Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on March 19, 2022, 12:35:50 am
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From the man who brought you Godwin's Law comes another one for the ages.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/1504687870006620163
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Well Billy you don't use 'Woke' as a perjorative but you still are one!is that numb nuts third law?.
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I'd kike to see Godwin have a crack at finding the cut off point in society where those that vote tory actually admit it and stop blaming others.
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Just think if all those Tory voters go had voted Labour we’d now have a government led my Comrade Corbyn and a cabinet with Abbott, McDonald in it. Frightening. And this country wouldn’t have aided Ukraine at all, they’d have been supporting Russia with their anti NATO stance.
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Just think if all those Tory voters go had voted Labour we’d now have a government led my Comrade Corbyn and a cabinet with Abbott, McDonald in it. Frightening. And this country wouldn’t have aided Ukraine at all, they’d have been supporting Russia with their anti NATO stance.
Just think if we'd had a labour government since 2010 there 50K+ wouldn't have died due to Austerity and 10s of thousands would still be alive due to the mishandling of the pandemic response. I guess it's all about priorities.
I would like to see the tory and labour in a contest to help all British people as much as they want to help all Ukrainians.
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Just think if all those Tory voters go had voted Labour we’d now have a government led my Comrade Corbyn and a cabinet with Abbott, McDonald in it. Frightening. And this country wouldn’t have aided Ukraine at all, they’d have been supporting Russia with their anti NATO stance.
Ok fair do's Corbyn didn't tick every box to say the least .
But he was bang on about Russian money influencing politics in this country and the Tories doing what they do best which is put money before the people of this country and the greater good .
He called that out years ago .
In the grand scheme of things as things stand today Corbyn is just about the last person associated with this thing .
But you suit yourself .
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Labour's policy on Syria under Corbyn was an absolute moral disgrace. Seamus Milne, the press officer, instructed his circle not to criticise the destruction of Aleppo by Putin as it would "deflect attention from bigger crimes committed by Britain and the USA".
Utterly disgusting. And Mariupol is what it has led to.
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Have to agree corbyn's foreign policy was confused and unfathomable his NATO stance is another but he was against the war in Iraq. Unfortunately in this world you cannot have peace without strong defence as some neutrals are now finding.
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Labour's policy on Syria under Corbyn was an absolute moral disgrace. Seamus Milne, the press officer, instructed his circle not to criticise the destruction of Aleppo by Putin as it would "deflect attention from bigger crimes committed by Britain and the USA".
Utterly disgusting. And Mariupol is what it has led to.
Please tell me your not pinning Mariupol on Corbyn .
Billy I had you down as deluded with at least some kind of brain .
Actually your a pryck .
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Wind your neck in Tyke, of course I'm not blaming Corbyn for Mariupol. I'm saying he and his team deliberately ignored it when Putin did the same in Aleppo.
You want to contradict that?
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“Just think if we'd had a labour government since 2010 there 50K+ wouldn't have died due to Austerity and 10s of thousands would still be alive due to the mishandling of the pandemic response. I guess it's all about priorities.
I would like to see the tory and labour in a contest to help all British people as much as they want to help all Ukrainians.”
These are presumed figures that can’t be taken in any context as they can’t be proven
I do admit which I raised on another thread the open arms to Ukrainians is for me quite hypocritical after the way the country has treated others
It’s also quite canny. After Brexit there was a definite shortage of foreign labour in this country. Allowing Ukrainian refugees to come here and work with open arms will possibly plug some of the gap
I really cannot believe that anyone can support Corbyn and some of his policies
He stood on platforms with terrorists and murderers fighting against the UK whilst they were killings citizens of the UK.
I’d rather have Screaming Lord Sutch. Corbyn and his like are whats keeping the Labour Party from being any real threat to the Tories
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“I really cannot believe that anyone can support Corbyn and some of his policies”
But many on this forum and particularly the Off Topic threads were championing him as the future leader of this country a while back. Some are now trying to distance themselves from him.
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With what we all have seen from may & johnson and his teammates corbyn would have been the least worst option surely.
exporting ones own citizens, hostile environment in the UK ffs, 10s of thousands dead, what could have been worse?
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With what we all have seen from may & johnson and his teammates corbyn would have been the least worst option surely.
exporting ones own citizens, hostile environment in the UK ffs, 10s of thousands dead, what could have been worse?
Ah my old workmates 'WUDDA,SHUDDA and CUDDA!' There is nothing finer than hindsight, who is to say things WUDDA been better,,I think not!
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This little tale sums your lot up!, the Police in Bristol advised the Council to remove the Coulson statue, nobody but the lefty Wokes even realised it was there or even knew who he was! Some WOKE on the Council told the Police that they would not removing for fear of upsetting The majority of Bristols Population.
At the trial the defence claimed they were acting in accordance with Section 3 of the Prevention of crime Act and removed it to prevent an uprising by the good citizens of Bristol who were all deeply offended by it!!!
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The last election was the worst choice ever.
One party had a leader that wasn't prepared to criticise Russia. The other party was funded by Russia.
It's odd that it's only Labour supporters who criticise both, but there you go...
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Just think if all those Tory voters go had voted Labour we’d now have a government led my Comrade Corbyn and a cabinet with Abbott, McDonald in it. Frightening. And this country wouldn’t have aided Ukraine at all, they’d have been supporting Russia with their anti NATO stance.
Just think if we'd had a labour government since 2010 there 50K+ wouldn't have died due to Austerity and 10s of thousands would still be alive due to the mishandling of the pandemic response. I guess it's all about priorities.
I would like to see the tory and labour in a contest to help all British people as much as they want to help all Ukrainians.
Have to agree corbyn's foreign policy was confused and unfathomable his NATO stance is another but he was against the war in Iraq. Unfortunately in this world you cannot have peace without strong defence as some neutrals are now finding.
With what we all have seen from may & johnson and his teammates corbyn would have been the least worst option surely.
exporting ones own citizens, hostile environment in the UK ffs, 10s of thousands dead, what could have been worse?
Three slightly different arguments by the same person, depending on who he was arguing against.
All within a short space of time.
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Syd on what factual basis are you saying 10s of thousands have died because there hasn’t been a Labour c
Government
Please don’t quote some left wing report. It doesn’t matter what anyone says those type of accusations can only be supposition as they can’t be proved supported or verified in any way
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Wind your neck in Tyke, of course I'm not blaming Corbyn for Mariupol. I'm saying he and his team deliberately ignored it when Putin did the same in Aleppo.
You want to contradict that?
Apologies for the abuse Billy , uncalled for .
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No need Tyke. We all boil over every now and then.
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Syd on what factual basis are you saying 10s of thousands have died because there hasn’t been a Labour c
Government
Please don’t quote some left wing report. It doesn’t matter what anyone says those type of accusations can only be supposition as they can’t be proved supported or verified in any way
You may have to define what ''lefty study'' means phil and where they are done. Hope you are not thinking 'woke'
''Effects of health and social care spending constraints on mortality in England: a time trend analysis
Objective Since 2010, England has experienced relative constraints in public expenditure on healthcare (PEH) and social care (PES). We sought to determine whether these constraints have affected mortality rates.
Methods We collected data on health and social care resources and finances for England from 2001 to 2014. Time trend analyses were conducted to compare the actual mortality rates in 2011–2014 with the counterfactual rates expected based on trends before spending constraints. Fixed-effects regression analyses were conducted using annual data on PES and PEH with mortality as the outcome, with further adjustments for macroeconomic factors and resources. Analyses were stratified by age group, place of death and lower-tier local authority (n=325). Mortality rates to 2020 were projected based on recent trends''
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/11/e017722
let me know when you are done there's plenty more and I'll be asking questions.
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Just think if all those Tory voters go had voted Labour we’d now have a government led my Comrade Corbyn and a cabinet with Abbott, McDonald in it. Frightening. And this country wouldn’t have aided Ukraine at all, they’d have been supporting Russia with their anti NATO stance.
Just think if we'd had a labour government since 2010 there 50K+ wouldn't have died due to Austerity and 10s of thousands would still be alive due to the mishandling of the pandemic response. I guess it's all about priorities.
I would like to see the tory and labour in a contest to help all British people as much as they want to help all Ukrainians.
Have to agree corbyn's foreign policy was confused and unfathomable his NATO stance is another but he was against the war in Iraq. Unfortunately in this world you cannot have peace without strong defence as some neutrals are now finding.
With what we all have seen from may & johnson and his teammates corbyn would have been the least worst option surely.
exporting ones own citizens, hostile environment in the UK ffs, 10s of thousands dead, what could have been worse?
Three slightly different arguments by the same person, depending on who he was arguing against.
All within a short space of time.
All you can think is deluded, and possibly certifiable.
Probably also a danger to himself, and small pets.
Note, its when you spoute utter contemptible crap like this that your main argument looses any plausibility.
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Just think if all those Tory voters go had voted Labour we’d now have a government led my Comrade Corbyn and a cabinet with Abbott, McDonald in it. Frightening. And this country wouldn’t have aided Ukraine at all, they’d have been supporting Russia with their anti NATO stance.
Just think if we'd had a labour government since 2010 there 50K+ wouldn't have died due to Austerity and 10s of thousands would still be alive due to the mishandling of the pandemic response. I guess it's all about priorities.
I would like to see the tory and labour in a contest to help all British people as much as they want to help all Ukrainians.
Have to agree corbyn's foreign policy was confused and unfathomable his NATO stance is another but he was against the war in Iraq. Unfortunately in this world you cannot have peace without strong defence as some neutrals are now finding.
With what we all have seen from may & johnson and his teammates corbyn would have been the least worst option surely.
exporting ones own citizens, hostile environment in the UK ffs, 10s of thousands dead, what could have been worse?
Three slightly different arguments by the same person, depending on who he was arguing against.
All within a short space of time.
All you can think is deluded, and possibly certifiable.
Probably also a danger to himself, and small pets.
Note, its when you spoute utter contemptible crap like this that your main argument looses any plausibility.
Here is the bmj spouting some of that contemptible nonsense DD
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/11/e017722
Any problems of having different views on different points DD, following hound down a rabbit hole is a slippery slope as he gets inspiration from selby.
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Just think if all those Tory voters go had voted Labour we’d now have a government led my Comrade Corbyn and a cabinet with Abbott, McDonald in it. Frightening. And this country wouldn’t have aided Ukraine at all, they’d have been supporting Russia with their anti NATO stance.
Just think if we'd had a labour government since 2010 there 50K+ wouldn't have died due to Austerity and 10s of thousands would still be alive due to the mishandling of the pandemic response. I guess it's all about priorities.
I would like to see the tory and labour in a contest to help all British people as much as they want to help all Ukrainians.
Have to agree corbyn's foreign policy was confused and unfathomable his NATO stance is another but he was against the war in Iraq. Unfortunately in this world you cannot have peace without strong defence as some neutrals are now finding.
With what we all have seen from may & johnson and his teammates corbyn would have been the least worst option surely.
exporting ones own citizens, hostile environment in the UK ffs, 10s of thousands dead, what could have been worse?
Three slightly different arguments by the same person, depending on who he was arguing against.
All within a short space of time.
All you can think is deluded, and possibly certifiable.
Probably also a danger to himself, and small pets.
Note, its when you spoute utter contemptible crap like this that your main argument looses any plausibility.
Here is the bmj spouting some of that contemptible nonsense DD
https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/11/e017722
Any problems of having different views on different points DD, following hound down a rabbit hole is a slippery slope as he gets inspiration from selby.
I'm still trying to work out where the lives of these senior citizens (over85)would of been improved by the impelemtation of the labour party over any other would have made the difference, given that when labour was in govenerment they also had this same demographic dying in care homes.
Or could it just be that when the majority of people get to 85 they tend to be a litle frail and prone to illness?
I'm not saying you dont look after your senior citizens but do we as a nation spend so much less then supposed leaders in this field.?
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"A limitation was that our study was observational and retrospective, thereby our findings likely capture association rather than causation"
Does this quote from your BMJ render it useless in the greater scheme of things.
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"A limitation was that our study was observational and retrospective, thereby our findings likely capture association rather than causation"
Does this quote from your BMJ render it useless in the greater scheme of things.
I would think it is better than yours or mine.
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"We were unable to analyse specific causes of death as outcomes because there were differences in how causes of death in 2001–2010 and 2010 onwards were coded, resulting in a lack of comparability for causes of death such as circulatory disease."
So this quote renders your statement that a Labour government would of made a difference inaccurate as they don't know if it was better or worse under Labour,
So like we all thought, you're just cherry picking facts to fit your narrative.
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Plus anyone who can quote "Corbyn as the least worst option on anything" seriously needs to have a word with themselves.
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DD.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/640/cpsprodpb/2A0E/production/_120666701_uk_life_exp_20-nc.png)
Look at that graph. Think about when Austerity started. With the long process of depressed living standards, and health spending not keeping up with its earlier trajectory.
That in itself is not proof of causation, but it's a correlation that needs to be considered.
In terms of state pension provision as a safety net for decent old age, ours is the worst in the OECD, measured against average wages. Pensioners with a decent occupational pension aren't badly off. But those who haven't got that have a pitiful existence.
And it's not all about how much we spend on old people. It's also about the conditions we have been putting younger people through for the past decade and some, meaning that long term health has not been improving as it used to do.
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"We were unable to analyse specific causes of death as outcomes because there were differences in how causes of death in 2001–2010 and 2010 onwards were coded, resulting in a lack of comparability for causes of death such as circulatory disease."
So this quote renders your statement that a Labour government would of made a difference inaccurate as they don't know if it was better or worse under Labour,
So like we all thought, you're just cherry picking facts to fit your narrative.
Labour would not have continued Austerity to the extent of trashing the economy, if you wish to show me any reputable economist that supports the economic path the government followed knock yourself out.
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We can see what the graph is demonstrating but we don't have categorical evidence that this happened due to the current incumbents or could have also happened under any political party.
Your quote about state pension provision being the worst in the OECD is selective again because they all have different provisions, most of Euorpe pay a far greater percentage of their income into the state pensions compared with our pitiful effort, but then our occupations pension are different again to theirs, so not a good comparison. I agree that those who don't have private provision can be very stretched.
Your last paragraph could also be aimed at any government who basically trashed the economy, who's to say that the previous Labour party manifesto would not of had a greater bearing on the lives and long term health of the young today, if i remember rightly the last Labour incumbent trashed the pension industry to within an inch of its life, for some never to be recovered. I'm sure that's doing a great job on the health of the current population, who's to say that episode did not also add to the downfall in life expectancy on the graph?
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Maybe you should have a look and compare how labour governments performed on an economic basis especially immediately following the GFC.
''These differences are not statistically significant, but the discrepancy between mean and median hints at the presence of outliers of particularly strong or weak quarters in the data that are skewing the mean averages. In fact, Labour have achieved a higher concentration of quarters of positive growth than the Conservatives. Indeed, despite the 2008-09 recession taking place on Labour’s watch, the party has only overseen seven quarters of recession in the past 100 years compared to 17 under the Conservatives''
https://theconversation.com/labour-are-much-better-at-running-the-economy-than-voters-think-new-research-162368
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''Results Spending constraints between 2010 and 2014 were associated with an estimated 45 368 (95% CI 34 530 to 56 206) higher than expected number of deaths compared with pre-2010 trends. Deaths in those aged ≥60 and in care homes accounted for the majority. PES was more strongly linked with care home and home mortality than PEH, with each £10 per capita decline in real PES associated with an increase of 5.10 (3.65–6.54) (p<0.001) care home deaths per 100 000. These associations persisted in lag analyses and after adjustment for macroeconomic factors. Furthermore, we found that changes in real PES per capita may be linked to mortality mostly via changes in nurse numbers. Projections to 2020 based on 2009-2014 trend was cumulatively linked to an estimated 152 141 (95% CI 134 597 and 169 685) additional deaths.
Conclusions Spending constraints, especially PES, are associated with a substantial mortality gap. We suggest that spending should be targeted on improving care delivered in care homes and at home; and maintaining or increasing nurse numbers.
This is an Open Access article distributed in accordance with the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution (CC BY 4.0) license, which permits others to distribute, remix, adapt and build upon this work, for commercial use, provided the original work is properly cited. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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Sydney your facts might be correct re recession but I do feel that love him or hate him BJ and the government have to be cut a little slack due to the events of the past 5 yrs
Things like the adjustment to the economy and Brexit negotiations didn’t make things easy and then COVID on top.
Forget party allegiance and look at things logically all the spending and support during COVID has to be paid for at some time
The chancellor is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. I can’t imagine any other government could have come out of this mess in any better position.
Apart from a spend spend spend policy by Starmer which is very easy to advocate when you’re not spending it or justifying it I have heard nothing of consequence from Starmer (underwhelming to say the least)
One thing I would say is it was nice to hear a Labour mp The Shadow Chancellor on Sunday morning quoting a Labour policy of a windfall tax instead of the usual Starmer rhetoric of having no policy but whatever you do it’s Sxxt
This government has made mistakes for definite but overall we appear to be in a better place than our close neighbours who are also suffering
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Sydney your facts might be correct re recession but I do feel that love him or hate him BJ and the government have to be cut a little slack due to the events of the past 5 yrs
Things like the adjustment to the economy and Brexit negotiations didn’t make things easy and then COVID on top.
Forget party allegiance and look at things logically all the spending and support during COVID has to be paid for at some time
The chancellor is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. I can’t imagine any other government could have come out of this mess in any better position.
Apart from a spend spend spend policy by Starmer which is very easy to advocate when you’re not spending it or justifying it I have heard nothing of consequence from Starmer (underwhelming to say the least)
One thing I would say is it was nice to hear a Labour mp The Shadow Chancellor on Sunday morning quoting a Labour policy of a windfall tax instead of the usual Starmer rhetoric of having no policy but whatever you do it’s Sxxt
This government has made mistakes for definite but overall we appear to be in a better place than our close neighbours who are also suffering
phil, If you could explain what outcomes you would expect from the government over the next two to five years, regarding wages, inflation, gdp, employment and any other factors you think important it may help me to help you. You could also remind me in what context I mentioned a recession.
Maybe put some context to the statement you have attached to Starmer.
Regarding brexit it's about time that those that voted for it and the government that delivered it to own it don't you think?
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Sydney
A direct lift
Indeed, despite the 2008-09 recession taking place on Labour’s watch, the party has only overseen seven quarters of recession in the past 100 years compared to 17 under the Conservatives''
I don’t need to justify my thoughts and I think I can definitely say I don’t need you to help me
Once again as usual you try to put a twist on everything
If you really think any other government could have handled the likes of COVID any better then that’s your opinion
Irrelevant of how anyone voted Brexit was basically held up by people who wouldn’t accept the result but were happy to accept the options on the ballot paper until they lost
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Asks all the questions but never answers any.
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Sydney
A direct lift
Indeed, despite the 2008-09 recession taking place on Labour’s watch, the party has only overseen seven quarters of recession in the past 100 years compared to 17 under the Conservatives''
I don’t need to justify my thoughts and I think I can definitely say I don’t need you to help me
Once again as usual you try to put a twist on everything
If you really think any other government could have handled the likes of COVID any better then that’s your opinion
Irrelevant of how anyone voted Brexit was basically held up by people who wouldn’t accept the result but were happy to accept the options on the ballot paper until they lost
I was only referring to 'help you' in terms of answering your question phil .............
Yes labour managed the economy in terms of response to the gfc better than most other countries in the world.
Brexit, yes the tories need help after they decided to go for the worst economic outcome possible.
National Insurance, the government has already made it's intentions quite clear I would think, don't you?
''Middle-income earners ‘to be hit hardest’ by national insurance rise. Workers on £30,000 to £50,000 will pay higher percentage of salary than those on £100,000, figures reveal''
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jan/28/middle-income-earners-hit-hardest-national-insurance-higher-percentage-uk-rishi-sunak
As far as giving them a break ffs they created their own bunch of oligarchs during the pandemic by doing the same as their sponsors the Russians, no sympathy from me along those lines.
So starting with Austerity that hamstrung the economy to brexit which has cost and will cost into the distant future and everything in between I'm not sure what you expect phil.
You didn't say where and why Starmer said spend spend spend, without context it doesn't mean anything.
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Nat ins opinion re rise to support nhs
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Phil.
You want us to cut Johnson a little slack because of difficulties due to Brexit?
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Nat ins opinion re rise to support nhs
NHS, ah yes please remind how underfunded it has been throughout the tory years what the waiting list was before the pandemic.
It's not just that the NHS has to be funded it is the choice that was made as to who would pay.
And you didn't say where and why Starmer said spend spend spend, without context it doesn't mean anything.
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Billy
I was just making the point he had it to deal with as well as everything else such as COVID and I don’t think many would have wanted it to do.
It had to be done and the French and others made it difficult
A lot of what has happened has been forced upon him. I am not saying he’s a god or anything. At times he’s a blithering Buffoon and I can’t believe he’s managed to ride out all the controversies recently
It wasn’t an easy job to sort and neither was COVID. One of the points I’m making is there is not the everlasting pot of money that some think there is. Supporting the furlough and other things have to be paid for
Everyone can say that they would have done more and given more money to everyone which would have put the country in more debt than there is now
I seem to remember that not too long ago public opinion was in favour of raising taxes to support the NHS
A large proportion of the population are still in favour
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Very few would argue the the NHS doesn't need more funds but
''Figures produced by the Tax Calculator UK website show those earning £100,000 a year will pay just 7% of their overall salary in national insurance contributions (NICs) – the same proportion of their income as someone on £20,000 a year''
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jan/28/middle-income-earners-hit-hardest-national-insurance-higher-percentage-uk-rishi-sunak
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I agree that the way it is apparently calculated is strange. Why there isn’t a straight percentage of income I can’t see
Please explain how a Labour government would support the NHS in a better way and how Labour supported the NHS when they were last in government. We could all create millions if not billions by proper spending.
The civil service for one spend fortunes using agencies to book travel and to buy equipment. It would be far cheaper to buy things independently and to book travel and other items and equipment directly
This will be the same throughout government including the NHS. If a private company handled their budgets like national departments they’d go bust
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I guess if you increase taxes instead of the NI those earning less pay less phil
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I’m assuming it’s being done this way so the money can be red circled
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No tax income can be red circled.
It's being done this way because the key Tory constituency (well off people who don't work) contribute precisely f**k all to NI.
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Do I detect a little bit of bitterness Billy
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You detect a very large amount of anger at the unfairness of this.
But this is entirely secondary. The real reason why our health funding has flatlined over the past decade compared to where it needed to go is that we are a very great deal poorer as a nation than we should have been, because of the boneheaded stupidity of Austerity. Our economic growth in the 2010s was the worst of any decade since the 18th century. We have lost hundreds of billions of pounds of economic output, for precisely zero benefit, other than giving the Tories something to campaign on. Absolutely criminal.
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Sydney your facts might be correct re recession but I do feel that love him or hate him BJ and the government have to be cut a little slack due to the events of the past 5 yrs
Things like the adjustment to the economy and Brexit negotiations didn’t make things easy and then COVID on top.
Forget party allegiance and look at things logically all the spending and support during COVID has to be paid for at some time
The chancellor is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. I can’t imagine any other government could have come out of this mess in any better position.
Apart from a spend spend spend policy by Starmer which is very easy to advocate when you’re not spending it or justifying it I have heard nothing of consequence from Starmer (underwhelming to say the least)
One thing I would say is it was nice to hear a Labour mp The Shadow Chancellor on Sunday morning quoting a Labour policy of a windfall tax instead of the usual Starmer rhetoric of having no policy but whatever you do it’s Sxxt
This government has made mistakes for definite but overall we appear to be in a better place than our close neighbours who are also suffering
If we'd had a government that didn't cripple the economy so much for the ten years between 2010 and 2020, we'd have gone INTO it in a much better position!
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No tax income can be red circled.
It's being done this way because the key Tory constituency (well off people who don't work) contribute precisely f**k all to NI.
Do I detect a little bit of bitterness Billy
Yes you do detect bitterness by bst Phil.
He has consistently told us how much he resents pensioners.
He has said that we get too much state pension, too much of a rise each April and that we should be grateful for the younger people who pay for our pensions.
Forgetting of course that we paid for the pensions of people who were retired before we ourselves were.
He would have us all shot if he had the choice.
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So it has nothing to do with the last Labour government building the economy on mass borrowing and leaving the UK in a financially vulnerable position that had to be reversed after they lost
I know that this argument is a fruitless one because you will not change your view and I’m highly unlikely to change mine
There is also some research that suggests the last period of Labour government benefitted from the previous policies of the tories freeing up the labour market allowing the Labour Party a bit of a free ride. This is also disputed by some. It can be written up any way someone wants
What I would say is I am no lover of thatcher she was in my opinion a vindictive nasty person and the way she treated the working man was an absolute disgrace. I lived through that era and saw first hand the consequences of her policies and the way they devastated areas and families
It has taken years to recover. But let’s not be blinkered you cannot borrow your way to growth with no way of paying it back. Something has to give. That is one of the major problems at the moment. This government and it could easily have been a Labour government has had to borrow money to support the country through this crisis. That’s not the governments fault that is a result of the crisis.
As I wrote earlier better accounting within government services would save billions. The NHS would also save billions if they paid staff what they deserved to retain them and stopped paying agency staff on more money
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Phil.
It is the biggest myth in politics that the last Labour Govt had its good times based on unsustainable borrowing. It's absolutely and demonstrably untrue. Before the Global Financial Crisis hit, Govt debt under Labour was less than it had been under Thatcher and Major. It was only when the global crisis hit that debt went up. As it should.
You can and SHOULD use Government borrowing to pull yourself out of a recession. That has been textbook economic theory for 90 years. Industry is on its knees and can't invest. People get laid off. So they cut back their expenditure. So there's even less demand for products. So Industry gets even more hammered. Vicious circle. The solution is that Govt should borrow money and pour it into the economy to get the motor firing again. Govt debt incurred doing this doesn't matter. The crucial thing is to get the economy back on its feet. THEN Govt can reduce spending and get higher tax income, reducing the debt over decades.
Cameron was taught that at Cambridge. He chose to ignore it when the Global Financial Crisis occurred, because he saw beating Labour up over the debt that resulted was his path to No10.
It was truly that opportunistic.
The economics profession is pretty much unified in agreeing that the Austerity that Cameron and Osborne brought in was a catastrophe. It depressed economic growth for years. It depressed wages for over a decade. Ironically, the annoyance and bitterness it caused led directly to the rise of Farage (who did what right wing demagogues have done in every downturn - told people it was foreigners to blame). That resulted in the Brexit vote and the end of Cameron's career. But the permanent economic damage had already been done. By a man who consciously went against everything he'd been educated to do, to advance his own career. It's no exaggeration to say that we have lost something up to £1trn of economic activity, directly because of that decision.
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As I said in my post. You can write anything up in any way that suits
I did say that it had been written to suit both sides as you have proven. Like me yours is just your opinion. You cannot support your figures with fact it is all speculation
How you know what Cameron was taught I don’t know.
Just because you’re taught something it doesn’t mean you have to agree with it. I’m sure he could make decisions for himself.
I have to agree it was all about him and that’s why he called the Brexit vote believing he was on a winner and then very quickly ran away leaving others to sort it out
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I can support my argument with a stream of facts and the opinions of the finest economics minds in the world. But I assume I'd be wasting my time.
I know Cameron was taught that because I know what degree he studied, and what the syllabus includes. Did you think I'd made that up?
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Regarding the idea that he might choose to disagree with Keynesian Demand Management, yes he was free to do so. But given the importance of the decision (the biggest one in 50 years) he would require some really compelling evidence to do so.
So he and Osborne (who had zero economic education of course) referred to a paper by a couple of Harvard academics who appeared to be justifying Austerity. That paper was hugely controversial at the time with many other academics picking holes in it.
Then it turned out that the central argument in that paper was based on an analysis in an Excel spreadsheet that had been coded wrongly. When you corrected the error, their argument fell apart.
Such was the gossamer thin support that Austerity was based on.
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The last Labour Government wasted £Billions of the Taxpayers money, Browns Bottom, Browns raid on the Pension Funds both caused financial chaos, the Local Government offices which were totally unnecessary and ridiculously expensive, the local area Managers who got paid over £100 k per annum and did bugger all, Labour even chucked £500 at Bradford so what did they do with it? They employed a PA on £19£ for each of their underworked overpaid area managers.
You paint Labour as some sort of well run financially sound option when the opposite is clearly the case!
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Best quote on this thread is the one re Sydders being a 'Danger to himself and Small Pets!"
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Billy why do you have to start getting rude insinuating that I am a bit thick which I can assure you I’m not
You say you can support your argument with a stream of fact and opinions. I am assuming that what you would quote would be just that opinions. You might know what syllabus he was taught that again does not mean it had to be taken on bord as the oracle. I’m not trying to defend Cameron but you appear to be like a lot on the forum who have tunnel vision with no intention of looking sideways and considering other peoples opinions as fact. I suppose that’s why you lower yourself to insinuations about people
I can only assume that you are a graduate in economics meaning how only your opinion counts
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I haven't assumed or suggested that you are thick Phil.
But I do get annoyed when folk airly imply that I'm making something up. Your comment "How you know what Cameron was taught I don’t know" was straight from that school. You were implying that I was talking nonsense. So forgive me if I was a bit curt in the way I replied to you.
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Sydney
A direct lift
Indeed, despite the 2008-09 recession taking place on Labour’s watch, the party has only overseen seven quarters of recession in the past 100 years compared to 17 under the Conservatives''
I don’t need to justify my thoughts and I think I can definitely say I don’t need you to help me
Once again as usual you try to put a twist on everything
If you really think any other government could have handled the likes of COVID any better then that’s your opinion
Irrelevant of how anyone voted Brexit was basically held up by people who wouldn’t accept the result but were happy to accept the options on the ballot paper until they lost
I was only referring to 'help you' in terms of answering your question phil .............
Yes labour managed the economy in terms of response to the gfc better than most other countries in the world.
Brexit, yes the tories need help after they decided to go for the worst economic outcome possible.
National Insurance, the government has already made it's intentions quite clear I would think, don't you?
''Middle-income earners ‘to be hit hardest’ by national insurance rise. Workers on £30,000 to £50,000 will pay higher percentage of salary than those on £100,000, figures reveal''
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jan/28/middle-income-earners-hit-hardest-national-insurance-higher-percentage-uk-rishi-sunak
As far as giving them a break ffs they created their own bunch of oligarchs during the pandemic by doing the same as their sponsors the Russians, no sympathy from me along those lines.
So starting with Austerity that hamstrung the economy to brexit which has cost and will cost into the distant future and everything in between I'm not sure what you expect phil.
You didn't say where and why Starmer said spend spend spend, without context it doesn't mean anything.
Selective stats again to try to reinforce your own agenda,
''Middle-income earners ‘to be hit hardest’ by national insurance rise. Workers on £30,000 to £50,000 will pay higher percentage of salary than those on £100,000, figures reveal''
So someone on £100,000 who pays twice as much as someone on £30,000 (approx ave wage) is in your view not paying enough NI to the treasury because the percentage of their wage is at a lower figure, even though he is paying more??
Are these the politics of envy from someone who wants someone else to pay for his and his pals lifestyles??
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Billy I wasn’t saying you were making anything up.
Shall we just leave it we are in disagreement
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Phil.
"How you know what Cameron was taught I don’t know" read to me as "I don't believe you". But if you're telling me I'm wrong, I'm happy to accept that.
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Maybe you should have a look and compare how labour governments performed on an economic basis especially immediately following the GFC.
''These differences are not statistically significant, but the discrepancy between mean and median hints at the presence of outliers of particularly strong or weak quarters in the data that are skewing the mean averages. In fact, Labour have achieved a higher concentration of quarters of positive growth than the Conservatives. Indeed, despite the 2008-09 recession taking place on Labour’s watch, the party has only overseen seven quarters of recession in the past 100 years compared to 17 under the Conservatives''
https://theconversation.com/labour-are-much-better-at-running-the-economy-than-voters-think-new-research-162368
More selective facts to make your weak statement stand up, when it does not,
Labour have achieved a higher concentration of quarters of positive growth than the Conservatives. Indeed, despite the 2008-09 recession taking place on Labour’s watch, the party has only overseen seven quarters of recession in the past 100 years compared to 17 under the Conservatives.
A totally meaningless stat,when you consider the labour party has only been in government for 27 of the last 100 years and when you consider that the other lots tenure has usually been after labour have spent everyone's money again. So you have now possibly excelled in your false stat farce.
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Very few would argue the the NHS doesn't need more funds but
''Figures produced by the Tax Calculator UK website show those earning £100,000 a year will pay just 7% of their overall salary in national insurance contributions (NICs) – the same proportion of their income as someone on £20,000 a year''
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/jan/28/middle-income-earners-hit-hardest-national-insurance-higher-percentage-uk-rishi-sunak
I should of known better, he's at it again!!
''Figures produced by the Tax Calculator UK website show those earning £100,000 a year will pay just 7% of their overall salary in national insurance contributions (NICs) – the same proportion of their income as someone on £20,000 a year''
So your still banging on that someone who pays over twice as much NH needs to pay more?
Does that individual not pay enough for you into the pot when you also take his higher rate tax contribution in account ?
These lefty types want everyone to be relieved of their hard earned so it can be given away ,
WHY, we are not communists or crazy socialists, take away aspiration from the workforce and i will give you a ruined commie state that this joker wants.
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I love the level of political argument from people on the right.
1) You have no evidence to back up what you're saying. So I'm not going to believe you.
2) Ok you have provided evidence but you're just cherry picking to suit your argument. So I'm not going to believe you.
3) It's not my job to provide counter evidence. I'm going to trust my instinct that you're wrong and not believe you.
4) Whatever you say, Labour always spends other people's money, so there.
5) Why don't you just go and live in Russia?
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No tax income can be red circled.
It's being done this way because the key Tory constituency (well off people who don't work) contribute precisely f**k all to NI.
So could these well of people who could be pensioners who have paid a higher rate of tax and Ni all their working life's be the ones who "don't contribute anything" when in fact they could have paid more that the feckless ever pay in a lifetime of wasted existence.
And before you get on your high horse fella I'm not talking about the genuinely needy.
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Phil.
It is the biggest myth in politics that the last Labour Govt had its good times based on unsustainable borrowing. It's absolutely and demonstrably untrue. Before the Global Financial Crisis hit, Govt debt under Labour was less than it had been under Thatcher and Major. It was only when the global crisis hit that debt went up. As it should.
You can and SHOULD use Government borrowing to pull yourself out of a recession. That has been textbook economic theory for 90 years. Industry is on its knees and can't invest. People get laid off. So they cut back their expenditure. So there's even less demand for products. So Industry gets even more hammered. Vicious circle. The solution is that Govt should borrow money and pour it into the economy to get the motor firing again. Govt debt incurred doing this doesn't matter. The crucial thing is to get the economy back on its feet. THEN Govt can reduce spending and get higher tax income, reducing the debt over decades.
Cameron was taught that at Cambridge. He chose to ignore it when the Global Financial Crisis occurred, because he saw beating Labour up over the debt that resulted was his path to No10.
It was truly that opportunistic.
The economics profession is pretty much unified in agreeing that the Austerity that Cameron and Osborne brought in was a catastrophe. It depressed economic growth for years. It depressed wages for over a decade. Ironically, the annoyance and bitterness it caused led directly to the rise of Farage (who did what right wing demagogues have done in every downturn - told people it was foreigners to blame). That resulted in the Brexit vote and the end of Cameron's career. But the permanent economic damage had already been done. By a man who consciously went against everything he'd been educated to do, to advance his own career. It's no exaggeration to say that we have lost something up to £1trn of economic activity, directly because of that decision.
Would this be the same labour government who saddles us, our kids and their kids with a lifetimes subscription to "PFI"
If your saying that is good governance then god help this country because its a toss up between the feckless and the Fu8king liars, what a choice to have,
No wonder your buddy did one to Aus, why is he still spouting crap here??
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Billy I haven’t got a clue what he studied. I think I’m being lost in translation
I was saying let’s just agree to disagree about this subject
I’m sure there’ll be tunings we might agree on at some point
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DD
This is feeling like being cornered by the golf club bore.
1) Did I agree with PFI? No.
2) Is that remotely as big a mistake of economic policy as Austerity? No. It'slike comparing burning your finger to shooting your kneecaps off.
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I love the level of political argument from people on the right.
1) You have no evidence to back up what you're saying. So I'm not going to believe you.
2) Ok you have provided evidence but you're just cherry picking to suit your argument. So I'm not going to believe you.
3) It's not my job to provide counter evidence. I'm going to trust my instinct that you're wrong and not believe you.
4) Whatever you say, Labour always spends other people's money, so there.
5) Why don't you just go and live in Russia?
Think we've had this conversation before fella,
In not on the right or of the right, i like most in the country will do all for my family in the first instance and then i will look after the needy,
What i wont do is give any truck to lefty ideals that bankrupt the nation, kill all aspiring peoples wishes and ideals for the sake of wanting to be a right on lefty,
Most people just want to get on with their life's made very much harder by pathetic governments from both ends of the political spectrum.
To me theirs not a great deal between a lying scumbag who robs you blind and spends your hard earned on his cronies to another scumbag who bleats he will not rob you but does just the same and then pretends to give it to the poor, needy and also the feckless.
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And with that, I'm bowing out of this discussion BB. It had the possibility of being an intelligent exchange but you've turned it into Labour Insult Bingo.
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DD
This is feeling like being cornered by the golf club bore.
Now you have made me chuckle, you've been doing that for the last 20 years, carry on BST.
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No offence taken I hope.
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No offence taken I hope.
None taken here.
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No tax income can be red circled.
It's being done this way because the key Tory constituency (well off people who don't work) contribute precisely f**k all to NI.
So could these well of people who could be pensioners who have paid a higher rate of tax and Ni all their working life's be the ones who "don't contribute anything" when in fact they could have paid more that the feckless ever pay in a lifetime of wasted existence.
And before you get on your high horse fella I'm not talking about the genuinely needy.
Have I mentioned how much he despises pensioners.
I certainly paid more than my fair share of 40% income tax but he thinks I shouldn’t get my pension.
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I actually think I will be robbed of any pension from the state when I retire, the qualifying date is going to rise again shortly, at this rate if we don’t get it before we leave this place we will be swindled out of it by a greedy Tory party that will just nick it or a dodgy Labour Party that will means test you out of it if you earn more then 10bob a week.
I suppose they can then give it to someone who really needs it, no one cares how much you contributed during your lifetime of graft. This is what we all have to look forward to with either of these political parties, hardly a shoot of green grass between them.
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I actually think I will be robbed of any pension from the state when I retire, the qualifying date is going to rise again shortly, at this rate if we don’t get it before we leave this place we will be swindled out of it by a greedy Tory party that will just nick it or a dodgy Labour Party that will means test you out of it if you earn more then 10bob a week.
I suppose they can then give it to someone who really needs it, no one cares how much you contributed during your lifetime of graft. This is what we all have to look forward to with either of these political parties, hardly a shoot of green grass between them.
The tory party is renowned for looking after its own so some will be in luck, or you could register with OOB Oligarchs of Britain and out your hand up for a hand out and a contract.
''I will help with costs where I can, says Chancellor Rishi Sunak''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60812549
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Don't you worry your curly haired head about it Sydders, just remember you are an Aussie now! And a danger to yourself and small pets!
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Don't you worry your curly haired head about it Sydders, just remember you are an Aussie now! And a danger to yourself and small pets!
So now you have read Sunak's face palm, who was correct the spot from sprot or Sydders?
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I actually think I will be robbed of any pension from the state when I retire, the qualifying date is going to rise again shortly, at this rate if we don’t get it before we leave this place we will be swindled out of it by a greedy Tory party that will just nick it or a dodgy Labour Party that will means test you out of it if you earn more then 10bob a week.
I suppose they can then give it to someone who really needs it, no one cares how much you contributed during your lifetime of graft. This is what we all have to look forward to with either of these political parties, hardly a shoot of green grass between them.
The tory party is renowned for looking after its own so some will be in luck, or you could register with OOB Oligarchs of Britain and out your hand up for a hand out and a contract.
''I will help with costs where I can, says Chancellor Rishi Sunak''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60812549
No worries here buddy i can fend for myself with out Sunak' help
I'm sure you could trawl the Aussie rags and register for "expats with borderline tendencies missing the rain in blighty" you could finally be the star turn.
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https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/feb/28/lismore-flooding-before-and-after-pictures-show-the-full-scale-of-disaster