Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: GazLaz on April 19, 2022, 11:16:18 am
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Now feels like the perfect time for a revolution at this football club. A complete overhaul of what the clubs core principles are; a re-wire of how it thinks and a complete redirection on how it operates. There aren’t too many occasions throughout the lifecycle of a club where revolution feels like a better option than good solid evolution BUT this certainly feels like one of them.
Football and the way it is monitored and understood is going to change dramatically over the next 10-15 years (it’s already well under way). Principles and processes that are in place at clubs like RB Leipzig, Liverpool, Brighton and Brentford are eventually going to filter throughout the leagues as the price of data and the ability access infrastructure through third parties etc becomes easier and cheaper.
Some clubs will react quicker than others. MK Dons are an obvious example of a club that have already taken this way of working on board and it’s now starting to bear fruit. Those that adapt the quickest and smartest will have a pretty big operating advantage over the others.
It is going to eventually happen everywhere, and when it does we will regret not leading on this in 2022.
In two or three years time we will be back around to this point again. Looking for answers as to why we can’t compete at the level we think we should be at, and all this after spending hundreds of thousands more on infrastructure and support staff.
It feels to me as if we are going to spend a (relative) lot of money just to get up to a level of professionalism and organisation off the pitch which could still classify as average at best for a club our size. The remit for any restructure now HAS to be how can we find ways to do things differently to other clubs to gain an advantage. If we continue to TRY and do things the same way as everyone else, just maybe slightly better than what we are at present, we can’t compete with clubs with more money than us, it’s just impossible long term.
If you don’t have the resources to compete the only way to have any chance is to be smarter and I honestly don’t see how any edge can be gained with the though processes the club uses at the minute. Those thought processes will manifest into appointing whoever gets the HoFO role and it’s likely to end up another poor decision as the recognition that real change is needed just isn’t there.
In a nutshell, you cannot fully rectify what is wrong until you understand what is wrong and why it’s wrong. You can apply another sticking plaster, ie appointing an exceptional manager in McCann but the cracks will appear again when they move on and the pressure taps are turned up again.
We could bring in Mark Weaver as DoFO next season and do ok when we will have one of the best budgets in the division. At some point in the next few year the pressure taps will get get cranked up again and the cracks will open back up wider than ever.
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You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season.
Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.
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You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season.
Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.
The spiralling out of control started prior to this season.
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Gaz.
Agree 100%. Clubs that don't learn, and learn quickly how to use data analytics to maximise their effectiveness will rapidly be displaced by smarter clubs. Of course money will always matter, but if you want to be successful in future, that has to be allied to a more intelligent use of data.
My concern is that our club gives every impression of being 100% on the wrong side of this subject.
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It’s an excellent post Gaz and I agree we need to embrace anything that can give us an edge
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You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season. Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.
Maybe we wouldn't have had this conversation THIS close season. But we'd have been having it at some point in the 2020s. Maybe better sooner rather than later.
In this light, the DoFO role is absolutely fundamental. Bring in a dinosaur with 20th century thinking and we might see a short term improvement. But long term, we need a totally different mindset.
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I notice Canadian Rover has posted about the club being open, it would be great to hear GMc vision for the future and where he sees data analytics-he’s a young coach/manager so you would expect him to have his finger on the pulse
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You can have all the data in the world, but when half of your first team gets crocked then it becomes a complete waste of time and money.
I’d love to see how MK would have faired this season with their “system” and injuries of the amount rovers have suffered.
I’m not disagreeing with your point. Merely adding context to our woes this season. Had we had a fully fit first team from the off, and for the majority of the season, we would not be having these sorts of conversations.
Maybe we wouldn't have had this conversation THIS close season. But we'd have been having it at some point in the 2020s. Maybe better sooner rather than later.
In this light, the DoFO role is absolutely fundamental. Bring in a dinosaur with 20th century thinking and we might see a short term improvement. But long term, we need a totally different mindset.
I.e. the people wanting a football manager like Warnock for that role. It's insane.
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100% agree.
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Whilst I agree with you NR, the cracks would still be there under the surface. It is no coincidence that 3 managers have walked out on the Rovers and I would assume they all left giving their reasons, other than to better themselves. It is these 3 that the Rovers should be having conversations with, asking them what is the basic problem with the way the club is run. I am sure none of them want the club to keep on failing, especially as they may require to return when they in turn are unemployed. Then perhaps the revolution can start.
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Mostly agree but data isn't everything and actually we should not forget there's many equal if not more important parts to the cycle than data.
When everyone has access to the same data (which will happen) there needs to be many other factors that can create a USP.
So yes, take it forward to keep up, but actually don't lose sight of everything else and i feel that's the weakness we have, we focus on one or two things not the big picture.
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Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.
My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?
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Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.
My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?
I’ve never spoken to the Chairman and he’s the person that makes the decisions regarding the direction of travel football wise. I’m pretty sure he’s not on the same page as myself.
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Whilst I agree with you NR, the cracks would still be there under the surface. It is no coincidence that 3 managers have walked out on the Rovers and I would assume they all left giving their reasons, other than to better themselves. It is these 3 that the Rovers should be having conversations with, asking them what is the basic problem with the way the club is run. I am sure none of them want the club to keep on failing, especially as they may require to return when they in turn are unemployed. Then perhaps the revolution can start.
I suspect Moore and Mcann leaving was mainly down to a fatter wage packet and the Kudos/ career progression of going to a bigger club.
Nowt to do with how drfc is run as a club.
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Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.
My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?
I’ve never spoken to the Chairman and he’s the person that makes the decisions regarding the direction of travel football wise. I’m pretty sure he’s not on the same page as myself.
It's a shame to hear. Hopefully this relegation will lead to more of a willingness to embrace new ideas.
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I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.
Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?
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Gaz maybe SM can ask the question/s failing that whenever I have e mailed Gavin I’ve received a reply.
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Great post Gaz.
I do think most Rovers fans would be open to listening to what a plan is. But there must be a plan for years now we have been operating blindly somewhat on the football path. The Club Doncaster thing is brilliant; we need to keep the whole of the club within some of the same guidance and expertise.
For me the chairman Mr Blunt has failed us on the footballing front. That's not to say he isn't brilliant or astute by any means - we just haven't seen proof of this ever.
The youth set up needs re-organizing and changing as well as development squads; and "reserve team football" a revolution as you said.
Loan signings need to be brought in to supplement the team and not to be the focus of the team in many ways. Young forwards and midfielders being relied upon to carry the team was always a disaster waiting to happen.
But most of all; and I say this above the managerial appointment/contract/position is the recruitment policy needs to be addressed and someone needs to be accountable. Way too many failings this season and previously on that front. As GMC said the way to change a club is to change the personnel.
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There are only two ways to develop/progress as a football club. You can develop your own players - or you can buy them from another club that has developed them. That's as true now as it was 100 years ago.
How you indentify future players is neither here nor there - there are only a certain number of quality players and its a competitive market - so thats a case of funding - how much are you prepared to pay.
Ever since they have been here these particular owners have always said they wish Rovers to be a community club and to develop that community. That could be why they are so keen to promote from within.
If you are calling for all youth development and community work to stop - and all funding to be targeted towards the first team - then I doubt that will happen under these owners.
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Brentford started looked for foreign talent when they adopted their recruitment strategy. This is because they believe that local talents are generally inflated in the English football player market. They have made some very savvy uk based purchase too.
They bought cheap unknowns and turned them into valuable assets.
£151 million profit in last 6 years from player transfers .
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Wilts, I don’t think anyone has suggested what you’ve said. What was said is that the youth set-up needs changing. Ever since we dropped the U23’s, we lost the development route for our own good young players. There simply has to be a clear path that gives every ‘promising’ young player every chance to make a success with us. Throwing young u18 players in the deep end, more often than not, means most of them will drown! Either have a path or don’t have a youth set-up at all.
And that’s only one small issue re what’s wrong. There has been some appalling decisions over the last few seasons.
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Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.
My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?
I also remember a similar post from Gaz giving reasons why we might struggle this season. It would be interesting to revisit it.
Really good thread and whilst I’m not convinced data and stats are everything, it feels obvious that we as a club are a bit prehistoric behind the scenes.
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Gaz, you clearly know your stuff and work in the industry as well. I remember a similar rallying post from you this time last year expressing your concerns and what needed to be done, and if I were to find it and read it now I'm sure it would read prophetically as per our current situation as a club.
My question is - have you ever approached the club or vice versa regarding your ideas and knowledge? I'm sure if the club were willing to let you, you'd be open to sharing your insights with them?
I also remember a similar post from Gaz giving reasons why we might struggle this season. It would be interesting to revisit it.
Really good thread and whilst I’m not convinced data and stats are everything, it feels obvious that we as a club are a bit prehistoric behind the scenes.
Here it is. Difficult to argue that it covers quite a few aspects of what has transpired to go wrong since: https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=281121.msg1056827#msg1056827
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I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.
Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?
I believe that we have an analytics man coming to join us in the summer.
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Gaz maybe SM can ask the question/s failing that whenever I have e mailed Gavin I’ve received a reply.
Agreed that SM would be the ideal person to initially broach this with club and maybe get a meeting set up to look at your thoughts Gaz!
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I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.
Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?
I believe that we have an analytics man coming to join us in the summer.
An analist?
*deliberate mis spelling*
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Managers left for bigger club’s, that isn’t a surprise, what is, is that we had nobody in mind to succeed and went down the cheap route. It’s worth paying a good wage for a good manager, it’s the most important position at the club.
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Data analytics have been used at the club to sign some of the players we have at the club, and has been for quite a while, certainly since Darren Ferguson it has been used for first team players.
As for our own games it is used even for youth team stats. The revolution has started by the way, probably not in the way some think it should, that's just tough, but it has started.
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The data that is important is goal scorer, assists, goals conceded and clean sheets in my book. Most clubs are too reliant on them.
Mentality, attitude, playing under pressure, work rate, technique, personal background. Not all these can be measured with stats.
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The data that is important is goal scorer, assists, goals conceded and clean sheets in my book. Most clubs are too reliant on them.
Mentality, attitude, playing under pressure, work rate, technique, personal background. Not all these can be measured with stats.
Data is a tool to aid better decision making as opposed to actually making the final decision. All the unquantifiables you mention are important also.
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What has amazed me about some of the recent recruits and loanees is the lack of basic competence and/or physicality to be competitive, never mind the skills required to deliver the possession blueprint-in some cases I cant believe that we saw them play before we signed them
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…….and yet we are told that McSheff had the final say about whether we signed them or not.
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I'd be interested to see Jordi Hiwulas stats prior to this season they used. I imagine everything ticked boxes, most of us thought great signing. Turned out awful.
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What has amazed me about some of the recent recruits and loanees is the lack of basic competence and/or physicality to be competitive, never mind the skills required to deliver the possession blueprint-in some cases I cant believe that we saw them play before we signed them
I must admit, watching this side throughout the season has had me thinking the same thing.
I can't ever remember a Rovers side(outside of the 97/98 debacle)that i thought was as slow witted and "not on it" as this current side, and i include the 8 players brought in in Jan. the fact we brought in players who were just not ready to play football to me seems the opposite to everything you are trying to achieve. The fitness and conditioning work just looked like it had never taken place, you can excuse some injuries and lack of fitness in some case but the whole bloody squad looked way down on acceptable levels when compared with our opponents.
We have looked heavy legged and one paced all season, the amount of times i noticed the side blowing out of its rear orifice after 65 mins was too much too often. the amount of times players came back too early and relapsed was chronic.We just never seemed to get on top of this and get going.
I'm hoping that this angle along with some of the others mentioned get looked into very seriously because regardless of any analytics you want to use to assist, if the team are not fit then its all for nothing.
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Havn’t we had clarity about ‘the selection committee’?
Younger is Talent Identification
The rest are The manager, Copps and CEO?
This needs scrapping for starters, if this season is anything to go by. I question whether Younger knows anything about talent; as far as Copps role, I would assume he looks into their mindset (based on what we’ve got, I’d question whether he was actually doing that!); the manager’s performance in approving several of his January incomings does not bode well, IF the Board do give him the summer. The CEO can only be making sure the wages fit what budget is available.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Now, who (within that quartet) are looking at the strategy of the Club such that the new lads will indeed put us in a good place going forward? Because there’s been very little strategising as far as I can make out. The new ‘system’ of picking players by committee has proven to be part of the shambles that we find ourselves in.
Back to Gazlaz’s revolution - far more interesting.
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Havn’t we had clarity about ‘the selection committee’?
Younger is Talent Identification
Just hold that thought for another week or so.
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Havn’t we had clarity about ‘the selection committee’?
Younger is Talent Identification
The rest are The manager, Copps and CEO?
This needs scrapping for starters, if this season is anything to go by. I question whether Younger knows anything about talent; as far as Copps role, I would assume he looks into their mindset (based on what we’ve got, I’d question whether he was actually doing that!); the manager’s performance in approving several of his January incomings does not bode well, IF the Board do give him the summer. The CEO can only be making sure the wages fit what budget is available.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Now, who (within that quartet) are looking at the strategy of the Club such that the new lads will indeed put us in a good place going forward? Because there’s been very little strategising as far as I can make out. The new ‘system’ of picking players by committee has proven to be part of the shambles that we find ourselves in.
Back to Gazlaz’s revolution - far more interesting.
No, the Chairman chairs that committee and signs everything off!!
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Who negotiates the deals and "gets them over the line?" Or who has the say on delaying aka Grigg/OBrien mix ups?
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Thanks for the correction, I knew one of the 3 must be involved and I certainly didn’t think it would be Mr Bramall.
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SCWK
Here's a really simple example of how data is used (and has been used for decades) in cricket.
Assume you have two bowlers. One with an average strike rate of one wicket every 20 balls and 20 runs per wicket. The other with a strike rate of 40 and an average of 40 runs per wicket.
You're always going to choose the first one over the second one, right?
But what if the first one is a seam bowler and the second is an out and out pace bowler. And they usually play on soggy, grassy wickets that aid seamers and kill fast bowlers.
Who do you pick if you're playing on a grassless, bone hard wicket?
To answer that, you want to dig into the data and see what their records are like on those wickets.
Cricketers and selectors have known for decades that having or not having that data is absolutely crucial.
And that's just an almost trivially simple example. It's proven beyond argument that it's possible to optimise your squad blend, playing style and tactics by understanding the detail of where the strengths and weaknesses of players are. You don't play a hard pressing game if your players have fitness stats 5% worse than average. You don't make that sort of decision on gut instinct. You do it by reference to cold figures.
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SCWK mentions assists, that can be a very misleading stat to use. If one team has a brilliant finisher then players behind him will get more assists then a team with a really poor finisher up front but a more creative player behind him. An example of that is Raphina has 3 assists this season, Gabriel Jesus has 7 assists, that doesn't mean Jesus is better at creating chances than Raphina, more that Jesus has better players round him to finish those chances... And that's why people created xA (Expected Assists), which measures the quality of chances created. xA puts Raphina around 7 and Jesus around 4ish... So if I was looking at either of them to sign (different kind of players, I know), then I wouldn't go on assists.
Another example of when to use data is when you create a lot of chances in certain areas but are poor at finishing them, say if we get the ball a lot around the right of the 12yd box but never score then we should use tracking data to generate a list of the best finishers in that area, that's what Norwich did when they signed Pukki and he's been quality for them.
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I’m not saying don’t use them, but don’t blindly follow them. There doesn’t seem to have been much digging into player personalities etc.
It seems like they’ve flagged players up and just signed them. Look at the mentality of some of our signings.
They haven’t handled the pressure of relegation. Mental strength in dealing with pressure at crucial times can be the difference. Yes narrow them down with stats but don’t just use figures and graphs to decide who’s worth signing.
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Havn’t we had clarity about ‘the selection committee’?
Younger is Talent Identification
The rest are The manager, Copps and CEO?
This needs scrapping for starters, if this season is anything to go by. I question whether Younger knows anything about talent; as far as Copps role, I would assume he looks into their mindset (based on what we’ve got, I’d question whether he was actually doing that!); the manager’s performance in approving several of his January incomings does not bode well, IF the Board do give him the summer. The CEO can only be making sure the wages fit what budget is available.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Now, who (within that quartet) are looking at the strategy of the Club such that the new lads will indeed put us in a good place going forward? Because there’s been very little strategising as far as I can make out. The new ‘system’ of picking players by committee has proven to be part of the shambles that we find ourselves in.
Back to Gazlaz’s revolution - far more interesting.
No, the Chairman chairs that committee and signs everything off!!
SM -
Who negotiates the deals and "gets them over the line?" Or who has the say on delaying aka Grigg/OBrien mix ups?
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
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Reacting to data can cost money if it shows a problem with the components, and cheap replacements will unlikely solve the issue.
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As BB says if the data is good on players then they may cost money to get them in. If the talent identification manager picks out players using data then looking at the cost to bring them in may be to much. Whatever system we have used the level of player whether permanent or loan as fallen. This must be down to cost we can only bring in players that fit our criteria and money we pay. We have lost ambitious managers because of that. Who have moved on and proved they can manage league 1 sides and gain promotion. I wonder what data indicates on players level to their cost.
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Havn’t we had clarity about ‘the selection committee’?
Younger is Talent Identification
The rest are The manager, Copps and CEO?
This needs scrapping for starters, if this season is anything to go by. I question whether Younger knows anything about talent; as far as Copps role, I would assume he looks into their mindset (based on what we’ve got, I’d question whether he was actually doing that!); the manager’s performance in approving several of his January incomings does not bode well, IF the Board do give him the summer. The CEO can only be making sure the wages fit what budget is available.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Now, who (within that quartet) are looking at the strategy of the Club such that the new lads will indeed put us in a good place going forward? Because there’s been very little strategising as far as I can make out. The new ‘system’ of picking players by committee has proven to be part of the shambles that we find ourselves in.
Back to Gazlaz’s revolution - far more interesting.
No, the Chairman chairs that committee and signs everything off!!
SM -
Who negotiates the deals and "gets them over the line?" Or who has the say on delaying aka Grigg/OBrien mix ups?
A bit of a loaded question CR? Why not state what you really want me to say.
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
Let’s be straight. Every club used data. Whoever uses it best has the advantage. Most clubs use it at face value (dangerous) and think they are being smart and others pay lip service to it and when it comes down to making big decisions they revert to type.
If you have systems in place it can create accountability, you can see how and when you go wrong clearly and adjust the way you work.
“Football” people are reluctant to embrace it fully because then they would feel out of control. The non ex players/ managers are the ones having the real success running football clubs now.
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Havn’t we had clarity about ‘the selection committee’?
Younger is Talent Identification
The rest are The manager, Copps and CEO?
This needs scrapping for starters, if this season is anything to go by. I question whether Younger knows anything about talent; as far as Copps role, I would assume he looks into their mindset (based on what we’ve got, I’d question whether he was actually doing that!); the manager’s performance in approving several of his January incomings does not bode well, IF the Board do give him the summer. The CEO can only be making sure the wages fit what budget is available.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Now, who (within that quartet) are looking at the strategy of the Club such that the new lads will indeed put us in a good place going forward? Because there’s been very little strategising as far as I can make out. The new ‘system’ of picking players by committee has proven to be part of the shambles that we find ourselves in.
Back to Gazlaz’s revolution - far more interesting.
No, the Chairman chairs that committee and signs everything off!!
SM -
Who negotiates the deals and "gets them over the line?" Or who has the say on delaying aka Grigg/OBrien mix ups?
A bit of a loaded question CR? Why not state what you really want me to say.
Who's accountable for transfers?
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Havn’t we had clarity about ‘the selection committee’?
Younger is Talent Identification
The rest are The manager, Copps and CEO?
This needs scrapping for starters, if this season is anything to go by. I question whether Younger knows anything about talent; as far as Copps role, I would assume he looks into their mindset (based on what we’ve got, I’d question whether he was actually doing that!); the manager’s performance in approving several of his January incomings does not bode well, IF the Board do give him the summer. The CEO can only be making sure the wages fit what budget is available.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s how I see it.
Now, who (within that quartet) are looking at the strategy of the Club such that the new lads will indeed put us in a good place going forward? Because there’s been very little strategising as far as I can make out. The new ‘system’ of picking players by committee has proven to be part of the shambles that we find ourselves in.
Back to Gazlaz’s revolution - far more interesting.
No, the Chairman chairs that committee and signs everything off!!
SM -
Who negotiates the deals and "gets them over the line?" Or who has the say on delaying aka Grigg/OBrien mix ups?
A bit of a loaded question CR? Why not state what you really want me to say.
Who's accountable for transfers?
The buck stops with the Chairman.
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
Let’s be straight. Every club used data. Whoever uses it best has the advantage. Most clubs use it at face value (dangerous) and think they are being smart and others pay lip service to it and when it comes down to making big decisions they revert to type.
If you have systems in place it can create accountability, you can see how and when you go wrong clearly and adjust the way you work.
“Football” people are reluctant to embrace it fully because then they would feel out of control. The non ex players/ managers are the ones having the real success running football clubs now.
That's a very interesting point, that football people are the ones who would be reluctant.
I know Gavin would give this his support because its something that has cropped up in conversation a few times. I can't speak for DB though, I've not discussed football issues with him as such.
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
Let’s be straight. Every club used data. Whoever uses it best has the advantage. Most clubs use it at face value (dangerous) and think they are being smart and others pay lip service to it and when it comes down to making big decisions they revert to type.
If you have systems in place it can create accountability, you can see how and when you go wrong clearly and adjust the way you work.
“Football” people are reluctant to embrace it fully because then they would feel out of control. The non ex players/ managers are the ones having the real success running football clubs now.
That's a very interesting point, that football people are the ones who would be reluctant.
I know Gavin would give this his support because its something that has cropped up in conversation a few times. I can't speak for DB though, I've not discussed football issues with him as such.
If David Blunt is in charge of the football side of the club and Gavin Baldwin has nothing to do with it, why haven’t you discussed football issues with Blunt? Surely that’s who the supporters representative should be speaking to?
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
Let’s be straight. Every club used data. Whoever uses it best has the advantage. Most clubs use it at face value (dangerous) and think they are being smart and others pay lip service to it and when it comes down to making big decisions they revert to type.
If you have systems in place it can create accountability, you can see how and when you go wrong clearly and adjust the way you work.
“Football” people are reluctant to embrace it fully because then they would feel out of control. The non ex players/ managers are the ones having the real success running football clubs now.
That's a very interesting point, that football people are the ones who would be reluctant.
I know Gavin would give this his support because its something that has cropped up in conversation a few times. I can't speak for DB though, I've not discussed football issues with him as such.
If David Blunt is in charge of the football side of the club and Gavin Baldwin has nothing to do with it, why haven’t you discussed football issues with Blunt? Surely that’s who the supporters representative should be speaking to?
You think I should be discussing football issues?
A couple of things;
1) I'm not the only supporter rep.
2) Football issues are NOT our area of responsibility.
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
Let’s be straight. Every club used data. Whoever uses it best has the advantage. Most clubs use it at face value (dangerous) and think they are being smart and others pay lip service to it and when it comes down to making big decisions they revert to type.
If you have systems in place it can create accountability, you can see how and when you go wrong clearly and adjust the way you work.
“Football” people are reluctant to embrace it fully because then they would feel out of control. The non ex players/ managers are the ones having the real success running football clubs now.
That's a very interesting point, that football people are the ones who would be reluctant.
I know Gavin would give this his support because its something that has cropped up in conversation a few times. I can't speak for DB though, I've not discussed football issues with him as such.
If David Blunt is in charge of the football side of the club and Gavin Baldwin has nothing to do with it, why haven’t you discussed football issues with Blunt? Surely that’s who the supporters representative should be speaking to?
You think I should be discussing football issues?
A couple of things;
1) I'm not the only supporter rep.
2) Football issues are NOT our area of responsibility.
Yet you’ve discussed football issues with Gavin Baldwin?
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And here we go full circle to SM having nto explain his remit again
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And here we go full circle to SM having to explain his remit again
Yeah...let's not make this a SM issue!! He's not the club, he's a fan, a link and a great one to have here!
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
Let’s be straight. Every club used data. Whoever uses it best has the advantage. Most clubs use it at face value (dangerous) and think they are being smart and others pay lip service to it and when it comes down to making big decisions they revert to type.
If you have systems in place it can create accountability, you can see how and when you go wrong clearly and adjust the way you work.
“Football” people are reluctant to embrace it fully because then they would feel out of control. The non ex players/ managers are the ones having the real success running football clubs now.
That's a very interesting point, that football people are the ones who would be reluctant.
I know Gavin would give this his support because its something that has cropped up in conversation a few times. I can't speak for DB though, I've not discussed football issues with him as such.
If David Blunt is in charge of the football side of the club and Gavin Baldwin has nothing to do with it, why haven’t you discussed football issues with Blunt? Surely that’s who the supporters representative should be speaking to?
You think I should be discussing football issues?
A couple of things;
1) I'm not the only supporter rep.
2) Football issues are NOT our area of responsibility.
Yet you’ve discussed football issues with Gavin Baldwin?
Yes of course I do, but its not an official request or part of my remit. Yes, we ask for an understanding of where the club is going and, just like other supporters, we show a great deal of interest. General interest is good to know so we can relay some of that back, but what happens on the pitch can't be affected by us and nor should it be.
I can request changes to season ticket pricing, stewarding issues, and activities off the pitch, etc. But footballing issues, what happens on that green stuff, isn't part of it.
And even if it was, who's opinion would I represent? None of you can agree from one Saturday to the next, so what would you expect me to suggest?
I know you like to be contrary to all my posts Nick, but this is a weird one, even for you.
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Well put together and totally agree with everything
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I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.
Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?
I'd just like to add that both Gaz and myself met up with Gavin some months ago and explored lots of these topics and subject areas. So, its fair to say that Gavin has been looking at changing the structure and the mode of thinking around the club.
I'm sure more of that will become apparent once changes have been implemented.
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Blunt is the key to everything. He needs to change or consider his position. Just my opinion
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The data analyst’s must be good at their jobs, ours obviously haven’t been to bring up so many dud signings.
Supporters rep’s seem to love having the inside info and not being able to share it. But when questioned on what they do, do, they don’t like it.
I don’t see any representation of our fans coming from those who have been in the job.
Devaluing fellow supporters opinions as though they are better than others. A reality check is needed. Remember what you are there for and it’s not yourself.
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I think things like this need to be put to the club. It has been clear for a while that we are lagging far behind on the data/analytics front which is starting to take over the sport. Appointments like Graham Younger proved that we aren't where we need to be.
Does SM or anyone know if there is any scope to get this point made to Baldwin or Blunt?
I'd just like to add that both Gaz and myself met up with Gavin some months ago and explored lots of these topics and subject areas. So, its fair to say that Gavin has been looking at changing the structure and the mode of thinking around the club.
I'm sure more of that will become apparent once changes have been implemented.
Gavin was very confident in Wellens and the signings made yet it didn’t take long before he was denying a relegation threat . So when it began to turn sour he then gave the same support of confidence to McSheffrey, Gavin to be sure didn’t fully for see how the season would end but results don’t lie Particularly after so many players being brought in .
The common denominator is that Gavin Baldwin was assured that both managers knew their own minds and that their player choices were sound . So what actually happened? Who’s judgment was a fault and how will this be rectified next season . With another exodus players about to be confirmed , who’s judgment will be relying on and is next seat going to be another consolation one !!!
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Seems to me that as long as everyone has some individual to blame and they go everything will be ok.
The main contributors to our demise are the players themselves, not many can be proud of their efforts for the last eighteen months for whatever reason, Smith, Olowu, and Rowe about the only ones who have looked interested in performing and looking like they care, add Bostock to them when he plays.
We have as a whole club at first team level been poor for eighteen months, and three managers and support staff have tried everything to arrest the slide with no success.
There is one constant, and that is a number of players not being good enough, bothered enough, and care enough to be better, and we have teams with smaller budgets above us in the table who get those things right.
There is only one answer and that is a big reset in the playing staff, and if the present management recognise that, which I think they do, then they have the inside information of the club and therefore are in the best position to put things right.
Anybody else will be just starting from cold again and stuck with players he will not want or know.
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The new person to blame soon will be
coppinger the head of football.
Poison chalice.
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The data analyst’s must be good at their jobs, ours obviously haven’t been to bring up so many dud signings.
Supporters rep’s seem to love having the inside info and not being able to share it. But when questioned on what they do, do, they don’t like it.
I don’t see any representation of our fans coming from those who have been in the job.
Devaluing fellow supporters opinions as though they are better than others. A reality check is needed. Remember what you are there for and it’s not yourself.
I think you might be a tad jealous of that second paragraph
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The data analyst’s must be good at their jobs, ours obviously haven’t been to bring up so many dud signings.
Supporters rep’s seem to love having the inside info and not being able to share it. But when questioned on what they do, do, they don’t like it.
I don’t see any representation of our fans coming from those who have been in the job.
Devaluing fellow supporters opinions as though they are better than others. A reality check is needed. Remember what you are there for and it’s not yourself.
You write some real tosh at times.
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I don’t.
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SWCK
No-one is saying to use them blindly. The point is that if you don't use them intelligently and other clubs do, you're immediately at a disadvantage.
If you want to get the most efficiency out of your car, you'd be daft to ignore the trip computer data. That doesn't mean you don't have to use the steering wheel as well while you're driving.
Let’s be straight. Every club used data. Whoever uses it best has the advantage. Most clubs use it at face value (dangerous) and think they are being smart and others pay lip service to it and when it comes down to making big decisions they revert to type.
If you have systems in place it can create accountability, you can see how and when you go wrong clearly and adjust the way you work.
“Football” people are reluctant to embrace it fully because then they would feel out of control. The non ex players/ managers are the ones having the real success running football clubs now.
That's a very interesting point, that football people are the ones who would be reluctant.
I know Gavin would give this his support because its something that has cropped up in conversation a few times. I can't speak for DB though, I've not discussed football issues with him as such.
If David Blunt is in charge of the football side of the club and Gavin Baldwin has nothing to do with it, why haven’t you discussed football issues with Blunt? Surely that’s who the supporters representative should be speaking to?
You think I should be discussing football issues?
A couple of things;
1) I'm not the only supporter rep.
2) Football issues are NOT our area of responsibility.
Yet you’ve discussed football issues with Gavin Baldwin?
Yes of course I do, but its not an official request or part of my remit. Yes, we ask for an understanding of where the club is going and, just like other supporters, we show a great deal of interest. General interest is good to know so we can relay some of that back, but what happens on the pitch can't be affected by us and nor should it be.
I can request changes to season ticket pricing, stewarding issues, and activities off the pitch, etc. But footballing issues, what happens on that green stuff, isn't part of it.
And even if it was, who's opinion would I represent? None of you can agree from one Saturday to the next, so what would you expect me to suggest?
I know you like to be contrary to all my posts Nick, but this is a weird one, even for you.
I don’t think it’s about suggesting anything, it’s about getting some answers or at the very least something to relay back to the fans. I’m not someone who thinks there should be relentless press releases or that we should need to know the inner workings of the club but the last 18 months have been an absolute clusterf**k on that green stuff and we’ve heard next to nothing which is extremely frustrating.
My post was never intended as a personal slight against you or any other supporters representative, more a general thought that if David Blunt is in charge of the football side of things that I’m surprised that there’s never any dialogue between him and a supporters representative and surely there would be some value in having some?
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If Blunt has been making a lot of the football decisions, then he has failed in his job. You don’t have to sack him, give him another job more suited to his skills.
Football decisions need to be made by football men. Business may be his strong point.
The board needs to be quick thinking, innovative and right as much as possible.
If they aren’t going to sell, is it time to get younger, more enthusiastic representative’s to do those jobs?, so Terry etc can either step back from things and allow them to have a go.
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If someone knows otherwise then please correct me, but reading between the lines here it feels like we have a chairman who at best is stubborn and unwilling to engage with outside opinions, who is holding us back. But he's stays mostly in the shadows.
Then we have Gavin, who does an excellent job, seems very engaging and open to hearing ideas on how we could improve. But ultimately he doesn't make the final decision, the chairman does. But because he's the one in the public spotlight, he's taking the flak from a decent chunk of our supporters anyway.
So is the chairman the problem?
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Yes. In a word.
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If Blunt has been making a lot of the football decisions, then he has failed in his job. You don’t have to sack him, give him another job more suited to his skills.
Football decisions need to be made by football men. Business may be his strong point.
Apparently Blunt played profesional football for Bradford PA in the 60s
The board needs to be quick thinking, innovative and right as much as possible.
If they aren’t going to sell, is it time to get younger, more enthusiastic representative’s to do those jobs?, so Terry etc can either step back from things and allow them to have a go.
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If Blunt has been making a lot of the football decisions, then he has failed in his job. You don’t have to sack him, give him another job more suited to his skills.
Football decisions need to be made by football men. Business may be his strong point.
Apparently Blunt played profesional football for Bradford PA in the 60s
The board needs to be quick thinking, innovative and right as much as possible.
If they aren’t going to sell, is it time to get younger, more enthusiastic representative’s to do those jobs?, so Terry etc can either step back from things and allow them to have a go.
He played in just 2 games for BPA, that his full professional football career!!
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If Blunt has been making a lot of the football decisions, then he has failed in his job. You don’t have to sack him, give him another job more suited to his skills.
Football decisions need to be made by football men. Business may be his strong point.
Apparently Blunt played profesional football for Bradford PA in the 60s
The board needs to be quick thinking, innovative and right as much as possible.
If they aren’t going to sell, is it time to get younger, more enthusiastic representative’s to do those jobs?, so Terry etc can either step back from things and allow them to have a go.
He played in just 2 games for BPA, that his full professional football career!!
What exactly does he do? His communication with the fans this season other than an annual meet the fans event is pathetic. Anonymous and his defeaning silence demonstrates to the fans just how slow and lacking dynamism our recruitment has been, including the last Summer transfer window, plodding process to recruit managers etc etc. Time to go.
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If anything at least Baldwin comes out and gives an opinion. He gets stick but the chairman should really be talking to the press.
It has led unfairly at times, to him getting criticism. He has made a few boo boo’s but he’s human.
All I would say is tell the fans how it is and they will accept it as long as they know the situation.
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How many club Chairmen make public statements?
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Sounds like there's a few up for a public stoning on Saturday.
Owner, Chairman, CEO, Manager, Assistant, Physio, Club Doctor.
£10 a stone and all proceeds go towards summer signings!
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How much is a bag of gravel please.
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Del-boy is selling paving slabs I heard
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So the revolution has started!! We are likely announcing a HOF next week.
Oh...and guess what HOF there are NO plans for an U23s next season according to the interview with GMC. So there ya go HOF you've been told how the structure of the club is going to be from GMC.
Also Fej has just had surgery again - sounds like he's gonna be kept around like Joe Wright was until he recovers.
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To be fair to GM he’s only said there are no plans. It’s not his place to make those plans it’s the new guy job not his.
Would see it less that GM is dictating than the HoF doesn’t exist so there is no one to make the plan.
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No revolution today or tomorrow. Perhaps having a deep understanding of the club is valued more.
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No revolution - just evolution, of sorts.