterprise zones employed a handful of people on a site where formerly a couple of thousand were employed. Not to mention all the support industries that collapsed.
Yes redundancy payments were given but they don’t last forever.
Amen.
My uncle and cousin were chucked out of work when Yorkshire Main was shut down. My uncle spent the next 5 years shuttling up and down the country, working on the Channel Tunnel and slogging back home every other weekend. My cousin worked as a financial adviser then re-trained as a prison officer.
The redundancy payments were the bare minimum those lads could be offered for careers and communities that were destroyed for political ends. Who the f**k has the right to tell them what they should and shouldn't have done with those payments.
BST, when you've got down off that ridiculously high horse of yours maybe you could explain to me where anyone has said the above?
Maybe ridiculously drunk with your raving socialist outrage?
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You know so little sir, but please continue living in your parallel universe
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Interesting couple of months coming up. Experts predict Russia’s gas storage will be full by July. At that point they will have to look at shutting down the wells in Siberia where the gas comes from. All 12,000 of them. It takes time to shut them down. And they are difficult to restart as the equipment is old.
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That's a very interesting point NR. I hadn't considered it, shutting down and reopening wells is a very difficult task.
So Russia is filling storage, whilst the EU is running on fumes.
Talk about brinkmanship. Still, there is urgency on both sides to resume business as usual.
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And talking of storage. Off gas topic I know,but two months ago it was forecast that Russia would run out of cloud storage by about now, as the US had cut off its access to the cloud. This is a country not blessed with being awash with data storage centres in the first place either.
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You know so little sir, but please continue living in your parallel universe
So you can’t answer the question, but I’m the one in the parallel universe?
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I thought by now that there would have been some posts about the government’s announcement about the fuel payment assistance measures.
To me it looks like there is a significant amount of help, with the poorest households set to receive around £1200.
Pensioner households to receive an additional £300 to add to their winter fuel allowance.
The £200 allowance in October now doubled to £400 and no longer repayable over five years.
I would be interested to hear from the posters who said they didn’t want the £200 loan, because it was repayable.
Do they still not want the £400 allowance which is not repayable?
Overall I reckon Sunak has done the country proud and so far it seems that the tv pundits think the same.
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£400 is not a lot when most gas and electric bills have gone up by £2000 since January ,that are also doubling the standing charge as well to about £300 a year last year 2021 my standing charge was £37 ,I was paying 10p per day in October it will be 90p per day , I am paying £190 a month when it goes up I am not paying anymore ,they can just put me in dept , It is not even be a case of not affording it, it the case of the robbing bxxdards just making more and more money .
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And lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!
BobG
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Hound,
It is very welcome short term, but the bottom line is continued increases in energy costs.
Essentially, the levy takes short term excess profit, redistributes it to the low income groups, then takes that money back over a longer time frame as higher energy costs are baked in to higher consumer bills.
It is a 91p in the £ subsidy to the energy sector to invest in fossil fuels...that is the real point here.
I would ignore the media commentariat, they don't have a clue when it involves a detailed long range impact.
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Yes albie, I recognise that it is a short term measure but it is still welcome never the less.
Energy prices may fall next year but no one knows for sure so I feel confident that the situation will be reviewed then.
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Bob, those small share owners have had a hard time of it for a couple of years some losing quite a lot on their share value when there was no clamour to hit any oil and gas companies.
Also the big share owners apart from very few big individual share owners are the pension companies, so basically your quite happy to hit the small guy when for once there share income has been good after a few bad years and pensioners, and tar them with being the elite who want hammering.
Royal Dutch Shell is now domiciled in London for the last few years because the Dutch government taxed them too highly and it was prudent to move headquarters over here and pay taxes here, they would not be here under a Labour Government, or some of the other big companies to take a hit, and people like you would be expected to just suck eggs, they emptied the coffers the last time, and we all have a poorer pension because of the hit they took off Brown.
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By the way we are a net exporter of energy to the EU at the moment replacing some of their dependence on Russia I suppose and the outages for repair of so many nuclear power stations in France. Notice their threats of power supplies to Jersey and the fishing problem has died a death for the time being
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And lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!
BobG
Nothing wrong with shares or dividends. We need to get away from that mentality.
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Importer or exporter of petroleum products UK to 2013
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=16971#:~:text=For%20almost%20a%20decade%2C%20the,exporter%20of%20refined%20petroleum%20products.
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And lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!
BobG
Nothing wrong with shares or dividends. We need to get away from that mentality.
That's quite true pud, but if the government via policy wants people to own shares as part of its plan to support pensioners and then drives its political agenda to support business at almost any cost to maintain its vote is that fair?
I wonder how many of the millions forced to accept welfare and use foodbanks own shares?
And further to this (there's always more, aye pud)
Nothing wrong with paying tax We need to get away from that mentality.
The government needs to be honest about why it wants to project an image of being a lower taxing gov't even though it isn't.
It needs to be honest and say 'we the tories don't want want to pay for the NHS, education, police, utilities, public transport, roads and anything else required for the country to maintain services, we want a user pays system and if you can't afford it tough'
There is nothing wrong with lower taxes provided there is enough money raised to pay for the above and more, what is the point of being the wealthiest 6th or 7th country in the world if it's only on paper with a huge section of society in poverty including a large portion of those in wages poverty.
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Don't start me on tax policy in this country Sydney!! It strikes me as being the most deceitful, corrupt, self serving and dishonest system in the country.
BobG
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Exactly Bob, I was hoping to see a response from our man of numbers but he seems not to have seen my post.
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Exactly Bob, I was hoping to see a response from our man of numbers but he seems not to have seen my post.
Correct, downside of working til 11pm at night I guess.
I fundamentally disagree with many parts of tax policy in most countries right back to my university days but particularly this country, I'd rip it up completely as it is full of flaws and this government offers far too high a tax option (note many on the left don't think it's high enough).
Where I have a big difference with your approach is things like healthcare. There are far better models we can use to make the care better. I don't fear private involvement, in fact I favour it, I do though fear the current governments ability to regulate it properly if used. Andy Burnham for one realised this 15 years ago. It can have huge benefits for all of us if we use and legislate it properly, but I doubt that would ever happen.
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If Andy Burham can get more from less out of private health care it will be a first, if you can show where another country's health care system runs more efficiently it will make an interesting read.
There of course will be a few caveats where the tories have made a b*llocks of things but I think you will struggle.
And your answer to the consequences of a race to the base with lower taxes?
''NHS comes top in healthcare survey
The NHS has been declared the best healthcare system by an international panel of experts who rated its care superior to countries which spend far more on health.''
This article is more than 7 years old (only 4 years into the tories plan)
Study by Washington-based foundation puts healthcare provision in the US at the bottom of its report
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health
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Bob, those small share owners have had a hard time of it for a couple of years some losing quite a lot on their share value when there was no clamour to hit any oil and gas companies.
Also the big share owners apart from very few big individual share owners are the pension companies, so basically your quite happy to hit the small guy when for once there share income has been good after a few bad years and pensioners, and tar them with being the elite who want hammering.
Royal Dutch Shell is now domiciled in London for the last few years because the Dutch government taxed them too highly and it was prudent to move headquarters over here and pay taxes here, they would not be here under a Labour Government, or some of the other big companies to take a hit, and people like you would be expected to just suck eggs, they emptied the coffers the last time, and we all have a poorer pension because of the hit they took off Brown.
Spot on Selby, Browns raid on the Pension funds cause them to mass panic and invest 609 billion £ out of the UK no doubt causing the collapse in 2008
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And yet it's the Tories who keep on telling us all to 'move on....' Funny that.
Are you familiar with the concept of sunk costs Sproty?
BobG
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Bob, those small share owners have had a hard time of it for a couple of years some losing quite a lot on their share value when there was no clamour to hit any oil and gas companies.
Also the big share owners apart from very few big individual share owners are the pension companies, so basically your quite happy to hit the small guy when for once there share income has been good after a few bad years and pensioners, and tar them with being the elite who want hammering.
Royal Dutch Shell is now domiciled in London for the last few years because the Dutch government taxed them too highly and it was prudent to move headquarters over here and pay taxes here, they would not be here under a Labour Government, or some of the other big companies to take a hit, and people like you would be expected to just suck eggs, they emptied the coffers the last time, and we all have a poorer pension because of the hit they took off Brown.
Spot on Selby, Browns raid on the Pension funds cause them to mass panic and invest 609 billion £ out of the UK no doubt causing the collapse in 2008
And if anyone can please explain why shareholders should be helped from beyond what the board that runs the company can do?
Surely shares are like any other capitalist venture you pays your money and takes your chances. Shares often pay more than bank interest but when they don't it's the premium on the risk. Shareholders are not nor should be a protected species.
The country cannot run on fresh air, the money has to come from somewhere. How it is distributed is the problem.
Roots of pensions debacle traced to Lawson Act
By Richard Miles and Antonia Senior, The Times 2003
THE roots of today’s pension contribution holiday debacle can be traced back to the Budget of 1986 and Nigel Lawson’s drive to curb tax relief for the pensions industry.
In that year’s Finance Act the former Chancellor, now Lord Lawson of Blaby, introduced a law that effectively imposed a 5 per cent cap on the surplus of an employer’s pension fund.
He offered employers the choice of using surplus assets above this cap to improve benefits for members, or to take a contributions holiday. Otherwise, the assets would be heavily taxed. Predictably, employers opted for the holiday.
Raj Mody, partner at Hewitt, Bacon & Woodrow, the actuary, said: “I think the Government was paranoid at the time at the idea that companies were using the tax haven of their pension schemes to secrete away money. That idea now is a million miles away from reality.”
Opposition to the move was strong. Both the Confederation of British Industry and the Trades Union Congress said the limit was too low. They gave warning that the security of pension schemes could be threatened.
Inland Revenue statistics show that between 1994 and 1999, employers took annual contribution holidays worth £2.5 billion. Other companies opted to keep on making contributions, but at a reduced rate. The Revenue estimates they saved between £850 million and £1 billion each year.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/roots-of-pensions-debacle-traced-to-lawson-act-333ltkp2d3q
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More light at the end of the sewer?
''Key nations agree to halt funding for new fossil fuel projects
The Group of Seven pledges to phase out unabated coal plants by 2035''
''Top environmental ministers from the Group of Seven major industrial countries agreed Friday to end government financing for international coal-fired power generation and to accelerate the phasing out of unabated coal plants by the year 2035.
The group said that it would aim to have “predominantly decarbonized electricity sectors by 2035.”
The commitments on the phaseout of coal plants will particularly affect Japan, which relies heavily on coal-fired power plants.
Unabated coal plants include those that have not yet adopted technology for capturing and using carbon dioxide.
The G-7 ministers also said that new road vehicles in their countries would be “predominantly” zero-emissions vehicles by 2030, and that they plan to accelerate cuts in the use of Russian natural gas, which would be replaced by clean power in the long term''
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2022/05/27/g7-coal-phaseout-fossil-fuel/
They are Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the UK and the United States.
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We're doing well on that then aren't we....
BobG
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Yes Bob it's a good move a great move. Oz has just tuned a bit of a corner and understands now that due to doing nothing for the past 10 years it compresses what needs to be done to meet 2035 targets into around 12 or so years.
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And lots to be paid out as dividends to those with the cash to buy shares.... Which party do they tend to vote for? Oh. Wait a minute!
BobG
Nothing wrong with shares or dividends. We need to get away from that mentality.
That's quite true pud, but if the government via policy wants people to own shares as part of its plan to support pensioners and then drives its political agenda to support business at almost any cost to maintain its vote is that fair?
I wonder how many of the millions forced to accept welfare and use foodbanks own shares?
And further to this (there's always more, aye pud)
Nothing wrong with paying tax We need to get away from that mentality.
The government needs to be honest about why it wants to project an image of being a lower taxing gov't even though it isn't.
It needs to be honest and say 'we the tories don't want want to pay for the NHS, education, police, utilities, public transport, roads and anything else required for the country to maintain services, we want a user pays system and if you can't afford it tough'
There is nothing wrong with lower taxes provided there is enough money raised to pay for the above and more, what is the point of being the wealthiest 6th or 7th country in the world if it's only on paper with a huge section of society in poverty including a large portion of those in wages poverty.
Still awaiting our man of numbers to clarify why a race to the bottom with lower taxes is good for the country and why it shows total disregard for those in poverty.
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Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base. Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc
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Crude oil prices are hitting $120 a barrel over the last few days.
We are starting to get up to the levels they were at when the financial crisis hit in 2007.
News also today that budget pasta is up 50%. Netherlands is about to be cut off from Russian gas, with Denmark not far behind.
I'm starting to feel depressed about the way things are heading.
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Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base. Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc
Works really well in America, that approach.
Question: which country has the better overall social cohesion and lower levels of absolute poverty? USA or Denmark?
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Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base. Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc
Works really well in America, that approach.
Question: which country has the better overall social cohesion and lower levels of absolute poverty? USA or Denmark?
Dont you think thats comparing apples and pears.
Surly a better comparision would of been Denmark and the Netherlands?
Ive been to both and i know which one was way more expensive for just about everything you needed.
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Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base. Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc
Sounds simple I don't understand why a pro-business party that has ruled the roost for a decade + would take the exact opposite approach and use such a blunt instrument as Austerity which has clearly failed on all counts.
How would it work in the real world pud?
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Well the Crux of it is your approach is tax heavily to help those at the bottom in society. My view would be make the bottom better off then you don't need that tax base. Incentivise business to invest and you don't need to tax them etc etc
Works really well in America, that approach.
Question: which country has the better overall social cohesion and lower levels of absolute poverty? USA or Denmark?
Dont you think thats comparing apples and pears.
Surly a better comparision would of been Denmark and the Netherlands?
Ive been to both and i know which one was way more expensive for just about everything you needed.
Denmark is expensive, sure, but they are also very well off. As are all the other Scandinavian countries. They also have far less inequality than either the UK or USA. And regularly top global quality of life surveys. And they have extremely high taxes and high quality social provision. There's a link there ...
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The Federation of Small Business is warning as many as 500,000 are only weeks away from collapse under the weight of energy costs and inflation.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/30/almost-500000-uk-small-businesses-at-risk-of-going-bust-within-weeks
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The Federation of Small Business is warning as many as 500,000 are only weeks away from collapse under the weight of energy costs and inflation.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/may/30/almost-500000-uk-small-businesses-at-risk-of-going-bust-within-weeks
''Nation of entrepreneurs: UK home to more small businesses than any other country in Europe''
''The UK is home to the largest number of micro enterprises which have survived five years in Europe. Britain created a whopping 265,255 micro enterprises with one to nine employees in 2013, of which an incredible 114,590 survived five years, more than any other country in Europe''
https://www.cityam.com/nation-of-entrepreneurs-uk-home-to-more-small-businesses-than-any-other-country-in-europe/#:~:text=The%20UK%20is%20home%20to,any%20other%20country%20in%20Europe.
It will be interesting how Sunak deals with this, he could incentivise business lifting millions out of poverty at the same time, let's see what he comes up with RD
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The EU have agreed a ban on Russian oil imports.
This is going to send the crude oil price higher still.
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I watched the original Dune film last night.
A famous line from the film struck a chord with me in relation to the commodity Spice.
Baron Harkonnen, former ruler of Arrakis, summarises its importance with the line: “He who controls the spice, controls the universe.”
Transpose spice with Oil and universe with World, or perhaps more specifically Europe and you get to where we are now.
Morally, doing everything to defeat Putin is perhaps the right thing to do. But at what cost? The UK and wider Europe got used to sacrifice 80 years ago, but times have changed.
Fuel prices only continuing to go one way. Utility bills rising. Food prices rising. A very deep Winter of discontent coming.
Putin showing no sign of letting up in Eastern Ukraine.
Europe cutting itself off from Russian oil.
Things are going to get a lot worse.
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Interesting also that all the embargo talk has been about Oil only. Which is much easier to import on boats etc. Gas, the stuff we use to cook and heat with gets into Europe via pipeline only. There is no other infrastructure in place currently to replace this. Not without extensive investment in time and money. Russia could really up the ante by shutting off this supply completely. This would plunge many European countries into utter crisis.
I’ve done some research into what the future of Europe without a ready supply of oil could look like. Calls for free public transport and partial or total bans on private use of cars being mentioned to conserve fuel supplies.Closer to home, if fuel prices continue to rise, there will be many that simply have to consider use of private cars, and possibly even ownership.
Crazy times.
As the world gets to grip with post covid recovery, now we have this.
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I remember the last time petrol coupons were distributed. 1973. I kept mine for years - on the off chance.
It'd be interesting how any government chooses to distribute some sort of 'voucher' if the need ever arises. What happens to those with two and three cars? What happens to those that live out in the sticks? Even to get to the doctors and dentist I for one have no choice but to either drive or be driven. There ain't no buses, walking is beyond my physical capacity and a bicycle would kill me!
BobG
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lest we forget when BoB G was a lad
https://www.reddit.com/r/WeirdWheels/comments/mptwan/during_wwii_fuel_was_heavily_rationed_so_many/
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This is either deluded, deceitful or both:
Johnson
UK can emerge from cost-of-living crisis 'very strongly'
Asked what steps he takes to stay in touch, the Prime Minister said: "I try to talk to my constituents as much as I can… but I think the answer to this is I recognise the country is going through a tough time economically because of what happened in Covid.
“I think we can come out of it very strongly and in the meantime the Government is going to have to use a lot of fiscal firepower that we have built up as a result of the tough decisions that we took to help people.”
The UK had already begun to emerge from the pandemic, growth was returning (best in G7! Remember?) forecasts were positive.
All that changed in the autumn of 21 when European natural gas prices exploded. Putin began to turn the gas taps off as he pressured Europe over Nordstream 2. Since then the Ukraine war has worsened the situation as Putin engages in an economic war with the west. Constraints in the supply of hydrocarbons and food are clearly what's behind the high inflation all of Europe and the wider world is experiencing.
Johnsons suggestions the UK will emerge from the cost of living crisis (caused by Covid) or that we might avoid recession are plain wrong. The war in Ukraine looks certain to go on and as it does Putin well knows things in the economy will deteriorate as winter approaches.
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They have just said prices will rise by 60% in October and 4% in February putting the average bill at £250 a month ,it will just for e more people not to pay it or sit in the cold,we are just been ripped off
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Might be even worse if Sunak gets the PM job, absolutely out of touch with the majority of the population
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Might be even worse if Sunak gets the PM job, absolutely out of touch with the majority of the population
You could well be right, but how many PM's have actually really been in touch with the majority of the population?
I can think of a few with the rags to riches backstory but did they really give two hoots for your average Joe?
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Just tick the 'don't know' box on the ballot paper
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I was watching the rugby yesterday, Aus v England, some big burly Aus fella was screaming in the face of a weeny white pale and frightened for his existence Englishman,
I thought of you.
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Don't think do
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More and more pundits and journalists are now talking about the likelihood of civil disobedience taking place, with people just refusing to pay their bills.
In the past, if people have continuously refused to pay their bills, they've had their gas or electricity turned off.
Surely they can't turn us all off. Big trouble ahead, methinks.
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Totally agree, the government has made a mess of the economy the pain should be spread in equal measures.
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Was talking to a friend yesterday and his bill is going up from £150 to £450 a month,an increase of 3.5k a year enough is enough,I was pissed off at paying 3k a year for a 2 up 2 down mid terrace ,some bills will be more than a mortgage ,just think you can afford the mortgage but not the gas and electric bill ,you know then something is wrong
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With rocketing energy prices, people needing to change their heating will be looking at electric instead of gas.
This new product seems interesting, particularly if you have solar;
https://tepeo.com/thezeb
Word is that government plan to decouple electricity pricing from the cost of wholesale gas.
Gamechanger if they do this for new electric heating.
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According to the BBC business pages the forward price of gas went up by over 20% yesterday...
BobG
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Completely mad prices for electric standing charges and unit costs in the UK;
https://twitter.com/CornwallInsight/status/1561688255699062791
No rational reason for this, just a leftover from the legacy pricing mechanism tied to wholesale gas prices. Plenty of scope for change on this!
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If only we had kept our pits open and not knocked down our power stations eh?
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Hindsight eh Filo, like with most things.
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We went caravanning last weekend. Got chatting to an elderly retired couple who said they were going to live in their van on the drive for the winter as it would be cheaper to heat. Not a bad idea .
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With rocketing energy prices, people needing to change their heating will be looking at electric instead of gas.
This new product seems interesting, particularly if you have solar;
https://tepeo.com/thezeb
Word is that government plan to decouple electricity pricing from the cost of wholesale gas.
Gamechanger if they do this for new electric heating.
Storage heaters back in fashion ?
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We went caravanning last weekend. Got chatting to an elderly retired couple who said they were going to live in their van on the drive for the winter as it would be cheaper to heat. Not a bad idea .
not bought a calor bottle in over a year, I should imagine they have gone through the roof, if they put the heating on electric it might not save much as Caravans lose heat quickly
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With rocketing energy prices, people needing to change their heating will be looking at electric instead of gas.
This new product seems interesting, particularly if you have solar;
https://tepeo.com/thezeb
Word is that government plan to decouple electricity pricing from the cost of wholesale gas.
Gamechanger if they do this for new electric heating.
Storage heaters back in fashion ?
Not quite, NR.
Watch the video....... you have a thermal store with 40kw hours reserve ready for use, so no need for supplementary storage capacity?
If you have solar, you are effectively transferring excess solar from daytime collection to evening use, with any top up optimized to least cost available source.
Without solar, you are still adding leccy at least cost, using the variable tariff.
Seems to me that most domestic use case scenarios are covered, with the key variable being future electricity pricing.
It will be interesting to see what price the combi version comes in at in 2023.
The current model needs a water tank, the new combi one will not.
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With rocketing energy prices, people needing to change their heating will be looking at electric instead of gas.
This new product seems interesting, particularly if you have solar;
https://tepeo.com/thezeb
Word is that government plan to decouple electricity pricing from the cost of wholesale gas.
Gamechanger if they do this for new electric heating.
Storage heaters back in fashion ?
Yep, pretty much NR, a lot more sophis' than a pile of bricks but improved technology surrounding retention and dissipation.
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I’ve read somewhere that sand has amazing heat storage ability?
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I’ve read somewhere that sand has amazing heat storage ability?
That would explain why it is hot in the Sahara desert then.
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I’ve read somewhere that sand has amazing heat storage ability?
That would explain why it is hot in the Sahara desert then.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi64fC_5N35AhVHdcAKHbP9Cv0QFnoECAwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.renewableenergymagazine.com%2Fstorage%2Ffirst-commercial-sandbased-thermal-energy-storage-is-20220707&usg=AOvVaw26IueXV0StlqxXcUmFS5CG
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I’ve read somewhere that sand has amazing heat storage ability?
Pretty much the best heat storage material is water. It takes extraordinary amounts of energy to heat 1kg of water by 1 degree, compared to almost any other material.
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The Spectator: Britain has a bold new plan for dealing with a winter energy crisis: "hope for good weather".
The Spectator!!!
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/britain-is-not-prepared-for-winter-blackouts
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I saw an interview with Phillipe Commaret, the managing director of EDF, this morning and when pressed on whether people would be cut off for non payment of bills he said that it wouldn’t happen.
I suppose we will see when the chips are down.
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I’ve read somewhere that sand has amazing heat storage ability?
Anyone that has done the sand dance from the Sea back to the sunbed will vouch for that
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Renewable energy now NINE times cheaper than UK gas:
https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1562433136025550848
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Renewable energy now NINE times cheaper than UK gas:
https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/status/1562433136025550848
And yet..
Sunak and Truss have spent the last month fighting like cats in a sack to be seen as the one most against new solar farms. Because the Tory party members they are trying to woo really are that thick.
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As far as I can see, whoever the next PM is, their policies are:
Cut taxes.
Spend a king's ransom sending half a dozen asylum seekers to Rwanda.
Ban cheap electricity generation.
Stewart Lee was 9 years too early with this pitch. He'd have won hands down if he'd campaigned like this today.
https://youtu.be/6KVO378tjsw
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A middle-class lefty winning over middle-class lefties.
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Yeah BB. I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right.
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Yeah BB. I hadn't thought of it that way. You're right.
I always prefer to be right, I find it easier to get a point across that way.
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The Germans are not happy with Olaf Scholz as the country teeters on the brink of recession there was 0% growth in July and the IMF predicts 0.9% growth next year, they have had their gas supplies from Russia cut by 80% and need to save 20% on Gas consumption immediately, which is not possible, they are trying to stock pile gas but can't despite having the facilities. France, Italy and Spain also in trouble, our growth is also forecast at a dismal 0.5%.
Olaf Scholz has been in Canada with a massive trade delegation trying to buy Canadian Gas but there is no infrastructure to export to Europe, German companies are there now wanting to build a pipeline which would come on line in 12 Months.Such a pipeline would mainly have to Cross indigenous land and that's a big No no for Trudeau
It's going to be a very bleak winter in Europe and the Populace is blaming who ever is in government.
I wouldn't be PM for a Gold Pig?!
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Macron warns of 'end of abundance' and the winter ahead. He's trying to prepare the French for what is going to be a horrific few months.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/24/macron-warns-of-end-of-abundance-as-france-faces-difficult-winter
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This from the Telegraph, detailing emergency measures the treasury is considering.
Whitehall officials are drawing up a “three winter” strategy to help families with soaring energy costs between now and 2025, The Telegraph understands.
They are working on options including short, medium and long-term proposals that will be presented to Downing Street early next month.
Work is under way to determine which measure could be rolled out immediately and in place this autumn, when the energy price cap will rise to over £3,600.
Treasury officials are also examining ways in which the UK’s energy supply could be bolstered in time for next winter.
“There is even one fracking company who reckons they could even get some energy into the market by next winter if they were allowed to get cracking straight away,” said a senior government source.
The firm, based in the north of England, has told the Treasury that, if it is granted a fracking licence immediately, it is likely to be able to inject new supplies into the market by January.
A “moratorium” on fracking has been in place since November 2019, but both Tory leadership candidates have said they would support it in areas where local people are willing to see it take place.
Edit. I guess that company would be Cuadrilla, who were the ones operating in Lancashire before the operation was shut down due to the earth tremors.
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This from the Telegraph, detailing emergency measures the treasury is considering.
Whitehall officials are drawing up a “three winter” strategy to help families with soaring energy costs between now and 2025, The Telegraph understands.
They are working on options including short, medium and long-term proposals that will be presented to Downing Street early next month.
Work is under way to determine which measure could be rolled out immediately and in place this autumn, when the energy price cap will rise to over £3,600.
Treasury officials are also examining ways in which the UK’s energy supply could be bolstered in time for next winter.
“There is even one fracking company who reckons they could even get some energy into the market by next winter if they were allowed to get cracking straight away,” said a senior government source.
The firm, based in the north of England, has told the Treasury that, if it is granted a fracking licence immediately, it is likely to be able to inject new supplies into the market by January.
A “moratorium” on fracking has been in place since November 2019, but both Tory leadership candidates have said they would support it in areas where local people are willing to see it take place.
Edit. I guess that company would be Cuadrilla, who were the ones operating in Lancashire before the operation was shut down due to the earth tremors.
there are PDL’s in place all over the north could be the one near Pickering?
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I'd like to see all the executives of fracking companies start each day with a full glass of the chemicals used for fracking, just as a precaution to see how safe the water supply will be.
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The politicians with an axe to grind against Russia are responsible for the forthcoming misery to be inflicted on the working masses. Most people want a decent standard of living and to be able to heat their homes and feed their families and are not concerned with far away wars. People like BST with his hatred of Russia are happy to see you all freeze just to try and get one over Putin. I'll bet the sales of multi fuel burners is going through the roof, so much for cutting emissions...
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Fracking would have got the green light in the UK but for the discovery of large deposits in the Weald Valley and Wessex with viable fields that could have been extracted.
The government were not very happy when the southern England areas were being coveted by the oil and gas industries, until then as long as it was based up north out of the way it was being touted as bringing prosperity to the north of England and the saviour of the countries power generation.
Then the loveys started having sit ins down sarf and protests in the nice quiet villages.
I always knew there was a lot of gas in Surrey, Hampshire. Kent, and Sussex, just didn't know it was underground as well.
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This from the Telegraph, detailing emergency measures the treasury is considering.
Whitehall officials are drawing up a “three winter” strategy to help families with soaring energy costs between now and 2025, The Telegraph understands.
They are working on options including short, medium and long-term proposals that will be presented to Downing Street early next month.
Work is under way to determine which measure could be rolled out immediately and in place this autumn, when the energy price cap will rise to over £3,600.
Treasury officials are also examining ways in which the UK’s energy supply could be bolstered in time for next winter.
“There is even one fracking company who reckons they could even get some energy into the market by next winter if they were allowed to get cracking straight away,” said a senior government source.
The firm, based in the north of England, has told the Treasury that, if it is granted a fracking licence immediately, it is likely to be able to inject new supplies into the market by January.
A “moratorium” on fracking has been in place since November 2019, but both Tory leadership candidates have said they would support it in areas where local people are willing to see it take place.
Edit. I guess that company would be Cuadrilla, who were the ones operating in Lancashire before the operation was shut down due to the earth tremors.
The NIMBY people will always object to Fracking in their own areas.
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Fracking has currently cost UK Taxpayers £32.7 million - and not a barrel of gas has been delivered.
From studies done to date, any shale gas produced from wells in the UK will be at a cost 30% higher than LNG and 3x more expensive than that produced in the US. It will have a negligable effect on gas and electric bills and add between 0.017-0.033% to UK GDP (its 0.2% in US).
https://www.research.manchester.ac.uk/portal/files/65318663/Economic_viability_of_UK_shale_gas.pdf
Its not suitable to extract from the UK and will be a total waste of money without solving anything
https://theconversation.com/why-fracking-is-not-the-answer-to-soaring-uk-gas-prices-177957
But of course the fossil fuel companies who fund the Tory Party want more taxpayers money for nothing - rather than develop renewable sources that are far cheaper and quicker to initiate.
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Unreal isn't it?
We will allow fracking. But we'll ban solar farms. This is what happens when you rule by gut prejudice.
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The only way fracking gets a toehold is if the cost of production is subsidized by consumer bills, or by the state.
It is entirely uneconomic, and like with uncompetitive nuclear, it needs massive financial support to supply expensive energy at a high premium above the cost of the same energy from renewables like solar or wind.
It is curious that the Tories are locked into the interests of the fossil fuel industry so completely. No-one who really believes in the market would touch these sources with a bargepole.
Good article on the posturing from the politicians in the Guardian;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/fact-check-is-net-zero-really-to-blame-for-soaring-energy-bills-green-levies-renewables
Much of the discussion in the mainstream is prompted by industry lobby interests, fact free and mathematically challenged.
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It is curious that the Tories are locked into the interests of the fossil fuel industry so completely. No-one who really believes in the market would touch these sources with a bargepole.
In the last couple of days one of our posters was saying that Thatcher shouldn’t have closed the pits.
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The only way fracking gets a toehold is if the cost of production is subsidized by consumer bills, or by the state.
It is entirely uneconomic, and like with uncompetitive nuclear, it needs massive financial support to supply expensive energy at a high premium above the cost of the same energy from renewables like solar or wind.
It is curious that the Tories are locked into the interests of the fossil fuel industry so completely. No-one who really believes in the market would touch these sources with a bargepole.
Good article on the posturing from the politicians in the Guardian;
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/fact-check-is-net-zero-really-to-blame-for-soaring-energy-bills-green-levies-renewables
Much of the discussion in the mainstream is prompted by industry lobby interests, fact free and mathematically challenged.
Albie, i'll ask this question again as last time i got my head bit off by the forum mongs,
I agree that fossil fuels have more than had their day and need to be phased out as soon as practical on both climate and health implications. In the meantime and until we manage to come up with a creditable, workable solution what energy source should we be looking to use to fill in the downtime from solar and wind if its not to be Nuclear?
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Energy storage devices.
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Energy storage devices.
Is that currently a creditable working solution?
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DD,
It depends what you are trying to store, and for how long.
Here is a UK example;
https://www.energy-storage.news/vanadium-flow-battery-energised-at-tidal-power-to-green-hydrogen-research-project-in-scotland/
Not only is it working, it is cost effective as well.
NR posted about the Finnish Sand Battery as a heat store earlier.
So Syd is right on this, energy storage will go hand in glove with new renewable capacity.
Don't forget we are transitioning to EV also......charging at night with cheap tariff leccy also acts as an energy store.
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DD,
It depends what you are trying to store, and for how long.
Here is a UK example;
https://www.energy-storage.news/vanadium-flow-battery-energised-at-tidal-power-to-green-hydrogen-research-project-in-scotland/
Not only is it working, it is cost effective as well.
NR posted about the Finnish Sand Battery as a heat store earlier.
So Syd is right on this, energy storage will go hand in glove with new renewable capacity.
Don't forget we are transitioning to EV also......charging at night with cheap tariff leccy also acts as an energy store.
The example you quote sound promising, but the scale is still small and at a development stage,
"The VRFB system “will integrate power generated by our clients’ tidal turbines and help optimise hydrogen production,” EMEC managing director Neil Kermode said yesterday (18 August).
“Energy storage solutions like vanadium flow batteries are crucial to creating resilient, clean energy systems of the future and we look forward to seeing the integrated system fully demonstrated later this year.”
The VRFB comprises 48 of Invinity’s VS3 battery modules which in combination with tidal power generators will feed EMEC’s 670kW hydrogen electrolyser."
So when you factor in the storage installation and the Tidal barrage i'm not sure how much this particular example is costing.
Would we really be saying that this type of system, multiplied a great many times is ready to take on the current load we get from fossils?
Or are we talking 10years plus down the road?
"Don't forget we are transitioning to EV also......charging at night with cheap tariff leccy also acts as an energy store."
Are you saying that EV batteries can be relied upon to contribute energy back into the grid, i'm sure its feasible but would it be practical, given that EV drivers will want the stored energy for their own personal usage in their vehicle?
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This is a very important contribution.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TorstenBell/status/1562787390452035586
It's making me re-think. The scale of the problem is simply too big to do what I thought (let prices rise and help out the poorest) or the other extreme (cap prices where they are now for everyone).
God knows I hope there are some very, very clever people in the Treasury with plans to shove under Truss's nose in 10 days time, because if not, the country falls apart by Xmas.
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DD,
Quick vid of the Hornsdale storage facility in Oz;
https://youtu.be/yZyb5pT8_Xk
Same thing needed with all mega leccy schemes.
Vehicle to Grid is very much a viable solution, providing a zero cost contribution to grid balancing.
I expect it to be a big development in the next few years as EV takes over from ICE.
https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/octopus-energy-and-national-grid-eso-hail-line-in-the-sand-moment-for-v2g-tech
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An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!
And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!
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The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.
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An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!
And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!
The chancellor has been;
https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721
There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)
I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer. A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets. That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
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The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.
At the time of writing no one from Government was available to be interviewed on TV, the Chancellor made a general media comment about every household getting £400, as I said in my post, perhaps you didn’t bother to read the whole post!
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An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!
And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!
The chancellor has been;
https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721
There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)
I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer. A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets. That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
But the current PM had the ability to throw another £50m at Ukraine!
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An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!
And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!
The chancellor has been;
https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721
There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)
I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer. A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets. That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
But the current PM had the ability to throw another £50m at Ukraine!
He does right now. But he can't announce we're going to do x in 6 weeks because he'll be gone by then.
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An 80% increase announced from 1st October, all while the PM holidays and doesn’t give a f**k, and the two wannabe PM’s just say madder and madder things and also doesn’t give a f**k, and the Chancellor says we are helping by giving everyone £400 for their bills and doesn’t give a f**k!
And no one available for comment this morning from the Government, surprise surprise!
The chancellor has been;
https://news.sky.com/story/soaring-energy-price-cap-will-cause-stress-and-anxiety-but-chancellor-nadhim-zahawi-insists-help-on-the-way-12681721
There's not much point the current PM saying anything as he doesn't have the ability to make the change given he's less than 2 weeks less in the job (why has it took so long....)
I have no bloody idea how they fix this, I don't think there is an easy answer. A better solution would be the big countries coming together and fixing the prices on the world markets. That's an impossible thing to do so I fear there's no way people can be protected.
But the current PM had the ability to throw another £50m at Ukraine!
He does right now. But he can't announce we're going to do x in 6 weeks because he'll be gone by then.
It’s right now action is needed, not in 6 weeks, he’s having a right old jolly at our expense, zombie Government
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Of course the current PM could have implemented any policy he damn well wanted.
If we'd been invaded, would the PM have f**ked off on holiday and said "I'm retiring in 3 weeks. Not my problem"?
This is now crisis management. Martin Lewis has been on Radio 4 this morning saying he had calculated this price cap as early as March. We've had 6 months to get a workable plan in place for a problem that, financially is bigger than COVID. We've fannied about and done nothing. While the Tory party leadership candidates have been engaged all summer in a "Who's the biggest reactionary bigot?" contest.
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The Chancellor, the man who claimed expenses for his stables is now telling us we should all cut back on our energy use, they are taking this piss and laughing in our faces!
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Ooh, cut back on my energy usage to reduce my bill.
That had absolutely not crossed my mind.
The man with £20 million quid in an Offshore tax haven is a genius.
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Much media gabble about how to get through the crisis, without considering whether the present arrangements are in any way sensible.
No-one seems to understand that supporting zombie companies with public money does nothing to sort out the issue.
Here is why:
https://www.current-news.co.uk/news/60-of-remaining-smaller-energy-suppliers-are-technically-insolvent-says-price-bailey
So let these insolvent companies go, and put their customers (and those from Bulb) into a new public supply company, tasked with providing least cost energy from real renewables, and backed by the public purse via tax income.
Tinkering with the system is simply irrelevant if it does not prevent consumers being vulnerable to further disruption of a weak system of extraction and supply.
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Ooh, cut back on my energy usage to reduce my bill.
That had absolutely not crossed my mind.
The man with £20 million quid in an Offshore tax haven is a genius.
They genuinely think we are all thick
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Ooh, cut back on my energy usage to reduce my bill.
That had absolutely not crossed my mind.
The man with £20 million quid in an Offshore tax haven is a genius.
They genuinely think we are all thick
Probkrm is, this is how badly some people are informed about energy costs.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/money/16301543/how-much-cost-electric-blanket/amp/
Scroll down and see if you can spot the mistake.
That journalist has overestimated the electric cost of an electric blanket by a factor of 7 (at the prices then in operation).
Actually one of THE best ways you can save money is to use an electric blanket and turn your gas central heating down a lot at night. I didn't know that before today.
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I get up in a morning and there is already 1£ on the smart meter from midnight, bar turning everything off at the socket and do without my security cameras and internet, I’m not sure where I can use less energy
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Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.
We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.
It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.
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Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.
We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.
It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.
We did away with a natural resource that we had in abundance, Coal! We demolished all the coal fired powerstations, even though clean coal technology is out there, all in the pursuit of lowering our carbon footprint, while Countries like China build more Coal fired powerstations increasing their footprint
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Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.
We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.
It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.
You're right that there is no way the economy continues to function without massive Govt intervention.
The problem is, the scale required is eye-watering.
LAbour's plan to cap prices at the May 2022 value would, according to the Resolution Foundation Twitter thread I posted last night (please read it - it is the clearest description of the scale of the issue I've yet seen) cost £36bn this year and £64bn next year.
But here's the rub. That's based on the difference between the April and October cap prices. £1900 to £3550. The expectations now are that to reflect market gas prices, the cap rises to £5000 by April and possibly £7000 by this time next year. If the latter is correct, Labour's plan of holding the cap at £1900 would cost something like £200bn for 2023. And that's before support for business.
The scale of this dwarfs the GFC or even, potentially COVID. And I'm hearing nothing from Govt that suggests they are going to be as radical as the Labour plans. If they have a much smaller relief package, as you say, the economy will grind to a halt because even previously comfortable people will have to tighten their belts and massively cut other spending.
Here's how hard it's going to hit even the comfortably off.
Someone in a large semi with 2-3 kids, using 4000kWh of electric and 20,000kWh of gas a year (both a good bit above average) was paying £1600/year last winter. From October, they'll be paying £5000. By January, that'll be up to £6-7,000 and if the predictions of this time next year are right, it'll be £10,000.
That's a lot of spare cash to find even for someone who is comfortably off. It means a lot of other economies which hit the rest of the economy. Less going out. No holiday. No new car etc, etc.
In fairness to Zahawi today, he did quite rightly say that the No1 priority has to be helping out those at the very bottom end who have nothing to fall back on, and who are already living with belts tightened to snapping point. They must come first. But the political reality is that it's not only people at the bottom who will struggle. Even someone on £50-60k a year will struggle to fid the money for where next year's bills are going. And the political reality means that they will have to be helped too if the Tories have any chance of surviving this. So I'm expecting a huge wave of Govt support announced in a couple of weeks. Anything less and the next 3-12 months will be nightmarish.
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Point taken BST.
I think we can forget massive government intervention. What we'll get will be targeted and very disappointing. I think we can be getting ready for a recession like we've never known, unless there is a revolution in Russia and they string the bas**rd up.
We very, very rapidly need affordable energy and I think the only way to get near that is going to be fracking. I'm dead against it but given the time frame, I don't think anything else can start being rolled out significantly as soon as the spring. We have the existing infrastructure we just need the commodity to burn. I write these words in the full knowledge there was a proposed fracking site just a few fields away from where I live.
If we do frack then the gas cannot be sold on the open market, it's got to be supplied direct to the UK government. Whilst we are about it we need the Rough gas storage renovated and running and more storage solutions. We could be banging up onshore wind farms quite rapidly too. The government needs to have a huge insulation program announced too. It's no understatement to say we need to be on a wartime footing for this.
What are the chances of anything like this going ahead? Low I'd say.
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Energy prices of this scale will simply crash the economy, businesses won't cope as people will have no money for discretionary spending. At least what Starmer is putting forward, a solid price cap and tax the massive, undeserved profits of the oil and gas sector might avert that.
We need to put off some of the pain to get alternative energy sources up and running.
It might be worth asking how is it we have become reliant on the international gas markets. Then again energy security stopped being a topic politicians mentioned long ago.
You're right that there is no way the economy continues to function without massive Govt intervention.
The problem is, the scale required is eye-watering.
LAbour's plan to cap prices at the May 2022 value would, according to the Resolution Foundation Twitter thread I posted last night (please read it - it is the clearest description of the scale of the issue I've yet seen) cost £36bn this year and £64bn next year.
But here's the rub. That's based on the difference between the April and October cap prices. £1900 to £3550. The expectations now are that to reflect market gas prices, the cap rises to £5000 by April and possibly £7000 by this time next year. If the latter is correct, Labour's plan of holding the cap at £1900 would cost something like £200bn for 2023. And that's before support for business.
The scale of this dwarfs the GFC or even, potentially COVID. And I'm hearing nothing from Govt that suggests they are going to be as radical as the Labour plans. If they have a much smaller relief package, as you say, the economy will grind to a halt because even previously comfortable people will have to tighten their belts and massively cut other spending.
Here's how hard it's going to hit even the comfortably off.
Someone in a large semi with 2-3 kids, using 4000kWh of electric and 20,000kWh of gas a year (both a good bit above average) was paying £1600/year last winter. From October, they'll be paying £5000. By January, that'll be up to £6-7,000 and if the predictions of this time next year are right, it'll be £10,000.
That's a lot of spare cash to find even for someone who is comfortably off. It means a lot of other economies which hit the rest of the economy. Less going out. No holiday. No new car etc, etc.
In fairness to Zahawi today, he did quite rightly say that the No1 priority has to be helping out those at the very bottom end who have nothing to fall back on, and who are already living with belts tightened to snapping point. They must come first. But the political reality is that it's not only people at the bottom who will struggle. Even someone on £50-60k a year will struggle to fid the money for where next year's bills are going. And the political reality means that they will have to be helped too if the Tories have any chance of surviving this. So I'm expecting a huge wave of Govt support announced in a couple of weeks. Anything less and the next 3-12 months will be nightmarish.
We are in for a rough ride, possibly explains the Massive German visit to Canada, they are planning the long term, we never look beyond our Nose end!. I wonder if any body is 'Courting' Venezuelathe country with the worlds largest Oil and Gas reserves which was totally sidelined by the Shenanigans of successive US Governments.
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The “knock -on” effect is going to be huge. Old folk wont put their heating on in winter & will get ill as will those with a history of depression which has strong links to debt. Our nhs is already on its arse & cant cope with extra numbers & then theres the threat of further covid.
I cant believe a govt can be so incompetent. All they want to do is point the finger of blame on covid or russia. Do something & quick ffs
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The “knock -on” effect is going to be huge. Old folk wont put their heating on in winter & will get ill as will those with a history of depression which has strong links to debt. Our nhs is already on its arse & cant cope with extra numbers & then theres the threat of further covid.
I cant believe a govt can be so incompetent. All they want to do is point the finger of blame on covid or russia. Do something & quick ffs
I don't think they are even going to be able to heat schools and hospitals.
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News today that the Russians are flaring off huge quantities of gas at a site near Finland. It's very difficult to turn a gas well off, their storage is full, so they are just burning it off.
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The very first OP on this thread mentions that our Gas production has doubled but it is being sold on the open market. What's the feasibility of the Government stepping in and Prohibiting Gas from being exported? Can we do that? If we do that and get Canada exporting and Venezuela back to producing and exporting we solve our short term issues and can then do something about the longer term,what do other posters think?
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The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.
At the time of writing no one from Government was available to be interviewed on TV, the Chancellor made a general media comment about every household getting £400, as I said in my post, perhaps you didn’t bother to read the whole post!
Filo, what you really mean is that the Treasury issued a statement and put Zahawis name at the bottom of it. Have any of this lot of ministers put a shift in since Johnson got the boot? Where are Pritstick Raabid Smog Zahawi and co? Working from home? At least we know Mistrust is still around not that she is doing the job she is actually paid to do by us, the Taxpayer
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The very first OP on this thread mentions that our Gas production has doubled but it is being sold on the open market. What's the feasibility of the Government stepping in and Prohibiting Gas from being exported? Can we do that? If we do that and get Canada exporting and Venezuela back to producing and exporting we solve our short term issues and can then do something about the longer term,what do other posters think?
Not a route we should go down, that insular attitude is a bad move in the long term.
What surprises me is we haven't yet done things that other countries have. Eg turn street lights off, stop lighting buildings up etc.
Lots of big energy uses are used to load management at peak demand times (I used to sit in the dark in the office etc) so I'm sure there will be more of that.
Either way it's gonna cost many of us a lot of money and that clearly feeds in to the rest of the economy. It may though lead to less working from home particularly over winter.
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The very first OP on this thread mentions that our Gas production has doubled but it is being sold on the open market. What's the feasibility of the Government stepping in and Prohibiting Gas from being exported? Can we do that? If we do that and get Canada exporting and Venezuela back to producing and exporting we solve our short term issues and can then do something about the longer term,what do other posters think?
Not a route we should go down, that insular attitude is a bad move in the long term.
What surprises me is we haven't yet done things that other countries have. Eg turn street lights off, stop lighting buildings up etc.
Lots of big energy uses are used to load management at peak demand times (I used to sit in the dark in the office etc) so I'm sure there will be more of that.
Either way it's gonna cost many of us a lot of money and that clearly feeds in to the rest of the economy. It may though lead to less working from home particularly over winter.
IT is pure complacency from a government that is literally on holiday. They've known this was coming since last autumn when the fertiliser plants had to be bailed out due to the soaring price of gas.
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I get up in a morning and there is already 1£ on the smart meter from midnight, bar turning everything off at the socket and do without my security cameras and internet, I’m not sure where I can use less energy
There's more than 70p of that on standing charges - why can't they be scrapped? That's over £250 a year for starters.
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I get up in a morning and there is already 1£ on the smart meter from midnight, bar turning everything off at the socket and do without my security cameras and internet, I’m not sure where I can use less energy
There's more than 70p of that on standing charges - why can't they be scrapped? That's over £250 a year for starters.
A large part of that standing charge is to pay for the cost of the collapse of so many energy suppliers last year, if you can believe that!
This has nothing to do with the consumer, we are bailing out fly by night businesses.
the cost of infrastructure hasn't increased much it's purely the commodity price.
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There's a few things we can do uch as switch off and drain the Hot tub a massive 25% on your Domestic leccy Billif youotone! Turn off and unplug Televisions etc they use a lot on standby.dont boil a full kettle if there is only one or two of you. Etc
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Who would have thought energy would become a luxury so fast?
Well it can't. The economy simply will not function without energy. We need very fast solutions.
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The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.
Did the Chancellor say "look, we've known this price hike has been coming for months, so now this has been confirmed I am happy to announce we will be freezing the cap as it stands/giving every household an additional £800 (etc) paid for a slower than necessary reduction in the cap in future years"
or similar.?
Did he f**k.
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This has been coming. This has been coming for years. I'm so angry. It has been obvious, these Kitsons want slinging out of office. Now.
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The chancellor has made comments on the energy prices this morning.
Perhaps you didn’t bother to look.
Just think, if the Tories hadn’t encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine then the gas prices wouldn't have been as high as they are.
Did the Chancellor say "look, we've known this price hike has been coming for months, so now this has been confirmed I am happy to announce we will be freezing the cap as it stands/giving every household an additional £800 (etc) paid for a slower than necessary reduction in the cap in future years"
or similar.?
Did he f**k.
No, of course he didn’t, but then again I never suggested anything of the sort.
There have been a lot of assumptions on here of late without knowing what is going to happen.
I agree that much needs to be done though.
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I have said for years there is a looming energy problem. BST bless him has told me no, you are getting your knickers in a twist for nothing. Well look now. Now we are at the face of it.
It's cold and hard.
We need affordable energy. Where is it coming from?
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RD.
I'm happy to take a kicking when I've got things wrong, but you're mixing up different discussions here.
Our previous debates have been about the ability to produce enough energy globally in the long term as we transition away from fossil fuels.
Fundamentally, this has nothing to do with that issue. It's about an overheated (sic) world economy driving demand up at the same time that Putin is deliberately throttling supply.
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Mate, it's about commodities. Just like it was in the 70s.
Putin is throttling the supply of gas. Mostly that is it.
We should not rely on the likes of Putin and OPEC for our energy.
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You're talking about political priorities.
I agree with you that we've (the whole of Europe) f**ked up massively in hitching our wagon to gas when Putin can rig the market.
No arguments there.
My point previously had been that we have the technical capability to get off fossil fuels if we want to. They are two different issues.
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I have said for years there is a looming energy problem. BST bless him has told me no, you are getting your knickers in a twist for nothing. Well look now. Now we are at the face of it.
It's cold and hard.
We need affordable energy. Where is it coming from?
There's millions upon millions of tonnes of it underground in your City and my town .
Aye ....... If only .
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You're talking about political priorities.
I agree with you that we've (the whole of Europe) f**ked up massively in hitching our wagon to gas when Putin can rig the market.
No arguments there.
My point previously had been that we have the technical capability to get off fossil fuels if we want to. They are two different issues.
We are as one then. I just hope we do have those technical capabilities.
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Well there's one thing for sure. This crisis will force the pace of de-gasification.
We should have been subsidising renewal capability for the past decade. But we haven't. So I've wanted to have solar panels on my roof, but the economic case for me didn't remotely add up.
If grid leccy is going north of 50p/kWh because of gas prices, that totally changes the economics. I reckon a solar panel and battery system would pay for itself in 6-8 years at that price.
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You're talking about political priorities.
I agree with you that we've (the whole of Europe) f**ked up massively in hitching our wagon to gas when Putin can rig the market.
No arguments there.
My point previously had been that we have the technical capability to get off fossil fuels if we want to. They are two different issues.
Switzerland haven't been hit as bad. Most of their energy comes from solar, nuclear, etc.
Imagine if we'd been more forward thinking years ago...
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You're talking about political priorities.
I agree with you that we've (the whole of Europe) f**ked up massively in hitching our wagon to gas when Putin can rig the market.
No arguments there.
My point previously had been that we have the technical capability to get off fossil fuels if we want to. They are two different issues.
Switzerland haven't been hit as bad. Most of their energy comes from solar, nuclear, etc.
Imagine if we'd been more forward thinking years ago...
I agree that we e been stupid in relying so heavily on a fuel whose price can be weaponised by an enemy. But Switzerland is a special case. 60% of their electricity is produced by hydro plants in the Alps, with water falling up to 2km vertical drop before it hits the turbines.
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Switzerland does demonstrate the possibility of green energy though.
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You're talking about political priorities.
I agree with you that we've (the whole of Europe) f**ked up massively in hitching our wagon to gas when Putin can rig the market.
No arguments there.
My point previously had been that we have the technical capability to get off fossil fuels if we want to. They are two different issues.
Switzerland haven't been hit as bad. Most of their energy comes from solar, nuclear, etc.
Imagine if we'd been more forward thinking years ago...
I agree that we e been stupid in relying so heavily on a fuel whose price can be weaponised by an enemy. But Switzerland is a special case. 60% of their electricity is produced by hydro plants in the Alps, with water falling up to 2km vertical drop before it hits the turbines.
And we are an island with a tidal range of around 7-10m on one of the strongest tides in the world (second to Canada) that the government itself has estimated has the capability to deliver at least 20% of our electricity needs.
To date it has blocked every tidal project and current delivers exactly 0%.
https://www.renewableuk.com/page/WaveTidalEnergy
https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/the-mystery-of-the-uks-untapped-tidal-power
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Switzerland does demonstrate the possibility of green energy though.
Agreed
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You're talking about political priorities.
I agree with you that we've (the whole of Europe) f**ked up massively in hitching our wagon to gas when Putin can rig the market.
No arguments there.
My point previously had been that we have the technical capability to get off fossil fuels if we want to. They are two different issues.
Switzerland haven't been hit as bad. Most of their energy comes from solar, nuclear, etc.
Imagine if we'd been more forward thinking years ago...
I agree that we e been stupid in relying so heavily on a fuel whose price can be weaponised by an enemy. But Switzerland is a special case. 60% of their electricity is produced by hydro plants in the Alps, with water falling up to 2km vertical drop before it hits the turbines.
And we are an island with a tidal range of around 7-10m on one of the strongest tides in the world (second to Canada) that the government itself has estimated has the capability to deliver at least 20% of our electricity needs.
To date it has blocked every tidal project and current delivers exactly 0%.
https://www.renewableuk.com/page/WaveTidalEnergy
https://www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/the-mystery-of-the-uks-untapped-tidal-power
Agreed.
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I'm cutting back and cutting back.
It's getting to the point where we will have to hand our cats to the RSPCA. It is heartbreaking.
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That is heartbreaking.
Martin Lewis hit the nail on the head this morning.
He said that by refusing to set out mitigating measures before now, the Govt was imposing massive psychological stress on people.
People now know what bills they are facing. But they have heard nothing from Govt about what protection they will get. What peoe HAVE heard is Signal and Truss talking about VAT and Green Levy cuts, which will shave a few percent off bills that have gone up by almost 2 fold. This is unconscionable by the Govt. They KNOW that they are going to be subsidising the bills one way or another. But they are stringing people out before announcing it.
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They want us on our knees. They couldn't give a f**k about us.
Problem,reaction,solution.
Let's see what the solution is in a year or so
Ordo Ab Chao
.
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Nudga mate. You have a vote. If you don't use it, THEN they don't care about you.
Meanwhile, this is a very, very annoyed man.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1563118241483931654
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Kids raiding a McDonalds in Nottingham the other day. It's just a start, there will be a crime wave.
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Voting is an illusion to make the little people believe they have a voice.
Politics is theatre.
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Try life under Putin Nudge.
Life in Russia is much harder than here
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Well there's one thing for sure. This crisis will force the pace of de-gasification.
We should have been subsidising renewal capability for the past decade. But we haven't. So I've wanted to have solar panels on my roof, but the economic case for me didn't remotely add up.
If grid leccy is going north of 50p/kWh because of gas prices, that totally changes the economics. I reckon a solar panel and battery system would pay for itself in 6-8 years at that price.
Spot on this. I've wanted solar panels for some time too but being an accountant it doesn't (didn't) add up. Still unsure it does given electric won't be allowed that high but if it is.....
Very short sighted not to encourage more renewables.
Thought this was interesting and local...
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/politics/council-100-miles-away-to-take-control-of-massive-solar-farm-in-doncaster-3786971
I'm sure I read of a plan to consider one near edenthorpe too (if they can find land they aren't planning to build houses on).
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People don't know what's coming.
Until the bills land, they will not know.
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Try life under Putin Nudge.
Life in Russia is much harder than here
WTF!?
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Try life under Putin Nudge.
Life in Russia is much harder than here
WTF!?
Seriously. Their life is shite.
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Try life under Putin Nudge.
Life in Russia is much harder than here
WTF!?
Seriously. Their life is shite.
Yeah I know, it's been shite for years, I just don't get why you threw that in.
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Try life under Putin Nudge.
Life in Russia is much harder than here
WTF!?
Seriously. Their life is shite.
Yeah I know, it's been shite for years, I just don't get why you threw that in.
Well, the threat is we will capitulate and then one by one democratic societies will fall to authoritarian bas**rds. It's the thin end of the wedge.
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Mate, it's about commodities. Just like it was in the 70s.
Putin is throttling the supply of gas. Mostly that is it.
We should not rely on the likes of Putin and OPEC for our energy.
Putin maybe throttling supply causing prices to rise, but don’t forget that April’s rise in the price cap was decided last October, a few months before he invaded Ukraine, this has been coming and predicted by the experts long before the invasion, and the Government did just as they are doing now, sat on their hands!
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Kids raiding a McDonalds in Nottingham the other day. It's just a start, there will be a crime wave.
Posters who think that we live in a Police State may be in for a huge shock this winter, the Police can barely cope now, if there is any mass civil disorder it will break 'The Thin BlueLine' their is also an exodus of highly skilled and experienced officers resigning as the Goverment has achieved it's objective of stopping folks seeing a Career in the Police as a 'Job for life' the Pension was always the big anchor that kept officers in the Policd, but they now pay 14.5% of their salary into. Pension fund which is now no better than most others.
You have every Council in The Country offering nice well paid easy to do (For a person with 6/7 years Policing experience under their belt)
You also have a large tranch of new recruits in the University scheme who are not getting Public order training and when they qualify after
3 years will move on to pastures new when they hit 'The Brick wall'
Get ready!
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Mate, it's about commodities. Just like it was in the 70s.
Putin is throttling the supply of gas. Mostly that is it.
We should not rely on the likes of Putin and OPEC for our energy.
Putin maybe throttling supply causing prices to rise, but don’t forget that April’s rise in the price cap was decided last October, a few months before he invaded Ukraine, this has been coming and predicted by the experts long before the invasion, and the Government did just as they are doing now, sat on their hands!
There's a part of the price rise that's de to a rebound in the global economy, catching up after COVID. That was inevitable. But Putin's throttling of the supply to Europe is a far bigger effect.
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I'm concerned about the inevitable call from school leaders to close schools for 1/2 days a week through winter due to not being able to afford to heat schools. They'll probably put forward the argument that online remote learning is now a thing and this wouldn't impact on kids education by keeping them off school for a few days.
Which obviously would be b*llocks.
My kids school already made a shitload from Government funding for opting to close school for weeks at a time for onsite Covid testing. Wonder where that's gone?
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Somebody wants flaying alive over this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/D_Shariatmadari/status/1563496020344176640
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Personally I favour Labour/Starmer's solution to this re freezing the price cap with one alteration.
I'd suggest the price cap should be fixed at say 20% higher than April with the Government supporting lower income households to meet this rise. A few reasons: -
- There's no guarantee energy prices will not remain high and the Government can't sustainably fund freezing the cap indefinitely so some rise should be put through otherwise you're just potentially delaying the economic shock till later
- Reduces cost to the state and consumers can choose whether to bear the extra cost and/or cut energy usage - by 1/6th to retain current payment levels
- Another way of reducing prices is to cut demand where those who can afford to are able to (yes I know they're global prices but the UK is a big economy) a price cap freeze wouldn't incentivise lower demand
With prices likely to increase further more money needs to be raised. I would temporarily raise the highest rate of tax now so higher earners net don't benefit/lose on average from the price freeze.
I disagree with the notion that any Government support must be fully funded. The scale of the economic crisis is too big for this. Government borrowing will have to rise to a degree - as it did with the Covid furlough scheme.
Also Government support is needed for business' who can provide evidence that their energy bills are a significant % of their pre inflation profits. Again funded by a temporary increase in Corporation Tax rates.
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Scrap VAT on energy, Scrap the Green Levy and abolish standing charges
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Scrap VAT on energy, Scrap the Green Levy and abolish standing charges
Sensible in the short term. There is a war to be won.
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Mate, it's about commodities. Just like it was in the 70s.
Putin is throttling the supply of gas. Mostly that is it.
We should not rely on the likes of Putin and OPEC for our energy.
Putin maybe throttling supply causing prices to rise, but don’t forget that April’s rise in the price cap was decided last October, a few months before he invaded Ukraine, this has been coming and predicted by the experts long before the invasion, and the Government did just as they are doing now, sat on their hands!
Keep in mind, Putin started turning off the gas taps last autumn well before the invasion. You may remember the government bailing out fertiliser plants because of the soaring price of gas.
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A small amount can be saved for those that pay by credit card, direct debit will save maybe a quid a week.
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Scrap VAT on energy, Scrap the Green Levy and abolish standing charges
Barely scratched the surface Filo. It needs 10 times that.
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Scrap VAT on energy, Scrap the Green Levy and abolish standing charges
Barely scratched the surface Filo. It needs 10 times that.
Every bit helps.
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Was the price cap decided last October?
It seems much further ahead than we are lead to believe. Do you have a link?
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Mate, it's about commodities. Just like it was in the 70s.
Putin is throttling the supply of gas. Mostly that is it.
We should not rely on the likes of Putin and OPEC for our energy.
Putin maybe throttling supply causing prices to rise, but don’t forget that April’s rise in the price cap was decided last October, a few months before he invaded Ukraine, this has been coming and predicted by the experts long before the invasion, and the Government did just as they are doing now, sat on their hands!
Keep in mind, Putin started turning off the gas taps last autumn well before the invasion. You may remember the government bailing out fertiliser plants because of the soaring price of gas.
Genuine question. Is there any evidence that Putin was throttling supply last year? I don't recall that but I might have missed it.
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Mate, it's about commodities. Just like it was in the 70s.
Putin is throttling the supply of gas. Mostly that is it.
We should not rely on the likes of Putin and OPEC for our energy.
Putin maybe throttling supply causing prices to rise, but don’t forget that April’s rise in the price cap was decided last October, a few months before he invaded Ukraine, this has been coming and predicted by the experts long before the invasion, and the Government did just as they are doing now, sat on their hands!
Keep in mind, Putin started turning off the gas taps last autumn well before the invasion. You may remember the government bailing out fertiliser plants because of the soaring price of gas.
Genuine question. Is there any evidence that Putin was throttling supply last year? I don't recall that but I might have missed it.
Without checking back, yes that was happening.
Do you remember the government having to bail out the two UK fertiliser and Co2 plants? This was because of rising gas prices and I remember it was blamed on Putin not renewing gas contracts. He was putting pressure on Germany regarding Nordstream 2. Remember?
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IT is important to understand this.
The inflation of the 70s was in large part the restriction of hydrocarbons by the Arabs angry at the west support of Israel in the war.
Now it is Putin restricting gas supplies.
Economists spout so much shite. Energy is key.
I could go on. Inflation in the 80s was tamed as Thatcher benefited from the exploitation of North Sea oil.
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Can't believe people are taken in by this war excuse for everything these days. The war is being used as a convenient excuse to try and cover up years of Tory / Labour failures in office.
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Can't believe people are taken in by this war excuse for everything these days. The war is being used as a convenient excuse to try and cover up years of Tory / Labour failures in office.
It would be good to list them so we are on the same page panda
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The war is being used to cover up what was done by a Labour Govt that hadn't been in power for 12 years?
Run it by me how that works.
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The war is being used to cover up what was done by a Labour Govt that hadn't been in power for 12 years?
Run it by me how that works.
You didn't reject Thatcherism Billy , nothing was returned to public ownership and you didn't repeal one anti trade union law .
Own it .
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Tyke
Want to make a list for me of all the society-changing laws that the Left of the Labour party has passed this last 50 years?
In your own time...
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Between 1997 and 2010 you also managed to lose 5m votes including a whole country ( Scotland ) I might add .
Whether you or I like it or not the Tories when in power use that time to shape the country for better or worse normally for the worse but none the less .
The so called winning hand in winning elections for Labour consists of hanging their hat on Tory policies with the promise to be better at it , that's about the stretch of the difference between them in my opinion .
The current leader needs to wake up and smell the coffee and forget the dusting down of the Brit Pop album collection and " Things Can Only Get Better " .
He's in the eye of a perfect storm and but his liberalism blinds him .
He might also want to contemplate how he inherited a £13m surplus in the Labour Party bank account and managed to turn that in to £5m deficit .
Donors will have to fill the holes , you can guess they will want something for that of course .
Your roadmap to power whilst previously successful has also hamstrung you today .
Just how much longer Keith sits on the fence and misses the moment with 70% of the country baying for Tory blood is open to debate .
When letting the Tories fall their sword actually becomes we've nothing much of substance to solve the problems we currently face either becomes reality in the electorates eyes is anyone's guess .
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The war is being used to cover up what was done by a Labour Govt that hadn't been in power for 12 years?
Run it by me how that works.
The problems of this country haven't just been caused by the useless Tories. Useless Labour were in power before them and they still haven't addressed the key issues properly. Admittedly things have gotten ridiculous under 12 years of Tory rule but why the blinkers about the Labour party who were not far off being as useless and inadequate.
The NHS for example were still a pile of horse shit before the Tories took over. Just one example of something that has not been improved properly by either party.
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Panda.
Can you back up that claim that the NHS was a pile of horse shit in 2010? Compared, say, to what it was like in 1997 when Labour came to power.
Give us some evidence.
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Between 1997 and 2010 you also managed to lose 5m votes including a whole country ( Scotland ) I might add .
Whether you or I like it or not the Tories when in power use that time to shape the country for better or worse normally for the worse but none the less .
The so called winning hand in winning elections for Labour consists of hanging their hat on Tory policies with the promise to be better at it , that's about the stretch of the difference between them in my opinion .
The current leader needs to wake up and smell the coffee and forget the dusting down of the Brit Pop album collection and " Things Can Only Get Better " .
He's in the eye of a perfect storm and but his liberalism blinds him .
He might also want to contemplate how he inherited a £13m surplus in the Labour Party bank account and managed to turn that in to £5m deficit .
Donors will have to fill the holes , you can guess they will want something for that of course .
Your roadmap to power whilst previously successful has also hamstrung you today .
Just how much longer Keith sits on the fence and misses the moment with 70% of the country baying for Tory blood is open to debate .
When letting the Tories fall their sword actually becomes we've nothing much of substance to solve the problems we currently face either becomes reality in the electorates eyes is anyone's guess .
You've lost me. Was there an example of a law that the Left has passed in there?
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Remember that both the candidates to be PM in 10 days have said they will block solar farm developments, because they besmirch the Great British Landscape.
This is how shockingly solar farms have taken over.
https://mobile.twitter.com/_dmoser/status/1563177883803082752
I wonder why the candidates pitching themselves at the golf club bores don't get angry about...golf courses?
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Meanwhile, for those of you who insist they are all the same.
https://mobile.twitter.com/NicDakin55/status/1563540962386661379
This, in one graph, sums up these Kitsons who have ruled for the past 12 years.
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The war is being used to cover up what was done by a Labour Govt that hadn't been in power for 12 years?
Run it by me how that works.
The problems of this country haven't just been caused by the useless Tories. Useless Labour were in power before them and they still haven't addressed the key issues properly. Admittedly things have gotten ridiculous under 12 years of Tory rule but why the blinkers about the Labour party who were not far off being as useless and inadequate.
The NHS for example were still a pile of horse shit before the Tories took over. Just one example of something that has not been improved properly by either party.
When Labour left office in 2010, public satisfaction with the NHS was at it highest ever. The Blair/Brown government increased health spending each year more than any any government since Heath and cut waiting times from 18 months to 18 weeks:
https://www.health.org.uk/publications/long-reads/returning-nhs-waiting-times-to-18-weeks
https://fullfact.org/health/satisfaction-nhs-peaked-2010/
Balir and Brown did a lot of things wrong (some of them within the NHS) but one of their greatest achievements was turning it from an under-funded disaster left by Thatcher/Major into a well-respected functioning health service.
Credit for Cameron/May/Johnson for returning it back to an under-funded, under-staffed disaster.
And their energy costs are going to go up to btw. I haven't noticed any annoucements for new money to cover these - so its going to be even more undr-funded.
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Between 1997 and 2010 you also managed to lose 5m votes including a whole country ( Scotland ) I might add .
Whether you or I like it or not the Tories when in power use that time to shape the country for better or worse normally for the worse but none the less .
The so called winning hand in winning elections for Labour consists of hanging their hat on Tory policies with the promise to be better at it , that's about the stretch of the difference between them in my opinion .
The current leader needs to wake up and smell the coffee and forget the dusting down of the Brit Pop album collection and " Things Can Only Get Better " .
He's in the eye of a perfect storm and but his liberalism blinds him .
He might also want to contemplate how he inherited a £13m surplus in the Labour Party bank account and managed to turn that in to £5m deficit .
Donors will have to fill the holes , you can guess they will want something for that of course .
Your roadmap to power whilst previously successful has also hamstrung you today .
Just how much longer Keith sits on the fence and misses the moment with 70% of the country baying for Tory blood is open to debate .
When letting the Tories fall their sword actually becomes we've nothing much of substance to solve the problems we currently face either becomes reality in the electorates eyes is anyone's guess .
You've lost me. Was there an example of a law that the Left has passed in there?
There isn't one as well you know Billy but clearly your thinking goes along the lines of if you can't get in to power then you aren't worth a shyte .
However what the left do is contribute with ideas which creates policy dependent of course whether they are listened to .
One such policy would be The National Minimum Wage which was introduced by Blair in 1997 .
It actually took 88 years to come to fruition with its origins in the Trade Union movement .
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We don't seem to be able to look beyond our noses at this problem!
The First thing the New PM needs to do is getover to Venezuela on a state visit with some BPand Shell Executives in tow and do all they can to make the pease and invest the ill gotten gains into the Oil production capacity of that country!, the Germans have already got, Siemens over there offering to re vamp the Electrical power network so we won't be alone, might mean upsetting Nanny Biden and a few Oil Companies such as Resol and Connoco but hey ho business is business. And I can think of 300 Billion reasons why we should make it happen, we won't see anything short term but we won't be wringing our hands this time next year!.
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Tyke. I'm sure we're not actually that far apart. I thought Blair was way too far right and I argued so in Labour party meetings at the time when I was still a member.
But I would never, ever have said "Huh, we might as well have the Tories then." I've never, ever understood that attitude and I never will.
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Tyke. I'm sure we're not actually that far apart. I thought Blair was way too far right and I argued so in Labour party meetings at the time when I was still a member.
But I would never, ever have said "Huh, we might as well have the Tories then." I've never, ever understood that attitude and I never will.
The problem is Billy whilst the New Labour thing may well have worked with the electorate in 1997 and the so called third way what you have to consider is the UK economy wasn't actually in too bad a place .
Fast forward to today and the third way isn't going to cut the ice .
It wouldn't have cut the ice in 1945 with an equally centre leader in Atlee but he had the political nose to be brave , radical with the strength of conviction to improve the lives of the country with a huge dose of socialism .
Socialism per se for ever and a day will fail but there are times in our history when it's needed not only to save its people but actually save capitalism from itself too .
We are at that juncture right now as we were in 1945 .
When a huge percentage of the people cannot afford the rent never mind own a home .
When a huge percentage of the people can't afford to shop at supermarkets to feed themselves and rely on foodbanks despite the majority in work .
When a huge number of people cannot afford to turn a light on or the central heating in their home .
When an industry makes millions of pounds in profits and hasn't invested in one single new reservoir since it was privatised in 1989 and then tells its customers there is a water shortage and they must cut back .
Your not a million miles from a failed state status .
There's no way that any third way will solve this catastrophe .
The Tories have lost the argument on the economy , it's failed it's people .
There is only one solution in such times the same as there was in 1945 .
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I don't understand why many people on minimum wage don't just go on benefits? From a economics point of view surely they'd be better off in today's climate?
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Sorry, but what’s what has happened with past governments got to do with what the current lot could/should do right now with the immediate crisis?
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Sorry, but what’s what has happened with past governments got to do with what the current lot could/should do right now with the immediate crisis?
Because both the two major party's currently are addicted to the markets fixing this debacle .
The Tories will never leave it and neither would they have created the NHS or a welfare state in 1945 or provided millions of its citizens with a place to work or an affordable house to live in .
For all its faults the Labour Party has a solid record on fixing catastrophes with the last one in 2008 .
Socialism not the markets solved it and something that passes the current leader by .
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it .
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People need help with fuel bills now.. right now, not after a GE which is very unlikely in the near future. So political history is irrelevant. It’s what they do now, next week (or realistically with this laissez-faire lot, in a few weeks time) that really matters.
Freeze the cap as it is now, repay the difference by reducing it slower than necessary in the future.
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Germany's gas storage facilities filling quicker than expected.
German gas reserves now at 85% (the target for 1st October) meaning that it's unlikely the country will face shortages this winter. With the expected move to import more LNG through France it appears they will no longer need to import from Russia.
What is it we were doing again?
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/germanys-gas-storage-facilities-filling-up-faster-than-planned-econ-minister-2022-08-28/
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It is a bit of a worry to see some are buying the Truss line that curbing "green levies" is a useful contribution.
The raft of measures under that heading come to about £11 per household, per quarter.
This is money that goes towards insulation measures for the poorest.
To set the scale of change, Cornwall Insight are forecasting a price rise to £6600 per annum average increase from April 2023.
Truss is an idiot, do not be deceived by her soft sell to the golf club set.
This is a major economic challenge, fumbling down the back of the sofa for loose change will not make a blind bit of difference.
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I really dont like Sunak & his tax fiddling antics but the alternative is scary. Truss is an idiot.
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Sunak had the audacity to come out and say that he was against lockdowns when at the time he did f**k all about it. He doesn't deserve to breathe the same oxygen as the rest of us never mind become PM.
He also announced 5p off fuel duty as though he was the messiah. Two weeks later that 5p was wiped out due to further fuel price rises. Four weeks later fuel prices were like 20 p more than when he knocked the 5p off.
Total and utter ballsack.
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In 2021
Germany got 55% of its gas from Russia
France got 17% of its gas from Russia
UK got 4% of its gas from Russia
In 2022 energy prices have risen
23% in Germany
4% in France
213% in the UK
what role is Russia and the war in Ukraine playing in the rise of energy in the UK again?
https://twitter.com/KimThor93328499/status/1564651125940387840
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Because German and French Govts are subsidising the price.
We are behind the curve because of the paralysis of our Govt, but we will (I assume,) do something similar (or alternatively, pour money into the accounts of energy consumers) starting in a couple of weeks.
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Maybe because there’s more demand on the rest of the supplies not coming from Russia.?
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Bang on IDM.
The source of the gas is absolutely irrelevant. The fact that Russia has throttled supply has forced up the price of gas all over the world markets.
We import 50% of our gas from Norway. They aren't going to sell it to us for £1 when Germany is prepared to pay £4.
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So its not the fact that there is a war between Ukraine and Russia that has seen 213% price rises in the UK. It's the profiteering of the energy production companies and the inaction/policy of the UK government.
Gotcha.
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BST,
Do you have a reference for your belief that 50% of UK gas comes from Norway?
My info is that it is nearer to 33%, subject to existing contracts.
The situation may have changed of course, hence my question.
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So its not the fact that there is a war between Ukraine and Russia that has seen 213% price rises in the UK. It's the profiteering of the energy production companies and the inaction/policy of the UK government.
Gotcha.
Albeit as a consequence of the war.
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It does not matter if the gas is coming from Iceland Russia or catmando people are still been fleeced with the price and cannot afford to hear their homes
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So its not the fact that there is a war between Ukraine and Russia that has seen 213% price rises in the UK. It's the profiteering of the energy production companies and the inaction/policy of the UK government.
Gotcha.
Yes I agree that the production companies are profiteering. No question
The question is, what can you do about it if you're dependent on imports?
German citizens will still end up paying for this in the long term. Because their country will be poorer by the amount they've had to pay extra for the gas. The fact that the Govt is subsidising the price consumers pay means that consumers are isolated from the cost NOW. But they'll have a poorer future because Govt spending will have to be lower, or taxes higher. There's no getting away from that.
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BST,
Do you have a reference for your belief that 50% of UK gas comes from Norway?
My info is that it is nearer to 33%, subject to existing contracts.
The situation may have changed of course, hence my question.
Sorry Albie, my mistake. We import 50% of our gas. 77% of that, last year, came from Norway (both ONS figures https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/articles/trendsinukimportsandexportsoffuels/2022-06-29#:~:text=Norway%20is%20typically%20the%20UK's,the%20United%20States%20and%20Russia.). So Norway produces 38.5% of our gas, not 50%. My mistake.
Doesn't change the basic point. 50% of our gas comes from foreign sources and we have zero option but to pay the global market rate for that.
The 50% that's home produced could have its price controlled by the UK Govt. Taxing excess profits of North Sea producers, done properly, has precisely the same effect.
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Consultation released by the Department of Levelling Up today on limiting the rise in Service Charge social landlords can pass on to tenants. Recommendations to consider values of 3%, 5% and 7%.
Social housing providers are not "protected" by the price cap as they are not residential supplies. The government has to consider support for the providers too in this scenario. Imagine the consequences of a housing association going bust.
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Consultation released by the Department of Levelling Up today on limiting the rise in Service Charge social landlords can pass on to tenants. Recommendations to consider values of 3%, 5% and 7%.
Social housing providers are not "protected" by the price cap as they are not residential supplies. The government has to consider support for the providers too in this scenario. Imagine the consequences of a housing association going bust.
Jesus, that is a massive problem for Housing Associations.
Duncan Weldon said in that podcast I posted in the Sunak or Truss thread that neither of them has said anything in their campaigns that comes remotely close to the scale of intervention required.
I've been saying for weeks, I desperately hope there are some very bright people at the Treasury figuring out how we get money to people and organisations that are going under otherwise. What they need to do, next Tuesday, is lock Truss in a room, give here the emergency measures they've (hopefully) been sorting out, and tell her if she doesn't sign them, she won't have a country to rule by Xmas.
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I recall Balby Bridge Estate, Coal House, the Police Hq and the courts all were fed by one heating facility that's about 900 Flats doesn't bode well if it's still like that nowadays.
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Bit of abetted news a wind farm system came on the Grid today which will provide Electricity sufficient to power 1 million homes, it 15 miles off Grimsby ,one of many being developed.
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The Hornsea project, 75 miles off the East Coast has just gone online with its phase2. It’s the largest offshore wind farm in the western world. Hornsea 3 and 4 when complete will bring the total output of the Hornsea farm to 6 gW.
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We are a windy nation surrounded by tidal waters.. this should have been started decades ago. I remember seeing wave power generation being covered on Tomorrows World in the late 70s or early 80s.. 40 bloody years ago..
But we still have NIMBYs today opposing solar farms.!
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We are a windy nation surrounded by tidal waters.. this should have been started decades ago. I remember seeing wave power generation being covered on Tomorrows World in the late 70s or early 80s.. 40 bloody years ago..
But we still have NIMBYs today opposing solar farms.!
And an imminent new PM who is indulging them.
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Consultation released by the Department of Levelling Up today on limiting the rise in Service Charge social landlords can pass on to tenants. Recommendations to consider values of 3%, 5% and 7%.
Social housing providers are not "protected" by the price cap as they are not residential supplies. The government has to consider support for the providers too in this scenario. Imagine the consequences of a housing association going bust.
Jesus, that is a massive problem for Housing Associations.
Duncan Weldon said in that podcast I posted in the Sunak or Truss thread that neither of them has said anything in their campaigns that comes remotely close to the scale of intervention required.
I've been saying for weeks, I desperately hope there are some very bright people at the Treasury figuring out how we get money to people and organisations that are going under otherwise. What they need to do, next Tuesday, is lock Truss in a room, give here the emergency measures they've (hopefully) been sorting out, and tell her if she doesn't sign them, she won't have a country to rule by Xmas.
Apologies, I slightly misread the release from government. Its a price cap on rent rises. Essentially means the same thing though, that social landlords are going to be left holding the heat and power baby. Service charge for amenities is usually baked into rent unless separately heat metered in the case of a district heating scheme, for example.
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Apparently chairman of OBO? Energy just mooted idea that every house hold pays the same amount for their energy up to a certain point,say enough to heat a 2 bed house over that amount of usage and the price gets whacked up! That seems an excellent idea as it will encourage most folks to use what they need !
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It is called a "social tariff" Sproty.
Absolutely essential for the future, to prevent avoidable cold winter deaths.
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Letter in the FT which sums up the serious position of the UK economy;
https://www.ft.com/content/e2533cd5-1fda-42ed-9ad3-5dab845e4558
Lets hope that Truss/Sunak/Keith all read it, as none of them understand the nature or depth of the problem we face.
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Billy,
From the electric car thread, but better in here:
"I get all that but there are still likely to be high electricity costs for the next year or two at least. You aren't going to be able to wean us off gas as a major producer of electricity in the blink of an eye."
About 55% of leccy in the UK is NOT produced from gas, so that proportion is subject to price reduction pressures.
With new capacity from offshore wind renewables coming onstream at the current price of £37.35 mw under Contracts for Difference, once electricity is decoupled from wholesale gas the market will move quickly.
Gas demand is predicted to reduce by 7% or so this winter as a result of the wholesale increase.
Put those two factors together and the change away from gas will accelerate.
The big question is how the UK retains the value to users from that market move.
You come back to the issue of what is the primary aim of the producer of that energy, supplying domestic consumers at the lowest cost, or making the highest profit by sale on international markets?
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Apparently chairman of OBO? Energy just mooted idea that every house hold pays the same amount for their energy up to a certain point,say enough to heat a 2 bed house over that amount of usage and the price gets whacked up! That seems an excellent idea as it will encourage most folks to use what they need !
In France I think they have a sliding scale, so the more you use the more you pay. It seems very sensible.
Where as in the UK it's a huge standing charge you get whacked with whether you use any energy or not.
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Head of OVO saying there should be an Energy Fund to help suppliers borrow against to keep bills low. Is it not beyond reasonable thought that the energy companies could reduce the price people pay which would only affect their massive profits?
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I heard tell that our local fish n chip shop might be closing. Apparently they've been struggling to fix his prices for fish and potatoes. Taken with some huge energy bills, I was told they are looking at £50 a portion of fish n chips next year. Not doable. I shrugged it off and thought, the bloke telling must've got it wrong. It'll be £15 a portion I thought...
Then I heard chef, Tom Kerridge on the radio. His gastro pub in Marlow, Bucks has been paying £5,000 a month in energy, to run everything in the kitchens and what have you. His energy contract is coming up for renewal and he's been quoted.....
£35,000 a month to fix now. £35,000!!! at the a £100 posh dinner will have to be £600 or £700 quid! No business can absorb these sort of costs.
This is hyper inflation of an unimaginable sort. They reckon at least 70% of pubs will close. £30 a pint! No wonder.
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Sky News has been told that care homes are facing closure this winter with some being quoted between 200-400% more for their energy costs. We've spent today with @sheffcare who say they usually pay around £90,000 across their nine care homes, they've recently been quoted £1.16m.
Chief Executive @ClaireRintoul told @ashishskynews:
"It just doesn’t work, that is not just a realistic figure that we can afford. In the worst case scenario we close, that is the absolute worst case scenario.”
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsThompson/status/1565400085839728642
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I heard tell that our local fish n chip shop might be closing. Apparently they've been struggling to fix his prices for fish and potatoes. Taken with some huge energy bills, I was told they are looking at £50 a portion of fish n chips next year. Not doable. I shrugged it off and thought, the bloke telling must've got it wrong. It'll be £15 a portion I thought...
Then I heard chef, Tom Kerridge on the radio. His gastro pub in Marlow, Bucks has been paying £5,000 a month in energy, to run everything in the kitchens and what have you. His energy contract is coming up for renewal and he's been quoted.....
£35,000 a month to fix now. £35,000!!! at the a £100 posh dinner will have to be £600 or £700 quid! No business can absorb these sort of costs.
This is hyper inflation of an unimaginable sort. They reckon at least 70% of pubs will close. £30 a pint! No wonder.
Local pubs next.
I do wonder how football clubs will be hit with the rise in bills.
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Sky News has been told that care homes are facing closure this winter with some being quoted between 200-400% more for their energy costs. We've spent today with @sheffcare who say they usually pay around £90,000 across their nine care homes, they've recently been quoted £1.16m.
Chief Executive @ClaireRintoul told @ashishskynews:
"It just doesn’t work, that is not just a realistic figure that we can afford. In the worst case scenario we close, that is the absolute worst case scenario.”
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsThompson/status/1565400085839728642
There was a feature on terrestrial tv on Wednesday about this situation wilts.
It is frightening.
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Last Friday, Winter 22 electricity hit £800 MWh. Its retreated £200 since but that's still over 10x the price for the past, well, forever.
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Three days. Then we can finally get rid of this embarrassment.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiamThorpECHO/status/1565305304195252225
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Last Friday, Winter 22 electricity hit £800 MWh. Its retreated £200 since but that's still over 10x the price for the past, well, forever.
German energy prices 1 year in advance were at €1000 per MWh at the end of last week. They were down to €500 today. Still ball breakingly high but might be signs that there's a corner being turned?
Putin's essentially fighting economic war on Europe. He's banking on people suffering so much that they force their Govts to pressure Ukraine to give in.
But if European countries ride this out and wean themselves off Russian gas, the long term damage to Russia's economy will be catastrophic.
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Last Friday, Winter 22 electricity hit £800 MWh. Its retreated £200 since but that's still over 10x the price for the past, well, forever.
German energy prices 1 year in advance were at €1000 per MWh at the end of last week. They were down to €500 today. Still ball breakingly high but might be signs that there's a corner being turned?
Putin's essentially fighting economic war on Europe. He's banking on people suffering so much that they force their Govts to pressure Ukraine to give in.
But if European countries ride this out and wean themselves off Russian gas, the long term damage to Russia's economy will be catastrophic.
Ride this out ?
Is the answer just round the corner.
We have got ride of all our coal fired power stations and replaced them with some windmills, solar and Biomass for which is shipped in tankers across the Atlantic.
Also, some interconnections to France, Ireland and Belgium one of which has set on fire.
This has been coming for years and the Government (both) have done very little. Expect let China and France build a nuclear plant !!
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Given the cost to governments of supporting their populations through the next winter it would surely be far more cost effective to simply give Ukraine the tools they need to put Putin back in his box, preferably a small-man sized one and let the world return to some kind of normality.
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Three days. Then we can finally get rid of this embarrassment.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiamThorpECHO/status/1565305304195252225
The Prime Minister who’s last words in that role as he stepped away from the dispatch box were ‘Hasta la vista, baby’.
Role on the next two years when we can ‘run’ to the polling station & get rid of this lot.
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I was in a risk management meeting yesterday. Oil is on a generally downward curve (minor volatility notwithstanding) and this is seen as a good barometer for gas prices to follow. Pricing has opened up bearish today, although Norwegian flows are cut for maintenance and wind gen is low this morning but picking up this aft.
The feeling is that Putin will ramp up nordstream flows if the west put lots of government support packages in place. Let governments commit to huge sums on business and household support, then flood the market with cheap gas whilst government fund £6/therm contracts.
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Last Friday, Winter 22 electricity hit £800 MWh. Its retreated £200 since but that's still over 10x the price for the past, well, forever.
German energy prices 1 year in advance were at €1000 per MWh at the end of last week. They were down to €500 today. Still ball breakingly high but might be signs that there's a corner being turned?
Putin's essentially fighting economic war on Europe. He's banking on people suffering so much that they force their Govts to pressure Ukraine to give in.
But if European countries ride this out and wean themselves off Russian gas, the long term damage to Russia's economy will be catastrophic.
Will it though? Aren't the BRICS nations forming an economic alliance?
Also Gazprom made a record 2.5 trillion roubles ($41.75 bn) in net profit in the first half of 2022
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I suspect Putin is realising that he's overplayed his hand massively. Governments across Europe have f**ked up by tying themselves to Russian oil, but after Putin invaded Ukraine, there's been a smack in the face moment. There's been a realisation that he has to be faced down right here, right now. He's got to be put in his box and made to realise that he will suffer more than anyone after invading Ukraine. Governments are now prepared to take some serious financial pain NOW, by subsidising consumers to give themselves time to wean themselves of Putin's gas. Because the alternative is to play by his rules and strengthen him.
Putin thought the West was too soft to deal with a threat like this. So he declared economic war on us. It's a war we HAVE to win, however much it hurts countries' finances over the next couple of years.
If the European countries really do face him down and start moving seriously towards getting off the Russian gas, he'll be in very, very big trouble economically.
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Last Friday, Winter 22 electricity hit £800 MWh. Its retreated £200 since but that's still over 10x the price for the past, well, forever.
German energy prices 1 year in advance were at €1000 per MWh at the end of last week. They were down to €500 today. Still ball breakingly high but might be signs that there's a corner being turned?
Putin's essentially fighting economic war on Europe. He's banking on people suffering so much that they force their Govts to pressure Ukraine to give in.
But if European countries ride this out and wean themselves off Russian gas, the long term damage to Russia's economy will be catastrophic.
Will it though? Aren't the BRICS nations forming an economic alliance?
Also Gazprom made a record 2.5 trillion roubles ($41.75 bn) in net profit in the first half of 2022
Putin doesn't have the infrastructure in place to ship large amounts of gas to China and India, never mind Brazil. He had the richest market in the world on his doorstep, with infrastructure to supply it and he's chosen to blow that up.
Thing about Putin is that we've convinced ourselves for years that he's a strategic genius. What he actually is, like Hitler before him, is a jumped up minor thug who succeeded because no-one stood up to his threats. He's massively overplayed his hand now.
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I was in a risk management meeting yesterday. Oil is on a generally downward curve (minor volatility notwithstanding) and this is seen as a good barometer for gas prices to follow. Pricing has opened up bearish today, although Norwegian flows are cut for maintenance and wind gen is low this morning but picking up this aft.
The feeling is that Putin will ramp up nordstream flows if the west put lots of government support packages in place. Let governments commit to huge sums on business and household support, then flood the market with cheap gas whilst government fund £6/therm contracts.
Oil is falling on expectations of a recession. I wouldn't assume gas will follow suit as readily as usual, gas isn't as global as oil, the European market is somewhat sealed off. somehow I doubt Putin is ready to change tack. The winter is not yet here, he thinks Europe will capitulate as the cold weather starts to bite. He doesn't think westerners can take, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't test this theory.
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I was in a risk management meeting yesterday. Oil is on a generally downward curve (minor volatility notwithstanding) and this is seen as a good barometer for gas prices to follow. Pricing has opened up bearish today, although Norwegian flows are cut for maintenance and wind gen is low this morning but picking up this aft.
The feeling is that Putin will ramp up nordstream flows if the west put lots of government support packages in place. Let governments commit to huge sums on business and household support, then flood the market with cheap gas whilst government fund £6/therm contracts.
Oil is falling on expectations of a recession. I wouldn't assume gas will follow suit as readily as usual, gas isn't as global as oil, the European market is somewhat sealed off. somehow I doubt Putin is ready to change tack. The winter is not yet here, he thinks Europe will capitulate as the cold weather starts to bite. He doesn't think westerners can take, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't test this theory.
He obviously thinks the rest of Europe is like Siberia.
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RD
The issue of Putin waiting for the cold weather to bite only applies if consumers are not sufficiently well subsidised (either by price caps or transfers of money to them). If consumers are subsidised, the cold doesn't matter because people and companies will still be able to afford to pay. The maximum amount that Duncan Weldon was saying this would add to Govt debt to GDP ratio is 20%.
That's less than either the effect of the GFC or the effect of COVID. In WWII, by comparison, our debt to GDP ratio went up by 40% a year for 6 years. And our economy survived. After that, and before the insanity of Austerity, we had 65 years of continual growth in living standards.
Western Governments have to think of this as a genuine war. If they have the will to stomach the debt increase, it is relatively easy to ride this out, and face Putin down. If we don't have that will, that means capitulating over Ukraine and letting Putin have what he wants. That makes for a f**k sight more scary future than 20% on the debt would.
The truly mad Western policy would be for Governments to keep supporting Ukraine and not subsidise consumers. That gives Putin the option of keeping the price higher than people can afford and really letting people freeze. A winter of that would be the end of our societies. I'm working on the assumption that our Govts are not stupid enough to do that.
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One of them might well be stupid enough, BST.
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Europe can only subside so far, there is a limited quantity of gas and the threat of blackouts is real.
My feeling is this is a demonstration of hard power, it doesn't suit Putins agenda to allow gas into Europe. I think he needs to see genuine shortages. The challenge then is to prevent that and get by.
I completely agree that we should be on a wartime footing. We are at war in all but name.
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Russia has just announced Nordstream is staying off indefinitely.
Gas prices expected to jump again tomorrow and the risk of blackouts has become much more likely...
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Need to get fracking as of yesterday.
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Russia has just announced Nordstream is staying off indefinitly.
Gas prices expected to jump again tomorrow and the risk of blackouts has become much more likely...
That's probably Putin's last ace played. We just need to make sure we dig in and make sure his pips are the first to squeak.
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Bloomberg are running a story that says they expect 6 in 10 UK factories to go out of business with these levels of energy price.
Tom Kerridge was talking about 7 in 10 pubs going to the wall the other day.
Lizzie is still telling us recession is not inevitable and she is not talking about energy prices still. She's going for growth! Somehow...
And today the news has just got worse.
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The experts are telling us that the economic catastrophe coming in Winter will be the worst since World War 2. Factories, businesses, pubs, restaurants, cinemas, theatres, and football clubs, are all in danger of going to the wall. Not to mention poor people practically freezing or starving to death.
Yet some people are still saying that it's a price worth paying to support Ukraine in a war that can't be won, and will go on for years.
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Never happens. They predict all this in the fear driven sensationalist media but in reality it never happens. For Gods sake please don't go out panic buying candles and matches everyone!
Pubs and restaurants that serve crap food (and there are a lot) might go bust with some luck and deservedly so. Football clubs are always crying wolf over finances. Not seen any hit the wall due to Covid when they were all bleating about how they could fold. They'll be fine. Always are.
Cinemas are too expensive anyway so fine. They can go.
Meanwhile the Ukrainian first lady will continue to do Vogue appearances and live like a queen whilst the rest of the poorer Ukrainians fight and poor UK people suffer too in order to help finance it. Always those who are telling us how bad things are and what we must all do to help who are never affected by any of it.
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All part of the plan. Crash the economy, build back better in lockstep with other WEF infiltrated countries, digital currencies tied in with digital IDs, facial recognition and biometric tech to buy limited goods. Meat off the market replaced by bugs. Limited travel if you've gone over your travel quota.
Small and medium businesses are all.gone, Amazon etc have the game tied up.
Empty town centre shops and pubs turned into living quarters and smart cities.
Why do you think the elites have been raping the current system so much? Theyve been quickly taking out billions, probably already turned it into the new currency or more likely gold.
In five years we'll not be able to take a shit without permission.
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Nudge,
Does all that really fit in with Truss who is saying, don't be negative la la la economic growth, I am Maggie Thatcher reborn?
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Yeah because she'll play her part, she's just as bad an actor fat Boris
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Honestly Nudge, there is one reason why Truss won't achieve economic growth. We physically do not have enough gas to generate the energy to power growth.
Economists think everything is run by money. The truth is money is just a token and it mostly represents energy.
Without affordable energy we are sunk. As we are about to find out.
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All part of the plan. Crash the economy, build back better in lockstep with other WEF infiltrated countries, digital currencies tied in with digital IDs, facial recognition and biometric tech to buy limited goods. Meat off the market replaced by bugs. Limited travel if you've gone over your travel quota.
Small and medium businesses are all.gone, Amazon etc have the game tied up.
Empty town centre shops and pubs turned into living quarters and smart cities.
Why do you think the elites have been raping the current system so much? Theyve been quickly taking out billions, probably already turned it into the new currency or more likely gold.
In five years we'll not be able to take a shit without permission.
Agree with most of this. The cashless society is already taking shape. I do my bit. Whenever i visit a shop / outlet or visitor attraction and they tell me it is card payments only, i send them a complaint saying that i'm mentally impaired and need to pay by cash so i know where i am and by not letting me do so, they've broken the Equality Act 2010 and thus the law.
I always get what i've spent refunded including entry fees / ticket prices and sometimes i get extras that i ask for such as i got a free years pass for the National Trust and if they don't give me what i asked, i'll take them to court.
I also ask that in future visits if i can pay by cash for things as a reasonable adjustment and a few have backed down and agreed.
Ironically i visited one place recently which was an old country house estate which used card payments only in car parks, gift shops, cafe etc but on leaving they had a huge glass box in the exit foyer...................FOR CASH DONATIONS!!
I told them they'd got a nerve. It's ok taking cash for donations all of a sudden ain't it? Pathetic hypocrites.
Cashless society is something we have to kick off against and i'm doing my bit by being an obnoxious, obstinate and formidable persistent opponent whenever someone dictates to me whether i can pay by cash or not. I can and i will! I don't leave them alone until they back down. If it takes a letter a week. It is very stressful and time consuming but it matters. I wish more people would stick up for their rights.
It makes them think twice at the very least that they can't just dictate to us and get away with it.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
I want to pay by cash. I know where i am. I don't have lots of cash so it's easier for me if i go out for the day to take out some cash and then i know what i've got and what i've spent. Can't do that with card.
Also, often my card gets declined at places even when i've got cash in due to banking issues and it's embarrassing and causes stress and inconvenience. Cash is best for me and nobody will tell me i can't pay by card or they'll get a letter of claim.
What about older people too? They prefer to use cash a lot of them.
Card is fine if you've got loads in the bank and you don't need to keep a strict track. I haven't and so it is not helpful.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
I want to pay by cash. I know where i am. I don't have lots of cash so it's easier for me if i go out for the day to take out some cash and then i know what i've got and what i've spent. Can't do that with card.
Also, often my card gets declined at places even when i've got cash in due to banking issues and it's embarrassing and causes stress and inconvenience. Cash is best for me and nobody will tell me i can't pay by card or they'll get a letter of claim.
What about older people too? They prefer to use cash a lot of them.
Card is fine if you've got loads in the bank and you don't need to keep a strict track. I haven't and so it is not helpful.
Yes, I feel your pain. But really it does not make a blind bit of difference to the economy.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
Tell that to homeless people, charities who use charity boxes, the elderly who divvy up their money so they know exactly what they are spending.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
Tell that to homeless people, charities who use charity boxes, the elderly who divvy up their money so they know exactly what they are spending.
I agree there, a cashless society simply won't work.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
I want to pay by cash. I know where i am. I don't have lots of cash so it's easier for me if i go out for the day to take out some cash and then i know what i've got and what i've spent. Can't do that with card.
Also, often my card gets declined at places even when i've got cash in due to banking issues and it's embarrassing and causes stress and inconvenience. Cash is best for me and nobody will tell me i can't pay by card or they'll get a letter of claim.
What about older people too? They prefer to use cash a lot of them.
Card is fine if you've got loads in the bank and you don't need to keep a strict track. I haven't and so it is not helpful.
Yes, I feel your pain. But really it does not make a blind bit of difference to the economy.
Maybe but i'm not looking at the bigger picture of the economy. I'm looking at this as my human right to be able to pay by the legal tender of the state - CASH - being removed from me. This is all that matters to me. Not the economy although i take your point RD.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
I want to pay by cash. I know where i am. I don't have lots of cash so it's easier for me if i go out for the day to take out some cash and then i know what i've got and what i've spent. Can't do that with card.
Also, often my card gets declined at places even when i've got cash in due to banking issues and it's embarrassing and causes stress and inconvenience. Cash is best for me and nobody will tell me i can't pay by card or they'll get a letter of claim.
What about older people too? They prefer to use cash a lot of them.
Card is fine if you've got loads in the bank and you don't need to keep a strict track. I haven't and so it is not helpful.
Yes, I feel your pain. But really it does not make a blind bit of difference to the economy.
Maybe but i'm not looking at the bigger picture of the economy. I'm looking at this as my human right to be able to pay by the legal tender of the state - CASH - being removed from me. This is all that matters to me. Not the economy although i take your point RD.
They can't remove cash.
Anyway this is a distraction from the main point, we cannot afford to heat our homes.
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Of course. Apologies RD. Back on topic re: gas prices.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
Tell that to homeless people, charities who use charity boxes, the elderly who divvy up their money so they know exactly what they are spending.
I agree there, a cashless society simply won't work.
Just spent 25 days in 2 capital cities never used cash nor saw it used once RD.
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Honestly Panda it does not matter if currency is available in gold, paper or digital code.
Tell that to homeless people, charities who use charity boxes, the elderly who divvy up their money so they know exactly what they are spending.
I agree there, a cashless society simply won't work.
Just spent 25 days in 2 capital cities never used cash nor saw it used once RD.
So what?
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Even we were surprised that we did not have change any money at all the whole time, we overpaid a couple of time due to minimum charges but no cash required.
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Even we were surprised that we did not have change any money at all the whole time, we overpaid a couple of time due to minimum charges but no cash required.
So what?
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Even we were surprised that we did not have change any money at all the whole time, we overpaid a couple of time due to minimum charges but no cash required.
So what?
So what nothing RD
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Yeah because she'll play her part, she's just as bad an actor fat Boris
There's literally no arguing with this. It's like trying to argue with a Jehovah's Witness.
Whatever anyone does, it's either directly aiding the Great Reset or its pretending not to so it can help deceive people and help the Great Reset to happen.
How do you argue with that?
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Even we were surprised that we did not have change any money at all the whole time, we overpaid a couple of time due to minimum charges but no cash required.
So what?
So what nothing RD
I agree
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We need to get a grip on something. Energy is fundamental to the economy. It is its life blood. Without it nothing can happen.
Work things out from that.
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Yeah because she'll play her part, she's just as bad an actor fat Boris
There's literally no arguing with this. It's like trying to argue with a Jehovah's Witness.
Whatever anyone does, it's either directly aiding the Great Reset or its pretending not to so it can help deceive people and help the Great Reset to happen.
How do you argue with that?
Stop arguing then, easy. I didn't ask you to argue with every post I make.
But people like you are sleep walking into Agenda 2030.
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They'll soon know about it when it happens and rue their ignorance.
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30% rise in gas prices worldwide already due to Russia cutting off gas supplies. Have faith in Truss though :laugh:
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30% rise in gas prices worldwide already due to Russia cutting off gas supplies. Have faith in Truss though :laugh:
Not so much a case of faith in Truss.
But there will be plenty on here who will use this to muddy the bath before she has even been in the thing.
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30% rise in gas prices worldwide already due to Russia cutting off gas supplies. Have faith in Truss though :laugh:
Not so much a case of faith in Truss.
But there will be plenty on here who will use this to muddy the bath before she has even been in the thing.
That's 30% extra profits for the oil and gas companies. Which she has already said she wont tax to help fund cuts to bills.
She and the rest of the shareholders will have a nice warm bath - it will be a cold shower for the rest of us.
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Refusing a windfall tax is very odd policy.
1) It's morally the right thing to do. Companies like Shell and BP have done absolutely nothing to justify the vast increase in their profits. They are simply benefitting from Putin's economic warfare.
2) It would bring in very significant amounts of money into the Govt's coffers, that could be used to cover some of the costs of the energy crisis.
3) It is politically very, very unpopular to be seen to be protecting these profits while everyone else suffers. It gives other parties a massive free hit.
I truly cannot fathom why she is doing this.
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Refusing a windfall tax is very odd policy.
1) It's morally the right thing to do. Companies like Shell and BP have done absolutely nothing to justify the vast increase in their profits. They are simply benefitting from Putin's economic warfare.
2) It would bring in very significant amounts of money into the Govt's coffers, that could be used to cover some of the costs of the energy crisis.
3) It is politically very, very unpopular to be seen to be protecting these profits while everyone else suffers. It gives other parties a massive free hit.
I truly cannot fathom why she is doing this.
BST i would of thought you of all people would be aware that when it comes to politicians its always a case of not what they say but more of what they actually do.
It usually adds up to two different things.
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Yeah because she'll play her part, she's just as bad an actor fat Boris
There's literally no arguing with this. It's like trying to argue with a Jehovah's Witness.
Whatever anyone does, it's either directly aiding the Great Reset or its pretending not to so it can help deceive people and help the Great Reset to happen.
How do you argue with that?
She'll be parroting Uncle Klaus's soundbites soon enough.
https://www.weforum.org/people/liz-truss
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Honestly Nudge, there is one reason why Truss won't achieve economic growth. We physically do not have enough gas to generate the energy to power growth.
Economists think everything is run by money. The truth is money is just a token and it mostly represents energy.
Without affordable energy we are sunk. As we are about to find out.
RD.
There were similar arguments in the 70s after the 1973 and 1979 oil price shocks.
The response was that the West diversified its energy sources and massively increased energy efficiency. I've seen it convincingly argued that the reason the West so comprehensively defeated the USSR in the Cold War was that this paradigm shift gave a new dynamism to Western capitalism, while the USSR thought it was in clover with higher prices for its oil exports meaning they didn't modernise their industry.
Not bound to happen this time, and certainly the next year at least will be very tough. But Russia's behaviour has made it clear to Europe that it has to wean itself off gas very quickly. That is part of the transition that the world has to make towards renewables. It's been made existential now. Western capitalism has a long record of responding to existential threats with dynamic flexibility.
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The news inevitably these days includes yet another group either going on strike or considering going on strike. Barristers, (barristers!) are on strike now. Inflation is a direct cause of labour unrest. The current inflation is often argued to be temporary and a blip, but given the geo political soundbites we hear about never giving in to Putin, we ain't going to see Russian gas again for a long, long time. With inflation, like night following day, comes higher and ever higher interest rates. The Thatcher bonfire of regulations in the 1980's removed pretty well all the other levers with which to repress it. So, inflation becoming serious, interest rates inexorably climbing, negative equity, rising unemployment and falling investment all looming, I am enthralled by the prospect of a Conservative premier, La Truss, being forced to introduce a Prices and Incomes policy. That really will play well......
BobG
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Albie
A few weeks ago you were insisting that we had to cap energy prices to keep inflation down.
Here's one of the country's leading macroeconomists gently explaining why that thinking is wrong.
https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1567417046115254272
The reply a few down really sums it up. "The price of something doesn't go down just because someone else buys it for you."
The inflation comes from the fact that the energy that the country in now buying on global markets is five times costlier than it was last year. The subsidising of the end user cost doesn't change the fact that we as a country are paying that cost.
We COULD mitigate some of that effect by confiscating the profits that UK based production companies are making from this market. For reasons known only to her, Truss has insisted she won't do that.
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When Liz Truss rejects a windfall tax on the £170,000,000,000 profits oil and gas giants are expected to make, it's worth remembering:
She's a former Shell employee whose party has taken more than £1,500,000 in donations from the oil and gas industry since the last election.
https://twitter.com/zarahsultana/status/1567489465177849857
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There has been nearly a 5% drop in oil prices today
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When Liz Truss rejects a windfall tax on the £170,000,000,000 profits oil and gas giants are expected to make, it's worth remembering:
She's a former Shell employee whose party has taken more than £1,500,000 in donations from the oil and gas industry since the last election.
https://twitter.com/zarahsultana/status/1567489465177849857
Isn’t the £170bn the worldwide profits of these companies? If so how you going to tax money that isn’t even earned in the country?
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They are registered as British companies, smack them with high taxes and they will just move to another mire accommodating country where they will pay their tax revenue and we will miss out on any.
Just the reason Royal Dutch Shell became just Shell and moved their headquarters here a couple of years ago from Holland. TO PAY LESS TAX.
Basically it's all or nothing with them, take a big lump and they run away and you get nothing, lose investment, lose jobs, and your pensions take a hit.
And the lefties that are spouting this know it, and will kick off about the government if it happens, and blame them.
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The capitalist shareholders moaning that the taxpayer should fund their £million foreign holiday homes whilst they can't heat their own.
Off you go to the Cayman Islands then - and leave your licences to extract from the North Sea behind.
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Sounds like you are happy for the country to be held hostage by big business selby, cut taxes to gain their grace and then let them dictate via a desperate government on how much tax they pay ever?
They have already said that a windfall tax would not affect investment.
If the only string in her bow is for her to allow the country as a whole to pay dividends to energy company shareholders I would imaging it will be back to open season on the government relatively soon.
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Syd, I don’t think it does sound like selby is happy for the country to be held hostage by big business.
He is simply making some valid points about what could possibly happen if the said big companies are hit with significantly higher taxes.
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Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....
All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?
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Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....
All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?
Which cases pud?
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Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....
All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?
Let's be crystal clear about this.
Truss is today going to announce that she is going to borrow something north of £100bn and pump it straight into the pockets of Shell and BP.
That is what is happening. That's £100bn added to the Debt. That'll be used as a reason to excuse reduced Govt expenditure on public services in future, because "we have to control the debt."
We are giving them public money to take our own gas out of our own gas fields and sell it at obscene prices, inflated by a fascist warmonger.
Do you think your nitionif economic rightness might be letting you down here?
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I had R4 on this morning, but was a bit distracted and didn't take this in.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1567780412415512578
I've gone back and listened again. Yep. That's what the new rising star minister said.
We are so, so far beyond any use of logic.
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Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....
All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?
Let's be crystal clear about this.
Truss is today going to announce that she is going to borrow something north of £100bn and pump it straight into the pockets of Shell and BP.
That is what is happening. That's £100bn added to the Debt. That'll be used as a reason to excuse reduced Govt expenditure on public services in future, because "we have to control the debt."
We are giving them public money to take our own gas out of our own gas fields and sell it at obscene prices, inflated by a fascist warmonger.
Do you think your nitionif economic rightness might be letting you down here?
I think you misunderstand, my position is unchanged.
1. There absolutely should be additional taxes on the energy producers given the current scale.
2. There should be the opportunity to offset said taxes with capital investment.
3. This should not be a sole UK issue to deal with it should be spread worldwide with agreement across the piece. I saw a good point this morning around Norway and whether they should be sharing the wealth they'll benefit from... Difficult situation.
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Indeed, we do need inward investment we absolutely do not need to be a country that deters investment any more than in some cases we already have....
All shareholders can move their money where they want, do we want shareholders to invest in the UK companies or Japanese, American, Brazilian, Indian ones?
Which cases pud?
bump
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Truss to lift the ban on fracking. 100 new licences being issued to drill for oil
And has in the North Sea. And I’m just over 7 years no new diesel and petrol cars to be sold .really ??
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It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if a Windfall Tax is introduced .
If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .
Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .
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It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if a Windfall Tax is introduced .
If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .
Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .
What companies?
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So it looks like someone on the minimum wage with average energy use is going to see their bill go up by £1400, and they get a £400 handout.
Someone earning £100,000 with average energy use is going to see their bill go up by £1400. They are going to get a £400 handout and about £1100 back in reduced NI.
And that solves the problem, does it?
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Starmer absolutely annihilated Truss in the House of Commons earlier.
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It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if a Windfall Tax is introduced .
If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .
Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .
What companies?
I don't know because it's not happened yet but trust me they'd be plenty willing to make money even at a significantly lower level than today .
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Starmer absolutely annihilated Truss in the House of Commons earlier.
Starmer is on the right side of this with the vast majority of the country saying the same thing .
The winds changed out there in the real world and this abhorrent Energy Plan is an absolute gift to Labour .
The country's had enough of this racket and whilst the Tories nail their colours to their outdated and unfuctionable ideology and still believe it's 1987 it's taking them to a comprehensive defeat at the next GE .
What we can clearly see now in parliament is clear daylight between blue and red , we've got a new PM who actually answers questions at PMQ's and is more or less telling the country It's business as usual and the same mandate that Thatcher planted in Dizzy Lizzy 's head , problem she's got is that it's a catastrophic failure with the end game with us now .
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This plan sums up the Tory ethos and is why I've never voted Tory and never will.
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This plan sums up the Tory ethos and is why I've never voted Tory and never will.
Since 2010 the Tory PM has always hid in broad daylight so to speak even though most of em were Thatcher disciples .
Dizzy Lizzy actually tells you she is at a time when it's just about the last play in the game you'd go with .
She's happy to tell you she thinks it's better the rich benefit the most from tax cuts .
She's happy to see grotesque profiteering by the energy companies .
She's told you that UK workers are lazy and feckless and need more hard graft to put them in their place .
She's happy to pick fights with Trade Unions .
Problem is she's 40 years out of date .
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Summary from Martin Lewis;
https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1567829040102342656/photo/1
More detail to come in the upcoming mini-budget from Kwarteng.
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Summary from Martin Lewis;
https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1567829040102342656/photo/1
More detail to come in the upcoming mini-budget from Kwarteng.
That's been the most nuts thing about today for me. No details whatsoever on finances, how it's going to be paid for and who is going to pay it.
Imagine how much a Labour PM would get crucified standing up in parliament and stating we are going to spend tens/hundreds of billions of pounds with no detail. f**king mental. People still blame a global financial crisis on Labour yet 12 years of this absolute shitshow and we are still f**ked and they still get a let off. Mindboggling.
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It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if a Windfall Tax is introduced .
If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .
Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .
What companies?
I don't know because it's not happened yet but trust me they'd be plenty willing to make money even at a significantly lower level than today .
So you’re guessing then
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It's absolute nonsense in my opinion to think that the UK taxpayer has to lump this abhorrent Energy Plan because the Energy Companies apparently hold all the aces if a Windfall Tax is introduced .
If they don't like it and bugga off and invest somewhere else then fine .
Fine because there's plenty of companies who'd happily take their place and provide the UK with our energy and be well happy even with significantly reduced profits .
What companies?
I don't know because it's not happened yet but trust me they'd be plenty willing to make money even at a significantly lower level than today .
So you’re guessing then
Not at all , the complete opposite to what I'm saying is that absolutely nobody would be remotely interested in providing the UK with its energy if the current ones did one despite healthy profit margins .
Do you think that's a likely scenario ?
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This is an interesting angle which had t dawned on me.
https://mobile.twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1567776014738014208
It's really not a good look for Norway to be charging other NATO countries obscene prices for gas because the market says they can. When the market has been rigged by a fascist enemy of NATO.
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That's sort of how I've been looking at it for a few days now.
Putin has been weaponising gas against us, with his control of Russian energy business like Gazprom.
Given western energy giants are making fortunes daily on the back of Putins war... Why should we not expect them to contribute to the stability of the economies they operate within?
Why should the general population and small business shoulder the weight of this economic war alone?
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RD.
The profits they are making are coming directly out of the pockets of consumers, and now, Government finances.
It is absolute insanity to allow them to walk off with that without taking those profits off them and giving them back to the British people.
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Truss keeps saying the cost of this intervention can be mitigated through the power of economic growth, (if us lazy sods pull our fingers out.)
But how can we grow the economy when energy is constrained? A growing economy needs energy and we don't have the gas! We are already being warned to expect blackouts!
Or perhaps to sustain the illusion of growth we keep buying more gas at massively inflated prices, loading the real cost on the national credit card?
Does this make any sense?
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It makes zero sense in the short to medium term.
The gas price hike is costing us something like 5% of GDP. There is no way on God's earth we are going to see an annual rise in GDP of 5% a year after inflation any time soon.
It makes absolutely zero sense to not tax the UK based gas producers. And to put the squeeze in Norway too. Big style.
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I just don't think Truss understands, this is not business as usual.
The gargantuan profits of the energy giants are not deserved or normal service. Economic growth in these circumstances will load ever more debt on the nation.
It's an economic war and needs to be treated as such.
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Truss appears to be suggesting a cap at 6.5% above the existing price level, paid for by an extended loan over an unspecified period.
In effect, Truss is offering a mortgage on future energy bills, to support the existing energy system.
The UK does not have to offer resources produced in the UK to international markets, it can apply simple export tariff barriers.
Leaving the sector unreformed will not add to UK energy security if those resources are sold on international markets.
There is no discussion of the real issue, which is decoupling electricity prices from wholesale gas markets.
The EU are discussing this change at the moment, and if they move, the UK will have to follow in step.
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It looks like Centrica are going to do the government's job for it, in effect windfall taxing themselves.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/sep/10/british-gas-cap-profits-cut-energy-bills-centrica-electricity
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Yes RD, I read it as sensible and as an attempt to maybe put off chatter about putting it all in public hands.
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I'm starting to wonder if we are witnessing the beginning of the end of Thatcherite free market Capitalism? The grounds for complaint are multiplying at an increasingly rapid rate. What you might call the 'philosophical climate' seems to be starting to change. The risks and dangers of continued unfettered free market Capitalism are stark - and the evidence, all over the world, grows day by day.
I'm not suggesting Thatcherism is dead. Far from it. But it is under more pressure now than it has ever been before. And that pressure is continuing to grow.
BobG
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Bob.
We've had three economic crises in the past 15 years, each one of which has been far more severe than anything else since the War.
In every case, the Free Market has been entirely out of its depth, or a cause of the problem. In each one, the Govt has had to step in to prevent disaster, pouring money into the economy on a scale never seen outside war.
At some point, this level of Govt intervention has to be seen for what it is. It's a sign that in the challenges that have faced us so far this century, unfettered free market capitalism has been nowhere near up to the task.
I think it's time we addressed that, rather than stumble on to the next crisis.
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I agree Billy. I was suggesting that perhaps the tide of time has now reached slack water. Without an inspired free market leader in sight I am now wondering if we are watching the tide starting to turn? If it is, then your wish may be starting to come true
BobG.
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I think what it is, and this is not just a UK thing, is the economy is just not growing at the rates they expect. Not for more than a decade.
Capitalism works when the tide is rising, lifting all ships.
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Thing is RD, the tide rose a LOT under Thatcher. But it didn't lift the poorest 25%'s boats.
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New prices/kWh under Truss's cap plan announced.
https://mobile.twitter.com/theheatinghub/status/1568491558365806593
Note, this doesn't include the standing charge which is about £0.50 per day for each of gas and electric.
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I'm starting to wonder if we are witnessing the beginning of the end of Thatcherite free market Capitalism? The grounds for complaint are multiplying at an increasingly rapid rate. What you might call the 'philosophical climate' seems to be starting to change. The risks and dangers of continued unfettered free market Capitalism are stark - and the evidence, all over the world, grows day by day.
I'm not suggesting Thatcherism is dead. Far from it. But it is under more pressure now than it has ever been before. And that pressure is continuing to grow.
BobG
The free market has enabled the biggest growth in world population and living standards in human history.
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There are "free markets" and "free markets".
The mechanisms that transformed Germany after the war, never mind Japan, or South Korea or China more recently, are a long, long way removed from Thatcher's model of a free market.
You can call for the end of the Thatcherite model without wanting to embrace Maoism.
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And I wasn't calling for the end of anything. nc seems to have misread what I wrote. I made an observation, a hypothesis, from observing current events. It may be right or it may be wrong. I made no judgements nor called.for no actions. Commentary is exactly that. Intelligent analysis.
BobG
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And I wasn't calling for the end of anything. nc seems to have misread what I wrote. I made an observation, a hypothesis, from observing current events. It may be right or it may be wrong. I made no judgements nor called.for no actions. Commentary is exactly that. Intelligent analysis.
BobG
Ok Bob, I didn’t mean to sound argumentative. I was just putting a point out there for discussion. I think that over the last 3 years the economic model has had strain on it from external factors and our reaction to one of those.
If we zoom out and look at the bigger picture, people will see the overall success. We take a lot for granted.
https://www.humanprogress.org/dataset/people-living-in-extreme-poverty/
Also, the Russian army seem to be struggling…
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And I wasn't calling for the end of anything. nc seems to have misread what I wrote. I made an observation, a hypothesis, from observing current events. It may be right or it may be wrong. I made no judgements nor called.for no actions. Commentary is exactly that. Intelligent analysis.
BobG
Ok Bob, I didn’t mean to sound argumentative. I was just putting a point out there for discussion. I think that over the last 3 years the economic model has had strain on it from external factors and our reaction to one of those.
If we zoom out and look at the bigger picture, people will see the overall success. We take a lot for granted.
https://www.humanprogress.org/dataset/people-living-in-extreme-poverty/
Also, the Russian army seem to be struggling…
IMO, the best line on this whole thread, “we take a lot for granted”.
Possibly the best line on the whole forum.
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I used to take university funding for granted...
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I used to take university funding for granted...
I’m not sticking up for one political party’s policies versus the other, I’m sticking up for the economic system as a whole.
Blair’s Labour was capitalist.
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And I wasn't calling for the end of anything. nc seems to have misread what I wrote. I made an observation, a hypothesis, from observing current events. It may be right or it may be wrong. I made no judgements nor called.for no actions. Commentary is exactly that. Intelligent analysis.
BobG
Ok Bob, I didn’t mean to sound argumentative. I was just putting a point out there for discussion. I think that over the last 3 years the economic model has had strain on it from external factors and our reaction to one of those.
If we zoom out and look at the bigger picture, people will see the overall success. We take a lot for granted.
https://www.humanprogress.org/dataset/people-living-in-extreme-poverty/
Also, the Russian army seem to be struggling…
I'm a socialist but I agree that capitalism has been very successful in raising average living standards.
But as I say, there are many different forms of capitalism.
Since the start of the 20th century, we've been through 3 big phases.
Up to 1940, the philosophy was to keep Govt out of the economy. Let the market decide. Make sure the Treasury balanced the books.
From 1940 to 1980 was a period of major intervention. Nationalisation. Strong Trade Union power. Government spending on a large scale. Still a market economy but with a lot of the freedoms curtailed. Keynesian economics ruling the roost with Govt intervening to direct the economy.
1980-? An attempt to revert to pre War conditions. Privatisation. Curbing the unions. Giving business the power to make decisions. Govt spending massively reduced (until a series of events meant it had to be massively increased). The cherry on the cake being Austerity that took us right back to the 1920s, like Keynes had never existed.
The record shows that, as far as ordinary people's living standards are concerned, the 1940-1980 period is a hands down winner. And the Austerity decade has been particuy cataclysmically bad.
https://mobile.twitter.com/darioperkins/status/1567903416382357504
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New prices/kWh under Truss's cap plan announced.
https://mobile.twitter.com/theheatinghub/status/1568491558365806593
Note, this doesn't include the standing charge which is about £0.50 per day for each of gas and electric.
Standing charge now and from the 1st October
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
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I used to take university funding for granted...
I’m not sticking up for one political party’s policies versus the other, I’m sticking up for the economic system as a whole.
Blair’s Labour was capitalist.
University/grants.. it was a play on words..
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New prices/kWh under Truss's cap plan announced.
https://mobile.twitter.com/theheatinghub/status/1568491558365806593
Note, this doesn't include the standing charge which is about £0.50 per day for each of gas and electric.
Standing charge now and from the 1st October
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/check-if-energy-price-cap-affects-you
Those were the OFGEM figures before the latest Govt cap. But I'd expect the standing charge to be more or less that.
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We will not know for sure until the mini budget from Kwarteng.
The EU are in discussions to reform electricity markets, breaking the link of leccy consumer costs to wholesale gas prices.
In the UK, we have a consultation running until Oct 12......after that, the mini budget will set out how the UK intends to address the same question.
Most unlikely that the UK will have a different architecture to the EU, because the systems are entwined, and need to be interoperable.
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We need to know what the new cap cost per unit used of gas and electricity will be, before the end of September as they come into place on 1 Oct.?
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We need to know what the new cap cost per unit used of gas and electricity will be, before the end of September as they come into place on 1 Oct.?
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=283843.msg1185750#msg1185750
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I saw that - is it official.?
That’s a 21% rise in the electricity cap, and 41% up in the gas cap. If the “typical” household cap is going up from just under £2000 to £2500, how does that add up? Unless we use proportional less gas?
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Average usage is 12000kWh gas, 2900kWh electric.
Current tariffs are 7p gas, 28p electric. And about 75p/day standing charge.
That tots up to £1925.
With the new tariffs (10.3p and 34p) and the same standing charge, that will be £2495.
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Electric is too expensive. The UK needs to follow the EU and reform that.
And the standing charge is completely unfair. High users should pay more.
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I was interested to work out given the £400 rebate all households are getting on their energy bills at what level of usage would a household be paying less than this summer's rates under the Government's policy.
Based on 75p per day standing charge - but an increase from £1,971 to £2,500 on the average bill as per the BBC.
This would be anybody with energy usage 21% or more below average. Which will cover people in flats and smaller houses.
Conversely the higher your energy usage the bigger the % you'll see your costs increase. So the average bill is up 6.5% but a household with double the average usage will see their bill increase 19% i.e. a large detached house.
Therefore, though I strongly disagree with how this is being funded, I actually quite like the progressive nature of the mechanism it's being delivered through esp adding on the £650 benefit to the very poorest households.
The £400 rebate is crucial to this progressiveness though - let's see if it's repeated in year 2 of the policy.
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Branton.
The cap his very, very regressive though. It benefits people with high energy usage (i.e. wealthy people) far, far more than it benefits low usage people.
And that's only a part of the story. Truss says she will rescind the NI rise. That will also massively benefit high earners.
(To be honest, I did criticise the NI rise as regressive when Sunak introduced it. I was wrong. I thought that, like normal NI, it didn't apply after about £50k income, so wouldn't be affecting the very highest paid. I was wrong. It applied across the income range and therefore was very progressive. Cutting it is extremely regressive.
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Branton.
The cap his very, very regressive though. It benefits people with high energy usage (i.e. wealthy people) far, far more than it benefits low usage people.
And that's only a part of the story. Truss says she will rescind the NI rise. That will also massively benefit high earners.
(To be honest, I did criticise the NI rise as regressive when Sunak introduced it. I was wrong. I thought that, like normal NI, it didn't apply after about £50k income, so wouldn't be affecting the very highest paid. I was wrong. It applied across the income range and therefore was very progressive. Cutting it is extremely regressive.
Billy
Let's just stick to the energy cap
Can you explain how the cap is very regressive? I agree it would be without the £400 additional rebate for all.
Here's my workings: -
£1,200 cost now will save 9.3%; 63.5% if eligible for the £650 benefit
£1,557 cost now will be cost neutral; save 41.8% if eligible for £650 benefit. i.e anyone with a current bill below this figure will save money
£1,971 (average) cost now bill will rise 6.5%
£2,400 cost now bill will rise 11.0%
£3,942 (double average) cost now bill will rise 18.9%
So the mechanism itself, including the £400 rebate for all, is surely progressive in nature?
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You are right in terms of bald percentages. But that is, if I may say so, simplistic
What really matters is what someone is left having to pay out of their disposable income.
Someone in average earnings, paying the average amount for fuel will see their bill rise by £1000 over last year's figure (£2500 now as opposed to £1100 last year with £400 rebate). That's about 4% of average national gross salary.
Someone earning £100k per year a using double the average fuel will see their bill rise from £2200 to £5000, so a £2400 increase after the £400 rebate. 2.4% of their gross income.
But the real effect is on disposable salary. Someone on average pay is going to struggle to find a spare £1000. Someone on £100k shouldn't have to tighten their belt too much to find £2400.
For one, it means cuts to the bone. For the other, perhaps delaying the new car or a less lavish holiday. Or dipping into savings
And as I say, you cannot look at this in isolation. The NI cut will massively skew these numbers in favour of the wealthy.
If the money for that cut is available (and I don't actually think it is, without borrowing it against future public services cuts) then use it to increase the protection of the poorer half of the population.
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On a wider issue, there is plenty of energy and plenty of money (6th wealthiest country) it's the distribution of it, how the problems of today are dealt with and what is left for the next few generations to clean up.
A motherhood statement maybe but extremely important along with a government capable of delivering for the country rather than concern for self survival. I interpret Centrica's moves as looking to head off moves to pubic ownership, good signs but not a permanent fix, where is the rest of the cavalry?
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I just put the new cap rates into a calculation based upon our suppliers estimate of our annual KWH usages. Works out as a 30% rise, about £800.
At the last rise in April our DD went up by £75 a month but using next to no gas all summer means we are about £900 in credit. Add on the £400 rebate means the DD shouldn’t increase from October..
Still stupidly high though..
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I see the fracking ban has been lifted. Hopefully that will see a reduction in costs in the coming years and make us more energy secure as a nation.
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Fracking will scarcely scrape the skin of the problem.
Bizarre that we are allowing that but banning onshore wind and solar farms.
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Fracking will scarcely scrape the skin of the problem.
Bizarre that we are allowing that but banning onshore wind and solar farms.
Massive offshore wind project still ongoing off the coast of Hornsea where nobody lives. Wind and solar are important cogs in the machine I don’t doubt that.
What are your thoughts on nuclear BST?
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The frackers are saying they can bring gas online in the space of 6months. If that is true then I don't think anything else can match it in terms of speed.
But the issues of earth tremors remain.and if they sell it on the international markets then Kwateng admits himself it won't affect prices.
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But it's tiny amounts RD.
It'll make some serious money for someone for sure, given the gas price. That's what's driving it, not an attempt to solve our national problem.
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Fracking will scarcely scrape the skin of the problem.
Bizarre that we are allowing that but banning onshore wind and solar farms.
Massive offshore wind project still ongoing off the coast of Hornsea where nobody lives. Wind and solar are important cogs in the machine I don’t doubt that.
What are your thoughts on nuclear BST?
I'm not ideologically against nuclear power. It has a lot of advantages for base load. I must admit, I'm not up to speed with what the costs are relative to wind/solar and storage as base load.
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Fracking is nonsense on stilts in the overall energy debate.
Here is why:
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-why-fracking-is-not-the-answer-to-the-uks-energy-crisis/
The Truss announcement is a performative gesture, not a meaningful contribution to the discussion, which is really about how we move from fossil fuels to electricity from renewables.
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Yeah I’ll be honest, I can’t fully wrap my head around all this yet.
There are renewable sources of electricity generation but how can you get a renewable source of gas?
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What is the fastest way we could bring affordable energy to the market?
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You are right in terms of bald percentages. But that is, if I may say so, simplistic
What really matters is what someone is left having to pay out of their disposable income.
Someone in average earnings, paying the average amount for fuel will see their bill rise by £1000 over last year's figure (£2500 now as opposed to £1100 last year with £400 rebate). That's about 4% of average national gross salary.
Someone earning £100k per year a using double the average fuel will see their bill rise from £2200 to £5000, so a £2400 increase after the £400 rebate. 2.4% of their gross income.
But the real effect is on disposable salary. Someone on average pay is going to struggle to find a spare £1000. Someone on £100k shouldn't have to tighten their belt too much to find £2400.
For one, it means cuts to the bone. For the other, perhaps delaying the new car or a less lavish holiday. Or dipping into savings
And as I say, you cannot look at this in isolation. The NI cut will massively skew these numbers in favour of the wealthy.
If the money for that cut is available (and I don't actually think it is, without borrowing it against future public services cuts) then use it to increase the protection of the poorer half of the population.
Billy I've explained how the impact of the price cap is provably progressive in the context of this summer's prices. Simple maths but not simplistic.
You're talking about the increase in bills v last winter. Fair enough. But you make a fundamental error in failing to separate the impact of wholesale price rises and the impact of the price cap.
What is very, very regressive is the increase in energy prices. Last winter average bill of £1,277; this winter with no action approx £4,500. An increase of £3,223 for an average household (12.9% of avg salary); for our richer £100k double average energy user "only" 6.4% of salary.
The cap saves the average user £2,400 (9.6% of salary), but saves the richer double energy user £4,314 (only 4.3% of salary). Therefore the cap is provably progressive.
Yes it still leaves an overall regressive result*. Average user bill up £823 (3.3% of salary); double user bill up £2,132 (2.1% of salary) - but compare to above!
* Except for the very poorest households who (dependent on usage) are likely to save money on last winter's bills with the extra £650 benefit.
So you are wholly incorrect in stating the cap is 'very, very regressive'. It isn't - as I've proved it's progressive.
It can be argued the Government should have gone further and in a perfect world I'd agree but consider this cap as it is likely to cost a staggering c. £150bn - more than twice the Furlough scheme.
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The cap right now is probably best because it is easy to apply and does not require a whole load of expensive bureaucrats to sort out.
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Branton.
I think I misunderstood your point last night. My apologies. I was talking about the net effect of how much extra different wage/user groups would be paying compared to last year. I see that you are talking about how much they will now be paying compared to the counterfactual of no cap.
Happy to accept that by this definition, the cap is not regressive compared to the (non-starter) counterfactual of doing nothing.
However, I'm struggling to see how a policy that leaves the average household seeing an annual increase in their costs of 4% of salary, while a wealthy household sees an increase of half that can really be called "progressive".
To clear up my take, the policy we've chosen is very regressive compared to some easily implementable alternatives.
For example, we could easily have implemented a stepped cap. Keep the unit rate below some total annual usage at current rates or lower, and charge steeply higher rates on usage above that value. Choose the figures so that the overall cost to the Exchequer is the same, but the effect would be to angle the benefit to the poorer. And incidentally, massively incentivise high users to economise. That would be both genuinely progressive AND make overall economic sense.
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Given the desperate situation, how can we bring affordable energy to the market?
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RD.
I like the idea that pressure should be brought to bear on Norway to not make obscene profits at the expense of fellow NATO countries from a gas price hike caused by a fascist dictator.
In other words, suspend the market mechanism in a market that is dysfunctional.
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Yeah I’ll be honest, I can’t fully wrap my head around all this yet.
There are renewable sources of electricity generation but how can you get a renewable source of gas?
Change to electricity in most cases and use green hydrogen where this is not possible.
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Energy market reform and a progressive pricing structure are the fundamental changes that need to happen.
The difficulty is where this runs counter to vested interests and core ideology beliefs.
A good summary in the round from Prof. Michael Grubb here;
https://theconversation.com/liz-trusss-energy-plan-freezes-bills-but-leaves-dysfunctional-market-intact-190267
This may not be what the Tory right want to hear, so the question is how to sell these solutions to the skeptical.
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This is the important bit from the link Albie
''The reason is a pricing structure that is no longer fit for purpose. One would never guess from the current package that the most recent contracts for new renewable sources – including large volumes of offshore wind – cost less than a quarter of the wholesale price of generating electricity from fossil fuels. And they are by far the fastest growing contributors to electricity generation in the UK''
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It needs to be remembered that the conservatives have committed to net zero by 2050, so it’s recycling old political points in my opinion to talk about vested interests in fossil fuels. Although yes, those on the right of the party don’t believe in the net zero project.
If wind power was the perfect no.1 option for electricity generation then it would be more valuable and cost more would it not? Genuine question, I want it to work.
For years, environmentalists and the left have not advocated for nuclear. Perhaps had they done, we’d be in a better state by now.
I think everyone wants what is best for humanity, but has different ideas about how to get there / make it actually work.
Sydney - how would nationwide electricity as a heating source look?
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It needs to be remembered that the conservatives have committed to net zero by 2050, so it’s recycling old political points in my opinion to talk about vested interests in fossil fuels. Although yes, those on the right of the party don’t believe in the net zero project.
If wind power was the perfect no.1 option for electricity generation then it would be more valuable and cost more would it not? Genuine question, I want it to work.
Why would it cost more?
For years, environmentalists and the left have not advocated for nuclear. Perhaps had they done, we’d be in a better state by now.
I think everyone wants what is best for humanity, but has different ideas about how to get there / make it actually work.
Sydney - how would nationwide electricity as a heating source look?
It would look like reverse cycle a/c and heat pumps.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62882964
Head of IFS says the support package is "poorly targeted". Precisely my point. We are pouring money into the pockets of wealthy people who could look after themselves.
There'll be a payback, when the cost to Govt has to be settled. Pound to a penny Truss and Kwarteng will want to do that by cutting public services.
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What is the fastest way we could bring affordable energy to the market?
RD,
Separate the electricity from renewables market from the legacy fossil and nuclear energy economy.
If you want electrification to take off, the unit cost of electricity needs to be lower than the unit cost of gas for the consumer.
The price signal is exactly the opposite at the moment.
It is incorrect because it does not reflect production costs, which are much lower (4x) from wind and solar, than from legacy sources.
Remove the link which ties leccy prices to wholesale gas prices, and allow these different markets to reach their own level.........gas will then fall away very quickly.
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Report from Goldman Sachs today says they expect the price of gas to drop very quickly over the winter, unless the weather is very bad. They say the EU countries have done the job of reducing demand and increasing storage.
That'd be Putin's trump card chewed up and spat back in his face.
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The price of gas futures, as reported by the BBC ceefax business pages, has dropped by 50% in the last 10 days. There is no information about exactly what gas futures are being reported but it's hard to imagine that such a dramatic fall is not representative of at least trends elsewhere.
What I find absolutely fascinating about this is the total and utter absence of comment anywhere, not even a remark, about this collapse in prices. I've neither seen nor heard a single mention. Wierd.
BobG
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An indication of how truly economically illiterate Tory MPs are.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1569940703697936385
1) The price cap will NOT bring down inflation. The fact that the Govt is effectively buying half our energy for us doesn't change the fact that UK plc is paying the full amount for its energy. This dick confuses RPI for inflation. They are not the same thing.
2) Far bigger. The cap doesn't come into operation until next month! Today's RPI figures are for the 12 months to August just gone. The cap wasn't even announced until after that period.
Same old Tories on economics. There are those too thick to understand what they don't know. And the others assume YOU are too thick to understand what they are doing.
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Europe on the move with energy markets;
https://www.politico.eu/article/ursula-von-der-leyen-state-of-the-european-union-soteu-speech-ukraine-russia-gas-energy-war/
Big question about timing, and how quickly a consensus can be reached on reforming energy markets.
Truss take note.....very high risk in taking a different line for the UK, when energy partners in Europe decide to change tack.
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The price of gas futures, as reported by the BBC ceefax business pages, has dropped by 50% in the last 10 days. There is no information about exactly what gas futures are being reported but it's hard to imagine that such a dramatic fall is not representative of at least trends elsewhere.
What I find absolutely fascinating about this is the total and utter absence of comment anywhere, not even a remark, about this collapse in prices. I've neither seen nor heard a single mention. Wierd.
BobG
Link to the BBC index of natural gas prices here;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cxwdwz5d8gxt/natural-gas
A further consideration is the weakness of the £ against the US Dollar going forwards.
This will have an impact on the viability of the Truss borrowing plan.
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Here's a bizarre thing.
3 days ago, Bulb sent me an email advising me that because of the rising energy prices, my payment would be going up.
Nothing surprising there.
Today I got an email that my monthly payment would be REDUCING by £45!!
I'm in credit by £400 but I was expecting a rise to circa £200 (from £142)
What's going on?? Anyone had something similar?
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I've had a similar mail from Eon saying my next direct debit will be £66 less than my current one. I assume this is the 6 stage £400 govt rebate which I heard was going to come off bills rather than be paid directly to people.
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Just read all the letter and you're correct BST. The new payment does include the Energy Support Payment.
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I've had a similar mail from Eon saying my next direct debit will be £66 less than my current one. I assume this is the 6 stage £400 govt rebate which I heard was going to come off bills rather than be paid directly to people.
I think the bill should be reduced, not the direct debit, those that are hard up will spend the cash elsewhere, the bill should reduce and the direct debit should stay the same
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Correct Filo
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I've had a similar mail from Eon saying my next direct debit will be £66 less than my current one. I assume this is the 6 stage £400 govt rebate which I heard was going to come off bills rather than be paid directly to people.
I think the bill should be reduced, not the direct debit, those that are hard up will spend the cash elsewhere, the bill should reduce and the direct debit should stay the same
The bill will be reduced. But to give that cash back both your dd and bill need to reduce.
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I've had a similar mail from Eon saying my next direct debit will be £66 less than my current one. I assume this is the 6 stage £400 govt rebate which I heard was going to come off bills rather than be paid directly to people.
It has been well publicised that that was going to be the way it will be managed.
It is a tricky one though isn’t it.
Reducing the DD could result in some people spending the DD saving on something like a new phone but if that £66 was paid straight to them then they might do exactly the same thing.
It probably would be better to leave the DD the same so that the customer built up a bit of credit in their energy account over the winter months when they would more than likely use more gas and electricity.
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It looks like Putin has sabotaged Nordstream to put the pressure on a bit more. Gas prices have risen 10% on the news.
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I've had a similar mail from Eon saying my next direct debit will be £66 less than my current one. I assume this is the 6 stage £400 govt rebate which I heard was going to come off bills rather than be paid directly to people.
It has been well publicised that that was going to be the way it will be managed.
It is a tricky one though isn’t it.
Reducing the DD could result in some people spending the DD saving on something like a new phone but if that £66 was paid straight to them then they might do exactly the same thing.
It probably would be better to leave the DD the same so that the customer built up a bit of credit in their energy account over the winter months when they would more than likely use more gas and electricity.
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I've had a similar mail from Eon saying my next direct debit will be £66 less than my current one. I assume this is the 6 stage £400 govt rebate which I heard was going to come off bills rather than be paid directly to people.
I think the bill should be reduced, not the direct debit, those that are hard up will spend the cash elsewhere, the bill should reduce and the direct debit should stay the same
I had the same one today ,I will just make over payments each month of £66 to keep me in credit as what will happen in march when the £66 payments stops
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I get virtually no spam texts as I usually put in an old phone number on forms if I don’t want the company to contact me.
However, yesterday I received one from ‘Gov.Uk’ inviting me to clink on a link where I could apply for my Energy Support Payment.
Make sure your vulnerable friends know the scammers are on the case.
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The morning interviews ............
Truss criticised for wrongly saying no household will pay more than £2,500 under energy price guarantee
In her interview round this morning Liz Truss sometimes gave the impression that her energy price guarantee will mean that no household will face a fuel bill of more than £2,500 a year.
That is not correct. Under the plan, unit prices are capped at a rate that means that the average household will pay no more than £2,500. But if you use more gas and electricity than average homes do, you will pay more. By the laws of maths, half of people will pay more than the average.
Guardian live
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Guardian is wrong on that.
£2500 isn't the figure that half of households will pay more, or less, than. That is absolutely NOT how the cap works.
The way it works is that the rates have been set so that anyone using exactly the average amount of electric and gas that was used last year will pay £2500 (before the £400 rebate is applied).
PM can't get it right, but then a journalist correcting her also gets it wrong. This is VERY important, because if everyone is profligate with gas and electric, everyone is going to get an eye watering bill that could go way over £2500.
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I should add that the Guardian did include the energy unit price caps further down the page along with a report from Full Fact stating they wrote to her saying she got it wrong yesterday too.
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LoL.
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I hope you've all submitted meter readings today....
BobG
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We've had heating on today, treat the wife to last of the cheap stuff
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Lol! Mine's not on yet. But I'm lucky. I've always had a very strong tolerance fpr both heat and cold.
BobG
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I'm luxuriating after OVO dispute which I took to The Ombudsman
I signed up last Sept Dual Fuel fixed for 2 years and the Switch went wrong. Eventually they started to supply me but they were charging me 32p pkwh for Electricity
One year on I got it to what I had signed for 18.7 pkwh
So short story they owed me 3000 units x 13 or £390 and daily charge was overcharged of £25 ish so £415
Ombudsman made them give me £75 goodwill as well so just under £500
Best bit I will have another year of 18 pkwh for electricity
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That's pretty good DW! I've been with OVO for 8 years or more now. Dual fuel on various fixed rate deals. I've noticed this last couple of years that they are no longer the friendly and flexible bunch they once were. The penalty of growing much much bigger I suppose. I decided I'd start to look at other, smaller, suppliers for next time.
BobG
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Mass protests across Austria, Czech Republic and various European countries against Governments and the cost of 'lockdown' crisis. Nothing at all on MSM. Nothing at all either from British people who 'don't do protests' and prefer to accept everything that is thrown at them with a stiff upper lip and have their bellies tickled.
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Colin.
Those protests are all being fostered by pro-Russian groups in those countries. The "news" about them is being spread by pro-Russian social media accounts.
You are being used as a gullible fool by forces you can't begin to imagine.
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Colin.
Those protests are all being fostered by pro-Russian groups in those countries. The "news" about them is being spread by pro-Russian social media accounts.
You are being used as a gullible fool by forces you can't begin to imagine.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Half of my family live in Graz mate.
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And what has that got to do with protests in the Czech Republic?
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And what has that got to do with protests in the Czech Republic?
Graz is in Austria.
I started my previous post with Austria, Czech Republic.
You're previous post said 'those countries'. Presumably referring to Austria too.
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I know where Graz is. What has that got to do with your knowledge of what's going on in the Czech Republic?
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Cause and effect Panda. Cause and effect.
BobG
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Something worth trying.
Back in August I downloaded the Loop energy use tracking app. It checks your smart meter readings regularly and charts your usage.
It's been a revolution Chez Stubbs-Tears.
We had got very lazy and profligate with energy usage. But it's been amazing what you can save.
Electric. Just turning lights off, using the oven less often & slow/pressure cooker more, and turning stuff off at the wall has dropped our average electric usage from 12kWh per day to 8kWh. That'll save £500 in a year.
Gas is even starker. We've turned down the temperature of the hot water on the boiler. We're taking shorter showers. Not running hot water unless it is absolutely necessary, and we've realised that we don't need the central heating on unless it gets really cold.
Last year, from 1 Sept to 3 Oct we used 450 kWh of gas. This year we've used 90kWh. I reckon the savings will be even bigger when the colder weather comes and we are more careful about thermostat settings and which rooms we heat when. Overall, I reckon we can knock >£1000 off what we would have been paying if we'd carried on at last year's usage, just by thinking a bit more about usage.
I definitely recommend that app. Been a life changer for us.
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Something worth trying.
Back in August I downloaded the Loop energy use tracking app. It checks your smart meter readings regularly and charts your usage.
It's been a revolution Chez Stubbs-Tears.
We had got very lazy and profligate with energy usage. But it's been amazing what you can save.
Electric. Just turning lights off, using the oven less often & slow/pressure cooker more, and turning stuff off at the wall has dropped our average electric usage from 12kWh per day to 8kWh. That'll save £500 in a year.
Gas is even starker. We've turned down the temperature of the hot water on the boiler. We're taking shorter showers. Not running hot water unless it is absolutely necessary, and we've realised that we don't need the central heating on unless it gets really cold.
Last year, from 1 Sept to 3 Oct we used 450 kWh of gas. This year we've used 90kWh. I reckon the savings will be even bigger when the colder weather comes and we are more careful about thermostat settings and which rooms we heat when. Overall, I reckon we can knock >£1000 off what we would have been paying if we'd carried on at last year's usage, just by thinking a bit more about usage.
I definitely recommend that app. Been a life changer for us.
We have been doing most of that sort of stuff for a few months now and it really does make savings.
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Something worth trying.
Back in August I downloaded the Loop energy use tracking app. It checks your smart meter readings regularly and charts your usage.
It's been a revolution Chez Stubbs-Tears.
We had got very lazy and profligate with energy usage. But it's been amazing what you can save.
Electric. Just turning lights off, using the oven less often & slow/pressure cooker more, and turning stuff off at the wall has dropped our average electric usage from 12kWh per day to 8kWh. That'll save £500 in a year.
Gas is even starker. We've turned down the temperature of the hot water on the boiler. We're taking shorter showers. Not running hot water unless it is absolutely necessary, and we've realised that we don't need the central heating on unless it gets really cold.
Last year, from 1 Sept to 3 Oct we used 450 kWh of gas. This year we've used 90kWh. I reckon the savings will be even bigger when the colder weather comes and we are more careful about thermostat settings and which rooms we heat when. Overall, I reckon we can knock >£1000 off what we would have been paying if we'd carried on at last year's usage, just by thinking a bit more about usage.
I definitely recommend that app. Been a life changer for us.
I’m confused, is Loop an energy supplier?
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One tip that hasn’t been mentioned is to not automatically iron all your washing.
I have t shirts and jeans that I only wear for walking, or in the garden, so those are ripped from Mrs Mug’s hands and put straight in the drawer.
I’ve also managed to get her to stop ironing bedding, which will probably cost more in psychiatric counselling than it will save in electricity though.
And just to clarify, this is not a sexist house, she just LOVES ironing. Plus, my ironing is rubbish and not up to her standards. When she was a nurse, her dream was to quit and become a professional laundress.
In fact she loves anything to do with laundry. She says the sight of a line of white laundry on a sunny day, gives her more pleasure than sex with me.
I’d have been a bit less upset if she’d left the ‘with me’ bit off the end of her sentence.
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My wife finds any excuse to use the tumble dryer, I’ve threatened to cut the plug off of it
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Something worth trying.
Back in August I downloaded the Loop energy use tracking app. It checks your smart meter readings regularly and charts your usage.
It's been a revolution Chez Stubbs-Tears.
We had got very lazy and profligate with energy usage. But it's been amazing what you can save.
Electric. Just turning lights off, using the oven less often & slow/pressure cooker more, and turning stuff off at the wall has dropped our average electric usage from 12kWh per day to 8kWh. That'll save £500 in a year.
Gas is even starker. We've turned down the temperature of the hot water on the boiler. We're taking shorter showers. Not running hot water unless it is absolutely necessary, and we've realised that we don't need the central heating on unless it gets really cold.
Last year, from 1 Sept to 3 Oct we used 450 kWh of gas. This year we've used 90kWh. I reckon the savings will be even bigger when the colder weather comes and we are more careful about thermostat settings and which rooms we heat when. Overall, I reckon we can knock >£1000 off what we would have been paying if we'd carried on at last year's usage, just by thinking a bit more about usage.
I definitely recommend that app. Been a life changer for us.
I’m confused, is Loop an energy supplier?
No. It's a company that make energy tracking devices and have a free app that anyone with a smart meter can use. I started using it because the smart meter monitor that we were given by British Gas physically fell apart within a month and we had no way of regularly monitoring our use. I can't recommend the Loop App highly enough. It's saving us hundreds of pounds.
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I've just learned that I am too efficient for my own good. Ovo tell me I'm not eligible for this £2500 cap because the deal I got for myself a few months back is already at a price that, according to their clever metric, will come out at less than £2500. Oh joy. Being proactive doesn't pay doesn't it?!
BobG
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Bob. What tariffs are you signed up to? If it's more than 10.5p/kWh for gas and 34p for electricity, you're being cheated. If it's less, you're fine.
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Thank you Billy
I've got Economy 7 so my units etc are based on the logic of that.
Electricity:
Peak unit rate
28.26p per Kilowatt hourkWh
Off-peak unit rate
19.73p per Kilowatt hourkWh
Standing charge
23.88p a day
Gas:
Unit rate
6.43p per Kilowatt hourkWh
Standing charge
24.88p a day
Both deals only run until 23rd January 2023 though, Which, of course, begs the question of would I suddenly become eligible for the cap once I have to move ionto a much higher rate? I have failed to find any answer to that one so far!
Lol. Ovo reckon I will use 10,980 KwH of leccy in the next 12 months and 3,592 of gas. The leccy is possible. The gas is stupid. I burn logs.
BobG
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Bob.
Those rates are all WAY lower than the current cap. My understanding is that in Jan, you'll automatically be moved onto the capped rates (roughly 35p/kWh for standard electric, 26p/kWh for E7 electric and 10.5p/kWh for gas, with standing charge being 45-50p per day for each of gas and electric (so ~£1 per day total standing charge).
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https://news.sky.com/story/energy-crisis-plan-for-three-hour-power-blackouts-to-prioritise-heating-in-event-of-gas-shortages-12713253
Blackouts upcoming.
I can see 2 positives:-
1) Power cuts will reduce your energy bills.
2) We can all make a fortune by investing BIG in Tallow manufacturers asap!
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Have I missed the bit where the Govt has been talking to the nation about the need to massively cut down gas and electric usage this winter?
I mean, I'm sure they MUST have done, but I'm buggered if I've seen it.
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Thank you Billy. And to think that a few months ago I thought those rates I am paying today were extortionate! Plus ca change....
Bob
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Have I missed the bit where the Govt has been talking to the nation about the need to massively cut down gas and electric usage this winter?
I mean, I'm sure they MUST have done, but I'm buggered if I've seen it.
If a windfall tax had been placed to lower bills, that would have driven usage up. Can’t have it both ways.
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I think I've said before that it's quite common in industry to ration usage in winter months. The big users essentially get huge fines for excessive use so cut down (I even used to have to sit in the dark at my desk).
Seems sensible a lot of it and common sense. Like charging my car it's the most energy I use and I can schedule it to charge overnight so that seems the sensible thing to do.
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Have I missed the bit where the Govt has been talking to the nation about the need to massively cut down gas and electric usage this winter?
I mean, I'm sure they MUST have done, but I'm buggered if I've seen it.
If a windfall tax had been placed to lower bills, that would have driven usage up. Can’t have it both ways.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
The level that the price cap is set at is a matter of Govt choice. Govt has chosen to set that, effectively to pay BP and Shell directly at the rates determined by Putin's war, and to cover that by Govt borrowing (which is now going to be used to justify an attempt to screw down other Govt spending.
The windfall tax would have been a way of paying for some of the cap costs without borrowing. But there's no link whatsoever between a cap and a windfall tax.
For what it's worth, this is the way I'd have dealt with the situation.
1) Don't cap anything. Let electric go to 70p/kWh and gas to 20p if that's what the market says. At those prices, people would have been massively incentivised to cut back.
2) Subsidise consumers by a) increasing UC massively for the poorest, and b) very big tax cuts targeted at the lower paid. Maybe 10p off VAT.
3) Then impose a windfall tax on BP and Shell, to recoup most of the excess that customers would be paying them.
That seems to me to do the three things you want to come out of this
a) reduce consumption
b) protect consumers with more protection going to the poorest.
c) Stop BP and Shell making obscene profits they have done absolutely nothing to earn
d) minimise Govt borrowing.
What Truss has done means:
a) Some incentive to economise, but much, much less than the alternative(*)
b) protection if consumers with the biggest subsidies going to the richest.
c) Allowing BP and Shell to pocket their Putin Profits.
d)Maximising Govt borrowing.
(*) An example. At 60-70p/kWh for electric, it's a no brainer for anyone who can afford it to get solar panels installed.The payback would be 6-7 years and the effect would be to reduce your grid consumption by 70-80%. Win-win.
At 35p/kWh, the payback period is 13-14 years. It just about makes economic sense, but it's a finely balanced decision.
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The overarching issue is separating electricity prices from gas prices under the present marginal pricing structure.
Then allow a new market based upon renewables (not nuclear) to develop independent of the declining fossil fuel energy economy.
Unit cost for production and consumption would lead to widespread electrification at pace.
No-one can suggest a way forward without dealing with these issues as a first step.
Propping up a failing market in the naive belief that it will not continue to fail is ostrich like deliberate misunderstanding.
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Not sure where that 13-14 year payback based on current pricing comes from BST,
I've just had solar fitted on an east/west split system (so sub-optimal in terms of how much it generates for the initial outlay), I also didn't use one of the cheapest companies, and the pay back calculations for me are 8-9 years based on assumptions of using 70% of what I generate, from a starting price of 27p per kWh (as it was before the October lift) with an assumed energy inflation of 8% per year.
What proportion I utilise is hugely dependant on my behaviours and we've already had 22% inflation of energy since those calculations.
I don't disagree with anything else you've said, I just don't think that's a fair figure to use when talking about whether there's an incentive because it seems way off the mark.
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I've had a quote for a 4kW system and a big battery. Given the predicted output, it would have paid back in 8 years at 50p/kWh electric cost. At 35p it will be more like 13 years. It's impossible to say what the future cost will be, and I guess the payback will be shorter if electric prices go up, but that's all guesswork. If they do continue to rise, it's going to be a bloody tough decade. We'd be in a far better position now if the subsidies for domestic solar hadn't been stopped because of Austerity. We could have had panels on every suitable house in the country for not much more than the Govt is spending on the cap. Hey ho. Maybe we'll learn one day.
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Have I missed the bit where the Govt has been talking to the nation about the need to massively cut down gas and electric usage this winter?
I mean, I'm sure they MUST have done, but I'm buggered if I've seen it.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1578135758040403971
What in the name of holy f**k is this about?
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gambling
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Yet again, yet again, we have a f**king Tory government favouring ideology over common sense, over the welfare of its citizen and over geopolitical strategy. Morons. f**king morons.
BobG
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UK natural gas futures down to 289 today - according to the BBC. That's expensive by recent historical standards but a chuff of a lot less than the 708 it reached a month ago. Why, why is absolutely no news outlet, no current affairs organ, commenting on this fact? I am becoming deeply, deeply suspicious...
BobG
Later: still dropping. Now 284.
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Bob, there are other issues that the MSM are not commenting on:
See albies post tonight on The Labour Files thread.
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You can see the market movements in gas prices here, Bob;
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/uk-natural-gas
As you can see, a very volatile situation....with the UK at greater exposure due to a lack of adequate storage capacity. On the other hand, the UK can move to electrify quickly with the political will.
Incredibly, the UK is still allowing 2/3 of new build to connect to gas grid for heating....just insane when heat pumps are available.
This should be a media scandal, but again we live in a highly curated media environment.
No-one should rely on media coverage as an indicator of importance on any subject.
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Well this makes me feel confident that there'll be no problems this winter.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1579041334983331841
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Well this makes me feel confident that there'll be no problems this winter.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1579041334983331841
Zahawi says that Truss has killed the planned public information campaign on how to cut back on energy usage because of the cost £15million.
That is about 0.01% of what we as a country will spend on domestic gas an electricity over the next 12 months. So if helped us cut 1/10,000th of our usage, it would pay for itself.
But I'm sure Zahawi is telling the truth, and the Govt, unlike every other one in Western Europe, is right not to encourage us to reduce usage. I'm sure it's got nothing to do with us having a PM who is an unhinged libertarian who once read Atlas Unchained.
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NB:
What would we have to do to save £15m off our energy usage this year?
At the cost that electricity is likely to hit on the uncapped market this winter, if every house in the country turned off 1 10W light bulb for 16 minutes a day, that would do it. But I'm sure Zahawi and Truss are right that we shouldn't be wasting money informing people of this.
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The worst thing about that interview is the softball approach of LK to blatant misinformation.
Zahawi twice says that the buffer is the same as last year. This is completely untrue.
Aside from the reserves being much lower in the UK than in most European countries, the ability to add further supplies in mid winter is reduced.
I understand why Zahawi is minimising the issue, but the lack of research behind LK and the easy escape given to misinformation by the BBC is appalling.
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What do you expect from Kuenssberg?
Intellectually lightweight. Totally disinterested in solid background research. She made her name through having key Downing St staff on speed dial so she could get "exclusives" on whatever line the Govt wanted to push.
She's as vacuous and content free as the worst of the politicians she interviews.
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But on topic again, this is feeling like Jan 2020 all over again.
A Govt that refuses to inform people about what they can do to minimise the worst of the coming crisis.
Senior politicians telling us everything is under control, while simply hoping that the worst doesn't happen.
If the worst does happen, like in March 2020, we'll be back in full on crisis mode.
Again.
Grown up Government tries to avoid the worst happening by taking sensible mitigation measures. Not by wheeling out a gobshite like Zahawi to lie that everything is fine.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/AFK103/status/1602980624662396928
This really ought to be headline news.
TL:dr.
When you account for the warm weather we had this Autumn, we in the UK have not cut our gas usage, despite the prices going through the roof. You might recall that PM Truss (I know! Mad wasn't it?) blocked a planned advertising campaign by the Govt to encourage people to economise. Because that wasn't what Govt should do.
Meanwhile, in Germany, where they have had a massive Govt information campaign, their usage allowing for the weather is down 20%.
What does that mean? By failing to economise, we as a country are on target to spend £10bn more on gas over 12 months than we would have done if we'd followed Germany's lead.
There are times when you really have to wonder if some of our recent PMs have been active enemy agents.
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We used less this November compared to last November and still ended up paying £366. That's triple what we were paying.
Crazy because my wife was off work November 21 with a severed thumb so the heating and TV were on quite a lot.
I've got the burner on at the moment but the coal is shit, it's currently 14.1 degrees in the dining room where the burner is.
I'm dreading December and January bills.
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My gas bill for November was £96.38, last November we used 1025kWh, this November we used 857kWh, we achieved that by turning the thermostat down and turning the boiler flow rate down
Electricity bill for November was £133.10, last November we used 459kWh, this November we used 358kWh, we achieved that by cutting back on tumble dryer use and buying a dehumidifyer to help dry clothes, in the spare bedroom
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We've cut use to the bone. The house is freezing, but we're doing the "heat the person, not the space" thing. Invested in massive quilts, leccy blankets and heated shawls. It's working. Not comfortable but for Nov, our gas and leccy bill was £210.
Edit: Just checked. If we'd used the same amount we did in Nov 21, with the current rates, our November bill this year would have been £540!
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The problem with freezing houses is the inevitable occurrence of burst water pipes.
We'll be clapping our country's overworked plumbers once a week while they hold us to ransom over the cost of an emergency call-out!
What will be a nightmare for us will be a pipe dream for them! :ohmy:
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"Freezing" is a turn of phrase. Obviously we're not living in a house with sub-zero temperatures. But we've set the thermostat to a maximum of 17C, and only that in a few rooms and for limited times. A lot of the time, most rooms are 12-14C. It's cold, but if you stick another jumper and a second pair of socks on and it's not that bad.
There's the added satisfaction of proving wrong that Kitson in the Kremlin who assumed we were all to soft to cope with a bit of cold and we'd give in as soon as the frosts came.
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The 3rd coldest start to a December in 100 years couldn’t have been timed worse.
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Forecast to get a lot milder next week. And it was one of the warmest Autumns on record. Swings and roundabouts.
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We used less this November compared to last November and still ended up paying £366. That's triple what we were paying.
Crazy because my wife was off work November 21 with a severed thumb so the heating and TV were on quite a lot.
I've got the burner on at the moment but the coal is shit, it's currently 14.1 degrees in the dining room where the burner is.
I'm dreading December and January bills.
Something's not right there.
The unit prices haven't tripled this year. So if you're using less than you were last year, there's no way your bill should have tripled. And that's before you take the £66/month rebate off your bill.
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We used less this November compared to last November and still ended up paying £366. That's triple what we were paying.
Crazy because my wife was off work November 21 with a severed thumb so the heating and TV were on quite a lot.
I've got the burner on at the moment but the coal is shit, it's currently 14.1 degrees in the dining room where the burner is.
I'm dreading December and January bills.
Something's not right there.
The unit prices haven't tripled this year. So if you're using less than you were last year, there's no way your bill should have tripled. And that's before you take the £66/month rebate off your bill.
Yep, I don't get it. I even did a tightness test on my gas meter and pipework to see if I had any leaks but it's sound.
Or are you suggesting I'm lying again? I can't tell nowadays
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If you are using less gas than previously a leak wouldn't appear to be the answer nudga.
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If you are using less gas than previously a leak wouldn't appear to be the answer nudga.
Got to rule everything out, there could be a mistake on their end with meter readings and the monthly usage charts.
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We used less this November compared to last November and still ended up paying £366. That's triple what we were paying.
Crazy because my wife was off work November 21 with a severed thumb so the heating and TV were on quite a lot.
I've got the burner on at the moment but the coal is shit, it's currently 14.1 degrees in the dining room where the burner is.
I'm dreading December and January bills.
Something's not right there.
The unit prices haven't tripled this year. So if you're using less than you were last year, there's no way your bill should have tripled. And that's before you take the £66/month rebate off your bill.
Yep, I don't get it. I even did a tightness test on my gas meter and pipework to see if I had any leaks but it's sound.
Or are you suggesting I'm lying again? I can't tell nowadays
I'm saying something doesn't add up.
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If you are using less gas than previously a leak wouldn't appear to be the answer nudga.
Got to rule everything out, there could be a mistake on their end with meter readings and the monthly usage charts.
The monthly usage charts I get from the Eon app(Eon is my supplier) are f**king useless. They always underestimate the actual gas an electric I've used.
Currently, the Eon app is saying I've used 782kWh of gas in December. But the Loop app says I've actually used 1571kWh (which I know to be correct because I've checked my meter).
Maybe that's the issue Nudga - if you're relying on usage data from your supplier on an app and their data is wrong. In my experience, Eon always get the numbers right on the bill. But their all is hopeless. Which, in the current circumstances, when people need as much guidance as possible on their day to day usage, is bordering on fraud by misleading people to think that they are using much less than they are.
Like I've said before, the Loop app is the dog's b*llocks for this data. It does what the Eon app should be doing - accurately checks the smart meter output every couple of hours and tells me what our usage so far each day/week/month is. It's exactly the reminder you need to pop round the house turning the lights off and turning down the thermostatic valves in empty rooms. Saved us hundreds of pounds already in 3-4 months.
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By the way Nudga, to the best of my memory, I've never once called you a liar. That's a pretty serious thing to call anyone and I would never do it without cast iron certainty. I've never had any evidence that you've lied about anything.
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Finally.
https://mobile.twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1604008432603897856
Better inexplicably 4 months late than never.
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Finally.
https://mobile.twitter.com/grantshapps/status/1604008432603897856
Better inexplicably 4 months late than never.
These are things people are already doing though?
Why not re-nationalize all of the energy companies?
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We used less this November compared to last November and still ended up paying £366. That's triple what we were paying.
Crazy because my wife was off work November 21 with a severed thumb so the heating and TV were on quite a lot.
I've got the burner on at the moment but the coal is shit, it's currently 14.1 degrees in the dining room where the burner is.
I'm dreading December and January bills.
Something's not right there.
The unit prices haven't tripled this year. So if you're using less than you were last year, there's no way your bill should have tripled. And that's before you take the £66/month rebate off your bill.
Mine have more than tripled, was on a very cheap fix, could be the same.
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You were doing well then BFYP.
Up until October, I was on the best fix I could find.
Gas 3.6p/kWh
Electric 18.3p/kWh
The current rates are
Gas 10.2p/kWh
Electric 33p/kWh
So my gas has gone up by 2.77x and electric by 1.80x.
I had clearly f**ked up badly last year if there were deals around that had electric at 11p/kWh.
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I’m still on the low rate that bst mentions above, fixed until July next year.
I understand that the coming April increase will take electricity up to around 50p per kWh so it will almost treble then.
I had solar fitted seven weeks ago so I am hoping that will offset a big proportion of the price increase.
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You had Solar fitted! What about your house Hound :-]]
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You were doing well then BFYP.
Up until October, I was on the best fix I could find.
Gas 3.6p/kWh
Electric 18.3p/kWh
The current rates are
Gas 10.2p/kWh
Electric 33p/kWh
So my gas has gone up by 2.77x and electric by 1.80x.
I had clearly f**ked up badly last year if there were deals around that had electric at 11p/kWh.
BST my deal ended last February,know matter how hard I tried I could not get any sort of deal,I now have my heating on an hour a day but I do light my log burner at 5pm each day to keep the cost down with the governments £66 a month my bills are £30 cheaper then before
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So Putin bet the house on Europe not being able to cope with him cutting off gas supplies.
Increasingly looking like a disastrous strategic mistake. He's lost his biggest gas market. Forever. Meanwhile, gas prices are collapsing, partly because the winter has been very mild, but also because people across Europe have risen to the challenge and massively reduced their gas usage.
The long term price of gas on international markets is now down 80% on what it was during the panic of last summer. It's still high by historic standards, but it's now much lower than it has been at any time since Putin started his war.
A stupid, historic mistake, by a low grade thug who has exposed himself to the world as a total failure.
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So Putin bet the house on Europe not being able to cope with him cutting off gas supplies.
Increasingly looking like a disastrous strategic mistake. He's lost his biggest gas market. Forever. Meanwhile, gas prices are collapsing, partly because the winter has been very mild, but also because people across Europe have risen to the challenge and massively reduced their gas usage.
The long term price of gas on international markets is now down 80% on what it was during the panic of last summer. It's still high by historic standards, but it's now much lower than it has been at any time since Putin started his war.
A stupid, historic mistake, by a low grade thug who has exposed himself to the world as a total failure.
Our Gas bills still remain high though, we are being ripped off
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In one sense we are not being ripped off. Our gas bills are still below what they would be at global market rates.
Where we undoubtedly ARE being ripped off is in the sense that BP etc are making obscene amounts of money from the fact that the global gas price is so high. They haven't done anything magical in their extraction process to justify getting 3 times the price for gas that they were getting 18 months ago. They are just benefiting from Putin's economic warfare on the West which has pushed up the gas price.
That is an obscenity. Remember it when the Tories tell you they have to increase taxes on ordinary people, or cut spending on public services again, because we spent so much public money on the gas price cap. That money went straight into BP's bank account. And we could choose to tax it back off them if we wanted to.
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Long term gas price still coming down very quickly. Now much lower than at the time of Putin's invasion. Back at the level it was in summer 2021.
I'm naively assuming this means domestic gas and electric costs should, later this year, be back down to the levels they were at 18 months ago?
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Long term gas price still coming down very quickly. Now much lower than at the time of Putin's invasion. Back at the level it was in summer 2021.
I'm naively assuming this means domestic gas and electric costs should, later this year, be back down to the levels they were at 18 months ago?
We’ve seen with Petrol prices, they don’t come down very much, rip of Britain
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Petrol now 1.47 a litre locally.
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Long term gas price still coming down very quickly. Now much lower than at the time of Putin's invasion. Back at the level it was in summer 2021.
I'm naively assuming this means domestic gas and electric costs should, later this year, be back down to the levels they were at 18 months ago?
Logically you would expect the prices to the public to come down, as you say.
However we have seen many times over the years that prices don’t come down as quickly as they went up.
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Petrol now 1.47 a litre locally.
Still much higher than where they were, and don’t forget when the Govt stop the 5p reduction in fuel tax the price will shoot up within seconds, probably by more than 5p
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Petrol now 1.47 a litre locally.
Is that supermarket prices?
Best at local petrol stations round here that I've seen is £1.69.9
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Petrol now 1.47 a litre locally.
Is that supermarket prices?
Best at local petrol stations round here that I've seen is £1.69.9
Raven, what area are you talking about with petrol at that price.
In Donny area £1.47 per litre for petrol is fairly commonplace and diesel is around £1.67 to £1.68.
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Petrol at Morrisons Bradford was £144.9 yesterday.
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Petrol now 1.47 a litre locally.
Is that supermarket prices?
Best at local petrol stations round here that I've seen is £1.69.9
Raven, what area are you talking about with petrol at that price.
In Donny area £1.47 per litre for petrol is fairly commonplace and diesel is around £1.67 to £1.68.
My mistake I equated fuel prices to diesel
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£1.89 for premium diesel near me. I find it's not cost effective putting the cheap stuff in my tank.
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https://twitter.com/martinslewis/status/1613189073929383937?s=46&t=ARotTeR08AfiFZI0tj01qA
Why did we do away with gas storage? Centrica said that it was no longer financially feasible. But is there more to it? Could green / net-zero targets come in to play here? The government could have subsidised it, no?
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https://twitter.com/martinslewis/status/1613189073929383937?s=46&t=ARotTeR08AfiFZI0tj01qA
Why did we do away with gas storage? Centrica said that it was no longer financially feasible. But is there more to it? Could green / net-zero targets come in to play here? The government could have subsidised it, no?
In 2017 - what was the net-zero target then? We have a higher one now and they have re-opened it.
It was penny-pinching governments and greedy capitalist energy companies (the two are connected if you research the ministers who have interests in the same enegy companies) trying to use 'just in time' systems that put the country's energy supply at risk - however much you try and deflect from it:
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/politics/liz-truss-blamed-for-closure-of-north-sea-gas-storage-before-energy-crisis-3810007
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk-gas-storage-facilities-shortages-energy-price-rises-rough-1441830
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/11/mps-and-the-oil-industry-who-gave-what-to-whom
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/25/tories-received-13m-from-fossil-fuel-interests-and-climate-sceptics-since-2019
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/43-lords-have-financial-interests-in-fossil-fuel-industry/
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1 word
Renationalisation
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1 word
Renationalisation
Watch the Martin Lewis video. The government is practically paying everybody’s energy bills rich and poor at present.
Nationalisation won’t change the price of gas any more.
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Petrol now 1.47 a litre locally.
Is that supermarket prices?
Best at local petrol stations round here that I've seen is £1.69.9
Local Tesco and jet garage on the A17 east Heckington. Morrisons at Skegness too.
And the gulf garage on Boston rd horncastle is now 1.41.
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Checked petrol prices £1.47.9 best I've seen round here
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Sainsburys and Tesco at Edenthorpe are both £1.419 per litre.
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Checked petrol prices £1.47.9 best I've seen round here
I quickly pointed out to someone I was in the car with saying oh isn't that such a good price but then forgetting that it used to be like £1.15 a litre or something a year ago and realizing we are all still getting ripped off
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Ofgem now suggesting that gas prices need not rise as much as forecast in April;
https://www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/price-cap-could-fall-below-ps3-000-from-april-ofgem-boss-says-b1054952.html
Now here's a thought.....as wholesale costs have reduced very substantially from the previous peak, how about reducing prices immediately, not in April.
The point is that the utilities are being allowed to continue making excess profits for the rest of the winter, when there is no justification whatsoever.
Don't hold your breathe for sense to break out!
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1 word
Renationalisation
Watch the Martin Lewis video. The government is practically paying everybody’s energy bills rich and poor at present.
Nationalisation won’t change the price of gas any more.
If the UK owned it's own energy company of course they could lower prices for UK households. It's exactly what the French government did with EDF: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jan/14/france-edf-cap-household-energy-bills
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Unite published research showing the eye watering figures the energy utilities are taking out of the economy;
https://www.unitetheunion.org/media/4920/uniteinvestigates-energysectorprofiteering.pdf
Taking these utilities in house would be a big step forwards in creating an energy sector fit for purpose in reducing fuel poverty while moving towards a decarbonised future.
Yet still we support these parasitic organisations with the means to extract from public funds....unbelievable!
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I am with Shell energy, they claim to be 100% renewable, why is it my energy bills are that high if that is so?
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Filo,
The Unite report talks about Shell;
"These profits are being passed on to shareholders in huge dividends and share buybacks.
Shell intends to spend an astonishing £6.3 billion on share buybacks for its shareholders in 2022."
There you have it.
Don't forget this report was from August 2022, before the escalation in prices over the winter heating season.
Public ownership, because you can't tame a wild beast.
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Filo,
The Unite report talks about Shell;
"These profits are being passed on to shareholders in huge dividends and share buybacks.
Shell intends to spend an astonishing £6.3 billion on share buybacks for its shareholders in 2022."
There you have it.
Don't forget this report was from August 2022, before the escalation in prices over the winter heating season.
Public ownership, because you can't tame a wild beast.
I agree, I’ve always said utilities should be public owned run for the public not profit for shareholders
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Ofgem now suggesting that gas prices need not rise as much as forecast in April;
https://www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/price-cap-could-fall-below-ps3-000-from-april-ofgem-boss-says-b1054952.html
Now here's a thought.....as wholesale costs have reduced very substantially from the previous peak, how about reducing prices immediately, not in April.
The point is that the utilities are being allowed to continue making excess profits for the rest of the winter, when there is no justification whatsoever.
Don't hold your breathe for sense to break out!
Isn’t that because the gas they have now to supply was bought at the higher price? Therefore there will be a lag between wholesale cost and consumer cost.
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Ofgem now suggesting that gas prices need not rise as much as forecast in April;
https://www.standard.co.uk/business/business-news/price-cap-could-fall-below-ps3-000-from-april-ofgem-boss-says-b1054952.html
Now here's a thought.....as wholesale costs have reduced very substantially from the previous peak, how about reducing prices immediately, not in April.
The point is that the utilities are being allowed to continue making excess profits for the rest of the winter, when there is no justification whatsoever.
Don't hold your breathe for sense to break out!
Isn’t that because the gas they have now to supply was bought at the higher price? Therefore there will be a lag between wholesale cost and consumer cost.
But that hasn't stoped them charging higher prices for the gas they bought cheaply last year.
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Prices always come down more slowly than they go up.
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They do, Hound.
Which is because Ofgem are more concerned with the industry than with protecting consumer interests....exactly the opposite of what they should be doing!
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Filo,
The Unite report talks about Shell;
"These profits are being passed on to shareholders in huge dividends and share buybacks.
Shell intends to spend an astonishing £6.3 billion on share buybacks for its shareholders in 2022."
There you have it.
Don't forget this report was from August 2022, before the escalation in prices over the winter heating season.
Public ownership, because you can't tame a wild beast.
I agree, I’ve always said utilities should be public owned run for the public not profit for shareholders
And yet Filo the Labour party who's manifesto should contain statements like this will not touch this with a bargepole.
I'm surprised that people aren't waking up more to the fact why they're constantly taken for a ride by both sides of the political devide just now.
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What would you do with the energy companies about massive profits and high prices DD?
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Filo,
The Unite report talks about Shell;
"These profits are being passed on to shareholders in huge dividends and share buybacks.
Shell intends to spend an astonishing £6.3 billion on share buybacks for its shareholders in 2022."
There you have it.
Don't forget this report was from August 2022, before the escalation in prices over the winter heating season.
Public ownership, because you can't tame a wild beast.
I agree, I’ve always said utilities should be public owned run for the public not profit for shareholders
And yet Filo the Labour party who's manifesto should contain statements like this will not touch this with a bargepole.
I'm surprised that people aren't waking up more to the fact why they're constantly taken for a ride by both sides of the political devide just now.
Labour's policy is to start a new, publicly owned energy company, aimed at being the size of EDF. We have to move to zero carbon energy. Labour's plan is for that market to be dominated by the new publicly owned company.
Meanwhile, they would retrospectively impose windfall taxes on the massive profits that the likes of BP have made from Putin's efforts.
You are wanting to convince yourself that both sides are the same. They clearly aren't.
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Labour was in power between 1997 to 2010 and managed to ensure that the energy sector that should of been reconstituted then was left to continue in this very form, so why was that the case? The opportunity was there but not the political will.
So is it right for them to sit back now and criticise a system that they could of "improved" so that today we didn't have this mess?
Why does it always seem like carping from the sidelines is preferable to action?
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It would appear to your logic anyway that the party you voted for has been remiss also dd, no?
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Labour was in power between 1997 to 2010 and managed to ensure that the energy sector that should of been reconstituted then was left to continue in this very form, so why was that the case? The opportunity was there but not the political will.
So is it right for them to sit back now and criticise a system that they could of "improved" so that today we didn't have this mess?
Why does it always seem like carping from the sidelines is preferable to action?
Hindsight.
Where was the great public pressure for nationalisation in the 00s?
Labour stood on manifestos calling for Govt intervention in the economy in 2017 and 2019. Did you vote for them?
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So instead of skirting around the issue and castigating the class bully who's already standing in the corridor on his own why don;t you explain to me exactly why Labour when in opposition say one thing but then in power do exactly the opposite?
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Give me an idea how you make up your mind where to put your mark on the ballot paper if you think all pollies are in it for themselves dd?
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Labour was in power between 1997 to 2010 and managed to ensure that the energy sector that should of been reconstituted then was left to continue in this very form, so why was that the case? The opportunity was there but not the political will.
So is it right for them to sit back now and criticise a system that they could of "improved" so that today we didn't have this mess?
Why does it always seem like carping from the sidelines is preferable to action?
Hindsight.
Where was the great public pressure for nationalisation in the 00s?
Labour stood on manifestos calling for Govt intervention in the economy in 2017 and 2019. Did you vote for them?
The point i'm trying to make is that its very easy to say that THIS time we will do this, but unfortunately being in power means we do something else instead. There will always be another greater requirement that stops this "transformative action" taking place.
I can see why people would be very hesitant to support a party whose natural instinct should be to do this but will they?
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Have you admonished the party you voted for dd?
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Labour was in power between 1997 to 2010 and managed to ensure that the energy sector that should of been reconstituted then was left to continue in this very form, so why was that the case? The opportunity was there but not the political will.
So is it right for them to sit back now and criticise a system that they could of "improved" so that today we didn't have this mess?
Why does it always seem like carping from the sidelines is preferable to action?
Hindsight.
Where was the great public pressure for nationalisation in the 00s?
Labour stood on manifestos calling for Govt intervention in the economy in 2017 and 2019. Did you vote for them?
As far back as i can remember there has been a debate about future energy requirements. Labour and Green activists have been talking about climate warming/change for as long as anyone would listen to them. To say its now hindsight just makes it look like a greater failing on all political parties to not have the foresight to plan ahead.
It seems they all have the same short term mentality when it comes to proposing these projects who by their very nature require more than a couple of political terms to come to fruition.
It seems Labour are as guilty as the Tories in not having the political foresight to bring these transformative policies to light.
Shame.
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And yet you have no plan yourself and you don't trust the very people you would charge with fixing the problem dd, it must be very frustrating for you.
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Labour was in power between 1997 to 2010 and managed to ensure that the energy sector that should of been reconstituted then was left to continue in this very form, so why was that the case? The opportunity was there but not the political will.
So is it right for them to sit back now and criticise a system that they could of "improved" so that today we didn't have this mess?
Why does it always seem like carping from the sidelines is preferable to action?
Hindsight.
Where was the great public pressure for nationalisation in the 00s?
Labour stood on manifestos calling for Govt intervention in the economy in 2017 and 2019. Did you vote for them?
As far back as i can remember there has been a debate about future energy requirements. Labour and Green activists have been talking about climate warming/change for as long as anyone would listen to them. To say its now hindsight just makes it look like a greater failing on all political parties to not have the foresight to plan ahead.
It seems they all have the same short term mentality when it comes to proposing these projects who by their very nature require more than a couple of political terms to come to fruition.
It seems Labour are as guilty as the Tories in not having the political foresight to bring these transformative policies to light.
Shame.
Do you remember what Labour was doing when last in office? Massive subsidies to green power. Massive Govt help on insulating old houses. All designed to greatly cut our reliance on fossil fuel and the giant companies that profit from it.
You remember what the Tories did when they came to power? Slashed all those subsidies.
Or do you just stick to the premise that both sides are the same?
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BST,
Your post 798 is misleading, and does not make clear what is on offer.
The Labour policy of setting up Great British Energy is a Trojan horse for transferring public funds to the unbankable nuclear industry.
GBE will not be a retail supplier to consumers. It is simply an investment vehicle for preferred projects which do not attract private sector funding.
https://labourlist.org/2022/09/great-british-energy-falls-far-short-of-what-the-public-and-the-planet-need/
Labour are simply rebranding the Tory "Great British Nuclear" flagship.
Because nuclear is a discredited rising cost sector, it can only secure funding via state support, as no private investors are interested.
Under the UK’s new ‘Regulated Asset Base’ financing system- consumers are hit with a surcharge before the plant is built.
The unquantifiable costs of decommissioning remain on the public accounts, deferred to the future.
The idea is to charge consumers twice...first to support the infrastructure development, then to pay higher electricity costs to meet the returns needed to justify the project.
This falls heavily on the low income groups, as a much higher proportion of their income goes to energy costs.
It is a highly regressive policy in terms of fuel poverty.
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If you ever needed a further reason to see why energy utilities should be in public hands, here it is:
https://www.ft.com/content/0ebf0cf1-af77-4670-90d6-ec060fd94f66
Centrica (British Gas) and the government dancing with each other over subsidy (ie bribes) to do what is clearly necessary and increase storage capacity.
So next winter the UK will rely on more expensive LPG imports, and fuel poverty will continue into the future.
This is the system both the blue tories and the red tories think is fit for purpose, and which they are keen to retain.
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Get your Far Left 2024 Election Bingo Cards ready folks.
"Red Tories" is a dead cert to be called out regularly.
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Nothing to say to the issue, BST?
Just the usual bleats and slurs, surprised you did not mention Corbyn, as you have an unhealthy obsession with the former Labour leader.
Now, from the point of view of an extreme centrist, tell us how this fiasco is going to be sorted without public ownership, which Keith and Reeves have sidelined?
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Albie
There's simply no point discussing anything with someone who lazily uses the term "Red Tory" and refuses to accept that it was precisely that mindset that gave us the Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss, Sunak Govts and the resulting horrific energy policy of the last 13 years.
Take some responsibility for what your idle insults lead to, then may e we can talk.
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OK, BST.
You have no answer to the issue because you know Keith and Reeves are ski-ing off piste, but you are too loyal to team Keith and neoliberal ideas to admit it.
I am sorry if you think Red Tory is not accurate, but I think it is.
Blue Labour is an option, does the cap fit?
Keithism has nothing to say on structural reform, where problems created by previous mistakes require major intervention.
The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed.
The type of thinking that led to the defeat in 2010 was actually moving into the space dominated by Tory ideas.
The "energy policy of the last 13 years" suggests you think the current situation is only a Tory creation....in actual fact New Labour were supportive of the privatisation of key utilities, and did nothing to correct the situation when in power.
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The New Labour that you despise were actually in power and able, for example, to get green energy up and running, before Osborne throttled it.
You don't see a difference between New Labour and what came after it. Which makes any discussion pointless.
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OK, BST.
You have no answer to the issue because you know Keith and Reeves are ski-ing off piste, but you are too loyal to team Keith and neoliberal ideas to admit it.
I am sorry if you think Red Tory is not accurate, but I think it is.
Blue Labour is an option, does the cap fit?
Keithism has nothing to say on structural reform, where problems created by previous mistakes require major intervention.
The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed.
The type of thinking that led to the defeat in 2010 was actually moving into the space dominated by Tory ideas.
The "energy policy of the last 13 years" suggests you think the current situation is only a Tory creation....in actual fact New Labour were supportive of the privatisation of key utilities, and did nothing to correct the situation when in power.
Streeting can't wait to further privatise the NHS , it's only temporary folks ...... Honest it is .
Go feck yourself Streeting if you think that's going to fly with folks like me .
If your short of ideas in a difficult climate you little shyte then take your vision from Clem Attlee not that war criminal Blair .
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''The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed''
Of course it can Albie but not from opposition, reconstruction needs time to change the public's thinking with a period in govt' to stop the decline and gain trust then maybe in a second term put the reconstruction to the people otherwise you will be told you don't have a mandate.
Please explain how you would get elected achieve reconstruction Albie in one term.
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When the appointed intelligence agencies if the UK are unamimous that Iraq contained weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a certifiable lunatic.x what would you have a British Prime Minister do Tyke???
BobG
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''The neoliberal mindset starts from the assumption that the existing framework can only be tweaked, not reconstructed''
Of course it can Albie but not from opposition, reconstruction needs time to change the public's thinking with a period in govt' to stop the decline and gain trust then maybe in a second term put the reconstruction to the people otherwise you will be told you don't have a mandate.
Please explain how you would get elected achieve reconstruction Albie in one term.
When elected to government Labour aren't going to do what you think they will do Sydney .
I get your stance on getting elected but it's my opinion your going to be let down massively by Keith along with millions of others .
In fact I'll go as far as to say the next Labour government will be its last in its present form .
For what it's worth the Tories are likely to be facing the same issue but will probably survive .
You'd better hope Keith proves me wrong because if Labour can't fix this your done for and your a long time dead .
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When the appointed intelligence agencies if the UK are unamimous that Iraq contained weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a certifiable lunatic.x what would you have a British Prime Minister do Tyke???
BobG
Your falling for that one are you Bob ? , the lone gunman theory complete with a grassy knoll thrown in .
Nowt to do with Bush spoiling for a war then following getting his ass handed to him on 9/11 .
Blair was told in no uncertainties terms by our own experts on the consequences of invading Iraq and what the aftermath would be .
He decided to be Bush's bitch .
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Other than Blair himself that's the first time I've seen or heard anyone arguing in favour of the invasion of Iraq in over a decade and a half.
Takes all sorts I suppose.
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Don't know where you got grassy knolls from. I take it though that you are, and were, in favour of leaving WMD in the hands of a complete maniac with a penchant for killing. Fair enough. It explains quite a bit.
BobG
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When the appointed intelligence agencies if the UK are unamimous that Iraq contained weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a certifiable lunatic.x what would you have a British Prime Minister do Tyke???
BobG
Bob, I would think you wouldn’t have written that had the PM at that time been a Tory.
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Syd,
Renationalising energy (and water) is very popular, even with Tory voters, so it is pushing at an open door for Labour.
https://weownit.org.uk/blog/biggest-ever-poll-shows-huge-support-nationalisation
Labour do not need to prepare the ground of public opinion, it is already in place.
Timid Keith is creating complexity when simplicity is available.
All governments have greater flexibility to act in the first 2 years in power, but Keith has not made any statement of intent for this crucial period.
BST seems to think green energy was central to New Labour in power, but I am unaware of the data to support that.
Very little additional progress to that caused by price reductions can be shown.
I agree with Sharon Graham in this interview;
https://twitter.com/i/status/1622188177774501895
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You well know my views on this, where I have offered reasoning, whereas you are not answering a direct question with a direct answer.
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How many sectors would you nationalise Albie?
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ncRover,
Rail, Water and Energy at the earliest opportunity.
All of these are a cash cow for shareholders, with declining service provision for consumers.
How do I change Water supplier if I am unhappy with prices and sewage discharges?
None of these industries are working in the private sector, and the general public agree that they should be in public hands (including Tory voters).
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For the record, I entirely agree with that Albie.
But I also do understand Labour's reticence for political reasons.
Those policies are popular NOW. The danget comes when Labour embraces them and gives the Tory party a line to argue ("Same old Big Govt Labour" "Look how shit the trains were in the 1970s" "Bloated state" etc, etc). I'd put good money on the Tories, with their media backers behind them, using that to very good effect to draw support back to them, regardless of the actual merits of the case.
Labour has to get and hold power for 20 years if it is really going to make a difference. The first part of that, the "getting" power is a pre-requisite to everything. Which The Left has never truly understood.
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Don't know where you got grassy knolls from. I take it though that you are, and were, in favour of leaving WMD in the hands of a complete maniac with a penchant for killing. Fair enough. It explains quite a bit.
BobG
You can't connect so called intelligence and then not finding any WMD Bob .
How is that actually possible with the tech and resources available to the US and many Iraqi's no doubt more than willing to flip to the US for the right price or even just to save themselves .
Blair was played and Bush wanted a war .
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Bush was always going to have a war. Nothing Blair could have done would have prevented that.
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Bush was always going to have a war. Nothing Blair could have done would have prevented that.
I think Bush made it very clear at the time that his war mongering was "a coalition of the willing" i'm quite sure that Just like when Cameron could not supply the backing for Obama to go to war in Syria, Bush would of had to have second thoughts if Blair had not covered him !00%
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Bush was going in regardless. Certainly having British support helped him, but the lack of it wouldn't have stopped him.
I think it was a horrific mistake by Blair and I left the Labour party and votes against it at a GE as a result. But there's a lot of nonsense passed off as fact on this topic by folk with a political axe to grind.
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''Heat pumps are defying Maine’s winters and oil industry pushback
Fossil fuel industry groups say the technology isn’t ideal for the state’s climate. Mainers aren’t buying it''
''VAN BUREN, Maine — The video starts with a Maine radio show host dressed in a bright red jumpsuit walking through the snow to a stranger’s door and delighting her with an offer of free heating oil. “My name’s Blake, we’re from Maine Energy Facts and we want to fill up your oil — it’s on us!” he says at another stop, where a woman thanks him profusely as she cradles her baby.
Funded by a heating oil industry group, the “Fuel Your Love” promotional campaign has a feel-good touch, but it directs viewers to a website dispensing home heating advice that is peppered with overwhelmingly negative, and sometimes misleading, claims about electric-powered heat pumps, saying they “are simply not ideal for climates like ours.”
The message doesn’t seem to be working. Mainers are embracing heat pumps — boxy machines that function like reverse air conditioners, combining heating and cooling systems in a single unit. In a state where winter is long and chilling, and exorbitant oil and gas prices have motivated people to switch, crews have installed tens of thousands of heat pumps, prompting the fossil fuel industry to step up its efforts to beat back the trend ......... ''
https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2023/02/07/maine-gas-industry-heat-pumps/
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There are 2 key issues on gas prices for next winter.
1) Increase gas storage capacity at Rough to give a buffer in a colder winter.
2) Decouple electricity prices from wholesale gas prices.
Issue 1 is set out in the FT link I posted at the top of the page.
No-one has said how they think this stand off should be sorted.
Issue 2 is still in place, even though the UK is reducing the production of electricity from gas, as new renewables come on stream.
About 44% of UK leccy was derived from gas, but that will fall further, so why is electricity priced at the cost of the most expensive source, not the mean cost of inputs?
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On issue 2 Albie, it truly is a bizarre system. I assume there was some logic to it at some point but I'm blowed if I can figure out what that was.
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Bare bones explainer from the BBC on the consumer rip off of locking electricity to gas prices:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64471262
This could be changed by government easily.....so why the delay?
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Same reason as everything else going off at this time i suppose, people and organisations making a killing out of this will be very appreciative to the current people in charge!
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ncRover,
Rail, Water and Energy at the earliest opportunity.
All of these are a cash cow for shareholders, with declining service provision for consumers.
How do I change Water supplier if I am unhappy with prices and sewage discharges?
None of these industries are working in the private sector, and the general public agree that they should be in public hands (including Tory voters).
It’s well known that publicly run services become less cost efficient over time. Is there evidence that public ownership would give the taxpayer better value for money?
People point to bp profits and demand more tax on them, but they were at a £18bn loss in 2020. Has this in part lead to price increases along with the Ukraine war? Or how about an uncertain future due to western governments wanting to come away from fossil fuels? Are they protecting against past and future losses?
If they make more profits, they pay more tax. The current left-wing populist movement tricks some in to believing they pay no tax at all.
If we benefit from their profits more (with a windfall tax) should we also suffer the consequences of their losses too? Or do you think there are no trade offs here in a proposed idealistic situation?
Not claiming to know it all just curious.
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Away from the politics, the futures price of gas is still coming down rapidly.
Currently at the lowest price for 18 months and still falling.
I heard Martin Lewis on the radio discussing this last night. Because these are FUTURES prices, there' a 6 month or so lag between the price changing sand this being reflected in our bills. But he expects by late summer that the average household gas and electric bill will be down to £2100, down from the (capped) current level of £2500, and the uncapped value of ~£5000.
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Away from the politics, the futures price of gas is still coming down rapidly.
Currently at the lowest price for 18 months and still falling.
I heard Martin Lewis on the radio discussing this last night. Because these are FUTURES prices, there' a 6 month or so lag between the price changing sand this being reflected in our bills. But he expects by late summer that the average household gas and electric bill will be down to £2100, down from the (capped) current level of £2500, and the uncapped value of ~£5000.
That’s good news. As is this mild weather.
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The bbc morning news also reported the falling gas prices.
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Consultants Cornwall Insight say raising the Energy Price Guarantee from £2,500 to £3,000 in April will save the government £2.6bn across the entire scheme. Based on projected costs, if the EPG increases to £3,000 as planned, the cost would be £26.8bn if it remains at £2,500, the cost would be £29.4bn.
So Hunt can in his March budget absorb any increase at very low cost to the Treasury, covered by the better than expected tax received in the latest figures.
Still no justification for an extended time delay to price revision, which could operate much more quickly.
When are we going to have a mature discussion about standing charges, which act as a push factor on cost increases without justification?
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Centrica are still playing silly buggers over Rough, as I posted in 810;
https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/north-sea/484981/centrica-rough-gas-storage-could-run-for-40-more-years-through-fresh-investment/
They still want a big subsidy to do what is obvious for their business.
Given this facility can transit to green hydrogen storage from North Sea wind in due course, it's a no brainer.
If Sunak/Hunt and Co had any bollox, they would take Rough from Centrica and develop it as a national resource.
What a strange world we have when private corporates expect their ongoing business investment to be funded by the public, so that they can generate excess profits to be paid to their shareholders.
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Just had an email from eon saying standing charges are going up from 49p per day to 55p per day ,that because the electric has come down ,so they are just putting these up to compensate robbing sods
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Unit price on electricity is coming down though so the impact is negligible to none. For me it's about £14 saving on a yearly basis as I save more on usage than the standing charge increase.
Maybe it would go down further if we have labours (spent on everything) "proper windfall tax".
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Germans getting serious about phasing out gas:
https://www.ft.com/content/fbb800a9-5c6e-4781-943b-a6235f4149c9
We need to do the same, if we had any backbone.
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Germans getting serious about phasing out gas:
https://www.ft.com/content/fbb800a9-5c6e-4781-943b-a6235f4149c9
We need to do the same, if we had any backbone.
The same Germans who are burning an increasing amount of coal due to shutting down nuclear plants?
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ncRover,
I think you are muddling different issues up.
Germany is looking to reduce dependency on gas imports, previously from Russia.
So they have a policy to do that, for energy security reasons.
Germany plans to phase out fossil fuel heating, starting from January 2024.
Use of coal in Germany (and elsewhere) will decline rapidly going forwards, on cost grounds as well as on carbon emissions.
The phaseout of nuclear at the end of life schedule has been policy in place for some years.
There has been discussion about whether a temporary extension to existing nuclear should be granted, as a bridge to allow renewable capacity to be extended as a replacement.
They have decided not to extend operational lifetime of nuclear, which would have been subject to safety assessment in any case.
I disagree with that conclusion, but any use of coal is a short term measure pending the uptake of new renewable capacity.
As Europe is looking to electrify at speed, the question is how you generate sufficient electricity at lowest cost.
Wind and Solar are far cheaper than other means of generation, so coal and nuclear will not be in the mix 5 years down the line.
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By 2032 the Dogger Bank will be producing Enough electricity to fuel 25 million homes, by 2050 it will produce enough for 85 million
That's just the Dogger Bank, plus all of the other offshore Green schemes, all we need to be doing is developing better storage schemes like the one proposed for Thorpe Marsh and we could easily become a huge energy exporter.
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ncRover,
I think you are muddling different issues up.
Germany is looking to reduce dependency on gas imports, previously from Russia.
So they have a policy to do that, for energy security reasons.
Germany plans to phase out fossil fuel heating, starting from January 2024.
Use of coal in Germany (and elsewhere) will decline rapidly going forwards, on cost grounds as well as on carbon emissions.
The phaseout of nuclear at the end of life schedule has been policy in place for some years.
There has been discussion about whether a temporary extension to existing nuclear should be granted, as a bridge to allow renewable capacity to be extended as a replacement.
They have decided not to extend operational lifetime of nuclear, which would have been subject to safety assessment in any case.
I disagree with that conclusion, but any use of coal is a short term measure pending the uptake of new renewable capacity.
As Europe is looking to electrify at speed, the question is how you generate sufficient electricity at lowest cost.
Wind and Solar are far cheaper than other means of generation, so coal and nuclear will not be in the mix 5 years down the line.
Fair enough Albie, you know your stuff. It will be interesting to see how that goes.
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The fascinating thing is to see how low Swiss inflation has remained throughout this entire crisis.
Switzerland use virtually no natural gas for energy production. They are very lucky in being a mountainous country, they can rely so much on hydroelectric power.
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The Swiss are indeed lucky, but they have also invested in the engineering infrastructure required to harness the potential that their landscape offers. They do this on mammoth scale.
The Grand Dixence reservoir is 2500m above sea level, and to capture the water, they built a concrete dam there which is nearly the height of the Emley Moor mast. Then there's 100km of tunnels to take the water at hundreds of mph 2km vertically down the mountain to the turbines.
It's worth it though, because the energy released by dropping water through those sorts of heights is huge. 1 litre falling 2km will produce enough electricity to power a light bulb for 1 hour. The Grand Dixence reservoir holds 400 BILLION litres, and releases it at a rate of up to 750 million litres per second. The energy generated from that reservoir is not far off that produced by Drax - without an ounce of CO2 released.
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Economics owes much to science and engineering. I'd always put my faith in engineers before economists.
And the Swiss are an object lesson in the value of green energy.
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As an engineer myself RD, I have a different take. We need both great engineers AND great economists. One without the other is bound to fail.
Engineering takes on relatively easily defined problems. They can still be hard to solve, but you're dealing, mostly, with mechanisms that are testable and capable of being analysed and understood.
Economics is far, far harder, because you are dealing with complex, very difficult to properly analyse systems, vulnerable to the caprices of human actions. And economics is always affected by politics.
There are great and awful engineers and great and awful economists.
Awful engineers usually get weeded out.
Awful economists can still have great influence, if they tell the story that the politically powerful want to hear. God knows we saw that with Austerity, where the awful economists won because their ideas were what the Right wanted to hear.
I've just finished reading a superb book by a superb economist. Slouching Towards Utopia by Brad Delong. Absolutely brilliant masterpiece on the economics of the past 150 years - what we got spectacularly right and wrong.
His take is that we had a semi-Utopian world in our grasp between 1945 and 1975. A world of rapid growth, more equitably shared than ever before. But we threw it away after that by embracing economic ideas that made the rich fabulously wealthy while anyone outside the top 10% slipped behind. And that was a political choice, embracing demonstrably wrong economics.
I'd recommend that book to anyone who is seriously interested in the economic and political problems we have today.
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Ok BST here is your next book to read
https://whoswholegal.com/features/securitisation-a-brief-history-and-the-road-ahead
In 2008 the "flaw" in it was revealed
caused by "financial engineering"
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I would imagine that lots of people could look back over the last 150 years and tell us where we went right or wrong in lots of things.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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It'll be interesting to see what level OFGEM set the July energy price caps in a couple of weeks time.
The gas futures price is still coming down at a rate of knots. Putin has lost that war and that ability to hold Europe to ransom.
The issue know is how fast prices to consumers will come down.
I'm on Octopus Agile tariff for my electricity. They offer a different price for every 30 minute block of the day, depending on predicted cost to them if buying the electricity and demand from consumers.
Over the past four months, the average price of Octopus Agile electricity has been:
Feb 27.4 p/kWh
Mar 23.7
Apr 22.5
May 20.5
The highest rate Octopus had charged in the past 12 months was 35p when there was a brief panic about gas supplies last Summer. Apart from that, it hasn't touched 30p.
Yet the big providers are still charging 31-33p, day-in, day-out, in line with the current price cap.
If Octopus can turn a profit at their rates, it looks very much like the big companies are profiteering under the cover of a way too high energy cap level.
But still no action from this Govt to bring them to heel.
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The forecast rates are given here:
https://twitter.com/CornwallInsight/status/1655859476501504002
Still no fundamental change to the structure of energy markets, so no real prospect of reducing fuel poverty by either government nor industry.
The elephant in the room is electricity charges.
These continue to be set by wholesale gas prices, for which there is no longer any clear reason.
Privatisation of energy service provision is a con trick on the public accounts, and a rip off of consumers.
None of the political parties have any clue about energy economics, aside from the need to curry favour from the vested interests.
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The forecast rates are given here:
https://twitter.com/CornwallInsight/status/1655859476501504002
Still no fundamental change to the structure of energy markets, so no real prospect of reducing fuel poverty by either government nor industry.
The elephant in the room is electricity charges.
These continue to be set by wholesale gas prices, for which there is no longer any clear reason.
Privatisation of energy service provision is a con trick on the public accounts, and a rip off of consumers.
None of the political parties have any clue about energy economics, aside from the need to curry favour from the vested interests.
Yes, Albie, and of all the pledges Keith has reneged on, and there have been plenty, his U turn on public ownership, particularly energy, has been the worst.
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It'll be interesting to see what level OFGEM set the July energy price caps in a couple of weeks time.
The gas futures price is still coming down at a rate of knots. Putin has lost that war and that ability to hold Europe to ransom.
The issue know is how fast prices to consumers will come down.
I'm on Octopus Agile tariff for my electricity. They offer a different price for every 30 minute block of the day, depending on predicted cost to them if buying the electricity and demand from consumers.
Over the past four months, the average price of Octopus Agile electricity has been:
Feb 27.4 p/kWh
Mar 23.7
Apr 22.5
May 20.5
Do Octopus offer an Agile tariff for a combined Gas and Electric user or is it just Electric - and if so can you be on a separate tariff with Octopus for Gas supply at the same time?
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There's no Agile gas tariff. But you can be on Agile for electricity and their standard tariff for gas, which, as with all other providers, is currently about 10p/,kWh.
There's no penalty fee if you leave them either.
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There's no Agile gas tariff. But you can be on Agile for electricity and their standard tariff for gas, which, as with all other providers, is currently about 10p/,kWh.
There's no penalty fee if you leave them either.
I am with Octopus and never heard of this Agile Electric Tariff
Will be looking into this immediately if it’s cheaper.
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There's no Agile gas tariff. But you can be on Agile for electricity and their standard tariff for gas, which, as with all other providers, is currently about 10p/,kWh.
There's no penalty fee if you leave them either.
I am with Octopus and never heard of this Agile Electric Tariff
Will be looking into this immediately if it’s cheaper.
Depends when you use your electric. It's slightly more expensive at peak times, but overall, much cheaper.
This website is updated around 4pm each day with the next day's rates.
https://agileprices.co.uk/?region=M
Obviously it works out much better if you have a battery at home. We've got a 9.6kWh battery connected to our solar panels. This time of year, the battery usually fills up during the day. But today the panels only produced 3.5kWh. So I topped up the battery between 2-5pm when the electricity cost was only 15p/kWh. That'll see us through to lunchtime tomorrow, by which time the sun should be out again, or if not, we can fill the batteries from the grid tomorrow pm at 13p/kWh.
On average we use about 12kWh per day. So at the standard tariff of 33p that would be about £4 per day. With the panels working, we've only drawn 3kWh per day from the grid this month, and most of that has been at 15p. So we've actually spent less than 50p per day.
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Quite an interesting election battleground this could be.
https://news.sky.com/story/sir-jim-ratcliffe-warns-of-north-sea-energy-death-due-to-uk-windfall-tax-12882017
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Quite an interesting election battleground this could be.
https://news.sky.com/story/sir-jim-ratcliffe-warns-of-north-sea-energy-death-due-to-uk-windfall-tax-12882017
Sir Jim speaks with forked tongue.
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Always more to it than meets the eye when it comes to taxing businesses.
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Quite an interesting election battleground this could be.
https://news.sky.com/story/sir-jim-ratcliffe-warns-of-north-sea-energy-death-due-to-uk-windfall-tax-12882017
Man who makes utterly obscene profits from fossil fuels complains about being taxed.
Slow news day?
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Or man who holds the purse strings states facts? He's not the only one saying it.
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He also said that the extra taxes would impinge on any investments they could make on renewables.
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Or man who holds the purse strings states facts? He's not the only one saying it.
Man who holds the purse strings?
That'll be the purse that has been filled to bursting by Putin's War.
I'm reading a book on the economic history of WWII. I hadn't realised that Churchill's Govt imposed taxes of 60% on the excess profits of companies that made those excess profits out of the contracts that Govt gave them for munitions supply.
If we did that to Ratcliffe's profits now, it wouldn't be his decision where to invest the money he hasn't earned. It would be the nation's decision. Just as it was in 1940.
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Man who holds the purse strings?
That'll be the purse that has been filled to bursting by Putin's War.
I'm reading a book on the economic history of WWII. I hadn't realised that Churchill's Govt imposed taxes of 60% on the excess profits of companies that made those excess profits out of the contracts that Govt gave them for munitions supply.
If we did that to Ratcliffe's profits now, it wouldn't be his decision where to invest the money he hasn't earned. It would be the nation's decision. Just as it was in 1940.
Billy
I'm reading a biography of Churchill currently.
You might be interested to know that % was 80% in the First World War and as Minister of Munitions towards the end of the war Churchill (then a Liberal) argued in favour of increasing it to 100% but the proposition was rejected by the Tories in the coalition.
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Investment in renewables? Like Man Utd ?
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Martin Lewis on the Energy Price Cap;
https://twitter.com/MartinSLewis/status/1661683158981697542?cxt=HHwWjIDTxe6Bvo8uAAAA